It's the Perry and Shaunna podcast on the real life journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved child and that Jesus has called you into his massive mission to heal the world.

It's the Perry and Shaunna podcast on the real life journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved child and that Jesus has called you into his massive mission to heal the world.

Trusting God in the unknown. It was last Thursday. I went to Zeeland Hospital to get some blood work. When I walked in there, there was this woman who was completely losing it. Stress. Outbursts of anger. Everyone in the lobby could hear her. Security was there. I checked in, got my blood drawn, and as I walked out of Zeeland Hospital, this woman was sitting on the bench talking to someone on the phone. She had cooled off, but I could tell she was still troubled. I started back home and I was about a mile from the hospital, and I felt prompted to go back. No, Lord, that can't be you. I turned my Rav4 around and I thought to myself, I can't believe I'm doing this. Lord, you're going to have to show me the way, you know? And it turned into an amazing open door to bring light and hope into a stranger's life. Who really needed it? You know, and it's because I've learned to hear when God speaking to me in real time, the Holy Spirit. Just. You get that feeling. But it's it's kind of a thought in your mind. And Steve, talk about the prophet Samuel learning to hear God's voice at a very young age and then going on to share God's Word with others.

Trusting God in the unknown. It was last Thursday. I went to Zeeland Hospital to get some blood work. When I walked in there, there was this woman who was completely losing it. Stress. Outbursts of anger. Everyone in the lobby could hear her. Security was there. I checked in, got my blood drawn, and as I walked out of Zeeland Hospital, this woman was sitting on the bench talking to someone on the phone. She had cooled off, but I could tell she was still troubled. I started back home and I was about a mile from the hospital, and I felt prompted to go back. No, Lord, that can't be you. I turned my Rav4 around and I thought to myself, I can't believe I'm doing this. Lord, you're going to have to show me the way, you know? And it turned into an amazing open door to bring light and hope into a stranger's life. Who really needed it? You know, and it's because I've learned to hear when God speaking to me in real time, the Holy Spirit. Just. You get that feeling. But it's it's kind of a thought in your mind. And Steve, talk about the prophet Samuel learning to hear God's voice at a very young age and then going on to share God's Word with others.

Yeah, I love the story of Samuel because we we think that he's probably elementary school age when he has God kind of speak to him at the very first time. And if you know the story and many of us do. Uh, he hears a voice. He's not accustomed to hearing the voice of God, so he automatically assumes that it's Eli who is kind of like his his house dad, his his ministry mentor. And so he he keeps running into his room and saying like, well, here I am. You called me and after a couple rounds of that, Eli says, no, no, that's the Lord. And I want you to try this next time. Speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And I had a chance to do a spiritual formation retreat a couple of weekends ago, and I remember asking myself and the gathered attendees, what would our days look like if every morning started with, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And if we did a check in throughout the day like, oh, it's lunchtime, instead of just saying like, hey, Lord, bless these nachos, also say speak, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And some psychologists tell us that all of us have like a lull in the mid-afternoon, like that 2 to 4 window. And we're having, like our post-lunch sugar crash and we've run out of momentum. That's another good time to just check in and say, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. Um, sometimes I've tried to pray that prayer before I go to bed to be able to say like, Hey God, you don't promise to speak to our dreams. But there's a template in the scriptures of you speaking through our dreams. If there's something that you want to speak to me subconsciously, speak, Lord, I'm listening. But a world that is so full of chatter. Sometimes it's hard for us to say, like, Lord, I am actually listening because there's so many other kind of data points that are hitting us.

Yeah, I love the story of Samuel because we we think that he's probably elementary school age when he has God kind of speak to him at the very first time. And if you know the story and many of us do. Uh, he hears a voice. He's not accustomed to hearing the voice of God, so he automatically assumes that it's Eli who is kind of like his his house dad, his his ministry mentor. And so he he keeps running into his room and saying like, well, here I am. You called me and after a couple rounds of that, Eli says, no, no, that's the Lord. And I want you to try this next time. Speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And I had a chance to do a spiritual formation retreat a couple of weekends ago, and I remember asking myself and the gathered attendees, what would our days look like if every morning started with, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And if we did a check in throughout the day like, oh, it's lunchtime, instead of just saying like, hey, Lord, bless these nachos, also say speak, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. And some psychologists tell us that all of us have like a lull in the mid-afternoon, like that 2 to 4 window. And we're having, like our post-lunch sugar crash and we've run out of momentum. That's another good time to just check in and say, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. Um, sometimes I've tried to pray that prayer before I go to bed to be able to say like, Hey God, you don't promise to speak to our dreams. But there's a template in the scriptures of you speaking through our dreams. If there's something that you want to speak to me subconsciously, speak, Lord, I'm listening. But a world that is so full of chatter. Sometimes it's hard for us to say, like, Lord, I am actually listening because there's so many other kind of data points that are hitting us.

Yeah, it's so good. We're talking with Steve Norman of Winning at Home today, and just last week, I think it was last week. Things were kind of swirling right now in our world, but I think it was just last week my counselor had recommended just spend five minutes. I just want you to sit in God's presence and just just experience him. Just be there with him. And it's in that quiet place that we hear his heart towards us. Yeah. And Saturday morning I got to the place. I was like, okay, I'm just going to sit for five minutes with the Lord and just be in his presence. And I laid down on the carpet and by the end of the first minute, I was crying just to be in the presence of God and to let his love wash over me and to I mean, I think it's in that quiet place that we learn to discern his voice in God's Word. For sure, for sure, for sure, for sure. We learn his his tone, his character, his the kinds of things he says. But it's in that quiet space that we learn to hear him so that in the midst of life and the hustle and the bustle and the crazy, in the middle of a conversation, you can hear God speak to you in that moment and give you clarity 100%.

