From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Tuesday, November 26th. It's been nearly 20 years since a group of nine Australians were arrested in Bali for attempting to smuggle $4 million worth of heroin into Australia. And now, seemingly out of nowhere, five members of this group, who became known as the infamous Bali Nine have been thrust into the spotlight. A news report last week said they would be returned to Australia as soon as Christmas. So what's changed? The fate of the remaining five so dramatically? Today, senior writer Michael Bachelard, our former Indonesian correspondent on the group that once ignited a firestorm of debate and what political and cultural factors might determine their fate. So, Michael, before we get into the news, who are the Bali Nine?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Tuesday, November 26th. It's been nearly 20 years since a group of nine Australians were arrested in Bali for attempting to smuggle $4 million worth of heroin into Australia. And now, seemingly out of nowhere, five members of this group, who became known as the infamous Bali Nine have been thrust into the spotlight. A news report last week said they would be returned to Australia as soon as Christmas. So what's changed? The fate of the remaining five so dramatically? Today, senior writer Michael Bachelard, our former Indonesian correspondent on the group that once ignited a firestorm of debate and what political and cultural factors might determine their fate. So, Michael, before we get into the news, who are the Bali Nine?

The Bali Nine are a group of nine Australian young Australians who were arrested in 2005 trying to smuggle 8.3kg of heroin through Indonesia and into Australia. They were arrested in a villa in Bali as they were kind of sorting and dividing and strapping the drugs to their bodies pursuant to a tip off from the Australian Federal Police. It was the same year that Schapelle Corby was arrested. Drugs in Bali and Australians was was a huge story.

The Bali Nine are a group of nine Australian young Australians who were arrested in 2005 trying to smuggle 8.3kg of heroin through Indonesia and into Australia. They were arrested in a villa in Bali as they were kind of sorting and dividing and strapping the drugs to their bodies pursuant to a tip off from the Australian Federal Police. It was the same year that Schapelle Corby was arrested. Drugs in Bali and Australians was was a huge story.

Heroin strapped to their bodies at Denpasar airport. They're images that will forever be imprinted in the minds of Australians. The Bali Nine catapulted to infamy in a failed drug smuggling operation, and for the past two decades, the twists, turns and tragedy of the case have never been far from the headlines.

Heroin strapped to their bodies at Denpasar airport. They're images that will forever be imprinted in the minds of Australians. The Bali Nine catapulted to infamy in a failed drug smuggling operation, and for the past two decades, the twists, turns and tragedy of the case have never been far from the headlines.

They became really the center of this massive media storm, both for Indonesia and Australia. And ultimately they were sentenced to sentences that varied from death to life to 20 years in prison. And ultimately, in 2015, two of them, Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan, were executed. The others ones died of cancer. Since then, one, the Renae Lawrence, who had a 20 year sentence, has been released and five remain in various prisons in Indonesia.

They became really the center of this massive media storm, both for Indonesia and Australia. And ultimately they were sentenced to sentences that varied from death to life to 20 years in prison. And ultimately, in 2015, two of them, Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan, were executed. The others ones died of cancer. Since then, one, the Renae Lawrence, who had a 20 year sentence, has been released and five remain in various prisons in Indonesia.

Yin Shen, Michael Sujak, Matthew Norman, Scott Rush and Martin Stephens were told by a judge they'd never be released from prison, but freedom could now be near.

Yin Shen, Michael Sujak, Matthew Norman, Scott Rush and Martin Stephens were told by a judge they'd never be released from prison, but freedom could now be near.

And so tell me, why are we talking about them now?

And so tell me, why are we talking about them now?

Well, it's kind of come out of the blue. I think the lobbying for their release has been on and off over the years by Australian governments. They've served now 19 years of of their life sentences, those who got life. And in Indonesia, that means they'll they'll spend the rest of their natural lives in prison. So the Australian government has, I think, behind the scenes, been asking for their release through various Indonesian administrations. But earlier this year, a new president was elected in Indonesia, Prabowo Subianto. And it appears that those requests have landed on more fertile ground with Prabowo. And suddenly, really out of the blue, it seems the justice minister announced last week that it looked like they were going to be released, the remaining five, and that they'd be home sort of by December, which I think took everyone a bit by surprise.

