From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Chris Payne filling in for Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Monday, January 27th, Ittai Flesher has spent the past 15 months reporting from Jerusalem, which has given him a rare insight into the Israel-hamas war. After facilitating thousands of hours of Israeli-Palestinian dialogue, the former Melbourne high school teacher says dehumanizing the other may be the greatest barrier to peace in the region today. Itai Flesher on the pathway to a permanent ceasefire and remaining optimistic despite all odds. Itai, you've had a very unique lens with which to view this devastating conflict in the Middle East. As a journalist based in Jerusalem. So tell me, what have the past 15 months been like for you as both a resident and as a journalist?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Chris Payne filling in for Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Monday, January 27th, Ittai Flesher has spent the past 15 months reporting from Jerusalem, which has given him a rare insight into the Israel-hamas war. After facilitating thousands of hours of Israeli-Palestinian dialogue, the former Melbourne high school teacher says dehumanizing the other may be the greatest barrier to peace in the region today. Itai Flesher on the pathway to a permanent ceasefire and remaining optimistic despite all odds. Itai, you've had a very unique lens with which to view this devastating conflict in the Middle East. As a journalist based in Jerusalem. So tell me, what have the past 15 months been like for you as both a resident and as a journalist?

So I woke up on October 7th to the sound of rocket sirens early in the morning, as did everyone else who lived in Jerusalem, and it was terrifying.

So I woke up on October 7th to the sound of rocket sirens early in the morning, as did everyone else who lived in Jerusalem, and it was terrifying.

We have breaking news out of Israel this morning, where Hamas has launched a surprise attack within Israel's borders overnight, first launching rockets for.

We have breaking news out of Israel this morning, where Hamas has launched a surprise attack within Israel's borders overnight, first launching rockets for.

The first week. The more the news came in about the what happened at the Nova Party.

The first week. The more the news came in about the what happened at the Nova Party.

Music festival, where nearly 260 people were killed, according to Israeli first responders, and.

Music festival, where nearly 260 people were killed, according to Israeli first responders, and.

The enormous amounts of of people gunned down in their homes and the the devastating kidnapping of so many people. You know, I was shocked, I was horrified, I was afraid, I was afraid for my children. I didn't really leave the house for a couple of weeks. Um, when when it initially happened. And then war became the new normal, so that the rocket sirens and the the idea of friends being called up to serve in the army and all of that sort of thing just became like just routine life. And then I started seeing as Israel was responding to to October 7th, the horrific devastation of Gaza.

The enormous amounts of of people gunned down in their homes and the the devastating kidnapping of so many people. You know, I was shocked, I was horrified, I was afraid, I was afraid for my children. I didn't really leave the house for a couple of weeks. Um, when when it initially happened. And then war became the new normal, so that the rocket sirens and the the idea of friends being called up to serve in the army and all of that sort of thing just became like just routine life. And then I started seeing as Israel was responding to to October 7th, the horrific devastation of Gaza.

The residents of the besieged enclave of Gaza faced a night of death and destruction as Israeli warplanes launched a series of airstrikes. Israel's prime minister.

The residents of the besieged enclave of Gaza faced a night of death and destruction as Israeli warplanes launched a series of airstrikes. Israel's prime minister.

And what started off, you know, as a as a war against Hamas really became something that led to the destruction of entire cities in Gaza, of of Jabalia, of Beit Hanoun, of Beit Lahiya, like places that used to be home to hundreds of thousands of people now look like an earthquake hit them. And so, as someone that has many Israeli and Palestinian friends, uh, the last 15 months has been just horrific, uh, for me to see just this Explosion of of violence that I've, I've never really seen before in my life. And, and especially someone working in a peace organization that believes in dialogue and humanizing the others. It's been incredibly traumatic to be, you know, in the eye of the storm as all of this is happening.

