Whenever I continue to do the same thing. If I don't have other voices outside of the system telling me, hey, that the world has changed, or hey, have you thought about this? Or hey, why are you doing that? The same way you've done it for 40 years or fill in the blank, right? I don't stretch my imagination. I'm not attuned. I can get in a rut, and I can just kind of do the machine of ministry or of church or whatever. And I think one of the, the balances here for me is where are the outside voices coming? Yep. There's ownership. Yep. There's engagement. But hey, if you build it, they don't just come anymore, right? I don't know how many times I've heard call committees say we just want a young pastor, because then young families will come. That recipe for church today will not produce a automatically bring young families.

Whenever I continue to do the same thing. If I don't have other voices outside of the system telling me, hey, that the world has changed, or hey, have you thought about this? Or hey, why are you doing that? The same way you've done it for 40 years or fill in the blank, right? I don't stretch my imagination. I'm not attuned. I can get in a rut, and I can just kind of do the machine of ministry or of church or whatever. And I think one of the, the balances here for me is where are the outside voices coming? Yep. There's ownership. Yep. There's engagement. But hey, if you build it, they don't just come anymore, right? I don't know how many times I've heard call committees say we just want a young pastor, because then young families will come. That recipe for church today will not produce a automatically bring young families.

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Alicia Granholm.

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Alicia Granholm.

Hi, and I'm Terri Elton, and.

Hi, and I'm Terri Elton, and.

I'm Dwight Zscheile. Here at Pivot, we believe there are four key pivots God is calling the church to make in the 21st century. They are a pivot in posture from fixing institutional problems to listening, discerning and experimenting as we follow where God is leading. A pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from one size or shape fits all models of ministry, to a mixed ecology of inherited and innovative forms of church working together. And finally, a pivot in leadership from primarily clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry.

I'm Dwight Zscheile. Here at Pivot, we believe there are four key pivots God is calling the church to make in the 21st century. They are a pivot in posture from fixing institutional problems to listening, discerning and experimenting as we follow where God is leading. A pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from one size or shape fits all models of ministry, to a mixed ecology of inherited and innovative forms of church working together. And finally, a pivot in leadership from primarily clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry.

Dwight. That's right. We've been talking a lot about that pivot, about clergy led and lay supported ministry to lay lead and clergy supported ministry lately. And while that's really hit a nerve, in fact, I was just at the ATS conference and we talked a lot about this. And so we've gotten a lot of questions about this and feedback from listeners. So today we just wanted to respond to some of those amazing and thoughtful feedback that have come in on this pivot.

Dwight. That's right. We've been talking a lot about that pivot, about clergy led and lay supported ministry to lay lead and clergy supported ministry lately. And while that's really hit a nerve, in fact, I was just at the ATS conference and we talked a lot about this. And so we've gotten a lot of questions about this and feedback from listeners. So today we just wanted to respond to some of those amazing and thoughtful feedback that have come in on this pivot.

Okay, so let's start with this one. Here's a quote from one of our listeners. I believe that lay led ministry across denominational lines as denominations die out, is the future of the church. I find it exciting to imagine an engaged church where we see ourselves as missionaries and pastors. What are your thoughts on the future of working ecumenical, and how might we approach churches or ministers who haven't been able to take on ecumenical relationships?

Okay, so let's start with this one. Here's a quote from one of our listeners. I believe that lay led ministry across denominational lines as denominations die out, is the future of the church. I find it exciting to imagine an engaged church where we see ourselves as missionaries and pastors. What are your thoughts on the future of working ecumenical, and how might we approach churches or ministers who haven't been able to take on ecumenical relationships?

Well, Christ has one church really at the end of the day, and I think some of the ways in which we've kept ourselves apart from one another in different denominations and all of that is a relic of the era of Christendom, where Christians could afford to splinter into smaller and smaller groups and argue about who was the true church and who was the false church. Now, if you go to societies like the UK, which are post-Christian, it's very different where people are rolling up their sleeves and cooperating together because they realize that they're in a society that is fundamentally pagan, and following Jesus is a minority option. And so we are more and more reaching that kind of situation here in America. And I think it presents all kinds of opportunities for ecumenical cooperation. We're seeing this certainly among a lot of rural communities where you can't sustain multiple denominational churches in communities that have lost a lot of population or certainly a lot lost a lot of church members. So so I think there's actually a lot of opportunity in this to claim the fundamental unity of the church, and then to recognize the different gifts that each tradition and denomination brings to the table.

Well, Christ has one church really at the end of the day, and I think some of the ways in which we've kept ourselves apart from one another in different denominations and all of that is a relic of the era of Christendom, where Christians could afford to splinter into smaller and smaller groups and argue about who was the true church and who was the false church. Now, if you go to societies like the UK, which are post-Christian, it's very different where people are rolling up their sleeves and cooperating together because they realize that they're in a society that is fundamentally pagan, and following Jesus is a minority option. And so we are more and more reaching that kind of situation here in America. And I think it presents all kinds of opportunities for ecumenical cooperation. We're seeing this certainly among a lot of rural communities where you can't sustain multiple denominational churches in communities that have lost a lot of population or certainly a lot lost a lot of church members. So so I think there's actually a lot of opportunity in this to claim the fundamental unity of the church, and then to recognize the different gifts that each tradition and denomination brings to the table.

So I love that, Dwight. I like I said, I was at this conference last week and, uh, the Association of Theological Schools is all a very diverse ecumenical group of people. And there was a group of us that have been working on some grants, and I was talking with some people from Princeton, and their grant really focused on bringing different groups of people together, a clergy and a lay person to work on some area of change, of engaging their neighbors, or of rethinking a ministry for the sake of the gospel being heard. And one of their biggest learnings was the gift of an expanded ecclesiology. And it's I think it speaks right to this, that these were people that would never have come together except for this grant, but over a year's time of learning together, hearing each other, relating to each other's challenges and opportunities, and then having a lay person and a clergy where the lay leader was empowered to lead in a new way and to really, um, listen deeply to what was going on either internally or externally in the congregation itself or in the community. And I love that they called this. This expanded ecclesiology was one of the gifts that they learned from this. So I just think we are not alone in what we're hearing of the church. I think other parts of our colleagues that are researching this are learning the same thing, that a way forward is really being one church, trying to think creatively and collaboratively with each other about what God's calling us to do in this time. If we move into a lay led, clergy supported model of ministry, then this is the big question. And I hear this all the time. What is the role of the professionally trained and credentialed clergy? Many of us, many of us on this call included, have spent years of our life dedicated to in-depth training and of navigating the screening process and credentialing of different denominations, or being vetted in various ways. So what would you all say to those leaders? And I think this is also brings up what's our theology of ordination.

