From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday, April 22nd. Australians love a battler. Images of shearers, Anzacs and gold diggers are deeply entrenched in our history. Politicians, of course, know that too. Why else do we see them in hard hats and high visibility vests? But a couple of moments in this election campaign have really hit a nerve. And they came from a blue blood Liberal candidate in Melbourne.

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday, April 22nd. Australians love a battler. Images of shearers, Anzacs and gold diggers are deeply entrenched in our history. Politicians, of course, know that too. Why else do we see them in hard hats and high visibility vests? But a couple of moments in this election campaign have really hit a nerve. And they came from a blue blood Liberal candidate in Melbourne.

I know my rent has gone up significantly. I'm a renter.

I know my rent has gone up significantly. I'm a renter.

And the opposition leader's son. In a press conference in Brisbane.

And the opposition leader's son. In a press conference in Brisbane.

He was waving like mad. But it doesn't look like we'll get there today.

He was waving like mad. But it doesn't look like we'll get there today.

Frank Bongiorno, professor of history at the Australian National University, on what happens when members of the political class play down their wealth in order to commune with the common people. So, Frank, welcome to the Morning Edition. Now, we've had two high profile examples of, you know, quite prominent Australians, perhaps crying poor or poorer than they are over the last couple of weeks when they really are, you know, not so poor. So let's just start off with Liberal candidate Amelia Hammer. Who is she and what did she say?

Frank Bongiorno, professor of history at the Australian National University, on what happens when members of the political class play down their wealth in order to commune with the common people. So, Frank, welcome to the Morning Edition. Now, we've had two high profile examples of, you know, quite prominent Australians, perhaps crying poor or poorer than they are over the last couple of weeks when they really are, you know, not so poor. So let's just start off with Liberal candidate Amelia Hammer. Who is she and what did she say?

Um, well, Amelia Hammer is a candidate, uh, at the current election, Liberal candidate for Kooyong, which, of course, is traditionally a very blue ribbon Liberal seat. It was held by Robert Menzies, but was won by Monique Ryan at the last election as an independent. Um, she also Amelia Hammer that is also comes from a pretty well established Melbourne Liberal Party family, I guess. Uh, so her great uncle, I think it is, was, uh, Sir Rupert Hamer or Dick hammer, as he was better known. And, uh, yes, I'm old enough to remember when he was Premier, which was in the 1970s. But yeah, that's the background she comes from. And yeah, is is the candidate for Kooyong at this election.

Um, well, Amelia Hammer is a candidate, uh, at the current election, Liberal candidate for Kooyong, which, of course, is traditionally a very blue ribbon Liberal seat. It was held by Robert Menzies, but was won by Monique Ryan at the last election as an independent. Um, she also Amelia Hammer that is also comes from a pretty well established Melbourne Liberal Party family, I guess. Uh, so her great uncle, I think it is, was, uh, Sir Rupert Hamer or Dick hammer, as he was better known. And, uh, yes, I'm old enough to remember when he was Premier, which was in the 1970s. But yeah, that's the background she comes from. And yeah, is is the candidate for Kooyong at this election.

And the issue is, I mean, she's 31. She's incredibly accomplished in her own right. You know, she went to Oxford, I understand, but I believe she put herself forward as a renter sort of obviously, you know, the struggle to rent now obviously is a massive issue for young Australians. And she sort of put herself in that lot and said, I'm a renter. But then it turns out that that's not the full case. So what was the what's the full story?

And the issue is, I mean, she's 31. She's incredibly accomplished in her own right. You know, she went to Oxford, I understand, but I believe she put herself forward as a renter sort of obviously, you know, the struggle to rent now obviously is a massive issue for young Australians. And she sort of put herself in that lot and said, I'm a renter. But then it turns out that that's not the full case. So what was the what's the full story?

Yeah. So she is a renter, Samantha. She is undoubtedly a renter, or at least it seems she is.

Yeah. So she is a renter, Samantha. She is undoubtedly a renter, or at least it seems she is.