And what started off, you know, as a as a war against Hamas really became something that led to the destruction of entire cities in Gaza, of of Jabalia, of Beit Hanoun, of Beit Lahiya, like places that used to be home to hundreds of thousands of people now look like an earthquake hit them. And so, as someone that has many Israeli and Palestinian friends, uh, the last 15 months has been just horrific, uh, for me to see just this Explosion of of violence that I've, I've never really seen before in my life. And, and especially someone working in a peace organization that believes in dialogue and humanizing the others. It's been incredibly traumatic to be, you know, in the eye of the storm as all of this is happening.

Now, we've recently had a ceasefire agreement.

Now, we've recently had a ceasefire agreement.

It includes a full and complete ceasefire, withdrawal of Israeli forces from all the populated areas of Gaza.

It includes a full and complete ceasefire, withdrawal of Israeli forces from all the populated areas of Gaza.

You wrote that the announcement of that ceasefire filled you with a mixture of relief and trepidation. Could you elaborate on on those feelings?

You wrote that the announcement of that ceasefire filled you with a mixture of relief and trepidation. Could you elaborate on on those feelings?

So I'll say the relief part is that I very much want the Israeli hostages to come home, and I can't imagine what their parents have gone through for the last 470 days. Having, you know, the most precious thing in their lives, their child being held in the dark tunnels of Hamas in Gaza. So I was very happy that they could come home.

So I'll say the relief part is that I very much want the Israeli hostages to come home, and I can't imagine what their parents have gone through for the last 470 days. Having, you know, the most precious thing in their lives, their child being held in the dark tunnels of Hamas in Gaza. So I was very happy that they could come home.

The first Israeli hostages. Three women have just been released by Hamas after nearly 16 months in captivity. The Israeli military.

The first Israeli hostages. Three women have just been released by Hamas after nearly 16 months in captivity. The Israeli military.

Can't imagine what these girls have gone through and can't wait to have them back in our.

Can't imagine what these girls have gone through and can't wait to have them back in our.

Arms. I'm very happy for every single resident of Gaza that now can also go to sleep at night without worrying about a bomb being dropped on their heads, or which tent will they be moved to from place to place, or will their kids be able to go to school?

Arms. I'm very happy for every single resident of Gaza that now can also go to sleep at night without worrying about a bomb being dropped on their heads, or which tent will they be moved to from place to place, or will their kids be able to go to school?

In Gaza today, as the ceasefire began. Smiles, selfies and most of all, a sense of relief.

In Gaza today, as the ceasefire began. Smiles, selfies and most of all, a sense of relief.

Jenna. Jenna. Jenna, I know that part of the ceasefire agreement was also the massive increase of aid, and so a lot more people that were hungry now will have food to eat. And so I could see that there was a lot of joy and celebration in both Israel and in Gaza at the announcement of the ceasefire. And so that was the joy and the trepidation is that the cease fire has multiple phases, and we're only in phase one of it, and both Hamas and Israel have various obligations to to keep in order for that cease fire, to continue into a permanent peace. And I have a lot of trepidation that that won't happen. And so that's that's why I feel both those things.

Jenna. Jenna. Jenna, I know that part of the ceasefire agreement was also the massive increase of aid, and so a lot more people that were hungry now will have food to eat. And so I could see that there was a lot of joy and celebration in both Israel and in Gaza at the announcement of the ceasefire. And so that was the joy and the trepidation is that the cease fire has multiple phases, and we're only in phase one of it, and both Hamas and Israel have various obligations to to keep in order for that cease fire, to continue into a permanent peace. And I have a lot of trepidation that that won't happen. And so that's that's why I feel both those things.

So what would a successful ceasefire deal look like to you? Thousands of Palestinian people have returned home to ruins, with no detailed plan in place to govern after the war, much less rebuild it.

So what would a successful ceasefire deal look like to you? Thousands of Palestinian people have returned home to ruins, with no detailed plan in place to govern after the war, much less rebuild it.

