From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday, April 2nd. The government and the opposition have been fighting over power strategies for months now, just about assaulting us with a flurry of numbers and claims over which method will lead to cheaper household bills. And now the coalition has announced a shock new gas policy. So is Peter Dutton's unprecedented scheme just a bid to win political points rather than a legitimate means to keep our appliances running and us warm at relatively little cost? Or is the opposition leader on to a winner today? Business reporter Nick Toscano and climate and energy reporter Mike Foley help us wade through the spin to tell us which energy plan is best for both us and the environment. So Mike and Nick tell us, why is gas all over the news right now? Mike, I'm going to start with you first.

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday, April 2nd. The government and the opposition have been fighting over power strategies for months now, just about assaulting us with a flurry of numbers and claims over which method will lead to cheaper household bills. And now the coalition has announced a shock new gas policy. So is Peter Dutton's unprecedented scheme just a bid to win political points rather than a legitimate means to keep our appliances running and us warm at relatively little cost? Or is the opposition leader on to a winner today? Business reporter Nick Toscano and climate and energy reporter Mike Foley help us wade through the spin to tell us which energy plan is best for both us and the environment. So Mike and Nick tell us, why is gas all over the news right now? Mike, I'm going to start with you first.

Short answer. Sam, is it's become an election issue. So with the federal election being held on May 3rd, the opposition led by Peter Dutton, has elevated gas to become one of his main policy areas that he's pitching to the general public people.

Short answer. Sam, is it's become an election issue. So with the federal election being held on May 3rd, the opposition led by Peter Dutton, has elevated gas to become one of his main policy areas that he's pitching to the general public people.

This includes, as you know, by immediately delivering more Australian gas for Australians. It will lower energy costs and it will prepare us for the future as we need cheaper energy. We need reliable energy and we need cleaner energy.

This includes, as you know, by immediately delivering more Australian gas for Australians. It will lower energy costs and it will prepare us for the future as we need cheaper energy. We need reliable energy and we need cleaner energy.

As a benefit, if you elect Peter Dutton, you're going to get all this great stuff with gas policy.

As a benefit, if you elect Peter Dutton, you're going to get all this great stuff with gas policy.

That's why a coalition government will cut fuel excise by $0.25 a litre, so that every time you fill up your car or your ute at the bowser, it's about $14 cheaper. Our plan.

That's why a coalition government will cut fuel excise by $0.25 a litre, so that every time you fill up your car or your ute at the bowser, it's about $14 cheaper. Our plan.

And now the two major parties. Labor, with Anthony Albanese leading it. And Dutton are fighting, let's say, in public over their various gas policies.

And now the two major parties. Labor, with Anthony Albanese leading it. And Dutton are fighting, let's say, in public over their various gas policies.

They've taken a Morrison policy and reheated in the microwave. That's problem number one. Gas. The gas fired recovery was announced by Angus Taylor in 2020.

They've taken a Morrison policy and reheated in the microwave. That's problem number one. Gas. The gas fired recovery was announced by Angus Taylor in 2020.

In a nutshell, what Peter Dutton is proposing he has what he claims a plan to flood the local Australian market with Bountiful supplies of gas. Why does he want to do that? It's all about household cost of living. Gas is a major part of electricity generation. It's not the main part of electricity generation. Australia's energy mix currently comprises about 50% coal fired power. Roughly 40% comes from renewables in solar and wind farms, and around 10% of that is gas power plants generating electricity. But gas helps set the price of your electricity bill. And we're currently about starting to run short of gas supplies. That makes the price of it go up. It makes your hip pocket hurt more. And Peter Dutton is saying, I've got this shock move to punish all the big dodgy gas companies and steal gas off them in the Robin Hood move to, to help Australians have more of it. It's a lot more complicated than that, of course, but that's what we're being told by Peter Dutton and that's why it's in the news.

