From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Thursday, June 6th. When far right populist turned TV presenter Nigel Farage made the bombshell announcement on Monday that he'd be vying for a seat in the British parliament in the upcoming election, the media had a field day. Hadn't Farage, one of the architects of Brexit, announced just weeks before that he wouldn't be running? And this, after a total seven previous tilts at a seat in the House of Commons over the last 30 years, all unsuccessful. And this was before Farage was splattered with a milkshake thrown by a protester on his first day of campaigning. Today, international and political editor Peter Hartcher on why Nigel Farage, though on the fringe of politics, still poses a threat to British society and the rise of the far right across the globe. So Peter, Nigel Farage announced on Monday that he's going to be throwing his hat into the ring in the UK's general election on July 4th. So let's just start with who is Nigel Farage and why was this announcement such a big deal?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Thursday, June 6th. When far right populist turned TV presenter Nigel Farage made the bombshell announcement on Monday that he'd be vying for a seat in the British parliament in the upcoming election, the media had a field day. Hadn't Farage, one of the architects of Brexit, announced just weeks before that he wouldn't be running? And this, after a total seven previous tilts at a seat in the House of Commons over the last 30 years, all unsuccessful. And this was before Farage was splattered with a milkshake thrown by a protester on his first day of campaigning. Today, international and political editor Peter Hartcher on why Nigel Farage, though on the fringe of politics, still poses a threat to British society and the rise of the far right across the globe. So Peter, Nigel Farage announced on Monday that he's going to be throwing his hat into the ring in the UK's general election on July 4th. So let's just start with who is Nigel Farage and why was this announcement such a big deal?

Well, Nigel Farage said he was entering the election because the election campaign was the most boring he'd ever seen and Nigel is already livening it up. And that's the kind of character Nigel is. Even the way he announced that he was coming into the he decided to change his mind, says, well, guess what, I am going to run. But instead of the traditional politicians maneuver of of trying to weasel his way out of a change of position, he said, I've changed my mind.

Well, Nigel Farage said he was entering the election because the election campaign was the most boring he'd ever seen and Nigel is already livening it up. And that's the kind of character Nigel is. Even the way he announced that he was coming into the he decided to change his mind, says, well, guess what, I am going to run. But instead of the traditional politicians maneuver of of trying to weasel his way out of a change of position, he said, I've changed my mind.

So I have decided. I've changed my mind. It's allowed, you know, it's not always, as.

So I have decided. I've changed my mind. It's allowed, you know, it's not always, as.

Nigel Farage famously was, the leader of the populist movement to take Britain out of the EU. The Brexit movement.

Nigel Farage famously was, the leader of the populist movement to take Britain out of the EU. The Brexit movement.

Dare to dream that the dawn is breaking on an independent United Kingdom.

Dare to dream that the dawn is breaking on an independent United Kingdom.

He was the leader and figurehead and agitator in favor of that.

He was the leader and figurehead and agitator in favor of that.

Brexit actually is a victory of ordinary people against the establishment. It's a victory for people.

Brexit actually is a victory of ordinary people against the establishment. It's a victory for people.

But before that, he'd been a member of the European Parliament, a British delegate to the European Parliament for more than 20 years. He's been trying to get into the British Parliament for 30 years. She's been running for election after election and never got a seat in the British Parliament. And the reason is he's pretty far to the right.

But before that, he'd been a member of the European Parliament, a British delegate to the European Parliament for more than 20 years. He's been trying to get into the British Parliament for 30 years. She's been running for election after election and never got a seat in the British Parliament. And the reason is he's pretty far to the right.

Nigel Farage, the leader of reform UK, has had a drink thrown in his face while out on the campaign trail today. A McDonald's milkshake was thrown at him.

Nigel Farage, the leader of reform UK, has had a drink thrown in his face while out on the campaign trail today. A McDonald's milkshake was thrown at him.

His big shtick is anti-immigration. This is his big programme at heart. The Brexit movement that he led was a movement against migration. It was a movement to cut the flow of people from Europe into Britain. It capitalized on a lot of public discontent with that flow of people.

