From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday, February 5th. Okay, so first off, a personal admission to all the parents and carers out there who've ever wondered if they've let the kids in their life watched too many hours of screen time? I may or may not have said to my three kids, only half jokingly, over the school holidays, Netflix is your parent now. I mean, it's hard to keep your kids off screens, right? Especially when you've got so many demands on your time. But what impact does screen time have on really young kids, especially those who are five and under? Today, technology editor David Swan on where to draw the line so we can keep our kids safe, and why the impact on young kids has been perhaps left out of the national conversation. So, David, you have a ten month old son, and I really want you to tell me, was he actually the reason that you wrote your latest piece about how much screen time is too much for little kids? I mean, is this something that you are already worried about?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday, February 5th. Okay, so first off, a personal admission to all the parents and carers out there who've ever wondered if they've let the kids in their life watched too many hours of screen time? I may or may not have said to my three kids, only half jokingly, over the school holidays, Netflix is your parent now. I mean, it's hard to keep your kids off screens, right? Especially when you've got so many demands on your time. But what impact does screen time have on really young kids, especially those who are five and under? Today, technology editor David Swan on where to draw the line so we can keep our kids safe, and why the impact on young kids has been perhaps left out of the national conversation. So, David, you have a ten month old son, and I really want you to tell me, was he actually the reason that you wrote your latest piece about how much screen time is too much for little kids? I mean, is this something that you are already worried about?

Yeah. He was. I am about to go on leave for four months to go into full time dad mode, which I'm very excited about, but a little intimidated by it as well. I think, um, you know, I hang out with him a lot, but it's a different prospect of looking after him full time for for four months, obviously, and all the responsibilities that come with that and something that me and my wife have discussed is when do we start introducing screen time? And I think that's a conversation that obviously a lot of parents would have. And the conclusion that we've sort of come to is that we'd be looking at bringing in screen time a little bit from, uh, from once he's one onwards, as you said, he's ten months. So in a couple of couple of months, maybe introducing a little bit of Bluey, a little bit of screen time.

Yeah. He was. I am about to go on leave for four months to go into full time dad mode, which I'm very excited about, but a little intimidated by it as well. I think, um, you know, I hang out with him a lot, but it's a different prospect of looking after him full time for for four months, obviously, and all the responsibilities that come with that and something that me and my wife have discussed is when do we start introducing screen time? And I think that's a conversation that obviously a lot of parents would have. And the conclusion that we've sort of come to is that we'd be looking at bringing in screen time a little bit from, uh, from once he's one onwards, as you said, he's ten months. So in a couple of couple of months, maybe introducing a little bit of Bluey, a little bit of screen time.

Mom. Whiskey's gone. What? She yelled at uncle Red. She said the wedding's off. Then she drove away really fast.

Mom. Whiskey's gone. What? She yelled at uncle Red. She said the wedding's off. Then she drove away really fast.

Oh, boy.

Oh, boy.

And I think for me, that just feels like it's going to take a little bit of the load off. When those days can can feel really long. Obviously, they're magical and wonderful, but days with with little ones can sometimes feel long. So I think maybe you need options where you can have them. So, um, yeah, I thought, I have no idea. I mean, people have asked me, friends and colleagues, assuming that I might be the expert when it comes to screen time and kids and teenagers, but I think it's been quite underreported just for for babies, toddlers and little ones. The impact of screen time and technology.

And I think for me, that just feels like it's going to take a little bit of the load off. When those days can can feel really long. Obviously, they're magical and wonderful, but days with with little ones can sometimes feel long. So I think maybe you need options where you can have them. So, um, yeah, I thought, I have no idea. I mean, people have asked me, friends and colleagues, assuming that I might be the expert when it comes to screen time and kids and teenagers, but I think it's been quite underreported just for for babies, toddlers and little ones. The impact of screen time and technology.

Okay, so let's get down to what we all want to know, because I know I have long felt guilty, actually, for years that I've not pinned down. You know how much screen time is too much. And, you know, maybe I've even damaged my kids by letting them have too much. So you've actually got the facts. How many episodes of Bluey are too many?

Okay, so let's get down to what we all want to know, because I know I have long felt guilty, actually, for years that I've not pinned down. You know how much screen time is too much. And, you know, maybe I've even damaged my kids by letting them have too much. So you've actually got the facts. How many episodes of Bluey are too many?

I do have the facts, and I'm always loath to give spoilers away for my stories because I want people to go and read them, obviously. But I can say that for toddlers between the ages of two and five, I spoke to Doctor Daniel Godziszewski, better known as Doctor Golly, who's a pediatrician. The average recommended amount of Bluey is six episodes per day. They go for about ten minutes each, so about an hour of screen time is is okay.

