Pastors' PerspectivePastors Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and we are here live on this Wednesday, the 19th of March. Give us a call 888-564-6173. We're gonna be here until 4 o'clock and we would love to hear from you. There's other ways you can reach us, but the best way is to call us when we're here live like today.
888-564-6173. And answering your questions today, we've got Brian Broderson, the pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. How you doing, Pastor Emeritus, Brian? Well, you know, feeling kind of old. I mean that title, you know, just sort of, uh, ages it dates you.
Yes, yes. Author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway is here too. He's the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, enjoying a cup of coffee or whatever that is that he's drinking. Maybe it's hot tea or what are you drinking, Bobby? Hot water?
Definitely,
yeah,
get some caffeine in the system. I've only had one cup today.
Now Bobby,
does it, does that, um, have any effect on you sleeping? Do you, you know, because it's, it's like 6 o'clock where you are.
Well, it, it, it might, um, you know, uh, it might, uh, but I do tend to, it takes me 45 minutes, usually to an hour every night to fall asleep anyway. So maybe if I test your theory here, that could be part of the problem.
It may be.
And also joining us today from Biola University, we've got our friend Doctor Scott Ray. Scott is the professor of philosophy and Christian ethics at Biola, and if you've got questions today about a myriad of topics, I hope that's the right word, I think it is, abortion.
The death penalty, euthanasia, religion, and American culture, any kind of ethic type things like bioethics, business ethics, um, medical ethics, give us a call 888-564-6173. How are you, Scott? I'm well. Glad to be with you guys again. Yes, yes, it's always good to have you here. Yeah, I like this is, this is a little bit um of a blessing just because Scott.
Although he works at uh Talbot Viola, he lives near to I'm like 1010 10 minute drive, so it's very convenient. So it works out perfect. Yes, for you to swing by on your way home. Is that what it is? Are you on your way home? Uh, not today, but, uh, working from home today. So just coming down the street, basically. All right. Are you guys on spring break, the school, or two weeks ago? Oh, so we're back. Oh wow, that was an early spring break, huh? It is because our, we get out earlier too, so, OK, yeah.
I've noticed a lot of the schools have done spring break earlier this year. So what are they gonna do for Easter week? I mean spring break in winter. Yeah, yeah, that's the other thing. It's not even spring yet. It's almost spring, not quite. Yeah, what is it tomorrow or, uh, tomorrow, yes, yeah, actually we have a missions conference this week. This is sort of another week off for students from classes.
Very nice. So if you want to find out more about Scott, you can, uh, do that at biola.edu. That is the website for Biola University, the most comprehensively Christian university in North America. If you've got a question for us, 888-564-6173 is the number, and we're gonna start off with a question that was sent in online because yes, you can send in your question by DMing us.
On the pastor's perspective Instagram, or by going to kwave.com and look for the pastor's perspective page there, fill out the form, send it in, that gets your question to us. Or you can do what Britt did in, uh, Torrance, California. She went to the pastor's perspective Facebook page and sent us this message through messenger. Why did God use circumcision as a means
To separate his people from non-believers. Wouldn't it make more sense to have something that was outwardly visible instead of something that only the individual and their wife would have knowledge of? Also, what did the women believers of the time have in replacement for circumcision? Like, what's the female equivalent equivalent of circumcision, I guess is what Britt is asking. What do you say, Brian?
You know, here's, here's kind of a funny thing, um, when you talk about circumcision, uh, you know, there, there, there are groups out there that are anti-circumcision.
So I, I think in an article one time I, I mentioned circumcision for some reason or another, and you know, what happens with these anti-circumcision groups is wherever circumcision comes up in social media, they have some ability to find it. So then they kind of come after you and they want to argue with you about circumcision. So that might happen as we're answering this question. I'm just, I'm just giving us a
Uh, forewarning here, um, so you realize you just set the caveat, you didn't really answer the question. That's right. Well, I would, I would to get to the answer in, uh, immediately. So the, uh, well, well, interesting, you know, that only they and their wife could see. Well, actually, uh, circumcision happened at 8 days old. So it was, um, of course, the parents and it was, it was a requirement and it was, uh,
Therefore, it was nationwide. So all baby boys on the 8th day were circumcised. So it wasn't like it was something that people didn't know about. And it was a distinct thing in the culture, um.
And you know, it, it did have a way of identifying the people by even the term circumcision, that became a uh uh an identifying term, uh, if you read the New Testament epistles, for example, Paul refers to the circumcision, and he's talking about it kind of became in some ways a way to refer to the Jewish nation, right?
And so there's different ideas about exactly why God uh required circumcision, and I think probably the one that
At least I think is is the most um
Maybe maybe the the primary reason.
Was it
God was setting apart a people for Himself. That's the whole issue with Israel. They are to be a holy people, which means that a people distinct from the people around them, and they are set apart for God, by God for God and for the purposes of God. And what God is gonna do through this nation as we know ultimately is going to bring the Messiah into the world. Now, of course, the the circumcision.
