From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Chris Payne, filling in for Samantha Salinger. Morris. It's Wednesday, October 2nd. The suicide of a 12 year old Sydney schoolgirl last month sent shockwaves across the country. It became the tragic flashpoint for a national discussion about bullying in our schools and the complex set of issues facing students, parents, teachers and administrators. Bullying in schools isn't a new problem, but according to experts, it remains a major one. And in Australia, it's been notoriously difficult and oftentimes costly to tackle. Today, chief reporter Jordan Baker on the culture of bullying in our schools and what needs to change. And a warning this episode contains mentions of suicide. Support is available through Kids Helpline on one 800. 551 800. Or lifeline on 13 1114. Jordan. Last month we saw the devastating suicide of a 12 year old schoolgirl named Charlotte, who cited bullying in her farewell note. Can you tell us a bit more about that case and what we know?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Chris Payne, filling in for Samantha Salinger. Morris. It's Wednesday, October 2nd. The suicide of a 12 year old Sydney schoolgirl last month sent shockwaves across the country. It became the tragic flashpoint for a national discussion about bullying in our schools and the complex set of issues facing students, parents, teachers and administrators. Bullying in schools isn't a new problem, but according to experts, it remains a major one. And in Australia, it's been notoriously difficult and oftentimes costly to tackle. Today, chief reporter Jordan Baker on the culture of bullying in our schools and what needs to change. And a warning this episode contains mentions of suicide. Support is available through Kids Helpline on one 800. 551 800. Or lifeline on 13 1114. Jordan. Last month we saw the devastating suicide of a 12 year old schoolgirl named Charlotte, who cited bullying in her farewell note. Can you tell us a bit more about that case and what we know?

Well, this was an absolutely heartbreaking story and it really shocked Sydney, and it really, really shocked our readers and brought out a lot of stories from our readers about their own experience of bullying and their children's experience of bullying. So Charlotte was in year seven at a Sydney school in Strathfield, a leafy Catholic girls school called Santa Sabina. She'd been there since year five. She had had issues with some of the girls in her year group. She had divulged some personal information when she was in year five to sort of bond with some of the other girls, but this was sort of used against her. She was in a friendship group that sort of expelled her one moment and took her back again, just as she was sort of moving on. For that, I think a lot of girls in particular and women will recognize this kind of behavior. I have actually heard a bullying expert once say that ostracism is actually the worst kind, because it's very quiet. Her parents had brought this up with the school. I've seen messages that they brought this up with a school in around mid 2022. The school's response was that the allegations were new and were inconsistent with their records, but it persisted. Charlotte became very, very, very distressed. She was crying on the way to school. She'd be crying on the way home. Her parents took her to a GP who described their behaviour as a harassment, and the parents really struggled to know what to do with this. To what extent was this an issue that Charlotte had to work on versus what the school had to work on? They were in constant contact with the school. They say Charlotte was very distressed. There were other things going on in Charlotte's life. She didn't have necessarily a particularly smooth life. Last month, Charlotte took her own life. She left several notes. One of them talked about bullying and the experiences that she had at school, and asked her parents to share her story, which which they have done. You know, 12 years old. She wasn't even a teenager. 12 year old Charlotte left a heartbreaking note for.

