Hi there. I'm Jacqueline Maley, the host of Inside Politics, The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald's weekly politics podcast. We're bringing you the best episodes of 2024 before we return in early February for the election year. In February last year, the identities of hundreds of Jewish academics and creatives who were members of a WhatsApp group were leaked by pro-Palestinian activists in the wake of the October 7th attack and the subsequent war in Gaza. In this episode, Doctor Simon Copland of the Australian National University and chief political correspondent David Crowe discuss whether this leak can be classified as doxing and whether such a practice should be outlawed. Welcome, gentlemen.

Hi there. I'm Jacqueline Maley, the host of Inside Politics, The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald's weekly politics podcast. We're bringing you the best episodes of 2024 before we return in early February for the election year. In February last year, the identities of hundreds of Jewish academics and creatives who were members of a WhatsApp group were leaked by pro-Palestinian activists in the wake of the October 7th attack and the subsequent war in Gaza. In this episode, Doctor Simon Copland of the Australian National University and chief political correspondent David Crowe discuss whether this leak can be classified as doxing and whether such a practice should be outlawed. Welcome, gentlemen.

Hi, Jackie.

Hi, Jackie.

Thanks for having me on.

Thanks for having me on.

So this week, the federal government announced plans to introduce new laws to crack down on something called doxing. Simon, that's where I want to start with this discussion. For those who don't know what is doxing.

So this week, the federal government announced plans to introduce new laws to crack down on something called doxing. Simon, that's where I want to start with this discussion. For those who don't know what is doxing.

So doxing is the release of people's personal information, normally for malicious intent and by malicious intent. Normally this is understood to involve an intent for facilitating harassment of those people. So a really great example of doxing a number of years ago that I studied in the United States was a campaign called Thought Audit. Thought is an acronym for that. Ho over there. It's very widely used in men's rights circles. And in this audit, they were encouraging people to report sex workers to the IRS, to the Internal Revenue Service. And members created a huge database of sex workers, over 160,000 people and released it online. And that included people's personal information, their full names, where they lived, uh, their payment services, these types of things. Database was then used to harass individuals quite heavily and created significant negative impacts for those people. So that's a really clear example of of doxing, where people's personal information has been released for the purpose of harassment.

So doxing is the release of people's personal information, normally for malicious intent and by malicious intent. Normally this is understood to involve an intent for facilitating harassment of those people. So a really great example of doxing a number of years ago that I studied in the United States was a campaign called Thought Audit. Thought is an acronym for that. Ho over there. It's very widely used in men's rights circles. And in this audit, they were encouraging people to report sex workers to the IRS, to the Internal Revenue Service. And members created a huge database of sex workers, over 160,000 people and released it online. And that included people's personal information, their full names, where they lived, uh, their payment services, these types of things. Database was then used to harass individuals quite heavily and created significant negative impacts for those people. So that's a really clear example of of doxing, where people's personal information has been released for the purpose of harassment.

Yeah, that's an awful example. I hadn't heard of that before.

Yeah, that's an awful example. I hadn't heard of that before.

Yeah, it really was.

Yeah, it really was.

David, the reason the government has decided to embark on this now is because the contents of a private WhatsApp group, WhatsApp, being a social media app where you can chat to other people and the names of the people in that group was leaked recently. Can you tell me about the WhatsApp group and exactly what happened?

David, the reason the government has decided to embark on this now is because the contents of a private WhatsApp group, WhatsApp, being a social media app where you can chat to other people and the names of the people in that group was leaked recently. Can you tell me about the WhatsApp group and exactly what happened?

So the WhatsApp group was set up by a group of Jewish community members late last year and this included artists, singers, writers, people of various backgrounds to talk about what was going on in the Middle East and I guess to share their experiences in a private group that appears to have about 600 members, and their personal details were released by pro-Palestinian activists, I think would be a fair way to describe them, because they were identifying the members of this WhatsApp group as as their opponents. The WhatsApp group has really been covered in depth by our colleague at The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald, Chip Le Grand, who reported on this. But the key thing here is that the members of the WhatsApp group are members of the Jewish community with various views on the war in the Middle East. So it wasn't an exposure of a political activist group in some way. It was the release of personal information details, a photo gallery of members of this group and caused great personal harm to those people. Now that then, once Chip Le Grand had reported that in The Age and the Herald last Friday, then set off this debate about is this getting out of hand, what can be done about it? And it was a couple of days later, earlier this week, when Prime Minister Anthony Albanese was asked about this and said that he had asked the Attorney-General, Mark Dreyfus, to bring forward laws to stop doxing. So that doesn't happen every day, where the Prime Minister says in a live interview that he's asked a minister to get cracking on something and bring it bring it forward. The government was already working on some Privacy Act changes that's been in the works for months, but the Prime Minister basically indicated that something new was going to be done. We don't know exactly how that's going to be shaped and structured, but it is a new development and it's underway now.

