Hi, and welcome to Out of Office. I'm your host, Malika ka Poor. As many of you know by now, this podcast features interviews with global business leaders around the theme of life and leadership. But there's no corporate talk here. We talk about things executives don't usually get asked about informal interviews, in panel discussions or when they're in the office. We talk about mentors, successes, low points, downtime, music and books, family, faith and love, because all these influences define people and make them who they are. My guest today is Kevin Sneider, the global managing Partner of McKinsey and Company. It is not a lifelong, determined drive to be there. It was an accident involving a large ginion bar and a very kind person in Wandon to pet the path. That's how I ended up at McKinsey and Company. That's just one of the remarkable story is Kevin shared about his journey from entry level consultant to the head of one of the most powerful consulting companies in the world. We talked about Scottish values and I felt those set of values very strongly and still due to this day, and it does influence on my mind, how we think about community and the role of community and the role of society, and the fact that there is more to it than simply business is business. How his wife has shaped his views on equality. I remember being at a client event where she happened to be standing next to me, and I saw somebody run over handed a documenty any chance you can give us a quick copy, And they just assumed that her role must be different to mine. And what makes him grumpy? Remember watching Barack Obama interviewed on the day after he won. It was very soon after he won, and somebody said, what are you gonna do? And he said, I'm off to the gym. And I thought, if the President elect of America has time to go to the gym, I think I can go if I don't. And I have to admit there are the odd days, although it really it's very few, and I don't get really grumpy. Yeah, and it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. So I go back to the gym. Kevin Sneider is engaging with the media more than any of his predecessors ever did. Later on he'll explain why. So here it is a relaxed freewheeling, wide ranging and informal conversation with a global managing partner of Mackenzie and Company, Kevin, Welcome to out of office. Sure, nice to be with you. Thank you for inviting me. Out of office takes on a whole new meaning these days because we're both working out of office. I was working from home, going for you, Well, I'm working from my wife's parents place in Florida, and so it's got a whole new connotation. I've now spent more time with my in laws than ever. It's going well, we're enjoying each other, but it's far from home home in Hong Kong and we're in Florida, so we're a long way from home, and we have been for quite some time. I mean, we ended up leaving Hong Kong for Chinese New Year because my father's eightieth first in Scotland, so we headed to Glasgow and we were there, and while we were in Glasgow, the Hong Kong school system started to indicate that the schools were going to close. And my younger daughter is still at high school, she's a senior in Hong Kong. When it became clear things were not opening up anytime soon, my wife and my daughter headed to her parents place in Florida, and I joined them three weeks ago. So that's how we ended up a long way from Hong Kong, and of course then the borders closed and it became impossible to get back. So we're waiting for the possibility of going home, and we certainly plan to go home because my younger daughter does hope that the senior problem will happen, high school graduation will take place, all those rituals that are so important, very important milestones they are. We don't do them in Scotland, or at least we didn't when I was a child, but she cares deeply as do we, that she gets a chance to do them. So we're optimistic and hopeful they given as you says, things in Hong Kong have moved to a better place, that we will be able to get back and she will do our two weeks of quarantine and then she'll be able to go to the problem. That's the hope. So now you know the coronavirus has reaped havoc across a globe on societies and companies. What's the impact being on mckenzy first and foremost, we've had seventy two colleagues thus far who have been positive diagnosed positive with coronavirus itself. So our first thoughts so with everybody who's impacts from a health point of view, not just the colleagues, but families of colleagues. Sadly, I know of people whose parents, the elderly parents, have been very impacted. So that's been the biggest impact. Let's be clear, it's been the health situation. The second impact is, and it's much lesser compared to that, is, of course we've had to change how we do what we do. We've had to move from being in our offices, traveling to be with our clients to being remote working from home, being on our own or with our families, and that's been of course, that's had a huge shift. And the third impact is on our clients. You know, we are a client service organizations, so our clients are going through a whole series of challenges and we feel for them and we want to help them, and the way we help them has had to change. So it's had a profound impact, some of which I think is going to be continued long after the virus has passed. In terms of the way we work. Some of it, I hope will be restricted to this period of time, but it's definitely had a profound impact. You have a massive workforce, More than thirty people walk the McKinsey around the world. How are you, as their leader, keeping them calm and keeping them motivated through a crisis like this? Well, look, I'm blessed to be a part of a partnership that does span the world and has leaders across the world, so it's not just about me. But I do recognize that at times like this, people are looking for leadership from their partners that are in their offices, from those of us who are tasked with helping the partnership globally, and therefore I think it's important to do a few things. One is to be proactive in terms of engaging with people who I've never felt more attached actually to the firm than I do now because we've had many more opportunities to talk to each other through video conferencing, through convening groups of people with passionate concerns and interests that mean they want to get together and discuss them. The second part is trying to be transparent as to the impact on ourselves as a firm. You know, we are an organization that clearly, like others, as being impacted in terms of what we can do and how we can do it. So my task is to help share the reality of what that means for us, and to provide a perspective and how we're going to conduct ourselves at this time. So there's a lot of this that really requires thoughtful, tailored and appropriate communication. Rather than blasting out a set of inspirational messages, I think it's more important to really understand and try and engage at a very personal level. Even if we have thirty plus people, I still think that's possible. You've always valued that people skills in the person to person contact. Do you think that's the most important quality? Do you prize that quality the most? Well, you know, it's hard for me to say that I've any personal quality. I'll talk a bit about what I think some of the things that matter at this time. I think in a place where there's lots of reasons to get very dark and very worried and very concerned, it's important to also try and bring a bit of optimism. Um, I have seen the best of humanity in the midst of all these challenges because I've seen people rally to help each other in a very personal way, help each other from a healthcare point of view, you know, literally try and provide contacts and connections and understanding of what it is that they're going through in a very personal way and help them resolve that. I've seen unbelievable personal service. We have many, many medics who are part of the McKinsey family but have gone back to serve in the front lines. Doctors, nurses, analysts, all of whom have put themselves at the service of the community to try and make it different. So it's been a time when there's so much good that people are doing in the face of so much that's bad. I think one of the task of leaders is to make sure that doesn't get lost, because it should give us all hope and maybe even confidence that this, too, is something we can defeat and overcome. And I've been very heartened by that, and I think the leaders at this moment are those who, on the one hand, have an optimism, a sense of confidence in the way in which we will together tackle what we're facing, as well as a sense of realism, because I don't think it helps to also try and pretend that this isn't a deep, deep challenge. It's going to endure for some time. So I think of those of optimism, confidence, but realism is what leadership needs to bring in these hours. I want to talk a little bit about your background, and I know you've been at McKinsey a very long time, but you're somewhat of an accidental management consultant. And the way you got into mckensey has to do with a story that revolves around a bar. Yes, it does, actually a very large one. So do tell me a little bit about that. I am an accidental management concern. Yeah, I think I have to be honest. I mean, I'm sure many can tell you that vocation is always to be a management concon I can't say that now. I was a law student. I was a law student back in Glasgow UM at my local University of Glasgow University, and I also I spent a lot of time involved in running our student union, which was the largest bar in Glasgow in many ways. We had about five bars within one building and it was the hobby student life and I was very proud to be involved with it and took my role very seriously. And part of my role was to chuck people out at the end of the evening. We had a group of us that were responsed for shutting down the building. Very important both the job, secure the building and make sure everyone's gone home. And I was doing that and one night I did it and I found left lying on the table recruiting buschure and I started to read it and it