From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Tuesday, April 29th. Salmon farming is not something most voters consider when they go to the polls on Election Day. But for Tasmanian voters, it is a huge and often divisive issue. Some Tasmanians believe the industry is polluting and unsustainable. Others see it as vital local commerce, which is keeping many rural Tasmanians employed. This debate about the environmental effects of salmon farming is playing out in an election where any other discussion of the environment is pretty much non-existent. Which is curious because energy policy goes hand in hand with the environment. And that is a decisive topic of this election. And it is also curious that the federal Environment minister, Tanya Plibersek, has been very quiet during this campaign. So to get us into all of this, we are going to talk to national and environment climate reporter Bianca Hall and energy correspondent Mike Foley. Welcome, guys.

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Tuesday, April 29th. Salmon farming is not something most voters consider when they go to the polls on Election Day. But for Tasmanian voters, it is a huge and often divisive issue. Some Tasmanians believe the industry is polluting and unsustainable. Others see it as vital local commerce, which is keeping many rural Tasmanians employed. This debate about the environmental effects of salmon farming is playing out in an election where any other discussion of the environment is pretty much non-existent. Which is curious because energy policy goes hand in hand with the environment. And that is a decisive topic of this election. And it is also curious that the federal Environment minister, Tanya Plibersek, has been very quiet during this campaign. So to get us into all of this, we are going to talk to national and environment climate reporter Bianca Hall and energy correspondent Mike Foley. Welcome, guys.

Hi, Jackie.

Hi, Jackie.

Hi. Good to be here.

Hi. Good to be here.

Bianca, you've just been in Tasmania on a tour of the important electorates there. Can you tell us why these Tasmanian seats are so pivotal for this election?

Bianca, you've just been in Tasmania on a tour of the important electorates there. Can you tell us why these Tasmanian seats are so pivotal for this election?

Sure. Well, I think Tasmanians would probably be forgiven for feeling like they get a bit forgotten during election campaigns and more broadly. But there's five seats in Tasmania and two depending on who you ask. Three are very much in play this election. So we've got bass in the north east corner of the state, Braddon along the west coast, Franklin on the southern tip, Clark, which covers Hobart and Lyons, which covers the centre of the state and the east coast. And two of these seats are pretty nominally safe. You've got Franklin, which is held by Fisheries Minister Julie Collins on 13.7%. Andrew Wilkie, The Independent, holds Clark with a commanding 20.8% margin, but two of them are ultra marginal and really in play. So Lyons is held by labor on just 0.9%, and Bridget Archer for the liberals holds bass on 1.4%. Even though Braddon is on 8% held by a Liberal MP, Gavin Pearce, who's retiring, labor absolutely thinks it's in with a shot in Braddon as well.

Sure. Well, I think Tasmanians would probably be forgiven for feeling like they get a bit forgotten during election campaigns and more broadly. But there's five seats in Tasmania and two depending on who you ask. Three are very much in play this election. So we've got bass in the north east corner of the state, Braddon along the west coast, Franklin on the southern tip, Clark, which covers Hobart and Lyons, which covers the centre of the state and the east coast. And two of these seats are pretty nominally safe. You've got Franklin, which is held by Fisheries Minister Julie Collins on 13.7%. Andrew Wilkie, The Independent, holds Clark with a commanding 20.8% margin, but two of them are ultra marginal and really in play. So Lyons is held by labor on just 0.9%, and Bridget Archer for the liberals holds bass on 1.4%. Even though Braddon is on 8% held by a Liberal MP, Gavin Pearce, who's retiring, labor absolutely thinks it's in with a shot in Braddon as well.

Okay, so some of these seats have very slim margins and salmon farming has become a very central election issue in Tasmania. Can you tell us why it's getting so much attention?

Okay, so some of these seats have very slim margins and salmon farming has become a very central election issue in Tasmania. Can you tell us why it's getting so much attention?

Well, I think the big thing obviously is the mortgage and skate. This is the prehistoric creature that is endangered, and it only occurs in waters where salmon farming is occurring around Macquarie Harbour.

Well, I think the big thing obviously is the mortgage and skate. This is the prehistoric creature that is endangered, and it only occurs in waters where salmon farming is occurring around Macquarie Harbour.

