From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday, January 9th. They're on opposite sides of one of the world's most violent political conflicts, and represent groups who often express extreme animosity towards each other. One refers to those groups as the occupied and the occupier. But what do the Israeli and Palestinian representatives in Australia actually make of each other? Especially now when relations between Israel and Australia are, if not at an all time low, then pretty close to it. Today, Foreign Affairs and National security correspondent Matthew Not on why both men are famously reluctant interviewees granted him an interview at the same time and what, 15 months into the war in Gaza they wish that Australians knew. Okay. So, Matt, before we get into these two ambassadors, can you just briefly bring us up to speed on how turbulent I guess the past year has been in terms of Australia's relationship with Israel? Like, why has it become so acrimonious?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday, January 9th. They're on opposite sides of one of the world's most violent political conflicts, and represent groups who often express extreme animosity towards each other. One refers to those groups as the occupied and the occupier. But what do the Israeli and Palestinian representatives in Australia actually make of each other? Especially now when relations between Israel and Australia are, if not at an all time low, then pretty close to it. Today, Foreign Affairs and National security correspondent Matthew Not on why both men are famously reluctant interviewees granted him an interview at the same time and what, 15 months into the war in Gaza they wish that Australians knew. Okay. So, Matt, before we get into these two ambassadors, can you just briefly bring us up to speed on how turbulent I guess the past year has been in terms of Australia's relationship with Israel? Like, why has it become so acrimonious?

So Australia and Israel traditionally have been close friends, for example, in votes at the United Nations. Australia has tended to vote in line with Israel and the United States, very much in the minority in the international community. We've seen big changes in that over the past year. A key point was a little over a year ago now, when the Albanese government did vote in favour of a cease fire at the UN for the war in Gaza. That was an important turning point, and things have really gone downhill from there in terms of the bilateral relationship. We saw, for example, at the end of last year, a big moment, the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, actually took to X, formerly known as Twitter, and really strongly criticized the Albanese government.

So Australia and Israel traditionally have been close friends, for example, in votes at the United Nations. Australia has tended to vote in line with Israel and the United States, very much in the minority in the international community. We've seen big changes in that over the past year. A key point was a little over a year ago now, when the Albanese government did vote in favour of a cease fire at the UN for the war in Gaza. That was an important turning point, and things have really gone downhill from there in terms of the bilateral relationship. We saw, for example, at the end of last year, a big moment, the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, actually took to X, formerly known as Twitter, and really strongly criticized the Albanese government.

The prime minister has failed to personally respond to accusations from Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu following yesterday's arson attack at a Melbourne synagogue. In a post.

The prime minister has failed to personally respond to accusations from Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu following yesterday's arson attack at a Melbourne synagogue. In a post.

Benjamin Netanyahu said it's impossible to separate this reprehensible act from what he calls the extreme anti-Israel position of the labor government.

Benjamin Netanyahu said it's impossible to separate this reprehensible act from what he calls the extreme anti-Israel position of the labor government.

So that went to show that the anger in Israel went right up to the top. And that followed other really tense and acrimonious moments in the relationship we saw last April, for example, the the tragic killing of Australian aid worker Zomi Frankcom, who was working in Gaza for World Central Kitchen. The government and many many Australians were very angry about the fact that she had been killed by the Israeli Defence Forces. And so that again shows that there's been a lot of fractures in this relationship that had once been very close.

So that went to show that the anger in Israel went right up to the top. And that followed other really tense and acrimonious moments in the relationship we saw last April, for example, the the tragic killing of Australian aid worker Zomi Frankcom, who was working in Gaza for World Central Kitchen. The government and many many Australians were very angry about the fact that she had been killed by the Israeli Defence Forces. And so that again shows that there's been a lot of fractures in this relationship that had once been very close.

And so, I guess just to play devil's advocate here, you know, some listeners might be thinking, well, why does our relationship with Israel even matter? Like, why is our attorney general, Mark Dreyfus, who's just announced he's about to go to Israel to try to repair this relationship? Why does it actually matter, given that, you know, really only a tiny proportion of Australians come from a Jewish or an Arabic background?