So I love that, Dwight. I like I said, I was at this conference last week and, uh, the Association of Theological Schools is all a very diverse ecumenical group of people. And there was a group of us that have been working on some grants, and I was talking with some people from Princeton, and their grant really focused on bringing different groups of people together, a clergy and a lay person to work on some area of change, of engaging their neighbors, or of rethinking a ministry for the sake of the gospel being heard. And one of their biggest learnings was the gift of an expanded ecclesiology. And it's I think it speaks right to this, that these were people that would never have come together except for this grant, but over a year's time of learning together, hearing each other, relating to each other's challenges and opportunities, and then having a lay person and a clergy where the lay leader was empowered to lead in a new way and to really, um, listen deeply to what was going on either internally or externally in the congregation itself or in the community. And I love that they called this. This expanded ecclesiology was one of the gifts that they learned from this. So I just think we are not alone in what we're hearing of the church. I think other parts of our colleagues that are researching this are learning the same thing, that a way forward is really being one church, trying to think creatively and collaboratively with each other about what God's calling us to do in this time. If we move into a lay led, clergy supported model of ministry, then this is the big question. And I hear this all the time. What is the role of the professionally trained and credentialed clergy? Many of us, many of us on this call included, have spent years of our life dedicated to in-depth training and of navigating the screening process and credentialing of different denominations, or being vetted in various ways. So what would you all say to those leaders? And I think this is also brings up what's our theology of ordination.

Well, this is again a question we get all the time. And it's a really important one. It's easy to hear this, this conversation about a shift toward primarily lay led ministry as either a negation of the value of deep theological education and ordination and the kind of careful vetting that is entailed and accountability that are entailed in ordination. We don't mean that at all. So I think there's a really vital role for ordained clergy in this landscape. But it's a little different role, and I want to see if maybe we can unpack that a little bit. To me, there are two primary elements of it that are really essential. The first is theological and spiritual leadership, which includes sacramental leadership, and the second is equipping others for ministry. So if you are ordained and have done a deep theological study, you have been, um, invited into the conversation about what it means to follow Jesus historically. Um, ecumenical Lee, uh, in a deep way over time. And that wisdom is absolutely essential for the church to navigate this moment that we find ourselves in. Right? This is not a moment where we need to be theologically thinner, less robust, less rooted, less grounded. In fact, we need to actually think more clearly and in a deeper way about the theological challenges facing the church. The same thing applies to the spiritual practices and wisdom of the tradition. That's what our communities need from clergy right now. Now, I know a lot of clergy are consumed with managing and administering the non-profit voluntary association that is the typical voluntary association congregation, often with fewer resources and volunteer support, and that can completely consume their time. But you know, those of us who are ordained, we got into this because God called us to do it, and because we wanted to be spiritual leaders and theological leaders in a community. So that is absolutely essential. Um, and there's a sacramental piece to that. And this touches on the question about theology of ordination, which of course, different traditions have different theologies of that. But for those who do have a theology of ordination, you know, historically word and sacrament ministry, at least in the Reformation traditions, is often been, um, the emphasis there. And those are those are opportunities for the gathered community to make sense of its life in God, to experience God's promises, um, to be, um, to be joined sacramentally in participating in the body of Christ and in the life of Christ through the power of the spirit. That is holy work that needs careful tending. It's not a casual thing. It's not a light thing. It's a it's a deep thing. Um, and then the other piece, I think, is equipping the saints for ministry. Right. And the whole body of Christ and, um, and I think part of the challenge of the professional model of clergy formation is the assumption is that we as clergy are there just to do the ministry for everyone, rather than primarily be the ones who can equip others to do it. And it's hard to equip people to do something you don't know how to do yourself. And at the same time, it's not about monopolizing the ministry, it really is about cultivating gift space, discernment based, empowered leadership among the whole body of Christ. So, Alicia, what do you think?

Well, this is again a question we get all the time. And it's a really important one. It's easy to hear this, this conversation about a shift toward primarily lay led ministry as either a negation of the value of deep theological education and ordination and the kind of careful vetting that is entailed and accountability that are entailed in ordination. We don't mean that at all. So I think there's a really vital role for ordained clergy in this landscape. But it's a little different role, and I want to see if maybe we can unpack that a little bit. To me, there are two primary elements of it that are really essential. The first is theological and spiritual leadership, which includes sacramental leadership, and the second is equipping others for ministry. So if you are ordained and have done a deep theological study, you have been, um, invited into the conversation about what it means to follow Jesus historically. Um, ecumenical Lee, uh, in a deep way over time. And that wisdom is absolutely essential for the church to navigate this moment that we find ourselves in. Right? This is not a moment where we need to be theologically thinner, less robust, less rooted, less grounded. In fact, we need to actually think more clearly and in a deeper way about the theological challenges facing the church. The same thing applies to the spiritual practices and wisdom of the tradition. That's what our communities need from clergy right now. Now, I know a lot of clergy are consumed with managing and administering the non-profit voluntary association that is the typical voluntary association congregation, often with fewer resources and volunteer support, and that can completely consume their time. But you know, those of us who are ordained, we got into this because God called us to do it, and because we wanted to be spiritual leaders and theological leaders in a community. So that is absolutely essential. Um, and there's a sacramental piece to that. And this touches on the question about theology of ordination, which of course, different traditions have different theologies of that. But for those who do have a theology of ordination, you know, historically word and sacrament ministry, at least in the Reformation traditions, is often been, um, the emphasis there. And those are those are opportunities for the gathered community to make sense of its life in God, to experience God's promises, um, to be, um, to be joined sacramentally in participating in the body of Christ and in the life of Christ through the power of the spirit. That is holy work that needs careful tending. It's not a casual thing. It's not a light thing. It's a it's a deep thing. Um, and then the other piece, I think, is equipping the saints for ministry. Right. And the whole body of Christ and, um, and I think part of the challenge of the professional model of clergy formation is the assumption is that we as clergy are there just to do the ministry for everyone, rather than primarily be the ones who can equip others to do it. And it's hard to equip people to do something you don't know how to do yourself. And at the same time, it's not about monopolizing the ministry, it really is about cultivating gift space, discernment based, empowered leadership among the whole body of Christ. So, Alicia, what do you think?

