I think we're prepared to line up for a very expensive pair of socks from a boutique with a label on them and pay four hundred dollars for those socks. That to me is expensive, but in a big group of people handmaking something daily from amazing ingredients, if it's a good experience as a process.

I think we're prepared to line up for a very expensive pair of socks from a boutique with a label on them and pay four hundred dollars for those socks. That to me is expensive, but in a big group of people handmaking something daily from amazing ingredients, if it's a good experience as a process.

Wait, who do you know is spending four hundred dollars on socks?

Wait, who do you know is spending four hundred dollars on socks?

Ah A lot a lot of people.

Ah A lot a lot of people.

With my guest, Ben Shuri, is a chef who owns and operates one of the top restaurants in the world, Attica, in Melbourne, Australia. Attica is not a place to find foie gras. Instead, it's all about using local ingredients from Ben's rural childhood in New Zealand and food's indigenous to Australia. I wanted to talk to Ben because there's been such a reckoning over the business model of quote unquote find dining restaurants during the pandemic, and I was a little surprised to hear that despite having a top to your restaurant where the meals cost two hundred and fifty US dollars per person, Ben is not making as much money as you might think I might allow, and this is other people's pockets, the show where I ask people how much they make and how their finances work. So the questions we all have about money can be a little bit less of a mystery. Hello Ben, thank you so much for joining me today.

With my guest, Ben Shuri, is a chef who owns and operates one of the top restaurants in the world, Attica, in Melbourne, Australia. Attica is not a place to find foie gras. Instead, it's all about using local ingredients from Ben's rural childhood in New Zealand and food's indigenous to Australia. I wanted to talk to Ben because there's been such a reckoning over the business model of quote unquote find dining restaurants during the pandemic, and I was a little surprised to hear that despite having a top to your restaurant where the meals cost two hundred and fifty US dollars per person, Ben is not making as much money as you might think I might allow, and this is other people's pockets, the show where I ask people how much they make and how their finances work. So the questions we all have about money can be a little bit less of a mystery. Hello Ben, thank you so much for joining me today.

Good morning Maya. Thanks for having me.

Good morning Maya. Thanks for having me.

Can you paint a picture of the sites the sounds of smells and tastes, like, what's the vibe of Attica?

Can you paint a picture of the sites the sounds of smells and tastes, like, what's the vibe of Attica?

Sure so.

Sure so.

Atticure is in a small community called Rippin Lee. It's a suburb twenty minutes from the city and it is pretty unassuming. This the suburb. It's not really it's not a big sign or anything. But the door is quite unusual. It's wooden and it has a bronze sculptured handle of the off a piece of bark.

Atticure is in a small community called Rippin Lee. It's a suburb twenty minutes from the city and it is pretty unassuming. This the suburb. It's not really it's not a big sign or anything. But the door is quite unusual. It's wooden and it has a bronze sculptured handle of the off a piece of bark.

It's really cool. It's made by local artist.

It's really cool. It's made by local artist.

So you touch points are really important, signify that you have arrived somewhere different. So you come in and the dining room is I WoT want to say it's modest, but it's not a blank place. It's beautiful inside. It's immaculate. There's art all over the walls. You sit, it's very comfortable. The chairs are especially made for the restaurant. They are designed from nineteen sixties by Grant Featherstone that've been engineered to be able to sit on very comfortably for three hours. The length of the menu, this music I'm always working on the Attica playlist. There's very little adornment on the table. There's two handmade water glasses which are very brightly colored and very unusual. And there's a basket made by the Jump Desert Weavers, an aboriginal collective of artists, and inside it are these little balls that are quanda seeds, which is the seed of a native fruit, kwandong, and it's delicious fruit.

So you touch points are really important, signify that you have arrived somewhere different. So you come in and the dining room is I WoT want to say it's modest, but it's not a blank place. It's beautiful inside. It's immaculate. There's art all over the walls. You sit, it's very comfortable. The chairs are especially made for the restaurant. They are designed from nineteen sixties by Grant Featherstone that've been engineered to be able to sit on very comfortably for three hours. The length of the menu, this music I'm always working on the Attica playlist. There's very little adornment on the table. There's two handmade water glasses which are very brightly colored and very unusual. And there's a basket made by the Jump Desert Weavers, an aboriginal collective of artists, and inside it are these little balls that are quanda seeds, which is the seed of a native fruit, kwandong, and it's delicious fruit.

You're going to have that immediately.

You're going to have that immediately.

We are sort of doing everything that we can to try to disarm the customer who's sometimes a bit nervous about coming to a really famous restaurant. And we, of course don't see ourselves like that. I don't like that formality of traditional find dining restaurants at all. I just don't see that how that gets to the core of things, which is making people happy and getting people relaxed. And we want people to have an exceptional time. We want to make people happy. We can't make them happy we can give them some cues. But that's a very strong desire of almost every hospitality worker that I've ever ever work with, especially waiters. It's about like trying to be super kind to people. It's about make them feel comfortable whilst challenging them, you know, and their perceptions about what Australian food is. There's an educational component if you're into that. If you're not, it's no biggie. Yeah, it's just like fun, energetic and passionate.

We are sort of doing everything that we can to try to disarm the customer who's sometimes a bit nervous about coming to a really famous restaurant. And we, of course don't see ourselves like that. I don't like that formality of traditional find dining restaurants at all. I just don't see that how that gets to the core of things, which is making people happy and getting people relaxed. And we want people to have an exceptional time. We want to make people happy. We can't make them happy we can give them some cues. But that's a very strong desire of almost every hospitality worker that I've ever ever work with, especially waiters. It's about like trying to be super kind to people. It's about make them feel comfortable whilst challenging them, you know, and their perceptions about what Australian food is. There's an educational component if you're into that. If you're not, it's no biggie. Yeah, it's just like fun, energetic and passionate.

How did you come to own Attica?

How did you come to own Attica?

So? I came to own Attica in twenty fifteen after working for the former owner for a decade. So I was an employee here, the head chef, and then effectively he wanted to sell it, and I wanted to buy it, and I purchased it. Then it took absolutely everything I had, every cent that I had, and it took an additional sixty thousand dollars that I borrowed from my parents, who didn't have much money. So it's a big risk for them to loan me that money. I effectively bet my house on my ability to turn this place around. I had a modest home and home loan, but I had some equity in that house. So it was an amazing moment because hospitality workers, you know, mostly our lives are in the service of others, and those people that own restaurants are often business people rather than hospitality works. Now, there are lots of examples of small businesses being owned by owner operators, but at the more ambitious end of things, it's not really the case.