So I don't really have short term solutions to the current political crisis, and I'm not a politician and it's not really my area of expertise, but I have been in the room for over 1000 hours of dialogue over the last seven years between Israeli and Palestinian children, and I've heard a few things there that I that I hope will be useful to people trying to understand how to make sure this never happens again. But I think the first thing that we need we need to tackle is dehumanization. I think there's, um, a huge lack of of sympathy for people on the other side. Um, and I understand where that comes from, obviously. Uh, most Israelis don't feel sympathetic for Palestinians because, um, we see what was done to us on October 7th and we see the celebrations of October 7th. And we say, why should I feel sorry for these people? And a lot of Palestinians don't feel sympathy for Israelis because they live under occupation and behind walls and behind checkpoints. And, uh, their lives are miserable because of the security measures that Israel puts in place to, to to crush their their freedom of movement and their right to, to to work and study and access. Um, you know, things that they need to in Israel if they live in Gaza and the West Bank. Um, and so I get totally why there's those feelings there. And I think that if we if we want this ceasefire to be a permanent ceasefire, then we need to firstly, um, look at our media, at the way we tell stories about one another. And we need to engage in humanization, which is what we do at the organization where I work, kids for peace, Jerusalem, where we every week we bring Israeli and Palestinian children together, um, to talk to one another, to share their life stories, to share their vision for this place, to talk about, um, what they think of when they hear the word peace and to talk about their religious traditions and share their foods and share their cultures. And I think I think without that process happening on a grassroots level, then no political solution will be effective.

So I don't really have short term solutions to the current political crisis, and I'm not a politician and it's not really my area of expertise, but I have been in the room for over 1000 hours of dialogue over the last seven years between Israeli and Palestinian children, and I've heard a few things there that I that I hope will be useful to people trying to understand how to make sure this never happens again. But I think the first thing that we need we need to tackle is dehumanization. I think there's, um, a huge lack of of sympathy for people on the other side. Um, and I understand where that comes from, obviously. Uh, most Israelis don't feel sympathetic for Palestinians because, um, we see what was done to us on October 7th and we see the celebrations of October 7th. And we say, why should I feel sorry for these people? And a lot of Palestinians don't feel sympathy for Israelis because they live under occupation and behind walls and behind checkpoints. And, uh, their lives are miserable because of the security measures that Israel puts in place to, to to crush their their freedom of movement and their right to, to to work and study and access. Um, you know, things that they need to in Israel if they live in Gaza and the West Bank. Um, and so I get totally why there's those feelings there. And I think that if we if we want this ceasefire to be a permanent ceasefire, then we need to firstly, um, look at our media, at the way we tell stories about one another. And we need to engage in humanization, which is what we do at the organization where I work, kids for peace, Jerusalem, where we every week we bring Israeli and Palestinian children together, um, to talk to one another, to share their life stories, to share their vision for this place, to talk about, um, what they think of when they hear the word peace and to talk about their religious traditions and share their foods and share their cultures. And I think I think without that process happening on a grassroots level, then no political solution will be effective.

Could you just tell me a little bit more about that internal struggle that many deal with, the dehumanizing the other and how that perpetuates conflict?

Could you just tell me a little bit more about that internal struggle that many deal with, the dehumanizing the other and how that perpetuates conflict?

I think when you when you don't feel the pain of another person, you know, Leo Tolstoy once famously said, um, to feel your own pain means that you're alive, and to feel the pain of others means that you're human. And I again, because of the experiences that I have in Jerusalem as a dialogue facilitator, I try and feel the pain of others, um, people all sorts of all over the political spectrum. And I do that because I, I go to dialogue groups, I go to dialogue groups with people on the extreme right and the extreme left with Palestinians of all varieties. And that's why I feel I understand where people come from. I don't think people that have extreme political views are mad. They're not mad at all. They they have those extreme views because of experiences that have happened in their lives, both Israelis and Palestinians. And I think once you start doing that dialogue and having empathy for people, you understand where people are coming from and how people see history in very different ways, and how people have very different facts that lead them to the political views that they hold. And with all of that, we need to find a way to coexist. And this has happened in other places in the world. There's other places in the world that have gone through horrific violence, you know, in Northern Ireland, in South Africa, in Rwanda. And they've found ways to stop that. And I think we can learn from those other places in how we can stop that here as well.