In a nutshell, what Peter Dutton is proposing he has what he claims a plan to flood the local Australian market with Bountiful supplies of gas. Why does he want to do that? It's all about household cost of living. Gas is a major part of electricity generation. It's not the main part of electricity generation. Australia's energy mix currently comprises about 50% coal fired power. Roughly 40% comes from renewables in solar and wind farms, and around 10% of that is gas power plants generating electricity. But gas helps set the price of your electricity bill. And we're currently about starting to run short of gas supplies. That makes the price of it go up. It makes your hip pocket hurt more. And Peter Dutton is saying, I've got this shock move to punish all the big dodgy gas companies and steal gas off them in the Robin Hood move to, to help Australians have more of it. It's a lot more complicated than that, of course, but that's what we're being told by Peter Dutton and that's why it's in the news.

Okay, now that's a really good start. I want to go to you, Nick, though, because I want you to help us really strip this back and talk about the basics. So what is gas and where does it come from?

Okay, now that's a really good start. I want to go to you, Nick, though, because I want you to help us really strip this back and talk about the basics. So what is gas and where does it come from?

Well, it depends how far you want to strip it back. If we go back millions of years, there were animals, plants and other organisms that were around back then. They died, they decomposed and their remains became buried under layers of rock and sediment and, um. And then if you fast forward millions of years to the more modern era, over the past century or so, these have become trapped in the Earth's crust or under the seabed and what's known as fossil fuels. So that's coal, oil and natural gas. They have become some of the primary energy sources that were used to power our modern world. So natural gas is made up primarily of methane. And in Australia, for instance, it's found mostly under the seabed in the narrow stretch of water between Victoria and Tasmania, the Bass Strait. And it was discovered as a byproduct of oil drilling there back in the 60s. And it very soon became in and of itself, a cheap and abundant source of energy all across the south eastern states. So before long, gas processing plants were built, a vast network of pipelines sprung up, and it pumped gas directly into, um, into millions of households who, uh, who went on to use the fuel as a cheap and abundant source of energy. It was used in household stove tops, hot water units, gas heaters, and it's also used in the power grid as a source of electricity. Gas is burnt in gas fired power stations, which which can, you know, ramp up at a moment's notice and help support gaps in the grid when they emerge. But I guess because gas is a fossil fuel, it's also a major source of emissions and one that we're as a society, increasingly trying to get rid of. But I guess, as with other fossil fuels like coal and oil, it is still used really widely. Um, in Australia and and around the world. And the push to kind of to, to get off it, to wean ourselves off it is, um, emerging as something that's perhaps easier said than done.

Well, it depends how far you want to strip it back. If we go back millions of years, there were animals, plants and other organisms that were around back then. They died, they decomposed and their remains became buried under layers of rock and sediment and, um. And then if you fast forward millions of years to the more modern era, over the past century or so, these have become trapped in the Earth's crust or under the seabed and what's known as fossil fuels. So that's coal, oil and natural gas. They have become some of the primary energy sources that were used to power our modern world. So natural gas is made up primarily of methane. And in Australia, for instance, it's found mostly under the seabed in the narrow stretch of water between Victoria and Tasmania, the Bass Strait. And it was discovered as a byproduct of oil drilling there back in the 60s. And it very soon became in and of itself, a cheap and abundant source of energy all across the south eastern states. So before long, gas processing plants were built, a vast network of pipelines sprung up, and it pumped gas directly into, um, into millions of households who, uh, who went on to use the fuel as a cheap and abundant source of energy. It was used in household stove tops, hot water units, gas heaters, and it's also used in the power grid as a source of electricity. Gas is burnt in gas fired power stations, which which can, you know, ramp up at a moment's notice and help support gaps in the grid when they emerge. But I guess because gas is a fossil fuel, it's also a major source of emissions and one that we're as a society, increasingly trying to get rid of. But I guess, as with other fossil fuels like coal and oil, it is still used really widely. Um, in Australia and and around the world. And the push to kind of to, to get off it, to wean ourselves off it is, um, emerging as something that's perhaps easier said than done.

And it's so valuable.

And it's so valuable.

Here in Australia. I was actually quite shocked. Mike. We spoke just before we started recording today, and you said that we're actually one of the biggest sellers of gas around the world. I definitely did not know that. So it's important for our national supply, but also globally too. Mike, can you just sort of walk us through this?

Here in Australia. I was actually quite shocked. Mike. We spoke just before we started recording today, and you said that we're actually one of the biggest sellers of gas around the world. I definitely did not know that. So it's important for our national supply, but also globally too. Mike, can you just sort of walk us through this?