So the WhatsApp group was set up by a group of Jewish community members late last year and this included artists, singers, writers, people of various backgrounds to talk about what was going on in the Middle East and I guess to share their experiences in a private group that appears to have about 600 members, and their personal details were released by pro-Palestinian activists, I think would be a fair way to describe them, because they were identifying the members of this WhatsApp group as as their opponents. The WhatsApp group has really been covered in depth by our colleague at The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald, Chip Le Grand, who reported on this. But the key thing here is that the members of the WhatsApp group are members of the Jewish community with various views on the war in the Middle East. So it wasn't an exposure of a political activist group in some way. It was the release of personal information details, a photo gallery of members of this group and caused great personal harm to those people. Now that then, once Chip Le Grand had reported that in The Age and the Herald last Friday, then set off this debate about is this getting out of hand, what can be done about it? And it was a couple of days later, earlier this week, when Prime Minister Anthony Albanese was asked about this and said that he had asked the Attorney-General, Mark Dreyfus, to bring forward laws to stop doxing. So that doesn't happen every day, where the Prime Minister says in a live interview that he's asked a minister to get cracking on something and bring it bring it forward. The government was already working on some Privacy Act changes that's been in the works for months, but the Prime Minister basically indicated that something new was going to be done. We don't know exactly how that's going to be shaped and structured, but it is a new development and it's underway now.

Simon, my understanding was this is a group of Jewish creatives. As David said, there's hundreds of people on this private chat group and they were talking about all sorts of issues, but mostly coalescing around the war between Gaza and Israel and sort of possible responses to it. I think there's some suggestion that some organizations might be lobbied or pressured to cut ties with people who have a very anti-Israel or pro-Palestine stance. Does this actually classify as doxing, given that no addresses or phone numbers were published online, only their names and the transcript of the chat?

Simon, my understanding was this is a group of Jewish creatives. As David said, there's hundreds of people on this private chat group and they were talking about all sorts of issues, but mostly coalescing around the war between Gaza and Israel and sort of possible responses to it. I think there's some suggestion that some organizations might be lobbied or pressured to cut ties with people who have a very anti-Israel or pro-Palestine stance. Does this actually classify as doxing, given that no addresses or phone numbers were published online, only their names and the transcript of the chat?

Yeah, I think that there are two elements that I would suggest that mean that this probably isn't a case of doxing. The first one you've already mentioned, which is that names were released of people engaging in this chat. But no, as you said, addresses, phone numbers, emails were released. And that has a significant difference in terms of the ability of people to contact these people to to track them down or to harass them. I think the second area is an area where I slightly disagree with David on this. One is it seems very clear that there was quite a bit of political chat in this conversation. It certainly from my understanding, and I know some people who were in this chat initially, it didn't start in that way. It started as a group of people coming together to talk about how to support each other during a very difficult time, and then headed in a direction towards more, trying to engage in political discussions and political action around the Israel-Palestine issue. Now, some people have been caught in the mix of that, people who weren't participating in those conversations, and that's not good. It's really been very unfortunate, but I think one can make an argument that this was a more of a sort of version of a kind of political whistleblowing. And in fact, the initial material was leaked by a member of that group to those pro-Palestinian activists. So I think that given those two factors, that it was only names and it was names of already public figures generally, and that this was very political in nature, suggests that we're looking more at a leak, kind of whistleblowing leak. And I think there's real risks in suggesting that that's something that we might want to consider banning.

Yeah, I think that there are two elements that I would suggest that mean that this probably isn't a case of doxing. The first one you've already mentioned, which is that names were released of people engaging in this chat. But no, as you said, addresses, phone numbers, emails were released. And that has a significant difference in terms of the ability of people to contact these people to to track them down or to harass them. I think the second area is an area where I slightly disagree with David on this. One is it seems very clear that there was quite a bit of political chat in this conversation. It certainly from my understanding, and I know some people who were in this chat initially, it didn't start in that way. It started as a group of people coming together to talk about how to support each other during a very difficult time, and then headed in a direction towards more, trying to engage in political discussions and political action around the Israel-Palestine issue. Now, some people have been caught in the mix of that, people who weren't participating in those conversations, and that's not good. It's really been very unfortunate, but I think one can make an argument that this was a more of a sort of version of a kind of political whistleblowing. And in fact, the initial material was leaked by a member of that group to those pro-Palestinian activists. So I think that given those two factors, that it was only names and it was names of already public figures generally, and that this was very political in nature, suggests that we're looking more at a leak, kind of whistleblowing leak. And I think there's real risks in suggesting that that's something that we might want to consider banning.