I think when you when you don't feel the pain of another person, you know, Leo Tolstoy once famously said, um, to feel your own pain means that you're alive, and to feel the pain of others means that you're human. And I again, because of the experiences that I have in Jerusalem as a dialogue facilitator, I try and feel the pain of others, um, people all sorts of all over the political spectrum. And I do that because I, I go to dialogue groups, I go to dialogue groups with people on the extreme right and the extreme left with Palestinians of all varieties. And that's why I feel I understand where people come from. I don't think people that have extreme political views are mad. They're not mad at all. They they have those extreme views because of experiences that have happened in their lives, both Israelis and Palestinians. And I think once you start doing that dialogue and having empathy for people, you understand where people are coming from and how people see history in very different ways, and how people have very different facts that lead them to the political views that they hold. And with all of that, we need to find a way to coexist. And this has happened in other places in the world. There's other places in the world that have gone through horrific violence, you know, in Northern Ireland, in South Africa, in Rwanda. And they've found ways to stop that. And I think we can learn from those other places in how we can stop that here as well.

You said that you've been in the room for 1000 hours of dialogue, which must give you a perspective that very few people have. What are a couple of the things that you've learned from those thousand hours?

You said that you've been in the room for 1000 hours of dialogue, which must give you a perspective that very few people have. What are a couple of the things that you've learned from those thousand hours?

I think that I've learned that we're not as different as we think we are. A lot of us think that, like our nation is unique and our connection to this land is unique and our dreams are unique. But when you put people in the same room, we pretty much eat the same foods. We we are connected to the same historic places. And when we talk about what we want, we all want to have kids that can just go to school in peace and not not be behind security walls and checkpoints and and to just like live freely and enjoy life and find love and enjoy good food and like we want the same things. Maybe that's not a radical thing to say, but like, I think often people, when they do the dialogues, they they're kind of surprised by that. At first they're like, oh, we just want the same things. And and also, I'd say even within Israel there are there are close to 2 million Arab citizens of Israel, many who identify as Palestinians. And so there is interaction between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians, Israelis all the time. And and there are also places where coexistence already exists, like in places like Haifa or Akka, where people have largely equal rights between Jews and Arabs. Um, people largely get along. Um, but where there's inequality, there's obviously conflict. And so, you know, in my view, the more you can put people under a political regime where they have equal rights. and that includes also the right to self-determination for Israelis and Palestinians, which can be done through a two state solution or a confederation or a federation. I'm not really attached to one solution or the other, but I think what's important is that we have a political regime here between the river and the sea, that allows everyone to live with the same equal rights and the same rights to to live freely. And that's what most people want. And if there's a way to do that, that allows us to still hold on to our unique Israeli and Palestinian identities, then that's the way that I want us to work towards.

I think that I've learned that we're not as different as we think we are. A lot of us think that, like our nation is unique and our connection to this land is unique and our dreams are unique. But when you put people in the same room, we pretty much eat the same foods. We we are connected to the same historic places. And when we talk about what we want, we all want to have kids that can just go to school in peace and not not be behind security walls and checkpoints and and to just like live freely and enjoy life and find love and enjoy good food and like we want the same things. Maybe that's not a radical thing to say, but like, I think often people, when they do the dialogues, they they're kind of surprised by that. At first they're like, oh, we just want the same things. And and also, I'd say even within Israel there are there are close to 2 million Arab citizens of Israel, many who identify as Palestinians. And so there is interaction between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians, Israelis all the time. And and there are also places where coexistence already exists, like in places like Haifa or Akka, where people have largely equal rights between Jews and Arabs. Um, people largely get along. Um, but where there's inequality, there's obviously conflict. And so, you know, in my view, the more you can put people under a political regime where they have equal rights. and that includes also the right to self-determination for Israelis and Palestinians, which can be done through a two state solution or a confederation or a federation. I'm not really attached to one solution or the other, but I think what's important is that we have a political regime here between the river and the sea, that allows everyone to live with the same equal rights and the same rights to to live freely. And that's what most people want. And if there's a way to do that, that allows us to still hold on to our unique Israeli and Palestinian identities, then that's the way that I want us to work towards.