Um, it takes place in the body at the place where procreation.
Um, originates. So there's something to the whole genealogical generational thing that's happening here. God is setting apart this people as, as his people in circumcision is the sign for that. Scott, I'm sure you just one thing to add, I think to, to the comment about it not being, not being readily visible, uh, the thing that was to be readily visible to the community around them was how the Israelites lived together in community.
That was to be the most visible sign of how they were set apart for God's purposes, and they had all sorts of commands in the Mosaic law that were completely countercultural, uh, according to the, the customs and culture of the day. So it's more when, when, when, when Moses got described this to Moses in Exodus 19, he said you are to be a holy nation, a kingdom of priests, uh, and that they were to be, they were to be set aside.
Uh, mostly I think in the way they interacted and lived together in community, they had something like the, the year of Jubilee, for example, that every, every 50 years all all land reverted back to its original owners and the idea for that was to give every everybody every once in a while got a fresh start economically and financially, and they had all I mean all sorts of other customs, uh, so for example, uh, if, if a man raped a woman.
Uh, he was he was responsible for supporting her for the rest of her life because of the damage that he had caused completely. I mean, for, for a culture in which women were considered property, that, that was just a turn turn like turn the world upside down, uh, uh type of legislation. So they, I mean there are all sorts of things like that in the mosaic Law and so all they had to do to be countercultural and to live that out, uh, clearly was just to obey the law and to do it faithfully, yeah.
Yeah, Bobby, um, I know you probably have thought a lot about this topic, um.
Yeah, I do.
I meditate often on circumcision, uh, for sure. I think though what you guys are saying is great, and I understand how the person can ask that question. I do think it's uh interesting that you have both Abraham and Sarah, their names are changed.
Uh, in relationship to the covenant that God's gonna bring about a promised child through them where Sarah's name becomes laughter and Abraham becomes Abraham, the father of many nations, and both of their bodies would be involved in the covenant being produced to bring about the blessings through the genealogical line that would find its fulfillment in Christ. And so I think that connection is there.
Uh, so it makes sense then that though it's not something that we fortunately go around and expose, and they would expose, it did represent that, hey, we are gonna circumcise our male child because we believe ourselves to be part of the covenant, the Abrahamic uh blessing that that God's gonna bless many nations through him.
And we identify with that. We share in that. And then as far as girls go, uh, you know, again, uh, I would say that even in the birthing process, while it's not 8 days later, there's still a part of that. Like Sarah was still a part of bringing about the promised child and
The, uh, as, as we saw with Isaac, but then there was a ceremony and later that the Jewish community would do for girls with foot washing, uh, kind of taking from Abraham's Hospitality Act in Genesis 17 of welcoming.
Uh, through foot washing, so welcoming, uh, the, the baby girls into the Jewish covenant through foot washing. And so that was a ritual that would be, you know, added with songs and hymns that would be sung in prayers.
Yeah, one thing that just came to my mind as we're talking is, you know, it is, it's in some ways it's, well, it, it's referred to as a sign of the covenant, and it is symbolic. It is symbolic of um.
You know, there's, it's, it's sort of parallels baptism in the New Testament, and Paul makes a bit of a comparison in Colossians, um, where he refers to circumcision and baptism, kind of in the same passage. And, um, so baptism is you're, you're being identified with Christ, you're, you're a new creation, and this is you're you're immersed in Christ, you come up out of the water, um, with a new identity.
The identity of of being in Christ. Well,
Uh, circumcision was somewhat like that in the Old Testament. It was a, it was a symbol of having a life that was consecrated to God. And so part of the flesh, um, and some would say a useless part of the flesh was then removed symbolic of, of the sinful nature. And so it was speaking about sort of the new, the new creation type of thing. And the reason that
We know that that is to some degree the case because in the Old Testament, God speaks about circumcision of the heart as well as physical circumcision. And in the denunciations of Jeremiah the prophet, concerning the surrounding nations and the fact that God's going to judge them, he talks about their uncircumcision, and then he says, and I'm going to judge Judah as well, because they are uncircumcised in heart.
So they had that outward sign, but it didn't correspond inwardly to what God was seeking, which was a a life that was dedicated to the things of the spirit.
Scott or Bobby, anything else to add?
No me. Yep. All right, Britt, thank you for sending in your question on Facebook Messenger. 888-564-6173 is our number. We're here till 4:00 p.m. Pacific time on this Wednesday, and we would love to talk to you, Eric, hung up. So we're gonna go to Lou and Carlsbad. Welcome to Pastor's perspective, Lou.
Thank you. How can we help you today?
Um, I have always believed that the Antichrist was a person.
However, I see these anti-Semitic protests.
Going on and I'm wondering, is it a movement? Is the antichrist a person, uh, or a movement?
What do you think, Bobby?
The Bible talks about, um, you know, there's many anti-Christ, lowercase a, uh, but the Antichrist uppercase A that you're referring to is a person that will be in the end times, and you can see, uh, when you read it in the book of Revelation and we look at Paul's letters, uh, we can start piecing together an understanding not of a thing.
