From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday, April 16th. When news surfaced in March that schools across Australia were recording record levels of violence, with a huge number of principals having either suffered physical abuse last year or witnessed it. Education reporter Nicole Purcell wanted to find out more what, if anything, could stop principals from being bitten and teachers from being pushed down stairs by students and turn around the often plummeting academic records and mental health of the students at these schools. Today, Nicole Presell on how two determined principals dramatically altered the culture of a school dubbed only six years ago Australia's worst school, and the trauma they needed to confront in order to do it.

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday, April 16th. When news surfaced in March that schools across Australia were recording record levels of violence, with a huge number of principals having either suffered physical abuse last year or witnessed it. Education reporter Nicole Purcell wanted to find out more what, if anything, could stop principals from being bitten and teachers from being pushed down stairs by students and turn around the often plummeting academic records and mental health of the students at these schools. Today, Nicole Presell on how two determined principals dramatically altered the culture of a school dubbed only six years ago Australia's worst school, and the trauma they needed to confront in order to do it.

So Nicole, first off, can you just tell us a little bit about where Barnsdale Secondary School is located and just a bit about the community and the makeup of the student cohort?

So Nicole, first off, can you just tell us a little bit about where Barnsdale Secondary School is located and just a bit about the community and the makeup of the student cohort?

Sure. So Bairnsdale is a regional school. It's about a 3.5 hour drive out of Melbourne and it's in East Gippsland. East Gippsland has a huge amount of national park. You'll maybe remember there was some devastating fires there a few years ago. Um, Bairnsdale actually became a hub during that fire period, and some of their school rooms and their school kitchen ended up being a spot for the army and firefighters. There's a huge amount of agriculture in the community. So the student cohort, there's about almost 1150 students at the college. Um, it's a huge college as well. So there's a middle school that is maybe like a ten minute walk within the grounds. It's quite a diverse school student cohort. Um, there's about 100 indigenous students. There's an increasing number of students who don't speak English as a first language, and there are varying levels of social disadvantage. People come from as far as like the entrance, which is quite a way away, and Dargo as well.

Sure. So Bairnsdale is a regional school. It's about a 3.5 hour drive out of Melbourne and it's in East Gippsland. East Gippsland has a huge amount of national park. You'll maybe remember there was some devastating fires there a few years ago. Um, Bairnsdale actually became a hub during that fire period, and some of their school rooms and their school kitchen ended up being a spot for the army and firefighters. There's a huge amount of agriculture in the community. So the student cohort, there's about almost 1150 students at the college. Um, it's a huge college as well. So there's a middle school that is maybe like a ten minute walk within the grounds. It's quite a diverse school student cohort. Um, there's about 100 indigenous students. There's an increasing number of students who don't speak English as a first language, and there are varying levels of social disadvantage. People come from as far as like the entrance, which is quite a way away, and Dargo as well.

Okay. And then we get to 2019, and it's fair to say that this community and this school, it had a really sort of low public point because it was described on national television as Australia's worst school. So can you tell us what led to this naming and by what metric was this deemed Australia's worst school?

Okay. And then we get to 2019, and it's fair to say that this community and this school, it had a really sort of low public point because it was described on national television as Australia's worst school. So can you tell us what led to this naming and by what metric was this deemed Australia's worst school?

That was quite a low point for the school. There were a few things that led to that. A Current Affair piece went to air.

That was quite a low point for the school. There were a few things that led to that. A Current Affair piece went to air.

Now to a group of teachers whose lives have changed forever. They've had to leave the job they loved because their students pushed them to breaking point.

Now to a group of teachers whose lives have changed forever. They've had to leave the job they loved because their students pushed them to breaking point.

You are watching your colleagues be destroyed. I had a student push me downstairs and told me off. Nothing was done about that student. When I reported it, I was stalled or he's having a hard time at home. So let's just.

You are watching your colleagues be destroyed. I had a student push me downstairs and told me off. Nothing was done about that student. When I reported it, I was stalled or he's having a hard time at home. So let's just.

