Pastors' PerspectivePastors Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez, and we are here live on this Thursday, the 13th of March 2025. 888-564-6173 is our number.
And we would love to hear from you. There's other ways you can get your question to us, but we prefer the phone because it's so much fun to talk to you guys, to interact with you. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. Joining us online is author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway, the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. He's in
Southern California right now, but, uh, he decided not to join us in the studio, us being Phil Metzger, who drove all the way up here from Calvary San Diego to hang out with Bobby, but Bobby's not here. And look who else is here. Pastor Brian Broderson and Bobby still didn't show up. My goodness, what's going on? What's a guy gotta do to get Bobby to show up? right?
I mean, I, I came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hang out with Bobby. He's not exactly. I mean, what is this? International flights were happening to see you.
Bobby just says not today. Are you, you're sequestered in your hotel room, right? Have you been sick? I heard you were sick this week.
I was, I had the stomach virus. Oh I'm doing better now, but now I'm in uh Palm Springs because I'm getting ready to speak at the Desert Apologetics conference.ference, uh, this past week. Oh, cool. How in Anaheim, where, where was that at?
Uh, it was at Cornerstone Community Church in Anaheim. It was a four square church, and John Stewart, Don Stewart's brother, invited me to speak at that with him. And so they Wallace was there and some other speakers, and we had a good time. Oh, that's great.
Yeah, yeah, awesome. Alright, well, stomach bug is an acceptable reason to not be up here. We were just feeling it personal, but that's, that's, that's, that's a good reason. And this weekend, what, what are you doing this weekend? You're out in Palm Springs? Yeah, so, uh, Dawson and I, um, are speaking at a conference, uh, and we're gonna be, uh, joined with Greg Coco and, um, Craig Hazen and Clay Jones and
Uh, just some other, uh, speakers that are working to apologists and stuff, and Dawson's gonna be doing a talk for the students. And, uh, yeah, so that's what's going on with us here and brought the wife and he brought his wife and so yeah, we're just having a good time together. That's awesome. I have an 8. I bet I bet if I stepped on a scale, I'm down 13 pounds.
Oh wow, I like that, but I don't know that I would want to use the same method, we should have had Bobby come up and just kind of like cleanse us all out there, yeah, so we can talk about my process, you know, Perez can tell you about the finger down your throat just to get the whole thing was we went into detail about that a few days ago. I, I was actually in my car yesterday when you guys were on. I was listening to you and I.
I felt that uh you needed help with the Edomites, so I thought I would come in today and just uh solve the riddle of the Edomites. It was a big, big question yesterday, um.
I saw you brought him back from Europe, Bobby. That's what I'm getting I saw Scott Ray last night. Uh, we went and saw the, um, the further up further in which he told me he was going to that. I don't know you. It's a new CS Lewis deal with Max McLean, and I ran into Scott there and we, we joked about the Edomites. Yes, so it was, it was fun to see him and Bobby, yesterday I spent 3 hours with Sean McDowell.
And we just sat in a circle with some friends and had a conversation and it was absolutely brilliant. It was so fun.
And just appreciate Sean so much, you know, what a great, he's just, he's just a great guy, you know, and God has such a heart for the gospel, such a heart for people, yeah, yeah. So it was really it was a treat, yes. He's such a he Sean is like high loyalty, high integrity, high humility.
And high intellect. I mean, that's right there. Yeah, he said Sean McDowell's high is what I heard over and over and over but he's not that good and the day before that I spent 34 hours with Rick Warren and Rick is you know, on a whole another level of of everything, you know what the guys. The coolest thing, um, we were with a group, my, my cohort guys, you know, when, when I went to Wheaton.
Um, we do an annual reunion, so we got together this week. They came out to Newport Beach.
And anyway, we went to Rick's and you know Rick has this legendary library. Um, have you seen it? I mean only on the videos. OK, yeah, yeah, I mean it's unbelievable. It's like the presidential library. Bobby, when you come out, let's let's get Brian to get us an invite to go check out the library. But Paor's perspective at Rick's house, he has, he has so much insane memorabilia, but the most amazing thing he has, he actually has the staff.
That was held by Charlton Heston in the 10 Commandments movie when he parks the Red Sea. Yeah, he has that actual staff. So basically Moses's staff, staff, Moses slash drop and so does he have in his library? Oh my gosh, how many books? I mean thousands. It's, it's unbelievable, yeah.
Yeah, it's like have you ever been to Trinity, uh, Trinity College in Dublin, the library, it's like that it's a little smaller, just a little.
You've been to Oxford. Yeah. Wow. So anyway, so much fun. I've been back in town, but I just have been preoccupied, so now you gotta suffer with lowly. I know, yeah, well, I'm taking my rightful place back with the humble, yeah.
he's, he's a meek humble guy. This is where I actually to show it here he is with us. I'm with my people. I think he said he's more humble than Moses. So Moses was the humblest man, but now you're more humble perhaps.
