Hi there. I'm Jacqueline Maley, the host of Inside Politics, The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald's weekly politics podcast. We're bringing you the best episodes of 2024 before we return in early February for the election year. In this special episode, which aired last month, respected columnist Niki Savva explains why Prime Minister Anthony Albanese should retire if he wins the next election. We're releasing this episode for you today on January 31st. Now, Niki, you had a column published in the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age on Thursday this week, which called for the Prime Minister to retire. For those who might not have read it, can you summarize your proposition for the Prime Minister?

Hi there. I'm Jacqueline Maley, the host of Inside Politics, The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald's weekly politics podcast. We're bringing you the best episodes of 2024 before we return in early February for the election year. In this special episode, which aired last month, respected columnist Niki Savva explains why Prime Minister Anthony Albanese should retire if he wins the next election. We're releasing this episode for you today on January 31st. Now, Niki, you had a column published in the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age on Thursday this week, which called for the Prime Minister to retire. For those who might not have read it, can you summarize your proposition for the Prime Minister?

Okay. Well, it's really kind of summing up where the government is at the moment. And I think the think the government is in dire straits, and if a number of things don't change, particularly the Prime Minister's performance, then I do believe that Dutton will become prime minister at the election next year. So I've begun the column in a fairly, I think, gentle and respectful way to say that if the Prime Minister is lucky enough to win this election, then he really should step aside and allow someone else to take over. There has been a lot of chatter inside the wider labor family about the Prime Minister's performance. There's, putting it mildly, a fair bit of anxiety about where labor is at and how the Prime Minister is handling himself. So it's really been prompted by that.

Okay. Well, it's really kind of summing up where the government is at the moment. And I think the think the government is in dire straits, and if a number of things don't change, particularly the Prime Minister's performance, then I do believe that Dutton will become prime minister at the election next year. So I've begun the column in a fairly, I think, gentle and respectful way to say that if the Prime Minister is lucky enough to win this election, then he really should step aside and allow someone else to take over. There has been a lot of chatter inside the wider labor family about the Prime Minister's performance. There's, putting it mildly, a fair bit of anxiety about where labor is at and how the Prime Minister is handling himself. So it's really been prompted by that.

Yeah. So I mean, Labour obviously has a long and rather dark history of not backing its leaders. And, you know, for having the revolving door of leaders and you're essentially advocating for the for the same sort of thing, aren't you? You're saying if the Prime Minister is lucky enough or successful enough to win the next election, even if it's a minority government that he leads, he needs to step aside and let fresh blood take over, because he's not going to be the 2 or 3 term prime minister that he's said that he wants to be.

Yeah. So I mean, Labour obviously has a long and rather dark history of not backing its leaders. And, you know, for having the revolving door of leaders and you're essentially advocating for the for the same sort of thing, aren't you? You're saying if the Prime Minister is lucky enough or successful enough to win the next election, even if it's a minority government that he leads, he needs to step aside and let fresh blood take over, because he's not going to be the 2 or 3 term prime minister that he's said that he wants to be.

Well, um, you know, there are some people who would say that he was lucky to get there in the first place. Right? I happen to think that he got there because it wasn't only an anti Morrison feeling. He did have the right strategy to get Labour into office. And I think if you if you get in so you win one election and then you win a second election Then really? That's pretty good going. That's two terms. That could be 4 or 5 years, which is actually longer than any other prime minister since John Howard. And that's pretty good going. And I don't think you should push your luck.

Well, um, you know, there are some people who would say that he was lucky to get there in the first place. Right? I happen to think that he got there because it wasn't only an anti Morrison feeling. He did have the right strategy to get Labour into office. And I think if you if you get in so you win one election and then you win a second election Then really? That's pretty good going. That's two terms. That could be 4 or 5 years, which is actually longer than any other prime minister since John Howard. And that's pretty good going. And I don't think you should push your luck.

