It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved child and that Jesus has called you into his massive mission to heal the world.

It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved child and that Jesus has called you into his massive mission to heal the world.

God, where are you? There are times in life when we feel like God is so near. We just sense his presence right here with us. And there are times when it feels like he's incredibly far away. We received a prayer request from, you know, someone and he's just on our hearts. Jeremy. As we're longing for him, he's expressed that he feels the distance and he wants to turn and be close to God again. And he just just feels like he doesn't quite know how to do that. What would you how would you encourage his heart?

God, where are you? There are times in life when we feel like God is so near. We just sense his presence right here with us. And there are times when it feels like he's incredibly far away. We received a prayer request from, you know, someone and he's just on our hearts. Jeremy. As we're longing for him, he's expressed that he feels the distance and he wants to turn and be close to God again. And he just just feels like he doesn't quite know how to do that. What would you how would you encourage his heart?

Well, I think I mean, I think you've you've already done so a bit by the simple reminder that what he's experiencing. Of course, I don't know the details, but That divine distance, or divine silence is something every Christian grapples with. I mean, he's not alone. And I guess that should be the first point of comfort. I mean, this is something we all face. Isaiah. Isaiah himself in Isaiah 45 makes a statement. I come back to time and time and time again. He says, surely you are a God who hides yourself, which is a very disturbing and yet honest look at the way God manages the world. Because you're absolutely right. There are times when God's presence is is very nearly palpable. And then there are times it just feels like your prayers are bouncing off the ceiling and nobody's listening. And all I can say to that, and sadly, I have the same experience as everyone else with This is God wastes nothing, and there is work that is done in the soul in those close devotional moments when everything is running right. In fact, I remember a friend telling me the day he told his spiritual director, man, I just feel like God is really close to me right now. God is. God. You know, like just right there, immediate. And I can feel it all in. The spiritual director sort of patted him on the head and said, oh, Mark, that's good. Enjoy it while it lasts. And didn't mean it in a discouraging way. Meant it in the sense that there there is work that is done in those moments when God feels close. But there is also great work that is done in the human soul when God is silent. And God, of course, knows this. God knows where fickle creatures we ebb, we flow. And I think there is, even though when we say it out loud, the minute I say it, we're going to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know this. But still in our hearts there is this sense that a feeling that the Christian walk, the life of Christ, is supposed to be all mountaintops, like we're supposed to be feeling a particular thing all the time. It's supposed to be that moment when we stand in church with our hands raised and the music playing and the tears streaming down, and that's what it's supposed to be all the time. And so every time life happens and it doesn't feel that way, we feel like we have failed. Like we're distant, like we're and that's not necessarily the case. I continue to go back to Brother Lawrence, that Carmelite monk in that French monastery in the late Reformation, and he's just miserable because they're making him do the dishes, wash the dishes and repair the clothes and do the sewing and things like that, instead of doing all the fun monk stuff, whatever that is. And and he has to make peace with the fact that he has this statement. I actually I have it written out in framed sitting above my kitchen sink. Dear Lord, make me a saint in the doing of the dishes and the preparing of the meals that sometimes that's where we meet God. Yes, it's lovely to meet God in the praise and worship service, but God also meets us in the doing of the dishes, meets us in the silence of our hearts, meets us in the mowing of the lawn, meets us in in all those kinds of places too, and does a very unique kind of work.

Well, I think I mean, I think you've you've already done so a bit by the simple reminder that what he's experiencing. Of course, I don't know the details, but That divine distance, or divine silence is something every Christian grapples with. I mean, he's not alone. And I guess that should be the first point of comfort. I mean, this is something we all face. Isaiah. Isaiah himself in Isaiah 45 makes a statement. I come back to time and time and time again. He says, surely you are a God who hides yourself, which is a very disturbing and yet honest look at the way God manages the world. Because you're absolutely right. There are times when God's presence is is very nearly palpable. And then there are times it just feels like your prayers are bouncing off the ceiling and nobody's listening. And all I can say to that, and sadly, I have the same experience as everyone else with This is God wastes nothing, and there is work that is done in the soul in those close devotional moments when everything is running right. In fact, I remember a friend telling me the day he told his spiritual director, man, I just feel like God is really close to me right now. God is. God. You know, like just right there, immediate. And I can feel it all in. The spiritual director sort of patted him on the head and said, oh, Mark, that's good. Enjoy it while it lasts. And didn't mean it in a discouraging way. Meant it in the sense that there there is work that is done in those moments when God feels close. But there is also great work that is done in the human soul when God is silent. And God, of course, knows this. God knows where fickle creatures we ebb, we flow. And I think there is, even though when we say it out loud, the minute I say it, we're going to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know this. But still in our hearts there is this sense that a feeling that the Christian walk, the life of Christ, is supposed to be all mountaintops, like we're supposed to be feeling a particular thing all the time. It's supposed to be that moment when we stand in church with our hands raised and the music playing and the tears streaming down, and that's what it's supposed to be all the time. And so every time life happens and it doesn't feel that way, we feel like we have failed. Like we're distant, like we're and that's not necessarily the case. I continue to go back to Brother Lawrence, that Carmelite monk in that French monastery in the late Reformation, and he's just miserable because they're making him do the dishes, wash the dishes and repair the clothes and do the sewing and things like that, instead of doing all the fun monk stuff, whatever that is. And and he has to make peace with the fact that he has this statement. I actually I have it written out in framed sitting above my kitchen sink. Dear Lord, make me a saint in the doing of the dishes and the preparing of the meals that sometimes that's where we meet God. Yes, it's lovely to meet God in the praise and worship service, but God also meets us in the doing of the dishes, meets us in the silence of our hearts, meets us in the mowing of the lawn, meets us in in all those kinds of places too, and does a very unique kind of work.

