What Happened to Kevin Arnovitz? featuring Kevin Arnovitz

Published Dec 16, 2022, 6:47 PM

On today’s show, Rohan is joined by former ESPN NBA writer Kevin Arnovitz. They discuss Kevin’s experience of watching the NBA as a casual fan and the frustrating nature of the NBA regular season. Later, they wonder whether parity has actually hit the NBA and if current stars mean as much as they used to. Finally, they predict the battlegrounds of the ongoing CBA negotiations, and Kevin provides an update on his current career

Welcome back to another episode of Open Floor. I'm Rohan Acren. He joined today by an incredibly incredibly special guest. This has been long in the works. A lot of bartering went into this. He is an Atlanta native of Columbia grad, a long time writer for ESPN, a former editor at NPR. Here to answer the reddit question what happened to Kevin Arnovits. Kevin Arnovits is on Open Floor. Kevin. How's it going. I'm doing very well. I'm sufficiently amused that there's a that there is a fairly a Reddit thread asking where I'm at. Honestly, they have some good information on there in terms of the what you're rumored to be up to now based on what you've told me. So I the reddit slutes man, you cannot get anything past them. I suppose I don't. I'm dying to know who who who populates the the reddit sleuth ranks um, but whatever, um. This is thrilling for me because I was like the incredibly big journalism nerd who when they when ESPN started the Heat Index twelve years ago, I was like, literally, nothing in my life will be better than this, Like ESPN has Kevin Arnovitz Um and Tom Haverstrow just covering the heat full time. I'm so excited. UM. And now we're here doing a podcast together twelve years later. Kevin, you also made you just sent the most monumental email, one of the most monumental emails I've received in my entire life, when I told you I was a fan of your Top Chef podcast and you said, let's get lunch. I've been craving this place called Mini Kebab, and that not only has Minni Kebab been I've evangelized the restaurant to so many people. I think the chef Arman is one of my closest friends. And this is all because of you. People like, how did you hear about it? And I'm like, what's the funny story. I mean, Armenian cooking in Los Angeles, Yeah, next to Aravan or anything. And Mini Cabb was such an institution just when I live closer to it. Um to say nothing about that. It has its seating comfortably for three yea. There is no parking on Vine Street anywhere. Um, and yet it is. Um. It's not even a concept restaurant, but the concept unintentionally is brilliant. Which is what if you took small I mean, how would you describe the sort of the the the the the trademark mini Kebab? Well, do you know that he doesn't This is not to get too deep. We have this one emailer, Darryl Swenson, who gets really mad when we do not enough basketball talk to start the show. But mini Kebab doesn't even so many cabbs anymore. Are you aware of this? What do what do you mean? I mean, I don't. I don't eat anymore. I eat chicken the lape so they don't actually do the little mini ones that you can have wrapped. Yes, you have to order. It's like a catering special order to get the actual Minikebab. Minikebab. Yeah, I guess, I guess scale is sort of he's he was just like, yeah, I'm sick of making the mini kebabs. I'm mad at my dad for putting it on the menu and naming the restaurant after it. And also this restaurant that Kevin's talking about is like a It really is a hole in the wall, and he's mentioned there's like two tables in there. They do not even indoor seating anymore. There's one picnic table outside, and that's it, all right. What I would say to Armand is if I because I if I have an audience here and I can probably mentioned this next time I'm in there is what I would like to be able to do as a man who's who's um flirting with keto diet right now, um watching my metabolism slow to zero, is I would like to be able to order the chicken lit kebabs and the chicken buy shish um in the breast shish for that matter, as a la carte items without the rice and hummus one the no no, but you have to call. What I'd like to be able to do is to do it on the online delivery platforms um the pop be let your phone. Is I would like not to have to call to do all the hard ordering because I ended up doing is just having to throw away rice and throwing away right sin because you know it's just a sin you can't throw of course, of course, wow, well yeah we could. Honestly, we could do ninety minutes two hours on we have we have minutes exactly. But there's there's so much I want to get to. I really am thrilled, Kevin Um. I know that you know, we we see each other every now and then in l A, but we don't. This is like the first time I think we've ever had an actual basketball conversation will be on this podcast, and I'm very excited because you've genuinely been one of my favorite writers for so long and I'm I'm very excited to do this. We've never talked we talked basketball, don't. We've talked about the auto bio and sort of the Miami Heats selling out Um on the week side too in one of the more aggressive defensive schemes that we we we've we've certainly it's come up like I think we I think we had like one one legitimate versation on the way back from the Pacady and Farmers farmers Market, but not not in like you know, I'm really we're really going to drill down today, I think. So I'm very thrilled. Um. Let's start here because you are no longer actually covering the NBA for the first time in a long time, which is weird to me to think that I'm writing about the NBA and you're not. Um. And we talked a bit a little about this on the phone this week. Is you are now getting to experience the NBA, not as a writer, but someone who is you know, I think in between a casual fan and a hardcore fan. I mean, obviously you still know so much about the support. You can't just that doesn't just go away. But what's the experience been like for you kind of checking in and out of the NBA your own convenience. Right, It's so interesting And I didn't I was prepared for this, right because you