I think there are a lot of things that we American women get involved with. We volunteer for things, and we start businesses because we're using the space that we have left after we've taken care of everything else.

I think there are a lot of things that we American women get involved with. We volunteer for things, and we start businesses because we're using the space that we have left after we've taken care of everything else.

What do you think you'll regret about life when you're on your deathbed? My guest Laura Listermensch, has a front row seat to the dying process. She's an end of life doula, also known as a death doula, which means she spends time with people who are dying, providing support to them and their families, which can often mean just holding their hands. Her role is different than a hospice nurse, and it's similar but also not comparable to a birth doula in ways that I never imagined, having to do with money and time. Laura is also somewhat of a renaissance woman who's been a nonprofit executive, writer, pod castor travel agent, as well as mother and wife and all around curious retired person who's explored everything from sex after age fifty to what it's like watching your husband try to be a stand up comedian. I'm allow and this is other People's Pockets, the show where I straight up ask people how much they make and how their finances work, so that the questions we all have about money can be a little bit less of a mystery.

What do you think you'll regret about life when you're on your deathbed? My guest Laura Listermensch, has a front row seat to the dying process. She's an end of life doula, also known as a death doula, which means she spends time with people who are dying, providing support to them and their families, which can often mean just holding their hands. Her role is different than a hospice nurse, and it's similar but also not comparable to a birth doula in ways that I never imagined, having to do with money and time. Laura is also somewhat of a renaissance woman who's been a nonprofit executive, writer, pod castor travel agent, as well as mother and wife and all around curious retired person who's explored everything from sex after age fifty to what it's like watching your husband try to be a stand up comedian. I'm allow and this is other People's Pockets, the show where I straight up ask people how much they make and how their finances work, so that the questions we all have about money can be a little bit less of a mystery.

So Hi, Laura, Hi, nice to meet you.

So Hi, Laura, Hi, nice to meet you.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

It is an honor. I am a listener and fan.

It is an honor. I am a listener and fan.

Where am I actually reaching you?

Where am I actually reaching you?

By the way, we live in Washington, DC.

By the way, we live in Washington, DC.

And are you in your house? You have listen to these house plants there.

And are you in your house? You have listen to these house plants there.

Yes, I'm in my office this guest room, and I am looking out on a beautiful sunny day here in DC.

Yes, I'm in my office this guest room, and I am looking out on a beautiful sunny day here in DC.

I mean, I think people have heard of birth doulas, which I had a doula when I gave birth. And for people who don't know, I mean, the way I thought about it was, this is somebody that basically is working for me. Specifically, they're not working for the hospital, they're not working for my insurance. People might be familiar with the concept of a hospice nurse, how as being a death doula different than other similar roles.

I mean, I think people have heard of birth doulas, which I had a doula when I gave birth. And for people who don't know, I mean, the way I thought about it was, this is somebody that basically is working for me. Specifically, they're not working for the hospital, they're not working for my insurance. People might be familiar with the concept of a hospice nurse, how as being a death doula different than other similar roles.

These are the questions that we all need to be asking because it is not yet a professionalized thing where you, for example, that it's reimbursed. It is a private thing that the person who is dying, where their family hires you, and the list of things that end of life or death dyllas do is long. With death, you're hiring someone who's going to be your advocate, hopefully from the beginning of your terminal ill and not you know, a day before, because death is different than birth in that you cannot predict how present you will be and how well you will be able to communicate, what your values and your needs are and are.

These are the questions that we all need to be asking because it is not yet a professionalized thing where you, for example, that it's reimbursed. It is a private thing that the person who is dying, where their family hires you, and the list of things that end of life or death dyllas do is long. With death, you're hiring someone who's going to be your advocate, hopefully from the beginning of your terminal ill and not you know, a day before, because death is different than birth in that you cannot predict how present you will be and how well you will be able to communicate, what your values and your needs are and are.

You helping with getting people's paperwork in order, or dealing with their kids or what are all the things you're helping people with.

You helping with getting people's paperwork in order, or dealing with their kids or what are all the things you're helping people with.

So let's say you have a terminal illness. There's going to be a lot of paperwork that you're going to want to think about. You're going to want to make sure that you've organized your possessions. You're going to want to think about what are the things that are going to be important to you, Who are the people you're going to want around you, What legacy do you want to leave behind. So weirdly enough, we start with somebody and say, tell us about your life. Let's document your values, what you've learned from life. Let's write the letters to people that you're going to leave behind. Let me help you facilitate that. And then there's vigil which is, you know, right at the end of life where you're probably not fully conscious and you're probably not able to talk. So when they think about how important it is that somebody knows. Are you someone who would want to be touched? Are you someone who would want a certain kind of music? And what would it be? What kind of atmosphere do you want people chatting all over the place? What room would you rather be in, What do you want to happen right after you've passed, What rituals matter to you? And how do you want your body disposed of? I don't mean like trash that is an actual technical term disposal, but how do you want your body to be treated? And then afterwards, what's important to you in terms of what instructions do you want to give your loved ones about your legacy. People don't want to think about this stuff. People don't want to talk about it with their families. So with a hospice nurse, they're helping you with the medical and physical parts of what's going on. They also deal of course with your humanity and your needs and your desires, but they're not there way before.