Yeah, it is a bit surprising, isn't it, Sam? Because it's not something that's front of mind. But Australia's there or thereabouts as the biggest exporter of gas into the global market. You know, maybe America might overtake us one year, but we'll be level pegging with them and overtake the next. And we're in that position because we export from the vast and rich West Australian offshore gas fields and also the huge onshore gas fields in Queensland, which were developed in the early noughties and sort of got $70 billion eye watering sums worth of investment from international companies from Japan, Korea and China to to fuel this huge development. And now we we are just a gargantuan exporter. It's a huge contribution to the local economy, this gas export game in terms of royalties and company taxes. But let's be honest, it's a really weird situation that not a whole lot of that gas makes its way back into the local market. Now it has to be said that's because there, you know, compared to how much we export, there isn't a great demand in Australia for that gas. We're a pretty small economy compared to the amount of gas we're sending offshore. But. What happened at the time in around the 2013, I think it was when the taps were turned on, the Queensland gas field started exporting via ships into South east Asia. There, the gas companies weren't slapped with what's a pretty normal requirement around the world to reserve a certain portion of that gas for the local market, you know, sort of like as a condition of, okay, big multinational gas company, you're allowed to suck gas out of the Commonwealth of Australians like the resources are owned by the citizens. We'll let you do that. Extract the value for your company. But you've got to give us something in return. And usually that means reserve a bit of the gas. So if we ever need extra, it's there. What happened at the time was a pretty swift maneuver by the gas companies. They told the Gillard government at the time, the federal government. Ah, don't worry about it. There's so much gas under the ground here that we are going to create. And they use the phrase global glut of gas and the globally, the prices will be super low from here to eternity, and Australia will be able to buy gas for next to nothing. Don't worry about it. And guess what the Gillard government said at the time? I mean, they would have had a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock, but they said, yeah, righto, that sounds good. Um, so now we're in this situation where a whole heap of that gas is going offshore, and it is. Nick can correct me here, but it's increasingly hard for Australian electricity generators and Australian manufacturers and Australian households even to get that gas at a really cheap price, because we're not producing quite as much gas as we thought. Even though we're a big exporter, it hasn't lived up to the stratospheric expectations that were created at the time.

Yeah, it is a bit surprising, isn't it, Sam? Because it's not something that's front of mind. But Australia's there or thereabouts as the biggest exporter of gas into the global market. You know, maybe America might overtake us one year, but we'll be level pegging with them and overtake the next. And we're in that position because we export from the vast and rich West Australian offshore gas fields and also the huge onshore gas fields in Queensland, which were developed in the early noughties and sort of got $70 billion eye watering sums worth of investment from international companies from Japan, Korea and China to to fuel this huge development. And now we we are just a gargantuan exporter. It's a huge contribution to the local economy, this gas export game in terms of royalties and company taxes. But let's be honest, it's a really weird situation that not a whole lot of that gas makes its way back into the local market. Now it has to be said that's because there, you know, compared to how much we export, there isn't a great demand in Australia for that gas. We're a pretty small economy compared to the amount of gas we're sending offshore. But. What happened at the time in around the 2013, I think it was when the taps were turned on, the Queensland gas field started exporting via ships into South east Asia. There, the gas companies weren't slapped with what's a pretty normal requirement around the world to reserve a certain portion of that gas for the local market, you know, sort of like as a condition of, okay, big multinational gas company, you're allowed to suck gas out of the Commonwealth of Australians like the resources are owned by the citizens. We'll let you do that. Extract the value for your company. But you've got to give us something in return. And usually that means reserve a bit of the gas. So if we ever need extra, it's there. What happened at the time was a pretty swift maneuver by the gas companies. They told the Gillard government at the time, the federal government. Ah, don't worry about it. There's so much gas under the ground here that we are going to create. And they use the phrase global glut of gas and the globally, the prices will be super low from here to eternity, and Australia will be able to buy gas for next to nothing. Don't worry about it. And guess what the Gillard government said at the time? I mean, they would have had a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock, but they said, yeah, righto, that sounds good. Um, so now we're in this situation where a whole heap of that gas is going offshore, and it is. Nick can correct me here, but it's increasingly hard for Australian electricity generators and Australian manufacturers and Australian households even to get that gas at a really cheap price, because we're not producing quite as much gas as we thought. Even though we're a big exporter, it hasn't lived up to the stratospheric expectations that were created at the time.

