From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Wednesday, January 8th. In what has to be one of the more stunning political reversals of fortune, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has resigned.

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Wednesday, January 8th. In what has to be one of the more stunning political reversals of fortune, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has resigned.

I intend to resign as party leader, as prime minister after the party selects its next leader.

I intend to resign as party leader, as prime minister after the party selects its next leader.

So what happened to the former golden boy of progressive politics? He was, after all, the man seen as the good cop in North American politics for so long the counterpoint to Donald Trump. Today, digital foreign editor Chris Zappone on the downfall of Justin Trudeau after nearly a decade in power, and how a new Canadian prime minister might impact the rest of us. So, Chris, before we get into why this is such a big deal, can you just briefly tell us who is Justin Trudeau?

So what happened to the former golden boy of progressive politics? He was, after all, the man seen as the good cop in North American politics for so long the counterpoint to Donald Trump. Today, digital foreign editor Chris Zappone on the downfall of Justin Trudeau after nearly a decade in power, and how a new Canadian prime minister might impact the rest of us. So, Chris, before we get into why this is such a big deal, can you just briefly tell us who is Justin Trudeau?

So Justin Trudeau is one of the longest serving prime ministers in Canada. He is the son of a very famous Canadian prime minister, who I know you're familiar with, Pierre Trudeau, so he comes from sort of a political royalty in Canada. He rose to power basically by revitalizing the face of the Canadian Liberal Party in 2015.

So Justin Trudeau is one of the longest serving prime ministers in Canada. He is the son of a very famous Canadian prime minister, who I know you're familiar with, Pierre Trudeau, so he comes from sort of a political royalty in Canada. He rose to power basically by revitalizing the face of the Canadian Liberal Party in 2015.

During the election campaign, Justin Trudeau was the star attraction and that star power translated into votes. He takes office with a strong majority and high expectations from voters for rapid and positive change from the outgoing government.

During the election campaign, Justin Trudeau was the star attraction and that star power translated into votes. He takes office with a strong majority and high expectations from voters for rapid and positive change from the outgoing government.

And he really represented what was seen as kind of the optimistic profile of the the liberal democracy at that time. Trudeau presented himself as, as the sort of the tolerant, the youthful. He was photogenic. He had a very attractive wife as well.

And he really represented what was seen as kind of the optimistic profile of the the liberal democracy at that time. Trudeau presented himself as, as the sort of the tolerant, the youthful. He was photogenic. He had a very attractive wife as well.

Yeah. He's cute. He's all right.

Yeah. He's cute. He's all right.

Yeah, he's super smoking hot.

Yeah, he's super smoking hot.

Trudeau, you know, was a sort of a self-styled defender of of human rights.

Trudeau, you know, was a sort of a self-styled defender of of human rights.

This is a wonderful night to open our hearts and welcome in people who are fleeing extraordinarily difficult situations. But it's not just about sort.

This is a wonderful night to open our hearts and welcome in people who are fleeing extraordinarily difficult situations. But it's not just about sort.

Of gender equality. He was very big on the environment. He really promoted a, I think, maybe a sort of a culture or ethos of forgiveness and tolerance for past wrongs in Canadian society. And he really in that way, he became emblematic of liberal democracy right at the time when this, this other sort of populism was on the rise in the early years, he really captivated a good part of the chattering class in Canada and beyond.

Of gender equality. He was very big on the environment. He really promoted a, I think, maybe a sort of a culture or ethos of forgiveness and tolerance for past wrongs in Canadian society. And he really in that way, he became emblematic of liberal democracy right at the time when this, this other sort of populism was on the rise in the early years, he really captivated a good part of the chattering class in Canada and beyond.

And so why has he quit then?

And so why has he quit then?

It's just the accumulation of too many negative headlines and scandals over the years. I mean, this happens to any politician, but he'd been in power for nine years, which is quite, quite a bit of time. And in those years he'd weathered a few storms. There were some issues around corruption probes. So there was a finding that he was guilty of a conflict of interest by Canada's ethics commissioner. So they ruled that he had broken conflict of interest rules, accepting a holiday. So that was in 2017 that he did not disclose. There are other things as well. So there's a scandal in 2017 where it emerged that when he was in college or when he was in university, he actually participated in a party where he was dressed in blackface. So this clashed mightily with his profile as a tolerant, modern politician. And I know, Sam, I think you mentioned that you had your own interaction with Justin Trudeau in his college years. So I thought.