So let's say you have a terminal illness. There's going to be a lot of paperwork that you're going to want to think about. You're going to want to make sure that you've organized your possessions. You're going to want to think about what are the things that are going to be important to you, Who are the people you're going to want around you, What legacy do you want to leave behind. So weirdly enough, we start with somebody and say, tell us about your life. Let's document your values, what you've learned from life. Let's write the letters to people that you're going to leave behind. Let me help you facilitate that. And then there's vigil which is, you know, right at the end of life where you're probably not fully conscious and you're probably not able to talk. So when they think about how important it is that somebody knows. Are you someone who would want to be touched? Are you someone who would want a certain kind of music? And what would it be? What kind of atmosphere do you want people chatting all over the place? What room would you rather be in, What do you want to happen right after you've passed, What rituals matter to you? And how do you want your body disposed of? I don't mean like trash that is an actual technical term disposal, but how do you want your body to be treated? And then afterwards, what's important to you in terms of what instructions do you want to give your loved ones about your legacy. People don't want to think about this stuff. People don't want to talk about it with their families. So with a hospice nurse, they're helping you with the medical and physical parts of what's going on. They also deal of course with your humanity and your needs and your desires, but they're not there way before.

They're more there towards the end end.

They're more there towards the end end.

Right, and they're mostly about your physical care. The doula is a non medical role and it's mostly about being your advocate.

Right, and they're mostly about your physical care. The doula is a non medical role and it's mostly about being your advocate.

You need a liaison.

You need a liaison.

You need a liaisonah, and you need to be able to say have some conversations, for example, that it would be hard on your children, Like your children don't want to talk about you dying. I get it, but you may want it.

You need a liaisonah, and you need to be able to say have some conversations, for example, that it would be hard on your children, Like your children don't want to talk about you dying. I get it, but you may want it.

You need to talk about it with someone. Yeah.

You need to talk about it with someone. Yeah.

Right. So I decided to get this training. And there are a lot of trainings out there, buyer, beware on what you choose. I chose Inelda because of their social justice and their international and holistic focus. I wanted some really practical knowledge, and so I took that training and then I took another training. I think it was seven hundred dollars in total for the first training. The second training was free because I volunteered for a hospice. Some of these trainings are quite expensive. That one was a month and a half and I think that was the base. There's another economic thing about taking that training. It means that you have time. M It means that you can take the time to do the training in the homework. There was extensive homework, and then you have to take the time to build a business. So the luxury of being able to do that. Let's just put it this way. When you see the zoom screen of people who are doing this, it is largely older white women. My appearance notwithstanding I'm a white appearing person, but my mom's black. So I do what a lot of people, a lot of minorities do, is I look at a zoom screen and I count ethnicities like there's two of them, there's five of those. Also, who's going to hire an end of lifetula or a death dela. It's probably going to be an upper middle class white woman. And so I think there's a self fulfilling thing happening there where this is for me, this is what I would do, and this is who I see myself as.

Right. So I decided to get this training. And there are a lot of trainings out there, buyer, beware on what you choose. I chose Inelda because of their social justice and their international and holistic focus. I wanted some really practical knowledge, and so I took that training and then I took another training. I think it was seven hundred dollars in total for the first training. The second training was free because I volunteered for a hospice. Some of these trainings are quite expensive. That one was a month and a half and I think that was the base. There's another economic thing about taking that training. It means that you have time. M It means that you can take the time to do the training in the homework. There was extensive homework, and then you have to take the time to build a business. So the luxury of being able to do that. Let's just put it this way. When you see the zoom screen of people who are doing this, it is largely older white women. My appearance notwithstanding I'm a white appearing person, but my mom's black. So I do what a lot of people, a lot of minorities do, is I look at a zoom screen and I count ethnicities like there's two of them, there's five of those. Also, who's going to hire an end of lifetula or a death dela. It's probably going to be an upper middle class white woman. And so I think there's a self fulfilling thing happening there where this is for me, this is what I would do, and this is who I see myself as.

So tell me about being a death dueler.

So tell me about being a death dueler.

How why I've always believed in the principle of you know, do what you're scared of, challenge yourself. So I said, I'm going to do a podcast on tex over fifty. I had to get permission from my children, because you do right.

How why I've always believed in the principle of you know, do what you're scared of, challenge yourself. So I said, I'm going to do a podcast on tex over fifty. I had to get permission from my children, because you do right.

And not from your husband but from your children.

And not from your husband but from your children.