I do have the facts, and I'm always loath to give spoilers away for my stories because I want people to go and read them, obviously. But I can say that for toddlers between the ages of two and five, I spoke to Doctor Daniel Godziszewski, better known as Doctor Golly, who's a pediatrician. The average recommended amount of Bluey is six episodes per day. They go for about ten minutes each, so about an hour of screen time is is okay.

What about the sign?

What about the sign?

Leave it in, Bluey. The wedding's off.

Leave it in, Bluey. The wedding's off.

What? But we're flower girls.

What? But we're flower girls.

I'd say to, like, just for anyone that goes over that. I wouldn't want anyone to. To feel guilty about that. For example, you know, some some weeks we might go over the recommended amount of drinks for the Surgeon General recommends, for recommends, for example. But obviously I'm not a health expert or a doctor. But I would say I think my philosophy at least, is people do what they need to do to get by. And if that means a couple of extra episodes of Bluey, for example, I don't think it's going to be the end of the world, for example. So I just wouldn't want to shame anyone or anyone to feel guilty for going over the limit. Because as a dad, already I'm learning. Sometimes you just need to do what you need to do to get by.

I'd say to, like, just for anyone that goes over that. I wouldn't want anyone to. To feel guilty about that. For example, you know, some some weeks we might go over the recommended amount of drinks for the Surgeon General recommends, for recommends, for example. But obviously I'm not a health expert or a doctor. But I would say I think my philosophy at least, is people do what they need to do to get by. And if that means a couple of extra episodes of Bluey, for example, I don't think it's going to be the end of the world, for example. So I just wouldn't want to shame anyone or anyone to feel guilty for going over the limit. Because as a dad, already I'm learning. Sometimes you just need to do what you need to do to get by.

I mean, you really do. I'm very happy to hear that message of non shaming. And I'm also glad you weren't there for the first ten years of my parenting. But what happens once this screen time is actually exceeded? Because according to recent research, the vast majority of Australian kids are having way more screen time daily than the experts recommend. Right?

I mean, you really do. I'm very happy to hear that message of non shaming. And I'm also glad you weren't there for the first ten years of my parenting. But what happens once this screen time is actually exceeded? Because according to recent research, the vast majority of Australian kids are having way more screen time daily than the experts recommend. Right?

Yeah. That's right. So I got some research from the Australian Institute of Family Studies that found, um, less than a quarter of preschoolers and just 15% of 5 to 12 year olds Actually meet that screen time guidelines. So the vast, vast majority of of kids are getting more screen time than that sort of one hour. That is recommended at least for 2 to 5 year olds. The research that was conducted over the past couple of years has found negative outcomes tied to excessive screen time. I know kids who are toddlers, and for example, their default is to say bluey bluey, and to have Bluey be put on rather than wanting to hang out with their friends their age, for example. So I think just often it can be a helpful crutch for parents. But there are that does come at a cost, where then for kids, they can be less interested in the world around them and less interested in social interactions, for example, or going outside and playing. And then therefore those health impacts can be weight gain, can be, um, you know, psychological and social as well. So, um, yeah, not to freak it out, but I think some of those outcomes, um, can can be real and should be at least, um, thought about.

Yeah. That's right. So I got some research from the Australian Institute of Family Studies that found, um, less than a quarter of preschoolers and just 15% of 5 to 12 year olds Actually meet that screen time guidelines. So the vast, vast majority of of kids are getting more screen time than that sort of one hour. That is recommended at least for 2 to 5 year olds. The research that was conducted over the past couple of years has found negative outcomes tied to excessive screen time. I know kids who are toddlers, and for example, their default is to say bluey bluey, and to have Bluey be put on rather than wanting to hang out with their friends their age, for example. So I think just often it can be a helpful crutch for parents. But there are that does come at a cost, where then for kids, they can be less interested in the world around them and less interested in social interactions, for example, or going outside and playing. And then therefore those health impacts can be weight gain, can be, um, you know, psychological and social as well. So, um, yeah, not to freak it out, but I think some of those outcomes, um, can can be real and should be at least, um, thought about.

And it's so important to me and new, I think that your piece was really focusing on the impact of kids who are five and under, because we do talk a lot about teenagers and their use of social media and the impact this has on them. So do you think the under fives are a bit of a forgotten group in this space? Like our parents with little kids telling you that they've been feeling in the dark about what they should be doing with the kids that age.