His big shtick is anti-immigration. This is his big programme at heart. The Brexit movement that he led was a movement against migration. It was a movement to cut the flow of people from Europe into Britain. It capitalized on a lot of public discontent with that flow of people.

I've got no confidence they'll reduce the numbers coming in either. And you know the problem. These people, unlike you in Clacton, they're not genuinely patriotic people. They don't believe in Britain and the British.

I've got no confidence they'll reduce the numbers coming in either. And you know the problem. These people, unlike you in Clacton, they're not genuinely patriotic people. They don't believe in Britain and the British.

And there was a lot of genuine underlying concern in Britain about the immigration program and that that has been assuaged. But it's still a real phenomenon. And he's hoping that it's real enough that he can come into Parliament now and win a seat based on that.

And there was a lot of genuine underlying concern in Britain about the immigration program and that that has been assuaged. But it's still a real phenomenon. And he's hoping that it's real enough that he can come into Parliament now and win a seat based on that.

And tell us a bit more, I guess, about his personality, because he is quite charismatic, isn't he? In his own way.

And tell us a bit more, I guess, about his personality, because he is quite charismatic, isn't he? In his own way.

He is. He's very entertaining. He's, he's he's more Boris Johnson than Rishi Sunak, for example. Yeah, but he's entertaining and he's Trump like Trump esque in that when he's speaking, he holds an audience's attention, even if he's saying pretty nutty stuff. But nutty, uh, equals attention equals media coverage. And that equals, uh, votes. Not enough ever in his case. But it was enough for him to carry the argument in favor of Brexit to get the conservative government of Britain to agree to that proposition. And it's inflicted the self-harm on Britain, now known as Brexit.

He is. He's very entertaining. He's, he's he's more Boris Johnson than Rishi Sunak, for example. Yeah, but he's entertaining and he's Trump like Trump esque in that when he's speaking, he holds an audience's attention, even if he's saying pretty nutty stuff. But nutty, uh, equals attention equals media coverage. And that equals, uh, votes. Not enough ever in his case. But it was enough for him to carry the argument in favor of Brexit to get the conservative government of Britain to agree to that proposition. And it's inflicted the self-harm on Britain, now known as Brexit.

And he is pretty Trumpian, isn't he? I mean, I know he's an ally of Trump's. And he just last week described the convictions against Trump on the 34 felony charges as a disgrace. I'm sure Trump was happy to see that. And I believe that when Farage declared that he's going to run in the election, he said, let's make Britain great again.

And he is pretty Trumpian, isn't he? I mean, I know he's an ally of Trump's. And he just last week described the convictions against Trump on the 34 felony charges as a disgrace. I'm sure Trump was happy to see that. And I believe that when Farage declared that he's going to run in the election, he said, let's make Britain great again.

Well, yes, terribly original, isn't it?

Well, yes, terribly original, isn't it?

Yeah, it definitely has Trumpian vibes, isn't it?

Yeah, it definitely has Trumpian vibes, isn't it?

Well, you know, Trump has got a formula going and Nigel Farage is on the same formula. It's nativist, it's isolationist, it's populist. And when I say populist right wing populist, there are lots of definitions of populism. The one I like is populism is a political style of promising unworkably simple solutions, unworkably simple solutions to complex questions. That's what Trump does. Build a wall. You'll stop the flow. Well, we're seeing how that worked out. Millions of people are pouring into the country. Uh, whatever it is, you know, um, raise the tariff, you'll fix the problem. Well, it fixed no problems in America. Uh, none. It raised the price of consumer goods a bit, but that's about it. So it's that style, um, and, uh, left wing populism. There is a form of populism on the left as well. They have one thing in common. Left and right wing populists are both, uh, are anti-elite. They both punch the elites hard and they claim to be of the people. But right wing populists have one distinguishing feature. They always have an outgroup, which they blame for many or all of a country's problems. And in that case, in the case of Nigel Farage, it's, uh, European and African immigrants coming through and, um, Northern Africa, Middle East and immigrants coming through Europe into Britain. This is the style and this is what and it's what Farage, having placed the Brexit campaign on now, hopes to translate into a seat in Parliament.