Yeah, it's so good. We're talking with Steve Norman of Winning at Home today, and just last week, I think it was last week. Things were kind of swirling right now in our world, but I think it was just last week my counselor had recommended just spend five minutes. I just want you to sit in God's presence and just just experience him. Just be there with him. And it's in that quiet place that we hear his heart towards us. Yeah. And Saturday morning I got to the place. I was like, okay, I'm just going to sit for five minutes with the Lord and just be in his presence. And I laid down on the carpet and by the end of the first minute, I was crying just to be in the presence of God and to let his love wash over me and to I mean, I think it's in that quiet place that we learn to discern his voice in God's Word. For sure, for sure, for sure, for sure. We learn his his tone, his character, his the kinds of things he says. But it's in that quiet space that we learn to hear him so that in the midst of life and the hustle and the bustle and the crazy, in the middle of a conversation, you can hear God speak to you in that moment and give you clarity 100%.

And I, I have also heard that it's not just enough to hear it. Sometimes God wants to speak to us, but many times God wants to speak through us to another person like you just referenced Perry. And sometimes there's a lot of terror in being able to say, like, I don't know where this person is in their spiritual journey. If I offer to pray for them, or if I offer to give them a word of encouragement, what happens if they shut me down? And that happened to Samuel. Like a lot of times I read the story and I like stop where he finally realizes it's the Lord, but then the Lord's like, Hey Samuel, I've been trying to speak to Eli and his family. They're not listening. So I'm going to speak again to them through you. This is going to be a hard word. This is going to be something that Eli is not going to want to hear. And we see that in the text. Like the next morning when Eli walks into the room. He's like, so what'd you hear? You can almost sense that. Samuel flinches because he's like, I don't want to give you bad news. And I'm not saying that every single time the Lord gives us for me, more often than not, it's a word of encouragement rather than a word of rebuke. But even if it is a word of rebuke that can that has to be framed in gentleness to be able to say, God wants more for you than what you're settling for. How can I help you take a step forward?

And I, I have also heard that it's not just enough to hear it. Sometimes God wants to speak to us, but many times God wants to speak through us to another person like you just referenced Perry. And sometimes there's a lot of terror in being able to say, like, I don't know where this person is in their spiritual journey. If I offer to pray for them, or if I offer to give them a word of encouragement, what happens if they shut me down? And that happened to Samuel. Like a lot of times I read the story and I like stop where he finally realizes it's the Lord, but then the Lord's like, Hey Samuel, I've been trying to speak to Eli and his family. They're not listening. So I'm going to speak again to them through you. This is going to be a hard word. This is going to be something that Eli is not going to want to hear. And we see that in the text. Like the next morning when Eli walks into the room. He's like, so what'd you hear? You can almost sense that. Samuel flinches because he's like, I don't want to give you bad news. And I'm not saying that every single time the Lord gives us for me, more often than not, it's a word of encouragement rather than a word of rebuke. But even if it is a word of rebuke that can that has to be framed in gentleness to be able to say, God wants more for you than what you're settling for. How can I help you take a step forward?

And it's God. It's God who loves you saying this. And so don't you. Wouldn't you want to know?

And it's God. It's God who loves you saying this. And so don't you. Wouldn't you want to know?

Right? Penn and Teller are not people of faith. They are like atheist magicians. But I remember one of them saying, I think it was Penn who once said, like, I don't believe in God. He's like, but if you do believe in God and you believe that God has given you a word to help me or even to save me spiritually, he's like, you have a moral and ethical obligation to tell me the truth. And I thought it was fascinating for somebody who doesn't even believe to be able to say, if you believe, you have to speak on God's behalf.

Right? Penn and Teller are not people of faith. They are like atheist magicians. But I remember one of them saying, I think it was Penn who once said, like, I don't believe in God. He's like, but if you do believe in God and you believe that God has given you a word to help me or even to save me spiritually, he's like, you have a moral and ethical obligation to tell me the truth. And I thought it was fascinating for somebody who doesn't even believe to be able to say, if you believe, you have to speak on God's behalf.

Yeah. And it takes it takes courage. It takes a risk. And learning to hear from God is a art.

Yeah. And it takes it takes courage. It takes a risk. And learning to hear from God is a art.

Yes.

Yes.

It's not a science. Right. And we got to be willing to take the risk.

It's not a science. Right. And we got to be willing to take the risk.

I also think telling other people what you heard from God takes some learning into as well. You know what I mean? You don't want to step in with. Thus saith the Lord. You know and tell people, this is what God told me. So. Yeah, I've heard this one before. God told me, I'm going to marry you. It's like, well, that's terrifying.

I also think telling other people what you heard from God takes some learning into as well. You know what I mean? You don't want to step in with. Thus saith the Lord. You know and tell people, this is what God told me. So. Yeah, I've heard this one before. God told me, I'm going to marry you. It's like, well, that's terrifying.

I didn't say that to this lady at Zeeland Hospital. I said, I said, I can see that you're troubled. Yeah. Can I help you in some way?

I didn't say that to this lady at Zeeland Hospital. I said, I said, I can see that you're troubled. Yeah. Can I help you in some way?

Yeah, yeah. And how did she respond?

Yeah, yeah. And how did she respond?

She just started telling me her story. And then I just said, can I pray for you? And I was ready to jump into prayer. She was open, but she said, here, let me check something on my phone. She got done on the phone and I got done praying and she said, are you busy? So I ended up giving her a ride to the dentist and.

She just started telling me her story. And then I just said, can I pray for you? And I was ready to jump into prayer. She was open, but she said, here, let me check something on my phone. She got done on the phone and I got done praying and she said, are you busy? So I ended up giving her a ride to the dentist and.

Oh my.

Oh my.

Goodness, being able to speak into her life. And so yeah.

Goodness, being able to speak into her life. And so yeah.

So you were the hands and the feet and the wheels of Jesus.

So you were the hands and the feet and the wheels of Jesus.

At that moment.

At that moment.

I love that. I love being the wheels of Jesus. They're really cool wheels.

I love that. I love being the wheels of Jesus. They're really cool wheels.

We are going through a big change. You may have heard, maybe haven't heard. Big change here at Moody Radio. Moody radio is restructuring and so moving to all national programs. So moments like these I think sometimes can make us ask the question like, how is God going to respond to this news? As if he doesn't know, as if he doesn't have a plan, right? Bit of a silly question, but we can rest in knowing that God has a plan and God is working out his plan. And some of the help in that comes from looking back.