was for mckenzy, and it sounded really interesting, and I thought, well, I've sort of been figuring for a while. I don't think I want to be a Scots lawyer, even though I actually very interested in the subject, but I didn't see that as my vocation in life. So I sent a note off to mckensey, a letter back in those days, saying I was interested. And I heard back that, you know, unfortunately we don't really have a position for you, but my father is from Scotland. Why don't you come and meet us. And so I was very happy to accept an invitation to fly down to London, and didn't fly very often if I never got on a planetil it was twenty one, so it was a big treat. So I went to London and I met with this person and I thought this sounds really interesting, but they aren't interesting me because they at that point only really hired from Oxford, Cambridge University of London. They didn't hire from Glasgow University. But this person very kind of said, look, you seem interesting, why don't we give you a shot? And the rest of this history. That's how I ended up at McKinsey and Company. It was not a lifelong, determined drive to be there. It was an accident involving a large ginion bar and a very kind of person in London. You took pity on me perhaps or saw something in me that reminded them of their Scottish heritage. That's how I got there. That's a great story. Have you changed your hiring practices? Do you hire from Glasgow University? Now? We do? We do. I'm proud to say we we have several Scottish people in this firm and we now recognize that are many places from which talent comes, and we've certainly cast a much bigger net than we did back then. So what does it take for an entry level consultant to make it to global managing partner? Well, I mean the first thing I would say is enjoy what you're doing. I mean, if I look back on my thirty years at Mackenzie again, I've been someone who has followed what I've really enjoyed and wanted to do. I don't think I've thought of it in terms of this step will lead to that step, which will lead to this role in that job. I just don't think that's how it works. And so one of the things that I was passionate about was I said I hadn't been on a plan until I was twenty one. That is true, and I wanted to turn away, makeup and see the world because I hadn't had that chance as a kid. My parents were teachers, and you know when one was the universal lecture, the other was a teacher. We had long summer holidays which involved taking our caravan driving south, causing traffic jams all the way to the south of England, and then occasionally hopping over to France. The world's a big place. I arrived at McKenzie and suddenly heard people talking about that, and I was given the chance to go and work overseas, initially in Paris office. And I worked in Paris and loved that. Then I met my wife, who had a real interest in Asia, and she said we should go to Asia because she had worked in Japan before. So off we went to Hong Kong and then Beijing, went back to Hong Kong, went back to London, then off to New Jersey and the east coast of the U. S which is where my wife's originally from. So we've traveled all over and I think that's been a big part of who I am, and it gives you a different vantage point on the challenges we face and a bit of a perspective on the way in which the world can fracture and the future sure of the world. So from that point of view, I think my advice because I look back in my career and it would be wrong and misleading, it would be alive for me to say it was all planned. It wasn't. It was a very much an outcome of making these geographic moves that introduced me to people who then say why don't you do this, why don't you do that? And it frankly increased the options I had to do different things. And that's why I think I've been able to have so fortunate to have had the career I've had. And I would say to anyone listening. Really, I think the biggest value is be open to new experiences and sees on them. And we don't overthink it. It's very tempting to do so, but things are too complicated. And if you follow what you're passionate about and the things you're really interested in, I really do believe good things will mostly happen. Let's go back to your childhood and Scotland for a minute. You grew up in a Jewish family in Scotland, so essentially you could say you grew up as a minority or an outsider. What did that teach you? Well, I did. I was part of a very close family. As I said, my father is a university lecturer, my mother as a teacher, and religion played a big part in there in our lives, and we were part of a tight community. And my mother actually was the head of the nursery school, the sort of kindergarten for kids at the Jewish primary school there was one in the whole of Scotland. My mother headed up the nursery team and I went to that school, but the school ended when I was twelve and I then went to a grammar school, a very high quality wonderful school for which I have huge admiration and regard. But it was the first time I actually moved outside the Jewish community. And I can remember turning up there. Unlike everyone in Glasgow, you support a football team. You either support Glasgow Celtic or you support Glasgow Rangers. There are a few other teams. Those two dominate Glasgow and dominate Scottish football. And I remember turning up and my school was full of people who support a Glasgow Rangers. And I remember one of my friends, somebody made friends with early, said you know you support Glasgow Celtic. I mean yes. He said, your name Kevin Sneader. What sort of name is that? And I said, well, you know, I'm Kevin and Sneaders my son. He said no, no no, no, what sort of name is that? And I said, well it's a Jewish name anyway. Oh but are you are Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew? Because I'm a bit confused. You support Celtic, but all of us support Rangers. And you know, it was it was the first time I sort of realized that actually I was an outsider here. I was. I'd come in and as far as they were concerned. In this case, I was a Catholic Jew, which they thought was all very strange. And as a result it did make me think. I have to say, people are incredibly welcoming. I did not experience anti Semitism to any material degree whilst at school. In fact, quite the diverse people were incredibly interested and supportive. But I know that's not always the case. But it did make sure that I understood what it was and what it felt like to be a minority, to be someone who didn't quite belong. And it does make you more aware. And today it makes me very aware when I look around and I see people who are in a room and they might be the only woman, the only colored person, the only gay person, and I do worry and think about how are they feeling? And so it certainly changes and gives you an awareness of what it's like to be in a minority. Both your parents were academics. Did you ever consider following in their footsteps and going into that world of teaching in academia. No, I didn't, I have to say, I just didn't. When I was I was so into the University of Life in terms of the student union. Previously, I've been really interplaying rugby. Then I injured my knee and destroyed my knee and that was the end of my rugby career. And then I took up public speaking, debating into that, and then I get into the student union, and so I was very much at university. There was there's a sign in our university in Glasgow that says the university gave you a degree. The union gave you an education. And I sort of adhere to that, you know, I do think that I got the degree. I loved my time there, but it was all the other people I met, the experiences. I had the opportunity to interact with folk that were coming to speak in our debates, were politicians or world leaders. The chance to go to this football match, stand in the terraces I hope that comes back sway with the crowd, and have a conversation with someone whose life was so different to mine, who for whom their release from the challenges of unemployment. In those days, most of the people I would stand next to were either unemployed or had really tough jobs, and just chanting to them and understanding their lives, which you do when you travel up to a game and you go back and you're all supporting the same team that gave me an education and a compure. You're part of that one community, but also gives you an insight into what life is really like. I can remember. I can remember somebody was complaining one of my teams about what, you know, the hardships they were facing. I just said, listen. I can remember talking to folk who didn't know how they were going to pay their rent, who couldn't figure out how they were going to get the shopping done. That's hardship. Please never mistake the challenges of a life as a professional with a white collar from the realities of the hardship that those who really know what adversity looks like and the austerity that goes with it remember that. So. I think that's what university did for me. It gave me a whole different education as a result. It's not that I don't volume and mare the academic world. I think now more than ever we all admire it. We need the science, we need the research, all the things that university brings. It just wasn't for me what I wanted to do. You've said before today, even though I've lived all over the world, my outlook remains rooted in Scotland and Scottish community values. So what are those Scottish community values and how have they shaped you? Well? The reason I say that is part of it is just the city itself and understanding the mix of people in a city like Glasgow. Glasgows an industrial town. Its heritage was steelmaking, coal mining, industrial manufacturing. It was the place that powered the British Empire. At one level is the second city of the Empire are and then it fell on hard times because all those trades went out as modernization occurred and the services took over. I'm proud to say Glasgow found a path through that. But in the early eighties it was not looking so good, and it really then put in sharp relief or contrast the desire to keep this great city moving with the real economic challenges it was facing. And I saw