Well, this was an absolutely heartbreaking story and it really shocked Sydney, and it really, really shocked our readers and brought out a lot of stories from our readers about their own experience of bullying and their children's experience of bullying. So Charlotte was in year seven at a Sydney school in Strathfield, a leafy Catholic girls school called Santa Sabina. She'd been there since year five. She had had issues with some of the girls in her year group. She had divulged some personal information when she was in year five to sort of bond with some of the other girls, but this was sort of used against her. She was in a friendship group that sort of expelled her one moment and took her back again, just as she was sort of moving on. For that, I think a lot of girls in particular and women will recognize this kind of behavior. I have actually heard a bullying expert once say that ostracism is actually the worst kind, because it's very quiet. Her parents had brought this up with the school. I've seen messages that they brought this up with a school in around mid 2022. The school's response was that the allegations were new and were inconsistent with their records, but it persisted. Charlotte became very, very, very distressed. She was crying on the way to school. She'd be crying on the way home. Her parents took her to a GP who described their behaviour as a harassment, and the parents really struggled to know what to do with this. To what extent was this an issue that Charlotte had to work on versus what the school had to work on? They were in constant contact with the school. They say Charlotte was very distressed. There were other things going on in Charlotte's life. She didn't have necessarily a particularly smooth life. Last month, Charlotte took her own life. She left several notes. One of them talked about bullying and the experiences that she had at school, and asked her parents to share her story, which which they have done. You know, 12 years old. She wasn't even a teenager. 12 year old Charlotte left a heartbreaking note for.

Her parents after years of alleged bullying at school became too much. Charlotte's suicide shocked the country. Today, she was farewelled in a coffin adorned with butterflies and.

Her parents after years of alleged bullying at school became too much. Charlotte's suicide shocked the country. Today, she was farewelled in a coffin adorned with butterflies and.

Flowers and Matt carried out the coffin, praying Charlotte's story will help prevent another family having to endure a loss like this.

Flowers and Matt carried out the coffin, praying Charlotte's story will help prevent another family having to endure a loss like this.

Experts do say, and this is very important, there's never really one particular thing that prompts someone to take their own life. Suicide is a complicated Thing. It's rare, thankfully, but it's raised a lot of concerns from parents about bullying, and it really has very much exposed the fact that both schools and parents are really struggling to know how to deal with this. It's a very, very complicated issue. It's complex within the school dynamics. It changes from year to year friendship group to friendship group, child to child. So a lot of parents really don't know how to handle it. They don't know when to bring it up with the school. They don't know what to expect from the school. They don't know when to pull the child out of school. Um, and schools themselves also are sort of struggling to know exactly how to how to manage this, because a lot of it happens off campus, obviously, on phones these days and that sort of thing. So it really is a very, very complex issue. And, um, it is clearly, given the huge reaction of our readers to this story, something that a lot of families are really grappling with.

Experts do say, and this is very important, there's never really one particular thing that prompts someone to take their own life. Suicide is a complicated Thing. It's rare, thankfully, but it's raised a lot of concerns from parents about bullying, and it really has very much exposed the fact that both schools and parents are really struggling to know how to deal with this. It's a very, very complicated issue. It's complex within the school dynamics. It changes from year to year friendship group to friendship group, child to child. So a lot of parents really don't know how to handle it. They don't know when to bring it up with the school. They don't know what to expect from the school. They don't know when to pull the child out of school. Um, and schools themselves also are sort of struggling to know exactly how to how to manage this, because a lot of it happens off campus, obviously, on phones these days and that sort of thing. So it really is a very, very complex issue. And, um, it is clearly, given the huge reaction of our readers to this story, something that a lot of families are really grappling with.

A lot of what you just described in terms of the types of bullying, how it actually plays out at school, it feels so familiar. I'm sure it feels familiar to our listeners. This certainly happened when I was going to school. I'm sure it happened when you were going to school. We experienced it, we saw it, but it's still happening. Is it is it getting worse? Because you did find a study showing that Australia has one of the highest rates of school bullying in a list of 20 countries?

A lot of what you just described in terms of the types of bullying, how it actually plays out at school, it feels so familiar. I'm sure it feels familiar to our listeners. This certainly happened when I was going to school. I'm sure it happened when you were going to school. We experienced it, we saw it, but it's still happening. Is it is it getting worse? Because you did find a study showing that Australia has one of the highest rates of school bullying in a list of 20 countries?