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Dwight. And I really think this is an invitation, uh, to, um, to really maybe hear again, uh, Paul's encouragement to, uh, the church in Ephesus in, um, in chapter four, Paul writes, it was he who gave he Jesus Christ, uh, who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of fullness of Christ. And I think rather than, um, seeing this as like there's no longer a need for clergy, I really think it's reclaiming, uh, what some of us would call. Right. The priesthood of all believers. Um, and really, the this theology around that, that we all have a calling and we need people to help equip the saints. And I really think that it's a call to, um, for pastors, for teachers to really, um, embody that equipping element again for the church and so that we can, you know, really attain the full measure of maturity in Christ that we've been called to. Um, and I do think there's a very important role for clergy, um, and, and for a lot of clergy, it will be different than how they have been practicing their ministry, depending on, uh, you know, the what it what it looks like for them, uh, not just during their ordination process, but also, um, as they pursue their, their, uh, graduate degrees. But, um, but we there's a, a call to, I would argue, go back to equipping the saints and really seeing um that it's the church is we're called to to be the church. All of us. We all have a role. Um, and it's, you know, in God's grace that we've been given different gifts and, um, and I think now is a really great time. It's always been a good time. Uh, but I think now's a really great time, um, to shift back to, um, really seeing, uh, the, the whole community of believers being equipped and and to live out their calling. Um, of what it looks like for each one of us, um, to respond to God's call and gifts in our own life.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Dwight. And I really think this is an invitation, uh, to, um, to really maybe hear again, uh, Paul's encouragement to, uh, the church in Ephesus in, um, in chapter four, Paul writes, it was he who gave he Jesus Christ, uh, who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of fullness of Christ. And I think rather than, um, seeing this as like there's no longer a need for clergy, I really think it's reclaiming, uh, what some of us would call. Right. The priesthood of all believers. Um, and really, the this theology around that, that we all have a calling and we need people to help equip the saints. And I really think that it's a call to, um, for pastors, for teachers to really, um, embody that equipping element again for the church and so that we can, you know, really attain the full measure of maturity in Christ that we've been called to. Um, and I do think there's a very important role for clergy, um, and, and for a lot of clergy, it will be different than how they have been practicing their ministry, depending on, uh, you know, the what it what it looks like for them, uh, not just during their ordination process, but also, um, as they pursue their, their, uh, graduate degrees. But, um, but we there's a, a call to, I would argue, go back to equipping the saints and really seeing um that it's the church is we're called to to be the church. All of us. We all have a role. Um, and it's, you know, in God's grace that we've been given different gifts and, um, and I think now is a really great time. It's always been a good time. Uh, but I think now's a really great time, um, to shift back to, um, really seeing, uh, the, the whole community of believers being equipped and and to live out their calling. Um, of what it looks like for each one of us, um, to respond to God's call and gifts in our own life.

So I'm working on the discernment class for Faith Lead Academy coming out this fall. Just a little plug for that. And I think in my work, this is actually one of the modules is how do you discern everybody has a calling. Like you said, Alicia and some of us are called to this public office of ordained ministry. And it it's the two work together. But the clergy, at the end of the day are there to help equip right to help release and empower. Um, say the spirit is at work within you. Go be the church in the world, right? And I think for some of us that are Protestant to go back to what was the the problem at that time that the, the Reformation theologians were trying to get at? And in my tradition, Martin Luther. Right. Where did the priesthood of all believers believers come from? It's not that you have to retreat from the world to do ministry, it's that we're called into the world. And I think we get caught sometimes that we can make our own, um, stuckness today that they were dealing with at that time. It's not just ministry is for the ordained. The ministry is for all of us so that all people may come to know God. And there's a particular calling of the ordained to help with that process. And in fact, this actually, I think, aligns more with our calling. Um, so I just want to highlight we have a long trajectory. And I think we we've gotten stuck at this moment that we need to release it again.

So I'm working on the discernment class for Faith Lead Academy coming out this fall. Just a little plug for that. And I think in my work, this is actually one of the modules is how do you discern everybody has a calling. Like you said, Alicia and some of us are called to this public office of ordained ministry. And it it's the two work together. But the clergy, at the end of the day are there to help equip right to help release and empower. Um, say the spirit is at work within you. Go be the church in the world, right? And I think for some of us that are Protestant to go back to what was the the problem at that time that the, the Reformation theologians were trying to get at? And in my tradition, Martin Luther. Right. Where did the priesthood of all believers believers come from? It's not that you have to retreat from the world to do ministry, it's that we're called into the world. And I think we get caught sometimes that we can make our own, um, stuckness today that they were dealing with at that time. It's not just ministry is for the ordained. The ministry is for all of us so that all people may come to know God. And there's a particular calling of the ordained to help with that process. And in fact, this actually, I think, aligns more with our calling. Um, so I just want to highlight we have a long trajectory. And I think we we've gotten stuck at this moment that we need to release it again.

Terri, I love what you said. Sorry Dwight, I know I cut you off. I love what you said. Um, but I just. I couldn't help but think about how, um, there's, uh, there's a piece where there are a lot of Christians today and people who who want to be more deeply formed in their faith, and they don't know how their faith connects to their everyday life. And to me, I think that that's a massive opportunity for clergy to be able to help, um, everyday people, everyday Christians, um, make a much stronger connection between their everyday life and what they experience in the world every day and their families and their job, um, in the community, etc. um, with what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And so I, I just think there's a massive opportunity, um, for clergy today in that element of equipping.

Terri, I love what you said. Sorry Dwight, I know I cut you off. I love what you said. Um, but I just. I couldn't help but think about how, um, there's, uh, there's a piece where there are a lot of Christians today and people who who want to be more deeply formed in their faith, and they don't know how their faith connects to their everyday life. And to me, I think that that's a massive opportunity for clergy to be able to help, um, everyday people, everyday Christians, um, make a much stronger connection between their everyday life and what they experience in the world every day and their families and their job, um, in the community, etc. um, with what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And so I, I just think there's a massive opportunity, um, for clergy today in that element of equipping.

Amen. That's all I want to say.

Amen. That's all I want to say.

So I think one of the other ways this, um, particular role of clergy is going to play out, it already is. Playing out in some particularly rural contexts, is going to be returning to more of an early church understanding of apostolic oversight of a region where there are lay leaders who are leading local Christian communities, a very sort, but under the authority and accountability and oversight of of clergy. And I think I just want to say something about that importance of accountability. You know, I, for one, have a robust doctrine of sin, and anyone can in any local Christian community can go wrong. Clergy are not exempt from that. But but there is value in having structures of oversight and deep training and accountability so that, you know, all of us can, in fact, grow to the maturity of the full measure of the stature of Christ, as Ephesians says. So, um, okay. Well, so one of our our listeners wrote this in, I'm just going to read some of what this person said in August, I'll begin my fifth year of lay leadership in a small church in the Midwest. We find ourselves lamenting the fact that we are down to about 67 members. But when we consider that 35 to 45 attend every Sunday, that's as many as two thirds attending on a regular basis. Not many large churches can boast like that. Our regional church body isn't much help. They have meetings with the same information and no solutions. This has made us determine that we are responsible for our own future, so we will keep working at it and see where the Holy Spirit leads us. So, Terri and Alicia, what advice would you have for a congregation in that kind of situation?