The number of Morgan skate in Macquarie Harbour halved in just seven years.

The number of Morgan skate in Macquarie Harbour halved in just seven years.

But there was a mass mortality event in summer this year that killed more than 1 million fish in the salmon farms. That was probably the thing that got most people's attention. Yeah, there was some pretty arresting footage of huge amounts of salmon dead inside the pens, which were taken by drone footage.

But there was a mass mortality event in summer this year that killed more than 1 million fish in the salmon farms. That was probably the thing that got most people's attention. Yeah, there was some pretty arresting footage of huge amounts of salmon dead inside the pens, which were taken by drone footage.

Live salmon being siphoned out of a pen and sealed away with dead salmon. It's a vision that's alarmed the RSPCA and now the animal welfare charity.

Live salmon being siphoned out of a pen and sealed away with dead salmon. It's a vision that's alarmed the RSPCA and now the animal welfare charity.

And there was also the pretty revolting prospect of chunks of salmon washing up on beaches surrounding the pens. People walking their dogs and coming across enormous chunks of salmon. Pretty, um, yeah, pretty gross stuff.

And there was also the pretty revolting prospect of chunks of salmon washing up on beaches surrounding the pens. People walking their dogs and coming across enormous chunks of salmon. Pretty, um, yeah, pretty gross stuff.

From oily chunks washing up on this very beach after an unprecedented mass salmon die off event.

From oily chunks washing up on this very beach after an unprecedented mass salmon die off event.

But, Mike, even before the sort of mass extinction event that we had, basically, there's a lot of people who think salmon farming is dirty and polluting the waters and that it's sort of almost like a battery hen type situation. Tell us a bit about the industry more generally.

But, Mike, even before the sort of mass extinction event that we had, basically, there's a lot of people who think salmon farming is dirty and polluting the waters and that it's sort of almost like a battery hen type situation. Tell us a bit about the industry more generally.

Well, the concerns with the industry around its environmental impact, Jackie, are about and Bianca will add to this, I'm sure, but it's about the impact that salmon, let's call it waste from the fish that they get fed. Fish food there they they eat that, they expel it. And that adds nutrients to the environment and especially into that one location of Macquarie Harbour. That nutrient imbalance is creating algal growth and an imbalance in the ecosystem that sucks oxygen out of the water, basically. And that's one impact that makes it harder for the Morgan skate to survive, makes it harder for them to breed as well. This is in very simple terms, and as Bianca rightly pointed out, it's so rare it's classed as critically endangered. Top red level alert of dropping off the face of the planet, that there's this open question about whether this practice in that one confined harbour can continue, or if the risk is so great that it's too much of a threat to the future survival of this prehistoric creature that occurs nowhere else in the world. More broadly than that, though, there is the same concerns, but spread out all across the let's call it an industrial precinct. I mean, is that an okay term to use, Bianca, where there's farming up and down the coast of Tassie as well, and there's similar issues about water degradation, let's call it around the salmon farms in the ocean environment as well, around the coast.

Well, the concerns with the industry around its environmental impact, Jackie, are about and Bianca will add to this, I'm sure, but it's about the impact that salmon, let's call it waste from the fish that they get fed. Fish food there they they eat that, they expel it. And that adds nutrients to the environment and especially into that one location of Macquarie Harbour. That nutrient imbalance is creating algal growth and an imbalance in the ecosystem that sucks oxygen out of the water, basically. And that's one impact that makes it harder for the Morgan skate to survive, makes it harder for them to breed as well. This is in very simple terms, and as Bianca rightly pointed out, it's so rare it's classed as critically endangered. Top red level alert of dropping off the face of the planet, that there's this open question about whether this practice in that one confined harbour can continue, or if the risk is so great that it's too much of a threat to the future survival of this prehistoric creature that occurs nowhere else in the world. More broadly than that, though, there is the same concerns, but spread out all across the let's call it an industrial precinct. I mean, is that an okay term to use, Bianca, where there's farming up and down the coast of Tassie as well, and there's similar issues about water degradation, let's call it around the salmon farms in the ocean environment as well, around the coast.