I think it being called one of Australia's worst schools is the fact that there were quite a few teachers who had been assaulted, some who had said that they unfortunately had post-traumatic stress disorder. From some of the things that happened at the school while they were teaching. So there was a teacher who said that they were shoulder charged and pushed and ended up with, um, a disability because of that. And I think there's probably more that we don't know about, but they obviously had huge impacts on on teachers who felt unsafe. The school chaplain said that a number of teachers said that they were suicidal from some of the interactions that they had at the school. So on that level, the staffing level was it was a real challenge. Um, on top of that, there were quite a few behavioural issues. Um, it was no secret that the school wasn't performing very well in their ATAR or NAPLAN results. So kind of a perfect storm, really.

I think it being called one of Australia's worst schools is the fact that there were quite a few teachers who had been assaulted, some who had said that they unfortunately had post-traumatic stress disorder. From some of the things that happened at the school while they were teaching. So there was a teacher who said that they were shoulder charged and pushed and ended up with, um, a disability because of that. And I think there's probably more that we don't know about, but they obviously had huge impacts on on teachers who felt unsafe. The school chaplain said that a number of teachers said that they were suicidal from some of the interactions that they had at the school. So on that level, the staffing level was it was a real challenge. Um, on top of that, there were quite a few behavioural issues. Um, it was no secret that the school wasn't performing very well in their ATAR or NAPLAN results. So kind of a perfect storm, really.

Absolutely. I believe that the school's former principal, Trudie Nagle, had said that it was, you know, the most challenging school that she'd ever worked in and that changing a culture is the most difficult thing to do at any school. So obviously this school was facing serious uphill challenges. But I guess, tell us, just how bad were the results and the learning outcomes of the students specifically?

Absolutely. I believe that the school's former principal, Trudie Nagle, had said that it was, you know, the most challenging school that she'd ever worked in and that changing a culture is the most difficult thing to do at any school. So obviously this school was facing serious uphill challenges. But I guess, tell us, just how bad were the results and the learning outcomes of the students specifically?

So there was a Attitudes to School survey, which is a survey that's taken by students at the school. And they found that that was just above the lowest quartile. So students were really disengaged and discouraged because they had low expectations of themselves. And the school, um, which is pretty dire. And that's not that wasn't a one off that had been repeated results of that survey. And so compass data had shown that attendance in individual classes were among the lowest levels in Victoria, and capable students entering year seven actually became failing students by year ten, so it's a pretty dire, um, story. Uh, students had low expectations of themselves and the school. They actually found student attitudes towards the school were the worst in Victoria, and teacher efficacy was in the lowest 10% in the state.

So there was a Attitudes to School survey, which is a survey that's taken by students at the school. And they found that that was just above the lowest quartile. So students were really disengaged and discouraged because they had low expectations of themselves. And the school, um, which is pretty dire. And that's not that wasn't a one off that had been repeated results of that survey. And so compass data had shown that attendance in individual classes were among the lowest levels in Victoria, and capable students entering year seven actually became failing students by year ten, so it's a pretty dire, um, story. Uh, students had low expectations of themselves and the school. They actually found student attitudes towards the school were the worst in Victoria, and teacher efficacy was in the lowest 10% in the state.

And there was actually a real divide, wasn't there as well, between the school and I believe, the wider community. So tell us about that and how I guess this factored into perhaps the problems that the school was experiencing.

And there was actually a real divide, wasn't there as well, between the school and I believe, the wider community. So tell us about that and how I guess this factored into perhaps the problems that the school was experiencing.

So the school had been battling a bad reputation even before the A Current Affair story, and there was just a sense that the school wasn't meeting the needs of the students or the community academically, but also socially. There were quite complex needs. There was, um, a need for counselling, um, extra resources. But, you know, truancy was an issue. Um, and I think because teachers felt that they were having little impact on, um, students results, they started feeling that they We weren't able to be effective teachers and also started to become disengaged in teaching as well. Not in every case. There were still obviously a group of teachers at the school who were very engaged. But, you know, it's a huge school and part of that cohort, um, that was the case, I guess in a community like Bairnsdale, everyone knows each other and a secondary school is such a hub. So it's also you can't really escape from, you know, you run into, um, your teachers at the supermarket or your school principal. Um, so it becomes a very closed community. And yeah, that can also be quite stressful, I think.