It's just the accumulation of too many negative headlines and scandals over the years. I mean, this happens to any politician, but he'd been in power for nine years, which is quite, quite a bit of time. And in those years he'd weathered a few storms. There were some issues around corruption probes. So there was a finding that he was guilty of a conflict of interest by Canada's ethics commissioner. So they ruled that he had broken conflict of interest rules, accepting a holiday. So that was in 2017 that he did not disclose. There are other things as well. So there's a scandal in 2017 where it emerged that when he was in college or when he was in university, he actually participated in a party where he was dressed in blackface. So this clashed mightily with his profile as a tolerant, modern politician. And I know, Sam, I think you mentioned that you had your own interaction with Justin Trudeau in his college years. So I thought.

Well, in a in a very minor way, but I did. I attended the same university as Justin Trudeau and we were in the same English class. But. But I do have to point out that this is one of those freshman English classes when there's, you know, probably a couple hundred people. But, I mean, I think it was a testament to sort of the frisson, I guess, that surrounds the Trudeau family and Justin Trudeau that, you know, even then, before he entered politics, you know, you would hand in your paper outside the classroom in a little basket and you'd see his paper with his name on it, and everyone would be like, oh my God. Justin Trudeau.

Well, in a in a very minor way, but I did. I attended the same university as Justin Trudeau and we were in the same English class. But. But I do have to point out that this is one of those freshman English classes when there's, you know, probably a couple hundred people. But, I mean, I think it was a testament to sort of the frisson, I guess, that surrounds the Trudeau family and Justin Trudeau that, you know, even then, before he entered politics, you know, you would hand in your paper outside the classroom in a little basket and you'd see his paper with his name on it, and everyone would be like, oh my God. Justin Trudeau.

So so you could feel the magnetism even then.

So so you could feel the magnetism even then.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, they were the Kennedys of Canada. You know, I mean, even growing up as a child, when I really wasn't aware of politics very much at all. You know, his father, Pierre Trudeau, was in power and and there legitimately was Trudeau mania. I mean, he was treated like an absolute rock star. And Justin Trudeau really, I guess, inherited that. I mean, I was reading just the other day, one former European leader from the Group of seven countries told The New York Times that when Justin Trudeau was early in his prime ministership, that people would line up to take selfies with him. I mean, this is like he was treated like a rock star, and that really does follow how his dad was treated. Yeah.

I mean, they were the Kennedys of Canada. You know, I mean, even growing up as a child, when I really wasn't aware of politics very much at all. You know, his father, Pierre Trudeau, was in power and and there legitimately was Trudeau mania. I mean, he was treated like an absolute rock star. And Justin Trudeau really, I guess, inherited that. I mean, I was reading just the other day, one former European leader from the Group of seven countries told The New York Times that when Justin Trudeau was early in his prime ministership, that people would line up to take selfies with him. I mean, this is like he was treated like a rock star, and that really does follow how his dad was treated. Yeah.

And there were I think there were moments where there was a press conference where he was doing, wasn't he doing exercises, doing push ups or whatever. Sort of showing off his physique. Then very famously, in 2015, when he announced his cabinet and half of his cabinet members were female, somebody asked him, well, why? Why is that so? And he said, because it's 2015.

And there were I think there were moments where there was a press conference where he was doing, wasn't he doing exercises, doing push ups or whatever. Sort of showing off his physique. Then very famously, in 2015, when he announced his cabinet and half of his cabinet members were female, somebody asked him, well, why? Why is that so? And he said, because it's 2015.

Because it's 2015. Canadians elected extraordinary members of parliament from across the country, and I am glad to have been able to highlight a few of them in this cabinet.

Because it's 2015. Canadians elected extraordinary members of parliament from across the country, and I am glad to have been able to highlight a few of them in this cabinet.