Well, you know, Trump has got a formula going and Nigel Farage is on the same formula. It's nativist, it's isolationist, it's populist. And when I say populist right wing populist, there are lots of definitions of populism. The one I like is populism is a political style of promising unworkably simple solutions, unworkably simple solutions to complex questions. That's what Trump does. Build a wall. You'll stop the flow. Well, we're seeing how that worked out. Millions of people are pouring into the country. Uh, whatever it is, you know, um, raise the tariff, you'll fix the problem. Well, it fixed no problems in America. Uh, none. It raised the price of consumer goods a bit, but that's about it. So it's that style, um, and, uh, left wing populism. There is a form of populism on the left as well. They have one thing in common. Left and right wing populists are both, uh, are anti-elite. They both punch the elites hard and they claim to be of the people. But right wing populists have one distinguishing feature. They always have an outgroup, which they blame for many or all of a country's problems. And in that case, in the case of Nigel Farage, it's, uh, European and African immigrants coming through and, um, Northern Africa, Middle East and immigrants coming through Europe into Britain. This is the style and this is what and it's what Farage, having placed the Brexit campaign on now, hopes to translate into a seat in Parliament.

Well, tell me about this. What threat, I guess, does Nigel Farage really realistically pose to either Rishi Sunak or anyone else in this election, because this is his eighth tilt at trying at a seat in the House of Commons? I mean, honestly, this goes back to 1994 when he first, uh, tried tried it on and most polls forecast that the Reform Party, which of course is Nigel Farage, the party that he's now leading, aren't going to win any seats. So tell us what's happening here.

Well, tell me about this. What threat, I guess, does Nigel Farage really realistically pose to either Rishi Sunak or anyone else in this election, because this is his eighth tilt at trying at a seat in the House of Commons? I mean, honestly, this goes back to 1994 when he first, uh, tried tried it on and most polls forecast that the Reform Party, which of course is Nigel Farage, the party that he's now leading, aren't going to win any seats. So tell us what's happening here.

Well, the polling until, what, two days ago? I mean, I'm sure there'll be a plethora of new polls in the next few days. But before he announced his candidacy, the Reform Party was polling about 11% on average and wasn't projected, as you say, wasn't projected to win any seats at all. The problem he presents is that he's on the right of Rishi Sunak, he's on the right of the Conservative Party. So therefore he threatens to take votes from the conservatives to to his to Nigel Farage's Reform Party, which means the Tories would be under assault from left and right. They've got Labour, which are in a crushingly ascendant position in the polls and taking votes on the Tories left and Nigel Farage threatening now to take them on the right. That's, that's the problem. And they don't have preferential voting. So a lost vote is a lost vote and it just would inflict more damage. The Tories are already heading for a rout of historic proportions, and partly that's because they followed Nigel Farage into Brexit, by the way. Partly. But now he's threatening to take votes away from the Conservative Party and just watch them tank even worse than they would have otherwise. So that's the that's the electoral risk he's posing. The Labour Party, you know, they're not too disturbed by it.

Well, the polling until, what, two days ago? I mean, I'm sure there'll be a plethora of new polls in the next few days. But before he announced his candidacy, the Reform Party was polling about 11% on average and wasn't projected, as you say, wasn't projected to win any seats at all. The problem he presents is that he's on the right of Rishi Sunak, he's on the right of the Conservative Party. So therefore he threatens to take votes from the conservatives to to his to Nigel Farage's Reform Party, which means the Tories would be under assault from left and right. They've got Labour, which are in a crushingly ascendant position in the polls and taking votes on the Tories left and Nigel Farage threatening now to take them on the right. That's, that's the problem. And they don't have preferential voting. So a lost vote is a lost vote and it just would inflict more damage. The Tories are already heading for a rout of historic proportions, and partly that's because they followed Nigel Farage into Brexit, by the way. Partly. But now he's threatening to take votes away from the Conservative Party and just watch them tank even worse than they would have otherwise. So that's the that's the electoral risk he's posing. The Labour Party, you know, they're not too disturbed by it.