We are going through a big change. You may have heard, maybe haven't heard. Big change here at Moody Radio. Moody radio is restructuring and so moving to all national programs. So moments like these I think sometimes can make us ask the question like, how is God going to respond to this news? As if he doesn't know, as if he doesn't have a plan, right? Bit of a silly question, but we can rest in knowing that God has a plan and God is working out his plan. And some of the help in that comes from looking back.

Yeah, and one of the passages that I love is in First Samuel chapter seven. He's older in this part of the story where the Israelites are struggling with the kind of like ongoing combat with their nemeses, their neighbors, the Philistines, and they get some progress in that particular battle. And then when it's done, it says this in first Samuel 712, Then Samuel took a stone and he set it up between Mizpah and Shen. And he named it Ebenezer, saying, thus far the Lord has helped us. And then the very next verse says, so the Philistines were subdued and they stopped invading Israel's territory. Which is funny, because I think I would have waited for the Philistines to stop invading my territory before I set up a stone. But maybe he set up a stone. While things still weren't great to be able to say, I don't know how the next chapter is going to go, but this chapter has been resolved by God. And so I'm going to put a semicolon here and be able to say like, this isn't the end of the whole story, but at this point in the story, we can say with great confidence like that, the Lord has been our help.

Yeah, and one of the passages that I love is in First Samuel chapter seven. He's older in this part of the story where the Israelites are struggling with the kind of like ongoing combat with their nemeses, their neighbors, the Philistines, and they get some progress in that particular battle. And then when it's done, it says this in first Samuel 712, Then Samuel took a stone and he set it up between Mizpah and Shen. And he named it Ebenezer, saying, thus far the Lord has helped us. And then the very next verse says, so the Philistines were subdued and they stopped invading Israel's territory. Which is funny, because I think I would have waited for the Philistines to stop invading my territory before I set up a stone. But maybe he set up a stone. While things still weren't great to be able to say, I don't know how the next chapter is going to go, but this chapter has been resolved by God. And so I'm going to put a semicolon here and be able to say like, this isn't the end of the whole story, but at this point in the story, we can say with great confidence like that, the Lord has been our help.

You know, and it's going through this change with Perry and Shawna? Uh, it's good for me to look back, because in 2010, we left Phoenix, Arizona, and we decided to move back to West Michigan. We decided to move back to Michigan, and we lost everything in a fire. And so we came back with nothing. And I was doing the work that I still do with frontiers, and I needed a studio to be able to record a little podcast radio feature that I do. And Jack Haberman knew the guy that was promoting my feature. Jack was our former manager and Jack said, yeah, Perry can come in and record a spot here. So I came in here. And then that led to Jack and I sitting down in his office one day and and oh, there goes the lawnmower.

You know, and it's going through this change with Perry and Shawna? Uh, it's good for me to look back, because in 2010, we left Phoenix, Arizona, and we decided to move back to West Michigan. We decided to move back to Michigan, and we lost everything in a fire. And so we came back with nothing. And I was doing the work that I still do with frontiers, and I needed a studio to be able to record a little podcast radio feature that I do. And Jack Haberman knew the guy that was promoting my feature. Jack was our former manager and Jack said, yeah, Perry can come in and record a spot here. So I came in here. And then that led to Jack and I sitting down in his office one day and and oh, there goes the lawnmower.

That's something, isn't it?

That's something, isn't it?

All right, bring that. Bring that thing right in here. I don't know if you can hear that, but at any rate, Jack said. hey, you want to do the morning show? And so not only did I have a place to record my radio feature, but I was given a morning show. And God just provided out of nothing. So here I am. I'm moving on from Moody now, and I realize God's got something good for me because I can look back and see what he did in the past.

All right, bring that. Bring that thing right in here. I don't know if you can hear that, but at any rate, Jack said. hey, you want to do the morning show? And so not only did I have a place to record my radio feature, but I was given a morning show. And God just provided out of nothing. So here I am. I'm moving on from Moody now, and I realize God's got something good for me because I can look back and see what he did in the past.

Yeah, one of my favorite authors, Perry, says people don't fear change. They fear loss. So if I were to tell you, hey, Perry, you're going to get $5 million and never have to work another day in your life. And I told you that today that would be a change. But you might feel optimistic about that because it doesn't it doesn't involve like, a setback. And so I think when we say every change, um, has gifts and every change has some losses, and I think that I love the posture that you and Shawn are taking in all of this to be able to say, like, it's okay to grieve. It's right to grieve. It's important to grieve. It would be dishonest not to grieve. And we can hold two things in our hands at the same time. One is morning and then the other one is hopeful anticipation. And that's going to be my prayer for the both of you as you go forward.

Yeah, one of my favorite authors, Perry, says people don't fear change. They fear loss. So if I were to tell you, hey, Perry, you're going to get $5 million and never have to work another day in your life. And I told you that today that would be a change. But you might feel optimistic about that because it doesn't it doesn't involve like, a setback. And so I think when we say every change, um, has gifts and every change has some losses, and I think that I love the posture that you and Shawn are taking in all of this to be able to say, like, it's okay to grieve. It's right to grieve. It's important to grieve. It would be dishonest not to grieve. And we can hold two things in our hands at the same time. One is morning and then the other one is hopeful anticipation. And that's going to be my prayer for the both of you as you go forward.

Yeah, we're so grateful for that. And and I know that you've gone through some losses in your life, and you can look back in hindsight and see how God has provided for you.

Yeah, we're so grateful for that. And and I know that you've gone through some losses in your life, and you can look back in hindsight and see how God has provided for you.

100%. And there have been some choices that I never would have chosen for myself, but in hindsight, I could see why God had to choose them for me. Because they've been good for my soul. They've been good for my marriage. They've been good for my family, even though they've been really hard.

100%. And there have been some choices that I never would have chosen for myself, but in hindsight, I could see why God had to choose them for me. Because they've been good for my soul. They've been good for my marriage. They've been good for my family, even though they've been really hard.