So this is very much like he was showing that he was very much current with the times. But I think what happened with Trudeau is that the times changed dramatically right out from under his feet, and now he's become a victim of these forces that he can't control, which we've seen sweeping across open liberal democracies, which is the sense of this anti-incumbent mood, this backlash. Also this sort of there's this kind of review or this questioning, I think, of how these open societies are supposed to function in this time of high migration and globalization. So immigration has emerged as an animating issue, not just in Canada, but in obviously in the US with the election and the re-election of Donald Trump. It's very much an animating issue through Europe and Germany in the UK and to to a degree here in Australia as well. And for these reasons, Trudeau has become yet the latest figure to to find himself on the wrong end of that, of that kind of I don't want to call it backlash, but it's just a change in view about how these societies, you know, deal with immigration at scale.

So this is very much like he was showing that he was very much current with the times. But I think what happened with Trudeau is that the times changed dramatically right out from under his feet, and now he's become a victim of these forces that he can't control, which we've seen sweeping across open liberal democracies, which is the sense of this anti-incumbent mood, this backlash. Also this sort of there's this kind of review or this questioning, I think, of how these open societies are supposed to function in this time of high migration and globalization. So immigration has emerged as an animating issue, not just in Canada, but in obviously in the US with the election and the re-election of Donald Trump. It's very much an animating issue through Europe and Germany in the UK and to to a degree here in Australia as well. And for these reasons, Trudeau has become yet the latest figure to to find himself on the wrong end of that, of that kind of I don't want to call it backlash, but it's just a change in view about how these societies, you know, deal with immigration at scale.

And perhaps that really is reflected, though, in the revolt. I guess you could say that we'd seen against Trudeau, both within his party and outside of his party. I think, you know, most prominently in the last few months. So can you tell me a bit about that? I mean, who was so against him and why?

And perhaps that really is reflected, though, in the revolt. I guess you could say that we'd seen against Trudeau, both within his party and outside of his party. I think, you know, most prominently in the last few months. So can you tell me a bit about that? I mean, who was so against him and why?

Well, so I mean, it's very interesting in the last few months and in, uh, in November, uh, Justin Trudeau actually went in front of cameras and he said that the, the open immigration system in Canada had been exploited by bad actors. And he said, essentially, we made a mistake and we are now clamping down on these numbers. So Canada, like, like all countries at the time of Covid, they had to very dramatically curtail the numbers of people coming into the country once they opened up again and the the lockdowns ended, there was this great demand for, uh, for labour. So they opened up to more immigration, more students coming through and visas that could be converted to longer term stays. Um, and then they found that they were they were being exploited by people who were, um, companies that were importing basically cheap labour. The housing market in Canada, not unlike here in Australia, is subject to a lot of pressure. Um, the housing prices are very high. The degree to which that's driven by immigration is a matter of debate. But there was the perception that immigration was a factor there. And so they were making noises. And the government of Trudeau had been making noises for some time, that they were going to restrict some of the some of the permits on home ownership for foreigners. And they had done that, but it still wasn't enough. His deputy Prime minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland, who's very respected internationally. She resigned within days. An opposition party that has actually caucused with the liberals, the New Democratic Party, they announced that they would bring a no confidence vote against him when parliament resumed. So those things together, taken together, just look like the struts were just falling out from beneath him. And so he announced that he is he is resigning as prime minister.

Well, so I mean, it's very interesting in the last few months and in, uh, in November, uh, Justin Trudeau actually went in front of cameras and he said that the, the open immigration system in Canada had been exploited by bad actors. And he said, essentially, we made a mistake and we are now clamping down on these numbers. So Canada, like, like all countries at the time of Covid, they had to very dramatically curtail the numbers of people coming into the country once they opened up again and the the lockdowns ended, there was this great demand for, uh, for labour. So they opened up to more immigration, more students coming through and visas that could be converted to longer term stays. Um, and then they found that they were they were being exploited by people who were, um, companies that were importing basically cheap labour. The housing market in Canada, not unlike here in Australia, is subject to a lot of pressure. Um, the housing prices are very high. The degree to which that's driven by immigration is a matter of debate. But there was the perception that immigration was a factor there. And so they were making noises. And the government of Trudeau had been making noises for some time, that they were going to restrict some of the some of the permits on home ownership for foreigners. And they had done that, but it still wasn't enough. His deputy Prime minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland, who's very respected internationally. She resigned within days. An opposition party that has actually caucused with the liberals, the New Democratic Party, they announced that they would bring a no confidence vote against him when parliament resumed. So those things together, taken together, just look like the struts were just falling out from beneath him. And so he announced that he is he is resigning as prime minister.

