From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday, January 30th. Has the New South Wales Police force just thwarted a domestic terrorism plot? This is what people across the nation are asking themselves. Ever since Sydneysiders woke to news that a caravan full of explosives had been seized in the northwest of the city, just as worrying to many was what is alleged to have also been contained in the caravan, the address of a Sydney synagogue today. Chief reporter Jordan Baker, on why police chose to wait ten days after making their discovery to tell the public and the shock waves that this incident has sent through the Jewish community. So Jordan, we all woke this morning to looking at our websites and our TVs, and there was full of coverage of, you know, some pretty unsettling news, which is this caravan full of explosives that is potentially at the heart of a foiled domestic terrorism plot. So can you tell us about this van?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday, January 30th. Has the New South Wales Police force just thwarted a domestic terrorism plot? This is what people across the nation are asking themselves. Ever since Sydneysiders woke to news that a caravan full of explosives had been seized in the northwest of the city, just as worrying to many was what is alleged to have also been contained in the caravan, the address of a Sydney synagogue today. Chief reporter Jordan Baker, on why police chose to wait ten days after making their discovery to tell the public and the shock waves that this incident has sent through the Jewish community. So Jordan, we all woke this morning to looking at our websites and our TVs, and there was full of coverage of, you know, some pretty unsettling news, which is this caravan full of explosives that is potentially at the heart of a foiled domestic terrorism plot. So can you tell us about this van?

So this caravan was filled with explosives that are normally found on mining sites. So there are so much in there that it was capable of a bomb blast that would have swept about 40m. So if this had actually come to fruition, it would have been, you know, probably the worst attack on Australian soil ever. And it would have not only taken out its intended target. And apparently there were two Jewish sites on a note that was found inside this caravan. It wouldn't have only just taken out those sites, it would have taken out everything around it. So this was an attack targeted at Jewish sites but would have affected everybody.

So this caravan was filled with explosives that are normally found on mining sites. So there are so much in there that it was capable of a bomb blast that would have swept about 40m. So if this had actually come to fruition, it would have been, you know, probably the worst attack on Australian soil ever. And it would have not only taken out its intended target. And apparently there were two Jewish sites on a note that was found inside this caravan. It wouldn't have only just taken out those sites, it would have taken out everything around it. So this was an attack targeted at Jewish sites but would have affected everybody.

And do we actually know where the van was found and which specific Jewish sites were sort of listed on this note, as I understand it, that was found in the van.

And do we actually know where the van was found and which specific Jewish sites were sort of listed on this note, as I understand it, that was found in the van.

So the van was found in dural, effectively the outskirts of Sydney. It's still got like quite big properties out there, effectively sort of farms, uh, urbanised farms. So there's many parts of dural which that wouldn't see a lot of traffic. Uh, it was discovered by a farmer. It had sort of been left there. Uh, the farmer found it and brought it onto his property. The timeline of that is not entirely clear, but we think it had been left there for a few days. The farmer brought it onto his property, left it there for a while. It seemed abandoned, then opened the door around January 19th and realised what was inside and called the police. It contained these explosives. It also contained what people have described to me as documents or a note listing Jewish targets. My understanding is that there were two Who targets one of them religious, one of them community, not schools. We must be very clear about that, not schools or preschools, because there is so much anxiety among parents in the Jewish communities whose kids go to Jewish schools at the moment, that the stress is very, very high. So not schools. The subsequent investigation has been going on since then. It has been a joint investigation between the New South Wales Police counter-terrorism unit, between the Australian Federal Police and ASIO, which is the domestic security organisation. It came to light yesterday due to media leaks.

So the van was found in dural, effectively the outskirts of Sydney. It's still got like quite big properties out there, effectively sort of farms, uh, urbanised farms. So there's many parts of dural which that wouldn't see a lot of traffic. Uh, it was discovered by a farmer. It had sort of been left there. Uh, the farmer found it and brought it onto his property. The timeline of that is not entirely clear, but we think it had been left there for a few days. The farmer brought it onto his property, left it there for a while. It seemed abandoned, then opened the door around January 19th and realised what was inside and called the police. It contained these explosives. It also contained what people have described to me as documents or a note listing Jewish targets. My understanding is that there were two Who targets one of them religious, one of them community, not schools. We must be very clear about that, not schools or preschools, because there is so much anxiety among parents in the Jewish communities whose kids go to Jewish schools at the moment, that the stress is very, very high. So not schools. The subsequent investigation has been going on since then. It has been a joint investigation between the New South Wales Police counter-terrorism unit, between the Australian Federal Police and ASIO, which is the domestic security organisation. It came to light yesterday due to media leaks.