And so, I guess just to play devil's advocate here, you know, some listeners might be thinking, well, why does our relationship with Israel even matter? Like, why is our attorney general, Mark Dreyfus, who's just announced he's about to go to Israel to try to repair this relationship? Why does it actually matter, given that, you know, really only a tiny proportion of Australians come from a Jewish or an Arabic background?

Well, Australia, as a Western democratic country, you know, we've always seen as having shared values with a country like Israel, which is a democracy. It's also a tech leader. The two countries have shared intelligence. Israel is very sophisticated in that terrain. Opposition Leader Peter Dutton, for example, has spoken recently about how intelligence from Israel helped prevent a terror attack on Australian soil a few years ago. An aeroplane hijacking. So that shows there are important aspects to this relationship. The other element is the very close relationship between the United States and Israel. The United States is Israel's big defender, a supplier of weapons. It's also our closest security partner. So it's often been our relationship with Israel has often been closely connected to our relationship with the United States.

Well, Australia, as a Western democratic country, you know, we've always seen as having shared values with a country like Israel, which is a democracy. It's also a tech leader. The two countries have shared intelligence. Israel is very sophisticated in that terrain. Opposition Leader Peter Dutton, for example, has spoken recently about how intelligence from Israel helped prevent a terror attack on Australian soil a few years ago. An aeroplane hijacking. So that shows there are important aspects to this relationship. The other element is the very close relationship between the United States and Israel. The United States is Israel's big defender, a supplier of weapons. It's also our closest security partner. So it's often been our relationship with Israel has often been closely connected to our relationship with the United States.

So if we took a more aggressive or less supportive stance towards Israel, that could potentially alienate us from, say, Donald Trump, who is, of course, very pro-Israel, is that sort of what we're potentially looking at?

So if we took a more aggressive or less supportive stance towards Israel, that could potentially alienate us from, say, Donald Trump, who is, of course, very pro-Israel, is that sort of what we're potentially looking at?

That's a live discussion right now, particularly with Donald Trump coming back to the white House within days, has been a very strong supporter, not just of Israel, but a close, uh, close political ally of Benjamin Netanyahu as well. This is something that is being discussed amongst policy makers, amongst foreign policy thinkers in Canberra, is how will the Albanese government's position on Israel, which has become increasingly critical and increasingly a delinked from the US? Will that impact on our relationship with the US or as an independent sovereign country? Are we allowed to vote how we want at the UN on issues like the Middle East?

That's a live discussion right now, particularly with Donald Trump coming back to the white House within days, has been a very strong supporter, not just of Israel, but a close, uh, close political ally of Benjamin Netanyahu as well. This is something that is being discussed amongst policy makers, amongst foreign policy thinkers in Canberra, is how will the Albanese government's position on Israel, which has become increasingly critical and increasingly a delinked from the US? Will that impact on our relationship with the US or as an independent sovereign country? Are we allowed to vote how we want at the UN on issues like the Middle East?

Okay, so let's get to your interviews then, with the ambassadors. Let's start with the Israeli ambassador. I mean, what do you think Amir Maimon actually wanted to accomplish by even granting you this interview?

Okay, so let's get to your interviews then, with the ambassadors. Let's start with the Israeli ambassador. I mean, what do you think Amir Maimon actually wanted to accomplish by even granting you this interview?

Yeah, the Israeli ambassador arrived in Australia in early 2022, and he's been very much a behind the scenes figure. He's very active, in meeting officials in Canberra and promoting Israel's message, which of course it is the job of a diplomat to do. He hasn't done a lot of media that hasn't been his focus. Uh, he did speak to the National Press Club. That was right after the October 7th attacks, which was such a big and tragic moment for, uh, Israel. But at the end of last year, he gave a press conference at the Israeli embassy in Canberra, which was unusual. And then, yes, agreed to this interview with me that I'd been asking for for quite a while. And I think there is a recognition there that the relationship between Australia and Israel has sunk to such lows, that there is a need to stabilise and try and get this relationship back on track. And look, the war in Gaza has been hugely controversial, to put it mildly. We've seen the huge protests in Australian capital cities. We've seen, as I said, Australia under this government changing its voting record at the United Nations. And I think the ambassador understands that he has to be out there communicating Israel's point of view.