This country deserves a real choice in the next election. And it has become clear to me that if I'm having to fight internal battles. I cannot be the best option in that election.

This country deserves a real choice in the next election. And it has become clear to me that if I'm having to fight internal battles. I cannot be the best option in that election.

He's going to stay on and the caretaker mode until his party can nominate a new leader. And that's expected to take some time.

He's going to stay on and the caretaker mode until his party can nominate a new leader. And that's expected to take some time.

And then on top of everything, there's Donald Trump, right? He's been roasting Justin Trudeau, I think.

And then on top of everything, there's Donald Trump, right? He's been roasting Justin Trudeau, I think.

Yeah. So Donald Trump in the past few days has put out some posts that are intended essentially to, you know, to get Trudeau's goat. Essentially, they're they're intended to undermine Trudeau, to hold him up as a figure of ridicule, but also, sadly, possibly likely to infuriate a lot of Canadians. So referring to Canada as a 51st state, these are things these are jokes that would be made that basically, I think any American would know would be offensive to a neighboring country. Trump has pledged to impose higher tariffs on goods coming from Canada and Canada. And and the US are you know, it's a huge trade partnership there. It's going to mean a lot to Canada. If they're having to pay 25% more for goods that are being exported into the US. Trudeau visited Trump to talk about this, and in the end, Trump is essentially celebrating his his fall, his resignation from politics.

Yeah. So Donald Trump in the past few days has put out some posts that are intended essentially to, you know, to get Trudeau's goat. Essentially, they're they're intended to undermine Trudeau, to hold him up as a figure of ridicule, but also, sadly, possibly likely to infuriate a lot of Canadians. So referring to Canada as a 51st state, these are things these are jokes that would be made that basically, I think any American would know would be offensive to a neighboring country. Trump has pledged to impose higher tariffs on goods coming from Canada and Canada. And and the US are you know, it's a huge trade partnership there. It's going to mean a lot to Canada. If they're having to pay 25% more for goods that are being exported into the US. Trudeau visited Trump to talk about this, and in the end, Trump is essentially celebrating his his fall, his resignation from politics.

We'll be right back. Okay, so, Chris, I want to turn now to really what the significance of all of this is. I mean, why should our listeners actually care about the Canadian prime minister resigning and, you know, there being a new one on the way? Like, what difference does it make to us?

We'll be right back. Okay, so, Chris, I want to turn now to really what the significance of all of this is. I mean, why should our listeners actually care about the Canadian prime minister resigning and, you know, there being a new one on the way? Like, what difference does it make to us?

Well, it seems like it seems like what we're seeing is a pattern through open democracies and liberal democracies where, you know, if given the choice, there's a very strong anti-incumbent feeling in the air. And even in the case of the United States, where the the former president gets reelected in a, in a sort of a backlash against the incumbent, Joe Biden. We're seeing this sort of everywhere. And it looks like that's happened again in Canada, where they've had enough of the guy who's been in power for nine years, whose party has been in power in a minority government for this time, and they want change. And they're feeling very. I think the pressures in, you know, sort of the, the bread and butter issues for a lot of households are very to the, you know, very much on the, on the for for a lot of people and they want action and they want relief now. And I think very interestingly in the case of Justin Trudeau, I mean, he was the poster boy for liberalism, and he sort of played the good cop of North America to the bad cop being Donald Trump. So Donald Trump gets elected in 2016. He is very much about building the wall and clamping down on immigration and basically turning his back to turning his back on globalization. Justin Trudeau really played the part of the of the good guy who who he made a point of being open to a law abiding immigrants that wanted to resettle in the country, but even that it's like too much of a good thing.