Well, some think that Moses said that about himself, so I guess I could, yeah, you could say that about yourself. I'll believe it. I told Cheryl that ages ago. I'm sure that went well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was accusing me of being prideful, and I said, Are you kidding? I am one of the most humble people in the world, and, uh.
I was only 24 years old at the time, so you know a little bit delusion. I should, I should be wearing a bag over my head in your presence of mail. That's right. That's right. So now that you're back in oh, go ahead, Bobby, what?
I was just curious if Brian, give us a little bit of uh thoughts on a sabbatical.
Yeah, well, the sabbatical is sabbatical that isn't. Yeah, I mean, it is the only sabbatical part is is Cheryl and I are taking a break from each other, so uh.
We haven't seen each other. Yeah, we haven't seen each other in quite a while. She's in New Zealand right now. She, yeah, and I was, uh, yeah, she's, yeah, so, uh, you know, I've been everywhere. I was in Europe, you know, I came home for a couple of days. I think I might have done the radio when I came home for a couple of days, but I left on the 7th of February to go to Central America, and I was there in El Salvador for a bit and then went to Lima, Peru, was there, had just a fantastic time.
And then I went to Florida. I actually was in Florida for 2.5 weeks and I had such a tremendous time, and I realized why people retire there and why, you know, people are snowbirds and they come down from the Northeast and they.
Yeah, even from California, like, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's different, you know, yeah, and I think January, February and March are the only months you can actually go and enjoy yourself because the rest of the time you're, you're just cooking up, yeah, you're burning alive. So yeah, so anyway, so I got home and then, um, you know, I jumped right into the cohort thing. So today is like my first normal day that I had in.
Like 8 weeks. So and he's slumming with us today out with you guys. So based on what Brian just said, Bobby and Phil, are you looking forward to a sabbatical, one of these years?
Uh, not like that one.
No, I, you know, I mean come on decades have we all been learning from Brian and Cheryl, and we love it. They're so fun. I, I look forward to the idea of, yeah, when I turn 50, I don't know what it's like, but you hit that and you go, oh man, there's an end date, like there's an end date coming for ministry, you know, like as a full-time pastor, but what you're doing, I love it, it's encouraging.
Yeah, and, and I mean so far so good. You've been busy, um, but I, I, I want to say that, you know, so originally there was this idea we were gonna do 6 months away and that, that just, you know, that, that idea went by the wayside. So we are, so I'm basically back, um, and gonna resume.
Or, or, you know, kind of step into some some new things that that I'll be doing, but I'm back for the radio program and I'll still be traveling. Phil and I are actually gonna go to Eastern Europe together in May in May, right? Yeah, so, and I'll have, I'll have a few weeks out in May and then, you know, my normal summer adventures, but apart from that, you know, I'm here, glad to be here, glad to be back on the radio with you guys, uh, and this Sunday night for those of you that might be interested.
I am teaching uh Sunday nights at 6:30 at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and um back to Basics Live is what we're calling that, and I am starting the Book of Acts in chapter one. So, so my goal is to go through the whole New Testament, kind of chapter by chapter.
And I actually started Luke before uh before my, you know, transitioning out of the lead pastor role. I taught the gospel of Luke, and then we, we paused for Sunday night for quite some time.
And so this Sunday is the big kickoff for Acts chapter 1. So I love, you know, we all love the book of Acts, right? So I, I've literally been reading it straight through for 6 months, not necessarily because I'm gonna teach it just because I've been so enamored with it and just so, you know, engaged.
So I'm, I'm excited about that, yeah, and it'll be a night where we have uh a little bit of worship, um, and a time to prayer, you know, there's 55 references to the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts and so we're gonna be not just talking about the Holy Spirit, but want to really open up and and allow the spirit to move among us. And then I think also Cheryl and I probably, I don't know, maybe, maybe once a month. I'm not sure how we'll do it, but.
We'll, we'll kind of add a little Q&A for an evening too, you know, where we just kind of, it's fun teach through and get up and it's fun, do some Q&A stuff, yeah. So I'm looking forward to it. Very nice. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, we have a question on Facebook, but let me just remind everybody that the back to basics Bible study is happening.
This Sunday night at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, you can find out all about it at back to Basradio.com/live. And here's Ashley's question, she wrote in on Instagram, will we see the Holy Spirit in heaven? What do you think, Bri?
Well, the hard thing is, you know, the word spirit, um, we're talking about someone like if if you think right now like, oh, I saw a spirit, well, that's kind of a contradiction because the spirit is invisible.
Um, but it is interesting in the book of Revelation, you know, there, there are the seven spirits of God before the throne of God, and I think most people believe that that is a reference to the Holy Spirit. And so John sees that. I don't know what that looks like or how that is possible. I guess the spiritual, you know, right now, the spiritual realm is invisible to us, but perhaps in that.
Um, new environment, maybe we will.
We will be able to see, you know, now it's invisible. I think that makes sense. I, I think we can't see the spirit now, but why not? Yeah.