So I think one of the other ways this, um, particular role of clergy is going to play out, it already is. Playing out in some particularly rural contexts, is going to be returning to more of an early church understanding of apostolic oversight of a region where there are lay leaders who are leading local Christian communities, a very sort, but under the authority and accountability and oversight of of clergy. And I think I just want to say something about that importance of accountability. You know, I, for one, have a robust doctrine of sin, and anyone can in any local Christian community can go wrong. Clergy are not exempt from that. But but there is value in having structures of oversight and deep training and accountability so that, you know, all of us can, in fact, grow to the maturity of the full measure of the stature of Christ, as Ephesians says. So, um, okay. Well, so one of our our listeners wrote this in, I'm just going to read some of what this person said in August, I'll begin my fifth year of lay leadership in a small church in the Midwest. We find ourselves lamenting the fact that we are down to about 67 members. But when we consider that 35 to 45 attend every Sunday, that's as many as two thirds attending on a regular basis. Not many large churches can boast like that. Our regional church body isn't much help. They have meetings with the same information and no solutions. This has made us determine that we are responsible for our own future, so we will keep working at it and see where the Holy Spirit leads us. So, Terri and Alicia, what advice would you have for a congregation in that kind of situation?

Well, I think the end is where I would start. So we will keep working at it and see where the Holy Spirit leads us. I I'm going to use a different example. That or it may seem different at the beginning, but I think it gets at the same thing. When I was early on in ministry, we were located in a really expanding part of the state, and our ministry was growing quicker than we could handle it. So we had to equip people and equip people and do jazz and listen to the spirit and navigate, you know, new things and adapt as we went. But what was really fun for me in that was there was this ongoing moment where we were regularly stopping, um, and we were saying, God, where would you have us go next? We were committed to not saying no to people showing up. So the impulse was, so what do we need to do to welcome more people? Now go to this. This is not an expanding one, but it's a new model. And I think the ability to say, what are the spiritual practices? What what is God calling us to be? And do the hands and feet of Jesus? What does it mean to love each other, to grow in faith, to love our neighbors, and to witness to the amazing power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrected Christ in our midst? Where is hope needed? Where is care needed? Where are people hungry? And if we're asking those questions together with the spirit breaking in, I think we're doing the work of church. And so for me, it would be a much more simple keep doing spiritual practices, keep talking to each other, and keep looking for opportunities or energy, as As my colleague here, Dwight Zscheile, would often say, where energy is, there maybe is the spirit. What do you think, Alicia?

Well, I think the end is where I would start. So we will keep working at it and see where the Holy Spirit leads us. I I'm going to use a different example. That or it may seem different at the beginning, but I think it gets at the same thing. When I was early on in ministry, we were located in a really expanding part of the state, and our ministry was growing quicker than we could handle it. So we had to equip people and equip people and do jazz and listen to the spirit and navigate, you know, new things and adapt as we went. But what was really fun for me in that was there was this ongoing moment where we were regularly stopping, um, and we were saying, God, where would you have us go next? We were committed to not saying no to people showing up. So the impulse was, so what do we need to do to welcome more people? Now go to this. This is not an expanding one, but it's a new model. And I think the ability to say, what are the spiritual practices? What what is God calling us to be? And do the hands and feet of Jesus? What does it mean to love each other, to grow in faith, to love our neighbors, and to witness to the amazing power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrected Christ in our midst? Where is hope needed? Where is care needed? Where are people hungry? And if we're asking those questions together with the spirit breaking in, I think we're doing the work of church. And so for me, it would be a much more simple keep doing spiritual practices, keep talking to each other, and keep looking for opportunities or energy, as As my colleague here, Dwight Zscheile, would often say, where energy is, there maybe is the spirit. What do you think, Alicia?

Yeah, Terri, I agree, and I, um, I can't help but think of this example that I heard over the weekend when I was listening to a podcast that I don't know who originally said it. Um, somebody else will. So feel free to write in and tell me. Or maybe one of you guys know, but. Right. We can often get trapped when there when a door closes, and we are disappointed because our expectations aren't met. Whether it's about our regional church body not providing the kind of support that we're looking for, or because we don't have clergy anymore, or wherever that disappointment lies. And, um, it can be likened to a door closing. And then we continue to longingly look at that door and wait for it to reopen, when in fact, if we just turn our gaze a little bit, we'll see that in fact, a different door has already been opened. But we can really waste a lot of energy and time, um, by, um, really longing for something that simply isn't there anymore and may never be, um, and instead of, um, of really, as you said, Terri, you know, finding that where the, the life giving energy of the spirit is leading us and, um, and I do I want to make a point that I think it is really important to name where when we're disappointed, right, when expectations haven't been met. Uh, to name that disappointment, to grieve it. Um, but then in that grieving, create space for us to wonder anew. Okay. If we believe God is still at work, which we do, uh, if we believe God is still at work, what might God be up to? And how can we join in? Um, and to to shift our energy and our focus into that curiosity. Um, because it can get really easy for us to get stuck in disappointment when in fact, God is up to something new. Um, and and there's so much life energy to be found in, in being curious about that and really focusing our time and energy on on exploring that and discerning what that might be. Our next, um, our next quote from a listener was that the problem that they have with lay ministry is that those empowered by the priest or a pastor, after a while lost all deference to the church's pastor and behave as if they own the church and do not need leadership. How would you respond to that? Dwight or Terri?

Yeah, Terri, I agree, and I, um, I can't help but think of this example that I heard over the weekend when I was listening to a podcast that I don't know who originally said it. Um, somebody else will. So feel free to write in and tell me. Or maybe one of you guys know, but. Right. We can often get trapped when there when a door closes, and we are disappointed because our expectations aren't met. Whether it's about our regional church body not providing the kind of support that we're looking for, or because we don't have clergy anymore, or wherever that disappointment lies. And, um, it can be likened to a door closing. And then we continue to longingly look at that door and wait for it to reopen, when in fact, if we just turn our gaze a little bit, we'll see that in fact, a different door has already been opened. But we can really waste a lot of energy and time, um, by, um, really longing for something that simply isn't there anymore and may never be, um, and instead of, um, of really, as you said, Terri, you know, finding that where the, the life giving energy of the spirit is leading us and, um, and I do I want to make a point that I think it is really important to name where when we're disappointed, right, when expectations haven't been met. Uh, to name that disappointment, to grieve it. Um, but then in that grieving, create space for us to wonder anew. Okay. If we believe God is still at work, which we do, uh, if we believe God is still at work, what might God be up to? And how can we join in? Um, and to to shift our energy and our focus into that curiosity. Um, because it can get really easy for us to get stuck in disappointment when in fact, God is up to something new. Um, and and there's so much life energy to be found in, in being curious about that and really focusing our time and energy on on exploring that and discerning what that might be. Our next, um, our next quote from a listener was that the problem that they have with lay ministry is that those empowered by the priest or a pastor, after a while lost all deference to the church's pastor and behave as if they own the church and do not need leadership. How would you respond to that? Dwight or Terri?