I have an issue with that, actually. I really disagree with what you've just said, Simon. When I look at the statements about what happened. I see statements from, well, from the Jewish community that that talk about what happened with that group as sort of encouraging consequences that can menace or intimidate or harass those members of the WhatsApp group. So, you know, maybe this becomes a threshold question. Do you have to release the phone numbers of somebody for it to be a kind of a doxing that can be menacing or intimidatory towards those people? Because that's clearly what the government is looking at. It won't be just, well, it will be about the consequences of doxing being to Being to menace people. Wasn't that happening here with this group? Wasn't the release of the information going to be used in a way that encouraged people to be intimidated?

I have an issue with that, actually. I really disagree with what you've just said, Simon. When I look at the statements about what happened. I see statements from, well, from the Jewish community that that talk about what happened with that group as sort of encouraging consequences that can menace or intimidate or harass those members of the WhatsApp group. So, you know, maybe this becomes a threshold question. Do you have to release the phone numbers of somebody for it to be a kind of a doxing that can be menacing or intimidatory towards those people? Because that's clearly what the government is looking at. It won't be just, well, it will be about the consequences of doxing being to Being to menace people. Wasn't that happening here with this group? Wasn't the release of the information going to be used in a way that encouraged people to be intimidated?

Well, there has certainly been negative consequences of this, and people have been intimidated, and we already actually have legislation that can stop that. So, um, but.

Well, there has certainly been negative consequences of this, and people have been intimidated, and we already actually have legislation that can stop that. So, um, but.

So if you say that, Simon, that means it's not just whistle blowing here. It's, it's it's kind of people are being ganged up on by the public release of this information in that way.

So if you say that, Simon, that means it's not just whistle blowing here. It's, it's it's kind of people are being ganged up on by the public release of this information in that way.

And I think, as I said, there's already legislation that can stop harassment, um, in that should be used and in fact is often not used because a lot of our enforcement agencies don't understand online harassment and refuse to engage in it. But I think we have a question here about what does a political leak or whistleblowing look like? And whistleblowing often results in this, and that's not a thing that I would condone. I do not suggest that the that the consequences of people online who then take names and harass people is a good thing. And as I said, we have legislation against that already. But when there's political conversations going on in a very heated debate, there is a legitimate argument to be made that this is a leak or a whistleblowing situation, not a doxing situation. And I think it's very difficult to claim that there's malicious intent here, or that there is an intent from the people who did the leak to promote the harassment that followed. Now, it's really blurry here because, you know, obviously harassment followed, and that's really unfortunate. And I don't condone that in any way. But is there a public interest to know that there are groups of creatives getting together who are discussing ways to politically engage in this debate? In some cases, discussing ways where they were encouraging people to go to pro-Palestinian Facebook pages, to to out people to do those sorts of things. If that's happening, I think there is a case to be made that that's within the public interest to to know that that's going on.

And I think, as I said, there's already legislation that can stop harassment, um, in that should be used and in fact is often not used because a lot of our enforcement agencies don't understand online harassment and refuse to engage in it. But I think we have a question here about what does a political leak or whistleblowing look like? And whistleblowing often results in this, and that's not a thing that I would condone. I do not suggest that the that the consequences of people online who then take names and harass people is a good thing. And as I said, we have legislation against that already. But when there's political conversations going on in a very heated debate, there is a legitimate argument to be made that this is a leak or a whistleblowing situation, not a doxing situation. And I think it's very difficult to claim that there's malicious intent here, or that there is an intent from the people who did the leak to promote the harassment that followed. Now, it's really blurry here because, you know, obviously harassment followed, and that's really unfortunate. And I don't condone that in any way. But is there a public interest to know that there are groups of creatives getting together who are discussing ways to politically engage in this debate? In some cases, discussing ways where they were encouraging people to go to pro-Palestinian Facebook pages, to to out people to do those sorts of things. If that's happening, I think there is a case to be made that that's within the public interest to to know that that's going on.

I think you've both hit on something very, very important and I want to get to it. Now, in terms of the remedy that the government might propose for doxing, if indeed you call this doxing, because I think the consequences for the people involved is indisputable, whether or not that harm was sort of intended by the people who leaked the information. What kind of legislation is the government proposing to put in place to stop this practice? We don't know the details of it yet, but do we have any sort of indications, Simon? Perhaps based on what has happened internationally?

I think you've both hit on something very, very important and I want to get to it. Now, in terms of the remedy that the government might propose for doxing, if indeed you call this doxing, because I think the consequences for the people involved is indisputable, whether or not that harm was sort of intended by the people who leaked the information. What kind of legislation is the government proposing to put in place to stop this practice? We don't know the details of it yet, but do we have any sort of indications, Simon? Perhaps based on what has happened internationally?