We'll be right back. Peter, I want to turn more broadly to global politics and the rise of, I guess, the hard right half the planet is voting this year. So can you tell me a bit about that and about this broader trend globally?

We'll be right back. Peter, I want to turn more broadly to global politics and the rise of, I guess, the hard right half the planet is voting this year. So can you tell me a bit about that and about this broader trend globally?

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, something like 49% of the global population are in countries that go to elections this year. So that's interesting. And it's interesting in itself because it's striking that even though we've we're living in this world where democracy is on the retreat and autocracy is on the rise, that's still most countries feel the need, even if they're not liberal countries, even if the elections are rigged, still feel the need to go through the legitimating process of an election. They still feel that it's necessary to demonstrate, even if it's even if it's fake, that they have the will of the people. So that's that's very interesting that that's a persistent near universal concept. Even the Chinese, the most repressive large country on the planet, uh, conduct elections. Um, they're fake. There are there are four opposition parties and they're all, uh, different elements of the Chinese Communist Party. They're not real parties. There's no threat to the Chinese Communist Party, but they still feel the need to go through the motions. It's fascinating. Um, I.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, something like 49% of the global population are in countries that go to elections this year. So that's interesting. And it's interesting in itself because it's striking that even though we've we're living in this world where democracy is on the retreat and autocracy is on the rise, that's still most countries feel the need, even if they're not liberal countries, even if the elections are rigged, still feel the need to go through the legitimating process of an election. They still feel that it's necessary to demonstrate, even if it's even if it's fake, that they have the will of the people. So that's that's very interesting that that's a persistent near universal concept. Even the Chinese, the most repressive large country on the planet, uh, conduct elections. Um, they're fake. There are there are four opposition parties and they're all, uh, different elements of the Chinese Communist Party. They're not real parties. There's no threat to the Chinese Communist Party, but they still feel the need to go through the motions. It's fascinating. Um, I.

Have to ask, is that positive in some way? I mean, Russia to Russia also has elections. Is is is that positive? I guess that they're still feel the desire for this stab of legitimacy, even if it's really not in practice.

Have to ask, is that positive in some way? I mean, Russia to Russia also has elections. Is is is that positive? I guess that they're still feel the desire for this stab of legitimacy, even if it's really not in practice.

Well, of course it's unhealthy and it's unrealistic. And it in those countries, it simply demonstrates the bankruptcy of electoral democracy, of the voting process, but as an enduring notion in the human mindset that it is the the only real source of legitimacy. You don't have divine mandates. You don't have kings and queens. Even the most hardened and repressive regimes still need to appeal to that idea. And the fact that that endures in human affairs is probably a good one for the future of the world, because it's still it's still allows returns to democracy and liberal values, meaning freedoms, human freedoms rather than repression in the longer term, once we've worked through this current phase.

Well, of course it's unhealthy and it's unrealistic. And it in those countries, it simply demonstrates the bankruptcy of electoral democracy, of the voting process, but as an enduring notion in the human mindset that it is the the only real source of legitimacy. You don't have divine mandates. You don't have kings and queens. Even the most hardened and repressive regimes still need to appeal to that idea. And the fact that that endures in human affairs is probably a good one for the future of the world, because it's still it's still allows returns to democracy and liberal values, meaning freedoms, human freedoms rather than repression in the longer term, once we've worked through this current phase.

But it's not always clear cut, is it, to easily categorize whether a party is far right or not?

But it's not always clear cut, is it, to easily categorize whether a party is far right or not?

Let's start with the biggest democracy in the world, India, which has only just had its election. Modi has won a third term. This will give him 15 years altogether in power.

Let's start with the biggest democracy in the world, India, which has only just had its election. Modi has won a third term. This will give him 15 years altogether in power.

Modi. The exit polls predicted a BJP landslide, but the Indian voter had other plans.

Modi. The exit polls predicted a BJP landslide, but the Indian voter had other plans.

Which is a record only Nehru, the founding prime minister of independent India, had such a long.

Which is a record only Nehru, the founding prime minister of independent India, had such a long.

Reign.

Reign.

The final result tally the BJP has won 240 seats. As of now, you need 272 to win a simple majority in the lower house. But he has.