Yeah, I'd absolutely agree with the industrial descriptor. You know, going past these places on boats and we're on two boats. One of them was an enormous commercial cruise that went through Macquarie Harbour and up the Gordon River. But we also went on a smaller boat on the East coast and went pretty close to the pens. And they are enormous. They measure up to 240m in circumference. They're huge things and they go down about 20m underneath the surface of the water, so they're pretty tightly packed in there as they get bigger. Apparently you can get about 10,000 adult fish. I just say one thing. Just you're talking about the marine environment in Macquarie Harbour. Mike, it's really interesting because you've got the river water on top in Macquarie Harbour and then the saltwater underneath. And so the river water is really quite dense when you're on a boat and you're going through Macquarie Harbour, it looks like you're going through black tea. There's not a lot of oxygen in the top layer of the water, so it's actually more prone to a low oxygenation rates than normal ocean water. And every couple of years they get a big sort of swell of ocean water coming through underneath that oxygenates that marine environment. But in recent years they've been not having that kind of effect. So there is a trial underway of $37.5 million, Reoxygenation trial where the the federal government has, um, got essentially barges that are pumping oxygen into the marine environment trying to create that effect that the saltwater flows have.

Yeah, I'd absolutely agree with the industrial descriptor. You know, going past these places on boats and we're on two boats. One of them was an enormous commercial cruise that went through Macquarie Harbour and up the Gordon River. But we also went on a smaller boat on the East coast and went pretty close to the pens. And they are enormous. They measure up to 240m in circumference. They're huge things and they go down about 20m underneath the surface of the water, so they're pretty tightly packed in there as they get bigger. Apparently you can get about 10,000 adult fish. I just say one thing. Just you're talking about the marine environment in Macquarie Harbour. Mike, it's really interesting because you've got the river water on top in Macquarie Harbour and then the saltwater underneath. And so the river water is really quite dense when you're on a boat and you're going through Macquarie Harbour, it looks like you're going through black tea. There's not a lot of oxygen in the top layer of the water, so it's actually more prone to a low oxygenation rates than normal ocean water. And every couple of years they get a big sort of swell of ocean water coming through underneath that oxygenates that marine environment. But in recent years they've been not having that kind of effect. So there is a trial underway of $37.5 million, Reoxygenation trial where the the federal government has, um, got essentially barges that are pumping oxygen into the marine environment trying to create that effect that the saltwater flows have.

The emoji and skate is only found in Macquarie Harbour on Tasmania's west coast. The state and federal governments are funding a captive breeding program in an effort to save the endangered species.

The emoji and skate is only found in Macquarie Harbour on Tasmania's west coast. The state and federal governments are funding a captive breeding program in an effort to save the endangered species.

Yeah, I want to talk about the upside of the industry as well. I mean, we just want to add that in for balance. Obviously, there's a lot of concerns over its environmental effects, but it's a popular industry amongst some people in Tasmania because it's a job creator and it's good for the economy. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, I want to talk about the upside of the industry as well. I mean, we just want to add that in for balance. Obviously, there's a lot of concerns over its environmental effects, but it's a popular industry amongst some people in Tasmania because it's a job creator and it's good for the economy. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, I mean, the industry is valued at about $1.37 billion a year. It's a big money earner. It also employs, depending on who you ask, between 1700 and 5000 people in Tasmania in full time and casual jobs, and some of them direct jobs, some of them indirect jobs. But yeah, Salmon Tasmania says that it employs about half the population. Working population in Strahan for example.

Yeah, I mean, the industry is valued at about $1.37 billion a year. It's a big money earner. It also employs, depending on who you ask, between 1700 and 5000 people in Tasmania in full time and casual jobs, and some of them direct jobs, some of them indirect jobs. But yeah, Salmon Tasmania says that it employs about half the population. Working population in Strahan for example.

Mhm. Okay. So there's basically a conflict between the environmental concerns and those who would rather overlook those concerns or dismiss them as less important than the job creation and the economic benefits of the industry. I mean, Anthony Albanese has very much come down on one side of this debate.