Well, it's kind of come out of the blue. I think the lobbying for their release has been on and off over the years by Australian governments. They've served now 19 years of of their life sentences, those who got life. And in Indonesia, that means they'll they'll spend the rest of their natural lives in prison. So the Australian government has, I think, behind the scenes, been asking for their release through various Indonesian administrations. But earlier this year, a new president was elected in Indonesia, Prabowo Subianto. And it appears that those requests have landed on more fertile ground with Prabowo. And suddenly, really out of the blue, it seems the justice minister announced last week that it looked like they were going to be released, the remaining five, and that they'd be home sort of by December, which I think took everyone a bit by surprise.

It's not yet known if the deal involves a prisoner swap, or if they will serve additional jail time on their return. But one thing is guaranteed. Once again, the eyes of Australia will be watching on as it unfolds.

It's not yet known if the deal involves a prisoner swap, or if they will serve additional jail time on their return. But one thing is guaranteed. Once again, the eyes of Australia will be watching on as it unfolds.

Absolutely. I mean, I'm sure a lot of listeners were like myself, which is I was left thinking, why? Why are we talking about the Bali Nine now? So tell me, Michael, how close to a done deal is this transfer? What's going on?

Absolutely. I mean, I'm sure a lot of listeners were like myself, which is I was left thinking, why? Why are we talking about the Bali Nine now? So tell me, Michael, how close to a done deal is this transfer? What's going on?

That's a really good question. And it's a hard question to answer at the moment. The latest I'm getting from Indonesia. And this could change, you know, over the course of the days and weeks to come, is that various people are not really aware of what the process might be or of what the time frame might be, and that it seems that December may be a little bit ambitious. It was the relevant and appropriate minister who made the announcement. But that doesn't necessarily mean in a new government that all the arrangements to make this happen are necessarily in place. In most circumstances, it it it would require that the president sign off on it. The president has apparently given kind of approval, at least prima facie. But nothing has yet been presented to him to sign, so there are a few boxes to tick yet, but it's certainly good news. I think that the that the process is underway and that we're talking about it.

That's a really good question. And it's a hard question to answer at the moment. The latest I'm getting from Indonesia. And this could change, you know, over the course of the days and weeks to come, is that various people are not really aware of what the process might be or of what the time frame might be, and that it seems that December may be a little bit ambitious. It was the relevant and appropriate minister who made the announcement. But that doesn't necessarily mean in a new government that all the arrangements to make this happen are necessarily in place. In most circumstances, it it it would require that the president sign off on it. The president has apparently given kind of approval, at least prima facie. But nothing has yet been presented to him to sign, so there are a few boxes to tick yet, but it's certainly good news. I think that the that the process is underway and that we're talking about it.

But why was this actually a surprise? I mean, was it actually a leak? Because we saw the report on Friday that this minister in Indonesia had said, well, it looks like this is going ahead. And then it was printed as though this was a fait accompli, that this was something that was going ahead, this release and and then conversations since then seem to have suggested otherwise. Oh, no, this is actually not a fait accompli. So tell us what's going on there.

But why was this actually a surprise? I mean, was it actually a leak? Because we saw the report on Friday that this minister in Indonesia had said, well, it looks like this is going ahead. And then it was printed as though this was a fait accompli, that this was something that was going ahead, this release and and then conversations since then seem to have suggested otherwise. Oh, no, this is actually not a fait accompli. So tell us what's going on there.