Yeah, the Israeli ambassador arrived in Australia in early 2022, and he's been very much a behind the scenes figure. He's very active, in meeting officials in Canberra and promoting Israel's message, which of course it is the job of a diplomat to do. He hasn't done a lot of media that hasn't been his focus. Uh, he did speak to the National Press Club. That was right after the October 7th attacks, which was such a big and tragic moment for, uh, Israel. But at the end of last year, he gave a press conference at the Israeli embassy in Canberra, which was unusual. And then, yes, agreed to this interview with me that I'd been asking for for quite a while. And I think there is a recognition there that the relationship between Australia and Israel has sunk to such lows, that there is a need to stabilise and try and get this relationship back on track. And look, the war in Gaza has been hugely controversial, to put it mildly. We've seen the huge protests in Australian capital cities. We've seen, as I said, Australia under this government changing its voting record at the United Nations. And I think the ambassador understands that he has to be out there communicating Israel's point of view.

And I really wondered about the fact that the Israeli ambassador actually brought his own personal experiences, his fears for his own family into his conversation with you. I don't imagine that's something that ambassadors perhaps do a lot, or diplomats. So can you tell me what he said about that? And whether you thought that that actually reflected perhaps even a bit of desperation, I guess, on his part to get Australians on his side?

And I really wondered about the fact that the Israeli ambassador actually brought his own personal experiences, his fears for his own family into his conversation with you. I don't imagine that's something that ambassadors perhaps do a lot, or diplomats. So can you tell me what he said about that? And whether you thought that that actually reflected perhaps even a bit of desperation, I guess, on his part to get Australians on his side?

Yeah. The Israeli ambassador has had a very interesting life story. He served in the Israeli military for 14 years in the paratrooper unit. Yes. As you're right, he's a grandfather. His grandson has been called up to serve in the IDF, like many other young Israelis have. And what he was saying to me was that he thought that at this stage of his life, that wouldn't be necessary anymore, that military conscription wouldn't be needed. And he said people like him, his generation had failed to provide Israel with the security they need. He was talking about, you know, he waits, looking at his phone, fearful of bad news about his grandson. And that's the reality he lives with. He feels that, yes, he hasn't necessarily been able to tell the full story of Israel. For example, something he was talking to me about was how he was rather bemused, a bit baffled by the the alarm in Australia in 2022, when the Solomon Islands signed a security pact with China, there was a lot of concern about a possible military base. And he was saying, well, that's 1400km away from Australia, and you're all alarmed about this. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by adversaries on all sides. How close all this is? You know how up close it is, he said. I wish our adversaries could be as far away of that. He says it's insane that this is the situation Israelis have to live with.

Yeah. The Israeli ambassador has had a very interesting life story. He served in the Israeli military for 14 years in the paratrooper unit. Yes. As you're right, he's a grandfather. His grandson has been called up to serve in the IDF, like many other young Israelis have. And what he was saying to me was that he thought that at this stage of his life, that wouldn't be necessary anymore, that military conscription wouldn't be needed. And he said people like him, his generation had failed to provide Israel with the security they need. He was talking about, you know, he waits, looking at his phone, fearful of bad news about his grandson. And that's the reality he lives with. He feels that, yes, he hasn't necessarily been able to tell the full story of Israel. For example, something he was talking to me about was how he was rather bemused, a bit baffled by the the alarm in Australia in 2022, when the Solomon Islands signed a security pact with China, there was a lot of concern about a possible military base. And he was saying, well, that's 1400km away from Australia, and you're all alarmed about this. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by adversaries on all sides. How close all this is? You know how up close it is, he said. I wish our adversaries could be as far away of that. He says it's insane that this is the situation Israelis have to live with.

Which brings us to, I guess, what does he feel about the prospect for a two state solution? I mean, does he support one? Because obviously, like you mentioned earlier, our government, of course, has been pushing more strongly for one as as the years have progressed.

Which brings us to, I guess, what does he feel about the prospect for a two state solution? I mean, does he support one? Because obviously, like you mentioned earlier, our government, of course, has been pushing more strongly for one as as the years have progressed.