Um, but as a person, and so then even sometimes people have speculated, uh, is, you know, the Antichrist is gonna be AI, uh, all kinds of interesting questions, uh, you know, can begin to emerge, but it does appear to me to be a person.
And if it was AI and turned out to be that way, there's no way that the original audience could have even possibly have known what that even was to have inated at that.
Scott, now my understanding is it's also a person uh who specifically sets himself up to be worshiped as God in one of the holy places. Uh, I think it's, it's patterned after an event that took place around the time of the Maccabean revolt in 160 BC.
Uh, where Anticchus the 4th set himself up in the temple to be worshiped as God, and the Jews, I think, rightly revolted as a result of that, but the pattern that, that I think sets the pattern for what the Antichrist will be moving from the lesser to the greater when the Lord, when we get close to the Lord's return, right?
Um, yeah, I mean, just to affirm what these guys are saying, um, you know, the scripture speaks of him and he, uh, you know, he will do this and he will do that, and then that's in 2nd Thessalonians Scott was referring to there, but then, uh, Bobby mentioned Revelation, you know, when you go to Revelation 13.
And you look at the description there, it, it is, you know, there's clearly a, a person, there's actually two people, which is quite interesting because, you know, years ago in teaching this, it just dawned on me at one point, like, you know, there actually are two antichrist, uh, they're called in the scripture the beast and the false prophet, and they work in tandem together and um.
Boy, with all the crazy stuff that is happening right now with, you know, computer technology and AI and everything, you know, some of the stuff that you read there in Revelation 13, you're like, OK, well, I, I'm starting to see how this, you know, could.
Uh, I'm not saying AI is that, I don't think it is, but you know, you're, you're starting to see because there there's an image that's made, and then there's there, uh, the false prophet has power to give life to the image so that it speaks and it commands and all of this, and you're just like, wow, you know, there's there's wild stuff and like you said it's got back at the time that that was written.
Nobody could have even remotely conceived of anything. Like, I mean, we couldn't conceive of it 100 years ago, let alone 2000 years ago. You mean that the A in AI doesn't stand for antichrist?
Well, maybe that's actually code.
Lou, what do you think?
Well, great answers. Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks, thanks for coming. Thanks, you too. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today on Pastor's Perspective. We've got Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, and Scott Ray from Viola University, 888-564-6173. Joy.
I go to you after I read another question that was sent in online. This one is from Vera, who wants to know, what should we do with the leftover bread and wine from the Holy Supper based on the scriptures. At the church I attend, the pastors bring a loaf of bread and a bottle bottle of wine. So Vera wants to know what what do churches do with
Leftovers, for lack of a better word, Brian.
What do churches do with leftovers? Well, I, uh, you know, in some cases we.
I, I think most of the time we, we throw it out. We have to remember that these are symbolic um items. They're not.
They're not wholly in and of themselves. They're not, you know, there's nothing about them that's like, oh my gosh, you know, of course, under Roman Catholicism, it's a different idea that the, the bread and the wine are literally at a certain moment in time, being um turned into the body and blood of Jesus. Uh, Protestants don't believe that is happening, and so we see the bread.
And the cup as symbolic of the body and the blood of Jesus. And if you trace it back to the original um
Moment when this occurred at what we commonly call the Last Supper, a Passover meal, um, I'm sure they had leftovers at the Passover meal, and, um, you know, they didn't tell us what they did with them, so I don't think.
Um, I mean, I get how, how you could sort of think like, wow, I don't know what should we do with this, but I don't think God intends us to be, uh, superstitiously bound to that. I, I concur. I think we, you know, we view the Lord's supper today as a memorial feast, and there's nothing, there's nothing sacred in and of its in and of themselves of the bread and the wine. Therefore, I don't think, I don't think it really matters what's done with the leftovers, uh, and that's why in Catholic tradition, like you mentioned, Brian.
Because they uh at some point they become the literal body and blood of Christ. So if they all that all has to be consumed and the the idea of throwing that out is anathema to most Catholics. But I think in, in most, most Protestants, I think that's right, old to a view that's, uh, I think considerably less sacramental in that it's just that the bread and the bread and the wine are not sacred in and of themselves.
Uh, and so I think what's what's sacred is actually what takes place inside a person's heart as they celebrate the Lord's supper, as they take the bread and the wine and commemorate what Christ has done for them in his, in his sacrifice. This is especially true I think in in the season of Lent that we're in, and he's especially meaningful at this time, yeah.
Vera, thank you for sending in your question on Kwave.com. I, I'm chuckling a little bit because I, I just heard a story the other day and I can't remember. I, I think it was a woman that was being interviewed by Rebecca McLaughlin and she was talking about her, you know, her conversion as a, as a child and it happened around communion, but what happened was, um, at the end of the service, she was really hungry.
So
She said to her dad, uh, she wanted to eat some of the bread that was left over from the communion service. Now her dad interpreted that that she wanted to partake in communion and give her life to Jesus at the moment.