So, Nick, does that paint the whole picture? That's why even though we are the largest or one of the largest exporters of gas to the world, we keep being told that we're heading for a gas shortage. So does that basically sum up why we just don't we're not keeping enough for ourselves. We're just sending it all overseas.

So, Nick, does that paint the whole picture? That's why even though we are the largest or one of the largest exporters of gas to the world, we keep being told that we're heading for a gas shortage. So does that basically sum up why we just don't we're not keeping enough for ourselves. We're just sending it all overseas.

On one sense, yes. On another sense. There's a bit more to the story. You know, obviously it's a situation that many find a bitter pill to swallow in a, you know, gas rich Australia, a major gas exporter in our own right, has a domestic shortage on the horizon. It seems sort of, you know, difficult to comprehend. But I guess the simplest explanation is that it comes down to the fact Australia is a very big country, and there is a sort of a lopsidedness to our fossil fuel endowment. So, yeah, while we said earlier, most of the gas historically, um, for uh, in Australia came out of the Bass Strait in the south. Those sources of supply which at one point in time supplied up to two thirds of our domestic gas needs. Those fields in Bass Strait have entered now a period of rapid decline. The pace of decline out of Bass Strait is happening so rapidly that there's an expectation that gas supply in Victoria and New South Wales will fall 30% by 2029. They're drying up fast and there has not been enough investment in new gas fields around Victoria, New South Wales and the like to offset those declines and to to keep supplies steady. At the same time, these massive gas fields up in Queensland, which have become major exporters of super chilled liquefied natural gas to the global market, as well as being significant domestic contributors as well. Those are have the difficulty of the fact that they're located very, very far away. There is only limited pipeline capacity that can transport the gas produced in Queensland thousands of kilometres down into New South Wales and into Victoria. Especially when it's needed most in winter. There's only one pipeline that transports gas from Queensland down south and in winter. That pipeline is already running full. And that poses a problem because if there's no supplies in the South when they're most needed to meet peak winter heating demand, what happens then? That's the real crux of the shortage here. There's also insufficient gas storage facilities in the south. So, you know, even if the Queenslanders transported more gas into Victoria in the off season, I suppose, how would you store it? That's an unanswered question. And we also produce a lot of gas in WA, as Mike mentioned. But there's currently no way to transport the gas from was vast gas fields into the south east because there's no pipeline that crosses the country.

On one sense, yes. On another sense. There's a bit more to the story. You know, obviously it's a situation that many find a bitter pill to swallow in a, you know, gas rich Australia, a major gas exporter in our own right, has a domestic shortage on the horizon. It seems sort of, you know, difficult to comprehend. But I guess the simplest explanation is that it comes down to the fact Australia is a very big country, and there is a sort of a lopsidedness to our fossil fuel endowment. So, yeah, while we said earlier, most of the gas historically, um, for uh, in Australia came out of the Bass Strait in the south. Those sources of supply which at one point in time supplied up to two thirds of our domestic gas needs. Those fields in Bass Strait have entered now a period of rapid decline. The pace of decline out of Bass Strait is happening so rapidly that there's an expectation that gas supply in Victoria and New South Wales will fall 30% by 2029. They're drying up fast and there has not been enough investment in new gas fields around Victoria, New South Wales and the like to offset those declines and to to keep supplies steady. At the same time, these massive gas fields up in Queensland, which have become major exporters of super chilled liquefied natural gas to the global market, as well as being significant domestic contributors as well. Those are have the difficulty of the fact that they're located very, very far away. There is only limited pipeline capacity that can transport the gas produced in Queensland thousands of kilometres down into New South Wales and into Victoria. Especially when it's needed most in winter. There's only one pipeline that transports gas from Queensland down south and in winter. That pipeline is already running full. And that poses a problem because if there's no supplies in the South when they're most needed to meet peak winter heating demand, what happens then? That's the real crux of the shortage here. There's also insufficient gas storage facilities in the south. So, you know, even if the Queenslanders transported more gas into Victoria in the off season, I suppose, how would you store it? That's an unanswered question. And we also produce a lot of gas in WA, as Mike mentioned. But there's currently no way to transport the gas from was vast gas fields into the south east because there's no pipeline that crosses the country.