Doctor Jeremy Grinnell, Bible scholar, answering questions. So this friend of ours has said that he's fallen away from God, so wandered off the path and is having a hard time getting back in. You know, I can relate with this from my own story. When I was very young, you know, I gave my life over to Jesus, and I thought I had to because at the time we were going to these meetings and you had to go up front in order to.

Doctor Jeremy Grinnell, Bible scholar, answering questions. So this friend of ours has said that he's fallen away from God, so wandered off the path and is having a hard time getting back in. You know, I can relate with this from my own story. When I was very young, you know, I gave my life over to Jesus, and I thought I had to because at the time we were going to these meetings and you had to go up front in order to.

That's right. Walk the aisle. Yeah. Throw your stick on the fire. Yep.

That's right. Walk the aisle. Yeah. Throw your stick on the fire. Yep.

Yep. I had to go up front in front of everybody and show everybody that I was earnest about giving my life over to Jesus, and it just felt like something I had to do. You know, this was something I had to achieve, and I couldn't get over my embarrassment as a kid to do that. And so it was on the playground and this, this buddy Lenny Melberg, he just gave me a beautiful on ramp into the kingdom. He said, Perry, I hope that someday you can become saved. And it was just a it was an expression. It was a longing for me to be in the family. And that just in a moment, that was the bridge to walk in. And I just feel like our friend needs an on ramp back in.

Yep. I had to go up front in front of everybody and show everybody that I was earnest about giving my life over to Jesus, and it just felt like something I had to do. You know, this was something I had to achieve, and I couldn't get over my embarrassment as a kid to do that. And so it was on the playground and this, this buddy Lenny Melberg, he just gave me a beautiful on ramp into the kingdom. He said, Perry, I hope that someday you can become saved. And it was just a it was an expression. It was a longing for me to be in the family. And that just in a moment, that was the bridge to walk in. And I just feel like our friend needs an on ramp back in.

Well, I think there's a couple of thoughts is, first of all, you may feel far from God because of your own choices or just because the divine silence happens to be that moment. But do realize God has not forgotten or walked away from you. God is still there. I mean, I hate to be trite about it, but there's the, you know, the old footprints story, the footprints on the beach. There's great truth in that. And again, I think God knows we're fickle creatures. God knows we have rebellious parts of us that have not been healed. And God does not hate us because of that.

Well, I think there's a couple of thoughts is, first of all, you may feel far from God because of your own choices or just because the divine silence happens to be that moment. But do realize God has not forgotten or walked away from you. God is still there. I mean, I hate to be trite about it, but there's the, you know, the old footprints story, the footprints on the beach. There's great truth in that. And again, I think God knows we're fickle creatures. God knows we have rebellious parts of us that have not been healed. And God does not hate us because of that.

I'm so grateful that we're talking a lot about feelings, just having a lot of conversations about feelings. I recently was just asking God for wisdom for a situation, and I was waiting for him to tell me what that wisdom was, to show me what I needed to do in regards to a situation. And I did not feel like he laid that plan out in front of me. But I feel like a plan is unfolding of his design.

I'm so grateful that we're talking a lot about feelings, just having a lot of conversations about feelings. I recently was just asking God for wisdom for a situation, and I was waiting for him to tell me what that wisdom was, to show me what I needed to do in regards to a situation. And I did not feel like he laid that plan out in front of me. But I feel like a plan is unfolding of his design.

