Women in Afghanistan have had their freedoms crushed by the Taliban, which has enacted rules that chip away at their basic human rights.
They’ve long been banned from studying, working, going to a salon or a gym.
But over the last few months, the regime has cracked down even further, by implementing a raft of new “vice and virtue” laws.
Women are now forbidden from speaking or even praying in public. They’re also not allowed to show their bare faces in public, or to be heard singing or reading aloud. Even from inside their own homes.
Today, Australian National University scholar Susan Hutchinson, and human rights lawyer Azadah Raz Mohammad, on what these new laws have made life like for women in Afghanistan. And the global push by countries, including Australia, to hold the Taliban to account.
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From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday, November 18th. Women in Afghanistan have had their freedoms crushed for years by the Taliban, which has enacted rules that chip away at their basic human rights. They've long been banned from studying, working or going to a salon or the gym. But over the last few months, the regime has cracked down even further by implementing a raft of new vice and virtue laws. Women are now forbidden from speaking or even praying in public. They're also not allowed to show their bare faces in public, or to be heard singing or reading aloud, even from inside their own homes. Today, Australian National University scholar Susan Hutchinson and human rights lawyer Azada Raz Mohammed on what these new laws have made life like for women in Afghanistan and the global push by countries including Australia, to hold the Taliban to account. So, Susan, can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and the work you do? Yeah.
So my name is Susan Hutchinson. I'm the executive director of a small organization called Azadi, Iran. We are an Afghan women's rights organization and have been helping Afghan women's rights defenders and their families escape the Taliban since about 2021. We started as a network of volunteers and formalized into an organization about 18 months ago. I'm also undertaking a PhD on women, peace and security here at the Australian National University in Canberra.
And can you.
Please just remind us what happened on August 15th, 2021?
Well, I mean, those who were in the know weren't surprised that the Taliban started retaking regions and cities around the country after the US had negotiated directly with them instead of the elected government of Afghanistan. But everyone was shocked at the speed at which they retook the capital, Kabul.
Their images of fear and desperation, Afghan men, women clutching their babies and small children all running for their last chance to flee a life under the Taliban.
There were some really shocking images coming in from the city and from the airport. A final, frantic bid for freedom. Hundreds of Afghans chasing a US Air Force carrier climbing, clinging to the undercarriage. A lot of internationals kind of thought they were talking about Taliban 2.0 as being something a little bit less than what we knew of the Taliban the last time around, but we really knew better. And Afghan women knew better. We knew that they were in for something pretty horrendous.
And so I wanted to ask you about that. Are there any particular moments or stories that that do come to mind from the women that you've worked with and helped escape? That goes to just how much worse things have become since the Taliban seized control again.
I mean, it has been a story of of regression. It didn't take long for the Taliban to close the parks to women and children. They closed schools quite early. You know, the Taliban spokesman was saying that women will be allowed to pursue an education as long as it's in line with Sharia. While their fighters in Herat were turning students away from universities. But, you know, it has really progressed quite badly. Most recently we've seen, you know, there's been over 100 decrees and laws that have been passed that restrict women's rights and access to public space around the country. Most recently, there was quite a comprehensive law called the Law of Vice and virtue that was passed by the head of the Taliban, the supreme leader, that prevented women from speaking in public. So they were not allowed to even recite the Quran in their homes if it meant that their voices could be heard outside their homes. And it dictated the nature of the fabric of the clothing that they wore. But then, of course, even since then, the Minister for Vice and Virtue has said women are not even allowed to talk to other women in public.
Every moment you feel like you're in a prison, even breathing becomes difficult.
We're like dead bodies moving around. We can't talk. We can't do anything.
And what's very concerning is that, you know, in reality, with the Taliban, it can always get worse.
There's a ripple effect of fear that you feel when speaking to people here.
If we go out, we're scared. If we take a bus or remove our masks, we're scared. If we speak louder, we're scared. There's so much fear and stress. If we can't speak, then why go out at all? Why even live?
Women who have escaped divorce or abusive husbands are quite terrified. So we have, for example, one woman who worked for the rights of people with disabilities and other women, and she at the moment is terrified that she's going to be kidnapped by her in-laws. Ex-in-laws are trying to kidnap her so that they can take custody of her children. The Taliban would do nothing for her, and we have been unable to get her a visa to go to safety. She is, of course, unable to work on her own. She is unable to rent a house. We are trying to help her hide so that the people who are trying to kidnap her will not be able to do that. But you know, each of the cases that we look at has a range of very specific and unique threats against them, whether that be directly from the Taliban, whether that be from someone else who may be in in bed with the Taliban, or whether that may be from some sort of family member.
I mean, it's really hard to take in. One of the reasons I was so keen on doing this episode is because even though I had a vague idea of, you know, the way freedoms have been crushed for women in Afghanistan under the Taliban for years, I was still quite shocked by these new laws. So. So why were these new laws brought in now?