Look, I don't as I said, we don't have the details yet. And so it's a bit hard to tell, and it'll be hard to judge until we see those details. And at the moment, what the government has said is that they want to ban doxing. And they're using that definition that I used previously, which is the release of personal information for malicious intent. And I think I think there's two key elements that they're going to have to address here. First of all, what do they mean by personal information. And does the release, for example, of names, does that cross that threshold? The second element is what how do we define malicious intent? And I think that that's a really, really challenging one, because there are heaps of examples of what we would consider doxing, that there are arguments to be made about that. So, so one really good example that I've used previously is in the United States following the Charlottesville riots.

Look, I don't as I said, we don't have the details yet. And so it's a bit hard to tell, and it'll be hard to judge until we see those details. And at the moment, what the government has said is that they want to ban doxing. And they're using that definition that I used previously, which is the release of personal information for malicious intent. And I think I think there's two key elements that they're going to have to address here. First of all, what do they mean by personal information. And does the release, for example, of names, does that cross that threshold? The second element is what how do we define malicious intent? And I think that that's a really, really challenging one, because there are heaps of examples of what we would consider doxing, that there are arguments to be made about that. So, so one really good example that I've used previously is in the United States following the Charlottesville riots.

We begin tonight with that breaking news, a horrific scene in Charlottesville, Virginia, a white nationalist rally that descended into deadly violence and chaos. A car plowing into a crowd of demonstrators protesting against those white nationalists. A 32 year old woman killed a number of.

We begin tonight with that breaking news, a horrific scene in Charlottesville, Virginia, a white nationalist rally that descended into deadly violence and chaos. A car plowing into a crowd of demonstrators protesting against those white nationalists. A 32 year old woman killed a number of.

People, scoured the photos of those riots, and found the white supremacists who were participating in those riots, found their names and often released their location as well. Now, using the first part of that definition, releasing personal information that clearly would be considered, it meets that first criteria of doxing. But is that malicious intent? And that's a really good question, and I don't have an answer for it. Do people have the right to know that there's white supremacists living in their community. I think you could argue that either way. And so the malicious intent question here is really challenging, one that was clearly called doxing. But I think that if you're using that definition, it becomes really, really tricky to understand how you would ban it.

People, scoured the photos of those riots, and found the white supremacists who were participating in those riots, found their names and often released their location as well. Now, using the first part of that definition, releasing personal information that clearly would be considered, it meets that first criteria of doxing. But is that malicious intent? And that's a really good question, and I don't have an answer for it. Do people have the right to know that there's white supremacists living in their community. I think you could argue that either way. And so the malicious intent question here is really challenging, one that was clearly called doxing. But I think that if you're using that definition, it becomes really, really tricky to understand how you would ban it.

Yeah. It veers close to vigilantism though doesn't it, in some cases. David, I just want to ask, once we see the legislation from the government on what they plan on doing on this, is there likely to be any kind of debate or controversy around the issues that Simon's talking about, that there could be public interest in leaking information of these kinds of private chats? As journalists, we leak information that is intended privately all the time. Is there likely to be sort of a free speech, freedom of information kind of angle on this from some people, perhaps within the coalition?

Yeah. It veers close to vigilantism though doesn't it, in some cases. David, I just want to ask, once we see the legislation from the government on what they plan on doing on this, is there likely to be any kind of debate or controversy around the issues that Simon's talking about, that there could be public interest in leaking information of these kinds of private chats? As journalists, we leak information that is intended privately all the time. Is there likely to be sort of a free speech, freedom of information kind of angle on this from some people, perhaps within the coalition?

The indication from the government so far is that it will be a criminal sanction on doxing. Now, what language they're using about the intent of the doxing is quite unclear, because there's been no statement from Mark Dreyfus so far about any shape of the law. So that's to be determined. The statement that we had from Mark Dreyfus said this no Australian should be targeted because of their race or religion. So, you know, in the sense of this particular case, there is a concern that people would target it because they were members of the Jewish community. Now that's again a threshold question that would have to be dealt with when they come to putting out a draft law. They're also talking about further sanctions against hate speech, which of course is a very vexed issue because it's, say, a decade ago, we had a big debate in federal parliament about whether section 18 C of the Racial Discrimination Act should be changed. Things have moved on since then, but there are still those tests about whether opposing hate speech turns into something like an anti-bigotry law. So you're not allowed to offend any religion, and also questions about racial discrimination. So it's not going to be easy. I haven't had so far a big amount of vocal concern from Members of Parliament about the shape of this law, but I think it's only a matter of time before that happens. There are some conservatives who already say be very cautious here because of the impact on free speech. The statement from the government is that they will make sure that this change to the Privacy Act does have an exemption for public interest journalism. So if there is a public interest in the disclosure of information, it would be protected by that exemption.