Yeah, I think there's a misapprehension at times about what faith constitutes. You know, in our in our caller, our friend here, I think he may be it sounds like he has a heart to follow. I mean, he wouldn't be he wouldn't have written in if he didn't. He wants to, but he doesn't know how he's following. It feels faint. And I think we have to realize that faith following Christ is not. It's not going to feel the same all the time. And in fact, we tend to think of faith as this sort of leap. You know, we're just going to make this leap. And if I'm not willing to make the leap, I've got this apprehension like that, that I'm a failure. And that is not actually what the way the writer of Hebrews talks about faith. He talks about faith, and we always forget the first word as the evidence of things not seen. Yeah, there is an unknown about faith. We're stepping into a place we don't know or we haven't seen before. But it's not like we have no experience with this God. Our commitment to God isn't something necessarily that we feel at every single moment. That would be lovely. But sometimes you're looking back and saying, I made this decision back there, the waters of my baptism or on the playground as a child, or where I made this commitment, I threw the stick on the fire. I don't feel it right now, but I know I made that commitment back there, and I'm going to live in the light of the commitment I made and pardon my French, you know, darn the feelings that I have right now. So faith has this sense of looking backward as much as it looks forward. That's partly why those characters are picked out in the book of Hebrews, who all looked for something they didn't actually get to see, and the faith consisted of walking with this God. And that's why their stories are there. Because even when we don't feel God's presence or can't see where it's going, we have the lives of these heroes surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, says the writer of Hebrews. And their stories are there to help us remember and see that even though I can't feel it right now, even though I don't see it, and even though I may have made some horrific mistakes, that makes me feel very distant from God, I have the lives of these these equally broken people who apparently loved God and were loved by God and lived in that light even in the midst of their doubts and their failures. And I think we need to keep that in front of us, because we spend a lot of time, I think we spend a lot of time shooting on ourselves. I should do this. I should do that, I should, I should, I should, I should and forget that God just desires to meet us in doing dishes and looking at a sunrise and sitting in a studio talking on the radio. God wants to meet us where we are, and whether that's a set of feelings that we have high, exalted feelings, or whether it's merely an intellectual awareness like I'm a child of God, I don't feel like it at the moment, but Scripture says it, and I'm going to choose to believe God's speech over my own feelings. All of those are faith. Faith doesn't look like one thing. Faith is something you exercise where you're at with what you have, and it's not always going to look the same. And the very desire to come back is honoring to God. That's the on ramp. You know, it shows the spirit is still at work in this young man's heart. He has not fallen away. God is still there. He may not feel it, but that's not the measurement.

Yeah, I think there's a misapprehension at times about what faith constitutes. You know, in our in our caller, our friend here, I think he may be it sounds like he has a heart to follow. I mean, he wouldn't be he wouldn't have written in if he didn't. He wants to, but he doesn't know how he's following. It feels faint. And I think we have to realize that faith following Christ is not. It's not going to feel the same all the time. And in fact, we tend to think of faith as this sort of leap. You know, we're just going to make this leap. And if I'm not willing to make the leap, I've got this apprehension like that, that I'm a failure. And that is not actually what the way the writer of Hebrews talks about faith. He talks about faith, and we always forget the first word as the evidence of things not seen. Yeah, there is an unknown about faith. We're stepping into a place we don't know or we haven't seen before. But it's not like we have no experience with this God. Our commitment to God isn't something necessarily that we feel at every single moment. That would be lovely. But sometimes you're looking back and saying, I made this decision back there, the waters of my baptism or on the playground as a child, or where I made this commitment, I threw the stick on the fire. I don't feel it right now, but I know I made that commitment back there, and I'm going to live in the light of the commitment I made and pardon my French, you know, darn the feelings that I have right now. So faith has this sense of looking backward as much as it looks forward. That's partly why those characters are picked out in the book of Hebrews, who all looked for something they didn't actually get to see, and the faith consisted of walking with this God. And that's why their stories are there. Because even when we don't feel God's presence or can't see where it's going, we have the lives of these heroes surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, says the writer of Hebrews. And their stories are there to help us remember and see that even though I can't feel it right now, even though I don't see it, and even though I may have made some horrific mistakes, that makes me feel very distant from God, I have the lives of these these equally broken people who apparently loved God and were loved by God and lived in that light even in the midst of their doubts and their failures. And I think we need to keep that in front of us, because we spend a lot of time, I think we spend a lot of time shooting on ourselves. I should do this. I should do that, I should, I should, I should, I should and forget that God just desires to meet us in doing dishes and looking at a sunrise and sitting in a studio talking on the radio. God wants to meet us where we are, and whether that's a set of feelings that we have high, exalted feelings, or whether it's merely an intellectual awareness like I'm a child of God, I don't feel like it at the moment, but Scripture says it, and I'm going to choose to believe God's speech over my own feelings. All of those are faith. Faith doesn't look like one thing. Faith is something you exercise where you're at with what you have, and it's not always going to look the same. And the very desire to come back is honoring to God. That's the on ramp. You know, it shows the spirit is still at work in this young man's heart. He has not fallen away. God is still there. He may not feel it, but that's not the measurement.

If you know any bit of my story, you know that I have wrestled with depression throughout my life, on and off, and there have been times when I've wondered why, Lord, do I have to go through this? I remember saying to my dad, why is the why is the enemy being allowed to do this to me? Especially when we know that God is a good God and that he can heal and that he can help us. And so we do run into these kind of conundrums in our journeys. And Rhonda's got one. And she says in the Bible it says that God provides all we need. If this is true, why is it that people like me don't sleep? When medical professionals say we require 7 to 9 hours of sleep?