So what does that mean? Does that mean that by 2029 or some time around there. There actually won't be enough gas to heat homes in winter, for example.

So what does that mean? Does that mean that by 2029 or some time around there. There actually won't be enough gas to heat homes in winter, for example.

Yeah, well, there could be an actual shortage of gas, which is a horrifying thing to think about in a country where millions of people still depend on it for heating and for for cooking and for for business and whatever it might be. Um, the the real threat is that authorities will be forced to potentially ration gas during peak winter demand periods between homes who need it, between the electricity grid that needs it to create gas powered generation and the manufacturers that need it to keep operating. And as Mike mentioned, when supplies tighten to these sorts of extreme levels, um, we know what will happen to prices. They're going to go through the roof. And that's obviously the last thing that anyone would want to see.

Yeah, well, there could be an actual shortage of gas, which is a horrifying thing to think about in a country where millions of people still depend on it for heating and for for cooking and for for business and whatever it might be. Um, the the real threat is that authorities will be forced to potentially ration gas during peak winter demand periods between homes who need it, between the electricity grid that needs it to create gas powered generation and the manufacturers that need it to keep operating. And as Mike mentioned, when supplies tighten to these sorts of extreme levels, um, we know what will happen to prices. They're going to go through the roof. And that's obviously the last thing that anyone would want to see.

We'll be right back. Nick, one thing I really need to ask you about is, of course, the environmental impact in all of this. People are using less gas because they're they're choosing induction cooktops over gas burners. So where does this whole gas thing sit in in this debate about moving away from fossil fuels to renewable energy?

We'll be right back. Nick, one thing I really need to ask you about is, of course, the environmental impact in all of this. People are using less gas because they're they're choosing induction cooktops over gas burners. So where does this whole gas thing sit in in this debate about moving away from fossil fuels to renewable energy?

On a spectrum of fossil fuels, gas is often considered the least dirty. It burns more cleanly than coal when it's used to generate electricity. And yeah, there's a recognition that the world needs to stop using coal and oil and switch to cleaner electric alternatives, but that the role of gas may be a bit more enduring. At least, that's according to proponents of of the fuel and many official forecasts. The role of gas, I guess, is under a cloud because it's considered in some quarters a vital sort of transition fuel. It's contributing to global warming. It produces carbon dioxide and methane and their greenhouse gas emissions, but it's estimated to have about half the lifecycle emissions of coal. And it's also considered something that can be used as more coal fired power stations retire in the grid. It can be used to ramp up and down really quickly and back up weather dependent renewable energy during periods of low wind and low sunlight, so sometimes called a transition fuel. But not everyone sort of agrees with that. And there are many different forecasts about what the role of gas will look like in the shift to cleaner and cleaner energy. You know, some people say gas isn't a transition fuel. It's it's a dead end. If we're going to get serious about ratcheting up climate action, um, you know, gas releases carbon dioxide, it also releases methane, which although overall a less significant contributor to global warming, it's a more potent greenhouse gas than, um, than carbon dioxide is. And um, and obviously the role of, of gas in the transition to a cleaner economy kind of depends on how aggressive we ultimately decide to to ratchet up our, our push to a greener future. Um, you know, Technologies are advancing all the time, big batteries are becoming bigger and more powerful, and investments are happening all across the grid to find ways to put renewable energy aside and use it when we most need it. So there are definitely questions about its future.