Look, over many years of covering Indonesian politics and and public service, it's it has come to my attention in the past that sometimes things are announced, but they're not followed through. It can be that things that the Indonesian bureaucracy is a little bit more complicated than it would otherwise seem, and that ministerial announcements are not necessarily fait accompli. Now, that said, there are serious discussions underway for the release of a prisoner from the Philippines. A woman called Mary Jane Veloso, who's been subject of long lobbying by the Philippine government towards Indonesia, and that does seem to be going ahead. So there seems to be a move with the current president towards giving more, I guess, clemency to foreign drug smugglers than has been the case in the past in Indonesia. And so there's definitely room for hope, but it may not happen as quickly as as was billed in the first announcement.

Look, over many years of covering Indonesian politics and and public service, it's it has come to my attention in the past that sometimes things are announced, but they're not followed through. It can be that things that the Indonesian bureaucracy is a little bit more complicated than it would otherwise seem, and that ministerial announcements are not necessarily fait accompli. Now, that said, there are serious discussions underway for the release of a prisoner from the Philippines. A woman called Mary Jane Veloso, who's been subject of long lobbying by the Philippine government towards Indonesia, and that does seem to be going ahead. So there seems to be a move with the current president towards giving more, I guess, clemency to foreign drug smugglers than has been the case in the past in Indonesia. And so there's definitely room for hope, but it may not happen as quickly as as was billed in the first announcement.

And just briefly, Michael, I mean, the story, the fact that it's been in the media, how might that actually impact negotiations? I mean, might it thwart them somehow?

And just briefly, Michael, I mean, the story, the fact that it's been in the media, how might that actually impact negotiations? I mean, might it thwart them somehow?

Well, there is a bit of a danger zone here, which I guess is, is whether it becomes an inflamed issue in the Indonesian public and the Indonesian media. I certainly remember that when Schapelle Corby was released in 2014, she was whisked away to a luxury compound in Bali by an Australian TV crew. In In Limousines, she was spotted sipping beer, and this was after she'd been given clemency on the grounds of mental health. And here she was, rubbing the noses of the Indonesian people and the Indonesian justice system in this, in her freedom. And that really I mean, Indonesia's a democracy. It's a proud sovereign nation. It has a long colonial history. And so there's a there are some sensitivities around Westerners lording it over, over the Indonesian justice system. And that and, and I think we need to be mindful of not being seen to be doing that on this occasion as well. It is up to the Indonesian system whether they decide to release these five Australians, and nothing we do to push or pull All can or should change that. In fact, pulling too hard could be counterproductive.

Well, there is a bit of a danger zone here, which I guess is, is whether it becomes an inflamed issue in the Indonesian public and the Indonesian media. I certainly remember that when Schapelle Corby was released in 2014, she was whisked away to a luxury compound in Bali by an Australian TV crew. In In Limousines, she was spotted sipping beer, and this was after she'd been given clemency on the grounds of mental health. And here she was, rubbing the noses of the Indonesian people and the Indonesian justice system in this, in her freedom. And that really I mean, Indonesia's a democracy. It's a proud sovereign nation. It has a long colonial history. And so there's a there are some sensitivities around Westerners lording it over, over the Indonesian justice system. And that and, and I think we need to be mindful of not being seen to be doing that on this occasion as well. It is up to the Indonesian system whether they decide to release these five Australians, and nothing we do to push or pull All can or should change that. In fact, pulling too hard could be counterproductive.

We'll be back in a minute. And you mentioned the election of Indonesia's new president, Prabowo Subianto, that he may be more open to such a transfer than, say, his predecessor. So why?

We'll be back in a minute. And you mentioned the election of Indonesia's new president, Prabowo Subianto, that he may be more open to such a transfer than, say, his predecessor. So why?