And so what do we actually know about the owner of the van?

And so what do we actually know about the owner of the van?

So it appears that this.

So it appears that this.

Van was bought, allegedly bought by a woman who has also been linked to an anti-Semitic attack. Now she was advertising allegedly on Facebook to see if anyone had a caravan that she could buy. So this woman does not seem to have any links to any groups that you would think would be, uh, anti-Semitic. She's not linked to any kind of Hezbollah groups. She's not linked to any neo-Nazi groups. She seems to be, you know, a someone who is effectively hired potentially for this job in itself. She's in custody under, uh, charges that aren't related to this. They haven't actually been charges filed about the caravan itself yet. The couple that are said to have owned this caravan are in police custody for other things.

Van was bought, allegedly bought by a woman who has also been linked to an anti-Semitic attack. Now she was advertising allegedly on Facebook to see if anyone had a caravan that she could buy. So this woman does not seem to have any links to any groups that you would think would be, uh, anti-Semitic. She's not linked to any kind of Hezbollah groups. She's not linked to any neo-Nazi groups. She seems to be, you know, a someone who is effectively hired potentially for this job in itself. She's in custody under, uh, charges that aren't related to this. They haven't actually been charges filed about the caravan itself yet. The couple that are said to have owned this caravan are in police custody for other things.

And we know that a big investigation is is being undertaken right now. I believe there's more than 100 officers that have been tasked with catching the perpetrators that are behind this. But are authorities actually treating this as a potentially thwarted terrorist attack?

And we know that a big investigation is is being undertaken right now. I believe there's more than 100 officers that have been tasked with catching the perpetrators that are behind this. But are authorities actually treating this as a potentially thwarted terrorist attack?

Absolutely. Absolutely. They're taking it extremely seriously. Some of the politicians have sort of described it as a terrorist attack. It's being investigated by Out a terrorist investigation. Squads. It's a very unusual case. There's a lot of questions. But one of the big problems, obviously, for the case is that police. They didn't let anybody know about the investigation. They didn't let anyone know about the discovery of the explosives. What they said today was they had been investigating this using clandestine investigative methods. So they would never explain what these methods are. But when they talk about clandestine investigative methods, they usually talk about things like surveillance, about phone taps, you know, potentially undercover work. So when police use these kind of tactics, they need to operate in secrecy, because if if they're trying to catch people admitting to things on phones, for example, it can be not helpful if it's if it's in the public domain. So the leaking of the information about this case, police say, basically have have forced them to abandon their original covert investigation strategies and regroup today to try and find another way of tracking down who is ultimately responsible for this.

Absolutely. Absolutely. They're taking it extremely seriously. Some of the politicians have sort of described it as a terrorist attack. It's being investigated by Out a terrorist investigation. Squads. It's a very unusual case. There's a lot of questions. But one of the big problems, obviously, for the case is that police. They didn't let anybody know about the investigation. They didn't let anyone know about the discovery of the explosives. What they said today was they had been investigating this using clandestine investigative methods. So they would never explain what these methods are. But when they talk about clandestine investigative methods, they usually talk about things like surveillance, about phone taps, you know, potentially undercover work. So when police use these kind of tactics, they need to operate in secrecy, because if if they're trying to catch people admitting to things on phones, for example, it can be not helpful if it's if it's in the public domain. So the leaking of the information about this case, police say, basically have have forced them to abandon their original covert investigation strategies and regroup today to try and find another way of tracking down who is ultimately responsible for this.

Because what we're talking about, if I've got this right, is that there is this ten day gap. You know, we believe the police found the caravan in general on January 19th, and then it was revealed to the public that this had been found on January 29th. And there's been some anger or has there been some pushback, I guess, to from the Jewish community about. Well, there was this gap and this potentially scary thing could have happened. Why weren't we told?