The indication from the government so far is that it will be a criminal sanction on doxing. Now, what language they're using about the intent of the doxing is quite unclear, because there's been no statement from Mark Dreyfus so far about any shape of the law. So that's to be determined. The statement that we had from Mark Dreyfus said this no Australian should be targeted because of their race or religion. So, you know, in the sense of this particular case, there is a concern that people would target it because they were members of the Jewish community. Now that's again a threshold question that would have to be dealt with when they come to putting out a draft law. They're also talking about further sanctions against hate speech, which of course is a very vexed issue because it's, say, a decade ago, we had a big debate in federal parliament about whether section 18 C of the Racial Discrimination Act should be changed. Things have moved on since then, but there are still those tests about whether opposing hate speech turns into something like an anti-bigotry law. So you're not allowed to offend any religion, and also questions about racial discrimination. So it's not going to be easy. I haven't had so far a big amount of vocal concern from Members of Parliament about the shape of this law, but I think it's only a matter of time before that happens. There are some conservatives who already say be very cautious here because of the impact on free speech. The statement from the government is that they will make sure that this change to the Privacy Act does have an exemption for public interest journalism. So if there is a public interest in the disclosure of information, it would be protected by that exemption.

Gentlemen, that was such an interesting chat. We really appreciate it. We love a little bit of creative tension too. So thank you, Simon, for joining us. I'll let you go now. Really appreciate.

Gentlemen, that was such an interesting chat. We really appreciate it. We love a little bit of creative tension too. So thank you, Simon, for joining us. I'll let you go now. Really appreciate.

It. Well, thank you very much for having me on. Thanks, Simon.

It. Well, thank you very much for having me on. Thanks, Simon.

Hi. Morning edition listeners, if you're looking for a series to binge over the break, I want to recommend Trial by Water. It's a podcast by some of my colleagues at The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. It's about a man, Robert Farquharson, who was convicted of murdering his three sons by driving them into a dam, and about the people who are now questioning that conviction. Trial by water is a compelling and informative podcast series that will make you question the way our justice system operates. So please take a listen and recommend it to your friends. Thanks.

Hi. Morning edition listeners, if you're looking for a series to binge over the break, I want to recommend Trial by Water. It's a podcast by some of my colleagues at The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. It's about a man, Robert Farquharson, who was convicted of murdering his three sons by driving them into a dam, and about the people who are now questioning that conviction. Trial by water is a compelling and informative podcast series that will make you question the way our justice system operates. So please take a listen and recommend it to your friends. Thanks.

David. I'm going to touch on the engagement because we can't miss it out. It's too it's too exciting.

David. I'm going to touch on the engagement because we can't miss it out. It's too it's too exciting.

Yeah, I think it's been a big week in sort of personal politics, from one extreme to the other, from sort of revenge and vengeance to lovers in the air.

Yeah, I think it's been a big week in sort of personal politics, from one extreme to the other, from sort of revenge and vengeance to lovers in the air.

Yes, David, this week a few very personal stories came out of Canberra, although they were very different to each other. First, I want to talk about the happy news, which is that the PM announced on Thursday he was engaged to his partner Jodie Haydon. How did this announcement go down in Canberra? I mean, you guys love love, right?

Yes, David, this week a few very personal stories came out of Canberra, although they were very different to each other. First, I want to talk about the happy news, which is that the PM announced on Thursday he was engaged to his partner Jodie Haydon. How did this announcement go down in Canberra? I mean, you guys love love, right?

I think it's fair to say that once that news happened, everybody knew that every other news item in federal Parliament would be secondary, no matter how important the tax debate or the IR debate is, or how important the questions are over the release of detainees from immigration detention. Everybody knew that this was the talking point.

I think it's fair to say that once that news happened, everybody knew that every other news item in federal Parliament would be secondary, no matter how important the tax debate or the IR debate is, or how important the questions are over the release of detainees from immigration detention. Everybody knew that this was the talking point.

Prime Minister.

Prime Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, this is indeed a great day here. It is a great day on so many levels, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, this is indeed a great day here. It is a great day on so many levels, Mr. Speaker.

And I expect it to be a discussion whether the Prime Minister is talking about policy or the treasurer is talking about, you know, labor force figures.

And I expect it to be a discussion whether the Prime Minister is talking about policy or the treasurer is talking about, you know, labor force figures.

I say this this is a day in which every Australian will get a tax cut. All 13.6 million.

I say this this is a day in which every Australian will get a tax cut. All 13.6 million.