So? I came to own Attica in twenty fifteen after working for the former owner for a decade. So I was an employee here, the head chef, and then effectively he wanted to sell it, and I wanted to buy it, and I purchased it. Then it took absolutely everything I had, every cent that I had, and it took an additional sixty thousand dollars that I borrowed from my parents, who didn't have much money. So it's a big risk for them to loan me that money. I effectively bet my house on my ability to turn this place around. I had a modest home and home loan, but I had some equity in that house. So it was an amazing moment because hospitality workers, you know, mostly our lives are in the service of others, and those people that own restaurants are often business people rather than hospitality works. Now, there are lots of examples of small businesses being owned by owner operators, but at the more ambitious end of things, it's not really the case.

So it was a really amazing moment.

So it was a really amazing moment.

It was kind of unexpected, and I was completely terrified of it. Like I had very little business acumen, I had fairly average management skills. You know, you're not taught any of these things as a chef. So I set to work trying to change what I did. Change kind of a hand, and we are changing everything. Really that in my early part of my career, I.

It was kind of unexpected, and I was completely terrified of it. Like I had very little business acumen, I had fairly average management skills. You know, you're not taught any of these things as a chef. So I set to work trying to change what I did. Change kind of a hand, and we are changing everything. Really that in my early part of my career, I.

Wasn't working in any great places.

Wasn't working in any great places.

Upon reflection, in my later years, I've been able to go while it was such a valuable five or six years because you didn't have anybody showing you how to do something, so you just made it up as you went, and it was probably technically wrong, but the learning from having that freedom was immense, which ultimately led to me being able to develop my own style that didn't really seem like anybody else's.

Upon reflection, in my later years, I've been able to go while it was such a valuable five or six years because you didn't have anybody showing you how to do something, so you just made it up as you went, and it was probably technically wrong, but the learning from having that freedom was immense, which ultimately led to me being able to develop my own style that didn't really seem like anybody else's.

How much money do you make?

How much money do you make?

Well, that's a that's how you want a quick answer, that's a that's an anxiety inducing question. And it's not a quick answer for that question. I mean there is simply my income varies, and I'm going to say that it's between one hundred and two hundred thousand, and and I can explain why there's such variations.

Well, that's a that's how you want a quick answer, that's a that's an anxiety inducing question. And it's not a quick answer for that question. I mean there is simply my income varies, and I'm going to say that it's between one hundred and two hundred thousand, and and I can explain why there's such variations.

Just a note. Ben is speaking in terms of Australian dollars, so in US dollars that would be around sixty seven thousand to one hundred and thirty four thousand dollars, and about fifty percent of his income is from his restaurant, so the rest is from a social media promotions, which you'll hear more about leader. Yeah, tell me about what the caveats are.

Just a note. Ben is speaking in terms of Australian dollars, so in US dollars that would be around sixty seven thousand to one hundred and thirty four thousand dollars, and about fifty percent of his income is from his restaurant, so the rest is from a social media promotions, which you'll hear more about leader. Yeah, tell me about what the caveats are.

So the caveats are for me personally, that I've come from a really humble upbringing in New Zealand and because of the culture of tap poppy syndrome in New Zealand and in Australia, talking about money and how much you make is something that you never do.

So the caveats are for me personally, that I've come from a really humble upbringing in New Zealand and because of the culture of tap poppy syndrome in New Zealand and in Australia, talking about money and how much you make is something that you never do.

On top of.

On top of.

That, in the nineteen eighties, I was a skateboarder and somebody who listened to punk music, and there's this there's this kind of I guess this kind of sell out.

That, in the nineteen eighties, I was a skateboarder and somebody who listened to punk music, and there's this there's this kind of I guess this kind of sell out.

Making money is kind of you. You know, if you make money, you're a sellout.

Making money is kind of you. You know, if you make money, you're a sellout.

And there's this sort of mentality around that that I've carried forward as an adult, and that's actually been something that's really hard to overcome because kind of talking about not being able to accept your own success and potentially the financial gains that come with that.

And there's this sort of mentality around that that I've carried forward as an adult, and that's actually been something that's really hard to overcome because kind of talking about not being able to accept your own success and potentially the financial gains that come with that.

So money has been a problem for me in that.

So money has been a problem for me in that.

Way, and coming from your identity as a skateboarder, and then now fast forwarding to now, is there an amount that you feel would be acceptable for you to make and still maintaining your identity.

Way, and coming from your identity as a skateboarder, and then now fast forwarding to now, is there an amount that you feel would be acceptable for you to make and still maintaining your identity.

Yeah, So first of all, it's not just about how much you make, but it's how you make it. So the way that I generate income to the restaurant is totally acceptable to this kind of DIY skater punk mentality that I've grown up with and that I still still on some level subscribed to, because that's a set of a purists vision of creating art and articulating yourself. Where independent small business, I'm the only only owner and shareholder.

Yeah, So first of all, it's not just about how much you make, but it's how you make it. So the way that I generate income to the restaurant is totally acceptable to this kind of DIY skater punk mentality that I've grown up with and that I still still on some level subscribed to, because that's a set of a purists vision of creating art and articulating yourself. Where independent small business, I'm the only only owner and shareholder.

So there's sort of like the pure side of making money in my life, and on the other side is a.

So there's sort of like the pure side of making money in my life, and on the other side is a.

Different company that I run, which is more about leveraging my knownness, if you like, or my reputation with endorsements and sponsorship and getting behind products. So that's the part that I've had to reckon with the last few years, that that's a positive.

Different company that I run, which is more about leveraging my knownness, if you like, or my reputation with endorsements and sponsorship and getting behind products. So that's the part that I've had to reckon with the last few years, that that's a positive.

Thing for me. I couldn't really accept that at the start.

Thing for me. I couldn't really accept that at the start.

I was terrified of that side of things because I was solely a creative person that worked on making things, not influencing things, I suppose well, influencing things in an indirect way.

I was terrified of that side of things because I was solely a creative person that worked on making things, not influencing things, I suppose well, influencing things in an indirect way.

What is your net worth?

What is your net worth?

Well, my net worth is negative. I have a large mortgage on my home.

Well, my net worth is negative. I have a large mortgage on my home.

I'm fortunate to be debt free in my business, but it would be several million dollars in the negative. If I'd take all of my assets and all of my debts and put them together, I would be in negative by I'm guessing, you know, two two and a half million dollars something like that.

I'm fortunate to be debt free in my business, but it would be several million dollars in the negative. If I'd take all of my assets and all of my debts and put them together, I would be in negative by I'm guessing, you know, two two and a half million dollars something like that.

M have you ever spoken publicly before about your finances?

M have you ever spoken publicly before about your finances?

Never?

Never?

And how do you feel about financial and salary transparency in general?

And how do you feel about financial and salary transparency in general?

Well, I think that companies have to be transparent, but public companies are private companies don't have to be at.

Well, I think that companies have to be transparent, but public companies are private companies don't have to be at.

All, you know.

All, you know.

The question I was having, even with my partner Kylie, was like, who benefits from knowing my personal financial information? I guess it's other people listening, but is it me? And that was the kind of conundrum that we were sitting with this morning when we were discussing this.