Well, Amelia Homer joins us from Hawthorn in Victoria.

Well, Amelia Homer joins us from Hawthorn in Victoria.

People in this community are actually really struggling with the cost of living. They're struggling to pay the mortgage. They're struggling to pay their rent. I know my rent has gone up significantly. I'm a renter. Uh, and.

People in this community are actually really struggling with the cost of living. They're struggling to pay the mortgage. They're struggling to pay their rent. I know my rent has gone up significantly. I'm a renter. Uh, and.

But she also appears to be an owner. And it turned out she owned properties, I think, in Canberra and in London, of all places. Now, I've rented in London, and I have to confess that the thought of buying didn't even cross my mind. And I was in my 40s.

But she also appears to be an owner. And it turned out she owned properties, I think, in Canberra and in London, of all places. Now, I've rented in London, and I have to confess that the thought of buying didn't even cross my mind. And I was in my 40s.

The elusive Liberal candidate for Kooyong has broken her silence. I think the reality is people, people.

The elusive Liberal candidate for Kooyong has broken her silence. I think the reality is people, people.

Acknowledge you can be both. You can be renting and you can also own a property. We also talk about the struggles of being a landlord in the state of Victoria at the moment, because that is really, really hard.

Acknowledge you can be both. You can be renting and you can also own a property. We also talk about the struggles of being a landlord in the state of Victoria at the moment, because that is really, really hard.

The problem with it is that it feeds into, I guess, the most powerful stereotype we have of politicians, that they don't tell the truth or they don't tell the full truth. And I suspect that, you know, in this case, if she hadn't presented herself as a renter, if she simply hadn't have made an issue of, um, you know, her ownership of properties and all the rest of it, that, um, no one would have noticed, or if they had have noticed, it wouldn't have been damaging in any ways.

The problem with it is that it feeds into, I guess, the most powerful stereotype we have of politicians, that they don't tell the truth or they don't tell the full truth. And I suspect that, you know, in this case, if she hadn't presented herself as a renter, if she simply hadn't have made an issue of, um, you know, her ownership of properties and all the rest of it, that, um, no one would have noticed, or if they had have noticed, it wouldn't have been damaging in any ways.

Leah Hamer cosplaying as your average hard working Australian who's a renter?

Leah Hamer cosplaying as your average hard working Australian who's a renter?

And it emerged yesterday that actually Amelia Hammer, while she does rent in the seat of Kooyong, she owns an apartment in Canberra and a flat in London.

And it emerged yesterday that actually Amelia Hammer, while she does rent in the seat of Kooyong, she owns an apartment in Canberra and a flat in London.

Trying to pretend to be something that you are not.

Trying to pretend to be something that you are not.

She is a renter in Kooyong. She is young. And the idea that anybody would try and discredit her because of something that her grandparents have done, give me a break.

She is a renter in Kooyong. She is young. And the idea that anybody would try and discredit her because of something that her grandparents have done, give me a break.

And this brings us to the next example. Because then over the last week, we've had Harry Dutton. He is the 20 year old son of opposition leader Peter Dutton. He was brought out on the campaign trail. So why was he brought out and what did he say that you know, people really have become quite incensed over.

And this brings us to the next example. Because then over the last week, we've had Harry Dutton. He is the 20 year old son of opposition leader Peter Dutton. He was brought out on the campaign trail. So why was he brought out and what did he say that you know, people really have become quite incensed over.

Yes. Well, he's a 20 year old apprentice, and he was sort of brought into the Liberal campaign to talk about how difficult it is for young people to break into the property market.

Yes. Well, he's a 20 year old apprentice, and he was sort of brought into the Liberal campaign to talk about how difficult it is for young people to break into the property market.

I am saving up for a house and so is my sister, Bec. back, um, and a lot of my mates. But as you've probably heard, it's almost impossible to get in, um, in the current state. So. I mean, we're saving like, mad, but it doesn't look like we'll get there.