So if you're struggling with the fact that Perry and Shawna are moving on, or maybe there's just something way, way bigger that you're struggling with, remember what God has done in the past because that God is the same faithful God that has a hope and a future for you. If we're going to trust God in the unknown, We're gonna have to make peace with disappointment. Yep. Steve, I know you've faced disappointment. God led you to leave a thriving ministry at Central Wesleyan, Holland and move into the world of business. This was an awesome place for you. An awesome opportunity for you to be light in the marketplace. I know at one point it was going swimmingly and then you were blindsided. So tell us that story of disappointment and how you made peace with that.

So if you're struggling with the fact that Perry and Shawna are moving on, or maybe there's just something way, way bigger that you're struggling with, remember what God has done in the past because that God is the same faithful God that has a hope and a future for you. If we're going to trust God in the unknown, We're gonna have to make peace with disappointment. Yep. Steve, I know you've faced disappointment. God led you to leave a thriving ministry at Central Wesleyan, Holland and move into the world of business. This was an awesome place for you. An awesome opportunity for you to be light in the marketplace. I know at one point it was going swimmingly and then you were blindsided. So tell us that story of disappointment and how you made peace with that.

Yeah, I Perry, I had taken a pivoted to the marketplace, and Kelly and I, my wife Kelly and I had said like, this won't be a forever thing, but it'll be probably 2 or 3 years. And we got seven months into it. And my boss, I was in the HR department said, hey, I need to have a conversation with you. And I was like, can you tell me what it's regarding? He's like, just meet me in the conference room. And he's like, your position is being eliminated, effective immediately. We'll have somebody walk you out. And like in the movies, I was I was always saying like, oh, when? When somebody gets walked out like they've done a bad thing, right? So for.

Yeah, I Perry, I had taken a pivoted to the marketplace, and Kelly and I, my wife Kelly and I had said like, this won't be a forever thing, but it'll be probably 2 or 3 years. And we got seven months into it. And my boss, I was in the HR department said, hey, I need to have a conversation with you. And I was like, can you tell me what it's regarding? He's like, just meet me in the conference room. And he's like, your position is being eliminated, effective immediately. We'll have somebody walk you out. And like in the movies, I was I was always saying like, oh, when? When somebody gets walked out like they've done a bad thing, right? So for.

Me.

Me.

Like, you can leave now and then you can. Sorry. It was you can leave now and then you can come back later and get your stuff. And I was like, wow, I don't I don't feel like I have been unethical or illegal or I don't I'm like, I'm not screaming or throwing things. I, I it was super awkward for me to walk back to my office because my other I only had one other colleague in the department and she had a heads up. She knew what was happening to me. And so that like compounded it a little bit more because I was like, I asked you point blank what was happening and you knew I was getting terminated and you lied.

Like, you can leave now and then you can. Sorry. It was you can leave now and then you can come back later and get your stuff. And I was like, wow, I don't I don't feel like I have been unethical or illegal or I don't I'm like, I'm not screaming or throwing things. I, I it was super awkward for me to walk back to my office because my other I only had one other colleague in the department and she had a heads up. She knew what was happening to me. And so that like compounded it a little bit more because I was like, I asked you point blank what was happening and you knew I was getting terminated and you lied.

To my face, you know? Um, and in hindsight, I was like, I felt like the Lord was like, Steve, what did you want her to do? Like it wasn't. It's not her fault that this is happening. Yeah.

To my face, you know? Um, and in hindsight, I was like, I felt like the Lord was like, Steve, what did you want her to do? Like it wasn't. It's not her fault that this is happening. Yeah.

Um, but I, I was so sleepless that night. It was like 2:00 in the morning. It was a it was a manufacturing plant, so it ran 24 hours a day. My key I went to I came, went to come back in and get my stuff, like my personal stuff and my key access had been revoked. So I'd been locked out of the building. Thing. And so I could, like other people, didn't know what had happened. So some of the operators, they saw me like waving and they let me in it. And I think at 3:00 in the morning, I cleaned out my office.

Um, but I, I was so sleepless that night. It was like 2:00 in the morning. It was a it was a manufacturing plant, so it ran 24 hours a day. My key I went to I came, went to come back in and get my stuff, like my personal stuff and my key access had been revoked. So I'd been locked out of the building. Thing. And so I could, like other people, didn't know what had happened. So some of the operators, they saw me like waving and they let me in it. And I think at 3:00 in the morning, I cleaned out my office.

Wow.

Wow.

And it was just it was brutal. And I remember there was a part of me who was saying, like, Lord, it didn't have to be this way. And I'm disappointed at how all of this went down. I'm not saying that the people who made those decisions were bad people. I think they were operating in the best business sense that they knew how, but it just felt really messy and, um, like devaluing. Like I feel like it wasn't just I lost my job. It's I lost my dignity. And to pack it all, like, to top it all off, this is the middle of Covid, right? So there was already like multiple layers of uncertainty. And when I go back to the story of Samuel, he leads Israel so faithfully and leads them so well. And then they're like, you know what? We don't want to profit anymore. We want a king. Our neighbors have a king, and kings look cool. Let's have a king. And so, Sam, when they said, um, give us a king to lead us, this displeased Samuel because Samuel's like, this is an indictment of how little you trust God and how little you respect me. So he prayed to the Lord, and the Lord said to him, listen to all that the people are saying to you, it is not you that they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king, as they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods. So they are doing to you. And God said, you know what? Let's give them what they want. I can redeem all circumstances. So he does give them a king. He gives them Saul. And that doesn't work out great for Saul or for the people. And then he gives them David. And David is a pretty good king. But David has some pretty major missteps, too. Uh, not only does he have a personal friend killed, but he also, um, is so arrogant that he has his people counted against the advice of his general. And this is a story that I sometimes forget. The resulting plague, the discipline from God, kills 70,000 people. It's the equivalent of, like, an atomic bomb. And so people are killed by the tens of thousands because of David's poor leadership. All that to say, God says they can have a king. I'm going to. I'm going to move in spite of that. This isn't on you. I don't need you to take this personally. And sometimes that's been a gift for me. And if Samuel wasn't above disappointment and Jesus wasn't above disappointment, we're not going to be above it either.