Um, but you're essentially saying that you don't think Albanese is one of those sort of nation building, transformative prime ministers who do stay in the job for a long time and really change the nation and usher in great reforms? He's just not that guy.

Um, but you're essentially saying that you don't think Albanese is one of those sort of nation building, transformative prime ministers who do stay in the job for a long time and really change the nation and usher in great reforms? He's just not that guy.

Well, I think his performance in the past six months has contributed, to a large extent, to the dire straits that labor is in at the moment. I think it takes him too long to resolve issues, and when he does set about trying to fix them, he doesn't handle them properly. I think he began very well as prime minister, and they succeeded in destabilising relations with China, which I think was a very good thing. They got two surpluses in a row, but I think ever since the May budget, he's just seeming to me to be in la la land. Issues crop up all the time in government sometimes. You know, we have crises. Sometimes we have, you know, annoying little things that should be fixed in a day. There have been a lot of those very annoying little things that have taken weeks to resolve.

Well, I think his performance in the past six months has contributed, to a large extent, to the dire straits that labor is in at the moment. I think it takes him too long to resolve issues, and when he does set about trying to fix them, he doesn't handle them properly. I think he began very well as prime minister, and they succeeded in destabilising relations with China, which I think was a very good thing. They got two surpluses in a row, but I think ever since the May budget, he's just seeming to me to be in la la land. Issues crop up all the time in government sometimes. You know, we have crises. Sometimes we have, you know, annoying little things that should be fixed in a day. There have been a lot of those very annoying little things that have taken weeks to resolve.

Can you give an example of that kind of thing?

Can you give an example of that kind of thing?

Okay. There's there's a whole list of them. Right. But I'll mention one. And that was the questions on gender in Gender in the census, and the first that his colleagues knew about that being a problem or an issue was when they heard about it on Sky TV from Andrew Clennell.

Okay. There's there's a whole list of them. Right. But I'll mention one. And that was the questions on gender in Gender in the census, and the first that his colleagues knew about that being a problem or an issue was when they heard about it on Sky TV from Andrew Clennell.

And the government has elected not to change the census to include more questions around identity. Despite a push to do so, Sky news understands.

And the government has elected not to change the census to include more questions around identity. Despite a push to do so, Sky news understands.

It hit them. They were blindsided by that and then it dragged on for about a week.

It hit them. They were blindsided by that and then it dragged on for about a week.

Yeah, I mean, this is for people who don't remember that. It's basically changes to the census question, which brought in broader questions of gender identity. And I think sexuality than than we'd had in before. And Albanese sort of came in and cancelled the new questions that had been proposed and managed kind of to offend everybody in the process. You know, the LGBTQ plus lobby as well as the sort of Sky news crew. Isn't that right?

Yeah, I mean, this is for people who don't remember that. It's basically changes to the census question, which brought in broader questions of gender identity. And I think sexuality than than we'd had in before. And Albanese sort of came in and cancelled the new questions that had been proposed and managed kind of to offend everybody in the process. You know, the LGBTQ plus lobby as well as the sort of Sky news crew. Isn't that right?

Well, he did he offended everybody. Um, instead of, you know, he, he was obviously worried that it was going to blow up into an issue, but his behavior turned it into a much bigger issue. I think that dragged on for days and days and days.

Well, he did he offended everybody. Um, instead of, you know, he, he was obviously worried that it was going to blow up into an issue, but his behavior turned it into a much bigger issue. I think that dragged on for days and days and days.

This is the first time I've been asked about it. Uh, what there isn't going to be is whole holus bolus, massive changes to the census. Uh, because we think that it's been pretty effective in the past.

This is the first time I've been asked about it. Uh, what there isn't going to be is whole holus bolus, massive changes to the census. Uh, because we think that it's been pretty effective in the past.

It would have been possible to affix that in a single day. And and it wasn't fair. And so that distracted people from other, much more important things that the government might have been doing. It robbed them of an opportunity to sell some of their achievements. And that wasn't the only time that something like that happened. More recently, uh, we had his purchase of a $4 million Dollar beach house.