The question I was having, even with my partner Kylie, was like, who benefits from knowing my personal financial information? I guess it's other people listening, but is it me? And that was the kind of conundrum that we were sitting with this morning when we were discussing this.

And I'm not trying to make cooi on it.

And I'm not trying to make cooi on it.

I'm just going, so, what's the benefit to me for telling the public my personal finances?

I'm just going, so, what's the benefit to me for telling the public my personal finances?

And I kind of am a person that kind of likes to pay it forward.

And I kind of am a person that kind of likes to pay it forward.

Spread goodwill in the community, and be held accountable for my actions.

Spread goodwill in the community, and be held accountable for my actions.

But I was really like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure who benefits from this. I don't think I do.

But I was really like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure who benefits from this. I don't think I do.

Maybe maybe I do, insomuch that somebody hears this and goes, well, that's not what I thought it was. I thought somebody who'd achieved that level of a success would have been in a different financial position.

Maybe maybe I do, insomuch that somebody hears this and goes, well, that's not what I thought it was. I thought somebody who'd achieved that level of a success would have been in a different financial position.

I'm not complaining.

I'm not complaining.

I feel like I've got a lot more than a lot of other people, you know, but perhaps there's a feeling within me that it's not relative to the level of successful fame that somebody achieves when they reach a really, really high level in their vocation.

I feel like I've got a lot more than a lot of other people, you know, but perhaps there's a feeling within me that it's not relative to the level of successful fame that somebody achieves when they reach a really, really high level in their vocation.

Yeah. Well, and again, I really thank you for being open, because I know that it's hard and it's uncomfortable, and I do think that it's helpful for people. I think it's helpful for anyone who aspires to be a chef or just looks at you generally and is so in awe of what you do. I think it's just a real world piece of information. I really thank you for being so open.

Yeah. Well, and again, I really thank you for being open, because I know that it's hard and it's uncomfortable, and I do think that it's helpful for people. I think it's helpful for anyone who aspires to be a chef or just looks at you generally and is so in awe of what you do. I think it's just a real world piece of information. I really thank you for being so open.

It's a pleasure, but it's probably it's maybe more of a pleasure for you, so I think, Yeah, I think it's a good thing to break down. For sure. It's definitely to boot subject. And it's not that I don't care about money.

It's a pleasure, but it's probably it's maybe more of a pleasure for you, so I think, Yeah, I think it's a good thing to break down. For sure. It's definitely to boot subject. And it's not that I don't care about money.

I think we all need to care about money and the freedom that a certain amount of money gives a person. But it's not my motivation in life. And if you're around my company and you saw the way that it operated, that would be very apparent.

I think we all need to care about money and the freedom that a certain amount of money gives a person. But it's not my motivation in life. And if you're around my company and you saw the way that it operated, that would be very apparent.

It's not irresponsible.

It's not irresponsible.

It's just that the way that I choose to spend the money is a little bit different than a lot of other companies.

It's just that the way that I choose to spend the money is a little bit different than a lot of other companies.

Maybe this is kind of what you were getting at earlier. What are all the different streams of income that you have.

Maybe this is kind of what you were getting at earlier. What are all the different streams of income that you have.

So really the two income streams that I have.

So really the two income streams that I have.

Are two companies kind of separate, so that the Attaca Restaurant Company and then the company that I call the Beentury Initiative, which is the promotions company. The restaurant company has got a very high staff to customer ratio.

Are two companies kind of separate, so that the Attaca Restaurant Company and then the company that I call the Beentury Initiative, which is the promotions company. The restaurant company has got a very high staff to customer ratio.

It's one staff member to one point two five customers, so nearly equal.

It's one staff member to one point two five customers, so nearly equal.

And anybody who understands anything about business would realize that that is very, very high, and that comes at a very high cost when you're paying people properly for the hours that they work and a fair salary. So OT is my passion, you know, something that I've been doing for a long time. Seventeen years I've been working at Attica. For the last seven years i've been I've owned it out right. We have forty of the most exceptional humans that I get to come and join each day and work with, and that is something that's sacred to me and something that I actively work to protect in the financial sense, but because of the enormous costs involved in running a restaurant like Attica, not just on the wage labor side of things, but also on the fukast side, it makes a modest profit. Now it makes a profit, and that's crucial. With those profits, though I draw a small amount from the restaurant.

And anybody who understands anything about business would realize that that is very, very high, and that comes at a very high cost when you're paying people properly for the hours that they work and a fair salary. So OT is my passion, you know, something that I've been doing for a long time. Seventeen years I've been working at Attica. For the last seven years i've been I've owned it out right. We have forty of the most exceptional humans that I get to come and join each day and work with, and that is something that's sacred to me and something that I actively work to protect in the financial sense, but because of the enormous costs involved in running a restaurant like Attica, not just on the wage labor side of things, but also on the fukast side, it makes a modest profit. Now it makes a profit, and that's crucial. With those profits, though I draw a small amount from the restaurant.

What has sort of.

What has sort of.

Evolved in my life is this ability to make an income alongside the restaurant. I suppose using you know, this thing that I protect in love as the the to help other companies promote their products or collaborate on new products with companies. So that could be developing a range of a product for somebody, that could be helping advertise their product. That could be holding events for that company, that could be doing an Instagram post another form of advertising. So that's really how I live in a lot of ways, and why I put such a variation on that number that I earn is because that the Ventuary Initiative income. It's up and down, so it's as reliable, you know as say like having fifty people at your restaurant every night.

Evolved in my life is this ability to make an income alongside the restaurant. I suppose using you know, this thing that I protect in love as the the to help other companies promote their products or collaborate on new products with companies. So that could be developing a range of a product for somebody, that could be helping advertise their product. That could be holding events for that company, that could be doing an Instagram post another form of advertising. So that's really how I live in a lot of ways, and why I put such a variation on that number that I earn is because that the Ventuary Initiative income. It's up and down, so it's as reliable, you know as say like having fifty people at your restaurant every night.

Pain talk about the balance you find between doing things that you maybe thought were sellout e and you know and not.

Pain talk about the balance you find between doing things that you maybe thought were sellout e and you know and not.

Well, initially there was no balance.

Well, initially there was no balance.

There was just like my cold kind of heart a pen which was like, you can't do that because that's selling out and I remember during the pandemic, you know, restaurants globally were smashed, and for the first time I considered this, this other way of earning an income. When a company approached me wanted me to do an Instagram post and they weren't prepared to pay me ten thousand dollars for one post, and for me, that was wild. And people had approached me before, but I'd always kind of pushed back on it, and it should be qualified that values still need to be aligned, that you can't just I can't just promote anybody's product, So you know, I felt like the values were aligned enough where I didn't feel compromised, but I still felt exceptionally nervous about it, Like I was, I've never ever put an ad on my Instagram before this, and I'm kind of terrified of the reaction. I understand that those demons are mostly mine, but nonetheless I'm like, oh, man, you know, you're such a sellout. And at the same time, the companies and dire straits and like, we could really use that income.