It's very difficult to say if it's getting worse or not, because we've started to measure this sort of stuff recently, and we weren't measuring it when you and I were at school a long time ago. So but what we do know is that Australian students, more than the other 20 or almost more than most of the other 20 countries that were surveyed, were struggling with bullying. We know that much. We also know that Australia has a particularly significant problem with discipline in school generally, and that has also been borne out by the same research where children start saying that they're struggling to learn in class because of all the disruption. We had a Senate inquiry into behaviour in schools last year, so we know that bullying is sitting within this context of behavioural problems in schools. And what we also know from the experts is when there are significant behavioural problems in schools, sometimes it's difficult to work out amid all the chaos that's happening in the classroom and in the playground, what are the different types of issues that are going on because bullying comes into that. So you have these sort of, you know, quite messy social contexts. You have teachers who are often, for example, you know, very stretched. We have a teacher shortage at the moment. Um, we also have a context that some people talk about is as a kind of a move away from accountability in terms of parenting. So some parents, for example, the parents of the bullies are less likely. Anecdotally, I hear from principals to actually take responsibility for their child's behavior and much more likely to defend their child. We have had principals tell us that, you know, if a child, for example, is disciplined or there is talk of suspension, the parents will actually arrive in the headmaster or headmistress office with their legal team. So, you know, there is there is a very complicated culture that schools and parents are having to navigate here.

It's very difficult to say if it's getting worse or not, because we've started to measure this sort of stuff recently, and we weren't measuring it when you and I were at school a long time ago. So but what we do know is that Australian students, more than the other 20 or almost more than most of the other 20 countries that were surveyed, were struggling with bullying. We know that much. We also know that Australia has a particularly significant problem with discipline in school generally, and that has also been borne out by the same research where children start saying that they're struggling to learn in class because of all the disruption. We had a Senate inquiry into behaviour in schools last year, so we know that bullying is sitting within this context of behavioural problems in schools. And what we also know from the experts is when there are significant behavioural problems in schools, sometimes it's difficult to work out amid all the chaos that's happening in the classroom and in the playground, what are the different types of issues that are going on because bullying comes into that. So you have these sort of, you know, quite messy social contexts. You have teachers who are often, for example, you know, very stretched. We have a teacher shortage at the moment. Um, we also have a context that some people talk about is as a kind of a move away from accountability in terms of parenting. So some parents, for example, the parents of the bullies are less likely. Anecdotally, I hear from principals to actually take responsibility for their child's behavior and much more likely to defend their child. We have had principals tell us that, you know, if a child, for example, is disciplined or there is talk of suspension, the parents will actually arrive in the headmaster or headmistress office with their legal team. So, you know, there is there is a very complicated culture that schools and parents are having to navigate here.

Charlotte's parents say that her death could have been avoided. That's what they have said. But an expert you spoke with said schools on the whole are struggling to deal with bullying. Why is this so difficult for schools to manage?

Charlotte's parents say that her death could have been avoided. That's what they have said. But an expert you spoke with said schools on the whole are struggling to deal with bullying. Why is this so difficult for schools to manage?

There are so many different things at play here. You have, for example, as I just was mentioning, you know, the legal situation, particularly in private schools. I was speaking to Rachel Murray, who is an expert on this at the Kidman Centre, which which looks after sort of adolescent mental health. Um, you know, and there is this culture of, of legal fearfulness that the school might get sued, that if a, if a child is pulled up for bullying, you know, do they need to have actual physical proof? You know, the fact that a lot of this, as I said, is happening off campus with phones and that sort of thing. You also have, I think, a lack of information to a lot of schools about what exactly to do when it happens, um, you know, and how to respond. Rachel Murray from the Kidman center, is actually starting to work on some resources that can be available to schools simply because she is just constantly fielding queries from school about how, how do we do this? And the big issue at adolescent point of view, too, is you have, you know, kids who are bullying and kids who are bullied. And then often, though within that context, you will have both of those children, the bully and the bullied, having very complex situations at home. For example, you know, I have come across cases when I was education editor where you would have a child bullying other children, who you then find out, you know, is a ward of the state who is spending their nights in, you know, hotels because they can't have foster families like extremely difficult, difficult, difficult situations, which doesn't excuse the bullying. And it certainly doesn't make things any better for the victim. But you've got it just shows the complicated context in which some of these schools are working, and they would know often the context of the bully her that by the same token, you know, the school can't tell the parents about this because of, you know, valid privacy reasons for this particular student. So the parents of the bullied child are left extremely frustrated about not getting any information, not knowing whether the bully is facing any Consequences. You know, watching the effect on this child, which, as we all know from our own high school experiences, can be really long lasting. If you have a very bad experience at high school, it can really affect the course of your life in terms of your confidence and your decisions and that sort of stuff. So it's high stakes and highly complicated.