If you know any bit of my story, you know that I have wrestled with depression throughout my life, on and off, and there have been times when I've wondered why, Lord, do I have to go through this? I remember saying to my dad, why is the why is the enemy being allowed to do this to me? Especially when we know that God is a good God and that he can heal and that he can help us. And so we do run into these kind of conundrums in our journeys. And Rhonda's got one. And she says in the Bible it says that God provides all we need. If this is true, why is it that people like me don't sleep? When medical professionals say we require 7 to 9 hours of sleep?

Well, as a as a fellow insomniac, I have great sympathy for the question. And I think probably she is referencing Philippians four my God shall supply all your needs according to his riches and glory in Christ Jesus. Actually, I'm going to make the situation worse before I make it better. Even worse. Psalm 127 he God grants sleep to those he loves. Ouch, ouch, right? And so here I am, awake at 4:00 this morning, lying in my bed, staring at the ceiling, wondering if God loves me because I'm not asleep. I say that a little tongue in cheek, but I think at the first blush, you know. So I don't. I can't obviously speak to an answer why any given one of us sleeps or doesn't. I mean, that's just out of my Ken. But I do know this, that we do tend to read the Bible. We tend to over read the Bible as a book of promises. And there are promises in the Bible. But but not even every promise in the Bible is directed at us as individuals. So there is a bit of an exegetical piece to this. Like how do we how do we read the Bible? I remember trying to say this briefly, but I remember standing way back in my seminary days when I was representing the seminary at a convention, and I was standing next to my booth, and this was I was a seminary student. So these were the days when I knew everything. And and there are two pastors just happened to be having a conversation in front of me. And one of them was saying, like, yeah, I've got this lady in my church. Uh, she raised her son and he's abandoned the faith and walked away. And she's standing in front of me quoting the proverb, you know, train up a child in the way he should go. And when he was old, he won't depart from it. And she can't figure out why she did all this correctly. And now the Bible doesn't work. It lied to her. And what do I tell her? What do I say? And the other pastor looked at him and said, I don't know. It's a complete mystery. I just don't know. And I, as a seminary student, was standing there going, I know, I know, I know, I know because it's a proverb. Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he won't depart from it. That's proverbial. It's not a promise. It's what it's telling you. It's a trajectory about life. And so this difference in the Bible between promises and principles. There are things in the Bible that are said that talk about the nature and character of God, or the nature and character of being human, but are not necessarily 1 to 1 promises. So I don't know why God doesn't grants sleep to some people. I have a friend who can sleep anywhere. I mean, you just they close their eyes at a bus station and they're out cold. And I look at that with wonder, does that mean God doesn't love me? Not at all. What it means is the world is slopping over with brokenness because of the fall. My insomnia is one of those things, and for reasons perhaps known only to God, God does not step in and stop every piece of evil that happens. I mean, we know this existentially. You know, you're seeing it in Ukraine and Palestine All over the world, God does not stop all evil. And sometimes it's because God has given humans a will to exercise, and there's no point in giving someone a will if you're immediately going to step in and unwind that every time they make a bad choice. So there's that piece of it. If I drink a, you know, if I take a triple shot of espresso and then climb into bed, I'm probably not going to sleep. And that's not God's fault. Now, of course, I don't think that's what Ronda is referring to. But the point is, there's all kinds of brokenness and evil in the world that God, again, for reasons known only to God, God chooses to work through rather than simply remove. And of course, our archetypal example of this is Christ in Gethsemane, where he is, you know, saying, in essence, father, is this really how you're going to save the world? You're going to you're going to make an alliance with the enemy to kill the Messiah, an innocent man on a cross. You're going to countenance this, this legal atrocity, this injustice, and apparently some in some mystery. The answer is yes. By the death of the Messiah, the innocent Messiah, God is going to redeem the world. And so God is a God, though not responsible or culpable for any of the evil that happens, is big enough, strong enough, and good enough to use even the evil that happens to us, and the evil that we do to do good in the world, to change and form and make us closer to him. So perhaps, and I don't know this for Rhonda sake, any more than I know it for my own. Perhaps that sleeplessness is meant to teach something else. My God shall supply all your needs. And if there's one thing I have reached the conclusion of is it's. I'm a very bad judge of what my real needs are. I don't know what I really need. I may think sleep is the thing I need most, and I was certainly thinking that at four this morning, but maybe God knows something I didn't. Maybe I was supposed to be awake at 4 a.m. and praying for someone, or reflecting on something else.