There was just like my cold kind of heart a pen which was like, you can't do that because that's selling out and I remember during the pandemic, you know, restaurants globally were smashed, and for the first time I considered this, this other way of earning an income. When a company approached me wanted me to do an Instagram post and they weren't prepared to pay me ten thousand dollars for one post, and for me, that was wild. And people had approached me before, but I'd always kind of pushed back on it, and it should be qualified that values still need to be aligned, that you can't just I can't just promote anybody's product, So you know, I felt like the values were aligned enough where I didn't feel compromised, but I still felt exceptionally nervous about it, Like I was, I've never ever put an ad on my Instagram before this, and I'm kind of terrified of the reaction. I understand that those demons are mostly mine, but nonetheless I'm like, oh, man, you know, you're such a sellout. And at the same time, the companies and dire straits and like, we could really use that income.

So I decided that I was going to do it, and the.

So I decided that I was going to do it, and the.

Overwhelming reaction was like, especially from a younger generation, was like, oh my God, that's so cool you're collaborating with that brand, because it's that generation that I was, you know, like the skater kid or you know, the kid listening to independent music that I was thinking was probably going to like chastise me for you know. So that was part of a really nice reaction from a different generation. So what I'm saying is, I think a lot of that questioning is internal. It's also from a deep historical struggle as well, and not having money and then the idea of somebody paying you a large sum of money for a post, you know, there's.

Overwhelming reaction was like, especially from a younger generation, was like, oh my God, that's so cool you're collaborating with that brand, because it's that generation that I was, you know, like the skater kid or you know, the kid listening to independent music that I was thinking was probably going to like chastise me for you know. So that was part of a really nice reaction from a different generation. So what I'm saying is, I think a lot of that questioning is internal. It's also from a deep historical struggle as well, and not having money and then the idea of somebody paying you a large sum of money for a post, you know, there's.

A sort of a ridiculous element to that.

A sort of a ridiculous element to that.

Yeah, it's really weird, like when you didn't even have like fifteen dollars to put petrol in your car, you know, not so long ago.

Yeah, it's really weird, like when you didn't even have like fifteen dollars to put petrol in your car, you know, not so long ago.

That's a that's a strange that's a strange.

That's a that's a strange that's a strange.

Reality, right. It reminds me that there's like some thing that like somebody like saw Picasso do a line drawing that took five minutes and they're like, oh, well that didn't take you very long, Like I only want to offer you ten dollars for it. How long did that really take you? Five minutes? And the response is like, no, it took me my whole life.

Reality, right. It reminds me that there's like some thing that like somebody like saw Picasso do a line drawing that took five minutes and they're like, oh, well that didn't take you very long, Like I only want to offer you ten dollars for it. How long did that really take you? Five minutes? And the response is like, no, it took me my whole life.

Absolutely, Like you've built.

Absolutely, Like you've built.

Up this reputation. That's why you're worth what you're worth on Instagram.

Up this reputation. That's why you're worth what you're worth on Instagram.

Absolutely, and that's you know, that's going out to thousands and tens of thousands of people. And I you know, really I apply that a lot to this journey of work, you know, which now like I'm forty five, I've been cooking professionally. First step foot in the kitchen when I was ten, and had my first job when I was fourteen, qualified by the age of eighteen. So yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of years, a lot of kilometers on my body, on my on my mind, a.

Absolutely, and that's you know, that's going out to thousands and tens of thousands of people. And I you know, really I apply that a lot to this journey of work, you know, which now like I'm forty five, I've been cooking professionally. First step foot in the kitchen when I was ten, and had my first job when I was fourteen, qualified by the age of eighteen. So yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of years, a lot of kilometers on my body, on my on my mind, a.

Lot of experience.

Lot of experience.

Like you said, you know, it just doesn't come instantly that sort of option.

Like you said, you know, it just doesn't come instantly that sort of option.

What socioeconomic class do you think you were growing up and what do you consider yourself now?

What socioeconomic class do you think you were growing up and what do you consider yourself now?

Well, it was very much a working class upbringing. My parents had bought a really run down farm in the back country of New Zealand in the late seventies and that's where I grew up. Our Quino, the place was called and I think they when they purchased it, it was an eighteen percent interest rate on that mortgage and they struggled, you know. It was It was the sort of in my mind a picture. It is the farm that nobody wanted, very very rough. All the fences were busted up, it was overrun with noxious weeds and plants you know that were really smashing the productivity of the farm. So they spent a decade working themselves into the ground to resuscitate that farm, but they never really paid themselves.

Well, it was very much a working class upbringing. My parents had bought a really run down farm in the back country of New Zealand in the late seventies and that's where I grew up. Our Quino, the place was called and I think they when they purchased it, it was an eighteen percent interest rate on that mortgage and they struggled, you know. It was It was the sort of in my mind a picture. It is the farm that nobody wanted, very very rough. All the fences were busted up, it was overrun with noxious weeds and plants you know that were really smashing the productivity of the farm. So they spent a decade working themselves into the ground to resuscitate that farm, but they never really paid themselves.

My mother she stopped school teaching for a little while.

My mother she stopped school teaching for a little while.

She was a school teacher, is a school teacher, and she stopped that for a little while while she raised the three of her three kids.

She was a school teacher, is a school teacher, and she stopped that for a little while while she raised the three of her three kids.

Along with my father.

Along with my father.

And probably wasn't it until I was in my teens when she started to take positions of seniority as a principal. That their income rose modestly, but it rose. So it was a struggle. But I want to say that we were really really rich in other ways because the farm was shipping cattle. It produced a lot of food, so we always had we always had food on the table.

And probably wasn't it until I was in my teens when she started to take positions of seniority as a principal. That their income rose modestly, but it rose. So it was a struggle. But I want to say that we were really really rich in other ways because the farm was shipping cattle. It produced a lot of food, so we always had we always had food on the table.

My parents avid gardeners, so there was always the meals.

My parents avid gardeners, so there was always the meals.

Are really important, and we had this kind of concept of making your own fun, so there was sort of no excuses not to have a good time because there was always a piece of wood that you could have, or there's a tunnel that you can take.

Are really important, and we had this kind of concept of making your own fun, so there was sort of no excuses not to have a good time because there was always a piece of wood that you could have, or there's a tunnel that you can take.

Money wasn't something we talked about really.

Money wasn't something we talked about really.

I was just aware of it because I guess I saw there maybe other wealthy of people in the district.

I was just aware of it because I guess I saw there maybe other wealthy of people in the district.

So my mom actually lives in Melbourne, and I told her that I was going to interview you, and I was like, have you ever been Attica? And she said no, and she got all excited and looked up, you know, the website, and then she was like, oh, you know, that's just really I mean, I do think she probably used the word expensive. I'm sorry, but you know, she cited the prices and just said, you know, I don't think that I can eat there. And I'm wondering if you can talk about what do you think is the wealth level of most of your customers and do you ever feel do you ever feel there's a tension given like your upbringing and the people around you and your upbringing, like whether they could afford to eat there.