So the school had been battling a bad reputation even before the A Current Affair story, and there was just a sense that the school wasn't meeting the needs of the students or the community academically, but also socially. There were quite complex needs. There was, um, a need for counselling, um, extra resources. But, you know, truancy was an issue. Um, and I think because teachers felt that they were having little impact on, um, students results, they started feeling that they We weren't able to be effective teachers and also started to become disengaged in teaching as well. Not in every case. There were still obviously a group of teachers at the school who were very engaged. But, you know, it's a huge school and part of that cohort, um, that was the case, I guess in a community like Bairnsdale, everyone knows each other and a secondary school is such a hub. So it's also you can't really escape from, you know, you run into, um, your teachers at the supermarket or your school principal. Um, so it becomes a very closed community. And yeah, that can also be quite stressful, I think.

Okay. And then there's a dramatic turn, though, in the life of this school and I guess the community, because the school turned a corner and it has become a radically different place, at least according to, to one teacher. So what actually sparked this turnaround?

Okay. And then there's a dramatic turn, though, in the life of this school and I guess the community, because the school turned a corner and it has become a radically different place, at least according to, to one teacher. So what actually sparked this turnaround?

I think that it was, um, a few things. Um, so one of the things was there was a change in leadership. Obviously at the school they had, um, an interim principal in there for a year after that, Trudy Nagle came in and she became the principal until only recently when Tony took over Tony Roberts. But Trudy really saw that there was a need for some significant change. And Tony Roberts, who was actually the seal at the time, a seal is, um, someone who is a regional officer within the Education department and works with schools to really help drive improvement, um, and assess issues and see if they can find solutions. So one of the things that happens, um, at schools or can happen is that when there are big issues, cultural issues, when there um, is something like a public facing assault within a school, which has happened recently in, in Tanit in Victoria, there was um, a stabbing, um, a few years ago outside of um, another school in Melbourne's west. What can happen is schools close shop and they don't let people come in. They don't want people to to kind of know what their dirty laundry is. Um, and sometimes that can create distrust. I understand why it's the case in some sometimes it's important to do that. But, you know, especially in a regional community where everyone's talking anyway, opening up shop, saying, these are our challenges and we want to change this and we want to work with you. So truly, actually, um, set up a few community forums and she invited the community, the school community to come and talk about the issues so that they could look at ways to change it. They brought in a different way for teachers to engage with students. It was a lot more respect between students and teachers, and really trying to engage them in a different kind of level rather than being more punitive. It was, um, developing a respect between teachers and students and some of the students that I spoke to at the school, you know, said that that had actually had a huge, huge impact on them. There was one student who was so lovely. He was in the leadership team in year 12, and he said that he had had a whole host of issues during his schooling life, and he decided now that he wants to become a teacher because one of the teachers at the school made such an impact on him that he wanted to be one of those teachers. He wanted to be one of the positive teachers that he experienced.