Oh no, he's fine, and I'm a notorious prudent. The idea of talking about sex, I mean, trust me, everyone I know was like, this is not you are not I do not believe. But that's exactly what you need to do if you're somebody who's trying to really learn and explore. So the sex positive movement changed a normal, bodily and emotional thing into something that we could talk about and the people could be verbal about and fluent in. Well, I'm in a stage in light of my life where I'm seeing a lot of death. You know, you hit this age. Your friend's parents, sometimes your friends, sometimes their spouses, sometimes your own family members are dying. The level of death in our life has gone up. There's a lot of people my age who are interested in becoming more fluent about death. And I said, how do you do that? Let's go to the end degree here. I don't get frightened. I'm not freaked out by the medical stuff, and being a calm presence in either situation is an asset.

Oh no, he's fine, and I'm a notorious prudent. The idea of talking about sex, I mean, trust me, everyone I know was like, this is not you are not I do not believe. But that's exactly what you need to do if you're somebody who's trying to really learn and explore. So the sex positive movement changed a normal, bodily and emotional thing into something that we could talk about and the people could be verbal about and fluent in. Well, I'm in a stage in light of my life where I'm seeing a lot of death. You know, you hit this age. Your friend's parents, sometimes your friends, sometimes their spouses, sometimes your own family members are dying. The level of death in our life has gone up. There's a lot of people my age who are interested in becoming more fluent about death. And I said, how do you do that? Let's go to the end degree here. I don't get frightened. I'm not freaked out by the medical stuff, and being a calm presence in either situation is an asset.

How many people have you worked with who are dying?

How many people have you worked with who are dying?

All right? So I'm a weird dula as usual. So what most dulas would do is they would contract with someone for an hourly or for a end of lifespan contract that they would be paid for to do specific tasks. Maybe the person doesn't want the life review, maybe they want this. It's very menu, you know. You pick what you want and you hire someone to do that thing, and it's a relationship between the individual adula and the individual dying person or their family member. I don't do individual work. This is how I've chosen to show up for death. I volunteer at a hospice where people are often there alone with no friends and family at the end of life. I spend time with people who have who don't have friends and family. For the most part, sometimes I see family, but it's a word with ten beds. And often these are people who have just run out of places and people. And I just go into a room and I sit with someone and I just love them, just love them. I may not touch them or not to hold their hand or not. Yeah, And sometimes I just read or sometimes I just walk around and breathe. Some people may want to be alone, maybe that's how they got there. I just have to follow my instincts on the best way. But I feel that that that's my calling and I have this luxury because I don't need to make money that I can show up and do this. I choose to do this at a cemetery, which is delightful.

All right? So I'm a weird dula as usual. So what most dulas would do is they would contract with someone for an hourly or for a end of lifespan contract that they would be paid for to do specific tasks. Maybe the person doesn't want the life review, maybe they want this. It's very menu, you know. You pick what you want and you hire someone to do that thing, and it's a relationship between the individual adula and the individual dying person or their family member. I don't do individual work. This is how I've chosen to show up for death. I volunteer at a hospice where people are often there alone with no friends and family at the end of life. I spend time with people who have who don't have friends and family. For the most part, sometimes I see family, but it's a word with ten beds. And often these are people who have just run out of places and people. And I just go into a room and I sit with someone and I just love them, just love them. I may not touch them or not to hold their hand or not. Yeah, And sometimes I just read or sometimes I just walk around and breathe. Some people may want to be alone, maybe that's how they got there. I just have to follow my instincts on the best way. But I feel that that that's my calling and I have this luxury because I don't need to make money that I can show up and do this. I choose to do this at a cemetery, which is delightful.

Yes.

Yes.

And I do educational or experiential activities there to help people think about death, make plans, write their own obituary, to practice dying, to do experiential things to help them address their fear of death, which we all have, to help them decide how to have conversations with their loved ones. And also I always bring in a big stack of books. I'm like a librarian of how to plan certain things, how to organize your stuff, and so my dueling is in groups as opposed to as an individual.

And I do educational or experiential activities there to help people think about death, make plans, write their own obituary, to practice dying, to do experiential things to help them address their fear of death, which we all have, to help them decide how to have conversations with their loved ones. And also I always bring in a big stack of books. I'm like a librarian of how to plan certain things, how to organize your stuff, and so my dueling is in groups as opposed to as an individual.

And do you make any money doing it?

And do you make any money doing it?

I do not. I am a full volunteer and that's good.

I do not. I am a full volunteer and that's good.

Is there any money in death Doula?

Is there any money in death Doula?

I do not know that I have met an end of life or death doullah who makes their living doing it? Why I'm really worried about this as an older person who has seen women start businesses that don't necessarily have a outcome that will feed them financial So do.

I do not know that I have met an end of life or death doullah who makes their living doing it? Why I'm really worried about this as an older person who has seen women start businesses that don't necessarily have a outcome that will feed them financial So do.

You think some people are going into this thinking that they can make money and then realizing that the business model isn't there.

You think some people are going into this thinking that they can make money and then realizing that the business model isn't there.