In some form, in some way, yeah, but, but you think of the seven spirits and some people have drawn from like Isaiah 11, you know, where it's describing the spirit of the Lord and the spirit of, uh, wisdom and equity and all of this, you know, and so I don't know Bobby, what do you think? Are we gonna see the Holy Spirit?
Uh, well, I think that we could see manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the form of something, uh, but
To be able to see the Holy Spirit, like as a particular embodied object, let's say.
Um, like
A human annoyed, let's say like Jesus took on human flesh. I, I don't know that I would see the Holy Spirit.
Would be tethered to any particular.
Vehicle wrapped around his spirit throughout eternity.
Because his nature is obviously spirit, and he seems to have remained that way, but then you see like, oh, the spirit descended as a dove or tongues of fire or what it might might have you. So who knows, maybe it would be more like.
The spirit would show up in.
I don't know, amazing light shows or something. It's so hard to imagine what it would be like. So I think we'll see the spirit showing himself, and we'll know it's the spirit at work, but will it always be looked at the same or like when you see Jesus, I think we'll see him as the
Son of God who was crucified and rose again. Uh, so that, that's the one thing, will it be different forms that the spirit takes on, or would he just situate himself in one form? Yeah, and Jesus, of course, is embodied and will be forever. But here's the follow-up question.
Well, we see the father because God is spirit, right? And so in that sense, what would be the embodiment of the father? Yeah and and again, revelation is interesting because, you know, I mean, some people would say no, you can't see God because he's spirit, but John sees somebody sitting on the throne and he has a scroll in his right hand, so he even sees his hand. So there is some image there that um
Will be seen fun things to find out when we get there. I'm sure that's good. Isn't that the title of your next book? Yes, yes, that's my next book. Yeah. Fun things to find out when we get there.
A book of things that can't be answered.
Just be a bunch of blank pages, right? What about? Nothing.
Ashley, thank you for sending in your question on the pastor's perspective Instagram, and now we're gonna read a question that was sent in from David on Kwave.com. By the way, the phone lines are open. 888-564-6173. Brian Broderson back for the first time in weeks, Yay, months, weeks, yes, ages ages 888-564-6173. Bobby Conway and Phil Metzger are here too. David wrote in.
Hi, pastors, please help me. As far as I can remember, for the first time in my life, I find myself not wanting to even get out of bed, and I just want to stay there. It's not just no motivation, it's a lack of desire. I feel like almost everything that I aspire to do just vanishes, as if I went to reach for something and right before I grab it, poof.
I'm not doing so great this past year. I think I am a bad night or two away from ending it all. I don't have much to live for to keep me here. I don't have a wife or a girlfriend, no children, no friends, even despite my best efforts, both in person, at church, and online. Just my mom and dad. No close family members anymore. It's almost just me. I don't have too much to live for to keep me here anymore. Bobby Conway, what do you say to
David. By the way, if anybody's having thoughts like this, there is a suicide helpline that you can call. It's 988. It's like 911. That's for a medical emergency. I mean, if you've actually done it or you're thinking of doing it, like the call that we had a few days ago, 911, but if you just want to talk with somebody, 988 is the number to call. But Bobby, what do you say to David?
Well, let me start off and just say, Lord, I pray for David. My heart just feels his pain right there, and I just pray that you will give him the perspective to see life through your lens, and that he's valuable to you. Give him your comfort, give him your peace. Give him your joy, and may your spirit fall fresh upon him in Jesus' name. Amen.
I would say, as it relates to
You're suffering, you know, I'm, I started a biography on Marcus Aurelius today, and he was a stoic philosopher.
And he is known for his meditations and being a believer that all truth is God's truth, I, I think even people that aren't Christians can say something really wise.
And he lost his dad when he was very young, probably about 3 years of age, uh, but he was this person that was groomed, uh, I mean, he was under Emperor Hadrian from, you know, a young age. He had the finest scholars giving him an education. His mother was a great, brilliant lady, yet he learned how to experience pain at a young age and compassion. He had to learn how do you deal with life and pain.
And one of his observations is basically you've got to take the suffering that you're going through in the moment and break it down into chunks to deal with it. And there was something about looking at what you're up against, uh, uh, and you feel like you can't get out of bed.
Well, how can you take and start shrinking this suffering down into a solution that you can start to tackle? And I'll tell you one way that you will not succeed is if you reread what you wrote in,
You, you gotta change your mindset. It's, I don't have this, I don't have this, I don't have this. I don't have this. And that is exactly what depression tells us. It empties us, it guts us, it brings us to the end of ourselves. And believe me, I, I've been there in the horrors of it myself. And all I could say is, start by waking up, getting out of bed, and just doing simple things like make your bed. And then just
You know, high five yourself in the mirror for getting up and
Thank God for giving you the air to breathe, and do something for somebody else to get out of your own thinking, and count your blessings, and read the stories of those who've suffered and pulled through, and know that God's not finished with you, and realize that you are in a dark space.