So my mom actually lives in Melbourne, and I told her that I was going to interview you, and I was like, have you ever been Attica? And she said no, and she got all excited and looked up, you know, the website, and then she was like, oh, you know, that's just really I mean, I do think she probably used the word expensive. I'm sorry, but you know, she cited the prices and just said, you know, I don't think that I can eat there. And I'm wondering if you can talk about what do you think is the wealth level of most of your customers and do you ever feel do you ever feel there's a tension given like your upbringing and the people around you and your upbringing, like whether they could afford to eat there.

That's a great question, you know, Yeah, that's a really interesting thing. So kind of where like I started and where I ended up was not intentional, you know, even at the beginning of out a carer. You know, snacks for like ten dollars on trees, but like you know, well on trees, which I think in America you call main courses were all under twenty four dollars, I think.

That's a great question, you know, Yeah, that's a really interesting thing. So kind of where like I started and where I ended up was not intentional, you know, even at the beginning of out a carer. You know, snacks for like ten dollars on trees, but like you know, well on trees, which I think in America you call main courses were all under twenty four dollars, I think.

And for Australia, which.

And for Australia, which.

Has much higher cost than America, higher food cost, higher wage costs, that.

Has much higher cost than America, higher food cost, higher wage costs, that.

You know, that was pretty low price.

You know, that was pretty low price.

That was two people in the kitchen, two people on the floor, so the economics are really different. As time passed, I didn't have much of a sense of my ambition or drive. I probably didn't think that I was either. I think when you're twenty seven, maybe you don't really know. My soul drive always has been for it to be better and better and better, and that's still kind of the case today.

That was two people in the kitchen, two people on the floor, so the economics are really different. As time passed, I didn't have much of a sense of my ambition or drive. I probably didn't think that I was either. I think when you're twenty seven, maybe you don't really know. My soul drive always has been for it to be better and better and better, and that's still kind of the case today.

You know, I think.

You know, I think.

I'm much more thoughtful of my ambition now, and you need to be mindful of it. You know what people were prepared to do for you, You know that people would You know, if you're a position of power or influence, then people will do kind of anything for you, But you need to question that. Just because they will, it doesn't make it right. The thing about Attica, which is interesting and it's sort of different to a lot of other ambitious restaurants that I've been to, especially in the big cities like New York or London or Paris. Is that because it kind of has a community spirit like or a mentality that the restaurant doesn't see itself above the community. Ever, it's a part of the community that people want to come here, you know quite a bit. And people save, like people of you know, of.

I'm much more thoughtful of my ambition now, and you need to be mindful of it. You know what people were prepared to do for you, You know that people would You know, if you're a position of power or influence, then people will do kind of anything for you, But you need to question that. Just because they will, it doesn't make it right. The thing about Attica, which is interesting and it's sort of different to a lot of other ambitious restaurants that I've been to, especially in the big cities like New York or London or Paris. Is that because it kind of has a community spirit like or a mentality that the restaurant doesn't see itself above the community. Ever, it's a part of the community that people want to come here, you know quite a bit. And people save, like people of you know, of.

Not great means get to come here because they save, and they it's a really big deal.

Not great means get to come here because they save, and they it's a really big deal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was wondering about that if this is you know, for some people, this is their Beyonce concert or like this is worth it to save?

I was wondering about that if this is you know, for some people, this is their Beyonce concert or like this is worth it to save?

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, so they've saved for a year, you know, maybe to come and maybe like if they have a family, they've got a babysitter, and it's a really big it's a big moment. And those people especially, like that's who we live for because they really really engaged Maya.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, so they've saved for a year, you know, maybe to come and maybe like if they have a family, they've got a babysitter, and it's a really big it's a big moment. And those people especially, like that's who we live for because they really really engaged Maya.

And are the absolute best customers. They've researched really heavily.

And are the absolute best customers. They've researched really heavily.

They sort of know on some level what it's about, what's going to happen, and they are so excited because they're so engaged. So you don't have to have a lot of means to appreciate something that costs a lot of money. You know, I can' slight that whole. Anybody can appreciate. Anybody can appreciate food. So many of those people that you've just heard about the restaurant that hadn't dined here were really big supporters of us during the pandemic, when we were selling take away lasagna and cheesecakes and more humble offerings.

They sort of know on some level what it's about, what's going to happen, and they are so excited because they're so engaged. So you don't have to have a lot of means to appreciate something that costs a lot of money. You know, I can' slight that whole. Anybody can appreciate. Anybody can appreciate food. So many of those people that you've just heard about the restaurant that hadn't dined here were really big supporters of us during the pandemic, when we were selling take away lasagna and cheesecakes and more humble offerings.

You know I did.

You know I did.

I've told myself that I would never forget about the generosity of those people, because, you know, buying a seven dollars slice of cheesecake on your last paycheck, you want to support a company that you believe in Like that is so immensely generous to me, Like when you have very little money and you still have it with your heart to come and tell another human that. I stood in a little bake shop during one of the lockdowns as a woman told me that, and I thought, my god, it's just the sort of experience you only have once or twice in your life, and you must remember this. I don't apologize for the cost of the menu, because that's what it costs to make, but I am conscious that it does exclude people for sure.

I've told myself that I would never forget about the generosity of those people, because, you know, buying a seven dollars slice of cheesecake on your last paycheck, you want to support a company that you believe in Like that is so immensely generous to me, Like when you have very little money and you still have it with your heart to come and tell another human that. I stood in a little bake shop during one of the lockdowns as a woman told me that, and I thought, my god, it's just the sort of experience you only have once or twice in your life, and you must remember this. I don't apologize for the cost of the menu, because that's what it costs to make, but I am conscious that it does exclude people for sure.

A multi course tasting menu at your restaurant is three hundred and sixty Australian dollars, so that's about two hundred and fifty US dollars. Can you give us an idea of what how do you arrive at that praise?

A multi course tasting menu at your restaurant is three hundred and sixty Australian dollars, so that's about two hundred and fifty US dollars. Can you give us an idea of what how do you arrive at that praise?

It is the highest priced menu in Australia and most of our peers set their price slightly below that, and it will be really great if somebody would date the lead and set it at a higher price than us. That would really take a pressure off. But within that three hundred and sixty dollars, it's barely enough to run a really like financially viable business which I would really like financially benefit from. So you've got almost fifty percent going on wages routinely. You're in for thirty five percent on food because we don't compromise on any of the products we use and we don't negotiate suppliers down.