I have concerns, Yeah, tell me, I have concerns. I think there are a lot of things that we American women get involved with, and a lot of it we're trying to build, you know, a side thing off of what we do. We do it out of passion. We volunteer for things and we start businesses because we're using the space that we have left after we've taken care of everything else. In the volunteerism entrepreneurial space that we women get into, I think it's really important that we be honest with each other that the finances of it may not work out, and when you pay money to get trained for something without having a realistic view.

I have concerns, Yeah, tell me, I have concerns. I think there are a lot of things that we American women get involved with, and a lot of it we're trying to build, you know, a side thing off of what we do. We do it out of passion. We volunteer for things and we start businesses because we're using the space that we have left after we've taken care of everything else. In the volunteerism entrepreneurial space that we women get into, I think it's really important that we be honest with each other that the finances of it may not work out, and when you pay money to get trained for something without having a realistic view.

What is the return on investment?

What is the return on investment?

But in this one in particular, this is something people come to because they have a passion for it. And people who can sit with someone who's dying are different than other people. I have seen this. People sit with people that are dying and they're deeply uncomfortable and they're or it's all about them, you know, they're just doing something at people. So I think it's a really import to have sat with some dead people or dying people before one goes into this and make sure that it's for you, and if it is for you, to make sure that you've worked out the finances of it instead of just banking on the idea that it's going to work. You can't predict when you will be able to take another client.

But in this one in particular, this is something people come to because they have a passion for it. And people who can sit with someone who's dying are different than other people. I have seen this. People sit with people that are dying and they're deeply uncomfortable and they're or it's all about them, you know, they're just doing something at people. So I think it's a really import to have sat with some dead people or dying people before one goes into this and make sure that it's for you, and if it is for you, to make sure that you've worked out the finances of it instead of just banking on the idea that it's going to work. You can't predict when you will be able to take another client.

It could take years. It could yeah, I mean.

It could take years. It could yeah, I mean.

It could take years. And how much time are you going to spend finding people? And what is the pipeline? There is not a good pipeline for matching death dula's with dying people. It's not reimbursed, and as best as I can see when I talk to people, people charge about ninety five dollars an hour as an end of life dula not always, and I'm sure it really really depends, but those are willing to be honest about what they're charging. It's somewhat somewhat around one hundred US. So most people I know who are end of life dula's are doing other things and it may not be where a lot of the finances are coming in.

It could take years. And how much time are you going to spend finding people? And what is the pipeline? There is not a good pipeline for matching death dula's with dying people. It's not reimbursed, and as best as I can see when I talk to people, people charge about ninety five dollars an hour as an end of life dula not always, and I'm sure it really really depends, but those are willing to be honest about what they're charging. It's somewhat somewhat around one hundred US. So most people I know who are end of life dula's are doing other things and it may not be where a lot of the finances are coming in.

Right for people who are practicing. And then also people who are actually dying, what reflections do they have if they share any on their kind of deathbed realizations about finances if any.

Right for people who are practicing. And then also people who are actually dying, what reflections do they have if they share any on their kind of deathbed realizations about finances if any.

Here is the shocking truth. People do not have a plan. A lot of people don't have a will. They have not written down their wishes for what will happen to their possessions. They have not left a list of where their bank accounts are or how to access them. Even sometimes in hospice, people have not turned over responsibility for their own medical and financial care. I have seen so many disastrous sad outcomes to this avoidance about discussing this, because while people say, well it'll work out, or I don't have much money, it doesn't matter the amount of pain and confusion it leaves behind. When you haven't left good records and you haven't stated your preferences. The mischief that some relative from goodness knows where comes back. I once saw someone who was within weeks of dying be with some distant relatives who forced her to sign papers to turn over stuff to a church. She was not in a good state to be able to prevent that. It was like she was prey. Even if her money doesn't matter to her after she dies. The fact that she was exposed to people that were using her in her late life. That one bugged me a lot. Mostly I see confusion after death. I see people not able to find the passwords, not.

Here is the shocking truth. People do not have a plan. A lot of people don't have a will. They have not written down their wishes for what will happen to their possessions. They have not left a list of where their bank accounts are or how to access them. Even sometimes in hospice, people have not turned over responsibility for their own medical and financial care. I have seen so many disastrous sad outcomes to this avoidance about discussing this, because while people say, well it'll work out, or I don't have much money, it doesn't matter the amount of pain and confusion it leaves behind. When you haven't left good records and you haven't stated your preferences. The mischief that some relative from goodness knows where comes back. I once saw someone who was within weeks of dying be with some distant relatives who forced her to sign papers to turn over stuff to a church. She was not in a good state to be able to prevent that. It was like she was prey. Even if her money doesn't matter to her after she dies. The fact that she was exposed to people that were using her in her late life. That one bugged me a lot. Mostly I see confusion after death. I see people not able to find the passwords, not.

To meaning not able to find the passwords of the deceased person that you would need to get into their bank account, or not to take advantage of them, but just to deal with their affairs.

To meaning not able to find the passwords of the deceased person that you would need to get into their bank account, or not to take advantage of them, but just to deal with their affairs.

All of it. There's a lot. And at some point, if we can do that when we're well and just sit down and you know, spend a day organizing ourselves, writing things down, and then keep updating it.