Well, I think the vice and virtue law was probably brought in as part of the Taliban's third anniversary of the celebration of their return to power. It did not entirely refer to women. It talked about a whole range of different aspects of the way they expected Afghans to exist in society. It banned women from wearing suits, for example. Um, but it also outlawed any acts of homosexuality. And I think it really, you know, after three years, they feel that they have a really firm grip on the country, and they felt able to make a written law like this, where in the past three years, the country has really been run by a sort of a patchwork of oral decrees and policies, more than what most people would recognize as a system of law that governs most other countries.
And so, Susan, can you tell me about what happened recently when a number of countries, including Australia, pledged to take the Taliban to the International Court of Justice over its oppression of women? So what's happening there?
Yeah. So it's a really.
Exciting statement that was made at the UN, where a group of allied countries have decided to act on a really little known clause in the convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, which says that if any state considers that there is a significant issue with the implementation of that treaty, then they can take that issue to the International Court of Justice. Australia was one of those countries, and that's a really important step for accountability and justice. And it's important also to make sure that we do what we can to ensure individual accountability for members of the Taliban. So that's the kind of thing that means that people get taken to the International Court of Justice for what is trying to be described as gender apartheid or other serious international crimes.
And so does this work, though, with a group like the Taliban? I mean, I understand a diplomatic note has been issued to the Taliban, but from the outside, I don't imagine the Taliban would necessarily be engaging in this process.
Well, you know, the Taliban have been wanting the international community to treat them like serious members of the community. Well, you know, if that's what you want. Well, here, have a have a court case. Um, that's what nation states do. They solve disputes at the International Court of Justice, and we have a dispute about the way they are treating women in their country, the way they are interpreting and applying this particular convention. But it's a very delicate line to be able to try and navigate.
Well, thank you so much, Susan, for your time.
My pleasure.
After the break, human rights lawyer Azita Raz Mohammed on pushback from the international community to hold the Taliban to account. So, Aizada, first off, can you just tell me a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
Thank you so much for Samantha, for having me. I'm Aizada Raz Mohammed. I'm based in Melbourne. I'm doing a PhD at Melbourne Law School, and I'm also the co-founder of the Hambali campaign, working on Afghanistan policy and legal research. And I'm also a legal advisor for Atlantic Council, the Strategic Litigation Project, where we're working on the codification of gender apartheid as as a crime under the crimes against the draft Crimes Against Humanity convention.
So tell me a bit about that, because you are trying to assist women in Afghanistan in particular by doing this, by getting the United Nations to codify gender apartheid as a separate crime into itself. And, like you say, have it included in a new United Nations treaty on crimes against humanity. So, first of all, can you begin by telling us what exactly is gender apartheid?
This is a situation where we call it as gender apartheid, where one gender group institutionally and systematically imposes such inhumane restrictions over the other gender group or groups. We believe that the codification of the crime of gender apartheid will enable victims and survivors to hold states and individuals, like Taliban accountable for the totality of the crime that they are committing against women and the Taliban systemized oppression and domination of Afghan women and girls actually underscores the need for an inclusion of gender in the definition of apartheid. So the draft convention is an appropriate and important legal avenue to recognize and codify the crime of gender apartheid and a legal development that urgently is needed in the situation of Afghanistan.
So tell me, though, how might this actually help the international community to hold the Taliban to account for these, you know, punishing laws that are being used to crush women's freedoms.
As you have seen in the case of South Africa? Um, the legal recognition and criminalization of the apartheid enabled the international community to intervene and to to topple the apartheid system that they had. We believe that the same international mobilization we need in the case of Afghanistan. We believe that the legal recognition and criminalization of gender apartheid emboldens and further mobilizes diplomatic, legal and social movements. The word apartheid itself carries a significant gravitas, which would help they encourage the states to act, too.
Malala Yousafzai, Nobel Peace Prize winner.
It has been three years that Afghanistan has been living under a system of gender apartheid.
And we are really worried that our three years on, after Taliban's taking power, the international community has slowly started to normalise it. And sometimes we are also very worried that they will actually accept a Taliban as a legitimate power or government in the in for Afghanistan.
Our leaders to step up and call it a crime against humanity. Because it is. We should not be living in a world where we are accepting a ban on girls education, when we are, when we are accepting it as normal. This cannot be excused.
And Asada, you left Afghanistan at the age of seven when the Taliban first came into power. So what is it actually been like for you to watch this so-called Taliban 2.0 oppressed women even further, especially with recent new laws.
Yes, true. I left Afghanistan at the age of seven, and this is somehow like a deja vu. So unfortunately, my early childhood I remember that we were living under the fear of the Taliban siege, that they had a siege for two years on my village. It's just, um, so sad that unbelievable for me that Afghanistan has actually returned back to the same situation that we thought that, uh, Afghanistan was going heading towards a better future for women, for its people. Um, but unfortunately, I feel I feel a sense of deep betrayal by a lot of, um, by a lot of actors who were involved in Afghanistan, by a lot of actors who had the means to change things. Um, I don't know how the future holds for Afghanistan.
Well, thank you so much, Aizada, for your time.
Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for the.
For the opportunity.
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.