Yes. It's interesting. He's a career diplomat, really, who would represent the government of the day? The government of the day right now in Israel is a very far right coalition that has no interest, as far as we can tell, of pursuing the creation of a Palestinian state. His view was, uh, look, the international community, uh, cannot pressure us into doing this. He was essentially saying that we're living this reality. You're far away looking at this in a rather abstract way. We're dealing with the realities on the ground. So he was emphasizing the obstacles that are there right now to a two state solution, which are formidable. The fact that the war in Gaza is still going. Uh, Israelis were absolutely shocked and traumatized by the October 7th attacks and are not in a mood to make concessions to their Palestinian neighbors. Hamas has been controlling Gaza, while the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate force, has been controlling the West Bank. So who do we negotiate here? What would be the status of Jerusalem? Where would the borders be drawn? He did say that there is a prospect of this happening in the future, but it will require leadership on both sides to make it happen. And the conditions aren't there right now for that.

Yes. It's interesting. He's a career diplomat, really, who would represent the government of the day? The government of the day right now in Israel is a very far right coalition that has no interest, as far as we can tell, of pursuing the creation of a Palestinian state. His view was, uh, look, the international community, uh, cannot pressure us into doing this. He was essentially saying that we're living this reality. You're far away looking at this in a rather abstract way. We're dealing with the realities on the ground. So he was emphasizing the obstacles that are there right now to a two state solution, which are formidable. The fact that the war in Gaza is still going. Uh, Israelis were absolutely shocked and traumatized by the October 7th attacks and are not in a mood to make concessions to their Palestinian neighbors. Hamas has been controlling Gaza, while the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate force, has been controlling the West Bank. So who do we negotiate here? What would be the status of Jerusalem? Where would the borders be drawn? He did say that there is a prospect of this happening in the future, but it will require leadership on both sides to make it happen. And the conditions aren't there right now for that.

And yet, when the Israeli ambassador held a press conference in Canberra last month, he actually heaped praise upon his Palestinian counterpart, Izzat Abdulhadi, who, of course, you've also spoken to. So tell me what Maiman said about his counterpart.

And yet, when the Israeli ambassador held a press conference in Canberra last month, he actually heaped praise upon his Palestinian counterpart, Izzat Abdulhadi, who, of course, you've also spoken to. So tell me what Maiman said about his counterpart.

Yes. So he said that he has lots of respect, uh, for, uh, the Palestinian envoy. But but he went even further than that. He said he's a wonderful man. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a diplomat. You expect diplomats to use nice language? He's a real fine gentleman. So these were very, very complimentary remarks.

Yes. So he said that he has lots of respect, uh, for, uh, the Palestinian envoy. But but he went even further than that. He said he's a wonderful man. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a diplomat. You expect diplomats to use nice language? He's a real fine gentleman. So these were very, very complimentary remarks.

We'll be right back. So, Matt, I want to turn now to the de facto Palestinian ambassador, Izzat Abdulhadi. He's actually just left his post after about 18 years in the job. So can you please tell me a little bit about him and what he actually made of what the Israeli ambassador has said about him.

We'll be right back. So, Matt, I want to turn now to the de facto Palestinian ambassador, Izzat Abdulhadi. He's actually just left his post after about 18 years in the job. So can you please tell me a little bit about him and what he actually made of what the Israeli ambassador has said about him.

Yes. Now, Izzat Abdulhadi is not technically an ambassador. That's. That's the difference. Because Australia does not recognize Palestine as a state. We describe him as an envoy or the top representative. It's not an official diplomatic mission in the way that other countries have. That's the reason why he's been able to stay here for so long. Abdulhadi came to Australia not as a political figure, not representing any of the main Palestinian political parties, but he'd worked for almost two decades in a civil society and non-government organization that was promoting economic development and human rights in Palestine. So he comes from that world, that NGO world. His reaction was interesting because he said that, yes, he and the Israeli ambassador had had several conversations on the sidelines of some events, but they don't know each other particularly well. Ah, they had hadn't met, for example, since the war in Gaza. He said he thinks there's a different dynamic there. He described Israel as the occupying power, and he's representing the colonized country, and that it's easier for the occupying power or someone representing that country to extend generosity in that way. That was his perspective of it. When I asked him about it.