But actually she was just hungry and she was wondering if she could eat the rest of the bread. So you know, she tells the story of, you know, she goes through the whole thing and and everything and, and later she said, and I, you know, I just said to Jesus, like Jesus, you know, I, I really do want you in my heart, but I wasn't trying to, you know, she was kind of struggling with, uh, did she do something wrong or, you know, but I just thought how funny that, um.
David and his men did eat the consecrated show bread because they were hungry. That's right. Jesus reminded them of that.
Vera, thanks for sending in your question. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today on Pastor's perspective, if you want to talk to Brian, Bobby, or Doctor Scott Ray from Viola University, 888-564-6173. I don't think that was the, um, this one here isn't it. OK, that's why I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure. I'm still looking for it though. No, it was that last week's, I think it was last week's. OK, last week, the week before. Here is Joy calling us from Hemets. How can we help you today, Joy?
Hi there, my question is from the Old Testament with um.
The blessings that the fathers would hand down. Um, for example, if Isaac, um, handed down the blessing to Jacob instead of Esau.
And I understand how uh Jacob stole the birthright and the inheritance, but I don't really understand why was the blessing such a big deal.
Bobby Conway, what do you say?
The blessing is that you can see sometimes taking place. It is a bit confusing and you think about that whole story where, you know, Isaac, and he goes on to live a lot longer, uh, then they
Their kids thought. So sometimes you think you're gonna lose someone, and they had a lot of life left with Isaac. And nevertheless, um, Isaac gets duped, uh, but, uh, God doesn't get duped. And so there's a sense where it's really kind of a prophetic moment where
God is speaking through, uh, Isaac and laying out some future layout of the way that the blessing is going to unfold. And we're told that the younger is going to be the one that's going to
Uh, you know, be the one that's going to rise up and experience the blessing. And God flipped that stuff. It's on one side, the first born was kind of responsible for the family. They would, they would inherit more of the inheritance. Uh, but then at times, God would just reverse order on things.
Right? And so you would see somebody like a Joseph, or as in the case of Jacob and Esau, uh, this kind of stuff happening where, uh, the unexpected curveball happens, but contrary to what many people think, uh, Esau did end up experiencing, uh, a lot of prosperity and blessing, not the abundance that Jacob did, but he still had some blessing.
Uh, but it is confusing when you're reading that. It, it would just seem like, hey, if you said something to somebody, and it turns out that you got tricked and it was the wrong person, then take it back. But there had to have been a sense of, I'm just a vessel in this moment and God's doing the real blessing here. It's the heavenly Father's blessing in this moment, and that's why it seems to be, um, non-retrievable in that way.
In that moment,
Scott,
this refers, I think, more to the blessing on the first born that the the first born not only I think not only got most of the inheritance, they got all of it, uh, but they were, they were responsible with that for taking care they became the patriarch of the extended family and they were responsible for using those resources to take care of the extended family.
Now that that in my view was just that was just an Old Testament thing that did not carry over into the New Testament, but the idea of fathers giving a blessing to their children is really important and I'm so glad you asked about that because how, how we practice some of that today I think is super important to a child's sense of well-being.
And to their emotional maturity because in essence it's fathers saying to their children, especially to their sons, I believe in you. I'm for you. I've got your back, uh, and I, I will do whatever I can to help you flourish and and become the man that God wants you to be, uh, that, that, and that is shown to just be this rich element for kids to if they know that from their dads.
And I think it applies to daughters too from their dads, uh, that that that's just a rich source of security and unconditional love that is so important in kids growing up in healthy ways. I'm glad you mentioned those examples because sometimes we read these portions of scripture and we wonder a blessing on the children, what does that mean? That you kind of like make the sign of the cross over them? I mean, what does it mean to give a blessing to a child? So that yeah, I, I and I.
I kids know when they receive that blessing from their parents. They know when they know that their parents believe, believe in them. They're for them. They're rooting for them. They believe the best about them, uh, all that.
Yeah, and I think, Scott, you would, you would agree. I think it's not necessarily a a specific moment where you kind of sit down and, you know, raise your hands over your child and do that. It's more just you're affirming them all the way through life, you're encouraging them.
And, um, you know, believing in God's best for them. Uh, the only other thing I would say here, I think with the Jacob and Esau, there's two things going on. Scott, you rightly pointed out there was just that general first born blessing. So you have that and Jacob, um, that's what he gets when he, uh, he buys it from Esau for a bowl of soup, right?
But then there's a different blessing that's involved in these two particular people, and it's the blessing of of Abraham. It's the covenant that God made with Abraham, uh, that he would be, uh, you know, the heir of the world, essentially. So that's the second part, that's the one where you get Rebecca and Jacob goes in and, you know, dresses like Esau and, you know, all of that that happens there in Genesis, that has to do with this very specific um blessing of Abraham, I think.
Bobby. Yeah.