There are so many different things at play here. You have, for example, as I just was mentioning, you know, the legal situation, particularly in private schools. I was speaking to Rachel Murray, who is an expert on this at the Kidman Centre, which which looks after sort of adolescent mental health. Um, you know, and there is this culture of, of legal fearfulness that the school might get sued, that if a, if a child is pulled up for bullying, you know, do they need to have actual physical proof? You know, the fact that a lot of this, as I said, is happening off campus with phones and that sort of thing. You also have, I think, a lack of information to a lot of schools about what exactly to do when it happens, um, you know, and how to respond. Rachel Murray from the Kidman center, is actually starting to work on some resources that can be available to schools simply because she is just constantly fielding queries from school about how, how do we do this? And the big issue at adolescent point of view, too, is you have, you know, kids who are bullying and kids who are bullied. And then often, though within that context, you will have both of those children, the bully and the bullied, having very complex situations at home. For example, you know, I have come across cases when I was education editor where you would have a child bullying other children, who you then find out, you know, is a ward of the state who is spending their nights in, you know, hotels because they can't have foster families like extremely difficult, difficult, difficult situations, which doesn't excuse the bullying. And it certainly doesn't make things any better for the victim. But you've got it just shows the complicated context in which some of these schools are working, and they would know often the context of the bully her that by the same token, you know, the school can't tell the parents about this because of, you know, valid privacy reasons for this particular student. So the parents of the bullied child are left extremely frustrated about not getting any information, not knowing whether the bully is facing any Consequences. You know, watching the effect on this child, which, as we all know from our own high school experiences, can be really long lasting. If you have a very bad experience at high school, it can really affect the course of your life in terms of your confidence and your decisions and that sort of stuff. So it's high stakes and highly complicated.

We'll be right back. There have been quite a few questions about whether Santa Sabina itself has a bullying problem. There was, of course, another tragic case with a senior staff member at that school earlier this year. But is it the case that some schools struggle more than others with this problem?

We'll be right back. There have been quite a few questions about whether Santa Sabina itself has a bullying problem. There was, of course, another tragic case with a senior staff member at that school earlier this year. But is it the case that some schools struggle more than others with this problem?

In the case of the staff member who took her own life in January, the school said that they can't comment on the mental health of a staff member, but they never received any complaints from her. I think some schools have a better handle on the behavioral issues at their school. And I think this comes back to this wider issue of discipline in Australian schools more generally. And you will when you talk to discipline experts, they say if you have a very stringent and and and carefully adhered to standards of behaviour in class, that can ensure that everyone knows what's expected of them, everyone knows what will happen if if they step out of those boundaries, and when. There is a more general environment of calm and strong expectations and everyone knows what to do with themselves, and everyone knows when to be quiet and everyone knows you know what is expected next, then if there is an aberration of behaviour, for example, you know if there is a particular child being bullied or if you know there is a particular child being harassed, that will stand out more within the context of this school. But that requires strong school leadership. So really you need a principal who is leading the school. You need teachers who are fully trained and completely aware and very supported. But then even when you have that, you'll also get different contexts and different year groups, different cohorts, different students. You know, you might get a student with particular vulnerabilities who is in a year group with with children who are have a particular clique dynamic. Not every year is going to have that. Not every group of kids is going to have that.