And it's so important to me and new, I think that your piece was really focusing on the impact of kids who are five and under, because we do talk a lot about teenagers and their use of social media and the impact this has on them. So do you think the under fives are a bit of a forgotten group in this space? Like our parents with little kids telling you that they've been feeling in the dark about what they should be doing with the kids that age.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the debate over the social media ban for young people over the past year or so has really focused on that sort of teenage, um, age range where we've been talking about 13 year olds, 15 year olds, 18 year olds. What's the impact of social media? Young kids get left out of the conversation, and they haven't really been talked about in the same way. And yet these are real things to think about. You know, parents using social media to to put photos of their kids up, for example, when they're babies or young people. It's like, what about the impact of of privacy on a newborn, for example. It's something that gets talked about a little bit on an ad hoc sense, but we haven't collectively had that conversation like we have had with teenagers in social media and teenagers and smartphones, for example, because parents just often feel in the dark with this stuff, like a lot of things.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the debate over the social media ban for young people over the past year or so has really focused on that sort of teenage, um, age range where we've been talking about 13 year olds, 15 year olds, 18 year olds. What's the impact of social media? Young kids get left out of the conversation, and they haven't really been talked about in the same way. And yet these are real things to think about. You know, parents using social media to to put photos of their kids up, for example, when they're babies or young people. It's like, what about the impact of of privacy on a newborn, for example. It's something that gets talked about a little bit on an ad hoc sense, but we haven't collectively had that conversation like we have had with teenagers in social media and teenagers and smartphones, for example, because parents just often feel in the dark with this stuff, like a lot of things.

And you spoke to an expert who said that, you know, with regards to that point about sharing adorable baby photos on social media, that actually that can make children more vulnerable to identity theft or privacy breaches. So is that an issue even for little kids? Like, how does that play out?

And you spoke to an expert who said that, you know, with regards to that point about sharing adorable baby photos on social media, that actually that can make children more vulnerable to identity theft or privacy breaches. So is that an issue even for little kids? Like, how does that play out?

Yeah, totally. And that was sort of, um, a bit of a worrying aspect of the conversation, I guess, is I think and this is where I sort of came into it as a new dad was I knew that I didn't want to be blasting out photos of my newborn onto my public profile. And then, for example, you know, if I get in a fight with a billionaire, as I did a couple of weeks ago, as I talked about on this podcast previously, or if anyone has a beef with me, I don't want them then seeing a photo of my baby and then linking that to who I am. And it just it opens up a whole can of worms. So I used an app as a new dad called Tinybeans, which lets you every day share photos and videos of your baby with just people you've chosen. So I've got about 10 or 15 people. It's close family members and friends, and then they can check every day if they want to and see photos of a newborn, rather than me going to Instagram and posting to thousands of followers or to the public. And when I interviewed the CEO of Tinybeans, she was saying that one of the aspects of the app is just the aspect of privacy and security. And so you're not showing the world where your baby lives, what they look like, or this sort of stuff. And I think everyone has a right to privacy. And if you're a newborn or a toddler, for example, you don't get a say in your photo being blasted out there. So I just I like the idea of keeping things private until they're old enough to have a say about where their photos and their digital identity goes.

Yeah, totally. And that was sort of, um, a bit of a worrying aspect of the conversation, I guess, is I think and this is where I sort of came into it as a new dad was I knew that I didn't want to be blasting out photos of my newborn onto my public profile. And then, for example, you know, if I get in a fight with a billionaire, as I did a couple of weeks ago, as I talked about on this podcast previously, or if anyone has a beef with me, I don't want them then seeing a photo of my baby and then linking that to who I am. And it just it opens up a whole can of worms. So I used an app as a new dad called Tinybeans, which lets you every day share photos and videos of your baby with just people you've chosen. So I've got about 10 or 15 people. It's close family members and friends, and then they can check every day if they want to and see photos of a newborn, rather than me going to Instagram and posting to thousands of followers or to the public. And when I interviewed the CEO of Tinybeans, she was saying that one of the aspects of the app is just the aspect of privacy and security. And so you're not showing the world where your baby lives, what they look like, or this sort of stuff. And I think everyone has a right to privacy. And if you're a newborn or a toddler, for example, you don't get a say in your photo being blasted out there. So I just I like the idea of keeping things private until they're old enough to have a say about where their photos and their digital identity goes.

We'll be right back. Okay, so, David, I really want to get into what our government has been trying to do in this space because really, it has actually been something of a world leader. At the end of last year, the government said it would bring in legislation banning social media for teenagers under 16. It's done that. It's passed that bill. So tell us what actually prompted that ban and how has this become such a massive issue?