I think that it was, um, a few things. Um, so one of the things was there was a change in leadership. Obviously at the school they had, um, an interim principal in there for a year after that, Trudy Nagle came in and she became the principal until only recently when Tony took over Tony Roberts. But Trudy really saw that there was a need for some significant change. And Tony Roberts, who was actually the seal at the time, a seal is, um, someone who is a regional officer within the Education department and works with schools to really help drive improvement, um, and assess issues and see if they can find solutions. So one of the things that happens, um, at schools or can happen is that when there are big issues, cultural issues, when there um, is something like a public facing assault within a school, which has happened recently in, in Tanit in Victoria, there was um, a stabbing, um, a few years ago outside of um, another school in Melbourne's west. What can happen is schools close shop and they don't let people come in. They don't want people to to kind of know what their dirty laundry is. Um, and sometimes that can create distrust. I understand why it's the case in some sometimes it's important to do that. But, you know, especially in a regional community where everyone's talking anyway, opening up shop, saying, these are our challenges and we want to change this and we want to work with you. So truly, actually, um, set up a few community forums and she invited the community, the school community to come and talk about the issues so that they could look at ways to change it. They brought in a different way for teachers to engage with students. It was a lot more respect between students and teachers, and really trying to engage them in a different kind of level rather than being more punitive. It was, um, developing a respect between teachers and students and some of the students that I spoke to at the school, you know, said that that had actually had a huge, huge impact on them. There was one student who was so lovely. He was in the leadership team in year 12, and he said that he had had a whole host of issues during his schooling life, and he decided now that he wants to become a teacher because one of the teachers at the school made such an impact on him that he wanted to be one of those teachers. He wanted to be one of the positive teachers that he experienced.

We'll be right back. And I really wanted to ask you another fascinating thing that I was struck by in your piece was you actually spoke to an educational professional who told you that, you know, you really had to take into account that some of the parents of the students might have themselves had, you know, held some trauma from their own school days. And that's something that needs to be understood, I guess, by perhaps teachers. So can you tell us a bit about that, how that was a part of changing the culture at the school?

We'll be right back. And I really wanted to ask you another fascinating thing that I was struck by in your piece was you actually spoke to an educational professional who told you that, you know, you really had to take into account that some of the parents of the students might have themselves had, you know, held some trauma from their own school days. And that's something that needs to be understood, I guess, by perhaps teachers. So can you tell us a bit about that, how that was a part of changing the culture at the school?

Yeah. I mean, so I spoke to, um, The Australian Catholic University associate professor Paul Kitson, and he is involved in an annual survey that's done of principals across Australia. It's called um, the ACU um Occupational Health and Safety of Wellbeing survey of Australian principals. Um, it shows that every year, year on year, it's getting harder and harder to be a school leader. And, um, parents are often or parents or guardians can often be the main culprits when it comes to cyber bullying, when it comes to threats of abuse. Um, and, um, yeah. And, and some of that does stem from their own past trauma from being at school. Um, also, some of it stems from, you know, I think there's an immediacy, um, that parents, um, these days expect. Um, they expect things to change straight away. They expect teachers and principals to be at their beck and call, which is just not not the case. Or, you know, I mean, when serious issues happen then then obviously there are there are protocols that that are in play. But, um, yeah, I think that we've seen across the country an increase in parents and guardians, um, being more violent or aggressive towards schools and school leaders. Um, and there's a few experts who say that the way to get around this is to promote dialogue between parents, to make it a safe and open community space. There's parents, Victoria President Gail McCarty. She's always saying that she thinks that schools should have family engagement officers to try and counter some of those issues. But yeah, I think that being mindful, um, of, of those kinds of traumas can be useful.

Yeah. I mean, so I spoke to, um, The Australian Catholic University associate professor Paul Kitson, and he is involved in an annual survey that's done of principals across Australia. It's called um, the ACU um Occupational Health and Safety of Wellbeing survey of Australian principals. Um, it shows that every year, year on year, it's getting harder and harder to be a school leader. And, um, parents are often or parents or guardians can often be the main culprits when it comes to cyber bullying, when it comes to threats of abuse. Um, and, um, yeah. And, and some of that does stem from their own past trauma from being at school. Um, also, some of it stems from, you know, I think there's an immediacy, um, that parents, um, these days expect. Um, they expect things to change straight away. They expect teachers and principals to be at their beck and call, which is just not not the case. Or, you know, I mean, when serious issues happen then then obviously there are there are protocols that that are in play. But, um, yeah, I think that we've seen across the country an increase in parents and guardians, um, being more violent or aggressive towards schools and school leaders. Um, and there's a few experts who say that the way to get around this is to promote dialogue between parents, to make it a safe and open community space. There's parents, Victoria President Gail McCarty. She's always saying that she thinks that schools should have family engagement officers to try and counter some of those issues. But yeah, I think that being mindful, um, of, of those kinds of traumas can be useful.