Well, it seems like it seems like what we're seeing is a pattern through open democracies and liberal democracies where, you know, if given the choice, there's a very strong anti-incumbent feeling in the air. And even in the case of the United States, where the the former president gets reelected in a, in a sort of a backlash against the incumbent, Joe Biden. We're seeing this sort of everywhere. And it looks like that's happened again in Canada, where they've had enough of the guy who's been in power for nine years, whose party has been in power in a minority government for this time, and they want change. And they're feeling very. I think the pressures in, you know, sort of the, the bread and butter issues for a lot of households are very to the, you know, very much on the, on the for for a lot of people and they want action and they want relief now. And I think very interestingly in the case of Justin Trudeau, I mean, he was the poster boy for liberalism, and he sort of played the good cop of North America to the bad cop being Donald Trump. So Donald Trump gets elected in 2016. He is very much about building the wall and clamping down on immigration and basically turning his back to turning his back on globalization. Justin Trudeau really played the part of the of the good guy who who he made a point of being open to a law abiding immigrants that wanted to resettle in the country, but even that it's like too much of a good thing.

And so why should that matter to us? I mean, is it is it the fact that, you know, like you said, it seems like Canadians really have turned against Trudeau because they found themselves battered by persistent inflation, and they've got an affordability crisis. And there's now, you know, a lot of questioning about immigration and how many people, you know, that Trudeau is bringing in was too many is the reason that this is significant for us, because it might be a message for our own prime minister, Anthony Albanese. You know, maybe Trudeau misread the electorate, and maybe this is something that Albanese might want to look to. Is that sort of what you're thinking?

And so why should that matter to us? I mean, is it is it the fact that, you know, like you said, it seems like Canadians really have turned against Trudeau because they found themselves battered by persistent inflation, and they've got an affordability crisis. And there's now, you know, a lot of questioning about immigration and how many people, you know, that Trudeau is bringing in was too many is the reason that this is significant for us, because it might be a message for our own prime minister, Anthony Albanese. You know, maybe Trudeau misread the electorate, and maybe this is something that Albanese might want to look to. Is that sort of what you're thinking?

Well, I would make no forecasts for what's going to happen in politics in Australia. But you can say something to the effect of, you know, as you know, as things go for Trudeau, it's likely that they'll go for other leaders in liberal democracies, not necessarily Australia. But these pressures that he found himself confronting are are very similar pressures that we're seeing here. And it's not just on the purely economic front where you've got households where they're struggling to pay their bills and struggling with inflation, that's not going away. Interest rates aren't falling as they were expected to at a certain point. It's also this broader thing of, well, how are our societies that are that are based on a certain amount of openness and a certain amount of immigration at any given time, how are they supposed to thrive in a time of sort of unlimited competition, with some bigger powers that don't share the same, that don't share the same values? In a time where immigration and globalization, there's a lot of free movement of people, but it's not clear how these societies are supposed to work for the middle classes here. And so and for that reason, I think that the the fall of Trudeau is going to be something that's going to be watched very carefully, not just in Canberra, but in other capitals around the world.

Well, I would make no forecasts for what's going to happen in politics in Australia. But you can say something to the effect of, you know, as you know, as things go for Trudeau, it's likely that they'll go for other leaders in liberal democracies, not necessarily Australia. But these pressures that he found himself confronting are are very similar pressures that we're seeing here. And it's not just on the purely economic front where you've got households where they're struggling to pay their bills and struggling with inflation, that's not going away. Interest rates aren't falling as they were expected to at a certain point. It's also this broader thing of, well, how are our societies that are that are based on a certain amount of openness and a certain amount of immigration at any given time, how are they supposed to thrive in a time of sort of unlimited competition, with some bigger powers that don't share the same, that don't share the same values? In a time where immigration and globalization, there's a lot of free movement of people, but it's not clear how these societies are supposed to work for the middle classes here. And so and for that reason, I think that the the fall of Trudeau is going to be something that's going to be watched very carefully, not just in Canberra, but in other capitals around the world.