Well, so I want to, um, highlight one of the words, which was they behave as if they own the church, which I think is actually a good thing. Right? So we want we want the whole body of Christ to own the ministry of the church. It's God's church, really. Actually, God is the owner. We're all stewards of it. But but if we think in terms of a kind of zero sum, either clergy own the ministry or laypeople own the ministry, and it's a kind of tug of war. I don't think that's necessarily helpful. I wonder in this, um, this question from this listener, there's if there's something else going on here, which is, um, perhaps questions of accountability. Right. Um, so so I'm all for full empowerment of lay leaders in ministry. I think that's wonderful. And, um, that ministry does need to be accountable to the historic faith, to, you know, good practice, to safeguarding all kinds of things that are that are traditionally, often, um, you know, clergy are responsible for. So what does it work? What does it look like in a community to have both empowerment and accountability and collaboration? Um, and that to work well and flourish? I think that's very possible. And part of it, though, is reframing how we think about, um, so power is not a limited commodity in the life of the church. It is something that can be multiplied. We see in the ministry of Jesus that he was empowering people. Um, power would flow out of him for healings, for instance, and he would feel that. And yet it was also something that he was celebrating and giving away. Right. And so, um, Jesus himself empowers disciples who aren't necessarily fully ready at the time of his ascension to actually do what he's asking them to do, even though they've been with him for three years. Um, and and yet he gives them the power of the Holy Spirit to, to continue to guide them and and to to shape that ministry. So, so I think we have to think more expansively and abundantly about power as, as something that's not, you know, we're not going to run out of it. And it's not either I have it or you have it. It's it's the Holy Spirit gives it to the body of Christ. How do we discern its use collaboratively for the sake of the common good, building up the body of Christ? Again, back to Ephesians four and not for destructive use. So it shouldn't be something that then gets turned against, for instance, clergy or whatever the systems are that are there to ensure, um, you know, unity of faith and knowledge and accountability.

Well, so I want to, um, highlight one of the words, which was they behave as if they own the church, which I think is actually a good thing. Right? So we want we want the whole body of Christ to own the ministry of the church. It's God's church, really. Actually, God is the owner. We're all stewards of it. But but if we think in terms of a kind of zero sum, either clergy own the ministry or laypeople own the ministry, and it's a kind of tug of war. I don't think that's necessarily helpful. I wonder in this, um, this question from this listener, there's if there's something else going on here, which is, um, perhaps questions of accountability. Right. Um, so so I'm all for full empowerment of lay leaders in ministry. I think that's wonderful. And, um, that ministry does need to be accountable to the historic faith, to, you know, good practice, to safeguarding all kinds of things that are that are traditionally, often, um, you know, clergy are responsible for. So what does it work? What does it look like in a community to have both empowerment and accountability and collaboration? Um, and that to work well and flourish? I think that's very possible. And part of it, though, is reframing how we think about, um, so power is not a limited commodity in the life of the church. It is something that can be multiplied. We see in the ministry of Jesus that he was empowering people. Um, power would flow out of him for healings, for instance, and he would feel that. And yet it was also something that he was celebrating and giving away. Right. And so, um, Jesus himself empowers disciples who aren't necessarily fully ready at the time of his ascension to actually do what he's asking them to do, even though they've been with him for three years. Um, and and yet he gives them the power of the Holy Spirit to, to continue to guide them and and to to shape that ministry. So, so I think we have to think more expansively and abundantly about power as, as something that's not, you know, we're not going to run out of it. And it's not either I have it or you have it. It's it's the Holy Spirit gives it to the body of Christ. How do we discern its use collaboratively for the sake of the common good, building up the body of Christ? Again, back to Ephesians four and not for destructive use. So it shouldn't be something that then gets turned against, for instance, clergy or whatever the systems are that are there to ensure, um, you know, unity of faith and knowledge and accountability.

So one of the things that I was thinking about with this question is it's a both and right. We want the empowerment of the body to be invested in engaged in ministry, for sure. And I think whenever I continue to do the same thing, if I don't have other voices outside of the system telling me, hey, that the world has changed, or hey, have you thought about this? Or hey, why are you doing that? The same way you've done it for 40 years or fill in the blank, right? I don't stretch my imagination. I'm not attuned. I can get in a rut, and I can just kind of do the machine of ministry or of church or whatever. And I think one of the the balances here for me is where are the outside voices coming? Yep. There's ownership. Yep. There's engagement. But hey, if you build it, they don't just come anymore, right? I don't know how many times I've heard call committees say we just want a young pastor, because then young families will come. That recipe for church today will not produce a automatically bring young families. Right. And so I think the piece for me around this question, if I go underneath it, Dwight, like you said, I think there's other things going on here is what what does somebody who's looking at the bigger picture bring into that dialogue? and what are the people engaged in the everyday? So, for example, I could see an outside person having too big of a voice and missing know this is Jenny and she's got these issues and we these are the gifts she can bring. If you do that, we take her out of the equation. You know, the ability to see the gifts of the community and honor them, but also to have, uh, imagination and to have wonder and curiosity about how else might we be thinking about ministry. I too, believe in sin and the ability that we turn in in ourselves. And I see too often congregations just keep doing it the same way, thinking they're going to get different results in a different time. And that's a problem. So it's the end for me of putting these things together. So I have another quote from one of our listeners. They say this I have been convinced of the lay led clergy supported point of view for some time, and would be elated if we could have that as our new norm. Yet, in my experience, many of the clergy are not willing to allow the Holy Spirit to work within the context. And it and they continue to refer to the polity of the church and the presumed roles of both. What's the lay and the clergy? I have been able to work with the small church that is open to innovation, and there are numerous opportunities for the spirit in this church if it will allow it. So the question here is how do we get out of the way and let the spirit do the Spirit's thing? Dwight. Alicia, what do you think?