Well, as a as a fellow insomniac, I have great sympathy for the question. And I think probably she is referencing Philippians four my God shall supply all your needs according to his riches and glory in Christ Jesus. Actually, I'm going to make the situation worse before I make it better. Even worse. Psalm 127 he God grants sleep to those he loves. Ouch, ouch, right? And so here I am, awake at 4:00 this morning, lying in my bed, staring at the ceiling, wondering if God loves me because I'm not asleep. I say that a little tongue in cheek, but I think at the first blush, you know. So I don't. I can't obviously speak to an answer why any given one of us sleeps or doesn't. I mean, that's just out of my Ken. But I do know this, that we do tend to read the Bible. We tend to over read the Bible as a book of promises. And there are promises in the Bible. But but not even every promise in the Bible is directed at us as individuals. So there is a bit of an exegetical piece to this. Like how do we how do we read the Bible? I remember trying to say this briefly, but I remember standing way back in my seminary days when I was representing the seminary at a convention, and I was standing next to my booth, and this was I was a seminary student. So these were the days when I knew everything. And and there are two pastors just happened to be having a conversation in front of me. And one of them was saying, like, yeah, I've got this lady in my church. Uh, she raised her son and he's abandoned the faith and walked away. And she's standing in front of me quoting the proverb, you know, train up a child in the way he should go. And when he was old, he won't depart from it. And she can't figure out why she did all this correctly. And now the Bible doesn't work. It lied to her. And what do I tell her? What do I say? And the other pastor looked at him and said, I don't know. It's a complete mystery. I just don't know. And I, as a seminary student, was standing there going, I know, I know, I know, I know because it's a proverb. Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he won't depart from it. That's proverbial. It's not a promise. It's what it's telling you. It's a trajectory about life. And so this difference in the Bible between promises and principles. There are things in the Bible that are said that talk about the nature and character of God, or the nature and character of being human, but are not necessarily 1 to 1 promises. So I don't know why God doesn't grants sleep to some people. I have a friend who can sleep anywhere. I mean, you just they close their eyes at a bus station and they're out cold. And I look at that with wonder, does that mean God doesn't love me? Not at all. What it means is the world is slopping over with brokenness because of the fall. My insomnia is one of those things, and for reasons perhaps known only to God, God does not step in and stop every piece of evil that happens. I mean, we know this existentially. You know, you're seeing it in Ukraine and Palestine All over the world, God does not stop all evil. And sometimes it's because God has given humans a will to exercise, and there's no point in giving someone a will if you're immediately going to step in and unwind that every time they make a bad choice. So there's that piece of it. If I drink a, you know, if I take a triple shot of espresso and then climb into bed, I'm probably not going to sleep. And that's not God's fault. Now, of course, I don't think that's what Ronda is referring to. But the point is, there's all kinds of brokenness and evil in the world that God, again, for reasons known only to God, God chooses to work through rather than simply remove. And of course, our archetypal example of this is Christ in Gethsemane, where he is, you know, saying, in essence, father, is this really how you're going to save the world? You're going to you're going to make an alliance with the enemy to kill the Messiah, an innocent man on a cross. You're going to countenance this, this legal atrocity, this injustice, and apparently some in some mystery. The answer is yes. By the death of the Messiah, the innocent Messiah, God is going to redeem the world. And so God is a God, though not responsible or culpable for any of the evil that happens, is big enough, strong enough, and good enough to use even the evil that happens to us, and the evil that we do to do good in the world, to change and form and make us closer to him. So perhaps, and I don't know this for Rhonda sake, any more than I know it for my own. Perhaps that sleeplessness is meant to teach something else. My God shall supply all your needs. And if there's one thing I have reached the conclusion of is it's. I'm a very bad judge of what my real needs are. I don't know what I really need. I may think sleep is the thing I need most, and I was certainly thinking that at four this morning, but maybe God knows something I didn't. Maybe I was supposed to be awake at 4 a.m. and praying for someone, or reflecting on something else.

I know for me, with my depression that there are promises that support promises. Yes, God will provide all my needs. It also says that when I am weak, then I am strong. You know, Paul says, three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. And Jesus said, no, I'm not going to take it away. But my grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. And so God has made me weak many times throughout my life with depression to grow me, to grow me in a way that I could never be grown through that pain.

I know for me, with my depression that there are promises that support promises. Yes, God will provide all my needs. It also says that when I am weak, then I am strong. You know, Paul says, three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. And Jesus said, no, I'm not going to take it away. But my grace is enough for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. And so God has made me weak many times throughout my life with depression to grow me, to grow me in a way that I could never be grown through that pain.

Suffering teaches lessons that affluence never can. Again, it's a bit of a mystery why God would make us or permit us to grow in this way. But I do know this God wastes nothing. Even the things that we think are just completely lost or completely screwed up. The brokenness of the world, just so deep and yet, remarkably, you see God working in it to do something greater and better. And there's a trust element there. You know, when I'm laying awake in, you know, in bed, feeling lost and forsaken and broken, there are things happening in my soul that the spirit is at work. If I will simply respond to God with, okay, God, what is going on here? What am I supposed to be learning or doing? What are you prompting and driving me toward? How are you using this? Whether it's an inconvenience or an outright horror, how are you using it to make me look more like your son? How are you using it to deepen my love for you and my walk with you? Those are the right questions to ask.