It's been greeted fairly positively. How else would you greet this?

It's been greeted fairly positively. How else would you greet this?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, perhaps just on indulgence first. Can I extend to the Prime Minister and to Jody? I'm sure on behalf of the whole House, our congratulations and best wishes to you. We look forward to our version of the royal wedding sometime in the near future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, perhaps just on indulgence first. Can I extend to the Prime Minister and to Jody? I'm sure on behalf of the whole House, our congratulations and best wishes to you. We look forward to our version of the royal wedding sometime in the near future.

People have said to me, well, it's about time we had some good news coming out of Canberra.

People have said to me, well, it's about time we had some good news coming out of Canberra.

You know, need a best man. I'll be there throwing roses out in front of you, Prime Minister. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes to get an invite to the gala. Wedding.

You know, need a best man. I'll be there throwing roses out in front of you, Prime Minister. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes to get an invite to the gala. Wedding.

The proposal came on Valentine's Day, so the timing is logical. My first reaction was, really? Why would you propose in a parliamentary sitting week? But that just shows that I'm stuck here in Parliament after always seeing things that way.

The proposal came on Valentine's Day, so the timing is logical. My first reaction was, really? Why would you propose in a parliamentary sitting week? But that just shows that I'm stuck here in Parliament after always seeing things that way.

That is so, so unromantic of you, David.

That is so, so unromantic of you, David.

I forgot for a moment that it was Valentine's Day. So the proposal was made at the Lodge after Anthony Albanese and Jody Hayden had been at dinner at an Italian restaurant in Canberra.

I forgot for a moment that it was Valentine's Day. So the proposal was made at the Lodge after Anthony Albanese and Jody Hayden had been at dinner at an Italian restaurant in Canberra.

I won't make any comment on Mrs. Crowe's prospects on Valentine's Day if you forgot that it was on yesterday. Moving swiftly on, I don't want to be too cynical about this, I swear, because I know that the couple are very much in love. But this won't exactly hurt Albanese's political prospects, will it?

I won't make any comment on Mrs. Crowe's prospects on Valentine's Day if you forgot that it was on yesterday. Moving swiftly on, I don't want to be too cynical about this, I swear, because I know that the couple are very much in love. But this won't exactly hurt Albanese's political prospects, will it?

It's fair to say that in Parliament House, people think immediately. Oh, okay, so this will help in the Dunkley by election on March 2nd, right.

It's fair to say that in Parliament House, people think immediately. Oh, okay, so this will help in the Dunkley by election on March 2nd, right.

It's terrible. Plus the.

It's terrible. Plus the.

Tax cuts.

Tax cuts.

Yeah. Terrible. But true.

Yeah. Terrible. But true.

If you look at it in terms of the political cycle, it's probably good to get this news out now well before the next election. I've already asked the logical question is the wedding going to be before the election or in the next term of Parliament?

If you look at it in terms of the political cycle, it's probably good to get this news out now well before the next election. I've already asked the logical question is the wedding going to be before the election or in the next term of Parliament?

Exactly.

Exactly.

There's no answer on that. It's too early to ask about those kind of things, but it naturally becomes a subject of discussion. Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand chose not to get married while prime minister. The wedding happened once she left office. I think Boris Johnson got married while prime minister in the UK, but this is pretty new territory in Australia and we don't know quite how it's going to play out. But the initial reaction is certainly positive and positive for Anthony Albanese when he's facing that by election. Probably won't hurt before the next federal election.

There's no answer on that. It's too early to ask about those kind of things, but it naturally becomes a subject of discussion. Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand chose not to get married while prime minister. The wedding happened once she left office. I think Boris Johnson got married while prime minister in the UK, but this is pretty new territory in Australia and we don't know quite how it's going to play out. But the initial reaction is certainly positive and positive for Anthony Albanese when he's facing that by election. Probably won't hurt before the next federal election.

Indeed. I want to talk briefly now about Barnaby Joyce, who's had his personal life also in the news for very different reasons. He was filmed last week lying on his back on a footpath in Canberra, swearing into his phone in sort of an apparent drunken state, and images of that went viral.

Indeed. I want to talk briefly now about Barnaby Joyce, who's had his personal life also in the news for very different reasons. He was filmed last week lying on his back on a footpath in Canberra, swearing into his phone in sort of an apparent drunken state, and images of that went viral.

Barnaby, let's start with you. Morning. How are you?

Barnaby, let's start with you. Morning. How are you?

Oh, look, I'm.

Oh, look, I'm.

Obviously, you know, I made a big mistake. There's no excuse for it. There's a reason. And, you know, there's a very eventful walk home, wasn't it?

Obviously, you know, I made a big mistake. There's no excuse for it. There's a reason. And, you know, there's a very eventful walk home, wasn't it?