So I think, um, like I, I think that the application for fathers and mothers and, you know, just to be able to be a blessing to your kids fits the part where I would see in, in general, I think the inheritance would go that way, but you think of the prodigal son story, for example, he's the younger brother and he was able to retrieve an inheritance, uh, or you think about the whole idea of, um, and obviously that's a parable, but
Um, maybe, maybe things evolved in the Jewish community over time. And then you think even about Jacob and his blessings on kind of the, the, on the tribes, on his future descendants, where it does seem like the some of the words that are being said, it's spoken in a prophetic way. I don't think we take on that role.
In today's application, but I think in the text, it does seem like when you see the statements, he's saying, you're gonna be like this and you're gonna be like this, and you're gonna be like this, and it seems to be forecasting a little bit of future. So that's what would lead me to think that perhaps there's maybe a divine.
Hand behind those words as well where when we say something, maybe we're just wishing our best over the kids and stuff like that using God's word.
Joy, thank you for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective, and we've got to take a break now, but we look forward to speaking to you in the second half of the program, which begins in just a few minutes. So grab an open line. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've got Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, and
Scott Ray here to answer your questions at 888-564-6173. If you're watching us on YouTube, make sure you click like and subscribe and click that little bell icon too to get notified every time we put something up here on our YouTube channel, 888-564-6173. We'll talk to you in a bit.
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. Brian Perez here with Brian Broderson, the pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway, the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, is with us as well. And our guest today is Doctor Scott Ray, the professor of philosophy and Christian ethics at Biola University. 888-564-6173 is our number and we'll, we've got more calls to get to.
But I think Pastor Brian wants to say something. After all these years, I still can't read you right now. I sounded like you look like you wanted to say something. I guess I could say something. Take it away, Brian. Um, so last week we talked about the sort of kickoff of Back to Basics Live Sunday nights, and we kicked it off. We had a great time.
Uh, actually, we had a few people turn up who heard the announcement over the radio. So once again, just to let you know that um my
New teaching role here at Calvary Chapel is Sunday evenings and we are calling it back to basics life, and we are going through the Bible specifically through the New Testament, and we started in the Book of Acts and we did chapter one, and it was fantastic if I do say so myself.
You know, it was one of those times where you walked away going, OK, that was, that was good instead of, as sometimes all preachers will know, you walk away thinking, oh my gosh, what in the world was that? So, so I walked away with a good sense that the Lord, um, and I, and I knew it was good because I was planning to do more than I did and I finally got to a point where I just said, OK, we got to stop now because, uh.
You know, enough was said. Good, good to know that the pastor emeritus still has it, doesn't it? Yes, sure, at least in his own mind, right? Yeah, and, uh, you know, the handful of loyal friends that were there.
Now, since this is Back to Basics Live, uh, anybody who's familiar with the Back to Basics radio program, there's the little Back to Basics theme song. So do you walk up to the stage with the theme song playing underneath because that would be cool, kind of like, uh, the way the wrestlers do it when everybody's got a theme song and yeah, that kind of thing.
Brian. Yes, and, uh, yeah, like Donald Trump IMCA, so it's gonna be this is what Pastor Brian's gonna do. Yeah, yeah, you never know. You gotta come out and see. OK, 888-564-6173 is our number and here is Teddy and Cerritos, who's watching us on YouTube. We'll wave to Teddy, how can we help you?
What's up guys? Not much. How are you?
Oh just at work I'm bored.
Your boss doesn't know you're on the phone right now, right? Well, I'm the boss, so, well, God's the boss, but, uh, he put me in charge, so I'm gonna do whatever I want. There you go.
So what do you want to talk about? Kind of a question and a thought, and I would like your perspectives and corrections because, um, you know, so I, I watched this guy on YouTube. His name is So Beit. He's a Jewish guy and his wife in Israel, and they're always talking to, um, you know, Israeli Jews, like, you know, the, they only read the Old Testament, that type, right? Right.
So he's always trying to, you know, preach to them, hey, read the New Testament and stuff like that.
So they're always like, oh, the Torah is our, our thing, our, our Jewish Bible. And I was thinking, wait a minute, Job was not Jewish. He was from Iraq, from what I understand, that area.
And so, so the book of Job.
In where I'm sitting, where I'm looking from is not Jewish.
It's, so your perspectives on that.
Bobby Conway, what do you think?
Yeah, Job was from the land of us, uh, I would say that,
uh.
It doesn't seem to be a problem, uh, for me, obviously. I, I, I look at all of the Old Testament is inspired by God. I don't know if this is somebody who's narrowing down his beliefs to simply the Torah. You mentioned, uh, you know, the Torah, and so if he means the first five books, uh, you know, Genesis X is Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, and that's all they focus on, uh, then
You have a, a problem with why don't they believe in the broader Old Testament. So I don't know if that's what you're asking there, but the book of Job's not a problem to, uh, Jewish people. They embrace it and recognize that Job was from the land of us.
Brian or Scott? Yeah, I, I mean, I would just say that although the rabbinical Judaism does focus.