In the case of the staff member who took her own life in January, the school said that they can't comment on the mental health of a staff member, but they never received any complaints from her. I think some schools have a better handle on the behavioral issues at their school. And I think this comes back to this wider issue of discipline in Australian schools more generally. And you will when you talk to discipline experts, they say if you have a very stringent and and and carefully adhered to standards of behaviour in class, that can ensure that everyone knows what's expected of them, everyone knows what will happen if if they step out of those boundaries, and when. There is a more general environment of calm and strong expectations and everyone knows what to do with themselves, and everyone knows when to be quiet and everyone knows you know what is expected next, then if there is an aberration of behaviour, for example, you know if there is a particular child being bullied or if you know there is a particular child being harassed, that will stand out more within the context of this school. But that requires strong school leadership. So really you need a principal who is leading the school. You need teachers who are fully trained and completely aware and very supported. But then even when you have that, you'll also get different contexts and different year groups, different cohorts, different students. You know, you might get a student with particular vulnerabilities who is in a year group with with children who are have a particular clique dynamic. Not every year is going to have that. Not every group of kids is going to have that.

Now, when it comes to the parents, this is obviously very distressing for some of them. The expert you spoke to, Rachel Murray, said that some are even taking things into their own hands and doing things like hiring private investigators. Can you unpack that for us?

Now, when it comes to the parents, this is obviously very distressing for some of them. The expert you spoke to, Rachel Murray, said that some are even taking things into their own hands and doing things like hiring private investigators. Can you unpack that for us?

Well, I think the the issue is that in order for a school to act against a student, there has to be a certain level of proof. It's a little bit like, you know, anywhere if you're going to discipline a child for some kind of behaviour, then you need to be fairly sure that this behavior is going on, particularly in the exclusion, ostracism, friendship, dynamics, type of bullying. It's really hard to pinpoint, you know, moreover, schools aren't allowed to see someone's phone and search through it. They don't have the powers of police. They don't know what's going on outside the school gates. So it can be very it can be difficult for them to act. We do know that schools are expected to have bullying policies. They're expected to make these bullying policies public. They're expected to, you know, revisit these policies. But we also know that there was a particularly influential case, maybe about ten years ago. It was a court case which found that there's no point having a bullying policy unless you are enacting your bullying policy. So the schools not only have to make sure that they have one, but they've got to make sure that it is enacted and is working properly. And that seems to be the big problem is, you know, we can all talk about bullying from a theoretical point of view, but actually making sure that this is happening on the ground is a whole different kettle of fish. And some schools are doing this quite well, and I get feedback from some schools from parents saying that they believe that their school is really handling these things well. And I get feedback from other schools saying that they feel like the school isn't handling it well. They feel like their student isn't being looked after. And there's a motto that a lot of public schools have. They each public school will have its own sort of mission statement. And a lot of these public schools choose safe. So this is a place where your child is safe and learns and is looked after. And I've spoken to parents who sort of say, well, you know, there's this whole safe thing. It seems like a really low bar, like, should that not be assumed? But I think in the current context where one of our great concerns now sending our kids to school is are they going to be mentally safe, not just physically safe, but are they going to be looked after? Are they going to be valued? Are they going to be listened to? Are they going to be protected? Then safety is actually really, really, really fundamental to what schools do.