I am saving up for a house and so is my sister, Bec. back, um, and a lot of my mates. But as you've probably heard, it's almost impossible to get in, um, in the current state. So. I mean, we're saving like, mad, but it doesn't look like we'll get there.

Um, it is undoubtedly difficult for young people to break into the property market, but yeah. Look, inevitably this raised the question about, I guess, the wealth of the Dutton family, really, didn't it? The obvious question that people were always going to ask and that they did ask was, well, are you going to help him into the property market? This notion of the bank of Mum and dad.

Um, it is undoubtedly difficult for young people to break into the property market, but yeah. Look, inevitably this raised the question about, I guess, the wealth of the Dutton family, really, didn't it? The obvious question that people were always going to ask and that they did ask was, well, are you going to help him into the property market? This notion of the bank of Mum and dad.

You're doing pretty well yourself. Why won't you support him a bit and give him a bit of help with getting his house? I haven't finished the excellent points. I was making the next point as to why people should vote Liberal is that we can manage the economy.

You're doing pretty well yourself. Why won't you support him a bit and give him a bit of help with getting his house? I haven't finished the excellent points. I was making the next point as to why people should vote Liberal is that we can manage the economy.

And of course the answer. In the end, although there was a bit of, uh, sort of toing and froing in the meantime. But the answer in the end, I think, was that, yes, he would be assisting. And I think that was probably a bad look because it emphasized the fact that Peter Dutton, the Duttons are in a much more privileged position than most people. And and so, again, that attempt to identify too closely with the circumstances and and aspirations of those who you're seeking support from probably backfired.

And of course the answer. In the end, although there was a bit of, uh, sort of toing and froing in the meantime. But the answer in the end, I think, was that, yes, he would be assisting. And I think that was probably a bad look because it emphasized the fact that Peter Dutton, the Duttons are in a much more privileged position than most people. And and so, again, that attempt to identify too closely with the circumstances and and aspirations of those who you're seeking support from probably backfired.

And one thing I really wanted to ask you about was the fact that this is far from the first time that prominent Australians have tried to downplay their wealth. I mean, we actually have something of a history with this. So can you tell me about a time when this really was, you know, in particular a well rehearsed and accepted social tactic? You know, let's play this down.

And one thing I really wanted to ask you about was the fact that this is far from the first time that prominent Australians have tried to downplay their wealth. I mean, we actually have something of a history with this. So can you tell me about a time when this really was, you know, in particular a well rehearsed and accepted social tactic? You know, let's play this down.

Yeah. I mean, I think particularly in the middle decades of the 20th century, you know, in the wake of the depression of the 1930s and the war, the Second World War, indeed, the First World War two, all of which had been, um, you know, experiences of austerity for many Australians as well as suffering, of course, I think political leaders did tend to play down their wealth. I mean, the one big exception we have is in the 1920s, and it was Stanley Melbourne Bruce who was the boss, effectively, of a family importing firm and who was immensely rich. You know, he did a Cambridge degree, ran the family business from from London for a time, was actually in the British Army in the First World War, had a chauffeur driven Rolls-Royce in the 1920s, wore spats which people used to ridicule a bit came to the Lodge and in fact he was the first inhabitant of the lodge in Canberra in 1927. I think he had his own butler as well. I mean, it was all pretty extraordinary, but look, people voted for him. So even back then people were kind of okay with this. Certainly the prime ministers you get after that, I think did cultivate a more modest image. There was a succession of them, uh, James Scullin, Joseph Lyons, John Curtin and Ben Chifley during and after the Second World War, even though in Ben Chifley's case he wasn't short of a quid either. He He was part owner of a newspaper. He was wealthy enough to give money away as donations. Even he as a labor leader, was pretty well off. But he really did cultivate this image of, you know, austerity. And when even Robert Menzies came to his long prime ministership in 1949, he was very careful, um, you know, not to present as someone who was immensely wealthy, largely because he wasn't immensely wealthy. I mean, he was certainly very solidly middle class. But there was a sense with Menzies, and he lived in the lodge with his wife and his adult daughter for some of the time that, you know, they were kind of like ordinary Australians. Um, there's a wonderful anecdote from his daughter, Heather Henderson, who lived there in the early 50s where they'd, you know, they'd recycle cream cheese jars as, as glasses, as tumblers, as many of us, um, even a little bit younger, did, you know, because they always, you know, Vegemite and cream cheese jars always seemed too good to throw away. And so there was a kind of sense that they were, you know, first suburbanites in a suburban nation. And so I think that cultivation of not an austere image, but a modest image was very important in a lot of 20th century politics.