It is the highest priced menu in Australia and most of our peers set their price slightly below that, and it will be really great if somebody would date the lead and set it at a higher price than us. That would really take a pressure off. But within that three hundred and sixty dollars, it's barely enough to run a really like financially viable business which I would really like financially benefit from. So you've got almost fifty percent going on wages routinely. You're in for thirty five percent on food because we don't compromise on any of the products we use and we don't negotiate suppliers down.

So then you know, there's obviously all of the other overheads that other businesses have as well.

So then you know, there's obviously all of the other overheads that other businesses have as well.

There's insurance, there's the rent, there's office costs that you know, the list goes on. If you're really running a tight ship, you know, you could probably hope to make about three to five percent profit.

There's insurance, there's the rent, there's office costs that you know, the list goes on. If you're really running a tight ship, you know, you could probably hope to make about three to five percent profit.

And that's kind of the national average, so.

And that's kind of the national average, so.

That's obviously a fair bit lower than other industries profit margins.

That's obviously a fair bit lower than other industries profit margins.

And a lot of people.

And a lot of people.

Listening to this would wonder why, you know, I would even do it, or why it would take the risk, because obviously, if you're running at you know, a three to five percent profit, the risk of being in the negative.

Listening to this would wonder why, you know, I would even do it, or why it would take the risk, because obviously, if you're running at you know, a three to five percent profit, the risk of being in the negative.

Is always always right there. So you have a month you blow out costs or you you.

Is always always right there. So you have a month you blow out costs or you you.

Know, you have a staff or whatever it might be, it is a negative. So over time, I've got a feeling as a kind of a rhythm to our restaurant, and that's about where it sits.

Know, you have a staff or whatever it might be, it is a negative. So over time, I've got a feeling as a kind of a rhythm to our restaurant, and that's about where it sits.

Does that make sense?

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of people would be shocked to learn that a restaurant where you're paying two hundred and fifty US dollars on your meal, Like they'd be shocked to learn that, like you're not making a killing off of that, like you're a profit is not insane? Like are there dishes that you lose money on? Yeah?

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of people would be shocked to learn that a restaurant where you're paying two hundred and fifty US dollars on your meal, Like they'd be shocked to learn that, like you're not making a killing off of that, like you're a profit is not insane? Like are there dishes that you lose money on? Yeah?

I mean for sure, like we spend too much money on food. It really comes back to what you want from life and how you value things, and money has never been my primary motivation in life. There's so many things that I've experienced at the restaurant and in my career, even when you know in prior jobs I was underpaid and I've worked.

I mean for sure, like we spend too much money on food. It really comes back to what you want from life and how you value things, and money has never been my primary motivation in life. There's so many things that I've experienced at the restaurant and in my career, even when you know in prior jobs I was underpaid and I've worked.

That were more than money. And I have a very bright way of looking at things, like I don't need to dwell on the negative side of it.

That were more than money. And I have a very bright way of looking at things, like I don't need to dwell on the negative side of it.

But for me, there's a spirit and there is a sort of a euphoric relationship and experience that lives here. And so I returned to focus on the shared kind of experience and the feeling of creating things with other humans and those relationships like right throughout community, not just with my team, but with other people as well.

But for me, there's a spirit and there is a sort of a euphoric relationship and experience that lives here. And so I returned to focus on the shared kind of experience and the feeling of creating things with other humans and those relationships like right throughout community, not just with my team, but with other people as well.

And talk to me about some of the mechanics and economics of running a restaurant, like what are some of the costs that people might not think about.

And talk to me about some of the mechanics and economics of running a restaurant, like what are some of the costs that people might not think about.

Okay, so here we have only paid employees. They're all paid properly. It goes without saying that should be the default expectation of restaurants. The cost of having highly skilled people and them working a reasonable amount of hours, and I put reasonable between thirty eight and forty five hours it's about the maximum that somebody would work here, depending on their seniority.

Okay, so here we have only paid employees. They're all paid properly. It goes without saying that should be the default expectation of restaurants. The cost of having highly skilled people and them working a reasonable amount of hours, and I put reasonable between thirty eight and forty five hours it's about the maximum that somebody would work here, depending on their seniority.

Is the cost is very high.

Is the cost is very high.

So I can give you an exact figure from December from the profit loss where the wages were at forty nine percent of overall revenue. So that is for anybody in business knows that that is extraordinarily high. But that is just the true cost of doing business. Now, we charge three hundred and sixty dollars per person for food only here. That's a high price. But I won't accept anybody saying to me that that is expensive because it implies that it's not good value.

So I can give you an exact figure from December from the profit loss where the wages were at forty nine percent of overall revenue. So that is for anybody in business knows that that is extraordinarily high. But that is just the true cost of doing business. Now, we charge three hundred and sixty dollars per person for food only here. That's a high price. But I won't accept anybody saying to me that that is expensive because it implies that it's not good value.

And that's why I'm telling you.

And that's why I'm telling you.

That figure, because almost half of that menu price is going to the team, and deservedly so they deserve every cent and more so. Done for a second, think that this is me complaining about that. It's not like, it's just the reality.

That figure, because almost half of that menu price is going to the team, and deservedly so they deserve every cent and more so. Done for a second, think that this is me complaining about that. It's not like, it's just the reality.

Do you feel like the word expensive is synonymous with like overpriced?

Do you feel like the word expensive is synonymous with like overpriced?

It's dirty word for me, you know, like expensive is sort.

It's dirty word for me, you know, like expensive is sort.

Of the one of the only words that people seem to know how to describe fine dining. I don't technically classify our restaurants find dining.

Of the one of the only words that people seem to know how to describe fine dining. I don't technically classify our restaurants find dining.

I think find dining is more of a French thing.

I think find dining is more of a French thing.

What we're doing here is, I would say, is ambitious dining and personal dining. But it's pretty laid back and the food is playful, and so is the service.

What we're doing here is, I would say, is ambitious dining and personal dining. But it's pretty laid back and the food is playful, and so is the service.

It doesn't mean that it's not excellent on all the levels. It is.

It doesn't mean that it's not excellent on all the levels. It is.

But yeah, when somebody describes something as expensive, I think they're implying that it doesn't represent good value. And when they apply that to a restaurant experience that they've enjoyed, key we're being enjoyed, I think they're doing the restaurant a disservice. Because restaurants are the last, really last kind of small boutique factories where artisans are working crafts. People are working to make things daily from materials that are degrading daily, and that costs a lot of money. Like just to have that.

But yeah, when somebody describes something as expensive, I think they're implying that it doesn't represent good value. And when they apply that to a restaurant experience that they've enjoyed, key we're being enjoyed, I think they're doing the restaurant a disservice. Because restaurants are the last, really last kind of small boutique factories where artisans are working crafts. People are working to make things daily from materials that are degrading daily, and that costs a lot of money. Like just to have that.

Many people who are experts handmaking things.

Many people who are experts handmaking things.

For a very small amount of consumers each night, it will be a high price because people are going to be paid properly.

For a very small amount of consumers each night, it will be a high price because people are going to be paid properly.