Suffering teaches lessons that affluence never can. Again, it's a bit of a mystery why God would make us or permit us to grow in this way. But I do know this God wastes nothing. Even the things that we think are just completely lost or completely screwed up. The brokenness of the world, just so deep and yet, remarkably, you see God working in it to do something greater and better. And there's a trust element there. You know, when I'm laying awake in, you know, in bed, feeling lost and forsaken and broken, there are things happening in my soul that the spirit is at work. If I will simply respond to God with, okay, God, what is going on here? What am I supposed to be learning or doing? What are you prompting and driving me toward? How are you using this? Whether it's an inconvenience or an outright horror, how are you using it to make me look more like your son? How are you using it to deepen my love for you and my walk with you? Those are the right questions to ask.

And to know that in those moments, Jesus is praying for you. Interceding perfect prayers of the Holy Spirit is praying for you and just loving us with a depth of love that that we can't even imagine when we feel like we're not loved.

And to know that in those moments, Jesus is praying for you. Interceding perfect prayers of the Holy Spirit is praying for you and just loving us with a depth of love that that we can't even imagine when we feel like we're not loved.

I think when our questions are the biggest, when we really don't have the answers is when trust The rubber meets the road in our trust relationship with God. I know this, I know this for sure, for sure, for sure. Whether you're sleeping or whether you're awake, you're loved. He sees you, he knows you, he's with you, and he loves you. God can work with that. I have a tendency to see what is lacking. It's a special gift. I can see what's not there. And so often when I feel God calling me into something, I feel ill equipped, like. Lord, come on, you know that I'm not articulate. You know that I don't have bright, brilliant thoughts. I'm kind of your girl next door.

I think when our questions are the biggest, when we really don't have the answers is when trust The rubber meets the road in our trust relationship with God. I know this, I know this for sure, for sure, for sure. Whether you're sleeping or whether you're awake, you're loved. He sees you, he knows you, he's with you, and he loves you. God can work with that. I have a tendency to see what is lacking. It's a special gift. I can see what's not there. And so often when I feel God calling me into something, I feel ill equipped, like. Lord, come on, you know that I'm not articulate. You know that I don't have bright, brilliant thoughts. I'm kind of your girl next door.

Do you feel ill and ill equipped, or do you just feel ill equipped?

Do you feel ill and ill equipped, or do you just feel ill equipped?

I feel lacking, okay. Like, I don't have much to offer. And I just feel like, God, just pick somebody else who's got more gifts. Pick somebody who's got better skills. Pick somebody who you know has got something to work with.

I feel lacking, okay. Like, I don't have much to offer. And I just feel like, God, just pick somebody else who's got more gifts. Pick somebody who's got better skills. Pick somebody who you know has got something to work with.

You feel unqualified, I do. Why? Because I'm.

You feel unqualified, I do. Why? Because I'm.

Unqualified.

Unqualified.

Okay. All right. I was going to say something nice, but.

Okay. All right. I was going to say something nice, but.

All right, go ahead. I'll let you say something nice.

All right, go ahead. I'll let you say something nice.

Well, you're a very gifted person, so it's it's it kind of makes me go. Hmm. I wonder why she struggles with that. Because you obviously have a lot of gifts.

Well, you're a very gifted person, so it's it's it kind of makes me go. Hmm. I wonder why she struggles with that. Because you obviously have a lot of gifts.

I was there was a moment when I was driving, I was speaking at an event, and I was driving to that event, and this thought drops into my mind as I'm driving with my my talks all prepared, you know, for the weekend. The thought came into my mind, who are you to be going and speaking at this event? You know, just I'm so aware of what is missing and what's not there and of my lack. But I think that's something that God can work with. I'm reminded in Scripture about the time that, you know, there are thousands of people who had gathered to hear Jesus. They were just hanging on his every word. But it was getting late, and the disciples were like, we should probably send them on their way. Was it Philip who had said it would take more than a half year's wages to buy enough bread to feed all these people, even just to give them one bite? But then another one of the disciples says, well, here's this boy. He's got five small barley loaves, and he's got two small fish. But I mean, how far is that going to go? And that is something that Jesus could work with. Jesus took these small little bits. This definitely not going to feed 5000 people. He took what was there. He took what was available. And he fed 5000 men. And there were basketfuls left over. And so the next time God taps you on the shoulder and he says, all right, I'm sending you in, you know, instead of telling him to tap somebody else. Maybe just say, this is all I have. Because if we give God what we do have, I think I think he can work with that.

I was there was a moment when I was driving, I was speaking at an event, and I was driving to that event, and this thought drops into my mind as I'm driving with my my talks all prepared, you know, for the weekend. The thought came into my mind, who are you to be going and speaking at this event? You know, just I'm so aware of what is missing and what's not there and of my lack. But I think that's something that God can work with. I'm reminded in Scripture about the time that, you know, there are thousands of people who had gathered to hear Jesus. They were just hanging on his every word. But it was getting late, and the disciples were like, we should probably send them on their way. Was it Philip who had said it would take more than a half year's wages to buy enough bread to feed all these people, even just to give them one bite? But then another one of the disciples says, well, here's this boy. He's got five small barley loaves, and he's got two small fish. But I mean, how far is that going to go? And that is something that Jesus could work with. Jesus took these small little bits. This definitely not going to feed 5000 people. He took what was there. He took what was available. And he fed 5000 men. And there were basketfuls left over. And so the next time God taps you on the shoulder and he says, all right, I'm sending you in, you know, instead of telling him to tap somebody else. Maybe just say, this is all I have. Because if we give God what we do have, I think I think he can work with that.