Yeah. I mean, I think particularly in the middle decades of the 20th century, you know, in the wake of the depression of the 1930s and the war, the Second World War, indeed, the First World War two, all of which had been, um, you know, experiences of austerity for many Australians as well as suffering, of course, I think political leaders did tend to play down their wealth. I mean, the one big exception we have is in the 1920s, and it was Stanley Melbourne Bruce who was the boss, effectively, of a family importing firm and who was immensely rich. You know, he did a Cambridge degree, ran the family business from from London for a time, was actually in the British Army in the First World War, had a chauffeur driven Rolls-Royce in the 1920s, wore spats which people used to ridicule a bit came to the Lodge and in fact he was the first inhabitant of the lodge in Canberra in 1927. I think he had his own butler as well. I mean, it was all pretty extraordinary, but look, people voted for him. So even back then people were kind of okay with this. Certainly the prime ministers you get after that, I think did cultivate a more modest image. There was a succession of them, uh, James Scullin, Joseph Lyons, John Curtin and Ben Chifley during and after the Second World War, even though in Ben Chifley's case he wasn't short of a quid either. He He was part owner of a newspaper. He was wealthy enough to give money away as donations. Even he as a labor leader, was pretty well off. But he really did cultivate this image of, you know, austerity. And when even Robert Menzies came to his long prime ministership in 1949, he was very careful, um, you know, not to present as someone who was immensely wealthy, largely because he wasn't immensely wealthy. I mean, he was certainly very solidly middle class. But there was a sense with Menzies, and he lived in the lodge with his wife and his adult daughter for some of the time that, you know, they were kind of like ordinary Australians. Um, there's a wonderful anecdote from his daughter, Heather Henderson, who lived there in the early 50s where they'd, you know, they'd recycle cream cheese jars as, as glasses, as tumblers, as many of us, um, even a little bit younger, did, you know, because they always, you know, Vegemite and cream cheese jars always seemed too good to throw away. And so there was a kind of sense that they were, you know, first suburbanites in a suburban nation. And so I think that cultivation of not an austere image, but a modest image was very important in a lot of 20th century politics.

Is this distinct to Australian politicians? You know, like, have American politicians similarly? Sort of, you know, you use this incredible phrase when we spoke right before recording and you said that there's this tradition among prominent Australians to almost, quote, invite people to politely overlook that they're actually filthy rich, I loved that. Is that distinctly Australian or does that exist in other countries as well?

Is this distinct to Australian politicians? You know, like, have American politicians similarly? Sort of, you know, you use this incredible phrase when we spoke right before recording and you said that there's this tradition among prominent Australians to almost, quote, invite people to politely overlook that they're actually filthy rich, I loved that. Is that distinctly Australian or does that exist in other countries as well?

Oh no, you do certainly get it in other countries. I think there seems to be a Australian American politics where people are quite comfortable with political leaders flaunting wealth. If the Trump phenomenon, you know, is anything to go by. But, you know, it is worth thinking about some other examples from earlier in, you know, in the 20th century. Jimmy Carter presented a very austere, Homely image as a kind of ordinary peanut farmer, even though he was a very highly educated one. It's kind of there is, you know, those two strains there in in the American system. What we're talking about here is not really a condition of Australian politics. It's a condition of mass democratic politics. And I think in Australia we are prepared to tolerate significant levels of economic inequality. But we're very intolerant of people really drawing attention to it and pretending that that makes them somehow socially or morally better than other people. I think we're we're hostile to the idea of class in Australia, and that sort of sometimes deceives us into the idea that we're a classless society. We're not classless, but we certainly don't like the idea of of class. And I think back to Tony Abbott's revival of knighthoods, for instance.