We'll be right back. So given that you've observed that people largely want the same things, what needs to change here? How realistic is it really to trust the other side, to remove that belief that Compromise is a weakness following such devastation and trauma.

We'll be right back. So given that you've observed that people largely want the same things, what needs to change here? How realistic is it really to trust the other side, to remove that belief that Compromise is a weakness following such devastation and trauma.

So compromise is definitely seen as a weakness here, especially after the destruction of Gaza on October 7th. You know, no one wants to compromise with the other side that's seen as as wicked. And, um, especially the governments of the two sides. Um, so there's very little desire to do that. But I have two children. I want them to grow up here in peace, and I'm not interested in being right. I'm interested in being alive. So if I have to compromise on something that's important to me, or share a holy place or or allow more freedom of movement or, you know, than there are things that I that I want to do. Because. Because to me, peace is more important than all of those other things. And I think peace is what will allow this place to, to thrive, you know, you know, look at World War Two after after World War two, there was all these European countries surrounded by walls and barbed wire and checkpoints and, you know, millions of people dead and a genocide in terms of the Holocaust. And and now look at Europe today. You know, you can get on a train in, in Italy and get off in Switzerland, and you've got a shared currency and all these independent states, they held on to their nationalism. You've still got France and you've still got Germany and you've got Switzerland, but you've got all these different nationalities deciding that they want to cooperate for the common good. And if they could do that in Europe, then we can do that in the Middle East. We're not that different. I think that's the kind of vision that I want to see happening here. But in order for that to happen, you need more people to commit to resolving problems through non-violence and resolving issues through diplomatic means. And and there are ways to do that. And I think this ceasefire is like just the tip of the iceberg of what can be achieved through a negotiation. Because now, finally, you know, the guns have fallen silent, at least for the first week. Um, and I hope that that that holds and that and that the negotiating process that led to the ceasefire continues into a more permanent solution.

So compromise is definitely seen as a weakness here, especially after the destruction of Gaza on October 7th. You know, no one wants to compromise with the other side that's seen as as wicked. And, um, especially the governments of the two sides. Um, so there's very little desire to do that. But I have two children. I want them to grow up here in peace, and I'm not interested in being right. I'm interested in being alive. So if I have to compromise on something that's important to me, or share a holy place or or allow more freedom of movement or, you know, than there are things that I that I want to do. Because. Because to me, peace is more important than all of those other things. And I think peace is what will allow this place to, to thrive, you know, you know, look at World War Two after after World War two, there was all these European countries surrounded by walls and barbed wire and checkpoints and, you know, millions of people dead and a genocide in terms of the Holocaust. And and now look at Europe today. You know, you can get on a train in, in Italy and get off in Switzerland, and you've got a shared currency and all these independent states, they held on to their nationalism. You've still got France and you've still got Germany and you've got Switzerland, but you've got all these different nationalities deciding that they want to cooperate for the common good. And if they could do that in Europe, then we can do that in the Middle East. We're not that different. I think that's the kind of vision that I want to see happening here. But in order for that to happen, you need more people to commit to resolving problems through non-violence and resolving issues through diplomatic means. And and there are ways to do that. And I think this ceasefire is like just the tip of the iceberg of what can be achieved through a negotiation. Because now, finally, you know, the guns have fallen silent, at least for the first week. Um, and I hope that that that holds and that and that the negotiating process that led to the ceasefire continues into a more permanent solution.

So what are some of those things? How does some of the ideas that you've just spoken about on compromise, how does that take hold more broadly?

So what are some of those things? How does some of the ideas that you've just spoken about on compromise, how does that take hold more broadly?