Supply has got to be paid properly, and.

Supply has got to be paid properly, and.

If you're of an environmental mind like I am, then food costs more as well. To use more ethical ingredients cost more. I think we're prepared to line up for a very expensive pair of socks from a boutique with a label on them, and pay four hundred dollars for those socks when they might potentially cost eight.

If you're of an environmental mind like I am, then food costs more as well. To use more ethical ingredients cost more. I think we're prepared to line up for a very expensive pair of socks from a boutique with a label on them, and pay four hundred dollars for those socks when they might potentially cost eight.

Dollars to make.

Dollars to make.

That to me is expensive, you know, but a big group of people handmaking something daily from amazing ingredients, like an artisanal boutique factory, that that's kind of if it's a good experience as priceless.

That to me is expensive, you know, but a big group of people handmaking something daily from amazing ingredients, like an artisanal boutique factory, that that's kind of if it's a good experience as priceless.

Wait, who do you know is spending four hundred dollars on socks A lot?

Wait, who do you know is spending four hundred dollars on socks A lot?

A lot of people like we have this phenomenon, you know, of lining for boutiques here as well.

A lot of people like we have this phenomenon, you know, of lining for boutiques here as well.

I don't know if you have that.

I don't know if you have that.

I've lined up to experience what that feels like not to focase something and it doesn't.

I've lined up to experience what that feels like not to focase something and it doesn't.

Feel good mending alive.

Feel good mending alive.

Yeah, And then you know, to be greeted, you know, kind of grimly by a security guard and then to be followed around a botique by a bird of Prey salesperson. That's not my idea of good value or luxury. That's the opposite. But everybody's different.

Yeah, And then you know, to be greeted, you know, kind of grimly by a security guard and then to be followed around a botique by a bird of Prey salesperson. That's not my idea of good value or luxury. That's the opposite. But everybody's different.

Right, I'm curious if you couldn't tie more about some of the ingredients to use. I think it's on your website. You use ponia, nuts and marong these are indigenous ingredients. Can you talk about those? And also like, how do you involve people who are indigenous to New Zealand and or Australia into the conversation about how you create your menus and how you present your food.

Right, I'm curious if you couldn't tie more about some of the ingredients to use. I think it's on your website. You use ponia, nuts and marong these are indigenous ingredients. Can you talk about those? And also like, how do you involve people who are indigenous to New Zealand and or Australia into the conversation about how you create your menus and how you present your food.

So it starts in New Zealand.

So it starts in New Zealand.

You know, I grew up in a country that, for all of its flaws, acknowledges and celebrates Mari culture in a way that a lot of other colonized countries don't. That's not to say that we don't have racism, that Mari people haven't been held down by the invasion of New Zealand, but we did have some factors there, like the signing of the treaty, which set us in a direction, the right direction. I always say, not everybody would agree, but in a direction that able the general population, whether you'd be maor.

You know, I grew up in a country that, for all of its flaws, acknowledges and celebrates Mari culture in a way that a lot of other colonized countries don't. That's not to say that we don't have racism, that Mari people haven't been held down by the invasion of New Zealand, but we did have some factors there, like the signing of the treaty, which set us in a direction, the right direction. I always say, not everybody would agree, but in a direction that able the general population, whether you'd be maor.

Or Pakia Pakiha means inter a means white person.

Or Pakia Pakiha means inter a means white person.

To feel a sense of pride in the fact that we have, you know, this first nation's culture in our country.

To feel a sense of pride in the fact that we have, you know, this first nation's culture in our country.

So growing up there was just a normal thing.

So growing up there was just a normal thing.

We didn't have to talk about it really like that, and so that was something sort of sacred and special to me, and I carried that lived experience over to Australia when I moved here when I was twenty five. The experience of coming to Australia was jarring in comparison in regards to our First Nations people, Our abridge normatoristra under people have been through more than just about any other groups of people that I can think of, and so when I came here, I was really interested in that culture too, But I was also kind of scared of to be like the.

We didn't have to talk about it really like that, and so that was something sort of sacred and special to me, and I carried that lived experience over to Australia when I moved here when I was twenty five. The experience of coming to Australia was jarring in comparison in regards to our First Nations people, Our abridge normatoristra under people have been through more than just about any other groups of people that I can think of, and so when I came here, I was really interested in that culture too, But I was also kind of scared of to be like the.

Next white dude that would mess things up in terms of how that looks in the restaurant.

Next white dude that would mess things up in terms of how that looks in the restaurant.

I was really interested in getting directly to kind of what it meant to me to be an Australian restaurant. For me, that meant using foods that were endemic to this country and that we're a bit overlooked by the broader society, never overlooked by First Nations people. Of course, I just realized that there was these deep stories going back tens of thousands of years, and this intergenerational knowledge which is just undeniable. And so with permission, you know, when I've been shared that knowledge, you know we'll pass.

I was really interested in getting directly to kind of what it meant to me to be an Australian restaurant. For me, that meant using foods that were endemic to this country and that we're a bit overlooked by the broader society, never overlooked by First Nations people. Of course, I just realized that there was these deep stories going back tens of thousands of years, and this intergenerational knowledge which is just undeniable. And so with permission, you know, when I've been shared that knowledge, you know we'll pass.

That on through our cooking.

That on through our cooking.

So I like to think of it as diffusion, where you know, I'm respecting somebody's culture, acknowledging it and acknowledging it publicly both through my privilege but also through our weight stuff to our guests. This is an important role that food can play in Australian society to bring us closer together, to help the different factions that exist in our community to understand each other. In my opinion, like the greatest thing we have to celebrate in Australia is this ancient living culture. It's such a vibrant and unique part of our societ and you know, I really want to on my side of the fence, I want to help non indigenous people to see that, and it's just where I can.

So I like to think of it as diffusion, where you know, I'm respecting somebody's culture, acknowledging it and acknowledging it publicly both through my privilege but also through our weight stuff to our guests. This is an important role that food can play in Australian society to bring us closer together, to help the different factions that exist in our community to understand each other. In my opinion, like the greatest thing we have to celebrate in Australia is this ancient living culture. It's such a vibrant and unique part of our societ and you know, I really want to on my side of the fence, I want to help non indigenous people to see that, and it's just where I can.

But I started by admitting my ignorance and not pretend.

But I started by admitting my ignorance and not pretend.

To be an expert. I'm not an expert. First Nations people are experts on their own food and culture.

To be an expert. I'm not an expert. First Nations people are experts on their own food and culture.

There have been a lot of restaurants that have had to close their doors during the pandemic, and there's recently been some restaurants that sort of very elevated cuisine who are saying that it's not sustainable, it's not financially sustainable for them to continue. What is your take on all of.

There have been a lot of restaurants that have had to close their doors during the pandemic, and there's recently been some restaurants that sort of very elevated cuisine who are saying that it's not sustainable, it's not financially sustainable for them to continue. What is your take on all of.