Oh no, you do certainly get it in other countries. I think there seems to be a Australian American politics where people are quite comfortable with political leaders flaunting wealth. If the Trump phenomenon, you know, is anything to go by. But, you know, it is worth thinking about some other examples from earlier in, you know, in the 20th century. Jimmy Carter presented a very austere, Homely image as a kind of ordinary peanut farmer, even though he was a very highly educated one. It's kind of there is, you know, those two strains there in in the American system. What we're talking about here is not really a condition of Australian politics. It's a condition of mass democratic politics. And I think in Australia we are prepared to tolerate significant levels of economic inequality. But we're very intolerant of people really drawing attention to it and pretending that that makes them somehow socially or morally better than other people. I think we're we're hostile to the idea of class in Australia, and that sort of sometimes deceives us into the idea that we're a classless society. We're not classless, but we certainly don't like the idea of of class. And I think back to Tony Abbott's revival of knighthoods, for instance.

The news came over the radio that we'd made Prince Philip a knight on Australia Day, and I won't say what I said because it was on television. But I thought, this is going to be a really bad day.

The news came over the radio that we'd made Prince Philip a knight on Australia Day, and I won't say what I said because it was on television. But I thought, this is going to be a really bad day.

One of the problems with that is that it smacked of this idea of people, you know, calling themselves sir, which we'd been comfortable with perhaps in an earlier, more British period and more hierarchical period.

One of the problems with that is that it smacked of this idea of people, you know, calling themselves sir, which we'd been comfortable with perhaps in an earlier, more British period and more hierarchical period.

I'm really pleased that the Queen has seen fit to award knighthoods in the Order of Australia to Prince Philip.

I'm really pleased that the Queen has seen fit to award knighthoods in the Order of Australia to Prince Philip.

I think that was a universal shock at Prince Philip. Oh, God.

I think that was a universal shock at Prince Philip. Oh, God.

I mean, I think it's safe to say that Tony Abbott was actually pilloried for that. I mean, wouldn't you say that that was sort of instrumental in his political downfall, ultimately?

I mean, I think it's safe to say that Tony Abbott was actually pilloried for that. I mean, wouldn't you say that that was sort of instrumental in his political downfall, ultimately?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's quite clear from all the accounts that it helped to mobilise opposition with within his own party to his leadership because it spoke to a lack of judgement, a lack of the common touch, a sure touch. Um, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's quite clear from all the accounts that it helped to mobilise opposition with within his own party to his leadership because it spoke to a lack of judgement, a lack of the common touch, a sure touch. Um, yeah.

Well, I wanted to ask you this because.

Well, I wanted to ask you this because.

Before we started recording, you said that there is something particularly Australian, at least in settler culture here, where there's been an emphasis on the common people. You know, the idea of being in touch with the common people. So tell me about that. You know, why do we have that here?

Before we started recording, you said that there is something particularly Australian, at least in settler culture here, where there's been an emphasis on the common people. You know, the idea of being in touch with the common people. So tell me about that. You know, why do we have that here?

Yeah, I guess the images that we've most cherished, um, the kinds of characters or types, if you like, that we've tended to turn into national legends have often been, you know, of the common people, in fact, often of the common man, because there's a very strong sort of sexist bias in this, too. We've tended to uphold men more than women as, as, you know, kind of national types. But, you know, you can go right back to, um, the convict era, um, the shearer, the worker in the pastoral industry and the sheep industry. The shearer was very important as a national type, the gold digger, um, going right through to the, the Anzac, I think these were all kinds of images that we've tended to, to uphold. And yeah, they do validate manual labor and they elevate manual labor. And of course we've had the phenomenon haven't we, of the tradie treaty in in recent years. And politicians always, always dressing themselves up in hard helmets and hi vis gear again to kind of perform this identification with ordinary working people, even though we know that so many Australian employees today would never go anywhere near either a hard hat or a hi vis, but politicians seem to want to be pictured in that sort of garb. And I think that, again, has a lot to do with the very long standing images of, you know, what it means to be Australian and what it means to be most authentically Australian. And I think that's where that comes from.