But I've been there. I know Pastor Brian has literally been in bed like that for a long time. The suffering was horrific for him. And I know we both could say out of deep depression that
The crazy thing about it is you can actually come out of it and go, I can't believe that I was in that space. Like life can become hopeful again, and that's what I wanna say. Yeah, but that's, that's.
That's a good reminder because it is true, cause I have been in that place, um, years ago, but I sometimes I look back and I think what, who was that person? That's how, you know, radically God has, has brought me through that. Um, but, but I would say too that, you know, all of the I don't have a wife, kids, girlfriend, you know, you did mention that you have your parents, OK, that's good, they love you, they care about you.
If you were to do something like take your life, they would be devastated for the rest of their lives. But I think what I would say, and, and this is how, in one way, this is how I navigated that.
I never lost sight of the fact that God
Had saved me for a purpose and I just would that that would be the lifeline to me almost daily. It's like, OK, I, I'm, I'm in this state right now, but I know God saved me for a purpose, and I don't think this is the purpose. So I could, I could in some way, although it almost seemed almost impossible to think that there was kind of light at the end of the tunnel, I, I just had that hope.
That God saved me for a purpose and I'm gonna, he's gonna bring me through to, to that purpose. And I could say now that he did, he did do that. And I would say um that he will do that for you, but you need to get some help, you know, I mean, it could be you even need to get on some medication, maybe, you know, maybe you are, maybe you're not, I don't know.
Um, you know, sometimes Christians are, are afraid of medication. They thought, oh, you know, that's not trusting God if I take medication. Well, um, medication is a, is a blessing from God many, many times and so you might need to go there, but you need to talk to somebody that can give you some, some wisdom and of course biblically, you would need somebody to encourage you.
Biblically, um, but also maybe medically. Maybe this is something you need to get yourself to a doctor and, and let them help you. But, um, that sense of not wanting to get out of bed.
Boy, that that is such a real thing and it's, it's not even the thing about it though, it's not, it's not rational in some ways, it's not logical. It's not like I could think my way through this. It's, it's like beyond that, right? You know, you're just like, wow, I, I remember a season in my life where like the smallest task.
Would seem overwhelming. I, I remember actually thinking about.
How
Uh, challenging it was going to be that day to feed my dog, to open the can of dog food, but in the bowl. I mean, crazy, you know, but yeah, just like you're just in a state and, and, you know, the funny thing about, you know, real depression is, um, it's not funny, but so often because we all experience forms of depression throughout our life, you know, and most people experience it mildly, um, or maybe, maybe even moderately, but
But with a mild or moderate depression, you, you when somebody says you need to pick yourself up by your bootstraps or whatever they say, you're like, OK, that, that's probably what I need to do. And you know, you can kind of go in that direction. When you get to this level of depression, you can't even imagine that there are any bootstraps. It's not there's no boots. There's nothing. There's nothing, no boots and you can't get to them if they were there, but.
The wonderful reality is there's still God and God loves you, and God has a plan and all of those things like you mentioned that Bobby reiterated that you don't have.
Don't worry about that. You have God who loves you, God who created you, and unless God takes you out, you don't want to take yourself out of this world, uh, because the fact that you're still here means that God wants you to be here. He has a plan for you to be here, and he wants to help you through this season, so.
And the fact that you're reaching out this way says you you still want help, so, you know, kind of hold on to that and I think that's so good, Brian, that's what I was thinking about is like most of us go through like mild depression and we're like, OK, we just gotta like fight another day, you know, and all those like kinda refrigerator magnets work for us, you know, and then, but then you hit that like pit where there's it doesn't matter, and I think it's a good reminder too, I love what you said about, get help, don't be alone.
You got parents? Do your parents know what you're expressing here? Like, have you shared with them? That would be so so key. Let them, let them in. There's a great Hungarian psychologist named Edith, Edith Eger, I'm trying to say it the American way, Edith Edit Egger or something like that, anyways, she's got a book called The Choice, she's a Holocaust survivor. She lives here in in La Lollya actually in San Diego and um her whole thing is kind of like
Nobody's story is gonna be bigger than mine, right? I mean, like, when you talk about horror, I win, and then she'll say, but
You have your own story and nobody gets to tell you your story is not important. Your story does matter. I'm gonna as a Holocaust survivor, let me validate your horror story and now we, if you wanna change your her her famous quote on that is if you wanna change how you feel, you need to change how you think and just kind of as you said there, Bobby and and the good news is the Bible tells us that God wants to renew our thoughts. He wants to renew our mind. And so we, we, we're gonna trust David that God is not just like near you, but he's going to empower you.
To get up and to let somebody in to be there to be a support to you, Bobby.
Yeah, it really is, uh, a mind game right now. Um, and you've got to believe this. Uh, you got to take every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ. And so the narrative that you're telling yourself in depression, combined with some spiritual warfare, uh, circumstances, it's a narrative that is minimizing who you are as a person compared to who God made you to be.