The final result tally the BJP has won 240 seats. As of now, you need 272 to win a simple majority in the lower house. But he has.

Lost his party's absolute majority. He will have a majority coalition in the Lok Sabha, the lower house of parliament. So he's going to be prime minister and he's still in a solid position. But his party lost ground. Now, how does that fit with the theory of a right wing extremist or right wing populist rise? Well, on the one hand, he does fit some of the characteristics of a right wing populist. His Hindu nationalism and a quasi mystical Hindu nationalism confirms that, yes, he is a populist and a hard right populist at that. And he has blamed India's problems on the poison. He's called the Muslim population of India Indian citizens poison, among other insults. So that's pretty nasty. And his illiberal trends to suppress his political adversaries and the media, these are all pretty unpleasant, repressive right wing tendencies. And yet, why is it that that's not the only explanation for why he's just been elected to a third term? He's a he's a committed welfarist. Now he's built over a million toilets. He has, under his watch have built something like 60 million concrete houses, 60 million instead of mud huts. He's put half a billion people into the formal financial system for the first time, so they can receive government benefits, which they couldn't before. Half a billion people. This is a modi initiative of which he's very proud and he should be. These are all the sorts of welfarist, um, uh, steps that in the West would be associated with a left wing government. And yet this is a right wing government. Then you come to developed democracies and Europe in particular. Um, and that's a different that's a completely different story.

Lost his party's absolute majority. He will have a majority coalition in the Lok Sabha, the lower house of parliament. So he's going to be prime minister and he's still in a solid position. But his party lost ground. Now, how does that fit with the theory of a right wing extremist or right wing populist rise? Well, on the one hand, he does fit some of the characteristics of a right wing populist. His Hindu nationalism and a quasi mystical Hindu nationalism confirms that, yes, he is a populist and a hard right populist at that. And he has blamed India's problems on the poison. He's called the Muslim population of India Indian citizens poison, among other insults. So that's pretty nasty. And his illiberal trends to suppress his political adversaries and the media, these are all pretty unpleasant, repressive right wing tendencies. And yet, why is it that that's not the only explanation for why he's just been elected to a third term? He's a he's a committed welfarist. Now he's built over a million toilets. He has, under his watch have built something like 60 million concrete houses, 60 million instead of mud huts. He's put half a billion people into the formal financial system for the first time, so they can receive government benefits, which they couldn't before. Half a billion people. This is a modi initiative of which he's very proud and he should be. These are all the sorts of welfarist, um, uh, steps that in the West would be associated with a left wing government. And yet this is a right wing government. Then you come to developed democracies and Europe in particular. Um, and that's a different that's a completely different story.

And so tell me about this. Tell me about what's happening with regards to the rise of the far right, if that's what you want to call it in various areas in Europe, because there are some scary developments there. I'm thinking in particular of the far right populist who has voted in in the Netherlands, for instance, last year.

And so tell me about this. Tell me about what's happening with regards to the rise of the far right, if that's what you want to call it in various areas in Europe, because there are some scary developments there. I'm thinking in particular of the far right populist who has voted in in the Netherlands, for instance, last year.

Yeah, Geert Wilders. That's right. And he's only one of many. And Western Europe is the hotbed of far right populism, other than we've already talked about Donald Trump and the European Parliament elections are on now. They're on these next, next few days. And this will be this phenomenon will be reflected in the results of the European Parliament as well. So the far right in recent times has won elections in Italy and the Netherlands. As you say, Marine Le Pen is ahead in the polls in France leading and in Austria and Belgium as well. And there are far right parties making up governing coalitions in Finland and Slovakia. Finland is not a country we associate with far right populists, so they're absolutely on the rise. Marine Le Pen in France is promising a frexit to take a very ungainly term, but to take to take France out of the European Union for the same reason, to shut the shut the border. This this is the common theme it is it's illegal immigrants, but it's also legal immigrants. It's anti-Muslim, sometimes more overtly than others. But Trump was pretty clear about it. It's remember he shut the border, at least initially. They reopened it to seven countries that he thought were Muslim majority countries. Um, it's the same with Geert Wilders. It's the same with Marine Le Pen. So that's all bound up in the one package. So it's a sort of combination of cultural nationalism and through the expression of the border and immigration.