It would have been possible to affix that in a single day. And and it wasn't fair. And so that distracted people from other, much more important things that the government might have been doing. It robbed them of an opportunity to sell some of their achievements. And that wasn't the only time that something like that happened. More recently, uh, we had his purchase of a $4 million Dollar beach house.

Good morning. $4.3 million on a Copacabana mansion in New South Wales.

Good morning. $4.3 million on a Copacabana mansion in New South Wales.

But political rivals have hit out at the Prime Minister's purchase in the middle of a housing crisis.

But political rivals have hit out at the Prime Minister's purchase in the middle of a housing crisis.

As a prime minister, I earn a good income. I understand that, I understand that I've been fortunate, but I also know what it's like.

As a prime minister, I earn a good income. I understand that, I understand that I've been fortunate, but I also know what it's like.

That still reverberates, right? No one is begrudging him buying a beach house, but did he really have to do it now in the middle of a cost of living crisis? He didn't tell any of his colleagues about it. Once again, they were blindsided by it. Once again, there was no opportunity for the government because this story took off in the media to talk about other things, the issues that that voters really care about, like low cost of living. Yeah. Then it happened Again and again and again. You know, with other peripheral issues that chew up a lot of time and make it seem as if the last thing on his mind is other people's problems.

That still reverberates, right? No one is begrudging him buying a beach house, but did he really have to do it now in the middle of a cost of living crisis? He didn't tell any of his colleagues about it. Once again, they were blindsided by it. Once again, there was no opportunity for the government because this story took off in the media to talk about other things, the issues that that voters really care about, like low cost of living. Yeah. Then it happened Again and again and again. You know, with other peripheral issues that chew up a lot of time and make it seem as if the last thing on his mind is other people's problems.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That's been the most damaging thing for the government.

That's been the most damaging thing for the government.

The other example that you used in terms of questioning Albanese's judgment was his response to the Qantas flight upgrades, which was a few weeks ago now, where it was revealed or it was, you know, supposedly revealed in a book that he'd taken all these free upgrades that he hadn't declared. And as you say, that issue sort of bled on for the better part of a week. I mean, you write in your column that some of Albanese's colleagues have questioned his judgment. Is there any serious talk of dislodging him or of disloyalty towards him within the labor caucus?

The other example that you used in terms of questioning Albanese's judgment was his response to the Qantas flight upgrades, which was a few weeks ago now, where it was revealed or it was, you know, supposedly revealed in a book that he'd taken all these free upgrades that he hadn't declared. And as you say, that issue sort of bled on for the better part of a week. I mean, you write in your column that some of Albanese's colleagues have questioned his judgment. Is there any serious talk of dislodging him or of disloyalty towards him within the labor caucus?

Not really. I mean, people were very badly burned by what happened with Rudd-gillard-rudd, right? So there's really, um, no appetite to remove him before the election. And in any case, it's too late. He wouldn't go quietly. And, you know, it would just leave people thinking, ah, here we go again. But that doesn't mean that they're, you know, not concerned and not anxious about what's been happening. What they want is for him to get his head straight.

Not really. I mean, people were very badly burned by what happened with Rudd-gillard-rudd, right? So there's really, um, no appetite to remove him before the election. And in any case, it's too late. He wouldn't go quietly. And, you know, it would just leave people thinking, ah, here we go again. But that doesn't mean that they're, you know, not concerned and not anxious about what's been happening. What they want is for him to get his head straight.

Mhm.

Mhm.

You know like with the flight upgrades that was another thing that could have been fixed in a day or two, except according to what I was told. He thought it was a rubbish story. You know, that wasn't really worth responding to and that it would disappear in a couple of days. Well, it's been reverberating for weeks.

You know like with the flight upgrades that was another thing that could have been fixed in a day or two, except according to what I was told. He thought it was a rubbish story. You know, that wasn't really worth responding to and that it would disappear in a couple of days. Well, it's been reverberating for weeks.