It's, it's shaming yourself, it's living in comparison, it's living and thinking all the things that you, you don't have.
And it's killing your emotions. And if you'll take captive your thoughts, then depression could become the
The, the desert that God leads us into in order to teach us to think more Christianly. And depression will take you to the place that if we don't wake up to how important it is to govern our thoughts Christianly, it can't cause us to jump off a cliff, or it can cause us to train the way we think differently. And I can tell you that when I have been in the dark night of the soul.
Uh, the, uh, deep depression, like setting a date to jump off a cliff kind of a thing. The way out of it for me has always been to change my mindset.
And I spent 2 years where my word for the year was just a positive mindset. That's 2 words. That's, well, 3 words, mindset, uh, positive, uh, but anyway, a positive mindset. Yeah, uh, so here's what this could look like. Like, start start paying attention to your thoughts. Like, separate yourself from what's going on from your soul. Look at the thoughts that are coming at you, and then
Your, your emotions can be addicted to your thinking and crave it. And you, and so you've got to starve the negative thinking out. You've got to fast from negative thinking. So here's a, here's, here's a spiritual exercise.
Out of love for God, offer him up the spiritual sacrifice of crucifying negative thinking for the next 30 days and supplementing it with just praising God for who He is and finding ways to praise him for what he's done in your life, because everybody has suffered the difference between those who pull out and those who don't.
Are those, it comes out of a perspective and mindset. That's the difference in the Holocaust victims that made it and those who don't, if they were to survive. Mindset.
David, thanks for sending in your question, and the book that Phil mentioned about the Holocaust survivor is called The Choice Embrace the Possible by Dr. Edith Eva Eager, E G E R. You can find that wherever you get your books or on Kindle, I'm sure, maybe audible, but, uh, we are going to take a break now. We'll be back with more of your questions at 888-564-6173.
OK, here we go. Second half of Pastor's Perspective begins right now. 888-564-6173 is the number to call to talk to author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway, the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, who's going to Coachella this weekend. Well, the
Coachella Valley, he'll be uh teaching at the, what's it called, the desert conference is that the correct name? Desert apologetics.com, not to be confused with like Deseret apologetics because that would be, isn't that a Mormon thing I think Deseret, I don't know. You know, it's never fun, yeah.
I think it's a city over in Utah or something. I don't know for sure. But, uh, anyway, 888-564-6173, uh, Phil Metzger, the pastor of Calvary San Diego, joins us today, and our special guest, Brian Broderson, our long lost friend, has made an appearance today. He, uh, yeah, it's good to have you here, man, really is.
Go to the phones. Ready? What were you gonna say?
You don't know. I was gonna say thank you. Thank you for those kind words. Yes, it's good to be here with you fellas. 888-564-6173. Mike and Riverside's got a question about a TV series called Secrets of the Bible. That should have been the name of this radio program, Secrets of the Bible. That sounds cool. No, I'm joking. Anyway, Mike, what's your question for us today on Pastor's Perspective?
Hi, Pastors, thanks for taking my call. Um, I haven't even, I haven't watched that show. My girlfriend was watching it and bringing up the question of
You know, the Bible has so many different translations, the King James, New King James, um, so many others. How can we be certain they're accurate being copied so many times?
Bobby, what do you say?
Well, I haven't seen the program, uh, but I would say that that same question would need to be also applied to every other piece of historical documentation before the Gutenberg printing press as well. How could we trust that, right? So, the difference I think that we can feel good about, so, in other words,
When we hear that question that, that, that we often hear from maybe somebody that's just genuinely concerned about trust in the Bible, broaden it for the individual by helping them to realize that, well, uh, we trust lots of history, and we don't seem to let that bother us and we talk about the facts of
You know who Plato was and who Aristotle was, uh, or some or who Homer was or who he seed was, uh, these different ancient characters.
What makes the Bible feel more powerful to us is that we have more manuscripts.
And we have uh more.
Earlier manuscripts, I was having a, a fry out there, more manuscripts and earlier manuscripts from the time of when which it was written. So when you take most of the ancient literature that we have, uh, a lot of the documents that we're looking at are coming from copies that would have happened hundreds of years after the fact. Um, and we're left with very little copies.
We are, as New Testament scholars have said, are often embarrassed by just an overwhelming wealth of material as Christians. So, I would say on that front,
That is encouraging. And then as far as trusting the process, we have, um, you know, the early, uh, church theologians and apologists who validate, uh, the validity of the scriptures coming together, which is super encouraging as well. So, I wouldn't let that be a problem for trusting in the reliability of scripture, the fact that, you know, there's been so many manuscripts.
Uh, in fact, if anything, uh, let that be encouraging. And then just one final point, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in the 40s, what was so amazing is, yes, there's lots of um textual variants between the text that Erasmus used, um where he, he, uh, you know, was working with the Greek.
And the Texas Receptus, and then the Dead Sea Scrolls, what they provided was manuscripts that predated those by 1000 years. And that's astonishing to really think about, uh, predating that 1000 years. So, the version that the King James was, you know, built off of was Erasmus text, the Texas Receptus.