Yeah, Geert Wilders. That's right. And he's only one of many. And Western Europe is the hotbed of far right populism, other than we've already talked about Donald Trump and the European Parliament elections are on now. They're on these next, next few days. And this will be this phenomenon will be reflected in the results of the European Parliament as well. So the far right in recent times has won elections in Italy and the Netherlands. As you say, Marine Le Pen is ahead in the polls in France leading and in Austria and Belgium as well. And there are far right parties making up governing coalitions in Finland and Slovakia. Finland is not a country we associate with far right populists, so they're absolutely on the rise. Marine Le Pen in France is promising a frexit to take a very ungainly term, but to take to take France out of the European Union for the same reason, to shut the shut the border. This this is the common theme it is it's illegal immigrants, but it's also legal immigrants. It's anti-Muslim, sometimes more overtly than others. But Trump was pretty clear about it. It's remember he shut the border, at least initially. They reopened it to seven countries that he thought were Muslim majority countries. Um, it's the same with Geert Wilders. It's the same with Marine Le Pen. So that's all bound up in the one package. So it's a sort of combination of cultural nationalism and through the expression of the border and immigration.

And in Australia, we're due for an election next year. So where does this broader move to the right or to the hard conservative, I guess, sit at the moment here? Is it actually gaining momentum here too?

And in Australia, we're due for an election next year. So where does this broader move to the right or to the hard conservative, I guess, sit at the moment here? Is it actually gaining momentum here too?

We don't have a far right populist upsurge. Pauline Hanson is still just a senator in the Senate. You know, she's not progressed from where she started 20 years ago. More than 20 years ago, Clive Palmer spent 120 plus million dollars. Last election, he put up a candidate in every seat in the lower house. He didn't win one. He did win a seat in the Senate. But compared to that effort, uh, again, it's a complete abject failure. People aren't falling for this in Australia. Not yet, at least. Now, why is that? Proportionally speaking, we have a big immigration intake among the developed countries. We have the biggest, multicultural, biggest immigrant population in the world, double the proportion of the US. So the US has about 25% of its people are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. In Australia, it's about 50%. So why don't we have that backlash? Well, the reason the essential difference, Samantha, is that Australia, for years now, starting with Keating and followed by Howard and then Gillard, Rudd, then we had nine years of the the liberals. They've all been tough on illegal immigration. They've all been tough on boat people. This concern in Australia was nipped in the bud and has been managed and has given the public confidence that the immigration program is well managed. So as long as that goes on, our far right fringe doesn't make any progress. So I think that is really telling distinction.

We don't have a far right populist upsurge. Pauline Hanson is still just a senator in the Senate. You know, she's not progressed from where she started 20 years ago. More than 20 years ago, Clive Palmer spent 120 plus million dollars. Last election, he put up a candidate in every seat in the lower house. He didn't win one. He did win a seat in the Senate. But compared to that effort, uh, again, it's a complete abject failure. People aren't falling for this in Australia. Not yet, at least. Now, why is that? Proportionally speaking, we have a big immigration intake among the developed countries. We have the biggest, multicultural, biggest immigrant population in the world, double the proportion of the US. So the US has about 25% of its people are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. In Australia, it's about 50%. So why don't we have that backlash? Well, the reason the essential difference, Samantha, is that Australia, for years now, starting with Keating and followed by Howard and then Gillard, Rudd, then we had nine years of the the liberals. They've all been tough on illegal immigration. They've all been tough on boat people. This concern in Australia was nipped in the bud and has been managed and has given the public confidence that the immigration program is well managed. So as long as that goes on, our far right fringe doesn't make any progress. So I think that is really telling distinction.

Which brings me to where Peter Dutton sits in all of this. In the last few months, there were stories that the coalition got quite upset about and attacked the Labor Party for illegal boats landing offshore. I believe some of them were in Western Australia. The coalition made a very big deal about this. So is this an issue that might blow up here again, or do you think that was just, you know, it's going to recede? It really was only a few boats.