Yes. Now, Izzat Abdulhadi is not technically an ambassador. That's. That's the difference. Because Australia does not recognize Palestine as a state. We describe him as an envoy or the top representative. It's not an official diplomatic mission in the way that other countries have. That's the reason why he's been able to stay here for so long. Abdulhadi came to Australia not as a political figure, not representing any of the main Palestinian political parties, but he'd worked for almost two decades in a civil society and non-government organization that was promoting economic development and human rights in Palestine. So he comes from that world, that NGO world. His reaction was interesting because he said that, yes, he and the Israeli ambassador had had several conversations on the sidelines of some events, but they don't know each other particularly well. Ah, they had hadn't met, for example, since the war in Gaza. He said he thinks there's a different dynamic there. He described Israel as the occupying power, and he's representing the colonized country, and that it's easier for the occupying power or someone representing that country to extend generosity in that way. That was his perspective of it. When I asked him about it.

And so what does he think about the prospect of a two state solution?

And so what does he think about the prospect of a two state solution?

He still thinks that it's the most feasible outcome, the best possible outcome for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That's not a view that's universally shared. But he still thinks the best thing to do would be to establish a Palestinian state, he said. That cannot be underestimated how important that is, that that would really do huge things for the Palestinian people to have more autonomy over their lives.

He still thinks that it's the most feasible outcome, the best possible outcome for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That's not a view that's universally shared. But he still thinks the best thing to do would be to establish a Palestinian state, he said. That cannot be underestimated how important that is, that that would really do huge things for the Palestinian people to have more autonomy over their lives.

And so what do Palestinian activists here actually think of the job that Izzat Abdulhadi has done? I'm just wondering if they're frustrated, because I know that you and I spoke before recording, and you said that the Palestinian envoy, you know, he is hesitant to call Israel's actions in Gaza an act of genocide, as many Palestinian activists do insist is the case. So what's his standing here?

And so what do Palestinian activists here actually think of the job that Izzat Abdulhadi has done? I'm just wondering if they're frustrated, because I know that you and I spoke before recording, and you said that the Palestinian envoy, you know, he is hesitant to call Israel's actions in Gaza an act of genocide, as many Palestinian activists do insist is the case. So what's his standing here?

When we spoke initially in 2023, relatively soon after the war began, it was interesting to me he didn't leap into the idea of calling the Israeli assault a genocide. He said, we still need more evidence on that. Now he does use that term. He says what we've seen from the war since now, look, we've seen South Africa bring a case at the International Court of Justice. It's a term he used now. But yes, he's a very thoughtful person, I would say. He's not super, super political. He's quite analytical. I've thought he speaks more. Kind of like a university professor. He views things in a very broad way. He doesn't speak in a short, snappy political soundbites. Um, he's also been very complimentary of what the government has done, the moves that it's made. You know, we've seen very angry protests at the government. We've seen MPs offices, uh, vandalized. There's been a lot of anger among the pro-Palestinian cause in Australia. That's not his style. He's saying, look, essentially, I've been here a long time and I've seen how little impact we've had in the past. Now, the government's listening to our arguments. They're not necessarily voting with Israel at the United Nations. So he sees a lot of progress in terms of the relationship. Uh, I can imagine, uh, people in the Palestinian cause who would want someone who's a bit more, uh, fiery, a bit more forthright. Uh, these are kind of the times we live in. That's often how you get attention. We don't know yet who his successor will be, but I'll be interested if there, uh, perhaps, uh, more of a forthright, uh, character than him who was a very, uh, thoughtful envoy.

When we spoke initially in 2023, relatively soon after the war began, it was interesting to me he didn't leap into the idea of calling the Israeli assault a genocide. He said, we still need more evidence on that. Now he does use that term. He says what we've seen from the war since now, look, we've seen South Africa bring a case at the International Court of Justice. It's a term he used now. But yes, he's a very thoughtful person, I would say. He's not super, super political. He's quite analytical. I've thought he speaks more. Kind of like a university professor. He views things in a very broad way. He doesn't speak in a short, snappy political soundbites. Um, he's also been very complimentary of what the government has done, the moves that it's made. You know, we've seen very angry protests at the government. We've seen MPs offices, uh, vandalized. There's been a lot of anger among the pro-Palestinian cause in Australia. That's not his style. He's saying, look, essentially, I've been here a long time and I've seen how little impact we've had in the past. Now, the government's listening to our arguments. They're not necessarily voting with Israel at the United Nations. So he sees a lot of progress in terms of the relationship. Uh, I can imagine, uh, people in the Palestinian cause who would want someone who's a bit more, uh, fiery, a bit more forthright. Uh, these are kind of the times we live in. That's often how you get attention. We don't know yet who his successor will be, but I'll be interested if there, uh, perhaps, uh, more of a forthright, uh, character than him who was a very, uh, thoughtful envoy.