That, Well, my take is that we are all responsible for our own actions. In my case, when I took ownership of the restaurant, I knew that it needed to change, so seven years ago I had to implement those changes. I do think it's a cop out to say to blame the system, because, like I said, we are responsible for that system.

That, Well, my take is that we are all responsible for our own actions. In my case, when I took ownership of the restaurant, I knew that it needed to change, so seven years ago I had to implement those changes. I do think it's a cop out to say to blame the system, because, like I said, we are responsible for that system.

We are not victims of the system.

We are not victims of the system.

We are also culpable within the system and sometimes of perpetuating the system. So I had examined that with myself, and so I would say to people that are unhappy with the problems that exist in the hospitality to just start with changing one thing, Like it doesn't have to be a big thing, just change one thing about the culture that you don't like.

We are also culpable within the system and sometimes of perpetuating the system. So I had examined that with myself, and so I would say to people that are unhappy with the problems that exist in the hospitality to just start with changing one thing, Like it doesn't have to be a big thing, just change one thing about the culture that you don't like.

Like I'm speaking of the restaurant owners, chefs, people of power.

Like I'm speaking of the restaurant owners, chefs, people of power.

Now, it's hard for employees to affect change unless they have somebody at the top who is open to it. And I would come back to another kind of thing that you know I once heard that I think is really powerful is that the definition of business is problems. So let's stop seeing the issues as negatives and see them as things that we need to change and that we have the ability and.

Now, it's hard for employees to affect change unless they have somebody at the top who is open to it. And I would come back to another kind of thing that you know I once heard that I think is really powerful is that the definition of business is problems. So let's stop seeing the issues as negatives and see them as things that we need to change and that we have the ability and.

The power to change.

The power to change.

And for me, like, I'm always thinking about who's coming next. You know, I employ a bunch of people that are the future of hospitality.

And for me, like, I'm always thinking about who's coming next. You know, I employ a bunch of people that are the future of hospitality.

I need to be making.

I need to be making.

Decisions today that affect a more positive future for.

Decisions today that affect a more positive future for.

Them beyond our business.

Them beyond our business.

That's that's absolutely key because you kind of want to leave the community in a better position than the one that you entered into. And the one that I entered into was intense, you know, with harassment and bullying and underpayment and drugs, you.

That's that's absolutely key because you kind of want to leave the community in a better position than the one that you entered into. And the one that I entered into was intense, you know, with harassment and bullying and underpayment and drugs, you.

Know, all these things that you read about.

Know, all these things that you read about.

Now that's not the only thing that was in my community as.

Now that's not the only thing that was in my community as.

A young cook, but that was the worst of it.

A young cook, but that was the worst of it.

And then a staff membercomes to you and goes, hey, you know this thing I'm experiencing, like can I talk to you about it? And you realize, oh, jeez, that's actually kind of a mistake of a company.

And then a staff membercomes to you and goes, hey, you know this thing I'm experiencing, like can I talk to you about it? And you realize, oh, jeez, that's actually kind of a mistake of a company.

So let's make like an informed decision here.

So let's make like an informed decision here.

I mean, I should have said, with all the changes that I've made and that I make and there's many, many, many changes that Attica has undergone over the last decade, is.

I mean, I should have said, with all the changes that I've made and that I make and there's many, many, many changes that Attica has undergone over the last decade, is.

That I consult the team.

That I consult the team.

It comes back to fundamental that profits, you know, it makes a restaurant sustainable, but never probably should never come before staff or the community. So that's kind of a core tenant of how I do business. I worked for an exceptional restaurant when I was twenty one. It was really ethical and it was life.

It comes back to fundamental that profits, you know, it makes a restaurant sustainable, but never probably should never come before staff or the community. So that's kind of a core tenant of how I do business. I worked for an exceptional restaurant when I was twenty one. It was really ethical and it was life.

Changing for me.

Changing for me.

Which restaurant was that it was.

Which restaurant was that it was.

Called the Roxburgh or Bistro and it was in Wellington, New Zealand. It was the top restaurant in the country at the time. The chef's name was Mark Limaker, and he's my mentor. He is a significant friend and we talk all the time.

Called the Roxburgh or Bistro and it was in Wellington, New Zealand. It was the top restaurant in the country at the time. The chef's name was Mark Limaker, and he's my mentor. He is a significant friend and we talk all the time.

To this day.

To this day.

Yeah, that was like the best thing that probably ever happened to me. I mean at the time it was that he was so elite as a cook and professional and I was in awe of like the cooking level and I learned so much on that. And then later I realized what the most special thing was, not as a cooking ability, but the culture that he built and the care that him and Helen, his wife had for us and float on to this day. I mean, it's immense, you know, so what an absolute gift. I'm so grateful, A beautiful thing happened yesterday.

Yeah, that was like the best thing that probably ever happened to me. I mean at the time it was that he was so elite as a cook and professional and I was in awe of like the cooking level and I learned so much on that. And then later I realized what the most special thing was, not as a cooking ability, but the culture that he built and the care that him and Helen, his wife had for us and float on to this day. I mean, it's immense, you know, so what an absolute gift. I'm so grateful, A beautiful thing happened yesterday.

We have this.

We have this.

It's a solution to a problem that we've been doing for a decade called staff speeches. It's around empathy. So for a decade we do the staff speeches. It's about bringing the dining room in the kitchen who have a historical kind of distrust and dislike of each other in hospitality. More broadly, I wanted to bring those two groups together and make them closer, or give them the opportunity.

It's a solution to a problem that we've been doing for a decade called staff speeches. It's around empathy. So for a decade we do the staff speeches. It's about bringing the dining room in the kitchen who have a historical kind of distrust and dislike of each other in hospitality. More broadly, I wanted to bring those two groups together and make them closer, or give them the opportunity.

I couldn't make them closer, but give them the opportunity to bring them closer.

I couldn't make them closer, but give them the opportunity to bring them closer.

And so there's a roster, and all of the staff are on the roster, and every Wednesday, a different staff member gets to present a speech to the whole group for thirty minutes.

And so there's a roster, and all of the staff are on the roster, and every Wednesday, a different staff member gets to present a speech to the whole group for thirty minutes.

The typical story is about sharing something about yourself, something personal, potentially other people hearing it, feeling empathy for you, and they're not overreacting when the shit is hitting.

The typical story is about sharing something about yourself, something personal, potentially other people hearing it, feeling empathy for you, and they're not overreacting when the shit is hitting.

A proverbial fan during that The more difficult part of service.

A proverbial fan during that The more difficult part of service.

Right about right, like humanizing everyone.

Right about right, like humanizing everyone.

Yeah, it's about different people that don't like that coexist in the building but don't come into contact with each other very much. Sure, it's the hardest thing to feel empathy for somebody who don't know you know, so to be able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes a powerful thing. That's one of the mechanisms that we use to bring the two groups together and to create a vibrant culture.