Who is going to take over Canada? Because, you know, polls suggest that the greatest likelihood is that it's the Conservative Party that will take control after many, many years, after about nine years. So what do we know about the Conservative Party in Canada and who's likely to take over there? Well, I mean.

Who is going to take over Canada? Because, you know, polls suggest that the greatest likelihood is that it's the Conservative Party that will take control after many, many years, after about nine years. So what do we know about the Conservative Party in Canada and who's likely to take over there? Well, I mean.

I think in the more immediate term is who's going to take over for the the head of the Liberal Party. So there, as I said before, there's a couple of names that have been bandied about. But one is Chrystia Freeland. So she had been his finance minister. She had been foreign minister in 2017 to 2019, and was very active at that time in the sort of the post-Trump world, how they'll perform against the conservative parties. Pierre Poilievre is a very open question. It appears that Poilievre has risen in part with this this feeling from the public of backlash, especially following the lockdowns during the the coronavirus pandemic. In fact, when they were having the Freedom Trucker rallies where there were truck drivers in Canada were occupying parts of squares in the centers of cities in Ottawa and other capital cities. He aligned himself with a lot of that sentiment, so he looks like he's prepared to ride that sort of backlash, you know, wave and this is this may very much color the politics in in Canada at the time. It's a very different vibe that's coming along. The fear, of course, is that there are more extremist elements that are attracted to these politics and they somehow find themselves in power. But in the case of the conservative leader of Canada, we just see somebody who is aligning himself with this general sense of outrage that is triggered by what's happened, I think, in the aftermath of the pandemic, but also speaks to this larger sort of unease about the general drift for liberal democracy and the values within these democracies. What populations are privileged, what populations feel like they've been aggrieved, that sort of thing.

I think in the more immediate term is who's going to take over for the the head of the Liberal Party. So there, as I said before, there's a couple of names that have been bandied about. But one is Chrystia Freeland. So she had been his finance minister. She had been foreign minister in 2017 to 2019, and was very active at that time in the sort of the post-Trump world, how they'll perform against the conservative parties. Pierre Poilievre is a very open question. It appears that Poilievre has risen in part with this this feeling from the public of backlash, especially following the lockdowns during the the coronavirus pandemic. In fact, when they were having the Freedom Trucker rallies where there were truck drivers in Canada were occupying parts of squares in the centers of cities in Ottawa and other capital cities. He aligned himself with a lot of that sentiment, so he looks like he's prepared to ride that sort of backlash, you know, wave and this is this may very much color the politics in in Canada at the time. It's a very different vibe that's coming along. The fear, of course, is that there are more extremist elements that are attracted to these politics and they somehow find themselves in power. But in the case of the conservative leader of Canada, we just see somebody who is aligning himself with this general sense of outrage that is triggered by what's happened, I think, in the aftermath of the pandemic, but also speaks to this larger sort of unease about the general drift for liberal democracy and the values within these democracies. What populations are privileged, what populations feel like they've been aggrieved, that sort of thing.

And I guess to wrap up, Chris, do you think people will now be looking at this downfall of this government and thinking, wow, we're really are going to return? You know, we are moving into a very different world in which maybe the opposite values are going to be championed. Maybe they will really become the norm globally.

And I guess to wrap up, Chris, do you think people will now be looking at this downfall of this government and thinking, wow, we're really are going to return? You know, we are moving into a very different world in which maybe the opposite values are going to be championed. Maybe they will really become the norm globally.

Look, I mean, I think that we're at a time of a massive political realignment that we're seeing across all of these liberal democracies. I do think that we, you know, these societies do have to be on guard for this sort of creeping illiberalism. And again, the example of Donald Trump, I mean, there's a certain there's a certain dimension of I mean, cruelty may be too strong a word, but a delight in the misfortune of others, which I do think goes against the the traditions of a liberal democracy. So, you know, it's one thing for a politician to have a view and to have a view that's very much at odds with another politician's view. But now there's this sort of sense of like, well, it doesn't really matter unless I can actually, you know, stick the knife into you in public. And, you know, and I do think that that is worrying and that is something that that those who believe in liberalism. I mean, in pure liberalism have to be concerned with. And I and I think that that's another area that we will have to be watching in the years ahead. It's not just about the economic interests, but it's about the ethos of a society that's going to be an area that we're really going to be watching to see how much, um, how much sort of suffering is tolerable within a society and how how much does that become something that's politically acceptable? I mean, it.