Well, I think the the issue is that in order for a school to act against a student, there has to be a certain level of proof. It's a little bit like, you know, anywhere if you're going to discipline a child for some kind of behaviour, then you need to be fairly sure that this behavior is going on, particularly in the exclusion, ostracism, friendship, dynamics, type of bullying. It's really hard to pinpoint, you know, moreover, schools aren't allowed to see someone's phone and search through it. They don't have the powers of police. They don't know what's going on outside the school gates. So it can be very it can be difficult for them to act. We do know that schools are expected to have bullying policies. They're expected to make these bullying policies public. They're expected to, you know, revisit these policies. But we also know that there was a particularly influential case, maybe about ten years ago. It was a court case which found that there's no point having a bullying policy unless you are enacting your bullying policy. So the schools not only have to make sure that they have one, but they've got to make sure that it is enacted and is working properly. And that seems to be the big problem is, you know, we can all talk about bullying from a theoretical point of view, but actually making sure that this is happening on the ground is a whole different kettle of fish. And some schools are doing this quite well, and I get feedback from some schools from parents saying that they believe that their school is really handling these things well. And I get feedback from other schools saying that they feel like the school isn't handling it well. They feel like their student isn't being looked after. And there's a motto that a lot of public schools have. They each public school will have its own sort of mission statement. And a lot of these public schools choose safe. So this is a place where your child is safe and learns and is looked after. And I've spoken to parents who sort of say, well, you know, there's this whole safe thing. It seems like a really low bar, like, should that not be assumed? But I think in the current context where one of our great concerns now sending our kids to school is are they going to be mentally safe, not just physically safe, but are they going to be looked after? Are they going to be valued? Are they going to be listened to? Are they going to be protected? Then safety is actually really, really, really fundamental to what schools do.

Now, some parents who may feel like they've exhausted all of the options indeed go ahead and withdraw their child from the school. But you've actually found some schools don't make that process particularly easy. Why is that?

Now, some parents who may feel like they've exhausted all of the options indeed go ahead and withdraw their child from the school. But you've actually found some schools don't make that process particularly easy. Why is that?

So I think withdrawing a child from a school in any context is a really big decision. For example, you know, they may have spent, you know, years there. They may have good relationships with teachers. The issues in the playground might be one thing, but they might be excelling academically. There's this concern that, you know, if you if you move them, what if it all happens again, or that they're being sort of plonked into another year group? So it is a very, very complicated decision. And I think parents come to this decision after a lot of heartache and a lot of soul searching. The difficulty is particularly in the private school system, particularly in the high fee private school system. There are very strict contract rules about giving a full terms notice for withdrawing a student, and they're there for a reason. Like private schools have to manage budgets and that sort of thing. You know, they'll have to put on a certain number of teachers and. ET cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the difficulty for parents is if the school forces them to adhere to those contract obligations, they can be paying up to $10,000 in fees, particularly if they decide, okay, now's the time. We must withdraw our child. We feel like their safety is at risk. We're going to tell the school that our child is not coming back. The school will still insist on them paying that fee even if the child's not attending. So, you know, there could be up for up to $10,000 in fees for the withdrawal fee. Plus, if they move their child to another private school, you know, that could be another $10,000. So this is in itself a deterrent for some families from pulling their child out when they feel like they really need to pull them out. Some schools will really push the point. Some schools will be like, okay, we get it, you know. And there's a there's a big spectrum here, but some will really push the point. Um, you know, there are many, many, many cases in which schools have sent debt collectors after parents or, you know, threatened legal action. There are many, many, many cases of parents having to sign nondisclosure agreements if the school has, you know, for example, reached a deal where they might knock $2,000 off this fee, but will require parents to sign a nondisclosure agreement so that the parents don't harm the reputation of the school. Now, NDAs in the school context are really common. They're much more common than you would think. Schools do go to great lengths to protect their reputation, particularly these high fee schools. You know, we know how where they sit in the community in terms of, you know, very sought after, high prestige, long waiting lists. The last thing they want is for people to, you know, get on Facebook groups and say, well, my child had a terrible experience with bullying at that school. And for people who were withdrawing their kids from from public schools, sometimes there is just not another option. You know, sometimes the other schools are full and they can't take them. But but generally speaking, the public system tends to be a bit more flexible about things like that than the private school system in some ways.