Very intensely on what they call Torah, which would, would be those those books that Bobby mentioned and and really specifically about the legislative aspects of it and so forth um but uh you know, all, all Jewish people agree that the um.
The 22 books of their Hebrew scriptures are indeed all the Hebrew scriptures, and we, the 22 books would be 39 books in our Old Testament, same books, just different numbering system. So, so all, all Jews believe that that that is all the word of God. So they're not.
Um, you know, you're talking about Job being from the land of Oz, he's not Jewish. Well, you can go back. Abraham is not Jewish either, really. He's, uh, he's a Chaldean. He's, he's from, um, Mesopotamia, and he comes and he becomes the father of the Israelites and then at a certain point in history, the tribe of Judah is, um, you know, the dominant tribe, and they're the ones that really return after the captivity. So,
This this this identity as Jews or Judeans or whatever the case, but, you know, so we use the term Jew and uh the New Testament uses it to speak of the Jewish leaders sometimes.
But it's more properly to understand the whole nation. You would think of the Israelites and you think of all of the scripture, the Torah is part of what what is they would call the tanak, and the tanak is is the entirety of the prophetic books and the historic books and the poetry books and so forth. Scott, I would just say 11 thing, uh, my question to this person who raised that objection, I say, so what's your point?
Yeah that doesn't undermine the reliability of the Old Testament at all, and there are lots of other parts of the Old Testament that were not specifically addressed to the Jewish people. A book of Nehem, for example, was addressed to a foreign country. The wisdom literature is addressed to more of a universal audience and the effect the.
You if you look throughout the Proverbs and Ecclesiastess, all the themes that you find so clear in the law and the prophets like the promised land, the sacrifices, the festivals, none of that's in the wisdom literature because they're not they're they're appealing to a a specifically non-Jewish, more international audience, uh, and almost all the all the major prophets and some of the minor prophets have what are called the oracles to the nations.
Where there are prophetic words addressed not to Israel but to the surrounding nations and same same message of judgment uh but I'd say you know it it doesn't have to be addressed to Jews to be relevant to be God's word. Teddy, what do you think?
Uh, yeah, yeah, just trying to, it's, I always find it difficult to
Try to explain to the Jewish people to read the New Testament and just try to learn a better way of saying, hey, you can read the New Testament because you're everything and I think that's nah is what I'm hearing a lot more too, rather than the Torah. Hey, you can, Job was not Jewish, so you can.
Maybe jump into the New Testament is my point.
Yeah, well, they, I mean, the Jews have a very, you know, clear sense of the distinction between the Hebrew scriptures and the Christian scriptures that there's, you know, most, most Jews who know, who know anything about their religion and maybe beyond their religion would, would understand that. But, but of course we would say and believe and the apostles said and believe the same thing and in Jesus as well.
That the what we call the New Testament is the fulfillment and the uh you know, extension really of the Jewish scriptures and so but um I I think it just when you're talking about helping people come to a place where they might read the scriptures, the New Testament scriptures, I think, you know, each case is its own.
everybody's different. I don't know that there's a a particular method or a specific way that you would do that with everybody. I think you just have to sort of
See who you're talking to and, and, you know, see which way to go. I, I think I've had the experience of, and, and I think many have had this experience with Jewish people. Isaiah 53 is always a great, great spot to start with a Jewish person because if you, if you read it to a Jewish person with any knowledge of religion or history, um, they're gonna automatically think you're reading them something about Jesus. And then when they find out that you're actually reading them something that was written 700 years before the birth of Jesus.
Then that's all of a sudden a game changer.
Teddy, thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective. And now let's go to Jonathan and Riverside. Hello, Jonathan, you are on with Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway and Scott Ray.
Hi, how are you guys? Doing well, thank you.
Yeah, um, I'm a, I guess I'm a considered a new believer, um, so I started reading the Bible.
And I started off reading Genesis and I'm going through it and
Um, if, where, well, I guess my question would be, where did all the race come from? Where did all the different ethnicities come from if we came from, uh, Adam and Eve? OK, Scott, what would you say?
Well, I appreciate that you're a new believer and trying to grow in your faith. If I were reading the Bible for the first time, I don't think I would start in the Old Testament. I, I would probably start somewhere in one of the Gospels or one of Paul's letters. Uh, I think it's more probably more straightforward. You say you'll have, you have fewer questions, and it'll be easier to, it'll be easier to understand right from the start. But, uh, I can't answer your question, uh, at the, at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.
God confused people's languages and spread spread spread them out uh because the the the original population did not want to spread out they wanted to stay together, uh, and so God confused their languages in order to get them to spread out and they became organized more around common language groups. I think that's the origin biblically speaking of where the cultures came from.
But then as as people live together in community, they adopt various traditions, they adopt cultural, you know, cultural uniquenesses, um, and, you know, some of the some of the races I think had to do with genetic mutations that they experienced through the environment, uh.
But I think it's just it was overall the result of people spreading out, populating the earth and then um watching different sort of cultural trends and uniquenesses develop as they, you know, live together in community, right? Yeah, and I think that that, I mean, that's even observable today, you know, you can, you can see that still today it happens, you know, people.