And it was just it was brutal. And I remember there was a part of me who was saying, like, Lord, it didn't have to be this way. And I'm disappointed at how all of this went down. I'm not saying that the people who made those decisions were bad people. I think they were operating in the best business sense that they knew how, but it just felt really messy and, um, like devaluing. Like I feel like it wasn't just I lost my job. It's I lost my dignity. And to pack it all, like, to top it all off, this is the middle of Covid, right? So there was already like multiple layers of uncertainty. And when I go back to the story of Samuel, he leads Israel so faithfully and leads them so well. And then they're like, you know what? We don't want to profit anymore. We want a king. Our neighbors have a king, and kings look cool. Let's have a king. And so, Sam, when they said, um, give us a king to lead us, this displeased Samuel because Samuel's like, this is an indictment of how little you trust God and how little you respect me. So he prayed to the Lord, and the Lord said to him, listen to all that the people are saying to you, it is not you that they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king, as they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods. So they are doing to you. And God said, you know what? Let's give them what they want. I can redeem all circumstances. So he does give them a king. He gives them Saul. And that doesn't work out great for Saul or for the people. And then he gives them David. And David is a pretty good king. But David has some pretty major missteps, too. Uh, not only does he have a personal friend killed, but he also, um, is so arrogant that he has his people counted against the advice of his general. And this is a story that I sometimes forget. The resulting plague, the discipline from God, kills 70,000 people. It's the equivalent of, like, an atomic bomb. And so people are killed by the tens of thousands because of David's poor leadership. All that to say, God says they can have a king. I'm going to. I'm going to move in spite of that. This isn't on you. I don't need you to take this personally. And sometimes that's been a gift for me. And if Samuel wasn't above disappointment and Jesus wasn't above disappointment, we're not going to be above it either.

No, disappointment is definitely, absolutely a part of being human. So if disappointment is going to happen and it is going to happen, how do we how do we walk that out trusting God and and walk it out?

No, disappointment is definitely, absolutely a part of being human. So if disappointment is going to happen and it is going to happen, how do we how do we walk that out trusting God and and walk it out?

Well, yeah.

Well, yeah.

I think it's really fair to pray the same prayer that Jesus prayed, which was, Lord, if you could take this cup from me, would you do that? And the Lord said, no. And then Jesus says, if the only way to get to the other side of this cup is for me to drink it, will you give me grace to drink it? And I think there are times where we say, Lord, I would not have chosen this cup, but you're not taking it away. So will you give me the grace to to drink the cup. Share in the fellowship of your sufferings, so that somehow I might also participate in the power of the resurrection. It's okay for us to name what hurts. I love the promise in scriptures that says that those who go out mourning, they'll return rejoicing. And for us to say, like God, I'm in a mourning season, will you? Will you keep reminding me that on the other side of this is something beautiful and something right, and something good? And will you walk with me through the dark? And God is always super gracious to do that.

I think it's really fair to pray the same prayer that Jesus prayed, which was, Lord, if you could take this cup from me, would you do that? And the Lord said, no. And then Jesus says, if the only way to get to the other side of this cup is for me to drink it, will you give me grace to drink it? And I think there are times where we say, Lord, I would not have chosen this cup, but you're not taking it away. So will you give me the grace to to drink the cup. Share in the fellowship of your sufferings, so that somehow I might also participate in the power of the resurrection. It's okay for us to name what hurts. I love the promise in scriptures that says that those who go out mourning, they'll return rejoicing. And for us to say, like God, I'm in a mourning season, will you? Will you keep reminding me that on the other side of this is something beautiful and something right, and something good? And will you walk with me through the dark? And God is always super gracious to do that.

And that's Jesus mint right there. So I'm just going to leave it there.

And that's Jesus mint right there. So I'm just going to leave it there.

Well, when life.

Well, when life.

Bumps into you in the unexpected happens, maybe it's a disappointment. Or maybe it's you're suddenly pressed into the unknown. What comes out of you in that moment? In those moments, how do we act with integrity? Steve, I know you were in a situation where. Mhm. I'll let you tell your story.

Bumps into you in the unexpected happens, maybe it's a disappointment. Or maybe it's you're suddenly pressed into the unknown. What comes out of you in that moment? In those moments, how do we act with integrity? Steve, I know you were in a situation where. Mhm. I'll let you tell your story.

Of what happened and how you how you operated with integrity.

Of what happened and how you how you operated with integrity.

So I'm like.

So I'm like.

Born and raised Chicago native. I went to school in Indiana, but my first ministry job was in suburban Detroit. I worked for a church there for five years as a youth pastor and young adult minister. Excuse me. And then I was a church planter, uh, under the auspices of that church for eight years. And then they invited me to come back. So, long story short, Kelly and I, like we were in the orbit of that church for 22 years. So we bought our dream home. Our all four of our kids were born there. Kelly had a great job at a local children's hospital. I felt like I was thriving in ministry, and so everything felt like it was going up and to the right. And then we were just thrown a major curveball by leadership. They said, hey, you're not going to be a pastor here anymore. And it wasn't for anything that was moral or it wasn't for anything that we we never really understood why. Like they couldn't give us a straight up answer. It was super hard because they said, okay, that that conversation was on a Monday like this Sunday, we're going to trot you out on stage and make this announcement together and you're going to be really good about it. And so like what was almost worse than getting like, publicly. Oh, and then they said, we're going to find you another role. But they never did. And so this is I had to make this announcement with senior leadership, with a smile to the 4000 people that attended our congregation. And there was a part of me who was just screaming from the inside. I'm like, this isn't fair. This isn't right. This isn't even honest. We're like, lying to these people. And the congregation wasn't stupid. Like they could read between the lines. They started sending in some emails saying, like, this doesn't make this doesn't pass the sniff test. But I felt like in that chapter, my temptation was to get even, to get vindictive, to get vengeful and God.