That's a really good question. Prabowo is a bit of a mystery in a sense. He's he's a former military leader. He came under serious criticism for some, you know, back in the 80s for some of the wars within Indonesia, both in East Timor but also in West Papua. For some of his actions, he was seen for many years by the West as being an unpalatable leader of Indonesia, but he's become the president. The West has agreed that they will work with him, and it seems to me this is my interpretation that the previous leader, Joko Widodo needed to really establish with the Indonesian public his strongman credentials, and one of the ways he chose to do that was by executing drug prisoners. And in 2015 and 2016, I think there was something like 18 or 20 prisoners on death row who were executed. Now, none has been executed since. Those executions were very popular with the Indonesian public, and they helped. Jokowi, as he was known, show the public that he was neither weak nor beholden to the West. Now, again, my interpretation is that Prabowo doesn't need to show that to the Indonesian public. People know that he's a tough guy. And so conversely, like ironically, perhaps in a sense, he feels more comfortable making a move that otherwise might seem quite controversial, which is releasing Western drug smugglers.

That's a really good question. Prabowo is a bit of a mystery in a sense. He's he's a former military leader. He came under serious criticism for some, you know, back in the 80s for some of the wars within Indonesia, both in East Timor but also in West Papua. For some of his actions, he was seen for many years by the West as being an unpalatable leader of Indonesia, but he's become the president. The West has agreed that they will work with him, and it seems to me this is my interpretation that the previous leader, Joko Widodo needed to really establish with the Indonesian public his strongman credentials, and one of the ways he chose to do that was by executing drug prisoners. And in 2015 and 2016, I think there was something like 18 or 20 prisoners on death row who were executed. Now, none has been executed since. Those executions were very popular with the Indonesian public, and they helped. Jokowi, as he was known, show the public that he was neither weak nor beholden to the West. Now, again, my interpretation is that Prabowo doesn't need to show that to the Indonesian public. People know that he's a tough guy. And so conversely, like ironically, perhaps in a sense, he feels more comfortable making a move that otherwise might seem quite controversial, which is releasing Western drug smugglers.

Okay, so it seems like there is perhaps a greater chance than ever of a transfer occurring because of this new political environment. But what could derail it? Could it be pushed back from Indonesia? Or is the fate of the transfer really in the hands of how the Australian government plays this?

Okay, so it seems like there is perhaps a greater chance than ever of a transfer occurring because of this new political environment. But what could derail it? Could it be pushed back from Indonesia? Or is the fate of the transfer really in the hands of how the Australian government plays this?

I think the Australian government has to be careful and I think they know they have to be careful. They've they've really paid a bit of a dead bat to the speculation that's arisen after this announcement from Indonesia. They don't want to be seen to be triumphal about it. They want to be seen to be, I guess, mindful of the sensitivities within Indonesia and the fact that this is an Indonesian sovereign decision, and I think so far that they've they've done that. Really the controlling issue here will be what the Indonesian government and including up to and including the Indonesian president Prabowo, want to do here, Prabowo would need to sign on any of the scenarios, would need to sign off on any decision to release these five remaining Bali Nine men. And so, yeah, Australia will need to be and I think so far is being kind of mindful of of those sensitivities.

I think the Australian government has to be careful and I think they know they have to be careful. They've they've really paid a bit of a dead bat to the speculation that's arisen after this announcement from Indonesia. They don't want to be seen to be triumphal about it. They want to be seen to be, I guess, mindful of the sensitivities within Indonesia and the fact that this is an Indonesian sovereign decision, and I think so far that they've they've done that. Really the controlling issue here will be what the Indonesian government and including up to and including the Indonesian president Prabowo, want to do here, Prabowo would need to sign on any of the scenarios, would need to sign off on any decision to release these five remaining Bali Nine men. And so, yeah, Australia will need to be and I think so far is being kind of mindful of of those sensitivities.

Now, Michael, we've spoken a fair bit about the politics of this transfer. If this does go ahead, but can you tell us how significant this would be for the families?

Now, Michael, we've spoken a fair bit about the politics of this transfer. If this does go ahead, but can you tell us how significant this would be for the families?