I mean, is there anyone within the community here or in the in the occupied territories who would be pushing for someone who's more, I guess, fiery, to be the ambassador here? Because I was quite surprised that the Palestinian envoy actually wasn't just supportive of labor government, but actually, you know, had a warning for Arab voters here. So I guess tell us about that, that that warning and whether you think, you know, this could lead to some sort of backlash and people really wanting a Palestinian envoy who is much more aggressive, I guess.

I mean, is there anyone within the community here or in the in the occupied territories who would be pushing for someone who's more, I guess, fiery, to be the ambassador here? Because I was quite surprised that the Palestinian envoy actually wasn't just supportive of labor government, but actually, you know, had a warning for Arab voters here. So I guess tell us about that, that that warning and whether you think, you know, this could lead to some sort of backlash and people really wanting a Palestinian envoy who is much more aggressive, I guess.

Well, yes, he told me about that. That was interesting. In an interview last year, uh, he said that he thinks there's been a lot of progress under this labor government. And he also spoke quite directly to voters of Middle Eastern heritage. For example, there's a lot in safe Labour seats in western Sydney. And he said, uh, he advised them against taking out revenge on the government at the ballot box. And he told me he actually got called in by DFAT for a rebuke. And they told him that this is essentially interference in domestic Australian politics, and you shouldn't be doing this. He stood his ground and said he's communicating like he feels he should. Uh, yes. So, so interesting to see how that changes in the future.

Well, yes, he told me about that. That was interesting. In an interview last year, uh, he said that he thinks there's been a lot of progress under this labor government. And he also spoke quite directly to voters of Middle Eastern heritage. For example, there's a lot in safe Labour seats in western Sydney. And he said, uh, he advised them against taking out revenge on the government at the ballot box. And he told me he actually got called in by DFAT for a rebuke. And they told him that this is essentially interference in domestic Australian politics, and you shouldn't be doing this. He stood his ground and said he's communicating like he feels he should. Uh, yes. So, so interesting to see how that changes in the future.

And I guess just to wrap up, Matt, I just wanted to ask you, so is there a feeling now either in Canberra or in Parliament House or within the Jewish community in particular? Uh, a sort of real watchfulness about who will take over as the Palestinian envoy?

And I guess just to wrap up, Matt, I just wanted to ask you, so is there a feeling now either in Canberra or in Parliament House or within the Jewish community in particular? Uh, a sort of real watchfulness about who will take over as the Palestinian envoy?

Uh, yes. It will be interesting because he essentially set up this job. It didn't really exist before him. He told me about how in the first years, he had to do it with no money to do the job, because there were sanctions on Palestine at the time. So he's built up this quasi embassy. Yeah, I think there will be anticipation about it and whether the new envoy will have a different style or not. Yeah, we're entering an election year. This issue will probably be a factor in some seats. You know, traditionally we would say foreign policy doesn't matter in elections. But this issue has been so emotional for many Australians on both sides. So how this plays out now as we get closer to an election will be very interesting and quite impactful. I don't think the government wants this to be a headline election issue.

Uh, yes. It will be interesting because he essentially set up this job. It didn't really exist before him. He told me about how in the first years, he had to do it with no money to do the job, because there were sanctions on Palestine at the time. So he's built up this quasi embassy. Yeah, I think there will be anticipation about it and whether the new envoy will have a different style or not. Yeah, we're entering an election year. This issue will probably be a factor in some seats. You know, traditionally we would say foreign policy doesn't matter in elections. But this issue has been so emotional for many Australians on both sides. So how this plays out now as we get closer to an election will be very interesting and quite impactful. I don't think the government wants this to be a headline election issue.

Okay, well, definitely a space to watch closely then. So thank you so much, Matt, as always for your time.

Okay, well, definitely a space to watch closely then. So thank you so much, Matt, as always for your time.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.