Well, I got that call. Yeah, that call. That call you don't want to get. It was January of let's see, 2022. Yeah. Got a call FaceTime call right after the show. It was a Friday and it was Taylor. And he always does FaceTime. And he was his face was just I mean my dad's heart just broke. His face was contorted. He was crying. Bri has cancer.

Well, I got that call. Yeah, that call. That call you don't want to get. It was January of let's see, 2022. Yeah. Got a call FaceTime call right after the show. It was a Friday and it was Taylor. And he always does FaceTime. And he was his face was just I mean my dad's heart just broke. His face was contorted. He was crying. Bri has cancer.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness.

And man that's that's not something as a dad that you want to you want to hear.

And man that's that's not something as a dad that you want to you want to hear.

And Bri is his wife, right?

And Bri is his wife, right?

So she had. Oh, it was non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. I believe There's Hodgkin's lymphoma and anyway had it. And so that kicked off a year of of just uncertainty, great uncertainty because not everybody I mean, cancer is that scary word. And they went through that. We went through it with them. And Fear Is Not My Future became their song.

So she had. Oh, it was non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. I believe There's Hodgkin's lymphoma and anyway had it. And so that kicked off a year of of just uncertainty, great uncertainty because not everybody I mean, cancer is that scary word. And they went through that. We went through it with them. And Fear Is Not My Future became their song.

Come on. We gotta say it out loud sometimes. I mean, the fear can feel overwhelming. My mind is so well practiced, like the pathway of what if and all the worst case scenarios. Man, I know that path. I know that route far too well. But we need to speak out. You know, fear is not my future. I belong to Jesus. The possibilities are endless. It's not just this one well-worn path of everything that could go wrong. The possibilities are endless.

Come on. We gotta say it out loud sometimes. I mean, the fear can feel overwhelming. My mind is so well practiced, like the pathway of what if and all the worst case scenarios. Man, I know that path. I know that route far too well. But we need to speak out. You know, fear is not my future. I belong to Jesus. The possibilities are endless. It's not just this one well-worn path of everything that could go wrong. The possibilities are endless.

Yes, with God, all things are possible. Doesn't mean we're necessarily going to be healed in this life. It could be the ultimate healing. But listen to these lyrics. They made it their song. Fear is not my future. You are Lord. Sickness is not my story. It's my reality. But it's not my story. It's not my identity. You are heartbreak's, not my home. You are. Death is not the end. You are. That's where their faith was. Not that Bri. They wanted her to get better. We did. But they knew that death is the beginning of the real story, which no one on earth can tell, and in which every chapter is better than the one before.

Yes, with God, all things are possible. Doesn't mean we're necessarily going to be healed in this life. It could be the ultimate healing. But listen to these lyrics. They made it their song. Fear is not my future. You are Lord. Sickness is not my story. It's my reality. But it's not my story. It's not my identity. You are heartbreak's, not my home. You are. Death is not the end. You are. That's where their faith was. Not that Bri. They wanted her to get better. We did. But they knew that death is the beginning of the real story, which no one on earth can tell, and in which every chapter is better than the one before.

And when we're overcome with fear, you know, I think all the time my brain likes to to separate things and choose space and polarize things. Right. Like. But I think that the journey of walking with God is being aware of our circumstances, speaking out what we want. He wants us to come to him with what we want. Like obviously, you prayed for Bree's healing, right? God, heal her here and now. You know, give her long life. And also, knowing that he's good and that he's not letting go of her. However, this shakes down.

And when we're overcome with fear, you know, I think all the time my brain likes to to separate things and choose space and polarize things. Right. Like. But I think that the journey of walking with God is being aware of our circumstances, speaking out what we want. He wants us to come to him with what we want. Like obviously, you prayed for Bree's healing, right? God, heal her here and now. You know, give her long life. And also, knowing that he's good and that he's not letting go of her. However, this shakes down.

We can't put our hope in. You know, I hope she gets better. We want her to, but we can't put our hope there. That's what we knew. And she did recover. And. And this year, she celebrated two years of cancer free. Two years.

We can't put our hope in. You know, I hope she gets better. We want her to, but we can't put our hope there. That's what we knew. And she did recover. And. And this year, she celebrated two years of cancer free. Two years.

Praise God.

Praise God.