Oh, look, this would be hugely significant for the families. Um, you know, these aren't wealthy people. The mules, the five who are remaining. None of them were ringleaders. They were all just people who had drugs strapped to their bodies. They stood to gain $10,000 out of this, which, you know, in 2005 was probably enough to buy a decent second hand car. They weren't going to get rich out of it. They weren't rich, and their families have struggled to visit them, to keep in contact with them in the various Indonesian prisons that they're now in. There's been huge hardship for both the families and for these these young, not so young anymore people. And, you know, it would mean an enormous amount for them to be coming home, facing life in prison without hope of release or parole is an incredibly dispiriting thing. And they've they've spent they've lived with that for 19 years. Um, so yeah, it would mean a huge amount for them to be able to come home.

Oh, look, this would be hugely significant for the families. Um, you know, these aren't wealthy people. The mules, the five who are remaining. None of them were ringleaders. They were all just people who had drugs strapped to their bodies. They stood to gain $10,000 out of this, which, you know, in 2005 was probably enough to buy a decent second hand car. They weren't going to get rich out of it. They weren't rich, and their families have struggled to visit them, to keep in contact with them in the various Indonesian prisons that they're now in. There's been huge hardship for both the families and for these these young, not so young anymore people. And, you know, it would mean an enormous amount for them to be coming home, facing life in prison without hope of release or parole is an incredibly dispiriting thing. And they've they've spent they've lived with that for 19 years. Um, so yeah, it would mean a huge amount for them to be able to come home.

Now, Michael, the reason we were so looking forward to having you on today is because you really do have a unique insight into this, because you were our Indonesian correspondent from 2012 and you visited members of the Bali Nine in jail several times. You had correspondence with Myuran Sukumaran in the lead up to his execution. This story did have a significant impact on you. So what are you thinking about this potential transfer?

Now, Michael, the reason we were so looking forward to having you on today is because you really do have a unique insight into this, because you were our Indonesian correspondent from 2012 and you visited members of the Bali Nine in jail several times. You had correspondence with Myuran Sukumaran in the lead up to his execution. This story did have a significant impact on you. So what are you thinking about this potential transfer?

It's interesting. I haven't thought about them for some time, just as many Australians haven't. But as soon as I heard the news, I, you know, I devoured every scrap of it. Yeah, I know some of these people. I got to know Martin Stephens reasonably well. Matthew Norman, I've, I've spoken to Myuran Particularly, I had a lot of time for and a lot of time with. I spent several days with Ben Quilty, the artist in the art room at Kerobokan Prison, as as Myuran became ultimately an artist, quite a promising artist. He was a good guy, you know. Andrew Chan was training to be a pastor when he was executed. You know, they'd known that they'd done the wrong thing. They had reformed. They had tried to do everything they could to prove to the Indonesian system that they were reformed men, and they acknowledged their mistakes and the harm that they could potentially have done, and felt really bad for that and were seeking to atone for it. Um, you know, I think 19 years is long enough. And and that's why I think when the when the news broke, I began hoping that that also that that we might be able to get a breakthrough here.

It's interesting. I haven't thought about them for some time, just as many Australians haven't. But as soon as I heard the news, I, you know, I devoured every scrap of it. Yeah, I know some of these people. I got to know Martin Stephens reasonably well. Matthew Norman, I've, I've spoken to Myuran Particularly, I had a lot of time for and a lot of time with. I spent several days with Ben Quilty, the artist in the art room at Kerobokan Prison, as as Myuran became ultimately an artist, quite a promising artist. He was a good guy, you know. Andrew Chan was training to be a pastor when he was executed. You know, they'd known that they'd done the wrong thing. They had reformed. They had tried to do everything they could to prove to the Indonesian system that they were reformed men, and they acknowledged their mistakes and the harm that they could potentially have done, and felt really bad for that and were seeking to atone for it. Um, you know, I think 19 years is long enough. And and that's why I think when the when the news broke, I began hoping that that also that that we might be able to get a breakthrough here.

Well, thank you so much, Michael, for your time.

Well, thank you so much, Michael, for your time.

It's always a pleasure. Thank you.

It's always a pleasure. Thank you.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Taylor Dent. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Taylor Dent. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.