But I also wanted to ask you about the fact that the Victorian Department of Education, because it intervened with intensive school support. So how did this program actually help the school?

But I also wanted to ask you about the fact that the Victorian Department of Education, because it intervened with intensive school support. So how did this program actually help the school?

So intensive school support is something that's offered by the Department of Education. It helps schools kind of plan strategy and turns plans into actions, so it gives them access to experts in things like transformative leadership. And, um, connects to school with high performing colleges across the state so that they can kind of partner and see what's working in other areas in other schools that are really high performing. Um, so not every school can go on this program. Um, there's capacity for about 225 schools to, to get support, um, up until 2027. And they have a range of programs specifically for indigenous students, um, indigenous boys, um, and, um, those, you know, those programs are designed to increase attendance. So if students get a certain amount of days coming to school in a row, then they end up with rewards like being able to go on a school camp. Um, you know, there's also direct access to, um, Medical appointments, extra support. So yeah, I think that creating a different, a changing culture in a school is is a long it's a long road ahead for them still. But um, they've come so far. So it's really something to be congratulated.

So intensive school support is something that's offered by the Department of Education. It helps schools kind of plan strategy and turns plans into actions, so it gives them access to experts in things like transformative leadership. And, um, connects to school with high performing colleges across the state so that they can kind of partner and see what's working in other areas in other schools that are really high performing. Um, so not every school can go on this program. Um, there's capacity for about 225 schools to, to get support, um, up until 2027. And they have a range of programs specifically for indigenous students, um, indigenous boys, um, and, um, those, you know, those programs are designed to increase attendance. So if students get a certain amount of days coming to school in a row, then they end up with rewards like being able to go on a school camp. Um, you know, there's also direct access to, um, Medical appointments, extra support. So yeah, I think that creating a different, a changing culture in a school is is a long it's a long road ahead for them still. But um, they've come so far. So it's really something to be congratulated.

And I guess. How important has the change in culture been in the school's comeback?

And I guess. How important has the change in culture been in the school's comeback?

I think they've been really important. Um, you know, there's no there's no doubt that the school has a long way to go. Still, you know, they're really still working towards getting higher ATAR scores, better NAPLAN results. Um, but the change in culture is is such a good starting point and it's such a difficult thing to achieve. Um, you know, I think that, um, teachers really feeling like they are having an impact on, on student learning, um, and also students feeling happy and engaged to be at school, like attendance increasing. Um, you know, I was walking around the school grounds with, with um, with Tony Roberts, who is now the principal and has continued to make a huge transformation of the school. He's actually been involved, um, almost from the beginning of this transformation because he was a school education improvement leader, which is called a Seal. Um, and seals are they often have a few schools that they look over in a regional area. Um, and so he was really driving a lot of this improvement with Trudy from the get go. Um, he obviously felt so strongly about the school that he is now the principal. Um, and he is just you can tell how much he's respected by both teachers and students because, um, you know, there is not one, one teacher or one student. When I was at the school walking around, he was showing me around who did not have a smile on his face or their face when they saw him. He just, um, he has such a good rapport and and, you know, I think it's a mutual respect. He really has a deep feeling of respect for for students, he he says. If students come to the school, we have a responsibility. If they turn up, we have a responsibility to them to do the best that we can do so that they can get a good education. And I think that's beautiful.