Hi. Morning edition listeners. If you're looking for a series to binge over the break, I want to recommend Trial by Water. It's a podcast by some of my colleagues at The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. It's about a man, Robert Farquharson, who was convicted of murdering his three sons by driving them into a dam. And about the people who are now questioning that conviction. Trial by Water is a compelling and informative podcast series that will make you question the way our justice system operates. So please take a listen and recommend it to your friends. Thanks.

Hi. Morning edition listeners. If you're looking for a series to binge over the break, I want to recommend Trial by Water. It's a podcast by some of my colleagues at The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. It's about a man, Robert Farquharson, who was convicted of murdering his three sons by driving them into a dam. And about the people who are now questioning that conviction. Trial by Water is a compelling and informative podcast series that will make you question the way our justice system operates. So please take a listen and recommend it to your friends. Thanks.

I want to talk just quickly now about the opposition because you reserve some criticism for Peter Dutton. How do you think he's performed as Opposition leader?

I want to talk just quickly now about the opposition because you reserve some criticism for Peter Dutton. How do you think he's performed as Opposition leader?

Well, I think it's fair to say much better than a lot of people expected. I think he's performing very well as an opposition leader. I'm not, you know, saying that that will make him a brilliant prime minister. I mean, we we have seen this before with Tony Abbott. He was one of the very best opposition leaders and then was an absolute dud as prime minister. But at the moment, Dutton is running rings around Albanese.

Well, I think it's fair to say much better than a lot of people expected. I think he's performing very well as an opposition leader. I'm not, you know, saying that that will make him a brilliant prime minister. I mean, we we have seen this before with Tony Abbott. He was one of the very best opposition leaders and then was an absolute dud as prime minister. But at the moment, Dutton is running rings around Albanese.

It seems to me that the Prime minister just can't be trusted. I think his integrity is in question and I think he's.

It seems to me that the Prime minister just can't be trusted. I think his integrity is in question and I think he's.

Setting the agenda.

Setting the agenda.

But there's nothing that the Prime Minister said that's coherent, other than he picked the phone up to Alan Joyce to request an upgrade of airfares, which is something that I just don't think he can provide an explanation to it. I'm not aware of any.

But there's nothing that the Prime Minister said that's coherent, other than he picked the phone up to Alan Joyce to request an upgrade of airfares, which is something that I just don't think he can provide an explanation to it. I'm not aware of any.

And when it comes to questions about his own policies or his own behaviour, he's able to just swap them away and walk away.

And when it comes to questions about his own policies or his own behaviour, he's able to just swap them away and walk away.

Yeah. I mean, you make that comment in the column, which I thought was interesting that, yeah, he doesn't he doesn't get a lot of scrutiny. And he pops up very sort of randomly pops up here. He pops up there, but he doesn't often Submit to full length grillings in the media. I want to ask you now about the teal independents because, well, it was a bit timely this week because Paul Fletcher, who's the member for Bradfield, which is a seat here in New South Wales, was a safe Liberal seat, although it was under attack from a community independent at the last election. Paul Fletcher He gave a speech this week at the Sydney Institute, where he said that the teals were, quote, a green left con job funded by billionaires and that basically they were women who sort of dressed themselves up in liberal clothing, if you like, but a really green left wolves underneath. What did you make of that speech, Nicky?

Yeah. I mean, you make that comment in the column, which I thought was interesting that, yeah, he doesn't he doesn't get a lot of scrutiny. And he pops up very sort of randomly pops up here. He pops up there, but he doesn't often Submit to full length grillings in the media. I want to ask you now about the teal independents because, well, it was a bit timely this week because Paul Fletcher, who's the member for Bradfield, which is a seat here in New South Wales, was a safe Liberal seat, although it was under attack from a community independent at the last election. Paul Fletcher He gave a speech this week at the Sydney Institute, where he said that the teals were, quote, a green left con job funded by billionaires and that basically they were women who sort of dressed themselves up in liberal clothing, if you like, but a really green left wolves underneath. What did you make of that speech, Nicky?