Because what we're talking about, if I've got this right, is that there is this ten day gap. You know, we believe the police found the caravan in general on January 19th, and then it was revealed to the public that this had been found on January 29th. And there's been some anger or has there been some pushback, I guess, to from the Jewish community about. Well, there was this gap and this potentially scary thing could have happened. Why weren't we told?

Yes. So the Jewish community, most people in the Jewish community found out about this yesterday when a story went online in a Sydney newspaper about it. So, as you can imagine, there was enormous distress and anxiety. The graffiti attacks, the Firebombings, have been an enormous source of stress and anxiety the Jewish community in Sydney. There is obviously very malicious intent behind it. But a caravan full of explosives is a huge escalation. So there was a lot of anxiety in the Jewish community yesterday. There still is today, obviously, but when they found out about it yesterday, they found about it through the media. They have had a really good relationship with the New South Wales government and New South Wales Police in terms of their communication about these issues. So it came as an extreme shock. Now, the New South Wales Police hadn't planned for this to go public yesterday, so everyone was scrambling yesterday. There was a lot of initial anger from the community that they hadn't been told, concerned that, you know, if there were places that were being targeted, why weren't these places informed? Most people in the community now, after some detailed briefings last night, uh, you know, a night to sleep on it or not, sleep probably was the case for a lot of people have now sort of.

Yes. So the Jewish community, most people in the Jewish community found out about this yesterday when a story went online in a Sydney newspaper about it. So, as you can imagine, there was enormous distress and anxiety. The graffiti attacks, the Firebombings, have been an enormous source of stress and anxiety the Jewish community in Sydney. There is obviously very malicious intent behind it. But a caravan full of explosives is a huge escalation. So there was a lot of anxiety in the Jewish community yesterday. There still is today, obviously, but when they found out about it yesterday, they found about it through the media. They have had a really good relationship with the New South Wales government and New South Wales Police in terms of their communication about these issues. So it came as an extreme shock. Now, the New South Wales Police hadn't planned for this to go public yesterday, so everyone was scrambling yesterday. There was a lot of initial anger from the community that they hadn't been told, concerned that, you know, if there were places that were being targeted, why weren't these places informed? Most people in the community now, after some detailed briefings last night, uh, you know, a night to sleep on it or not, sleep probably was the case for a lot of people have now sort of.

Been.

Been.

Convinced that the police and the government had made a considered decision that the best response in this case was to use those covert investigation methods, that there wasn't a real and present danger relating to the explosives and that, you know, they had made the decision, on balance, that it was better to go ahead and investigate without making this public. So, I think, you know, the relationship between Jewish organisations and the government had been strong enough that I think a lot of the Jewish organisations are really willing to give the government the best of, you know, the benefit of the doubt on this today. But obviously, the anxiety in that community is which was high, has really ratcheted up.

Convinced that the police and the government had made a considered decision that the best response in this case was to use those covert investigation methods, that there wasn't a real and present danger relating to the explosives and that, you know, they had made the decision, on balance, that it was better to go ahead and investigate without making this public. So, I think, you know, the relationship between Jewish organisations and the government had been strong enough that I think a lot of the Jewish organisations are really willing to give the government the best of, you know, the benefit of the doubt on this today. But obviously, the anxiety in that community is which was high, has really ratcheted up.

I mean, what sort of manifestations, I guess, have you seen in the community, or perhaps people you've spoken to that attests to the feelings that people are having in the Jewish community about this?

I mean, what sort of manifestations, I guess, have you seen in the community, or perhaps people you've spoken to that attests to the feelings that people are having in the Jewish community about this?

Well.

Well.

Um, you know, I've spoken to people who say that their children have been hiding the emblems on their on school uniforms that they are no longer wearing. You know, basketball team hats they might have brought back from Israel or what have you. Uh, you know, people driving their kids to school rather than letting them take public transport. There are certain prominent members of the Jewish community who, you know, are often in the media. They've been taking some personal safety steps, like perhaps, you know, varying their route to work or that sort of thing. So, you know, there is this sense that that the threat is escalating and there are some people who are who are quite public and therefore quite vulnerable.