live a life where and I wouldn't. I don't know how you would even catalog the amount of hours people like you and I spend watching the league. When you're covering it officially, there's the sort of I'm on the West Coast, so starting it for a clock. Uh, you know, you check in on the East Coast games. Maybe you're working on a feature about DeMar De Rosen, so for three weeks you watch every Bowls game. There's the second spectrum. Hey, I'm just gonna kind of watch efficiently how this team is defending the pick and roll because I'm I'm gonna be speaking with Zach Low and I want to be able to kind of show my work on that podcast, to say nothing of going down to Staples Center or if I'm traveling. And then so you go from this let's call it twenty hours a week of just viewing down to you know, in my new life, like two and a half hours, three hours. So all of a sudden, you become what I consider a casual plan. I would imagine that in New York at the NBA office, people who spend three hours watching televised NBA broadcast. You're probably hardcore fans, maybe not the hardest core of the hardcore fans, but it is this entirely different experience because, like you want to optimize your viewing, so you know, when you and I if you're doing it professionally, and you turn on, say a Clippers Denver game, and there is no Jamal Murray and there's no Kawhi Leonard or Paul George, you can settle in. It's like, Okay, you know, I'm here for the Terrence Man experience, Like I'm here to watch Zube defend as the big man in the pick and roll would observe whether you know what he's doing against Yoga ch and how you play that matchup. But when you're a casual fan, and you do want to do that optimization. Basically, it's like you goes say, oh, right, this is a really big matchup, this is the big ABC game, or this is a big Wednesday night or Thursday night game, and like the thing that I've noticed, um that I would say it frustrates me, because it's because there are plenty of other options. I wouldn't say I'm frustrated, but I would say that the thing that I've noticed I always knew, but it impacts me more and I have a different reaction to it as a casual fan. Is how rarely you turn on what you think is going to be a matchup of two top NBA teams and you actually get to see them anywhere close to them, Like it never happens, Like you turn on the Bucks in the first one of this season. Oh no, Drew Holiday, no, Chris Middleton. Oh well, I'm not gonna stick around for this. And it's not because I don't like the Bucks. Is I really like the Bucks, but I'm just not going to I have X number of hours to watch the Milwaukee Bucks this year ahead of the playoffs, and I'm just not going to do it on a night when two of their three best players are not on the floor. And like you, the same thing with the Clippers. Was really excited about them going into the season, and I mean, they're stacked and you just don't get to see them. And and it's sort of strange because I historically, as an analyst and somebody covering in the league, I am I wouldn't say supportive, but I am somebody who kind of early on and recognized that the A two games schedule is just it's untenable. And the problem is not that these guys are sitting out because they're lazy or obstinate or overly cautious. The problem is is like, yeah, if you want to win a championship, you're not gonna have a guy like Kawi land or playd minutes. I mean, hell, I think you are. You wouldn't blame them having twenty one minutes or even two thousand minutes, right, And and so I can't disagree. It's not like I'm throwing stuff at my TV saying, ah, this sucks. You know, Kauai is not playing it like I get it, um you know, but I do think that the for me, it makes like I'm now much more aware of just how uncompelling the regular season product can be unless it's like a marquee Christmas Day matchup of two great teams. Um, The median game on the league schedule, the fifth most important game or most celebrated game, is just not a great product. Um Now, I said, I also watched a great crazy Hawks Bowls closing overtime game the other evening, like after dinner, and was just like wowed and and it was an insane game. I'm sure league insiders really talked about. I was just lucky that I checked my phone and said, oh, is there a fourth quarter? You know it's six thirty eight Eastern Pacific time. Oh, the East Coast games are probably getting a fourth quarter. There might be a good one. Let me settle in. Like I've almost gone to a made it red zone basketball viewing on nights where I'm home after dinner for an hour or two, maybe before we put in a TV show or something. Um but but it is. It's such a different experience being the casual fan who will go days without checking the standings with the box scores and then just kind of says, oh, you know, I've got an hour here. It's it's it's it's it's the fourth quarter of East Coast and five o'clock games, like, let me, it's just a different experience, and it's the worst experience in the sense that I do worry for the league that it's just like you just don't get main major players playing at the top of their game in high stick situations at all, like they it never happens. Yeah, it's funny. I was at We're recording this on a Friday. I was at the Sun's Clippers game last night, and you know, second night of a back to back, and I'm with you it why should the Clippers push Kawhi Leonard on the second night of a back to back but he sits out, Paul George sits out. It's and that is happening routinely, Like when the Clippers played the Celtics earlier this week and most guys were healthy. I mean, the Celtics have their own injury issues, and you know you're not going to predict Al Horford going into the health protocol or what's going on with Rob Williams. But that was like the first time it felt like there was a game with steaks and it's just I think that's the issue you're getting at is you know, even that Hawks blows game, which was very entertaining, and you know, I enjoyed it that that Griffin game winner. I was like, this is nuts. There's ultimately it's fleeting it. It's very a fleeting, you know