I think they've been really important. Um, you know, there's no there's no doubt that the school has a long way to go. Still, you know, they're really still working towards getting higher ATAR scores, better NAPLAN results. Um, but the change in culture is is such a good starting point and it's such a difficult thing to achieve. Um, you know, I think that, um, teachers really feeling like they are having an impact on, on student learning, um, and also students feeling happy and engaged to be at school, like attendance increasing. Um, you know, I was walking around the school grounds with, with um, with Tony Roberts, who is now the principal and has continued to make a huge transformation of the school. He's actually been involved, um, almost from the beginning of this transformation because he was a school education improvement leader, which is called a Seal. Um, and seals are they often have a few schools that they look over in a regional area. Um, and so he was really driving a lot of this improvement with Trudy from the get go. Um, he obviously felt so strongly about the school that he is now the principal. Um, and he is just you can tell how much he's respected by both teachers and students because, um, you know, there is not one, one teacher or one student. When I was at the school walking around, he was showing me around who did not have a smile on his face or their face when they saw him. He just, um, he has such a good rapport and and, you know, I think it's a mutual respect. He really has a deep feeling of respect for for students, he he says. If students come to the school, we have a responsibility. If they turn up, we have a responsibility to them to do the best that we can do so that they can get a good education. And I think that's beautiful.

I mean, that all sounds incredible. And yeah, you mentioned that the school is still working, you know, on achieving higher ATAR and NAPLAN scores, but nevertheless, there has been some pretty impressive improvement in the school in terms of, you know, results. So tell us a bit about those I guess.

I mean, that all sounds incredible. And yeah, you mentioned that the school is still working, you know, on achieving higher ATAR and NAPLAN scores, but nevertheless, there has been some pretty impressive improvement in the school in terms of, you know, results. So tell us a bit about those I guess.

Yeah. So Bairnsdale is um, it's almost doubled the number of year 12 students accepted into university between 2019 and 2024, um, from 31 to 54. And um, the number of year 12 students accepted into apprenticeships almost doubled from 29 to 58. So, um, I mean, I think that's great. They're really, um, really focused on pathways and, and getting that right pathway for the students. After that, um, a Current Affair piece went to air, you know, so I went to the school, um, a few weeks ago and, um, and spoke to a whole lot of students, students in, um, the middle years as well as, um, you know, school leaders in year 12. And they said they remember seeing that a current affairs piece, some of them hadn't started the school yet, and they thought, I don't know whether I want to go to this school. You know, this is, um, it's is it safe? Like, it's a bit worrying. It doesn't have a good reputation. And now they they look back on on what they thought previously and on that current affairs piece, and they just think it's laughable because there has been such a huge shift in the culture, in their relationship with teachers. You know, they would be recommending people to come to the school. They, um, actually have students who who kind of want to come to the school, um, who wouldn't previously have wanted to. So, yeah, I think it's, um, on a student level, it's, um, it's quite empowering, I guess.

Yeah. So Bairnsdale is um, it's almost doubled the number of year 12 students accepted into university between 2019 and 2024, um, from 31 to 54. And um, the number of year 12 students accepted into apprenticeships almost doubled from 29 to 58. So, um, I mean, I think that's great. They're really, um, really focused on pathways and, and getting that right pathway for the students. After that, um, a Current Affair piece went to air, you know, so I went to the school, um, a few weeks ago and, um, and spoke to a whole lot of students, students in, um, the middle years as well as, um, you know, school leaders in year 12. And they said they remember seeing that a current affairs piece, some of them hadn't started the school yet, and they thought, I don't know whether I want to go to this school. You know, this is, um, it's is it safe? Like, it's a bit worrying. It doesn't have a good reputation. And now they they look back on on what they thought previously and on that current affairs piece, and they just think it's laughable because there has been such a huge shift in the culture, in their relationship with teachers. You know, they would be recommending people to come to the school. They, um, actually have students who who kind of want to come to the school, um, who wouldn't previously have wanted to. So, yeah, I think it's, um, on a student level, it's, um, it's quite empowering, I guess.

I mean, that's absolutely incredible. And it's just a lovely story to cover. So thank you so much, Nicole, for your time.

I mean, that's absolutely incredible. And it's just a lovely story to cover. So thank you so much, Nicole, for your time.

No worries. Thank you so much for having me.

No worries. Thank you so much for having me.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. And to stay up to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. And to stay up to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.