So one of the things that I was thinking about with this question is it's a both and right. We want the empowerment of the body to be invested in engaged in ministry, for sure. And I think whenever I continue to do the same thing, if I don't have other voices outside of the system telling me, hey, that the world has changed, or hey, have you thought about this? Or hey, why are you doing that? The same way you've done it for 40 years or fill in the blank, right? I don't stretch my imagination. I'm not attuned. I can get in a rut, and I can just kind of do the machine of ministry or of church or whatever. And I think one of the the balances here for me is where are the outside voices coming? Yep. There's ownership. Yep. There's engagement. But hey, if you build it, they don't just come anymore, right? I don't know how many times I've heard call committees say we just want a young pastor, because then young families will come. That recipe for church today will not produce a automatically bring young families. Right. And so I think the piece for me around this question, if I go underneath it, Dwight, like you said, I think there's other things going on here is what what does somebody who's looking at the bigger picture bring into that dialogue? and what are the people engaged in the everyday? So, for example, I could see an outside person having too big of a voice and missing know this is Jenny and she's got these issues and we these are the gifts she can bring. If you do that, we take her out of the equation. You know, the ability to see the gifts of the community and honor them, but also to have, uh, imagination and to have wonder and curiosity about how else might we be thinking about ministry. I too, believe in sin and the ability that we turn in in ourselves. And I see too often congregations just keep doing it the same way, thinking they're going to get different results in a different time. And that's a problem. So it's the end for me of putting these things together. So I have another quote from one of our listeners. They say this I have been convinced of the lay led clergy supported point of view for some time, and would be elated if we could have that as our new norm. Yet, in my experience, many of the clergy are not willing to allow the Holy Spirit to work within the context. And it and they continue to refer to the polity of the church and the presumed roles of both. What's the lay and the clergy? I have been able to work with the small church that is open to innovation, and there are numerous opportunities for the spirit in this church if it will allow it. So the question here is how do we get out of the way and let the spirit do the Spirit's thing? Dwight. Alicia, what do you think?

Well, I think the question of structure and spirit, uh, is a long one, and we see it even in the Bible itself. Right. Um, the ways in which the spirit was breaking open inherited structures of first century Judaism that the early church was navigating, and the way in which, over time, the Holy Spirit works to adapt and recontextualize or re-embody, if you will, the church's life, in particular historical circumstances. And so I just want to name that we're coming out of a period that's this long period of Christendom when Christianity was culturally and socially privileged, politically economically privileged in Western societies. And that tended to focus a lot on structures of control and containment of various things for, you know, the just sort of running of the church and particularly the the modern version of that in the 20th century with the development of an industrial economy was very much command and control bureaucratic structures, particularly where expertise and wisdom is assumed to be among the, you know, various elites or those who have the specialist knowledge. And in the case of the church, that would be clergy. We are now seeing the breakdown of those structures across society with enormous, um, questions, right, that are emerging around what does it mean to live and to have life in these new ways without some of those constraints? And so this is an opportunity once again, the church has been through this before to discern what is faithful ministry look like in a particular situation, and what are some of the rules that we've inherited that are very wise, that we want to hold on to? Some of the structures or polities? Another way to talk about this, and what are some of those that are were maybe more contextualized or geared toward or birthed in a very different historical moment that we need to hold more lightly. And so I think the best way to think about this is what are some simple grassroots experiments we can undertake that are spirit led, discerned, connected to the wisdom of the tradition. But what space can we make for those in order to learn how to be effectively in ministry in this world we find ourselves in? And then once we've learned more, we can adjust our policies, our procedures, our polity, all of those things in order to find whatever the new shape of embodiment is that might be more sustainable over the long term. But I think for in this moment when structures are breaking down, we simply don't know. And we need to actually do grassroots experimentation. So I think the getting out of our own way is really important right now. And that's giving permission. It's allowing for lots of experiments. It's encouraging iteration and adaptation, and rather than thinking that somebody has the expert answer to fix all of this, if they would only apply it because that's simply not the case.

Well, I think the question of structure and spirit, uh, is a long one, and we see it even in the Bible itself. Right. Um, the ways in which the spirit was breaking open inherited structures of first century Judaism that the early church was navigating, and the way in which, over time, the Holy Spirit works to adapt and recontextualize or re-embody, if you will, the church's life, in particular historical circumstances. And so I just want to name that we're coming out of a period that's this long period of Christendom when Christianity was culturally and socially privileged, politically economically privileged in Western societies. And that tended to focus a lot on structures of control and containment of various things for, you know, the just sort of running of the church and particularly the the modern version of that in the 20th century with the development of an industrial economy was very much command and control bureaucratic structures, particularly where expertise and wisdom is assumed to be among the, you know, various elites or those who have the specialist knowledge. And in the case of the church, that would be clergy. We are now seeing the breakdown of those structures across society with enormous, um, questions, right, that are emerging around what does it mean to live and to have life in these new ways without some of those constraints? And so this is an opportunity once again, the church has been through this before to discern what is faithful ministry look like in a particular situation, and what are some of the rules that we've inherited that are very wise, that we want to hold on to? Some of the structures or polities? Another way to talk about this, and what are some of those that are were maybe more contextualized or geared toward or birthed in a very different historical moment that we need to hold more lightly. And so I think the best way to think about this is what are some simple grassroots experiments we can undertake that are spirit led, discerned, connected to the wisdom of the tradition. But what space can we make for those in order to learn how to be effectively in ministry in this world we find ourselves in? And then once we've learned more, we can adjust our policies, our procedures, our polity, all of those things in order to find whatever the new shape of embodiment is that might be more sustainable over the long term. But I think for in this moment when structures are breaking down, we simply don't know. And we need to actually do grassroots experimentation. So I think the getting out of our own way is really important right now. And that's giving permission. It's allowing for lots of experiments. It's encouraging iteration and adaptation, and rather than thinking that somebody has the expert answer to fix all of this, if they would only apply it because that's simply not the case.

Yeah, I agree, Dwight. And I can't help but think, right, like we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Um, and, um, you know, there are numerous personality types, uh, in the church. You could, you could say all different personality types make up the church, um, and all different personality types. Right? Make up, uh, church leaders. And, um, one of the things that we will often say with churches that we're working with, um, especially, uh, if there are questions around, you know, how do you. What does it look like to discern what God might be up to? Or how do we how do how do we learn and listen and be more attuned to the what the Holy Spirit is, is doing right now in our midst or in the midst of our community? And one of our encouragements is always to to do it on the side, um, and to to practice a new way of being the church. Um, you can't talk about it, uh, and talk it into being, um, you really have to practice it into being. And some of these muscles, frankly, are just a little bit weak or might be anemic. And in some congregations, um, but by doing it on the side and with the smaller group of people, um, you know, there can there's a group that can really be, um, to can just start to practice what it looks like to, to be more attuned to, to the spirit by listening to each other, doing, dwelling in the word practices. Um, we talk about a number of these different practices on our podcast. Um, but I really think that by doing it on the side, rather than engaging the whole congregation around it, we can we can reduce some of the risk that's involved, because at the end of the day, any time we try anything new, there's always risk involved and risk is a good thing. It's not bad. We need to take risks. I think. I think God invites each of us individually and collectively to take risks all the time. Um, but whenever we're doing something new, risk is involved. And so, um, it can be handled really well in congregations by engaging that risk on the side and having a smaller group, um, be curious about what the Holy Spirit is up to and discerning what that might be for the whole congregation, and then slowly inviting the congregation into that rather than making really big, sweeping, uh, broad, large changes that, at the end of the day, might actually disrupt the congregation enough that it just crumbles and falls to pieces. And I've seen that happen. I've seen both happen. Um, but you know what we don't want to have happen is, um, is is that right? Is the, um, the pain and the hurt that can be caused when we really disrupt the life of a congregation beyond the kind of change that, um, that it can handle. Well.