Born and raised Chicago native. I went to school in Indiana, but my first ministry job was in suburban Detroit. I worked for a church there for five years as a youth pastor and young adult minister. Excuse me. And then I was a church planter, uh, under the auspices of that church for eight years. And then they invited me to come back. So, long story short, Kelly and I, like we were in the orbit of that church for 22 years. So we bought our dream home. Our all four of our kids were born there. Kelly had a great job at a local children's hospital. I felt like I was thriving in ministry, and so everything felt like it was going up and to the right. And then we were just thrown a major curveball by leadership. They said, hey, you're not going to be a pastor here anymore. And it wasn't for anything that was moral or it wasn't for anything that we we never really understood why. Like they couldn't give us a straight up answer. It was super hard because they said, okay, that that conversation was on a Monday like this Sunday, we're going to trot you out on stage and make this announcement together and you're going to be really good about it. And so like what was almost worse than getting like, publicly. Oh, and then they said, we're going to find you another role. But they never did. And so this is I had to make this announcement with senior leadership, with a smile to the 4000 people that attended our congregation. And there was a part of me who was just screaming from the inside. I'm like, this isn't fair. This isn't right. This isn't even honest. We're like, lying to these people. And the congregation wasn't stupid. Like they could read between the lines. They started sending in some emails saying, like, this doesn't make this doesn't pass the sniff test. But I felt like in that chapter, my temptation was to get even, to get vindictive, to get vengeful and God.

Or.

Or.

Even just say the truth.

Even just say the truth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, and in a tone that probably wasn't entirely productive. But yeah, to get the I was like, we need to tell our story because people were saying, like, did Steve have a moral failure? Like it was that ambiguous? Sure. And Kelly was like, this isn't this isn't fair. Like, to us as a family, to have, like, this rumor mill kicked in and he's like, well, we haven't done anything wrong. And I felt like God was saying, Steve, I know you're you want, um, you want to get you want to defend yourself. He's like, but I need you to trust me, to defend you. And I remember telling our executive director, I was like, if I have done wrong at any point in this process, God will convict me. And I was like, and if I haven't, God will vindicate me. And both things happened. I think that in the wake of all that, the Lord was like, hey, Steve, part of the reason that this went left wasn't necessarily because you were in flagrant sin, but because you were immature and because you were selfish and you were a little bit self-righteous, and you were going to acknowledge that. And then part of the reason that things went left is because people are broken and they're acting out of fear, and they're acting out of insecurity, and they're treating this more like a business than they are the family of God. And that's what draws me to the story of Samuel in first Samuel 12. Any time we're in a transition and are leaving, one chapter is a chance for us to be able to say like, Lord, if there are any loose ends here, I want to make it right.

Um, and in a tone that probably wasn't entirely productive. But yeah, to get the I was like, we need to tell our story because people were saying, like, did Steve have a moral failure? Like it was that ambiguous? Sure. And Kelly was like, this isn't this isn't fair. Like, to us as a family, to have, like, this rumor mill kicked in and he's like, well, we haven't done anything wrong. And I felt like God was saying, Steve, I know you're you want, um, you want to get you want to defend yourself. He's like, but I need you to trust me, to defend you. And I remember telling our executive director, I was like, if I have done wrong at any point in this process, God will convict me. And I was like, and if I haven't, God will vindicate me. And both things happened. I think that in the wake of all that, the Lord was like, hey, Steve, part of the reason that this went left wasn't necessarily because you were in flagrant sin, but because you were immature and because you were selfish and you were a little bit self-righteous, and you were going to acknowledge that. And then part of the reason that things went left is because people are broken and they're acting out of fear, and they're acting out of insecurity, and they're treating this more like a business than they are the family of God. And that's what draws me to the story of Samuel in first Samuel 12. Any time we're in a transition and are leaving, one chapter is a chance for us to be able to say like, Lord, if there are any loose ends here, I want to make it right.

That's so.

That's so.

And that's exactly what Samuel did. He goes, here I stand, testify against me in the presence of the Lord and his anointed. Whose ox have I taken? Whose donkey have I taken? Whom have I cheated? Whom have I oppressed? From whose hand have I accepted a bribe to make me shut my eyes? If I have done any of these things, I will make it right. And I think the reason that Samuel can give that speech with a lot of confidence is he's 98% sure he hasn't done any of those things, but he's also like an elderly gentleman, and he's been doing ministry for decades. He's like, if I wronged you and I missed it, please let me know. And I believe that when we leave, it's a great chance for us to be able to say, Lord, I want to leave with my hands clean and my head up. If there are any loose ends, please let me know what they are. And a couple months after we left the church, we'd been here for, um, we'd been here for a couple of months, and I. And I felt like the Lord said, like, Steve, there's still two people that you wronged in Detroit that you need to make amends with. And so I tried to do that, and it wasn't easy, but it was really, really it was good for my soul. And I want to be the kind of person who lives my life with super short accounts and a clean slate. And I felt like in the recovery movement, in the 12 steps, if you've ever done that or know somebody who has this, they talk about making amends. And I want to be the kind of person who's like, Lord, I do not want to wait to the end of a chapter to make amends. And if a chapter is a really good time to make amends. But I want to keep kind of like a daily running list to be able to say, Lord, if I wronged anybody today, let me make it right before I go to bed.

And that's exactly what Samuel did. He goes, here I stand, testify against me in the presence of the Lord and his anointed. Whose ox have I taken? Whose donkey have I taken? Whom have I cheated? Whom have I oppressed? From whose hand have I accepted a bribe to make me shut my eyes? If I have done any of these things, I will make it right. And I think the reason that Samuel can give that speech with a lot of confidence is he's 98% sure he hasn't done any of those things, but he's also like an elderly gentleman, and he's been doing ministry for decades. He's like, if I wronged you and I missed it, please let me know. And I believe that when we leave, it's a great chance for us to be able to say, Lord, I want to leave with my hands clean and my head up. If there are any loose ends, please let me know what they are. And a couple months after we left the church, we'd been here for, um, we'd been here for a couple of months, and I. And I felt like the Lord said, like, Steve, there's still two people that you wronged in Detroit that you need to make amends with. And so I tried to do that, and it wasn't easy, but it was really, really it was good for my soul. And I want to be the kind of person who lives my life with super short accounts and a clean slate. And I felt like in the recovery movement, in the 12 steps, if you've ever done that or know somebody who has this, they talk about making amends. And I want to be the kind of person who's like, Lord, I do not want to wait to the end of a chapter to make amends. And if a chapter is a really good time to make amends. But I want to keep kind of like a daily running list to be able to say, Lord, if I wronged anybody today, let me make it right before I go to bed.