And they thought that they had something going pretty good there, right? Now imagine in the 40s, 1940s, the Dead Sea scrolls come and go, wow, we have earlier manuscripts that preceded by 1000 years. This is amazing. And that's why some of these newer versions started to come out as well. Metzger. Yeah, we'll just add a few more to kinda bolster what you're already hitting on there, Bobby, and that is one, and you'll hear this kind of brought up by anybody that, you know, looking at the reliability of scripture.
And just the veracity of the story, you're gonna look at eyewitness accounts, and so, you know, I know that's more to the resurrection itself, but you're also you're gonna consider eyewitness accounts and the validity of this story over centuries, another thing you're gonna wanna consider is archaeology.
The Bible, you know, as Bobby just said, here we have this book, Isaiah, you know, 1000 years earlier than when Erasmus had original or his manuscripts, and yet, you know, when you consider archaeology and the Bible, the Bible's never been proven to be wrong. There's still areas that we're waiting for, you know, validity. Nothing has ever been proven to be wrong. So every time they, you know, here's like a common phrase, every time you dig, you prove the Bible.
And so, you know, we see something really beautiful about that and then the the last area I'd want to mention is prophecy.
The Bible's filled with a prophetic voice, meaning God speaking about events that would happen in the future, and the Bible is filled with prophetic, uh, words, all of them coming true thus far. Now we're, we're still waiting for a few prophecies to be fulfilled, the biggest one being the second coming. But prophecy is such an incredible expression of to, to validate the scriptures as being from from God, Brian.
Uh this is, this is such a um an important subject and it and it's a great subject and there's so much good material written on this. Um, I think my favorite, I've just given a book recommendation here right now. I think my favorite book right now on this topic is Amy or Ewing's book, um.
You can trust the Bible, I think is the name of it, or can, can we can we can trust the Bible, yeah, we uh why trust the Bible? Yes, Amy did just an extraordinary job on this book, and I've read at least, you know, 20 books on this topic and
Uh, this is currently my, my favorite one on it, so yeah, yeah, and there's so much like you, you guys are saying, you know, with the manuscript evidence and like you're saying, Bobby, you know, between, uh, not only the numbers of manuscripts so far exceed anything from the ancient world that everybody thinks is, oh well of course that's the way it happened, uh, thousands and thousands of manuscripts versus in the most hundreds. I think what is it the Iliad has, I think it's 600.
Um, manuscripts, and that's by far the most. Yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, when you start thinking about, yeah, like 15, 600 yeah, yeah, and um, when you look at all of the manuscripts compiled together with, you know, full manuscripts and pieces of manuscripts, you have 25,000.
You know, pieces of, of, um, the, the scriptures, a mile and a half high worth of manuscripts versus about 3 ft, yeah, in comparison, uh, uh, I mean, it's just incredible. And so, you know, and, and then you've got, so you've got the numbers and like Bobby said, but then you've got the distance of time between the actual writing and the copy.
And the New Testament, there, there are fragments of the New Testament that are dated to the first century, so they're they're pieces of, of the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of John that go back to the to just a few decades, um, and.
In some cases, maybe right around the time, some people think John wrote his gospels and Revelation in in about 90 AD. Well, they have New Testament, um, fragments that date at 90 AD. So, yeah. So anyway, there's tons and tons and tons of evidence out there. Bobby.
Yeah, and maybe just one more piece that I would share is
What also gives us confidence is now we're talking about the abundance of manuscripts earlier, uh, recorded ones, but then their scrupulosity, their meticulousness in making these manuscripts. The scribes were so careful, um, and so, in other words, uh, you gotta realize that because they believe this was truth,
And they believed that God was sacred.
They were so diligent in copying that it'd be like, after every time you come to the end of a sentence, you're going back and recounting to make sure that you have 47, uh, 400 or, or, you know, 47 letters for that sentence, let's say, uh, and you go back and you count it. Uh, it like it was a slow process because there was lots of pausing.
Lots of checking, where you wouldn't have had that same cautiousness with other manuscripts that you were trying to, uh, put out because you didn't think it was God's word. And so all that to say, because of that belief that they believed it was God's word, um,
You know, there's other things that we have to look at, right? Just cause someone does a good job copying some doesn't mean it's God's word, but it does let you know that because they believed it was God's word, it shows that they took it with great seriousness, and it was probably a lot less sloppy than other just dealing with, you know, tacitus in dealing with some of his stuff, uh, and someone trying to translate that over. So anyway, those are some thoughts for food.
Mike, thank you for calling us today on Pastor's Perspective. And again, the book that Pastor Brian mentioned called Why Trust the Bible by Amy or Ewing, one of the two. No, Amy or Ewing, that's her name. Anyway, 888-564-6173 is our number, and now here's Kimberly in Tampa, Florida, watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Kimberly. Thanks for calling in today.
Hi.