Mhm. Okay. So there's basically a conflict between the environmental concerns and those who would rather overlook those concerns or dismiss them as less important than the job creation and the economic benefits of the industry. I mean, Anthony Albanese has very much come down on one side of this debate.

Indeed, this industry is worth $1 billion. Very vital for Tasmania. Vital for Australia and vital for our national interest.

Indeed, this industry is worth $1 billion. Very vital for Tasmania. Vital for Australia and vital for our national interest.

We saw him, I think, in February. Go down to Tasmania and eat a salmon supper very, very obviously for the cameras. What was he sort of doing down there and where was he, Bianca?

We saw him, I think, in February. Go down to Tasmania and eat a salmon supper very, very obviously for the cameras. What was he sort of doing down there and where was he, Bianca?

He was at a barbecue at Petuna Seafood in Devonport. You could say he was putting his money where his mouth was. He was alongside Senator Anne Urquhart, who is a labor senator for Tasmania, has three years left of her term and has been convinced to run for Braddon for labor, with the retiring MP Gavin Pearce stepping aside. So the Prime Minister was very clearly saying, you know, I'm here and Urquhart is here, and we fully back this industry and the workers and the union that represents them.

He was at a barbecue at Petuna Seafood in Devonport. You could say he was putting his money where his mouth was. He was alongside Senator Anne Urquhart, who is a labor senator for Tasmania, has three years left of her term and has been convinced to run for Braddon for labor, with the retiring MP Gavin Pearce stepping aside. So the Prime Minister was very clearly saying, you know, I'm here and Urquhart is here, and we fully back this industry and the workers and the union that represents them.

Yeah. Okay. And then it was about a week after that visit to Britain that the mass salmon death occurred that you spoke about before. So it's always been or particularly recently been a very controversial, perhaps divisive issue locally in Tasmania. But more recently it leapt onto the national debate and we saw Senator Hanson-Young, Greens senator, bring a prop into the upper chamber. What did she do? Mike, it was a sort of pretty stinky stunt.

Yeah. Okay. And then it was about a week after that visit to Britain that the mass salmon death occurred that you spoke about before. So it's always been or particularly recently been a very controversial, perhaps divisive issue locally in Tasmania. But more recently it leapt onto the national debate and we saw Senator Hanson-Young, Greens senator, bring a prop into the upper chamber. What did she do? Mike, it was a sort of pretty stinky stunt.

Yeah, it was visually arresting. Let's say she brought she went to the local Costco in Canberra, picked up a whole gutted dead salmon. It was defrosted. She snuck it in to the chamber underneath some copies of The Age and Sydney Morning Herald print editions. Fantastic use of the product.

Yeah, it was visually arresting. Let's say she brought she went to the local Costco in Canberra, picked up a whole gutted dead salmon. It was defrosted. She snuck it in to the chamber underneath some copies of The Age and Sydney Morning Herald print editions. Fantastic use of the product.

What a what a great honor for us. Yeah, well, they always say that we're tomorrow's fish and chip wrapping paper. Right. So this is a slight.

What a what a great honor for us. Yeah, well, they always say that we're tomorrow's fish and chip wrapping paper. Right. So this is a slight.

This is to prove that wasn't it.

This is to prove that wasn't it.

Yeah. It's a bit of a tweak.

Yeah. It's a bit of a tweak.

A rotten, stinking extinction. Salmon. Extinction. Salmon. Senator. Senator Hanson-Young. Remove the prop from the chamber.

A rotten, stinking extinction. Salmon. Extinction. Salmon. Senator. Senator Hanson-Young. Remove the prop from the chamber.

It was a piscatorial stunt, but it had a serious meaning for her and the opponents of a move that Anthony Albanese spearheaded. She was protesting the government's reform to environment law that was basically safeguarding the Macquarie Harbour salmon farming industry. It was it's very complicated and targeted, but it was essentially removing the right of third parties like environmental groups and so on, to challenge the approval that was given to the Macquarie Harbour farming operations. It's it is, as you can imagine, obscure. National environment law. And it's and there's a lot of conjecture over how nasty a reform that is for future cases, whether it might block challenges to coal mines, that that might be needed to be waged, and other people claim that it's just fixing up a loophole. If the the project has been approved in the past, why should it be open to incessant challenges in the future? A lot of debate over it, but Sarah Hanson-Young was making a point that she she vehemently disapproved of the move.