again in that adversity amazing human spirit. Out of that adversity, people still looked to a positive future. People were still looking out for each other. They didn't like the government very much, but they felt very strongly about keeping the community together, having an ethic of work. People who are of a very strong work ethic. I believe in Glasgow in Scotland, but channeling that in the service of the community. And I felt those set of values very strongly and still due to this day, and it does influence in my mind how we think about community and the role of community and the role of society, and the fact that there is more to it than simply business is business. I can remember when I was at university there was a violent debate and it sometimes was violent around the business of business is business or is it something more than that? And I now look back in those days and recognize it's something more than that. You know, business has an obligation to the community. It is a very important part of providing the economic engine that allows people to live out their dreams. But with that comes a responsibility to give back, to find a way to account for all the stakeholders. I don't believe that business can operate in a vacuum. If the community is not doing well, business will not do well. And Adam Smith wrote about that. Adam Smith is probably the proudest or one of the proudest a Lungs we have from Glasgow University and he wrote many things. He wrote The Wealth of Nations, which many know. Um I guess in seventeen seventy six, when a few things were happening in the world. That was where he published. But at twenty odd years before that he published something far more important when he was in his far more important role as a profit esser of model philosophy at Glasgow University, before he headed to a lesser institution Downsithe, And when he published that word, the Theory of Model Sentiment, it was about the role of the entrepreneur in the community, which I know modernly, I think you can take some modern days and say that is about the notion of a stakeholder economy where you take into account of other interests and purely the individual shareholder. So I think it's very much a part of Scottish heritage, of Glaswegian heritage, and as a product of that, I do take it very seriously. One of the things you're passionate about is gender equality. And you're a U and he for sh Ally and a number of people have I've spoken to have said, but Kevin Snider, this is truly something personal. He is truly committed to gender equality because it's personal. Why is it too personal to you? One of the things that made it all too personal for me was when my wife and I we met at business school. We were in the same class, same section, and we ended up joining mackenzy is what I would call it. Buy one, get one free. I was free because she was far more of interest, because she spoke Japanese, she had lived around the world, she was an amazing hockey player, an athlete. And then there was me, and so I very much, I very much felt I was going along for the ride. No, I promise you I was going on for the ride. And anyone who knows thot knows that's true. So I was going along for the ride. But we turned up in London in not that long ago, but in after business school. We turned up in London, and for a variety of reasons, she kept her name and I kept mine, or she reminded me. I didn't go to Harvard Business School to meet you. I went to have a career. So she has her name, and I loved that. Oh yes, I've never forgotten this. So we turned up in London, and if you didn't know we were together, you wouldn't know we were together because she has her name. I have mine, and you know, I thought, I thought mckensey would have been a pretty enlightened place. I thought London was metropolis, world class metropolis. And yet when she showed up, I saw things happen that really gave me a different vantage point into what it was like as a young woman in that in those days embarking on a professional career, such as what did you say? You know? I saw people, well, I mean just some basic stuff, you know. I saw people assume that when she showed up, if the two of us were there, they would talk, and they would look at me when they were talking about business, and only include her if they switched the conversation. These were colleagues. Or I remember being at a client event where she happened to be standing next to me, and I saw somebody run over and handed her documenty any chance you can give this a quick copy? And they just assumed that her role must be different to mine. Or I remember she got a review where it said that she, you know, she was too aggressive in the way that she communicated. And I thought nobody would say that about me, right, They would never say that to me, but they did feel free to say about her. You know, nobody would say that about a man, right, And it was just all these small, small ways to put someone down or that we're actually unconscious. Bias would be the modern terminology, and maybe that is what it was, because I think in many cases these were not ill intended in the sense of deliberately trying to appreciate me down. I think they were people who just didn't think. And when I saw that happening, of course you have to react to that, and so it became deeply personal because I don't want that to be the society I live and working. I don't want it to be the firm that I work with, and I know and believe we can do so much better than that. So it's always been there for me writ large, the things that she experienced. I don't want my daughters to see that. I don't want anyone to live through that. I want us all to be able to be at our best. And that's why it has been deeply and is deeply personal. And the good news is I believe it's deeply personal for so many men around the world. Forget just in our firm. I think it's so many of us feel as viscerally now, but we all need our experiences, and those were the experiences that meant it's deeply personal for me. Gender equality is something very passionate about, but it's not just gender equality. Since you came on board as global managing partner, you've brought on the first DNA chief at McKenzie. What are you hoping to achieve by giving somebody that responsibility. Well, when I came into this row, one of the things I was passionate about was indeed how we as a firm epitomize and bring to life all that we seek to do in the way of equality of all types. And that's why I was blessed to have an amazing woman take that on at Women called Lorena Ye, who has just been a dynamo when it has come to driving an agenda, but doing it in a way that brings other people with her. I felt that having that focus, having someone who can bring that to the four was vital. I also felt that it wasn't about what one person does. It never is, but it is helpful to someone who can coordinate, can bring together, can see what's happening, can take the calls when somebody say, Hey, I'm worried about something. And it wasn't because I wanted to pass off the responsibility I feel deeply about this, and I feel a deep personal responsibility to make sure we made progress. But I also felt we needed a step up in the attention we paid, the way in which we go about it. And I did that because I know that when we write about things like gender equality, it's vital that we do what we say, and we've got a long way to go, and I didn't want to shirk from admitting that either. That one of the reasons for doing this is say, hey, we need somebody because we've got to make progress. We aren't where we want to be. We've made a lot of progress, but I want us to keep going and I want us to get to where we aspire to be. And where we aspire to be is not where we are today. That's fantastic. Now. In the recent past, McKenzie has come under fire in the press for mckensey's involvement in a couple of projects, and one of them involved McKinsey advising a company and selling opioids. You've since said you want you won't work with opioids anymore. That's a significant u turn. Can you walk us through a little bit of the thinking before you made that decision? Well, one of the things which we have to tackle as a world that is increasingly complex in terms of who you work with and who you don't work with, and there's lots of dimensions to that. And then there are also issues where actually it becomes clear over time that a decision you make has to be different than the one you made originally. That's where I put the opioid situation. We now know what we need to do, and I don't think we should be in any way unwilling to admit it's time to make a change. And so that's why we made a very clear statement about what we will not do. And I feel that one of the realities that business leaders now have to confront is that you've got to embrace the reality that is going to be a lot more scrutiny there already is. There's going to be a lot more interest in what we do, and in that context, it is important to have to make some tough decisions, some of which are easier than others. I actually think once we sat down and had the benefit of understanding where we were in a set of issues around opioids, I felt that decision was clear. There will be other more difficult decisions where the world is wrestling with all sorts of questions around the relationship between the superpowers of this world, the relationship between different sectors, and how they're seen over time. Those decisions are the harder ones, where you've got to operate in places that are complicated. You have to decide if I pull out, am I actually helping or hurting? How do I ensure that we don't become tied any one country's agenda. Because we are a global firm, We're in many countries. We have a hundred and thirty plus office at sixty seven different countries, citizens literally from everywhere, and each and every one of those offices rightly understands that part of its role is to make a difference to the local communities. And so it's very easy to make statements that you can't then reconcile with that reality. And so the harder decisions we face into our decisions that business leaders around the world face into which around how are we going to navigate a far