All of it. There's a lot. And at some point, if we can do that when we're well and just sit down and you know, spend a day organizing ourselves, writing things down, and then keep updating it.

It's a kindness, right, It's a way of showing love to your kids or whoever is going to be there. One thing that I thought was interesting looking at your LinkedIn profile, You've had a very varied career. I mean, what's on there is executive level, travel agent, editor, writer, director of a nonprofit for parents of people with eating disorders, being a death doula. Tell me about your journey. How did you get from travel agent to death doula.

It's a kindness, right, It's a way of showing love to your kids or whoever is going to be there. One thing that I thought was interesting looking at your LinkedIn profile, You've had a very varied career. I mean, what's on there is executive level, travel agent, editor, writer, director of a nonprofit for parents of people with eating disorders, being a death doula. Tell me about your journey. How did you get from travel agent to death doula.

So it's okay, one get old, because my how old are you? I'm sixty one. If you're lucky, you will cycle through all sorts of things in your life. Now. I have had a friend look at similar things about me and say that I was Flighty, and that's true. I think there is a certain level of you know, I've tried some things and then I went on to do other things because I had the luxury of being able to do that. And we can get into the economics of that.

So it's okay, one get old, because my how old are you? I'm sixty one. If you're lucky, you will cycle through all sorts of things in your life. Now. I have had a friend look at similar things about me and say that I was Flighty, and that's true. I think there is a certain level of you know, I've tried some things and then I went on to do other things because I had the luxury of being able to do that. And we can get into the economics of that.

Mm hmm, wait, what are the economics of that?

Mm hmm, wait, what are the economics of that?

The economics of being a woman in the world, I think is often sort of an entrepreneurial creativity in that we find things to do in the margins of caregiving and our jobs. And again, I'm old, so there have been a lot of phases. What you're seeing is that is that I, you know, kept updating my LinkedIn. I was already I was already a mom when I met my husband, and I honestly never thought I would be someone who was taking care of it all. But when you're a single mom used to kind of start that way, right, You're I'm in charge of making the money, I'm in charge of keeping the money. I'm in charge of making it all work. So I became a travel agent because I had been an ASL teacher overseas and I came back and it was one of the first jobs I could get in New York City, where I lived, and I just took a job, and I remember I think I got twelve five It was twelve five hundred dollars for my first real job, and yeah, I felt like it was the most fantastic thing I You know, I grew up in a small town and I was living in New York City, which was where Amherst, Massachusetts. I came back got the first job I could get. It happened to be in a travel agency. But then I rolled with that and I became a pretty success full corporate travel agent. You asked, you know, how do you get go from a travel agent to act? You do what you're good at or what someone will pay you for, and you kind of bridge it to the next thing. And the next bridge was being a travel agent meant that I could go back to my hometown and Amherst, and I could move up in status at a smaller place. So I became a manager of the campus travel agency at the university that I went to, at UMass. From there I met my husband Mark, and we moved back down here to Virginia where he comes from. I know, on paper, I became a housewife at some point, but neither of us really look at it that way. I have been able to creatively entrepreneur my way through a lot of really impactful things in the world because he was able to bring in, you know, buckets of cash when he was working. Part of that agreement was that he would be able to retire early, which he did.

The economics of being a woman in the world, I think is often sort of an entrepreneurial creativity in that we find things to do in the margins of caregiving and our jobs. And again, I'm old, so there have been a lot of phases. What you're seeing is that is that I, you know, kept updating my LinkedIn. I was already I was already a mom when I met my husband, and I honestly never thought I would be someone who was taking care of it all. But when you're a single mom used to kind of start that way, right, You're I'm in charge of making the money, I'm in charge of keeping the money. I'm in charge of making it all work. So I became a travel agent because I had been an ASL teacher overseas and I came back and it was one of the first jobs I could get in New York City, where I lived, and I just took a job, and I remember I think I got twelve five It was twelve five hundred dollars for my first real job, and yeah, I felt like it was the most fantastic thing I You know, I grew up in a small town and I was living in New York City, which was where Amherst, Massachusetts. I came back got the first job I could get. It happened to be in a travel agency. But then I rolled with that and I became a pretty success full corporate travel agent. You asked, you know, how do you get go from a travel agent to act? You do what you're good at or what someone will pay you for, and you kind of bridge it to the next thing. And the next bridge was being a travel agent meant that I could go back to my hometown and Amherst, and I could move up in status at a smaller place. So I became a manager of the campus travel agency at the university that I went to, at UMass. From there I met my husband Mark, and we moved back down here to Virginia where he comes from. I know, on paper, I became a housewife at some point, but neither of us really look at it that way. I have been able to creatively entrepreneur my way through a lot of really impactful things in the world because he was able to bring in, you know, buckets of cash when he was working. Part of that agreement was that he would be able to retire early, which he did.