Cancer free for Bree. But I just heard about a kid who. He lost his mom. She got sick when he was 13. She was gone in two weeks. Gone in two weeks. So I love this last part. Death is not the end. You are. Death is a reality. But in Christ, death is never the end. Jesus is. It would be so nice to see a miracle. I was talking with my son Taylor the other night, and he was telling me about, you know, just some of the people that he works with. He's a therapist. And just telling me about this one person, and and it just made me hurt so much. And I was just thinking about things that I've been praying about in my own life for a long time. And I just said, Taylor, man, I just really would love to see God do a miracle. Like, for that, for that person you're talking about, that God would just instantaneously heal them. It would be so encouraging. And I get it. You know, God doesn't do biblical sized miracles every single day. You know, they're kind of like the highlight reel in the Bible. They don't happen every day, but it'd just be nice to. It would be so encouraging to see God do something off the scales. Awesome. Just for encouragement. Do you ever feel like that?

Cancer free for Bree. But I just heard about a kid who. He lost his mom. She got sick when he was 13. She was gone in two weeks. Gone in two weeks. So I love this last part. Death is not the end. You are. Death is a reality. But in Christ, death is never the end. Jesus is. It would be so nice to see a miracle. I was talking with my son Taylor the other night, and he was telling me about, you know, just some of the people that he works with. He's a therapist. And just telling me about this one person, and and it just made me hurt so much. And I was just thinking about things that I've been praying about in my own life for a long time. And I just said, Taylor, man, I just really would love to see God do a miracle. Like, for that, for that person you're talking about, that God would just instantaneously heal them. It would be so encouraging. And I get it. You know, God doesn't do biblical sized miracles every single day. You know, they're kind of like the highlight reel in the Bible. They don't happen every day, but it'd just be nice to. It would be so encouraging to see God do something off the scales. Awesome. Just for encouragement. Do you ever feel like that?

Oh yeah, I feel that. I feel like that in my own life. There's a prayer that I've been praying, asking God for a miracle. And I don't know. I don't know if this pushes against what you're sharing, but I have come to believe in my own life when I don't get the miracle that I'm hoping for, that it's no less of a miracle that God sustains me through long periods of time. It's a different kind of miracle. Yeah, but it's still pretty amazing.

Oh yeah, I feel that. I feel like that in my own life. There's a prayer that I've been praying, asking God for a miracle. And I don't know. I don't know if this pushes against what you're sharing, but I have come to believe in my own life when I don't get the miracle that I'm hoping for, that it's no less of a miracle that God sustains me through long periods of time. It's a different kind of miracle. Yeah, but it's still pretty amazing.

Yeah. The thing that Taylor said to me, well, look at what God did for Bree. Bree went through cancer, and he said, I don't think it's less of a miracle that she went through that chemo treatment for however many months, 6 or 7 months. And she's just come up on two years cancer free. And yeah, he's right. God. God does many things in different ways. He healed Bri. He sustains us. You're right. He sustains us. And so yesterday in worship, I was just pouring out my heart about just wanting to be encouraged. And I have a suffering friend in my life and and I was able to just, I don't know, just mourn the fact that he's not better yet and yet at the same time, feel God's support and comfort in my grief. And that was a miracle right there. When we come together with God's people and we experience his presence, and he gives us what we need, not what we want. That's what I think I hear you saying.

Yeah. The thing that Taylor said to me, well, look at what God did for Bree. Bree went through cancer, and he said, I don't think it's less of a miracle that she went through that chemo treatment for however many months, 6 or 7 months. And she's just come up on two years cancer free. And yeah, he's right. God. God does many things in different ways. He healed Bri. He sustains us. You're right. He sustains us. And so yesterday in worship, I was just pouring out my heart about just wanting to be encouraged. And I have a suffering friend in my life and and I was able to just, I don't know, just mourn the fact that he's not better yet and yet at the same time, feel God's support and comfort in my grief. And that was a miracle right there. When we come together with God's people and we experience his presence, and he gives us what we need, not what we want. That's what I think I hear you saying.

I think any time God is present with us, it's a bit of a miracle. It's a bit miraculous. So whether he is sustaining me through something that I wouldn't be able to make on my own, I know I wouldn't be able to make it on my own. Or he's radically, in a moment, changing my circumstances. I still think, you know, either way, it's a bit miraculous.

I think any time God is present with us, it's a bit of a miracle. It's a bit miraculous. So whether he is sustaining me through something that I wouldn't be able to make on my own, I know I wouldn't be able to make it on my own. Or he's radically, in a moment, changing my circumstances. I still think, you know, either way, it's a bit miraculous.

Yeah. And I guess for me, it was being in God's presence with God's people and experiencing his comfort that helped me realize this is what I was made for. This is what I need. I can trust him for the things that are not yet.

Yeah. And I guess for me, it was being in God's presence with God's people and experiencing his comfort that helped me realize this is what I was made for. This is what I need. I can trust him for the things that are not yet.

Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life journey with you. The content from the Perry and Shawna podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Shawna. Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800 968 8930. And please subscribe.

Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life journey with you. The content from the Perry and Shawna podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Shawna. Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800 968 8930. And please subscribe.