Yeah, I agree, Dwight. And I can't help but think, right, like we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Um, and, um, you know, there are numerous personality types, uh, in the church. You could, you could say all different personality types make up the church, um, and all different personality types. Right? Make up, uh, church leaders. And, um, one of the things that we will often say with churches that we're working with, um, especially, uh, if there are questions around, you know, how do you. What does it look like to discern what God might be up to? Or how do we how do how do we learn and listen and be more attuned to the what the Holy Spirit is, is doing right now in our midst or in the midst of our community? And one of our encouragements is always to to do it on the side, um, and to to practice a new way of being the church. Um, you can't talk about it, uh, and talk it into being, um, you really have to practice it into being. And some of these muscles, frankly, are just a little bit weak or might be anemic. And in some congregations, um, but by doing it on the side and with the smaller group of people, um, you know, there can there's a group that can really be, um, to can just start to practice what it looks like to, to be more attuned to, to the spirit by listening to each other, doing, dwelling in the word practices. Um, we talk about a number of these different practices on our podcast. Um, but I really think that by doing it on the side, rather than engaging the whole congregation around it, we can we can reduce some of the risk that's involved, because at the end of the day, any time we try anything new, there's always risk involved and risk is a good thing. It's not bad. We need to take risks. I think. I think God invites each of us individually and collectively to take risks all the time. Um, but whenever we're doing something new, risk is involved. And so, um, it can be handled really well in congregations by engaging that risk on the side and having a smaller group, um, be curious about what the Holy Spirit is up to and discerning what that might be for the whole congregation, and then slowly inviting the congregation into that rather than making really big, sweeping, uh, broad, large changes that, at the end of the day, might actually disrupt the congregation enough that it just crumbles and falls to pieces. And I've seen that happen. I've seen both happen. Um, but you know what we don't want to have happen is, um, is is that right? Is the, um, the pain and the hurt that can be caused when we really disrupt the life of a congregation beyond the kind of change that, um, that it can handle. Well.

So, Terri and Alicia, one last question here before we wrap up for today. So there's a new study that just recently came out from the scholar Linda mercadante. And she's done a lot of research on the spiritual but not religious. But this study was really interesting. It was a smaller study, but it was of clergy who themselves identify now as spiritual but not religious, and are leaving ministry, most of them mainline clergy. Um, I thought that was a fascinating study, speaking to a deeper crisis that's going on among clergy and many churches. And, um, I'm curious, what would you say to that phenomenon and what's your your sense of what's going on there?

So, Terri and Alicia, one last question here before we wrap up for today. So there's a new study that just recently came out from the scholar Linda mercadante. And she's done a lot of research on the spiritual but not religious. But this study was really interesting. It was a smaller study, but it was of clergy who themselves identify now as spiritual but not religious, and are leaving ministry, most of them mainline clergy. Um, I thought that was a fascinating study, speaking to a deeper crisis that's going on among clergy and many churches. And, um, I'm curious, what would you say to that phenomenon and what's your your sense of what's going on there?

So I think, Dwight, the the piece that resonates with me is I think for a lot of people, including our religious leaders, and I would even say our lay leaders that are leading in our religious structures, not just the ordained people running the church, became more of the focus than being a follower of Jesus. And this happened way before Covid. This you know, this was a long time ago. And yet, in the crisis of watching decline, people didn't know what the situation was. So they held tighter to the structures. Let's just do it better. Let's just try a different curriculum. Let's just whatever, try a different type of worship. We we clung to the church structures and we continued to move the church embodiment away from what does it mean to follow Jesus in my everyday life? And I think Covid broke open that exhaustion for our leaders, that lack of spiritual practices, that lack of like, God, are you feeding me spirit? Where are you at in my life? And so we I'll just say a couple of things. I think we at Luther Seminary are taking it seriously about what does it mean to equip the leaders in our programs, both degree and non-degree, in spiritual practices, dwelling in the word, having conversations like being able to say, how are you spiritually and how is it going and what do you need and how can we accompany you in that? But also the ability of like, how are you making spiritual meaning and of literally letting each other ourselves as leaders and those that are a part of our community say, I'm in a crisis and I don't know where God is. My grandkid has terminal cancer. He's 17. I have a really complicated relationship with the church, and you're the only community that lets me bring my real question to the table and not give me a fake answer. But you pray for me. You let me talk about it. Right? And I think, what would it mean for our leaders of spiritual communities, um, to actually be walking the walk, have community to do that deeper spiritual meaning making in their own life, and be willing to say they don't have it all together for others and invite them into the same practices with each other. So I think there's a call to a deeper sense of accompanying in in a in a following of Jesus and meaning making in this time.

So I think, Dwight, the the piece that resonates with me is I think for a lot of people, including our religious leaders, and I would even say our lay leaders that are leading in our religious structures, not just the ordained people running the church, became more of the focus than being a follower of Jesus. And this happened way before Covid. This you know, this was a long time ago. And yet, in the crisis of watching decline, people didn't know what the situation was. So they held tighter to the structures. Let's just do it better. Let's just try a different curriculum. Let's just whatever, try a different type of worship. We we clung to the church structures and we continued to move the church embodiment away from what does it mean to follow Jesus in my everyday life? And I think Covid broke open that exhaustion for our leaders, that lack of spiritual practices, that lack of like, God, are you feeding me spirit? Where are you at in my life? And so we I'll just say a couple of things. I think we at Luther Seminary are taking it seriously about what does it mean to equip the leaders in our programs, both degree and non-degree, in spiritual practices, dwelling in the word, having conversations like being able to say, how are you spiritually and how is it going and what do you need and how can we accompany you in that? But also the ability of like, how are you making spiritual meaning and of literally letting each other ourselves as leaders and those that are a part of our community say, I'm in a crisis and I don't know where God is. My grandkid has terminal cancer. He's 17. I have a really complicated relationship with the church, and you're the only community that lets me bring my real question to the table and not give me a fake answer. But you pray for me. You let me talk about it. Right? And I think, what would it mean for our leaders of spiritual communities, um, to actually be walking the walk, have community to do that deeper spiritual meaning making in their own life, and be willing to say they don't have it all together for others and invite them into the same practices with each other. So I think there's a call to a deeper sense of accompanying in in a in a following of Jesus and meaning making in this time.