more complex world geopolitically and in many other dimensions. And that's where I think the tougher decisions lie. How much attention do you pay to the public perception of a particular company or a particular government. We we take seriously a number of factors that you have to weigh up in what you do and what you don't do, one of which, of course, is not just the perception but the reality of the place in which you're operating. So, for example, if you find yourselves in a country that and your variety of indexes, we happen to use one that the Economist Intelligence Unit produces scores lowly on democracy. Well, I think in that case we've made a decision that we won't work with for example, defense or surveillance and police forces and those kind of trades will have an agenda that's very much focused on education, health and other issues. So that way, we pay a lot of attention to the realities as objectively defined by a third party, and that's how we approach those challenges. But I don't gloss over the way in which sometimes public opinion may have one view, but it's public opinion in one part of the world, which may well have a very different view in another world. And again we have to take a more global view and understand how things differ in both perception and reality in different parts of the world. Over the last several years. Over the last several decades, actually a lot has been written about the mckenzy culture, and one word that comes up very often is the word secretive. And here you are trying to change that, and you're trying to make mckenzy a lot more transparent. Why did you think that time is right to do that? You're right, I mean, we are often described as secretive, and I think they is a good reason for that. And then a reason which I think is simply a dated The good reason is we believe in protecting the confidentiality of our clients. At the same time, the world has moved on in terms of its attitude towards business in general and indeed secret companies in particular. And there is many there are many more ways in which to assess what people are doing. You can go to linked in and see who they're linked to Facebook, see who their friends are, and you can sort of figure out where people are. So there's also just a new reality, which is society understandably and rightly expects to know more. And I believe it's possible to marry those two things. Maintain the confidential reality of our clients, but at the same time being more open about who we work with and what we're doing. And that's what we've been doing. I've, for example, probably appeared in more media interviews than my predecessors added together over ninety four years since we were founded. And that's a part of this reality. They're glad you're talking to us today. Part of the reality. We need to personalize the firm because the other things like there shouldn't be missed you about who works on the firm, who we are, where we come from. I think people will get to know us, and I hope as they get to know, as they understand that the confidentiality is motivated by a healthy regard for our clients, and the desire to be open is motivated by recognition that society does want to know who we are and that we're ready to meet that as far as we can, and we will be more open about who we are in the spirit of being more open about who you are. Tell me a little bit more about yourself. I know you're a huge sports fan. I am. You're also a fitness fanatic. Every who start your day at five thirty am at the gym, no matter what is that food. I did that this morning. Yes, no, look, and it wasn't the gym because we don't have a gym at my in laws, but we do have a machine that was able to use. No. In truth, I am there are many things I love to do outside of mckenzi. Family is of course huge, and I wish I had more time and spent more time with my family. That's the biggest regret about this role is it does it's very demanding, but my interest in work does date back. I love all sports. I love rugby, I love football, I actually grow into like American football, ice hockey. I like sports. I love the sort of clash of teams, mostly team sports, where you just see a team working together, full of incredible athletes who are determined to win, and I just love watching the clash that that creates and the personalities that get attracted to it. At the same time, I love history. I love reading about history and learning from history. I think one of the great regrets as we keep you know, we keep repeating the errors of the past, and understanding that I think is therefore one of the ways to avoid repeating them in the future. I love and have a passion for music. I love probably early eighties music, my wife would say, but actually it's broaden that because I get used to all the things my daughter's play. So there are many things I enjoy doing. The biggest enemy, of course, is time to do them all. And that's why the gym tends to happen early in the morning. But one of the things I did do I lost. I mean, back in the day, I remember this happening. I used to be a lot belier than I am today. And I remember watching Barack Obama interviewed on the day after he won. It was very soon after he won, and somebody said, what are you going to do? And he said, I'm off to the gym. And I thought, if the president elective America has time to go to the gym, I think I can go. And so I started this thing where every day, every day I can go because no one has an excuse. And so every day I go to the gym no matter what's happening, or I go somewhere and do some exercise, and that's become very important to me. And if I don't, and I have to admit that are the odd days, although really it's very few. When I don't, I get really grumpy. Do you get cranky And it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. So I go back to the game you've been You've been known to fire off emails from a treadmill. Has that ever happened? It does happen. No, it does happen. Um, it does happen, not as often as it used to. In truth, the demise of the BlackBerry and it's keyboard meant an end to that. So I rarely do it nowadays because my typing is just too horrendous. But it has happened. You know. I like to use an elliptical machine because I have a knee injury from my rugby days, and ellipticals are gentle on the knees, and therefore I can sometimes put my iPad up there and read, and occasionally will will send an email from there having read something. But there is some truth to that. There was a lot more truth two or three years ago when black Berry keyboards meant you could type really quickly, and I used to do that. But as my younger daughter reminded me yesterday, also meant that occasion that I would dropped the black Berry into the elliptical and you would hear the crunching noise, and that was the end of another black berry. So it was not a particularly wise thing, and I therefore didn't do it too often. One thing that will change, of course now is travel, and the way of doing business is likely to change. Looking ahead, just personally, you've got instinct, what do you think the new normal will look like? Well, I think one of the quotes that has really got my attention about what the future could be like as what the great American philosopher Yogi Berra the baseball player said, And he said, the future ain't what it used to be. So as we look ahead, let's I think in our heads have a sense we're not going back to what it was. We're gonna something different. Part of what will be different, I think, is I to choose to travel. I don't subscribe to the view there will be no travel, but I do think there's going to be a lot of desire and pressure to travel less for business. I think personal travel may actually look different, I mean more like it used to. But I think for business we were already facing that pressure because of the environment and sustainability in a sense, not just out it starting a pressure from our people that we wanted to travel less, to preserve the environment, to recognize the damage that's done. That's there and that's not gone away. It's just taken a back seat. But that will come back. And at the same time, we now have technology that allows us to do far more remotely than we could possibly have dreamt of even a few years ago, and reliably. I think that coming together with the sustainability issue and attitudes shifting towards how we spend our time. Plus of course it also means you can bring people in from anywhere if you use remote technologies and have a different type of gathering. I do think that business travel is going to be curtailed um whether in absolute terms it goes down because that's member there are also probably more people who have access to travel over time than in the past. But I nevertheless think that light for light business travel is going to indeed be depressed. I don't think it's going to disappear, though. I think the desire for humans to be with each other will come back, but it will be more thoughtful. It will be where it really matters. And I think the old days of just jumping on an aluminium tube a metal tube to fly to London for a couple of our meetings. You know, take a nine hour flight for two hours. Is that that I think it's gone? But I do think people will still travel, just in a different way and less than they did before for business. Well, hopefully it'll mean you'll have more time at home. One hope. So, Kevin's thanks very much for your time, and I hope you and your family stay well. Thank you very much. I greatly enjoyed the conversation, and I hope you stay well, and I hope everyone listening stay as well. That was Kevin Sneider of Mackenzie speaking to me on Out of Office, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I'll be back next week. Meanwhile, do check out other episodes of Out of Office. You'll find them on Apple podcast, Spotify, the Bloomberg Terminal, and on Bloomberg dot com. We're also on Twitter and a handle is simply at Podcasts. I'd love to hear from you. You can tweet me at This is Maliica. This episode was produced by Ya Joe's son and Laura Coulson. Thank you for listening, stay well, stay healthy, and I'll connect with you next week. Two People Poppe two people people in pep