Look, I mean, I think that we're at a time of a massive political realignment that we're seeing across all of these liberal democracies. I do think that we, you know, these societies do have to be on guard for this sort of creeping illiberalism. And again, the example of Donald Trump, I mean, there's a certain there's a certain dimension of I mean, cruelty may be too strong a word, but a delight in the misfortune of others, which I do think goes against the the traditions of a liberal democracy. So, you know, it's one thing for a politician to have a view and to have a view that's very much at odds with another politician's view. But now there's this sort of sense of like, well, it doesn't really matter unless I can actually, you know, stick the knife into you in public. And, you know, and I do think that that is worrying and that is something that that those who believe in liberalism. I mean, in pure liberalism have to be concerned with. And I and I think that that's another area that we will have to be watching in the years ahead. It's not just about the economic interests, but it's about the ethos of a society that's going to be an area that we're really going to be watching to see how much, um, how much sort of suffering is tolerable within a society and how how much does that become something that's politically acceptable? I mean, it.

Really does make you wonder whether, you know, people no longer want those nice leaders. You know, I saw Justin Trudeau. He appeared on The Stephen Colbert show just three months ago, and he was talking about how, you know, Canada is so famous and his government is known for being inclusive. And he said something along the lines that people know, people no longer in the globe that when Canadians show up, you know, they're there to help, they're not there to conquer, you know? And of course, the audience loved that. And you think, wow, are we entering an age now where people want conquerors? Is this what is this what the people want now? Chris?

Really does make you wonder whether, you know, people no longer want those nice leaders. You know, I saw Justin Trudeau. He appeared on The Stephen Colbert show just three months ago, and he was talking about how, you know, Canada is so famous and his government is known for being inclusive. And he said something along the lines that people know, people no longer in the globe that when Canadians show up, you know, they're there to help, they're not there to conquer, you know? And of course, the audience loved that. And you think, wow, are we entering an age now where people want conquerors? Is this what is this what the people want now? Chris?

I think there's there's something about the lure of the strongman, the guy. And it's usually a guy that's just getting it done, right. They're just taking care of business and we don't care about the rules. That's a very seductive idea, right? And and I should be clear. It's not just guys. I think of the prime minister of Italy, Giorgia meloni. So she's somebody else who who is trying to, um, trying to, you know, take very sort of decisive actions to, to have this different outcome for her country and for, for Europe. So I think that that's a very seductive idea in this time where there's this sense of kind of overwhelming complexity and also this sort of paralysis. Right? It's paralysis by analysis in a lot of cases for these countries and for these governments where they're analyzing the problem, but never actually coming up with a solution. I think that that's a very seductive idea, especially in this time where everything is being ingested via little videos on social media. So, yeah, it's going to be something to watch very carefully in the years ahead. And the resignation Of Justin Trudeau is another chapter in this larger story.

I think there's there's something about the lure of the strongman, the guy. And it's usually a guy that's just getting it done, right. They're just taking care of business and we don't care about the rules. That's a very seductive idea, right? And and I should be clear. It's not just guys. I think of the prime minister of Italy, Giorgia meloni. So she's somebody else who who is trying to, um, trying to, you know, take very sort of decisive actions to, to have this different outcome for her country and for, for Europe. So I think that that's a very seductive idea in this time where there's this sense of kind of overwhelming complexity and also this sort of paralysis. Right? It's paralysis by analysis in a lot of cases for these countries and for these governments where they're analyzing the problem, but never actually coming up with a solution. I think that that's a very seductive idea, especially in this time where everything is being ingested via little videos on social media. So, yeah, it's going to be something to watch very carefully in the years ahead. And the resignation Of Justin Trudeau is another chapter in this larger story.

Well, we always love getting your insights on this. So thank you so much, Chris, for your time.

Well, we always love getting your insights on this. So thank you so much, Chris, for your time.

Thanks, Sam.

Thanks, Sam.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.