What was your reaction when you first learned of the incident, David?

What was your reaction when you first learned of the incident, David?

I thought it was really sad. I thought it was sad that nobody helped him up. And I thought it was sad that they thought that the way to treat somebody like that was to take photographs and then, I presume, sell them to the Daily Mail. I thought that was really not not something we want.

I thought it was really sad. I thought it was sad that nobody helped him up. And I thought it was sad that they thought that the way to treat somebody like that was to take photographs and then, I presume, sell them to the Daily Mail. I thought that was really not not something we want.

Are you kind of are you kind of angry that you were lying on the ground and someone filmed you and no one helped you?

Are you kind of are you kind of angry that you were lying on the ground and someone filmed you and no one helped you?

Well, that's a question for them. You know, uh, you know, for me, the Good Samaritan was the, uh, was the Indian taxi driver who pulled over as I was walking home and said, do you need a lift, mate? which I obviously did.

Well, that's a question for them. You know, uh, you know, for me, the Good Samaritan was the, uh, was the Indian taxi driver who pulled over as I was walking home and said, do you need a lift, mate? which I obviously did.

Barnaby Joyce is a polarizing figure. I think it's safe to say he's been so damaging to debate. In many ways, I think the nationals party room was much more unified and cohesive before he became leader, because he can be an antagonizing figure, but he's also a force to be reckoned with in politics. He's he's he's a very talented politician. He's not to be underestimated. So he's got multiple sides to the way he works. And one thing I've always found is that he fights his corner and he deals with you in a pretty straight way. So as a human being, I don't want to see him, you know, lying flat on the footpath with nobody helping him. He's had ups and downs in his personal life and his career. The primary issue is, is not just a political one, it's the personal one. In what way will people try to help him when he acknowledges that he's got some issues where he was taking some medication that contributed to what happened, if he needs help. One of One of the challenges in this building is that you can spend 20 years in the building, and you end up with a lot of colleagues and not enough friends. So some of the people around him may advise him to take a break, but he won't trust them in terms of what happens with the nationals. People had already said to me that Barnaby has said privately he doesn't entertain the idea of coming back as leader. People won't believe that. But what happened last week rules that out for good. He will still be a force in politics, I think, for some time.

Barnaby Joyce is a polarizing figure. I think it's safe to say he's been so damaging to debate. In many ways, I think the nationals party room was much more unified and cohesive before he became leader, because he can be an antagonizing figure, but he's also a force to be reckoned with in politics. He's he's he's a very talented politician. He's not to be underestimated. So he's got multiple sides to the way he works. And one thing I've always found is that he fights his corner and he deals with you in a pretty straight way. So as a human being, I don't want to see him, you know, lying flat on the footpath with nobody helping him. He's had ups and downs in his personal life and his career. The primary issue is, is not just a political one, it's the personal one. In what way will people try to help him when he acknowledges that he's got some issues where he was taking some medication that contributed to what happened, if he needs help. One of One of the challenges in this building is that you can spend 20 years in the building, and you end up with a lot of colleagues and not enough friends. So some of the people around him may advise him to take a break, but he won't trust them in terms of what happens with the nationals. People had already said to me that Barnaby has said privately he doesn't entertain the idea of coming back as leader. People won't believe that. But what happened last week rules that out for good. He will still be a force in politics, I think, for some time.

He's actually one of the most unpopular figures Australia has ever had. According to the Australian Election Study, which is done after every election by the Anu. But he's immensely popular in his own electorate. Is he a drag on the Liberal vote, and is he likely to be one at the next election if he stays in politics?

He's actually one of the most unpopular figures Australia has ever had. According to the Australian Election Study, which is done after every election by the Anu. But he's immensely popular in his own electorate. Is he a drag on the Liberal vote, and is he likely to be one at the next election if he stays in politics?

I think he's a drag on the coalition vote. I think he's a drag on the ability of the liberals, in particular, to reach out to the swinging voters they need in the major cities, primarily at the next election. That's always been a dynamic for the coalition or it has been in recent times. And we saw that in the nemesis series, where the return of Barnaby Joyce to the leadership, while Scott Morrison was prime minister, did not help Scott Morrison. We'll see that with the climate change debate, because we know that Barnaby in particular is campaigning heavily against wind turbines. I think that that issue is an issue that bites in regional communities, but they've got to be careful at the way that plays out in the cities where people do want a shift to renewable energy, or where there's a large proportion of voters who want to shift to renewable energies.