Hi, and welcome to Out of Office. I'm your host, Malika ka Poor. As many of you know by now, this podcast features interviews with global business leaders around the theme of life and leadership. But there's no corporate talk here. We talk about things executives don't usually get asked about informal interviews, in panel discussions or when they're in the office. We talk about mentors, successes, low points, downtime, music and books, family, faith and love, because all these influences define people and make them who they are. My guest today is Kevin Sneider, the global managing Partner of McKinsey and Company. It is not a lifelong, determined drive to be there. It was an accident involving a large ginion bar and a very kind person in Wandon to pet the path. That's how I ended up at McKinsey and Company. That's just one of the remarkable story is Kevin shared about his journey from entry level consultant to the head of one of the most powerful consulting companies in the world. We talked about Scottish values and I felt those set of values very strongly and still due to this day, and it does influence on my mind, how we think about community and the role of community and the role of society, and the fact that there is more to it than simply business is business. How his wife has shaped his views on equality. I remember being at a client event where she happened to be standing next to me, and I saw somebody run over handed a documenty any chance you can give us a quick copy, And they just assumed that her role must be different to mine. And what makes him grumpy? Remember watching Barack Obama interviewed on the day after he won. It was very soon after he won, and somebody said, what are you gonna do? And he said, I'm off to the gym. And I thought, if the President elect of America has time to go to the gym, I think I can go if I don't. And I have to admit there are the odd days, although it really it's very few, and I don't get really grumpy. Yeah, and it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. So I go back to the gym. Kevin Sneider is engaging with the media more than any of his predecessors ever did. Later on he'll explain why. So here it is a relaxed freewheeling, wide ranging and informal conversation with a global managing partner of Mackenzie and Company, Kevin, Welcome to out of office. Sure, nice to be with you. Thank you for inviting me. Out of office takes on a whole new meaning these days because we're both working out of office. I was working from home, going for you, Well, I'm working from my wife's parents place in Florida, and so it's got a whole new connotation. I've now spent more time with my in laws than ever. It's going well, we're enjoying each other, but it's far from home home in Hong Kong and we're in Florida, so we're a long way from home, and we have been for quite some time. I mean, we ended up leaving Hong Kong for Chinese New Year because my father's eightieth first in Scotland, so we headed to Glasgow and we were there, and while we were in Glasgow, the Hong Kong school system started to indicate that the schools were going to close. And my younger daughter is still at high school, she's a senior in Hong Kong. When it became clear things were not opening up anytime soon, my wife and my daughter headed to her parents place in Florida, and I joined them three weeks ago. So that's how we ended up a long way from Hong Kong, and of course then the borders closed and it became impossible to get back. So we're waiting for the possibility of going home, and we certainly plan to go home because my younger daughter does hope that the senior problem will happen, high school graduation will take place, all those rituals that are so important, very important milestones they are. We don't do them in Scotland, or at least we didn't when I was a child, but she cares deeply as do we, that she gets a chance to do them. So we're optimistic and hopeful they given as you says, things in Hong Kong have moved to a better place, that we will be able to get back and she will do our two weeks of quarantine and then she'll be able to go to the problem. That's the hope. So now you know the coronavirus has reaped havoc across a globe on societies and companies. What's the impact being on mckenzy first and foremost, we've had seventy two colleagues thus far who have been positive diagnosed positive with coronavirus itself. So our first thoughts so with everybody who's impacts from a health point of view, not just the colleagues, but families of colleagues. Sadly, I know of people whose parents, the elderly parents, have been very impacted. So that's been the biggest impact. Let's be clear, it's been the health situation. The second impact is, and it's much lesser compared to that, is, of course we've had to change how we do what we do. We've had to move from being in our offices, traveling to be with our clients to being remote working from home, being on our own or with our families, and that's been of course, that's had a huge shift. And the third impact is on our clients. You know, we are a client service organizations, so our clients are going through a whole series of challenges and we feel for them and we want to help them, and the way we help them has had to change. So it's had a profound impact, some of which I think is going to be continued long after the virus has passed. In terms of the way we work. Some of it, I hope will be restricted to this period of time, but it's definitely had a profound impact. You have a massive workforce, More than thirty people walk the McKinsey around the world. How are you, as their leader, keeping them calm and keeping them motivated through a crisis like this? Well, look, I'm blessed to be a part of a partnership that does span the world and has leaders across the world, so it's not just about me. But I do recognize that at times like this, people are looking for leadership from their partners that are in their offices, from those of us who are tasked with helping the partnership globally, and therefore I think it's important to do a few things. One is to be proactive in terms of engaging with people who I've never felt more attached actually to the firm than I do now because we've had many more opportunities to talk to each other through video conferencing, through convening groups of people with passionate concerns and interests that mean they want to get together and discuss them. The second part is trying to be transparent as to the impact on ourselves as a firm. You know, we are an organization that clearly, like others, as being impacted in terms of what we can do and how we can do it. So my task is to help share the reality of what that means for us, and to provide a perspective and how we're going to conduct ourselves at this time. So there's a lot of this that really requires thoughtful, tailored and appropriate communication. Rather than blasting out a set of inspirational messages, I think it's more important to really understand and try and engage at a very personal level. Even if we have thirty plus people, I still think that's possible. You've always valued that people skills in the person to person contact. Do you think that's the most important quality? Do you prize that quality the most? Well, you know, it's hard for me to say that I've any personal quality. I'll talk a bit about what I think some of the things that matter at this time. I think in a place where there's lots of reasons to get very dark and very worried and very concerned, it's important to also try and bring a bit of optimism. Um, I have seen the best of humanity in the midst of all these challenges because I've seen people rally to help each other in a very personal way, help each other from a healthcare point of view, you know, literally try and provide contacts and connections and understanding of what it is that they're going through in a very personal way and help them resolve that. I've seen unbelievable personal service. We have many, many medics who are part of the McKinsey family but have gone back to serve in the front lines. Doctors, nurses, analysts, all of whom have put themselves at the service of the community to try and make it different. So it's been a time when there's so much good that people are doing in the face of so much that's bad. I think one of the task of leaders is to make sure that doesn't get lost, because it should give us all hope and maybe even confidence that this, too, is something we can defeat and overcome. And I've been very heartened by that, and I think the leaders at this moment are those who, on the one hand, have an optimism, a sense of confidence in the way in which we will together tackle what we're facing, as well as a sense of realism, because I don't think it helps to also try and pretend that this isn't a deep, deep challenge. It's going to endure for some time. So I think of those of optimism, confidence, but realism is what leadership needs to bring in these hours. I want to talk a little bit about your background, and I know you've been at McKinsey a very long time, but you're somewhat of an accidental management consultant. And the way you got into mckensey has to do with a story that revolves around a bar. Yes, it does, actually a very large one. So do tell me a little bit about that. I am an accidental management concern. Yeah, I think I have to be honest. I mean, I'm sure many can tell you that vocation is always to be a management concon I can't say that now. I was a law student. I was a law student back in Glasgow UM at my local University of Glasgow University, and I also I spent a lot of time involved in running our student union, which was the largest bar in Glasgow in many ways. We had about five bars within one building and it was the hobby student life and I was very proud to be involved with it and took my role very seriously. And part of my role was to chuck people out at the end of the evening. We had a group of us that were responsed for shutting down the building. Very important both the job, secure the building and make sure everyone's gone home. And I was doing that and one night I did it and I found left lying on the table recruiting buschure and I started to read it and