Which brings me to where Peter Dutton sits in all of this. In the last few months, there were stories that the coalition got quite upset about and attacked the Labor Party for illegal boats landing offshore. I believe some of them were in Western Australia. The coalition made a very big deal about this. So is this an issue that might blow up here again, or do you think that was just, you know, it's going to recede? It really was only a few boats.

This is an issue that can blow up at any time. And labor is vulnerable on it. Labor has to be seen to be competent on the borders. And that requires them in terms of electoral perception, to be just as harsh, uh, with, with boats, with illegal arrivals or even harsher. We've got a problem at the moment, which is that the housing shortage, um, is being blamed on immigrants. Um, and that's why you saw the labor government promising to halve the level of immigration, net immigration over two years, and they're in the process of doing that. And the liberals going a step further. And Dutton, as you've you've alluded to Dutton. What's his role? Well, he said we're going to take it further. We'll cut another 20, 25% or more from, depending on which category you look at from the intake. So now is Dutton being our right wing populist, our right wing extremist? Well, no, not really. There are problems with what he's saying. Was he pitching to an anti-immigrant vote? You bet he was. That was the whole point. But could he be a little more generous with refugees? Absolutely. Did he blame the housing shortage on immigrants? That was strongly implied in what he said to a lot of Australians already have that view. Yes, we do, but Dutton is not proposing an end to the immigration program. Dutton is not proposing to lock up or discriminate against Muslims. Dutton is promising to cut the intake back within proportions which are historically reasonable in the Australian history. But in overall terms, we are in a different universe to Nigel Farage, to Donald Trump, to Marine Le Pen. This is not the Australian picture at the moment. It's always on the fringe and it's always trying and it's always bubbling away. But as long as the main parties are seen to be dealing with the immigration question and other and other perceived problems, that's what keeps us safe. Sanity in our in the in the two party system. And I know a lot of people will contest that and say they're not sane but broadly speaking compares to Trump, compares to the US, compares to Western Europe. Our two party politics is sane and centrist.

This is an issue that can blow up at any time. And labor is vulnerable on it. Labor has to be seen to be competent on the borders. And that requires them in terms of electoral perception, to be just as harsh, uh, with, with boats, with illegal arrivals or even harsher. We've got a problem at the moment, which is that the housing shortage, um, is being blamed on immigrants. Um, and that's why you saw the labor government promising to halve the level of immigration, net immigration over two years, and they're in the process of doing that. And the liberals going a step further. And Dutton, as you've you've alluded to Dutton. What's his role? Well, he said we're going to take it further. We'll cut another 20, 25% or more from, depending on which category you look at from the intake. So now is Dutton being our right wing populist, our right wing extremist? Well, no, not really. There are problems with what he's saying. Was he pitching to an anti-immigrant vote? You bet he was. That was the whole point. But could he be a little more generous with refugees? Absolutely. Did he blame the housing shortage on immigrants? That was strongly implied in what he said to a lot of Australians already have that view. Yes, we do, but Dutton is not proposing an end to the immigration program. Dutton is not proposing to lock up or discriminate against Muslims. Dutton is promising to cut the intake back within proportions which are historically reasonable in the Australian history. But in overall terms, we are in a different universe to Nigel Farage, to Donald Trump, to Marine Le Pen. This is not the Australian picture at the moment. It's always on the fringe and it's always trying and it's always bubbling away. But as long as the main parties are seen to be dealing with the immigration question and other and other perceived problems, that's what keeps us safe. Sanity in our in the in the two party system. And I know a lot of people will contest that and say they're not sane but broadly speaking compares to Trump, compares to the US, compares to Western Europe. Our two party politics is sane and centrist.

Well, thank you so much as always, Peter, for your time.

Well, thank you so much as always, Peter, for your time.

It's a pleasure, Samantha. It's a fascinating subject.

It's a pleasure, Samantha. It's a fascinating subject.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole, with technical assistance by David McMillan and Debbie Harrington. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smartcamo forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, this is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole, with technical assistance by David McMillan and Debbie Harrington. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smartcamo forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, this is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.