I think he's a drag on the coalition vote. I think he's a drag on the ability of the liberals, in particular, to reach out to the swinging voters they need in the major cities, primarily at the next election. That's always been a dynamic for the coalition or it has been in recent times. And we saw that in the nemesis series, where the return of Barnaby Joyce to the leadership, while Scott Morrison was prime minister, did not help Scott Morrison. We'll see that with the climate change debate, because we know that Barnaby in particular is campaigning heavily against wind turbines. I think that that issue is an issue that bites in regional communities, but they've got to be careful at the way that plays out in the cities where people do want a shift to renewable energy, or where there's a large proportion of voters who want to shift to renewable energies.

Yeah. You've mentioned nemesis there, the ABC docu series, which finished up this week. Just quickly, David, what do you think? If anything, the series taught us about how power works in Australia.

Yeah. You've mentioned nemesis there, the ABC docu series, which finished up this week. Just quickly, David, what do you think? If anything, the series taught us about how power works in Australia.

It highlighted what a lot of people instinctively know, just how personal it is and how no matter how often political leaders are talking about big policy ideas and their vision for the country and the way they want to change the country. At a base level, it can be very much about personal rivalries and personal enmities.

It highlighted what a lot of people instinctively know, just how personal it is and how no matter how often political leaders are talking about big policy ideas and their vision for the country and the way they want to change the country. At a base level, it can be very much about personal rivalries and personal enmities.

The French president is calling you a liar.

The French president is calling you a liar.

I got big shoulders. I'm sure President XI Jinping called me worst.

I got big shoulders. I'm sure President XI Jinping called me worst.

As I said at the time, I think Morrison sacrificed Australian security, sovereignty and honour all at once. It was a terrible it was the worst decision of his government, in my view.

As I said at the time, I think Morrison sacrificed Australian security, sovereignty and honour all at once. It was a terrible it was the worst decision of his government, in my view.

And that's what came through so strongly in nemesis. And that's why it was a sobering reminder about just what went wrong during the nine years of the coalition government, with three prime ministers, six defence ministers and so much upheaval over the years.

And that's what came through so strongly in nemesis. And that's why it was a sobering reminder about just what went wrong during the nine years of the coalition government, with three prime ministers, six defence ministers and so much upheaval over the years.

A lot of very emotional men there in Canberra. David, except for you, of course, you're sober, and.

A lot of very emotional men there in Canberra. David, except for you, of course, you're sober, and.

It would have been good if Julie Bishop had volunteered, had come forward. The fact that she didn't get enough votes in the end, is still one of those moments in Australian politics that people will think about for a long time.

It would have been good if Julie Bishop had volunteered, had come forward. The fact that she didn't get enough votes in the end, is still one of those moments in Australian politics that people will think about for a long time.

She was the great political survivor, the first woman in Liberal history to be elected deputy leader. She rose to foreign minister in his government and held on for the second coming of Malcolm. But in last year's coup, Julie Bishop's time at the top ran out.

She was the great political survivor, the first woman in Liberal history to be elected deputy leader. She rose to foreign minister in his government and held on for the second coming of Malcolm. But in last year's coup, Julie Bishop's time at the top ran out.

I actually approached Julie Bishop and I said, would you last week? And I said, would you talk about what happened there? And she replied and said, no, I'm not. I'm not going back to talk about those years I've moved on.

I actually approached Julie Bishop and I said, would you last week? And I said, would you talk about what happened there? And she replied and said, no, I'm not. I'm not going back to talk about those years I've moved on.

Her departure had been whispered in the wake of the coup, and her anger at the men in her party was signalled by her dazzling red shoes and her loud silence.

Her departure had been whispered in the wake of the coup, and her anger at the men in her party was signalled by her dazzling red shoes and her loud silence.

Can you see a point where the Liberal Party will bring itself to elect a popular female leader?

Can you see a point where the Liberal Party will bring itself to elect a popular female leader?

Well, when we find one, I'm sure they will.

Well, when we find one, I'm sure they will.

But that was a big moment because it's a what if moment. What if they had selected Julie Bishop in August 2018 instead?

But that was a big moment because it's a what if moment. What if they had selected Julie Bishop in August 2018 instead?

Yeah, that must have been a huge sort of personal and ego blow to her as well. David. Fascinating as always. Let's come back next week. Maybe we'll have more details of the wedding, then talk then.

Yeah, that must have been a huge sort of personal and ego blow to her as well. David. Fascinating as always. Let's come back next week. Maybe we'll have more details of the wedding, then talk then.

Thanks, Jackie.

Thanks, Jackie.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Dave McMillan. Our executive producer is Ruby Schwartz. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy this show and you want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley. This is Inside Politics from the morning edition. Thank you for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, with technical assistance by Dave McMillan. Our executive producer is Ruby Schwartz. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy this show and you want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley. This is Inside Politics from the morning edition. Thank you for listening.