it was for mckenzy, and it sounded really interesting, and I thought, well, I've sort of been figuring for a while. I don't think I want to be a Scots lawyer, even though I actually very interested in the subject, but I didn't see that as my vocation in life. So I sent a note off to mckensey, a letter back in those days, saying I was interested. And I heard back that, you know, unfortunately we don't really have a position for you, but my father is from Scotland. Why don't you come and meet us. And so I was very happy to accept an invitation to fly down to London, and didn't fly very often if I never got on a planetil it was twenty one, so it was a big treat. So I went to London and I met with this person and I thought this sounds really interesting, but they aren't interesting me because they at that point only really hired from Oxford, Cambridge University of London. They didn't hire from Glasgow University. But this person very kind of said, look, you seem interesting, why don't we give you a shot? And the rest of this history. That's how I ended up at McKinsey and Company. It was not a lifelong, determined drive to be there. It was an accident involving a large ginion bar and a very kind of person in London. You took pity on me perhaps or saw something in me that reminded them of their Scottish heritage. That's how I got there. That's a great story. Have you changed your hiring practices? Do you hire from Glasgow University? Now? We do? We do. I'm proud to say we we have several Scottish people in this firm and we now recognize that are many places from which talent comes, and we've certainly cast a much bigger net than we did back then. So what does it take for an entry level consultant to make it to global managing partner? Well, I mean the first thing I would say is enjoy what you're doing. I mean, if I look back on my thirty years at Mackenzie again, I've been someone who has followed what I've really enjoyed and wanted to do. I don't think I've thought of it in terms of this step will lead to that step, which will lead to this role in that job. I just don't think that's how it works. And so one of the things that I was passionate about was I said I hadn't been on a plan until I was twenty one. That is true, and I wanted to turn away, makeup and see the world because I hadn't had that chance as a kid. My parents were teachers, and you know when one was the universal lecture, the other was a teacher. We had long summer holidays which involved taking our caravan driving south, causing traffic jams all the way to the south of England, and then occasionally hopping over to France. The world's a big place. I arrived at McKenzie and suddenly heard people talking about that, and I was given the chance to go and work overseas, initially in Paris office. And I worked in Paris and loved that. Then I met my wife, who had a real interest in Asia, and she said we should go to Asia because she had worked in Japan before. So off we went to Hong Kong and then Beijing, went back to Hong Kong, went back to London, then off to New Jersey and the east coast of the U. S which is where my wife's originally from. So we've traveled all over and I think that's been a big part of who I am, and it gives you a different vantage point on the challenges we face and a bit of a perspective on the way in which the world can fracture and the future sure of the world. So from that point of view, I think my advice because I look back in my career and it would be wrong and misleading, it would be alive for me to say it was all planned. It wasn't. It was a very much an outcome of making these geographic moves that introduced me to people who then say why don't you do this, why don't you do that? And it frankly increased the options I had to do different things. And that's why I think I've been able to have so fortunate to have had the career I've had. And I would say to anyone listening. Really, I think the biggest value is be open to new experiences and sees on them. And we don't overthink it. It's very tempting to do so, but things are too complicated. And if you follow what you're passionate about and the things you're really interested in, I really do believe good things will mostly happen. Let's go back to your childhood and Scotland for a minute. You grew up in a Jewish family in Scotland, so essentially you could say you grew up as a minority or an outsider. What did that teach you? Well, I did. I was part of a very close family. As I said, my father is a university lecturer, my mother as a teacher, and religion played a big part in there in our lives, and we were part of a tight community. And my mother actually was the head of the nursery school, the sort of kindergarten for kids at the Jewish primary school there was one in the whole of Scotland. My mother headed up the nursery team and I went to that school, but the school ended when I was twelve and I then went to a grammar school, a very high quality wonderful school for which I have huge admiration and regard. But it was the first time I actually moved outside the Jewish community. And I can remember turning up there. Unlike everyone in Glasgow, you support a football team. You either support Glasgow Celtic or you support Glasgow Rangers. There are a few other teams. Those two dominate Glasgow and dominate Scottish football. And I remember turning up and my school was full of people who support a Glasgow Rangers. And I remember one of my friends, somebody made friends with early, said you know you support Glasgow Celtic. I mean yes. He said, your name Kevin Sneader. What sort of name is that? And I said, well, you know, I'm Kevin and Sneaders my son. He said no, no no, no, what sort of name is that? And I said, well it's a Jewish name anyway. Oh but are you are Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew? Because I'm a bit confused. You support Celtic, but all of us support Rangers. And you know, it was it was the first time I sort of realized that actually I was an outsider here. I was. I'd come in and as far as they were concerned. In this case, I was a Catholic Jew, which they thought was all very strange. And as a result it did make me think. I have to say, people are incredibly welcoming. I did not experience anti Semitism to any material degree whilst at school. In fact, quite the diverse people were incredibly interested and supportive. But I know that's not always the case. But it did make sure that I understood what it was and what it felt like to be a minority, to be someone who didn't quite belong. And it does make you more aware. And today it makes me very aware when I look around and I see people who are in a room and they might be the only woman, the only colored person, the only gay person, and I do worry and think about how are they feeling? And so it certainly changes and gives you an awareness of what it's like to be in a minority. Both your parents were academics. Did you ever consider following in their footsteps and going into that world of teaching in academia. No, I didn't, I have to say, I just didn't. When I was I was so into the University of Life in terms of the student union. Previously, I've been really interplaying rugby. Then I injured my knee and destroyed my knee and that was the end of my rugby career. And then I took up public speaking, debating into that, and then I get into the student union, and so I was very much at university. There was there's a sign in our university in Glasgow that says the university gave you a degree. The union gave you an education. And I sort of adhere to that, you know, I do think that I got the degree. I loved my time there, but it was all the other people I met, the experiences. I had the opportunity to interact with folk that were coming to speak in our debates, were politicians or world leaders. The chance to go to this football match, stand in the terraces I hope that comes back sway with the crowd, and have a conversation with someone whose life was so different to mine, who for whom their release from the challenges of unemployment. In those days, most of the people I would stand next to were either unemployed or had really tough jobs, and just chanting to them and understanding their lives, which you do when you travel up to a game and you go back and you're all supporting the same team that gave me an education and a compure. You're part of that one community, but also gives you an insight into what life is really like. I can remember. I can remember somebody was complaining one of my teams about what, you know, the hardships they were facing. I just said, listen. I can remember talking to folk who didn't know how they were going to pay their rent, who couldn't figure out how they were going to get the shopping done. That's hardship. Please never mistake the challenges of a life as a professional with a white collar from the realities of the hardship that those who really know what adversity looks like and the austerity that goes with it remember that. So. I think that's what university did for me. It gave me a whole different education as a result. It's not that I don't volume and mare the academic world. I think now more than ever we all admire it. We need the science, we need the research, all the things that university brings. It just wasn't for me what I wanted to do. You've said before today, even though I've lived all over the world, my outlook remains rooted in Scotland and Scottish community values. So what are those Scottish community values and how have they shaped you? Well? The reason I say that is part of it is just the city itself and understanding the mix of people in a city like Glasgow. Glasgows an industrial town. Its heritage was steelmaking, coal mining, industrial manufacturing. It was the place that powered the British Empire. At one level is the second city of the Empire are and then it fell on hard times because all those trades went out as modernization occurred and the services took over. I'm proud to say Glasgow found a path through that. But in the early eighties it was not looking so good, and it really then put in sharp relief or contrast the desire to keep this great city moving with the real economic challenges it was facing. And I saw