What does that look like in numerical terms, and what was he doing for work? He's in sales, so okay, sales of what kind of commissioned sales of so many things. If you think my resume looks a little He sold shoes, he sold welding equipment, he sold really early internet and tech sales software. And in the end, that stuff, that modern stuff is, you know, that's high money stuff.

What does that look like in numerical terms, and what was he doing for work? He's in sales, so okay, sales of what kind of commissioned sales of so many things. If you think my resume looks a little He sold shoes, he sold welding equipment, he sold really early internet and tech sales software. And in the end, that stuff, that modern stuff is, you know, that's high money stuff.

And he was very, very successful at what he does. And then at one point he said, you know what, I'm going to tell you something, and it's going to be really scary and it's probably going to change our whole relationship, but I have to tell you the secret that.

And he was very, very successful at what he does. And then at one point he said, you know what, I'm going to tell you something, and it's going to be really scary and it's probably going to change our whole relationship, but I have to tell you the secret that.

I have got.

I have got.

And what he said is that he really just wants to sell his truck and become a stand up comedian.

And what he said is that he really just wants to sell his truck and become a stand up comedian.

How old ish was he when he said that?

How old ish was he when he said that?

In his fifty somewhere okay.

In his fifty somewhere okay.

And how much money ballpark. Was he making.

And how much money ballpark. Was he making.

Oh, that really went up and down. I mean he made hundreds of thousands and sometimes and much less in other times.

Oh, that really went up and down. I mean he made hundreds of thousands and sometimes and much less in other times.

Two hundred thousand or three hundred thousand.

Two hundred thousand or three hundred thousand.

Upwards of two sometimes. Okay, there were some lean years. I mean we lived well below our means.

Upwards of two sometimes. Okay, there were some lean years. I mean we lived well below our means.

Where were you living.

Where were you living.

One of the techniques we used for that actually was to move out into the country.

One of the techniques we used for that actually was to move out into the country.

Yeah, I was wondering.

Yeah, I was wondering.

Yeah, we lived. We lived in Alexander, which is very close to DC, And at one point it really just felt like we were just trying to keep up with the Joneses all the time. There was so much pressure, consumer pressure, pressure to dress a certain way, to make our house a certain way. And I remember us saying, you know, we would like to live our lives authentically and enjoy our lives and enjoy our family without all that. And we moved away in the country, and that meant that we could really be together lead the life we wanted to lead as a family without feeling as if we were being scrutinized for every decision. And it's funny because we've moved back into the city now and I'm older now, so I'm not influenced by it, but there is this pressure to appear a certain way that I didn't feel as much there. It's been an interesting it's been interesting to revisit the pressure that we put on each other in consumer ways.

Yeah, we lived. We lived in Alexander, which is very close to DC, And at one point it really just felt like we were just trying to keep up with the Joneses all the time. There was so much pressure, consumer pressure, pressure to dress a certain way, to make our house a certain way. And I remember us saying, you know, we would like to live our lives authentically and enjoy our lives and enjoy our family without all that. And we moved away in the country, and that meant that we could really be together lead the life we wanted to lead as a family without feeling as if we were being scrutinized for every decision. And it's funny because we've moved back into the city now and I'm older now, so I'm not influenced by it, but there is this pressure to appear a certain way that I didn't feel as much there. It's been an interesting it's been interesting to revisit the pressure that we put on each other in consumer ways.

So if you're able to survive off of forty or fifty K in a year, but you have a year where he makes I don't know, two hundred and fifty K and you're saving all that, how much money did you end up with when retirement came around for you too?

So if you're able to survive off of forty or fifty K in a year, but you have a year where he makes I don't know, two hundred and fifty K and you're saving all that, how much money did you end up with when retirement came around for you too?

As best as we can piece it back together, what happened is we reached a point where we could just retire. We could just say we don't need to earn any more money. And when we reached that point, anything we did beyond that was a choice, you know, if it wanted to work. We didn't want to work. Around that time, I started getting a full time income, so we knew what our level of living was going to be. We decided what it was going to be. We're going to continue living that way, and then we unfortunately inherited some money that changed the level at which we live. It didn't change the like, you know, our decisions about it, but but I would rather have my mother and father in law alive obviously, but they bumped it up so that we could change decisions about you know where we live or you know the levels we live?

As best as we can piece it back together, what happened is we reached a point where we could just retire. We could just say we don't need to earn any more money. And when we reached that point, anything we did beyond that was a choice, you know, if it wanted to work. We didn't want to work. Around that time, I started getting a full time income, so we knew what our level of living was going to be. We decided what it was going to be. We're going to continue living that way, and then we unfortunately inherited some money that changed the level at which we live. It didn't change the like, you know, our decisions about it, but but I would rather have my mother and father in law alive obviously, but they bumped it up so that we could change decisions about you know where we live or you know the levels we live?

How much did you inherit.

How much did you inherit.

That I do not feel I can say. Here's what I can say is we looked it up recently and we are in the top five percent and in the US. Yeah. I have never dreamed. Neither of us ever dreamed that that would be true. And I think we both find it kind of humbling.