What's going on? Uh, thank you, uh, pastor, so much for taking my call, um.
I'm curious about the millennial kingdom. Um, when we come back with the Lord on our beautiful horses, um, the Lord says that we will rule and reign with him during the millennial kingdom, but women are not supposed to take a position over authority over a man, and we're not supposed to teach men.
But, so, as far as the millennial kingdom would go, what do you see that the women would be doing? I saw Bobby and Phil kind of step away, step back from their microphones. They want Brian to, you know, in the millennium, one of the things we know about the millennium, there's gonna be tons and tons of food. So of course, the women will be in the kitchen making.
The views expressed on this program, I, this is Phil Metzer. I do not stand with Brian Broderson right now. Bobby and I do not stand with Brian Bro. Yeah, I don't think I can either. that was a joke. Uh, I just did it for the sake of the sake of my friends here. Bobby just when you talk about food, it makes him not feel so good, so.
Well, Kimberly, you know, for one, even today, some ideas about what women can and can't do are interpreted through a cultural lens rather than a biblical lens. And so I think all three of us here and Brian probably too.
Uh, in the studio, we, we would tend to believe that women can do a lot more in church life than maybe some of our friends would believe on that. But I, let's just fast forward to the millennium. This is a whole different thing when we get into the millennium. So ruling and reigning, it's not gonna be a matter of, well, you know, look, you're, you're a lady, so you, you're not gonna be able to do that.
Um, that's just not going to be the case. Even in human history, we have a woman named Deborah, who actually was the ruler and she was a judge in Israel, and she led the Israelites in in battle and in victory. Um, and so, you know, these kind of cultural types of things and, and some of them obviously have some biblical.
Uh, basis to him as well, but this is gonna be a different story when we get into the millennium. So, I don't think there's any um current.
Understanding that we need to transfer over into the future and try to figure out, oh gee, what are, what are ladies gonna do? Um, you're gonna rule and reign with Jesus and that's gonna look different for all of us. I don't even know what it's gonna look like for anybody, but, uh, we know it's gonna happen and isn't the operative where they're like, it's with Jesus, like he's he's the ruler, he's the ruler he's reigning and then we get to reflect his, you know, authority in the world.
It's not, it's not that we become the authority. We're reflecting here so think of the millennium as like identification and participation. I am identified with Christ and his authority and I'm participating in his, in his kingdom as ruling and reigning, but it's, it's totally his rule. Yeah. I heard. What do you think, Kimberly?
No, that's great. I appreciate that so much. Well, thank you for calling in today on Pastor's Perspective. You know, I was in Tampa, Florida last week and I was in Saint Petersburg and I was in Bradenton and Sarasota.
And then the week before that I was in South Florida and I was in Orlando, so I was all over the state of Florida and you had a great time. Yeah, it was good. OK, I, it just dawned on me, as Phil was giving that utterly brilliant answer, have we acknowledged the fact that we now have another doctor among us has been acknowledged. He's such a humble guy. He's more humble than you are. He hasn't mentioned. He hasn't mentioned him.
He has not Doctor Phil I met Doctor Phil. Doctor Phil, Doctor Phil is on our programs on your program, uh, completing his PhD. Good job. Thank you. I appreciate that. Oh my goodness, I was in, uh, in February. I got that wrapped up. I did my hearing and man, was it a good thing to be done. I've just been binging shows and not reading books.
Seriously it's like a reset of your brain. Oh my gosh, I know. I seriously, I like when I, you know, finished my degree, I was like, I don't, I can't read anything for a long time. I can't do it. I don't know how you guys do it. That is crazy. 888-564-6173. Lynn in Rancho Cucamonga. You are next on Pastor's Perspective. Hello.
Hi, nice to talk to you all. Thank you so much for all you do. I've listened to you all for years. Thank you. Um, I'm reading 1 Samuel chapter 5, and I wanted to know how could the art of God be carried by others without them perishing? I always thought only the Levite priests could carry it.
Hm, what do you think? Well, it was the Levite priests to carry it, but I'm not in for Samuel 5 yet, so I'm, I'm looking for that, um, but OK. Let me, uh, is there something specific? Yeah. Um, I, I believe when they stole it, they took the ark. I was reading the the Philistines, when the Philistines took it, right, well, of course they were not.
They are not a part of, they weren't like God's covenant people, so those were those were standards that God had established, and by the way, later on in that, I think it's either in that chapter or the next, there is a, you know, disturbance that causes them to to ask the Jewish people to come back and take the ark, so, uh, they did just kind of move the ark and but then later boy things got real bad for them and they got rid of that thing so.
And then when it came back to Israel, then there was, it was again in the in the hands of God's covenant people and those those expectations that God had put on them became uh reality again and, and you can see in the passage in in chapter 5, you see where uh.
It's, it's almost like a, a mercy in a sense, you know, on these pagan Philistines that God doesn't just automatically slay them, right? But he uses this as a lesson to show his superiority over the gods of the Philistines because they put the ark in the temple of Dagon, and when they come the next day, Dagon is on his face and then they they put him back up and they get them all sorted again.