Well, you know, on the one hand, I couldn't stop laughing because it's a cardinal rule, isn't it? The voters always get it right. But Paul Fletcher decided, you know, stroke of genius to go out there and call his constituents idiots, that they really didn't know what they were doing, that they were being taken in by these women who you've got to say are pretty smart, and that's why they won.

Well, you know, on the one hand, I couldn't stop laughing because it's a cardinal rule, isn't it? The voters always get it right. But Paul Fletcher decided, you know, stroke of genius to go out there and call his constituents idiots, that they really didn't know what they were doing, that they were being taken in by these women who you've got to say are pretty smart, and that's why they won.

The tears, then, are very much in the tradition of front groups established by left wing political operatives, which are designed to lure votes away from the Liberal Party by tricking voters about the bona fides. As with other groups, over time, many of the campaign volunteers are members of unions or the Labor Party or the Greens political party, and have simply put on a different t shirt for a few weeks.

The tears, then, are very much in the tradition of front groups established by left wing political operatives, which are designed to lure votes away from the Liberal Party by tricking voters about the bona fides. As with other groups, over time, many of the campaign volunteers are members of unions or the Labor Party or the Greens political party, and have simply put on a different t shirt for a few weeks.

That being said, and I think that doesn't augur very well for Mr. Fletcher's chances at the next election. He was in a lot of trouble anyway, but people knew exactly what they were doing at the last election. They were sending a message to the Liberal Party that they needed to do better. They're also sending the same message to labor, by the way. Um, you know, change or die. Yeah. And, uh, I think that message, um, is still there. And Mr. Fletcher showed that he didn't get it then, and he doesn't get it now.

That being said, and I think that doesn't augur very well for Mr. Fletcher's chances at the next election. He was in a lot of trouble anyway, but people knew exactly what they were doing at the last election. They were sending a message to the Liberal Party that they needed to do better. They're also sending the same message to labor, by the way. Um, you know, change or die. Yeah. And, uh, I think that message, um, is still there. And Mr. Fletcher showed that he didn't get it then, and he doesn't get it now.

Yeah, it might have been a sort of terrible act of self-sabotage on his part. We'll see, I suppose. I'm interested. Do you think that the teal independents have fulfilled their promise? They were elected with such high hopes of the 2020 election, as you and I have sort of said to each other off air, the election of all those teal crossbenchers was one of the greatest revolutions that we've seen in in our politics, I think for decades. For the first time, we had almost a sort of even third, third, third split between the two major parties and then crossbenchers and independents and Greens. You know, it seemed like a structural pivotal shift that was not going backwards anytime soon. Do you think that's the case? Do you agree with that? Do you think the teals are kind of here to stay?

Yeah, it might have been a sort of terrible act of self-sabotage on his part. We'll see, I suppose. I'm interested. Do you think that the teal independents have fulfilled their promise? They were elected with such high hopes of the 2020 election, as you and I have sort of said to each other off air, the election of all those teal crossbenchers was one of the greatest revolutions that we've seen in in our politics, I think for decades. For the first time, we had almost a sort of even third, third, third split between the two major parties and then crossbenchers and independents and Greens. You know, it seemed like a structural pivotal shift that was not going backwards anytime soon. Do you think that's the case? Do you agree with that? Do you think the teals are kind of here to stay?

Definitely. They're here to stay. They're going to be very hard to dislodge and they're going to expand and their influence will only keep increasing. I mean, I think they've all performed, uh, really very well in their own way. I think, you know, like I say, they're they're very smart. I find them all, uh, pretty impressive. And someone who knows them all said to me recently described them as alpha females. And I think that's pretty right. I think if we do end up with a minority government, that they will play a pivotal role in the next Parliament, and I think that will be a good thing.