We'll be right back. Okay, so, David, I really want to get into what our government has been trying to do in this space because really, it has actually been something of a world leader. At the end of last year, the government said it would bring in legislation banning social media for teenagers under 16. It's done that. It's passed that bill. So tell us what actually prompted that ban and how has this become such a massive issue?

It was interesting for me. It felt a bit like 20 years too late. It's like Facebook was invented 20 years ago. And then suddenly last year, it became a really high intensity debate over the health impacts of social media on young people.

It was interesting for me. It felt a bit like 20 years too late. It's like Facebook was invented 20 years ago. And then suddenly last year, it became a really high intensity debate over the health impacts of social media on young people.

After the Senate passed historic world first laws banning children from social media under 16.

After the Senate passed historic world first laws banning children from social media under 16.

The days of scrolling social media are numbered. Legislation to ban children from Snapchat, TikTok, Facebook, Reddit, Instagram and media.

The days of scrolling social media are numbered. Legislation to ban children from Snapchat, TikTok, Facebook, Reddit, Instagram and media.

Platforms to face fines of up to $50 million if they don't comply. X owner Elon Musk.

Platforms to face fines of up to $50 million if they don't comply. X owner Elon Musk.

We've started talking about it in the same sentence as fast food as cigarettes, for example. It's just funny to me that it's taken 20 years to get to this point where we're like, oh, wait a second, maybe this thing has negative impacts on young people when we've been grappling with that for the last 20 years. So very fascinating to me that it all came to a head at once last year. But you're right, in terms of Australia has literally been world leading in this regard. Um, this hasn't been successfully implemented anywhere tonight.

We've started talking about it in the same sentence as fast food as cigarettes, for example. It's just funny to me that it's taken 20 years to get to this point where we're like, oh, wait a second, maybe this thing has negative impacts on young people when we've been grappling with that for the last 20 years. So very fascinating to me that it all came to a head at once last year. But you're right, in terms of Australia has literally been world leading in this regard. Um, this hasn't been successfully implemented anywhere tonight.

Australia taking an unprecedented step, becoming the first country in the world to ban the use of social.

Australia taking an unprecedented step, becoming the first country in the world to ban the use of social.

Media to that fascinating development in Australia after its Senate approved the world's strictest laws. The ban, which will not.

Media to that fascinating development in Australia after its Senate approved the world's strictest laws. The ban, which will not.

My prediction is that other countries will likely follow suit. I think, um, this will be enacted by the end of this year. So we'll have a clearer idea, you know, in about 12 months time if this is working or not. But I think, you know, it's been critiqued a lot, but I think good on them for trying something. The impact is real when it comes to teenagers and young people. Um, there are positives and negatives, obviously, but I think a lot of those negative impacts are pretty clear on on teenagers in particular, you know, smartphone addictions, mental health issues related to, you know, cyberbullying and things like that. So I think a lot of these things are pretty clear. But we'll have a clearer idea of if this this ban works or not, um, in about 12 months time.

My prediction is that other countries will likely follow suit. I think, um, this will be enacted by the end of this year. So we'll have a clearer idea, you know, in about 12 months time if this is working or not. But I think, you know, it's been critiqued a lot, but I think good on them for trying something. The impact is real when it comes to teenagers and young people. Um, there are positives and negatives, obviously, but I think a lot of those negative impacts are pretty clear on on teenagers in particular, you know, smartphone addictions, mental health issues related to, you know, cyberbullying and things like that. So I think a lot of these things are pretty clear. But we'll have a clearer idea of if this this ban works or not, um, in about 12 months time.

Because the ban actually won't come into place until what? All the details are nutted out. So can you briefly tell us, I guess, how much is still left to do? Like how many obstacles are there before this ban is actually enacted?

Because the ban actually won't come into place until what? All the details are nutted out. So can you briefly tell us, I guess, how much is still left to do? Like how many obstacles are there before this ban is actually enacted?

A lot is still left to do. The responsibility will lie with the Esafety Commissioner. There are lots of different opinions on how it will be implemented on tech companies themselves have a particular wish compared to parents and others of you know, what's the easiest way to do this? Are there workarounds and will kids find a way to to get around it, for example. But they have 12 months and like the Esafety commissioner has said, we're not aiming for perfection here. There likely will be a way for kids to really get around it if they if they use a VPN or if they try. But let's have a crack. And if it maybe, you know, helps 10% helps 50%, then it's like awesome.