It was a piscatorial stunt, but it had a serious meaning for her and the opponents of a move that Anthony Albanese spearheaded. She was protesting the government's reform to environment law that was basically safeguarding the Macquarie Harbour salmon farming industry. It was it's very complicated and targeted, but it was essentially removing the right of third parties like environmental groups and so on, to challenge the approval that was given to the Macquarie Harbour farming operations. It's it is, as you can imagine, obscure. National environment law. And it's and there's a lot of conjecture over how nasty a reform that is for future cases, whether it might block challenges to coal mines, that that might be needed to be waged, and other people claim that it's just fixing up a loophole. If the the project has been approved in the past, why should it be open to incessant challenges in the future? A lot of debate over it, but Sarah Hanson-Young was making a point that she she vehemently disapproved of the move.

Yeah. Where is environment Minister Tanya Plibersek in all of this? Have we seen her say anything about the salmon farming issue?

Yeah. Where is environment Minister Tanya Plibersek in all of this? Have we seen her say anything about the salmon farming issue?

Jackie, you told me she's been nowhere on it really, especially since this federal election campaign kicked off four weeks ago. She had a decision on her desk for many months over the future of those salmon farming operations in Macquarie Harbour, and she kicked the can down the road and extended the deadline, which is in her right to do. But she extended the deadline way out beyond the polling day in the federal election in a move to neutralise the issue. As she did, that Anthony Albanese essentially pre-empted her decision and said to the industry and to Tasmania, don't worry, I'm guaranteeing jobs in the industry. And since then, Tanya Plibersek hasn't really played a public role in advocating for or against the decision or the industry.

Jackie, you told me she's been nowhere on it really, especially since this federal election campaign kicked off four weeks ago. She had a decision on her desk for many months over the future of those salmon farming operations in Macquarie Harbour, and she kicked the can down the road and extended the deadline, which is in her right to do. But she extended the deadline way out beyond the polling day in the federal election in a move to neutralise the issue. As she did, that Anthony Albanese essentially pre-empted her decision and said to the industry and to Tasmania, don't worry, I'm guaranteeing jobs in the industry. And since then, Tanya Plibersek hasn't really played a public role in advocating for or against the decision or the industry.

Labor seems to be treading very softly, to say the least, on environmental issues in this election. Would you agree with that, Mike?

Labor seems to be treading very softly, to say the least, on environmental issues in this election. Would you agree with that, Mike?

I would, yes. Um, I, I think that Anthony Albanese has made a calculation about how to maximise his chances of picking up all the seats he wants to, and he's doing that by sidelining environmental issues and making controversial calls on those issues. Salmon farming is a case in point. The calculation he has made is that the voters he annoys by doing that have nowhere else to go in his mind except to the greens. And typically the greens preferences will flow back to labor. Voters might just suck up their disappointment and vote for labor anyway. Or thirdly, if they choose to vote for one of the rising number of independents, Albanese has done the numbers. And you better believe he gets the abacus out before elections himself and personally runs the numbers extremely carefully. And he's decided that those independents, in the number of seats that he's worried about won't affect Labor's chances of winning the election. So essentially, he's saying we need to champion the blue collar vote or the vote for people that are concerned about the economy, because we don't want people worried about jobs, cost of living and inflation and so on to be put offside by our more environmentally minded reforms.

I would, yes. Um, I, I think that Anthony Albanese has made a calculation about how to maximise his chances of picking up all the seats he wants to, and he's doing that by sidelining environmental issues and making controversial calls on those issues. Salmon farming is a case in point. The calculation he has made is that the voters he annoys by doing that have nowhere else to go in his mind except to the greens. And typically the greens preferences will flow back to labor. Voters might just suck up their disappointment and vote for labor anyway. Or thirdly, if they choose to vote for one of the rising number of independents, Albanese has done the numbers. And you better believe he gets the abacus out before elections himself and personally runs the numbers extremely carefully. And he's decided that those independents, in the number of seats that he's worried about won't affect Labor's chances of winning the election. So essentially, he's saying we need to champion the blue collar vote or the vote for people that are concerned about the economy, because we don't want people worried about jobs, cost of living and inflation and so on to be put offside by our more environmentally minded reforms.