Definitely. They're here to stay. They're going to be very hard to dislodge and they're going to expand and their influence will only keep increasing. I mean, I think they've all performed, uh, really very well in their own way. I think, you know, like I say, they're they're very smart. I find them all, uh, pretty impressive. And someone who knows them all said to me recently described them as alpha females. And I think that's pretty right. I think if we do end up with a minority government, that they will play a pivotal role in the next Parliament, and I think that will be a good thing.

You pretty much just answered my question, but I wanted to ask you whether or not Australians should be worried about the prospect of a minority government at the next election or after the next election that is reliant on negotiation with the crossbench. We've had one experience in recent times of a minority government and and it didn't end well, you could say. Nikki.

You pretty much just answered my question, but I wanted to ask you whether or not Australians should be worried about the prospect of a minority government at the next election or after the next election that is reliant on negotiation with the crossbench. We've had one experience in recent times of a minority government and and it didn't end well, you could say. Nikki.

Well, It didn't end well because of the tensions between the leadership, you know, with Gillard and Rudd. You know, that ran all the way through that term. But they did achieve quite a few things in those three years. We've got a carbon price, we've got the NDIS. And I've just finished reading quarterly essay by George Megalogenis, who's also a colleague of ours. It's an excellent essay called Minority Report, and he basically concludes by saying, we don't have anything to fear from it. Um, because, um, I think the sort of people that, you know, we do have in the Parliament now, uh, in, in those seats, uh, are conscientious. They have a reasonably good policies when it comes to, say, Allegra Spender with her tax reform policies and also on climate and and various other issues. And I think forcing the major parties to negotiate to actually get things done is probably a very good thing.

Well, It didn't end well because of the tensions between the leadership, you know, with Gillard and Rudd. You know, that ran all the way through that term. But they did achieve quite a few things in those three years. We've got a carbon price, we've got the NDIS. And I've just finished reading quarterly essay by George Megalogenis, who's also a colleague of ours. It's an excellent essay called Minority Report, and he basically concludes by saying, we don't have anything to fear from it. Um, because, um, I think the sort of people that, you know, we do have in the Parliament now, uh, in, in those seats, uh, are conscientious. They have a reasonably good policies when it comes to, say, Allegra Spender with her tax reform policies and also on climate and and various other issues. And I think forcing the major parties to negotiate to actually get things done is probably a very good thing.

I want to ask you, just because we ask everyone this, even though it's pure speculation, when do you think Albanese might call the next election, or when would it be sort of good for him to do so in terms of his own government's prospects?

I want to ask you, just because we ask everyone this, even though it's pure speculation, when do you think Albanese might call the next election, or when would it be sort of good for him to do so in terms of his own government's prospects?

Well, I get the impression that he's itching to call it right, and I think that would be a mistake. I think he's best to wait until May, which is when his term expires. He's best to in the interim. Like I say, get his head straight and stop making mistakes and start performing in the way people expect a prime minister to perform. And I think that would be his best chance of staying in office.

Well, I get the impression that he's itching to call it right, and I think that would be a mistake. I think he's best to wait until May, which is when his term expires. He's best to in the interim. Like I say, get his head straight and stop making mistakes and start performing in the way people expect a prime minister to perform. And I think that would be his best chance of staying in office.

Yeah, Nicky, that has been such an interesting chat, and it's always so good to have you on the podcast. We really appreciate you making time. If people haven't read Nicky's column from this week, you can read it on the age of the Sydney Morning Herald website. It's a real cracker.

Yeah, Nicky, that has been such an interesting chat, and it's always so good to have you on the podcast. We really appreciate you making time. If people haven't read Nicky's column from this week, you can read it on the age of the Sydney Morning Herald website. It's a real cracker.

Thank you Jacqueline.

Thank you Jacqueline.

Today's episode of Inside Politics was produced by Chee Wong with technical assistance by Belen Sanchez. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. Inside politics is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy this show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley, this is inside politics. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of Inside Politics was produced by Chee Wong with technical assistance by Belen Sanchez. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. Inside politics is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy this show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley, this is inside politics. Thanks for listening.