On a spectrum of fossil fuels, gas is often considered the least dirty. It burns more cleanly than coal when it's used to generate electricity. And yeah, there's a recognition that the world needs to stop using coal and oil and switch to cleaner electric alternatives, but that the role of gas may be a bit more enduring. At least, that's according to proponents of of the fuel and many official forecasts. The role of gas, I guess, is under a cloud because it's considered in some quarters a vital sort of transition fuel. It's contributing to global warming. It produces carbon dioxide and methane and their greenhouse gas emissions, but it's estimated to have about half the lifecycle emissions of coal. And it's also considered something that can be used as more coal fired power stations retire in the grid. It can be used to ramp up and down really quickly and back up weather dependent renewable energy during periods of low wind and low sunlight, so sometimes called a transition fuel. But not everyone sort of agrees with that. And there are many different forecasts about what the role of gas will look like in the shift to cleaner and cleaner energy. You know, some people say gas isn't a transition fuel. It's it's a dead end. If we're going to get serious about ratcheting up climate action, um, you know, gas releases carbon dioxide, it also releases methane, which although overall a less significant contributor to global warming, it's a more potent greenhouse gas than, um, than carbon dioxide is. And um, and obviously the role of, of gas in the transition to a cleaner economy kind of depends on how aggressive we ultimately decide to to ratchet up our, our push to a greener future. Um, you know, Technologies are advancing all the time, big batteries are becoming bigger and more powerful, and investments are happening all across the grid to find ways to put renewable energy aside and use it when we most need it. So there are definitely questions about its future.

And just to put a fine point on the coalition's plan here, I mean, it would include accelerating new gas drilling projects, right? So would Peter Dutton's plan lead us to burn more fossil fuels than we are currently burning?

And just to put a fine point on the coalition's plan here, I mean, it would include accelerating new gas drilling projects, right? So would Peter Dutton's plan lead us to burn more fossil fuels than we are currently burning?

That is the goal. The rhetoric from the Dutton opposition is they're aiming to flood the Australian market with gas by really speeding up environmental assessments so you can get your project. If you're a private company, get your project approved in half the time that it would normally take, and make it much easier for developers to build their projects, much easier for investment to flow into those developments. You know, their goal is to to lower the price of gas so people use more of it. That means burn more of it. But, Sam, let's remember, this is an election commitment that both the opposition and the government of the day always make. Um, there's, pardon the pun, but we had to use it somewhere. There's a lot of hot air in this gas debate. And, um, I think we really don't have any detail yet of how they plan to halve those approval times. So let's just call it a value statement rather than a detailed plan at the moment.

That is the goal. The rhetoric from the Dutton opposition is they're aiming to flood the Australian market with gas by really speeding up environmental assessments so you can get your project. If you're a private company, get your project approved in half the time that it would normally take, and make it much easier for developers to build their projects, much easier for investment to flow into those developments. You know, their goal is to to lower the price of gas so people use more of it. That means burn more of it. But, Sam, let's remember, this is an election commitment that both the opposition and the government of the day always make. Um, there's, pardon the pun, but we had to use it somewhere. There's a lot of hot air in this gas debate. And, um, I think we really don't have any detail yet of how they plan to halve those approval times. So let's just call it a value statement rather than a detailed plan at the moment.

But by bringing that additional supply into the market, we put downward pressure on prices. And that is a very significant thing that's not happening now. We will have, uh, in terms of our offering at the next election to the Australian people, a definite plan about how we can reduce prices, not just.

But by bringing that additional supply into the market, we put downward pressure on prices. And that is a very significant thing that's not happening now. We will have, uh, in terms of our offering at the next election to the Australian people, a definite plan about how we can reduce prices, not just.

And I guess, Mike, just to wrap up, do you think, you know, these plans will actually work or is it all too late?

And I guess, Mike, just to wrap up, do you think, you know, these plans will actually work or is it all too late?

Ah, look, that's a great question. Let's let's step you through that. So what's been happening up until now with the Albanese government? They haven't gone so far as to commit to the Peter Dutton option of a hard and fast domestic gas reservation, where they secure a certain proportion of what the gas producers generate each year and just keep it at home. What they're saying is they have these legal mechanisms in place that force the gas producers to direct gas onshore if there's a shortage. So that's the crucial difference. The Albanese government says in the event of a shortage, we'll nab some of your exports that are bound for Japan or whatever and force them to stay at home so we don't run out of gas. The Dutton government is saying, no, that's not good enough for us. We're just going to make the producers keep a bunch of it at home. Now let's break that down. The Dutton plan obviously has some popular appeal. That sounds pretty a pretty good deal. You know, it's our gas in Australia. Why shouldn't a fair, fair whacker that be kept for Australians just, you know, if multinational gas companies are a bit upset about their profits being eaten into, who cares? The Albanese government hasn't gone that far down the populist route, because the government of the day has to actually implement plans. It's a lot easier to say stuff in opposition when you're in government. The legal requirements, how that actually interacts with industry, producing the volume of gas that you actually need, it's it's a minefield to actually execute that plan. Much easier to say, much harder to do. But the upshot is let's cut the waffle. The upshot is that I don't think it's feasible. I don't know if Nick agrees that any Australian government would ever let the like, the Australian population, run out of gas. They might let the price rise like it has been for the past decade, but they would always have legal recourse to to keep some of the gas at home. It just depends on the debate over how you achieve that, and you know how you can actually win support at the ballot box for doing so. But the price will go up, but it will never run short of gas.