That I do not feel I can say. Here's what I can say is we looked it up recently and we are in the top five percent and in the US. Yeah. I have never dreamed. Neither of us ever dreamed that that would be true. And I think we both find it kind of humbling.

Nice. Do you own your house in DC? We do.

Nice. Do you own your house in DC? We do.

We have a mortgage, but we we Okay, it was a decision we could make. We could have bought it out right. We decided not to buy it out right.

We have a mortgage, but we we Okay, it was a decision we could make. We could have bought it out right. We decided not to buy it out right.

Oh how much was it?

Oh how much was it?

It's public record it's about a million.

It's public record it's about a million.

What do you think your money situation will be at your end of life.

What do you think your money situation will be at your end of life.

We've designed it so it will be pretty much the same as when we were retired. We've designed things so that we're kind of a steady state. We continue to live below our means, so I don't expect it to change too much.

We've designed it so it will be pretty much the same as when we were retired. We've designed things so that we're kind of a steady state. We continue to live below our means, so I don't expect it to change too much.

What's the best joke or sickest burn your husband has made about you while in his stand up comedy?

What's the best joke or sickest burn your husband has made about you while in his stand up comedy?

Oh my god, okay. They all involve bodily functions, our sex, which tells you something about comedy. You know what it is. I ask him not to lie. Sometimes he'll make something up to make something funnier. But because I'm a writer, I also have that experience. My family has had to say, oh, I know, take that out. So it's fair. It's all fair in art and comedy.

Oh my god, okay. They all involve bodily functions, our sex, which tells you something about comedy. You know what it is. I ask him not to lie. Sometimes he'll make something up to make something funnier. But because I'm a writer, I also have that experience. My family has had to say, oh, I know, take that out. So it's fair. It's all fair in art and comedy.

As you look back, knowing what you know about money and class, now what do you think you were?

As you look back, knowing what you know about money and class, now what do you think you were?

I guess it's middle class. Now I would say that we are well off. I mean, it just seems obvious to me.

I guess it's middle class. Now I would say that we are well off. I mean, it just seems obvious to me.

What class is that.

What class is that.

Then it would be wealthy or.

Then it would be wealthy or.

Upper class or I don't know, I.

Upper class or I don't know, I.

Guess it's upper class. Yeah.

Guess it's upper class. Yeah.

Net worth wise, are you a multi millionaire?

Net worth wise, are you a multi millionaire?

What we settled on is we're in the top five percent, okay, and we are shocked. We are shocked that this is true. Neither of us ever expected to have any ex You.

What we settled on is we're in the top five percent, okay, and we are shocked. We are shocked that this is true. Neither of us ever expected to have any ex You.

Don't identify as like I'm a five percenter.

Don't identify as like I'm a five percenter.

Oh god, now, yeah. It feels like a combination of good planning and of luck and opportunities that we've been given the biggest thing that I've been able to do with our financial situation is to be able to donate, to change the world in small ways, to launch our children, and to feel like responsible adults. We feel like responsible adults. But we didn't expect to be this comfortable.

Oh god, now, yeah. It feels like a combination of good planning and of luck and opportunities that we've been given the biggest thing that I've been able to do with our financial situation is to be able to donate, to change the world in small ways, to launch our children, and to feel like responsible adults. We feel like responsible adults. But we didn't expect to be this comfortable.

So how much do you spend a month? Say, are you still spending as if you guys made fifty thousand dollars a year? Like, can you give me any kind of We keep it in this range.

So how much do you spend a month? Say, are you still spending as if you guys made fifty thousand dollars a year? Like, can you give me any kind of We keep it in this range.

I would guess that we spent as if we're we're in the seventies.

I would guess that we spent as if we're we're in the seventies.

Making seventy thousand dollars a year jointly.

Making seventy thousand dollars a year jointly.

Yeah, and in a city obviously harder than in the country. But most of our money goes to experiences and people in our life.

Yeah, and in a city obviously harder than in the country. But most of our money goes to experiences and people in our life.

And do you other than your mortgage, do you have debt?

And do you other than your mortgage, do you have debt?

No, we don't believe in it.

No, we don't believe in it.

You don't believe in debt?

You don't believe in debt?

Yeah, well, I mean if we had to to eat, we would believe in it. Yeah, But we have the luxury of and that's a decision we made not to have any debt. We bought our we bought our last car recently, and we bought it in cash.

Yeah, well, I mean if we had to to eat, we would believe in it. Yeah, But we have the luxury of and that's a decision we made not to have any debt. We bought our we bought our last car recently, and we bought it in cash.

How much was that? It's a it's a minute, it was a pink Tessy.

How much was that? It's a it's a minute, it was a pink Tessy.

It's a Mini Cooper and it's and it's the only new car I've ever bought, Like Ballpark, I actually do know this number, and I'm it's like and I'm all into the transparency thing, but.

It's a Mini Cooper and it's and it's the only new car I've ever bought, Like Ballpark, I actually do know this number, and I'm it's like and I'm all into the transparency thing, but.