You know, just with this situation where me and Shawn are moving on because our leadership has made a decision to go to a national morning show. You know, we're not we're not moving on because we weren't doing a good job or that there was anything un godly going on at all, right. And in that process, in this process, I've been able to take those feelings that I have that are not good, that are not godly and bring them to God.

You know, just with this situation where me and Shawn are moving on because our leadership has made a decision to go to a national morning show. You know, we're not we're not moving on because we weren't doing a good job or that there was anything un godly going on at all, right. And in that process, in this process, I've been able to take those feelings that I have that are not good, that are not godly and bring them to God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's where they belong. Yeah. And I could be honest. I'm human. I'm going to have feelings like, hey, man, but I bring that to God, and he's worked in my heart so that I can I can move along from this ministry.

That's where they belong. Yeah. And I could be honest. I'm human. I'm going to have feelings like, hey, man, but I bring that to God, and he's worked in my heart so that I can I can move along from this ministry.

Well, yeah. When I was leaving central, I had Grand Rapids has art prize every year, and I don't know if I told you I did an art prize exhibit once where, like, I built my own pulpit and I.

Well, yeah. When I was leaving central, I had Grand Rapids has art prize every year, and I don't know if I told you I did an art prize exhibit once where, like, I built my own pulpit and I.

Had Norman.

Had Norman.

And I had people preach to me. It was an interactive kind of thing called The Preachers because I was like, preachers spend so much time talking and very little time listening. So I literally had a guy here in Zeeland help me build my own pulpit and pew that were like portable and collapsible. So I set up a pulpit and I sat in the pew and I let people speak to me to be able to say, like, what if you had a chance to speak to the church. What would you say? And so when I was packing up my office, I had my little when I was leaving central to go to the marketplace, I was like, Lord, where am I going to preach? And I have this cool snapshot that I took when I was packing up my car, because my pulpit is right next to my trunk. And I call it like the I call that moment like the pulpit in the parking lot. And I felt like God was saying, like, Steve, you don't need it. You don't need a building, or you don't need a platform, or you don't need a radio station to be the vehicle for God to speak through you to people who need your help. So I just want to remind you that your broadcast beacon, um, doesn't have to be physical to be effective.

And I had people preach to me. It was an interactive kind of thing called The Preachers because I was like, preachers spend so much time talking and very little time listening. So I literally had a guy here in Zeeland help me build my own pulpit and pew that were like portable and collapsible. So I set up a pulpit and I sat in the pew and I let people speak to me to be able to say, like, what if you had a chance to speak to the church. What would you say? And so when I was packing up my office, I had my little when I was leaving central to go to the marketplace, I was like, Lord, where am I going to preach? And I have this cool snapshot that I took when I was packing up my car, because my pulpit is right next to my trunk. And I call it like the I call that moment like the pulpit in the parking lot. And I felt like God was saying, like, Steve, you don't need it. You don't need a building, or you don't need a platform, or you don't need a radio station to be the vehicle for God to speak through you to people who need your help. So I just want to remind you that your broadcast beacon, um, doesn't have to be physical to be effective.

Um.

Um.

That's a good word, Shawna. Can't speak. So I'm going to just I'm just going to say thank you, Steve. And and we're going to take that. We're going to live that out. Right. Lashawna.

That's a good word, Shawna. Can't speak. So I'm going to just I'm just going to say thank you, Steve. And and we're going to take that. We're going to live that out. Right. Lashawna.

Yep.

Yep.

Let's trust God when life doesn't make sense because he sees what we can't. When I was in my 20s, my dream was to get a record deal, and I recorded my first album and shared it with my pastor at Evangel Temple in Springfield, Missouri. Pastor Jerry said Perry, one of my friends is Darryl Harris of Starsong Records. I think he needs to hear this. In fact, he's coming to town. I'll set up a meeting. This was it. My dream was coming true. Darryl listened to my music and said, nope, your lyrics are too deep.

Let's trust God when life doesn't make sense because he sees what we can't. When I was in my 20s, my dream was to get a record deal, and I recorded my first album and shared it with my pastor at Evangel Temple in Springfield, Missouri. Pastor Jerry said Perry, one of my friends is Darryl Harris of Starsong Records. I think he needs to hear this. In fact, he's coming to town. I'll set up a meeting. This was it. My dream was coming true. Darryl listened to my music and said, nope, your lyrics are too deep.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

You need to simplify. Read this book on lyric writing and we'll talk later. I was devastated, but now I can look back and thank God for that closed door. I really think I would have crashed and burned in the music industry. I really do, just because of knowing now what I've gone through in my life, and if I would have put a record deal into that mix. I think it would have been a crash and burn. God saw what I couldn't see. So, Steve, God sees what we can't.

You need to simplify. Read this book on lyric writing and we'll talk later. I was devastated, but now I can look back and thank God for that closed door. I really think I would have crashed and burned in the music industry. I really do, just because of knowing now what I've gone through in my life, and if I would have put a record deal into that mix. I think it would have been a crash and burn. God saw what I couldn't see. So, Steve, God sees what we can't.

Absolutely. And when we continue the story of Samuel, we see that God speaks to him and says, hey, Saul is kind of no longer qualified to be king, so I've rejected him. And I need you to go to Jesse's house, and we're going to we're going to show you which one of his sons will be Saul's successor. So Samuel falls all those instructions and sees Jesse's firstborn son, Eliab, in his gut. He's like, well, surely this is the guy. And the Lord said to Samuel, do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. And they did this for another seven rounds before he got to David. So there I don't know if you've ever had this, but there are times in my life where I'm like, Lord, this makes sense. He's like, no, it doesn't. I'm like, well, this makes sense. No it doesn't. And we just keep going around and around and around. And finally we get to the thing that doesn't seem like it makes any sense at all. And God's like, I, I have an angle on this that you do not have. Will you trust me? And it's hard to do. But in the moments where we have done that, we look back and we say, well, of course God did it that way. There wasn't any other way for that to happen.