Then the next day they come back and he's not only in his face, his hand off, yeah, so, so God used it as as an object lesson, um, and, and the reason why.
Um,
The, you know, you have the incident with um Uza who touches the ark and and dies on the spot during the time where David's transporting it and the situation there was that they just were ignoring all of the instruction that God had given.
To them on how to do it, and that was the, the lesson there, you know, pay attention to what God has said. So. OK. Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. That really helps. I've been really enjoying uh that read, so yeah, it's it's exciting stuff, yeah. I love her.
Thank you, Lynn. Have a great day. You too. Great hearing from you. Thanks for calling 888-564-6173. Now let's go to Morrow in San Bernardino before we, uh, end the show until tomorrow. Sorry, uh, Morrow, what is your question for us today on Pastor's perspective?
Uh, yes, on Genesis 11:7.
God says, let us come down. Who's God speaking to and he says, let us come down. Who is the US? Well, I'm gonna, Bobby, did you wanna say something? Go ahead. Did you wanna go first? Um, I'm, some would say that this is what is known as a plural of majesty. So, uh, that's one possibility where God is so great, he's speaking of himself in the plural, a plural of majesty.
Uh, this has been used of people of regal stature throughout history. Uh, others would say that it, it refers to the angels, so maybe a select group of angels, um, and then others would want to say that this is triune in nature. Uh, I don't, uh,
Really know how I put all that together, to be honest with you. I kind of like learning about the options and, and just thinking, you know, uh, because I'm, there's different times where you see this language where God comes down and it, OK, there's, there's something powerful going on here where, you know, Abraham goes, I saw the Lord.
Uh, but then other times it's an angel. So, I mean, could it be that on one occasion, it's a plural of majesty on another occasion, it's, you know, a pre-incarnate, uh.
Appearance of Christ and on another occasion, it's some angels. Uh, so, you know, that's some of the language. So you see that in different places and that picks up, uh, that led us language in Genesis one.
Yeah, I was just gonna add to that too, maybe another one of those and it might be connected more to the majestic element but there is, and I don't know that this is, I don't know if this is true in in I mean true in many languages is that you have an informal language and a formal language and so when you speak in like a formal language, you use the they them in ways that we don't in English, you use the us, they, them in ways we just don't have that, we don't have that language. So.
It would be odd that God was yeah they are, yeah, but that's that's that's identity, but this is a way of like, like say you're a school, a student and your teacher comes in, you would refer to them in a formal way as them like I'm I'm honoring them. It's a majestic it's like I'm it's it's a way of honoring this person.
And I tend to think that maybe it connects to that majestic, but it's a bit of a formal kind of a, I think besides English language, many languages have that formal language that requires you to speak that way. Well, here, here's an interesting thing. Number one.
The first, uh, you know, the first place you alluded to it, Bobby is Genesis chapter one where God says, let us make man in our image. So clearly, and there there was debate for centuries among rabbis who, you know, who is God talking about it is he talking about the angels and.
And I think, you know, we know that man is created in the image of God, angels are different and the New Testament makes that clear to us that angels are different. So I think that this is a, um, you know, there's these early hints at the plurality we we know God, uh, Elohim is plural as well in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth is the Hebrew word Elohim, which is a plural, um, so in all of these you.
You don't have a an overt declaration of the plurality within the divine nature, but I think you we're getting hints at it. And I, and so I think Genesis 11 is that. And also, um, I read this, guys, that
In among the Hebrews and in Hebrew literature, there is no majestic plural. They never used it. They never used it. Surrounding nations did, but the Hebrew Hebrews did. Fascinating, and I can't remember where I read it, but I just read it, thought, wow, that's interesting. Bobby, you gotta find that. Yeah. Well, I think um I, I, I sometimes wonder if it's possible that angels are created in the image of God too, and, and I would get at it by this like I we're certainly different.
Um, but it, it, it's, it's from the standpoint, OK, so if we say, what does it mean to be created an image of God? That we're rational, that we're emotional, that we have intellect, that we're moral beings, we scratch at those and go, OK, well, are angels rational? Do they emote? Do they have volition? Are they moral beings? And so you go, OK, so there's some similarities that they would have in that way. So then maybe what would distinguish
That extra created in the image of God be. So, like, is God so great that angels could be created in His image and humans could be created in His image as well. That's just the thought that I would chew on. For the Genesis one, I would see that.
Um,
OK. Well, have a great, have a great weekend, uh, at apologetics conference. Yes, so good to see you, Brian and Phil. I wish I could have been there with you guys in studio. Yeah, it may be time. Deserts.com is the website where you can find out more about.
Boy this weekend in the Coachella Valley, Desert Apologetics.com. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. We will be here again tomorrow between 3 and 40 p.m. Pacific time for Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway and Phil Metzger. I'm Brian Perez. Thank you so much for listening and watching Pastor's Perspective.