I mean like a really wide range, like a crazy range.

I mean like a really wide range, like a crazy range.

I think they run somewhere in the forties.

I think they run somewhere in the forties.

Okay, why do you have the reaction you do?

Okay, why do you have the reaction you do?

I can tell you because when I was growing up, the value around money was that, you know, you use a car until it dies, which we do. We used our cars until they die, and then you get a used car. I've never bought a new car, right, but it's our last car and we wanted one with the newest tech and we said, you know, well for once, we're going to do the thing. We're going from two cars to one. But listen to me, I'm embarrassed by it. I grew up thinking that talking about your assets was distasteful and gross.

I can tell you because when I was growing up, the value around money was that, you know, you use a car until it dies, which we do. We used our cars until they die, and then you get a used car. I've never bought a new car, right, but it's our last car and we wanted one with the newest tech and we said, you know, well for once, we're going to do the thing. We're going from two cars to one. But listen to me, I'm embarrassed by it. I grew up thinking that talking about your assets was distasteful and gross.

Really, whose personal finances are you dying to know the truth about?

Really, whose personal finances are you dying to know the truth about?

Wow? Okay, it's going to be a strange answer. But my parents, so we don't. We don't talk about money.

Wow? Okay, it's going to be a strange answer. But my parents, so we don't. We don't talk about money.

But have you done the deaf workshop with them?

But have you done the deaf workshop with them?

I am the cobbler whose kids have no shoes. Yeah, we don't talk about it, and I talk to strangers all the time about their finances. But that's like none of your business, child.

I am the cobbler whose kids have no shoes. Yeah, we don't talk about it, and I talk to strangers all the time about their finances. But that's like none of your business, child.

Yeah, totally. It's way easier to tell a stranger who has no stakes everything about your life. Are you just curious? Are you? Are you worried or I'm not.

Yeah, totally. It's way easier to tell a stranger who has no stakes everything about your life. Are you just curious? Are you? Are you worried or I'm not.

I think my parents are like us where we feel like our parents have taken care of are taken care of themselves. They're they're marvelous. If they needed anything, they could call on us at any time. Our kids could call us, And I said anytime if they need something. But there is some sort of value of independence and autonomy that has to do with privacy.

I think my parents are like us where we feel like our parents have taken care of are taken care of themselves. They're they're marvelous. If they needed anything, they could call on us at any time. Our kids could call us, And I said anytime if they need something. But there is some sort of value of independence and autonomy that has to do with privacy.

Here, what does enough look like to you?

Here, what does enough look like to you?

I can very clearly define enough. For me, it's to not be a burden to our kids who are safely launched. We want our kids to feel that they're doing what they are doing and they're happy in their lives and that they don't have to worry about us financially. That is enough for me.

I can very clearly define enough. For me, it's to not be a burden to our kids who are safely launched. We want our kids to feel that they're doing what they are doing and they're happy in their lives and that they don't have to worry about us financially. That is enough for me.

This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for talking with me.

This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for talking with me.

Thank you. I have been so looking forward to this. I love what you're doing.

Thank you. I have been so looking forward to this. I love what you're doing.

Thank you, thanks for listening to Other People's Pockets and a favor. If you like the show, please tell a friend and leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Other People's Pockets is written and hosted by me Maya Lao. It's produced by me along with Joy Sandford and Dan Galucci. Production help from Angela vang Our. Executive producers are me along with Jane Marie and Dan Galucci. A special thanks to writing your own obituary before you die. Other People's Pockets is a co production of Pushkin Industries a Little Everywhere. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus, offering bonus content and ad free listening across our network for four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Look for the Pushkin Plus channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm. You can sign up for Pushkin newsletters at Pushkin dot fm. Find me on Twitter at Maya Lao, or on Instagram and TikTok at. It'smaya Money and one more thing we would love to hear from you. If you make fifty thousand dollars a year or less, leave us a voicemail and tell us about your experience at three two three five four zero four two five five. That's three two three five four zero four two five five, Or record a voice memo and send it to other people's pockets at gmail dot com

Thank you, thanks for listening to Other People's Pockets and a favor. If you like the show, please tell a friend and leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Other People's Pockets is written and hosted by me Maya Lao. It's produced by me along with Joy Sandford and Dan Galucci. Production help from Angela vang Our. Executive producers are me along with Jane Marie and Dan Galucci. A special thanks to writing your own obituary before you die. Other People's Pockets is a co production of Pushkin Industries a Little Everywhere. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus, offering bonus content and ad free listening across our network for four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Look for the Pushkin Plus channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm. You can sign up for Pushkin newsletters at Pushkin dot fm. Find me on Twitter at Maya Lao, or on Instagram and TikTok at. It'smaya Money and one more thing we would love to hear from you. If you make fifty thousand dollars a year or less, leave us a voicemail and tell us about your experience at three two three five four zero four two five five. That's three two three five four zero four two five five, Or record a voice memo and send it to other people's pockets at gmail dot com