again in that adversity amazing human spirit. Out of that adversity, people still looked to a positive future. People were still looking out for each other. They didn't like the government very much, but they felt very strongly about keeping the community together, having an ethic of work. People who are of a very strong work ethic. I believe in Glasgow in Scotland, but channeling that in the service of the community. And I felt those set of values very strongly and still due to this day, and it does influence in my mind how we think about community and the role of community and the role of society, and the fact that there is more to it than simply business is business. I can remember when I was at university there was a violent debate and it sometimes was violent around the business of business is business or is it something more than that? And I now look back in those days and recognize it's something more than that. You know, business has an obligation to the community. It is a very important part of providing the economic engine that allows people to live out their dreams. But with that comes a responsibility to give back, to find a way to account for all the stakeholders. I don't believe that business can operate in a vacuum. If the community is not doing well, business will not do well. And Adam Smith wrote about that. Adam Smith is probably the proudest or one of the proudest a Lungs we have from Glasgow University and he wrote many things. He wrote The Wealth of Nations, which many know. Um I guess in seventeen seventy six, when a few things were happening in the world. That was where he published. But at twenty odd years before that he published something far more important when he was in his far more important role as a profit esser of model philosophy at Glasgow University, before he headed to a lesser institution Downsithe, And when he published that word, the Theory of Model Sentiment, it was about the role of the entrepreneur in the community, which I know modernly, I think you can take some modern days and say that is about the notion of a stakeholder economy where you take into account of other interests and purely the individual shareholder. So I think it's very much a part of Scottish heritage, of Glaswegian heritage, and as a product of that, I do take it very seriously. One of the things you're passionate about is gender equality. And you're a U and he for sh Ally and a number of people have I've spoken to have said, but Kevin Snider, this is truly something personal. He is truly committed to gender equality because it's personal. Why is it too personal to you? One of the things that made it all too personal for me was when my wife and I we met at business school. We were in the same class, same section, and we ended up joining mackenzy is what I would call it. Buy one, get one free. I was free because she was far more of interest, because she spoke Japanese, she had lived around the world, she was an amazing hockey player, an athlete. And then there was me, and so I very much, I very much felt I was going along for the ride. No, I promise you I was going on for the ride. And anyone who knows thot knows that's true. So I was going along for the ride. But we turned up in London in not that long ago, but in after business school. We turned up in London, and for a variety of reasons, she kept her name and I kept mine, or she reminded me. I didn't go to Harvard Business School to meet you. I went to have a career. So she has her name, and I loved that. Oh yes, I've never forgotten this. So we turned up in London, and if you didn't know we were together, you wouldn't know we were together because she has her name. I have mine, and you know, I thought, I thought mckensey would have been a pretty enlightened place. I thought London was metropolis, world class metropolis. And yet when she showed up, I saw things happen that really gave me a different vantage point into what it was like as a young woman in that in those days embarking on a professional career, such as what did you say? You know? I saw people, well, I mean just some basic stuff, you know. I saw people assume that when she showed up, if the two of us were there, they would talk, and they would look at me when they were talking about business, and only include her if they switched the conversation. These were colleagues. Or I remember being at a client event where she happened to be standing next to me, and I saw somebody run over and handed her documenty any chance you can give this a quick copy? And they just assumed that her role must be different to mine. Or I remember she got a review where it said that she, you know, she was too aggressive in the way that she communicated. And I thought nobody would say that about me, right, They would never say that to me, but they did feel free to say about her. You know, nobody would say that about a man, right, And it was just all these small, small ways to put someone down or that we're actually unconscious. Bias would be the modern terminology, and maybe that is what it was, because I think in many cases these were not ill intended in the sense of deliberately trying to appreciate me down. I think they were people who just didn't think. And when I saw that happening, of course you have to react to that, and so it became deeply personal because I don't want that to be the society I live and working. I don't want it to be the firm that I work with, and I know and believe we can do so much better than that. So it's always been there for me writ large, the things that she experienced. I don't want my daughters to see that. I don't want anyone to live through that. I want us all to be able to be at our best. And that's why it has been deeply and is deeply personal. And the good news is I believe it's deeply personal for so many men around the world. Forget just in our firm. I think it's so many of us feel as viscerally now, but we all need our experiences, and those were the experiences that meant it's deeply personal for me. Gender equality is something very passionate about, but it's not just gender equality. Since you came on board as global managing partner, you've brought on the first DNA chief at McKenzie. What are you hoping to achieve by giving somebody that responsibility. Well, when I came into this row, one of the things I was passionate about was indeed how we as a firm epitomize and bring to life all that we seek to do in the way of equality of all types. And that's why I was blessed to have an amazing woman take that on at Women called Lorena Ye, who has just been a dynamo when it has come to driving an agenda, but doing it in a way that brings other people with her. I felt that having that focus, having someone who can bring that to the four was vital. I also felt that it wasn't about what one person does. It never is, but it is helpful to someone who can coordinate, can bring together, can see what's happening, can take the calls when somebody say, Hey, I'm worried about something. And it wasn't because I wanted to pass off the responsibility I feel deeply about this, and I feel a deep personal responsibility to make sure we made progress. But I also felt we needed a step up in the attention we paid, the way in which we go about it. And I did that because I know that when we write about things like gender equality, it's vital that we do what we say, and we've got a long way to go, and I didn't want to shirk from admitting that either. That one of the reasons for doing this is say, hey, we need somebody because we've got to make progress. We aren't where we want to be. We've made a lot of progress, but I want us to keep going and I want us to get to where we aspire to be. And where we aspire to be is not where we are today. That's fantastic. Now. In the recent past, McKenzie has come under fire in the press for mckensey's involvement in a couple of projects, and one of them involved McKinsey advising a company and selling opioids. You've since said you want you won't work with opioids anymore. That's a significant u turn. Can you walk us through a little bit of the thinking before you made that decision? Well, one of the things which we have to tackle as a world that is increasingly complex in terms of who you work with and who you don't work with, and there's lots of dimensions to that. And then there are also issues where actually it becomes clear over time that a decision you make has to be different than the one you made originally. That's where I put the opioid situation. We now know what we need to do, and I don't think we should be in any way unwilling to admit it's time to make a change. And so that's why we made a very clear statement about what we will not do. And I feel that one of the realities that business leaders now have to confront is that you've got to embrace the reality that is going to be a lot more scrutiny there already is. There's going to be a lot more interest in what we do, and in that context, it is important to have to make some tough decisions, some of which are easier than others. I actually think once we sat down and had the benefit of understanding where we were in a set of issues around opioids, I felt that decision was clear. There will be other more difficult decisions where the world is wrestling with all sorts of questions around the relationship between the superpowers of this world, the relationship between different sectors, and how they're seen over time. Those decisions are the harder ones, where you've got to operate in places that are complicated. You have to decide if I pull out, am I actually helping or hurting? How do I ensure that we don't become tied any one country's agenda. Because we are a global firm, We're in many countries. We have a hundred and thirty plus office at sixty seven different countries, citizens literally from everywhere, and each and every one of those offices rightly understands that part of its role is to make a difference to the local communities. And so it's very easy to make statements that you can't then reconcile with that reality. And so the harder decisions we face into our decisions that business leaders around the world face into which around how are we going to navigate a