Yeah. What about Plibersek and Albanese's relationship more generally? There's been a lot of speculation about it. People have said that she's been sidelined, that the environment portfolio was a bit of a poisoned chalice to begin with. And then last year we saw Albanese sort of basically scuttle a key policy that Plibersek had been working on for quite some time. Can you tell us about that, Mike?

Yeah. What about Plibersek and Albanese's relationship more generally? There's been a lot of speculation about it. People have said that she's been sidelined, that the environment portfolio was a bit of a poisoned chalice to begin with. And then last year we saw Albanese sort of basically scuttle a key policy that Plibersek had been working on for quite some time. Can you tell us about that, Mike?

So that was the promise that labor made in 2022 to create a national environment watchdog known as the Environment Protection Agency or the EPA. So they made an election promise. Tanya Plibersek, it's fair to say, took three years to get that reform into parliament, really, by all accounts, dragged her heels a lot to get it in there almost at the last minute before the election was set to be called, she indicated that she had a deal with the Greens to get the necessary votes to to create the EPA in the Senate. And as we were talking about before, Anthony Albanese was concerned about that being a bad look to some voters in the upcoming election. So labor siding with the Greens, um, to put more regulations on industry. So he reached out across Tanya Plibersek, let's say, and scuttled the deal with the Greens. It's correct to say he went around Tanya Plibersek when doing that.

So that was the promise that labor made in 2022 to create a national environment watchdog known as the Environment Protection Agency or the EPA. So they made an election promise. Tanya Plibersek, it's fair to say, took three years to get that reform into parliament, really, by all accounts, dragged her heels a lot to get it in there almost at the last minute before the election was set to be called, she indicated that she had a deal with the Greens to get the necessary votes to to create the EPA in the Senate. And as we were talking about before, Anthony Albanese was concerned about that being a bad look to some voters in the upcoming election. So labor siding with the Greens, um, to put more regulations on industry. So he reached out across Tanya Plibersek, let's say, and scuttled the deal with the Greens. It's correct to say he went around Tanya Plibersek when doing that.

Yep. Captain's call went over our head.

Yep. Captain's call went over our head.

David.

David.

Shouldn't you have told your minister, Tanya Plibersek this was not going to happen before you told the Greens?

Shouldn't you have told your minister, Tanya Plibersek this was not going to happen before you told the Greens?

We did.

We did.

You told Tanya Plibersek before telling the Greens. We there was no deal.

You told Tanya Plibersek before telling the Greens. We there was no deal.

We informed all of our ministers, were informed the whole way through about how things were.

We informed all of our ministers, were informed the whole way through about how things were.

We also saw this very sort of awkward looking interaction between the two at the Labor Party campaign launch. It was a sort of missed axis type situation, and a little bit of fun was had with it. What did you make of that, Mike? Was that was that a media beat up, or was that a sort of accurate reflection of how awkward and frosty their relationship is?

We also saw this very sort of awkward looking interaction between the two at the Labor Party campaign launch. It was a sort of missed axis type situation, and a little bit of fun was had with it. What did you make of that, Mike? Was that was that a media beat up, or was that a sort of accurate reflection of how awkward and frosty their relationship is?

It's one of those magic moments where the pictures, um, really tell the the story that's going on behind the scenes. It was that personal relationship and the visceral reaction they had of the awkwardness of the whole situation, because Tanya Plibersek and Anthony Albanese are stars of the New South Wales Labor Party in the left wing faction, and they're both rivals. You've got charismatic, photogenic Tanya Plibersek, who is popular among Labor Party faithful, let alone the entire electorate. Anthony Albanese has worked his way up and done the hard yards to become leader, and he sees Plibersek as as a rival to his leadership, even though they could by all intents and purposes be allies and support each other. But he's nervous about her leadership potential, so there was a bit of that early pullback, nervous moment when they went to meet each other in the middle of this election campaign. And it came just a day or two after Anthony Albanese had once again stomped all over Tanya Plibersek turf without a mention of her. He was up at the Great Barrier Reef in the middle of the election campaign, highlighting Labor's great work on climate action and reducing emissions to save the Great Barrier Reef. And his factional ally, let's call it in ironic terms, Tanya Plibersek was nowhere to be seen. Didn't get her mug on the cameras and that's no mistake.