Um, you know, I've spoken to people who say that their children have been hiding the emblems on their on school uniforms that they are no longer wearing. You know, basketball team hats they might have brought back from Israel or what have you. Uh, you know, people driving their kids to school rather than letting them take public transport. There are certain prominent members of the Jewish community who, you know, are often in the media. They've been taking some personal safety steps, like perhaps, you know, varying their route to work or that sort of thing. So, you know, there is this sense that that the threat is escalating and there are some people who are who are quite public and therefore quite vulnerable.

Okay. And so maybe this is something you can't answer. But are police perhaps considering the intention behind this incident, you know, perhaps to terrify people and not to detonate the explosives? I mean, it does seem convenient that there was a list of so-called targets found inside the caravan.

Okay. And so maybe this is something you can't answer. But are police perhaps considering the intention behind this incident, you know, perhaps to terrify people and not to detonate the explosives? I mean, it does seem convenient that there was a list of so-called targets found inside the caravan.

Yes. So this is this is the police say that that all possibilities are on the table. They say that this is this is a kind of unusual case. So, you know, the possibilities could be that that it was as a, as a kind of propaganda warning or maybe that the that it was foiled. However, there is an element to this which I think is worrying both the police and the Jewish community, which is the similarities between some of the methods used in, particularly in the graffiti attacks, for example, and the methods used by organised crime groups. So Sydney's been experiencing an increasing number and intensity of anti-Semitic attacks over the last few months. So in one of the graffiti attacks, for example, you had a stolen car which had been sort of cleaned. So you'll have someone, for example, who takes stolen cars, completely cleans them up like bleaches them, puts clone number plates on them. And so these are the cars that are then bought to do drive by shootings. So in one of the graffiti attacks late last year, for example, you had somebody with no relation to either the Jewish or any other sort of community that may have an investment in what's going on in the Middle East. So potentially being allegedly paid to carry out a graffiti attack using a car that had been cleaned, that was firebombed on site. And the question for both police and for the Jewish community is, well, who are the puppet masters? How do we get past these kind of foot soldiers who potentially have just contract, you know, crooks to find out the people who are, who are, who are really wanting to cause this damage. And and why, you know, this is of a great concern to both the police and the Jewish community because the question mark over this. Like, who is it? What is their intent? Exactly. You know, how criminal are they? What are they trying to do? Where would they draw the line? Is all questions that we don't have answers to.

Yes. So this is this is the police say that that all possibilities are on the table. They say that this is this is a kind of unusual case. So, you know, the possibilities could be that that it was as a, as a kind of propaganda warning or maybe that the that it was foiled. However, there is an element to this which I think is worrying both the police and the Jewish community, which is the similarities between some of the methods used in, particularly in the graffiti attacks, for example, and the methods used by organised crime groups. So Sydney's been experiencing an increasing number and intensity of anti-Semitic attacks over the last few months. So in one of the graffiti attacks, for example, you had a stolen car which had been sort of cleaned. So you'll have someone, for example, who takes stolen cars, completely cleans them up like bleaches them, puts clone number plates on them. And so these are the cars that are then bought to do drive by shootings. So in one of the graffiti attacks late last year, for example, you had somebody with no relation to either the Jewish or any other sort of community that may have an investment in what's going on in the Middle East. So potentially being allegedly paid to carry out a graffiti attack using a car that had been cleaned, that was firebombed on site. And the question for both police and for the Jewish community is, well, who are the puppet masters? How do we get past these kind of foot soldiers who potentially have just contract, you know, crooks to find out the people who are, who are, who are really wanting to cause this damage. And and why, you know, this is of a great concern to both the police and the Jewish community because the question mark over this. Like, who is it? What is their intent? Exactly. You know, how criminal are they? What are they trying to do? Where would they draw the line? Is all questions that we don't have answers to.

Mhm. Well thank you so much, Jordan. We're always lucky you're covering this stuff. But thank you so much for your time.

Mhm. Well thank you so much, Jordan. We're always lucky you're covering this stuff. But thank you so much for your time.

Always a pleasure.

Always a pleasure.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.