Yeah, I guess the images that we've most cherished, um, the kinds of characters or types, if you like, that we've tended to turn into national legends have often been, you know, of the common people, in fact, often of the common man, because there's a very strong sort of sexist bias in this, too. We've tended to uphold men more than women as, as, you know, kind of national types. But, you know, you can go right back to, um, the convict era, um, the shearer, the worker in the pastoral industry and the sheep industry. The shearer was very important as a national type, the gold digger, um, going right through to the, the Anzac, I think these were all kinds of images that we've tended to, to uphold. And yeah, they do validate manual labor and they elevate manual labor. And of course we've had the phenomenon haven't we, of the tradie treaty in in recent years. And politicians always, always dressing themselves up in hard helmets and hi vis gear again to kind of perform this identification with ordinary working people, even though we know that so many Australian employees today would never go anywhere near either a hard hat or a hi vis, but politicians seem to want to be pictured in that sort of garb. And I think that, again, has a lot to do with the very long standing images of, you know, what it means to be Australian and what it means to be most authentically Australian. And I think that's where that comes from.

And it's not just politicians, though, isn't it? Because I know that there was a spike in spoofs on social media mocking Melburnians like in their 20s for wearing really beat up clothing?

And it's not just politicians, though, isn't it? Because I know that there was a spike in spoofs on social media mocking Melburnians like in their 20s for wearing really beat up clothing?

No, that's a prize for looking cool. A government incentive. Where do you get cool clothes like that? Melbourne.

No, that's a prize for looking cool. A government incentive. Where do you get cool clothes like that? Melbourne.

And sort of taking on the aesthetics of poverty almost, you know, because it was fashionable.

And sort of taking on the aesthetics of poverty almost, you know, because it was fashionable.

Literally a maccas bag. It's Balenciaga.

Literally a maccas bag. It's Balenciaga.

And I just wanted to find out. Is this something you've ever noticed at the Anu where you teach? You know, because I know this is definitely a fad that comes and goes for sure.

And I just wanted to find out. Is this something you've ever noticed at the Anu where you teach? You know, because I know this is definitely a fad that comes and goes for sure.

So that's poverty chic or something? Yeah. Um, look, I mean, I'm sure my students would tell me that they genuinely don't have any money and need to to go to op shops, and it's probably true. I mean, I guess students are very often, aren't they, in a sort of liminal, in-between place where they might come from middle class backgrounds and their parents might be pretty well off. But once they get to university, they often don't have a lot of disposable income. And so, you know, there is genuine student poverty. Of course, many students are are under a lot of pressure. But I think, Samantha, that also goes back to, you know, a very old certainly back to the 19th century notion of Bohemia, because really that's in many, in many respects what bohemianism and Bohemia was about. It was about the the sort of impoverished artist or writer, um, who was essentially, you know, making a great virtue of the fact that they were impoverished as a part of a kind of image of what it meant to be an artist and what it meant to be a writer, and also what it meant, of course, to be a student.

So that's poverty chic or something? Yeah. Um, look, I mean, I'm sure my students would tell me that they genuinely don't have any money and need to to go to op shops, and it's probably true. I mean, I guess students are very often, aren't they, in a sort of liminal, in-between place where they might come from middle class backgrounds and their parents might be pretty well off. But once they get to university, they often don't have a lot of disposable income. And so, you know, there is genuine student poverty. Of course, many students are are under a lot of pressure. But I think, Samantha, that also goes back to, you know, a very old certainly back to the 19th century notion of Bohemia, because really that's in many, in many respects what bohemianism and Bohemia was about. It was about the the sort of impoverished artist or writer, um, who was essentially, you know, making a great virtue of the fact that they were impoverished as a part of a kind of image of what it meant to be an artist and what it meant to be a writer, and also what it meant, of course, to be a student.