Absolutely. And when we continue the story of Samuel, we see that God speaks to him and says, hey, Saul is kind of no longer qualified to be king, so I've rejected him. And I need you to go to Jesse's house, and we're going to we're going to show you which one of his sons will be Saul's successor. So Samuel falls all those instructions and sees Jesse's firstborn son, Eliab, in his gut. He's like, well, surely this is the guy. And the Lord said to Samuel, do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. And they did this for another seven rounds before he got to David. So there I don't know if you've ever had this, but there are times in my life where I'm like, Lord, this makes sense. He's like, no, it doesn't. I'm like, well, this makes sense. No it doesn't. And we just keep going around and around and around. And finally we get to the thing that doesn't seem like it makes any sense at all. And God's like, I, I have an angle on this that you do not have. Will you trust me? And it's hard to do. But in the moments where we have done that, we look back and we say, well, of course God did it that way. There wasn't any other way for that to happen.

I want to give credit to where credit is due, but I think let's just call it Tim Keller, because he says a lot of smart things.

I want to give credit to where credit is due, but I think let's just call it Tim Keller, because he says a lot of smart things.

He sure does.

He sure does.

He it was the quote is this, though, in theory, maybe you know something along the lines of if God, if we knew everything that God knows, we would actually pray that he would do the things that he's doing.

He it was the quote is this, though, in theory, maybe you know something along the lines of if God, if we knew everything that God knows, we would actually pray that he would do the things that he's doing.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah. That's great.

Yeah. That's great.

I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? Like, God knows things that we don't know. He sees things that we don't see. And when things happen in our life and it's we're completely blindsided or it's, you know, something that is wrecking us and we can't see how God could be good in it. If we knew what he knew, we would actually ask maybe for the things that are hard.

I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? Like, God knows things that we don't know. He sees things that we don't see. And when things happen in our life and it's we're completely blindsided or it's, you know, something that is wrecking us and we can't see how God could be good in it. If we knew what he knew, we would actually ask maybe for the things that are hard.

Yeah. Timothy Keller also says, when we get mad at God for not doing things our way, it's the ultimate revelation of our interior pride, because we're assuming that we know what is best for us and our family and our season and our work. When God is saying like, that's nice that you think that, but your perspective is so limited. And again, that's not a shame. That's just God's perspective.

Yeah. Timothy Keller also says, when we get mad at God for not doing things our way, it's the ultimate revelation of our interior pride, because we're assuming that we know what is best for us and our family and our season and our work. When God is saying like, that's nice that you think that, but your perspective is so limited. And again, that's not a shame. That's just God's perspective.

And this may seem silly, but I just think about when my kids were little. My my son just loves popcorn. To this day. He loves popcorn. But when he was little, he would wake up in the morning and want popcorn for breakfast. And I'm like, no, we're gonna have some eggs and some bacon, you know? And he to him, that just wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Why I wouldn't just give him popcorn for breakfast. Right. But as his mom, knowing this boy needs nutrition to grow and become everything that you know, he's meant to become today. So the Lord just. He sees and he knows so much more.

And this may seem silly, but I just think about when my kids were little. My my son just loves popcorn. To this day. He loves popcorn. But when he was little, he would wake up in the morning and want popcorn for breakfast. And I'm like, no, we're gonna have some eggs and some bacon, you know? And he to him, that just wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Why I wouldn't just give him popcorn for breakfast. Right. But as his mom, knowing this boy needs nutrition to grow and become everything that you know, he's meant to become today. So the Lord just. He sees and he knows so much more.

So good.

So good.

You know, there are some things, though, that are that are so hard and so horrible and even I can say horrific that we won't see how it made sense until the other side.

You know, there are some things, though, that are that are so hard and so horrible and even I can say horrific that we won't see how it made sense until the other side.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that sometimes we we forget that God's timeline is different than ours. And that's why I'm so grateful for Hebrews 11, because it's this great passage about all these people who did amazing things by faith. And if you remember, there's a one line that says, like by faith, some women saw like their dead raised. And then the very next verse is like, and by faith some people were sawn in two and died. And I'm like, wait a second. I like the faith that gets people raised from the dead, not the faith that sustains me while I'm literally losing my life for the gospel. And it was both of those people had faith. And he goes, some of them didn't get what they wanted, what they desired until after their resurrection. And it's okay for us to say God's timeline is much, much longer than ours. We like to do things in milliseconds and minutes. We live in a soundbite culture. We live in a world where like, if if what I'm microwaving takes longer than 90s, I start stomping my foot. And I like to tell people like, we live in a microwave world. God is a slow roasting God.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that sometimes we we forget that God's timeline is different than ours. And that's why I'm so grateful for Hebrews 11, because it's this great passage about all these people who did amazing things by faith. And if you remember, there's a one line that says, like by faith, some women saw like their dead raised. And then the very next verse is like, and by faith some people were sawn in two and died. And I'm like, wait a second. I like the faith that gets people raised from the dead, not the faith that sustains me while I'm literally losing my life for the gospel. And it was both of those people had faith. And he goes, some of them didn't get what they wanted, what they desired until after their resurrection. And it's okay for us to say God's timeline is much, much longer than ours. We like to do things in milliseconds and minutes. We live in a soundbite culture. We live in a world where like, if if what I'm microwaving takes longer than 90s, I start stomping my foot. And I like to tell people like, we live in a microwave world. God is a slow roasting God.

Oh that's good.

Oh that's good.

Like God is a pit barbecue master where he's like, I've got this brisket. It's going to be done in 30 hours. Uh, it'll be really good, but I need you to wait.

Like God is a pit barbecue master where he's like, I've got this brisket. It's going to be done in 30 hours. Uh, it'll be really good, but I need you to wait.

God moves slow.

God moves slow.

Yeah. He does. I love that passage. It says a thousand years, Lord, are like a day that has just gone by. Or like a watch in the night. Yeah, that just puts things into perspective for me. We can trust God. Well, we need to trust God.

Yeah. He does. I love that passage. It says a thousand years, Lord, are like a day that has just gone by. Or like a watch in the night. Yeah, that just puts things into perspective for me. We can trust God. Well, we need to trust God.

And we can.

And we can.

Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life journey with you. The content from the podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Shauna. Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800 968 8930. And please subscribe.

Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life journey with you. The content from the podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Shauna. Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800 968 8930. And please subscribe.