Uh, relocate to a new place and then, and they bring with them their own traditions, but then they come to a new place where there's already existing traditions, and then they start to sort of blend together and then you've got kind of a a whole new sort of, yeah, they sort of become like the people that they've, yeah, you know, that they've assimilated with, yeah.
Yeah, this is, I mean this is pretty, I think this is pretty typical what you're describing with with people who migrate from one country to another, uh, one culture to another. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's interesting. I was, I was in South America and um I, I think most people when you go to, you know, like say Peru, for example.
And you have that, you know, Peruvian culture there. But then you have a fusion of Asian, um, Asian cultures within like Lima, for example, there's a large Chinese population, a large Korean population, a large Japanese population.
And I, I think when you first encounter that you're, you know, you're looking at Asian people speaking Spanish and you're like, wait, this doesn't this doesn't quite fit, you know, you just have in your mind, you have what they should be speaking Japanese or whatever the case might be. So, um, but to see the blending of these cultures and one of the, one of the wonderful things that results from that is food.
Amen.
Peru has epic food and a lot of it is due to the fusion of the Asian cultures with the, uh, Peruvian culture, so.
Yes, indeed. That's a little side note. Jonathan, what do you think?
Um, yeah, it, it, it clears up a little bit. Um, like I said, I'm just a, a new believer and I, I have a whole mess of questions, um, so, um, yeah, I'm, I'm a con.
Take your, your word and start reading from the beginning and I, and I would, which like, I was, I was reading from Matthew.
And from then on I was reading up and then I still had some questions because I was a little, a little bit confused, but
Uh, for my first question, yes, it, it did clear up a little bit. Thank you so much. Bobby, any thoughts from you?
Well, I was just gonna encourage you to do a deep dive on the the sons of God and the Daughters of men in Genesis 6. I think that would be a fruitful no. I think that Scott's words to you
are. Please make that clear that you're using satire there. Yes, yes.
Poor Jonathan.
Yes. No, but how would we encourage Jonathan and his new walk with the Lord when it comes to reading the Bible, when it comes to what do you do when you get to those parts that are kind of I think Scott's advice is is that's it. I mean, start, I, I tell people that, you know, start in the New Testament you might um.
If you want to get started, you know, maybe the Gospel of Mark, but of course, you can just ease, you know, it makes it simpler to just start in Matthew, and you'll find as you read through Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you'll find that you're, you're reading the story of Jesus. There's a lot of similarities, but there are some differences as well.
And then you come to John's Gospel, which is considerably different, um, you know, the main parts are all the same as Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but then there's, there's interesting aspects to John's Gospel that you don't find in the other ones. So, and then of course you get into, you know, the history of the early church and Acts and then you get into all of the letters and stuff. But I, I encourage people, you know, make your way through the New Testament.
And then you can go back and start in the Old Testament. And maybe you don't want to go all the way back and just start from Genesis and go all the way through, but you can be selective, you know, you can go back and say, I want to read Genesis and see, and then, you know, you probably read Genesis and think, oh, I can't stop here because I gotta see the rest of the story. So you flip over to Exodus and you read, you know, that that part of the story, or you or you take the Psalms as maybe uh a primer or kind of a
A devotional thing that you're going to look at, you know, along with your reading through the New Testament. And don't be afraid to ask your questions. Yeah, that's right. We're here Monday through Friday to talk to you, Jonathan at 888-564-6173. Bobby.
Yeah, and I look at it a little bit like if you were to move to a culture where there's a foreign language, and now you're a new citizen in another country and you can't speak the language, but this is your new home.
Uh, you're gonna be confused for a while. Uh, there's gonna be a lot of terminology. There's gonna be a lot of rituals, there's gonna be a lot of mannerisms, and it's just gonna take time to get acclimated, and it might even seem weird and uncomfortable at times because you're just not used to it.
And so, if you were gonna learn the language, uh, you wouldn't want to start with, you know, taking on the most difficult, uh, you know, definitions to learn in the language, you would want to know the basics, right? Like, how do you say hello and how do you say thank you?
Similarly, uh, I think that's the advice. Like, uh, learn the big picture of the terrain of the Bible. Uh, it, it, don't feel panicked if you are confused. It's very normal. I still find myself confused even 30 years later at times. Um, and I would also say, enjoy, enjoy the process that you're gonna go through in the learning. And the last thing I would say is,
Know that when you start bumping into a lot of these passages, that there's a lot of, um, there's often uh multiple interpretations on some of these things, and take your time. If you read one book, don't become bull dogmatic and then go out and be a zealot about that one book because
You want to read the, the different interpretations on that and then be able to come to a good conclusion. And so, you know, we're accountable right now to love God, love people, celebrate the gospel, great commandment, great commission living.
And then enjoy learning. Don't try to conquer it. Take your time. Know that there's lots of questions out there. And when you do find those questions, uh, don't feel like you're the first one bumping into those. Know that there's good resources that can help guide you through, and there's a lot of godly Christians that are there to help you walk through this journey.