It's one of those magic moments where the pictures, um, really tell the the story that's going on behind the scenes. It was that personal relationship and the visceral reaction they had of the awkwardness of the whole situation, because Tanya Plibersek and Anthony Albanese are stars of the New South Wales Labor Party in the left wing faction, and they're both rivals. You've got charismatic, photogenic Tanya Plibersek, who is popular among Labor Party faithful, let alone the entire electorate. Anthony Albanese has worked his way up and done the hard yards to become leader, and he sees Plibersek as as a rival to his leadership, even though they could by all intents and purposes be allies and support each other. But he's nervous about her leadership potential, so there was a bit of that early pullback, nervous moment when they went to meet each other in the middle of this election campaign. And it came just a day or two after Anthony Albanese had once again stomped all over Tanya Plibersek turf without a mention of her. He was up at the Great Barrier Reef in the middle of the election campaign, highlighting Labor's great work on climate action and reducing emissions to save the Great Barrier Reef. And his factional ally, let's call it in ironic terms, Tanya Plibersek was nowhere to be seen. Didn't get her mug on the cameras and that's no mistake.

Yeah, I love how even amongst all the artifice of politics, the body language just doesn't lie in those moments. I want to ask you both reflecting on the last three years. It seems like, as we've discussed, Albanese has blocked some or a few significant attempts at reform from Tanya Plibersek, the environment ministers, and those reforms have been promised to voters. So I just want to ask whether you think labor has fulfilled its promises on the environment and whether it's basically got a good report card on environmental issues. What do you think, Mike?

Yeah, I love how even amongst all the artifice of politics, the body language just doesn't lie in those moments. I want to ask you both reflecting on the last three years. It seems like, as we've discussed, Albanese has blocked some or a few significant attempts at reform from Tanya Plibersek, the environment ministers, and those reforms have been promised to voters. So I just want to ask whether you think labor has fulfilled its promises on the environment and whether it's basically got a good report card on environmental issues. What do you think, Mike?

I think it's fair to say they haven't delivered on their promises. So run through it really briefly. They guaranteed in the 2022 election campaign that they'd create that EPA that we were talking about. The national environment watchdog hasn't been done. They also said that they would work on reforming national environment laws, sort of indicating that they were hoping to deliver that in Parliament, and there's no evidence of what work they've done other than consult with industry and become scared of the mining industry on that. And there hasn't been much progress outside of that. On actual environmental reform, we're.

I think it's fair to say they haven't delivered on their promises. So run through it really briefly. They guaranteed in the 2022 election campaign that they'd create that EPA that we were talking about. The national environment watchdog hasn't been done. They also said that they would work on reforming national environment laws, sort of indicating that they were hoping to deliver that in Parliament, and there's no evidence of what work they've done other than consult with industry and become scared of the mining industry on that. And there hasn't been much progress outside of that. On actual environmental reform, we're.

Talking not just about the creation of a new environment protection agency, but a quite fundamental rewriting of our environment laws. We want to see stronger environmental protections, but also faster, clearer decision making. And that's the path we've embarked on.

Talking not just about the creation of a new environment protection agency, but a quite fundamental rewriting of our environment laws. We want to see stronger environmental protections, but also faster, clearer decision making. And that's the path we've embarked on.

Well, to be fair, it has to be said that Labour has done a lot of work on emissions reduction and setting climate targets and getting in place reforms in the energy grid to switch fossil fuels for renewables. And there's conjecture over how much progress they're making, to be sure, but they are making progress there. So it's a mixed bag across that spectrum, in my opinion, but they haven't delivered what they said they would. On environmental reform.

Well, to be fair, it has to be said that Labour has done a lot of work on emissions reduction and setting climate targets and getting in place reforms in the energy grid to switch fossil fuels for renewables. And there's conjecture over how much progress they're making, to be sure, but they are making progress there. So it's a mixed bag across that spectrum, in my opinion, but they haven't delivered what they said they would. On environmental reform.