far more complex world geopolitically and in many other dimensions. And that's where I think the tougher decisions lie. How much attention do you pay to the public perception of a particular company or a particular government. We we take seriously a number of factors that you have to weigh up in what you do and what you don't do, one of which, of course, is not just the perception but the reality of the place in which you're operating. So, for example, if you find yourselves in a country that and your variety of indexes, we happen to use one that the Economist Intelligence Unit produces scores lowly on democracy. Well, I think in that case we've made a decision that we won't work with for example, defense or surveillance and police forces and those kind of trades will have an agenda that's very much focused on education, health and other issues. So that way, we pay a lot of attention to the realities as objectively defined by a third party, and that's how we approach those challenges. But I don't gloss over the way in which sometimes public opinion may have one view, but it's public opinion in one part of the world, which may well have a very different view in another world. And again we have to take a more global view and understand how things differ in both perception and reality in different parts of the world. Over the last several years. Over the last several decades, actually a lot has been written about the mckenzy culture, and one word that comes up very often is the word secretive. And here you are trying to change that, and you're trying to make mckenzy a lot more transparent. Why did you think that time is right to do that? You're right, I mean, we are often described as secretive, and I think they is a good reason for that. And then a reason which I think is simply a dated The good reason is we believe in protecting the confidentiality of our clients. At the same time, the world has moved on in terms of its attitude towards business in general and indeed secret companies in particular. And there is many there are many more ways in which to assess what people are doing. You can go to linked in and see who they're linked to Facebook, see who their friends are, and you can sort of figure out where people are. So there's also just a new reality, which is society understandably and rightly expects to know more. And I believe it's possible to marry those two things. Maintain the confidential reality of our clients, but at the same time being more open about who we work with and what we're doing. And that's what we've been doing. I've, for example, probably appeared in more media interviews than my predecessors added together over ninety four years since we were founded. And that's a part of this reality. They're glad you're talking to us today. Part of the reality. We need to personalize the firm because the other things like there shouldn't be missed you about who works on the firm, who we are, where we come from. I think people will get to know us, and I hope as they get to know, as they understand that the confidentiality is motivated by a healthy regard for our clients, and the desire to be open is motivated by recognition that society does want to know who we are and that we're ready to meet that as far as we can, and we will be more open about who we are in the spirit of being more open about who you are. Tell me a little bit more about yourself. I know you're a huge sports fan. I am. You're also a fitness fanatic. Every who start your day at five thirty am at the gym, no matter what is that food. I did that this morning. Yes, no, look, and it wasn't the gym because we don't have a gym at my in laws, but we do have a machine that was able to use. No. In truth, I am there are many things I love to do outside of mckenzi. Family is of course huge, and I wish I had more time and spent more time with my family. That's the biggest regret about this role is it does it's very demanding, but my interest in work does date back. I love all sports. I love rugby, I love football, I actually grow into like American football, ice hockey. I like sports. I love the sort of clash of teams, mostly team sports, where you just see a team working together, full of incredible athletes who are determined to win, and I just love watching the clash that that creates and the personalities that get attracted to it. At the same time, I love history. I love reading about history and learning from history. I think one of the great regrets as we keep you know, we keep repeating the errors of the past, and understanding that I think is therefore one of the ways to avoid repeating them in the future. I love and have a passion for music. I love probably early eighties music, my wife would say, but actually it's broaden that because I get used to all the things my daughter's play. So there are many things I enjoy doing. The biggest enemy, of course, is time to do them all. And that's why the gym tends to happen early in the morning. But one of the things I did do I lost. I mean, back in the day, I remember this happening. I used to be a lot belier than I am today. And I remember watching Barack Obama interviewed on the day after he won. It was very soon after he won, and somebody said, what are you going to do? And he said, I'm off to the gym. And I thought, if the president elective America has time to go to the gym, I think I can go. And so I started this thing where every day, every day I can go because no one has an excuse. And so every day I go to the gym no matter what's happening, or I go somewhere and do some exercise, and that's become very important to me. And if I don't, and I have to admit that are the odd days, although really it's very few. When I don't, I get really grumpy. Do you get cranky And it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. So I go back to the game you've been You've been known to fire off emails from a treadmill. Has that ever happened? It does happen. No, it does happen. Um, it does happen, not as often as it used to. In truth, the demise of the BlackBerry and it's keyboard meant an end to that. So I rarely do it nowadays because my typing is just too horrendous. But it has happened. You know. I like to use an elliptical machine because I have a knee injury from my rugby days, and ellipticals are gentle on the knees, and therefore I can sometimes put my iPad up there and read, and occasionally will will send an email from there having read something. But there is some truth to that. There was a lot more truth two or three years ago when black Berry keyboards meant you could type really quickly, and I used to do that. But as my younger daughter reminded me yesterday, also meant that occasion that I would dropped the black Berry into the elliptical and you would hear the crunching noise, and that was the end of another black berry. So it was not a particularly wise thing, and I therefore didn't do it too often. One thing that will change, of course now is travel, and the way of doing business is likely to change. Looking ahead, just personally, you've got instinct, what do you think the new normal will look like? Well, I think one of the quotes that has really got my attention about what the future could be like as what the great American philosopher Yogi Berra the baseball player said, And he said, the future ain't what it used to be. So as we look ahead, let's I think in our heads have a sense we're not going back to what it was. We're gonna something different. Part of what will be different, I think, is I to choose to travel. I don't subscribe to the view there will be no travel, but I do think there's going to be a lot of desire and pressure to travel less for business. I think personal travel may actually look different, I mean more like it used to. But I think for business we were already facing that pressure because of the environment and sustainability in a sense, not just out it starting a pressure from our people that we wanted to travel less, to preserve the environment, to recognize the damage that's done. That's there and that's not gone away. It's just taken a back seat. But that will come back. And at the same time, we now have technology that allows us to do far more remotely than we could possibly have dreamt of even a few years ago, and reliably. I think that coming together with the sustainability issue and attitudes shifting towards how we spend our time. Plus of course it also means you can bring people in from anywhere if you use remote technologies and have a different type of gathering. I do think that business travel is going to be curtailed um whether in absolute terms it goes down because that's member there are also probably more people who have access to travel over time than in the past. But I nevertheless think that light for light business travel is going to indeed be depressed. I don't think it's going to disappear, though. I think the desire for humans to be with each other will come back, but it will be more thoughtful. It will be where it really matters. And I think the old days of just jumping on an aluminium tube a metal tube to fly to London for a couple of our meetings. You know, take a nine hour flight for two hours. Is that that I think it's gone? But I do think people will still travel, just in a different way and less than they did before for business. Well, hopefully it'll mean you'll have more time at home. One hope. So, Kevin's thanks very much for your time, and I hope you and your family stay well. Thank you very much. I greatly enjoyed the conversation, and I hope you stay well, and I hope everyone listening stay as well. That was Kevin Sneider of Mackenzie speaking to me on Out of Office, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I'll be back next week. Meanwhile, do check out other episodes of Out of Office. You'll find them on Apple podcast, Spotify, the Bloomberg Terminal, and on Bloomberg dot com. We're also on Twitter and a handle is simply at Podcasts. I'd love to hear from you. You can tweet me at This is Maliica. This episode was produced by Ya Joe's son and Laura Coulson. Thank you for listening, stay well, stay healthy, and I'll connect with you next week. Two People Poppe two people people in pep