It's really hard if you think of other social movements that talked about social change. They they had many struggles. I often think of the suffragettes, you know, where they started 100 years ago. Not only did most men not want women to vote, but most women didn't want women to vote. Um, and or the LGBT rights movement where marriage equality was, you know, illegal in in many countries in the world. And today there's been a huge change in that climate action. And if you think about every one of those movements that maybe 40 or 50 years ago were just had zero support, aside from, you know, ten people in a living room and now are largely mainstream. The way they mainstream those ideas is by using the media is by having, uh, people running for political power that had those ideas is by writing books and making movies. And so, you know, I think, I think if you want to take an idea that's on the margins and mainstream it, you have to use the same strategies that were used by, you know, by the feminist movement and other movements that mainstreamed ideas that were that were maybe not so popular when they began. And I know that, you know, I work in a small organization. We have 70 kids coming to our programs, but there's a there's an organization called the Alliance for Middle East Peace, and there's 150 different Israeli-Palestinian peace organizations in that network, where together we have about 10,000 members doing all sorts of things. There's a group called Women Wage Peace, which is Women Coming Together. There are religious organizations. There's a group called chefs for peace where they cook together. There are many sport groups, um, where Israelis and Palestinians play sport together. Um, and I think that the more we have these kinds of movements and then also things like shared education. I think you just have to grow the very small seed that that we are into a much larger movement. And that's and that's, that's my vision for how to make sure that this is our last wall.

It's really hard if you think of other social movements that talked about social change. They they had many struggles. I often think of the suffragettes, you know, where they started 100 years ago. Not only did most men not want women to vote, but most women didn't want women to vote. Um, and or the LGBT rights movement where marriage equality was, you know, illegal in in many countries in the world. And today there's been a huge change in that climate action. And if you think about every one of those movements that maybe 40 or 50 years ago were just had zero support, aside from, you know, ten people in a living room and now are largely mainstream. The way they mainstream those ideas is by using the media is by having, uh, people running for political power that had those ideas is by writing books and making movies. And so, you know, I think, I think if you want to take an idea that's on the margins and mainstream it, you have to use the same strategies that were used by, you know, by the feminist movement and other movements that mainstreamed ideas that were that were maybe not so popular when they began. And I know that, you know, I work in a small organization. We have 70 kids coming to our programs, but there's a there's an organization called the Alliance for Middle East Peace, and there's 150 different Israeli-Palestinian peace organizations in that network, where together we have about 10,000 members doing all sorts of things. There's a group called Women Wage Peace, which is Women Coming Together. There are religious organizations. There's a group called chefs for peace where they cook together. There are many sport groups, um, where Israelis and Palestinians play sport together. Um, and I think that the more we have these kinds of movements and then also things like shared education. I think you just have to grow the very small seed that that we are into a much larger movement. And that's and that's, that's my vision for how to make sure that this is our last wall.

Now, the Australian government has expressed its support for a two state solution. That support, of course, is not shared by everyone. But do you believe a two state solution could work?

Now, the Australian government has expressed its support for a two state solution. That support, of course, is not shared by everyone. But do you believe a two state solution could work?

It really depends on what those two states are. So if those two states are, you know, led by Netanyahu and Hamas, I don't know that those two states will live in peace with each other. And so a two state solution can only work if it's if it's led by people who want a two state solution. And that's not something that can happen by anyone calling for it in Canberra or in Washington or in Berlin or any other place. It has to happen from here. And so I think, I think if we want to share this land, then the people here have to want to do that. And at the A moment. The two state solution is very unpopular here, both among Palestinians and among Israelis. You know, at the moment, if you look at the demographics between the river and the sea, there are about 7 million Jews and about 7 million Arabs. Neither side is going to leave. And I know, I know that there's a lot of people that have dreams of the other side. One day packing up and going to another place, and that's not going to happen. And that's my starting point in the peace work that I do, that not only are we both here, but I see that as a blessing. I see that as as we are designed to share this land together and and once we work out how to share this land together, this will be one of the most amazing places on earth. We have the holy places of three religions. We have incredible food, a wonderful climate. I think the whole world will want to visit here when there's peace, but we have to decide that that's the path we want to go to. And hopefully after the horror and so, so many innocent deaths that we've seen over the last 15 months will decide that now is the time to do that city.