I would agree, Terri. And you know, I there's more. I'm curious right, because I haven't read the study, so I can't wait to read it. Uh, Dwight, because I, I'd love to hear, um, a little bit more about what, um, she's discovering. Um, but I do think there's this, um, deep spiritual longing really, in America right now. And I don't think, uh, that for many people that are traditional forms and practices, um, meet them where they're at spiritually. Um, and I can't help but wonder, right, if you are trained in a particular way of being church and that way, that form, uh, no longer really meets your deep spiritual needs. Um, that if you don't see any alternative or way of being church, then on, you know, in a way I can see how you could be feeling like you're a hypocrite because this is not, um, this particular way of of, uh, of practicing your faith and leading others in practicing their faith, um, simply isn't meeting you where you're at. And so I can't help but wonder if for some clergy that might that, um, that departure, if you will, um, is a way of of them acknowledging that okay for for you community this this is meeting your your spiritual needs. But it it no longer is meeting mine. And I don't have another way of figuring out how to connect with God or, um, express my faith in a, in a Christian community. And so I, I'm going to leave and honor you so that you can continue your gathering. Um, and in your meeting together in the way that that works for you. Um, and I need to go figure out what that looks like for me. Uh, and to me, you know, if if you feel like that is your only alternative, I can see how, um, how that could be playing out. Um, but I also want to read more because, um, I, you know, I'd love to learn more. About what? what they're people are saying specifically. Dwight, what are your thoughts on it?

I would agree, Terri. And you know, I there's more. I'm curious right, because I haven't read the study, so I can't wait to read it. Uh, Dwight, because I, I'd love to hear, um, a little bit more about what, um, she's discovering. Um, but I do think there's this, um, deep spiritual longing really, in America right now. And I don't think, uh, that for many people that are traditional forms and practices, um, meet them where they're at spiritually. Um, and I can't help but wonder, right, if you are trained in a particular way of being church and that way, that form, uh, no longer really meets your deep spiritual needs. Um, that if you don't see any alternative or way of being church, then on, you know, in a way I can see how you could be feeling like you're a hypocrite because this is not, um, this particular way of of, uh, of practicing your faith and leading others in practicing their faith, um, simply isn't meeting you where you're at. And so I can't help but wonder if for some clergy that might that, um, that departure, if you will, um, is a way of of them acknowledging that okay for for you community this this is meeting your your spiritual needs. But it it no longer is meeting mine. And I don't have another way of figuring out how to connect with God or, um, express my faith in a, in a Christian community. And so I, I'm going to leave and honor you so that you can continue your gathering. Um, and in your meeting together in the way that that works for you. Um, and I need to go figure out what that looks like for me. Uh, and to me, you know, if if you feel like that is your only alternative, I can see how, um, how that could be playing out. Um, but I also want to read more because, um, I, you know, I'd love to learn more. About what? what they're people are saying specifically. Dwight, what are your thoughts on it?

Yeah, I think it's fascinating because to me it's it speaks to the deeper theological crisis. I think that's taking place right now around questions of gospel and culture. Um, to the extent to which the church doesn't have a really clear and vibrant and faithful alternative theological story. And instead of practices through which that story is embodied, then from the culture, the surrounding culture, then then it's very easy to say, well, why would I be trying to prop up this religious institution that isn't really connecting? Um, so I'm, I think there's really important work that the church needs to do in this season around theological identity. around what its story is, what is the gospel for our time? How is it different from the other competing stories that are out there in the culture? And then what are the practices by which that actually gets embodied, not just as a set of ideas or formal doctrine or an institution, but really in daily life? How do we live differently because of the difference the gospel makes? And I think that's amazing work. I think it's exciting work, and it honestly hasn't been the primary focus of many churches and certainly church systems for for quite some time.

Yeah, I think it's fascinating because to me it's it speaks to the deeper theological crisis. I think that's taking place right now around questions of gospel and culture. Um, to the extent to which the church doesn't have a really clear and vibrant and faithful alternative theological story. And instead of practices through which that story is embodied, then from the culture, the surrounding culture, then then it's very easy to say, well, why would I be trying to prop up this religious institution that isn't really connecting? Um, so I'm, I think there's really important work that the church needs to do in this season around theological identity. around what its story is, what is the gospel for our time? How is it different from the other competing stories that are out there in the culture? And then what are the practices by which that actually gets embodied, not just as a set of ideas or formal doctrine or an institution, but really in daily life? How do we live differently because of the difference the gospel makes? And I think that's amazing work. I think it's exciting work, and it honestly hasn't been the primary focus of many churches and certainly church systems for for quite some time.

Yeah, Dwight, I want to pick up on that. I think there is also speaking to a reality that the call to lead Christian communities right now is not the same as what it was 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, I was at a retirement for one of my colleagues yesterday, and I have another one next week. And I think about in those two just two snippets of people that came into ministry, they've had to reinvent how they lead, the kind of ways they engage people in meaningful ministry many times over their 30 plus years. And that's exhausting. And I think to your point, Alicia, some folks are like, I don't have one more reinvention in me. And and so it's okay to then part ways, but we're in a time of different kind of leadership is needed. I agree with you, Dwight. That's way deeper and more, uh, theological. It's not just going to be answered by a new structure.

Yeah, Dwight, I want to pick up on that. I think there is also speaking to a reality that the call to lead Christian communities right now is not the same as what it was 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, I was at a retirement for one of my colleagues yesterday, and I have another one next week. And I think about in those two just two snippets of people that came into ministry, they've had to reinvent how they lead, the kind of ways they engage people in meaningful ministry many times over their 30 plus years. And that's exhausting. And I think to your point, Alicia, some folks are like, I don't have one more reinvention in me. And and so it's okay to then part ways, but we're in a time of different kind of leadership is needed. I agree with you, Dwight. That's way deeper and more, uh, theological. It's not just going to be answered by a new structure.

Yes. Well, thank you all so much for these amazing questions and comments. Um, we love being able to to think about them ourselves and respond. So please keep them coming in.

Yes. Well, thank you all so much for these amazing questions and comments. Um, we love being able to to think about them ourselves and respond. So please keep them coming in.

And to those of you tuning in today, thank you for joining us for this episode of Pivot. And you can always help us spread the word about pivot. You can press the like button or, and, or share this with other people, and you can catch us on the video on YouTube as well.

And to those of you tuning in today, thank you for joining us for this episode of Pivot. And you can always help us spread the word about pivot. You can press the like button or, and, or share this with other people, and you can catch us on the video on YouTube as well.

And finally, the best compliment is to share a Pivot with a friend. So until next time, this is Dwight Zscheile, Terri Elton, and Alicia Granholm signing off. See you next week.

And finally, the best compliment is to share a Pivot with a friend. So until next time, this is Dwight Zscheile, Terri Elton, and Alicia Granholm signing off. See you next week.

The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead . Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead. org.

The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead . Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead. org.