And I guess just just to wrap up, Frank, I wanted to bring it back to Amelia Hammer and Harry Dutton because I'm wondering if, you know, presenting themselves as being among those who are struggling to make rent or scrounging up the money for a house deposit? Is it because really, people are just now sick of the facade that we don't live in a classless society when we obviously do?

And I guess just just to wrap up, Frank, I wanted to bring it back to Amelia Hammer and Harry Dutton because I'm wondering if, you know, presenting themselves as being among those who are struggling to make rent or scrounging up the money for a house deposit? Is it because really, people are just now sick of the facade that we don't live in a classless society when we obviously do?

Yeah. And the big issue is wealth more than income, isn't it? Because, you know, what we've been seeing is massive transfers of wealth across generations, which are perpetuating intergenerational injustices. So if you're lucky enough to have parents who either give you assistance or leave you money in a will, you often turn out to be very well off. If you're not in that situation, uh, you're at the bottom of the heap often, and I think that that sense of intergenerational, uh, inequality, lack of equity is certainly it's become a really major feature of our politics. It's undoubtedly shaping, um, voting patterns. I mean, we know from all the research that young people are really leaning left now. I think it is related to the very real sense that Harry Dutton was, you know, drawing attention to, I mean, he was dealing with something that's real enough and that is that many younger people do feel locked out of a whole range of things that their parents, and certainly their grandparents were perhaps able to take more for granted. And, you know, I think that that is producing a different kind of politics and perhaps less patience with some of these ideas that we can just tolerate very large wealth inequalities. I like that the notion of the late historian John Hirst, uh, who talked about a notion of egalitarianism, of manners where everyone could kind of relate to one another as equals, as as as citizens, if you like. And I think that has been quite a powerful concept in Australian history that, um, you know, you can have wealth inequalities, but the people should be able to meet one another in social settings and in the civic sphere as more or less as equals rather than through modes of deference, which I guess we tend to associate with Britain in particular. I mean, I love the story told by the journalist, late journalist Phillip Knightley, wonderful Australian expatriate, very famous Australian expatriate journalist. When he was very young, he was hired by Keith Murdoch, um, Rupert's father, um, as a kind of assistant for a time, and he was waiting outside a big city hotel for Murdoch to come and pick him up. And he was looking at all his posh cars, um, you know, coming into the hotel and trying to guess what kind of car Keith Murdoch would turn up in. And what happened was that Keith Murdoch turned up with Rupert Murdoch, his son, driving a dirty old ute, and they sort of piled Phillip Knightley into the dirty old Ute while they drove off. And Knightley reflected in telling this story, it's the kind of thing that would be unthinkable in Britain, where you don't have that kind of egalitarianism of manners. But in an Australian context, for a Knight of the realm, as Sir Keith was and, you know, a wealthy, upper class family, really in an Australian context, to do that was nothing out of the ordinary. And that's really what Hirst meant by an egalitarianism of manners. And I think it still sits there as a kind of model in our civic and our political life.