A lot is still left to do. The responsibility will lie with the Esafety Commissioner. There are lots of different opinions on how it will be implemented on tech companies themselves have a particular wish compared to parents and others of you know, what's the easiest way to do this? Are there workarounds and will kids find a way to to get around it, for example. But they have 12 months and like the Esafety commissioner has said, we're not aiming for perfection here. There likely will be a way for kids to really get around it if they if they use a VPN or if they try. But let's have a crack. And if it maybe, you know, helps 10% helps 50%, then it's like awesome.

Okay, so we're still a year out, at least from when this social media ban for under 16 is going to come into effect. But I think another aspect in your piece that is so important is that you spoke to a pediatrician who has really advocated that parents shouldn't actually demonize technology, right? You know, like screens and technology, they can actually be beneficial to kids if they're used in a particular way. So can you tell me about that? Because I think that would be very reassuring. Maybe for parents.

Okay, so we're still a year out, at least from when this social media ban for under 16 is going to come into effect. But I think another aspect in your piece that is so important is that you spoke to a pediatrician who has really advocated that parents shouldn't actually demonize technology, right? You know, like screens and technology, they can actually be beneficial to kids if they're used in a particular way. So can you tell me about that? Because I think that would be very reassuring. Maybe for parents.

Yeah, absolutely. That was, um, Doctor Ghaly, his message around moderation, where I think it would be easy to demonize, um, tech for kids and say, let's ban all screens. Um, but he says, look, you know, things like FaceTime, for example. Um, I know that my son, for example, his grandparents live in Sydney. And so for him to be able to FaceTime them, if he didn't have that, then he would see them every few months and it would be, um, pretty rare. Whereas he gets to talk to them every couple of days. And if we're black and white about it and saying no screens at all, he wouldn't get to talk to them. So I think, you know, for my son, it's been been incredibly important.

Yeah, absolutely. That was, um, Doctor Ghaly, his message around moderation, where I think it would be easy to demonize, um, tech for kids and say, let's ban all screens. Um, but he says, look, you know, things like FaceTime, for example. Um, I know that my son, for example, his grandparents live in Sydney. And so for him to be able to FaceTime them, if he didn't have that, then he would see them every few months and it would be, um, pretty rare. Whereas he gets to talk to them every couple of days. And if we're black and white about it and saying no screens at all, he wouldn't get to talk to them. So I think, you know, for my son, it's been been incredibly important.

And so, David, on that point, do you actually think that the government's social media ban will achieve this balance of, you know, preserving the benefits of social media while limiting its dangers?

And so, David, on that point, do you actually think that the government's social media ban will achieve this balance of, you know, preserving the benefits of social media while limiting its dangers?

I hope so. I'm an optimist in general, but I'm optimistic here specifically to I think what this has done is it's at the very minimum, kicked off a very productive conversation Around pros and cons of social media. As I said, I think it's a conversation we should have had 20 years ago. What I'd like to see with the conversation around social media and young people is more talk of the positives, too. I know there are underrepresented kids who you know might be LGBTQ. Plus they might be racially diverse, for example. And often kids can find their communities online. Um, they might not have people that look like them or at school or in their class, so maybe they find their tribe online. So I'd like to see more of the conversation focused around some of the positives of social media for young people to I think that nuance sometimes gets lost. So more of that would be good, but we have 12 months to to still sort it out and see what happens. Yeah. So it'll be very much. Watch this space I know I will be.

I hope so. I'm an optimist in general, but I'm optimistic here specifically to I think what this has done is it's at the very minimum, kicked off a very productive conversation Around pros and cons of social media. As I said, I think it's a conversation we should have had 20 years ago. What I'd like to see with the conversation around social media and young people is more talk of the positives, too. I know there are underrepresented kids who you know might be LGBTQ. Plus they might be racially diverse, for example. And often kids can find their communities online. Um, they might not have people that look like them or at school or in their class, so maybe they find their tribe online. So I'd like to see more of the conversation focused around some of the positives of social media for young people to I think that nuance sometimes gets lost. So more of that would be good, but we have 12 months to to still sort it out and see what happens. Yeah. So it'll be very much. Watch this space I know I will be.

Well, I think I speak for a lot of parents when I say, thank you so much for getting some actual answers in this space. You know, it can be so be so stressful. So thank you so much David, for your time.

Well, I think I speak for a lot of parents when I say, thank you so much for getting some actual answers in this space. You know, it can be so be so stressful. So thank you so much David, for your time.

No worries. I've loved being on. I always enjoy the chat, so thanks for having me.

No worries. I've loved being on. I always enjoy the chat, so thanks for having me.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism. Subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.