Ah, look, that's a great question. Let's let's step you through that. So what's been happening up until now with the Albanese government? They haven't gone so far as to commit to the Peter Dutton option of a hard and fast domestic gas reservation, where they secure a certain proportion of what the gas producers generate each year and just keep it at home. What they're saying is they have these legal mechanisms in place that force the gas producers to direct gas onshore if there's a shortage. So that's the crucial difference. The Albanese government says in the event of a shortage, we'll nab some of your exports that are bound for Japan or whatever and force them to stay at home so we don't run out of gas. The Dutton government is saying, no, that's not good enough for us. We're just going to make the producers keep a bunch of it at home. Now let's break that down. The Dutton plan obviously has some popular appeal. That sounds pretty a pretty good deal. You know, it's our gas in Australia. Why shouldn't a fair, fair whacker that be kept for Australians just, you know, if multinational gas companies are a bit upset about their profits being eaten into, who cares? The Albanese government hasn't gone that far down the populist route, because the government of the day has to actually implement plans. It's a lot easier to say stuff in opposition when you're in government. The legal requirements, how that actually interacts with industry, producing the volume of gas that you actually need, it's it's a minefield to actually execute that plan. Much easier to say, much harder to do. But the upshot is let's cut the waffle. The upshot is that I don't think it's feasible. I don't know if Nick agrees that any Australian government would ever let the like, the Australian population, run out of gas. They might let the price rise like it has been for the past decade, but they would always have legal recourse to to keep some of the gas at home. It just depends on the debate over how you achieve that, and you know how you can actually win support at the ballot box for doing so. But the price will go up, but it will never run short of gas.

Nick. Agree on that one.

Nick. Agree on that one.

I do, I agree, and, um, I guess one final thing to to think about is, um, is the fact that, uh, governments of all persuasions across the country are, um, separately to this latest, uh, debate are increasingly looking at ways to have that, that backstop to ensure that whatever happens, the gas never runs out. State governments and the feds are working on ways that they can kick start the launch of one or more, uh, gas import terminals, uh, in Victoria or New South Wales. That would actually, for the first time, enable giant LNG ships to sail into Victoria and New South Wales and deliver gas into the pipelines here. Uh, obviously, yeah, it's a divisive and controversial, uh, option that they're pursuing there. But I guess such is the, um, such is the scale of the the shortfall and such are the the worries about this impending shortage that, um, this sort of drastic action is, is really on the table.

I do, I agree, and, um, I guess one final thing to to think about is, um, is the fact that, uh, governments of all persuasions across the country are, um, separately to this latest, uh, debate are increasingly looking at ways to have that, that backstop to ensure that whatever happens, the gas never runs out. State governments and the feds are working on ways that they can kick start the launch of one or more, uh, gas import terminals, uh, in Victoria or New South Wales. That would actually, for the first time, enable giant LNG ships to sail into Victoria and New South Wales and deliver gas into the pipelines here. Uh, obviously, yeah, it's a divisive and controversial, uh, option that they're pursuing there. But I guess such is the, um, such is the scale of the the shortfall and such are the the worries about this impending shortage that, um, this sort of drastic action is, is really on the table.

Who would have thought buying gas from potentially Japan or Korea and shipping it down to Australia?

Who would have thought buying gas from potentially Japan or Korea and shipping it down to Australia?

Thank you so much, Mike and Nick for your time.

Thank you so much, Mike and Nick for your time.

Thanks, Sam.

Thanks, Sam.

Thanks, Sam.

Thanks, Sam.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Josh Towers and Julia Carcasole, with technical assistance by Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au for subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Josh Towers and Julia Carcasole, with technical assistance by Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au for subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.