Yeah. And the big issue is wealth more than income, isn't it? Because, you know, what we've been seeing is massive transfers of wealth across generations, which are perpetuating intergenerational injustices. So if you're lucky enough to have parents who either give you assistance or leave you money in a will, you often turn out to be very well off. If you're not in that situation, uh, you're at the bottom of the heap often, and I think that that sense of intergenerational, uh, inequality, lack of equity is certainly it's become a really major feature of our politics. It's undoubtedly shaping, um, voting patterns. I mean, we know from all the research that young people are really leaning left now. I think it is related to the very real sense that Harry Dutton was, you know, drawing attention to, I mean, he was dealing with something that's real enough and that is that many younger people do feel locked out of a whole range of things that their parents, and certainly their grandparents were perhaps able to take more for granted. And, you know, I think that that is producing a different kind of politics and perhaps less patience with some of these ideas that we can just tolerate very large wealth inequalities. I like that the notion of the late historian John Hirst, uh, who talked about a notion of egalitarianism, of manners where everyone could kind of relate to one another as equals, as as as citizens, if you like. And I think that has been quite a powerful concept in Australian history that, um, you know, you can have wealth inequalities, but the people should be able to meet one another in social settings and in the civic sphere as more or less as equals rather than through modes of deference, which I guess we tend to associate with Britain in particular. I mean, I love the story told by the journalist, late journalist Phillip Knightley, wonderful Australian expatriate, very famous Australian expatriate journalist. When he was very young, he was hired by Keith Murdoch, um, Rupert's father, um, as a kind of assistant for a time, and he was waiting outside a big city hotel for Murdoch to come and pick him up. And he was looking at all his posh cars, um, you know, coming into the hotel and trying to guess what kind of car Keith Murdoch would turn up in. And what happened was that Keith Murdoch turned up with Rupert Murdoch, his son, driving a dirty old ute, and they sort of piled Phillip Knightley into the dirty old Ute while they drove off. And Knightley reflected in telling this story, it's the kind of thing that would be unthinkable in Britain, where you don't have that kind of egalitarianism of manners. But in an Australian context, for a Knight of the realm, as Sir Keith was and, you know, a wealthy, upper class family, really in an Australian context, to do that was nothing out of the ordinary. And that's really what Hirst meant by an egalitarianism of manners. And I think it still sits there as a kind of model in our civic and our political life.

So it's okay to be wealthy, as long as you don't pretend that you're better than somebody else or you don't lie about it, essentially. Are those are those the norms that basically, I guess, have been flouted here? You know, perhaps by just not being upfront about it.

So it's okay to be wealthy, as long as you don't pretend that you're better than somebody else or you don't lie about it, essentially. Are those are those the norms that basically, I guess, have been flouted here? You know, perhaps by just not being upfront about it.

Samantha, I reckon you could write the ethics manual on this now after, because I think I think that that puts it absolutely beautifully. Yeah. There's nothing simple, I think about, um, the ways in which Australians deal with the whole issue of equality. Yes. It often seems to have its. Its internal contradictions and even its hypocrisies, but it's nonetheless real. And when you see it in action, um, you can also, I think, perceive its power in those moments of, of pressure and scandal, perhaps that we can see it come out in election campaigns are famous for being pressure cookers, aren't they? Where people do and say things that they, you know, you often just scratch your head, don't you? Why did they do that? Why did they say that? Even experienced politicians are under, you know, levels of scrutiny that are unusual, um, for them. And I think that brings out some of these kinds of, you know, really often deeply entrenched aspects of our culture that you mightn't see at other times. So elections can be real, you know, almost theatres, I think, for the performance of those kinds of things.

Samantha, I reckon you could write the ethics manual on this now after, because I think I think that that puts it absolutely beautifully. Yeah. There's nothing simple, I think about, um, the ways in which Australians deal with the whole issue of equality. Yes. It often seems to have its. Its internal contradictions and even its hypocrisies, but it's nonetheless real. And when you see it in action, um, you can also, I think, perceive its power in those moments of, of pressure and scandal, perhaps that we can see it come out in election campaigns are famous for being pressure cookers, aren't they? Where people do and say things that they, you know, you often just scratch your head, don't you? Why did they do that? Why did they say that? Even experienced politicians are under, you know, levels of scrutiny that are unusual, um, for them. And I think that brings out some of these kinds of, you know, really often deeply entrenched aspects of our culture that you mightn't see at other times. So elections can be real, you know, almost theatres, I think, for the performance of those kinds of things.

It's absolutely fascinating. So thank you so much, Frank, for your time.

It's absolutely fascinating. So thank you so much, Frank, for your time.

Absolute pleasure. Samantha. Cheers.

Absolute pleasure. Samantha. Cheers.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself and Tammy Mills. To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself and Tammy Mills. To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.