So I think withdrawing a child from a school in any context is a really big decision. For example, you know, they may have spent, you know, years there. They may have good relationships with teachers. The issues in the playground might be one thing, but they might be excelling academically. There's this concern that, you know, if you if you move them, what if it all happens again, or that they're being sort of plonked into another year group? So it is a very, very complicated decision. And I think parents come to this decision after a lot of heartache and a lot of soul searching. The difficulty is particularly in the private school system, particularly in the high fee private school system. There are very strict contract rules about giving a full terms notice for withdrawing a student, and they're there for a reason. Like private schools have to manage budgets and that sort of thing. You know, they'll have to put on a certain number of teachers and. ET cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the difficulty for parents is if the school forces them to adhere to those contract obligations, they can be paying up to $10,000 in fees, particularly if they decide, okay, now's the time. We must withdraw our child. We feel like their safety is at risk. We're going to tell the school that our child is not coming back. The school will still insist on them paying that fee even if the child's not attending. So, you know, there could be up for up to $10,000 in fees for the withdrawal fee. Plus, if they move their child to another private school, you know, that could be another $10,000. So this is in itself a deterrent for some families from pulling their child out when they feel like they really need to pull them out. Some schools will really push the point. Some schools will be like, okay, we get it, you know. And there's a there's a big spectrum here, but some will really push the point. Um, you know, there are many, many, many cases in which schools have sent debt collectors after parents or, you know, threatened legal action. There are many, many, many cases of parents having to sign nondisclosure agreements if the school has, you know, for example, reached a deal where they might knock $2,000 off this fee, but will require parents to sign a nondisclosure agreement so that the parents don't harm the reputation of the school. Now, NDAs in the school context are really common. They're much more common than you would think. Schools do go to great lengths to protect their reputation, particularly these high fee schools. You know, we know how where they sit in the community in terms of, you know, very sought after, high prestige, long waiting lists. The last thing they want is for people to, you know, get on Facebook groups and say, well, my child had a terrible experience with bullying at that school. And for people who were withdrawing their kids from from public schools, sometimes there is just not another option. You know, sometimes the other schools are full and they can't take them. But but generally speaking, the public system tends to be a bit more flexible about things like that than the private school system in some ways.

This is so complicated and complex and emotionally fraught because we're talking about children here. And how do parents talk to children about these complex, difficult subjects like suicide and bullying?

This is so complicated and complex and emotionally fraught because we're talking about children here. And how do parents talk to children about these complex, difficult subjects like suicide and bullying?

So when we first heard about Charlotte, I sat down with Rachel Murray from the Kidman Center. Because, I mean, I have children, too, and I wanted to talk to them about it as well. It used to be, you know, 20 years ago that the advice was to not report on suicides and to not talk about suicides. That has very much changed. So the advice now is the more we talk about it, the less taboo it becomes. It means that you know, we feel much more comfortable leaning into people and saying, are you okay? Are you thinking about suicide? Rachel's advice to me that day was you can talk about it with your children in an age appropriate way. So it depends on the age. But the main message she gave me was just to make sure that the message is always. There is no problem that cannot be solved. There is no problem that is so insurmountable that there is there is not a solution. We can always work together on a solution, whatever that solution may be. We can do it together because no problem is unfixable. And you know, I did this. I did that that night with my children just to make sure that they know that they can always come to me and we will always work it out together and whatever we need to do to solve that problem or to make sure that they feel safe, we will do.

So when we first heard about Charlotte, I sat down with Rachel Murray from the Kidman Center. Because, I mean, I have children, too, and I wanted to talk to them about it as well. It used to be, you know, 20 years ago that the advice was to not report on suicides and to not talk about suicides. That has very much changed. So the advice now is the more we talk about it, the less taboo it becomes. It means that you know, we feel much more comfortable leaning into people and saying, are you okay? Are you thinking about suicide? Rachel's advice to me that day was you can talk about it with your children in an age appropriate way. So it depends on the age. But the main message she gave me was just to make sure that the message is always. There is no problem that cannot be solved. There is no problem that is so insurmountable that there is there is not a solution. We can always work together on a solution, whatever that solution may be. We can do it together because no problem is unfixable. And you know, I did this. I did that that night with my children just to make sure that they know that they can always come to me and we will always work it out together and whatever we need to do to solve that problem or to make sure that they feel safe, we will do.

Jon, thank you so much for talking about this.

Jon, thank you so much for talking about this.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Chris Payne. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Chris Payne. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.