It really depends on what those two states are. So if those two states are, you know, led by Netanyahu and Hamas, I don't know that those two states will live in peace with each other. And so a two state solution can only work if it's if it's led by people who want a two state solution. And that's not something that can happen by anyone calling for it in Canberra or in Washington or in Berlin or any other place. It has to happen from here. And so I think, I think if we want to share this land, then the people here have to want to do that. And at the A moment. The two state solution is very unpopular here, both among Palestinians and among Israelis. You know, at the moment, if you look at the demographics between the river and the sea, there are about 7 million Jews and about 7 million Arabs. Neither side is going to leave. And I know, I know that there's a lot of people that have dreams of the other side. One day packing up and going to another place, and that's not going to happen. And that's my starting point in the peace work that I do, that not only are we both here, but I see that as a blessing. I see that as as we are designed to share this land together and and once we work out how to share this land together, this will be one of the most amazing places on earth. We have the holy places of three religions. We have incredible food, a wonderful climate. I think the whole world will want to visit here when there's peace, but we have to decide that that's the path we want to go to. And hopefully after the horror and so, so many innocent deaths that we've seen over the last 15 months will decide that now is the time to do that city.

After everything you've witnessed, everything you've lived through, the trauma you described earlier. You sound optimistic to me. Is that fair to say? Are you optimistic?

After everything you've witnessed, everything you've lived through, the trauma you described earlier. You sound optimistic to me. Is that fair to say? Are you optimistic?

I'm optimistic because I live in a bubble where Israelis and Palestinians get along with each other despite our very, very different views. And very few people live in the bubble that I live in. I'm well aware of that. And the reason I'm optimistic is I get to taste peace every time I go to work. But most people don't have that. And so they're very pessimistic because we turn on our social media and we see each other at our worst all the time, and we see death and destruction and chaos. So I've recently written a book called The Holy and the broken, A cry for peace from a Land that Must Be Shared. And in that book I outline a vision not for tomorrow and not for next week, but what I would like to see happen in the next 20 years in order to make sure that this is our last war. We can look at our history in a way that allows us to embrace reconciliation and forgiveness and these sorts of things, and it's not an easy process. I know that what I'm talking about, probably a lot of people listening to the radio now and thinking, this guy's mad or naive or he doesn't understand anything or whatever, because most people haven't experienced what I've experienced in the dialogue. And I think, I think once people have that experience of of sitting with a person who, who was or is your enemy or is a former soldier or a Palestinian that's been in an Israeli prison and and talking to them about how to reconcile maybe the violence that they've done to other people and how to make sure that doesn't happen again. You know, once you have an open heart, like anything is possible.

I'm optimistic because I live in a bubble where Israelis and Palestinians get along with each other despite our very, very different views. And very few people live in the bubble that I live in. I'm well aware of that. And the reason I'm optimistic is I get to taste peace every time I go to work. But most people don't have that. And so they're very pessimistic because we turn on our social media and we see each other at our worst all the time, and we see death and destruction and chaos. So I've recently written a book called The Holy and the broken, A cry for peace from a Land that Must Be Shared. And in that book I outline a vision not for tomorrow and not for next week, but what I would like to see happen in the next 20 years in order to make sure that this is our last war. We can look at our history in a way that allows us to embrace reconciliation and forgiveness and these sorts of things, and it's not an easy process. I know that what I'm talking about, probably a lot of people listening to the radio now and thinking, this guy's mad or naive or he doesn't understand anything or whatever, because most people haven't experienced what I've experienced in the dialogue. And I think, I think once people have that experience of of sitting with a person who, who was or is your enemy or is a former soldier or a Palestinian that's been in an Israeli prison and and talking to them about how to reconcile maybe the violence that they've done to other people and how to make sure that doesn't happen again. You know, once you have an open heart, like anything is possible.

Itai, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience and insights and the important work that you do.

Itai, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience and insights and the important work that you do.

You're welcome. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole with production assistance from Chai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Chris Payne. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole with production assistance from Chai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Chris Payne. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.