Yeah, I mean, I'd say that they've done some pretty solid work on reducing emissions. That's been a big factor and a big focus of this first term. But I think you'd have to say that, you know, Anthony Albanese came to power promising to strengthen environmental laws and is on the day before calling the election, he's actually significantly reduced them or weakened them. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I'd say that they've done some pretty solid work on reducing emissions. That's been a big factor and a big focus of this first term. But I think you'd have to say that, you know, Anthony Albanese came to power promising to strengthen environmental laws and is on the day before calling the election, he's actually significantly reduced them or weakened them. Yeah.

And what do you think is going to happen in those Tasmanian seats?

And what do you think is going to happen in those Tasmanian seats?

Guys, I think the electorates in Tasmania are interesting. I mean, one electorate I didn't really speak about is Franklin, which although it's on a pretty solid margin of 13.7% with Julie Collins, the fisheries Minister. Um, we have an anti salmon candidate who's solidly backed by the Greens. One of the leaders of his campaign is Paul Thomas, who happens to be married to Bob Brown. It's a well-resourced campaign backed by $30,000 in climate, 200 money. They actually think they're in with a bit of a shot in that seat, but in Tasmania they have a pretty solid tradition of voting below the line and numbering every single box. And that's obviously influenced by the fact that they have a hare-clark voting system in state elections. But they also do it in the Senate. And, you know, who did you put number 58in the Senate? You know, it's a bit of a question. So I think, um, I think we could see the possibility of more independence across the country. And I think the green and the independent vote will probably go up in Tasmania.

Guys, I think the electorates in Tasmania are interesting. I mean, one electorate I didn't really speak about is Franklin, which although it's on a pretty solid margin of 13.7% with Julie Collins, the fisheries Minister. Um, we have an anti salmon candidate who's solidly backed by the Greens. One of the leaders of his campaign is Paul Thomas, who happens to be married to Bob Brown. It's a well-resourced campaign backed by $30,000 in climate, 200 money. They actually think they're in with a bit of a shot in that seat, but in Tasmania they have a pretty solid tradition of voting below the line and numbering every single box. And that's obviously influenced by the fact that they have a hare-clark voting system in state elections. But they also do it in the Senate. And, you know, who did you put number 58in the Senate? You know, it's a bit of a question. So I think, um, I think we could see the possibility of more independence across the country. And I think the green and the independent vote will probably go up in Tasmania.

How do you think it's going to shake out in Braddon with with Macquarie Harbour in that seat?

How do you think it's going to shake out in Braddon with with Macquarie Harbour in that seat?

I think labor is going to get within striking distance of Braddon. Wow. They internally and also people in the Greens as well, think the 8%, uh, margin that the liberals hold that seat on. And remember Gavin Pearce is retiring is a bit of a freak result. They think and I think their internal polling is showing. It's pretty close.

I think labor is going to get within striking distance of Braddon. Wow. They internally and also people in the Greens as well, think the 8%, uh, margin that the liberals hold that seat on. And remember Gavin Pearce is retiring is a bit of a freak result. They think and I think their internal polling is showing. It's pretty close.

There you go. The salmon industry will thank them if they win. Braddon.

There you go. The salmon industry will thank them if they win. Braddon.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Listen, guys, that was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much. I love doing these deep dives. And Tasmania is such a fascinating electorate with so many sort of different issues going on. Wonderful place to visit. I really appreciate you guys joining me today.

Listen, guys, that was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much. I love doing these deep dives. And Tasmania is such a fascinating electorate with so many sort of different issues going on. Wonderful place to visit. I really appreciate you guys joining me today.

Thank you so much for having us.

Thank you so much for having us.

Thanks, jacki.

Thanks, jacki.

Today's episode was produced by Julia Katzel with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Our executive producer is Tami Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with all the election coverage and exclusives, visit The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe to us via Visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.

Today's episode was produced by Julia Katzel with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Our executive producer is Tami Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with all the election coverage and exclusives, visit The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe to us via Visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.