And to further that analogy, Bobby, of moving to a different country. If you move to a different country because you wanted to, because you knew that this would be better for you, so in this case, Jonathan, you became a Christian because you realized this is what I want in my life.
So going back to the country analogy, you wouldn't go to the other country and just say, no, you know what, I'm gonna go back to the other one because there's too much, this culture is too strange for me. I don't understand it. I'm just gonna go back to the other way. I'm gonna go back to Egypt as the uh uh the um Israelites did, and, uh, because they thought they had it better over there.
Do you guys agree?
You're here. Yes, yes, and um.
Yeah, and I think you know we've said this, but just to reiterate it um.
It's, it's great to be excited and and have zeal about learning and growing and getting questions answered. That's all good. Uh, but
Don't, don't be in a hurry, um, you know, just let you, you have a relationship with the Lord and just let that relationship cultivate because in the end, the, the most important part of all of this is that aspect of it, you know, we can get all kinds of knowledge and all kinds of information, which is good, but we, we can't forget that it's really the relationship with Jesus that it's primarily all about, you know, so.
I'm sorry. I'm picturing Brian, yeah, I'm, I'm laughing. I, I, one of the, you, as a young zealot, like you're out, like you're so zealous, you're, you're throwing away surfboards and repenting of surfing and throwing away TVs
and
yes I know about this? Have you heard the story? He's in shock. I am in shock.
Yeah, you know, I was trying to get it all done and, uh, you know, and, uh.
Light speed time.
Uh, so I have a, I have a question. I'm, I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna ask Scott this question. I know, I know the answer from Bobby, but.
You know, Scott, you are, do you find yourself today, um,
Like, are there still areas where you feel like, gosh, I wanna go deeper in that. I wanna know that better. I wanna understand that more. Um, I, I'm gonna, you know, I wanna give myself to really studying this particular thing. Uh, do you, is that still, yeah, it is for you. Yeah, that's a tough question to ask with 4 minutes to go because I have, I have a fairly lengthy list and part I think.
Part of the realization it's hard is that.
You know, I probably won't get to all of them. It's this side of eternity, um, but yeah, I would, you know, there's, there's parts of the Old Testament that I wanna do a better job with. I mean, there's just, there's some really puzzling parts of the Mosaic law that I still haven't quite figured out and would like to.
Go deeper into that, particularly some of the stuff that the law prescribed in its in its treatment of women in order to protect them. um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm getting really tired of people saying why does the God of the Old Testament hate women? because he didn't. And then, and there's much, much more protection for women than people recognize at first glance. That's the other thing that I'm that I'd like to read and study a little bit more about is the.
The system of criminal justice in the scriptures and how if at all that can be helpful to guide the way we think about criminal justice today because they had some really interesting and really interesting things that I just need I just need them to learn more about um so those would be a couple of things but the the list is fairly lengthy and I'm, I'm asking that question because you know at this at this juncture for me.
Um, you know, having now stepped away from 40 years of being in a very specific role of, you know, teaching, preaching every week on a, on a Sunday.
And now, you know, not so much doing that like I did, um, and now I don't know if I have any extra time or spare time, but, you know, I'm thinking like things that I want to still sort of dig deeper into. And the problem is there's too many. I can't even decide which ones I want to do the deep dive into. So, you know, my, my approach has been when the as the time allows, just pick something, yeah.
Yes, exactly, yeah. I, I'm, I, you know, I'm really kind of history is sort of the thing I, I gravitate toward, and um I've, every now and again, I kind of get caught in the inner testamental period in that history. It is so incredibly fascinating. Um, I find myself just being sucked into it, and yet at the same time, thinking like,
Why does this matter? I mean, in so many ways, you know, it does not matter at all, uh, you know, reading about Pompeii and John Hercanus and Cleopatra and Mark Anthony and Julius Caesar, you know, and it's just like Herod the Great, but it is fascinating to think of all of those characters were there in that transitional period from the old to the New Testament. So Bobby, 45 seconds.
Well, I'm in the same boat, right? I, and, and,
but you're younger and your brain works better and so that's why I didn't include you in this. Well,
this is two older
fellows talking.
It's, it's there you know
yeah.
But a lot of the things, right, like I find myself just wanting to know.
More philosophy, more about certain philosophers, um, more history, more theology, and then people just never quit producing books. And so I really wish sometimes I could have a 5-minute conversation with Jesus and say, Jesus, can you just be straight up with me? What's, what's my study plan for the rest of my life so that I don't just let my OCD take over.
Now, you probably asked for a plan B.
All right, great talking to you guys today. We are out of time. We're gonna archive today's episode on Facebook and YouTube and Apple Podcasts and Spotify in case you missed any portion of it or just wanna share it with your friends. If you want to call us tomorrow, if you didn't get on today, we'll be here between 3 and 4. God bless you guys. Thank you so much for listening and for watching for Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, and Scott Ray, I'm Brian Perez. Have a good evening.