experience, because you're like, this game doesn't mistakes. I remember when I first moved to Los Angeles, I covered that first Lakers Clippers game back in two thousand nineteen, and it was like, this is gonna be the big rivalry durance out on the Warriors anymore. And my takeaway from that game was like, oh, like, I actually think that this is the first time I felt like a regular season game has mattered in so long because there's no big juggernaut in the league and all the stars are actually playing and it was still kind of the Clippers. I think we've always had an element of you know, load management and stuff in the league. I think the Clippers accelerated that conversation quite a bit that year, especially just because Kawai's stature in the league at that point that yeah, I'm with you. I obviously it's again like I'm watching every night. I don't even I don't even think about it. Now, when the stars missing, I just assume a team is gonna be missing. Guys. The Grizzlies haven't had a minute of Jaren Jackson, desn' vane and John Morand and Dylan Brooks playing together this season. Um. It's funny because you mentioned kind of the red zone experience of kind of bumping around if there's a good fourth quarter, you'll watch and the NBA is definitely, I think trying to capitalize on that a little bit. They have this crunch Time app now which is trying to rip huff NFL red zone, which is a smart thing to do, you know, hop around these close games. It's it's funny though, because you know, I mentioned on this podcast a few times this year about how I'm you know, I'm like back on the Miami Dolphins narcotic. Like two, I had four good weeks in a row, and I was like, oh my god, this, I bought a jersey which was really embarrassing, like really like so regretful. I'll regret that already. But it's just it sounds silly, but when I watch a NFL game compared to an NBA game, I'm like, this feels and there's so many reasons for it, but it just feels so much more important, and it's I'm I wonder if there's anything the NBA could ever do to kind of approach that level of steaks in the regular season again. Yeah, I mean I litigated this, I mean literally a seven team minute talk at the m I T. Sloan Sports and a W the Conference a few years ago, sort of begging the league to kind of take the HBO Peak TV f X network Peak TV sort of tech. And that would require just limiting or not limiting, but just reducing the number of regular feeling games exponentially, right, Like, I like I would go down fifty eight and and and it's interesting because I you know, talking with very smart people in the NBA who actually think about these issues. Um, you know, they've sort of determined even reducing any ten games wouldn't do anything like to have the effect that we're looking for, which is this matters, you have to go down at the very most of sixty four and then you probably have to go considerably below that. And um what is interesting is I went I took my dog Howard, who you know well, who you've cared for. Um, I took over to a friend's house. Um, that as a pool that lets us get golden retriever here in the pool on a hot Sunday afternoon at the benated football season, and he has like the league passed or not the red zone thing. I'm not a big football fan, I am. I am this classic, fair weathered Atlanta sports fan, stereotypical southern Atlanta Houston like Miami's like I only care about the NFL when the Falcons are six and two at the turn and even then you know whatever, and um, but it was just like it's like, this is what he does on Sunday after this. This is a very high power, high powered executive UM in the music industry and just incredibly intelligent guy. He's from the East Coast Eagles or his team, and it's like that's what he does on send the afterntive. It's like you get the little the floaty noodles out in the pool and he's got like the screen is like kind of by the pool and and it's just like it is so optimal and it's it's it's a ritual, right, this is what you do on Sundays. And it's just there are these moments now as a casual fan where I look at how well the NFL is position to just optimized fan viewing to get people to care about the game. It's not that they don't have the kind of narrative conversations that dominate the NBA and the transactional stuff certainly that goes on. But I was captivated. It's like, I don't I can't name five pro football players, Like I literally can't. I didn't realize that Matt Ryan had been traded from the Atlanta Falcons until I got there and realized there's some other guy now. Um and and they were playing the Seahawks that day. Um And. But I was just like, holy, Like the NBA just doesn't have this. It doesn't have and again major Baseball doesn't have it. Part of it is just the nature of what the NFL is, which is sixteen games. Though it's funny I heard one NBA official once joked to me it was kind of why I've always had um a soft spot for Adam Silver and kind of structural issues, which is like, hey, we're up to Adam. There only be sixteen games in the NBA. Like, I think there is a net recognition that scarcity could really help the NBA. But there's also a reality that like in terms of revenue in the gate and everything else, Like you can't have sixteen games, right, you probably can't have fifty eight games, which I want, um, unless you're willing just gonna pay this mortgage up front, like you're gonna pay this cost upfront, and just hey guys, we're limiting a quarter or third of the NBA schedule. We'll get some of it back through a mid season tournament. I am pro mid season tournament. Um. I think it will be lousy the first few years, and I think over time, as people kind of grow up with it, it will increase in stage and there will be a generation of kids who who don't know the tournament as a gimmick but just know it as a reality, and then ultimately they will take to it. But and I also feel badly because you know, I remember kind of somebody a fan on Twitter commenting that, like, you know, God on all order of its does is bag on how bad then it is? And I'm sympathetic to that, Like nobody wants to hear someone's like and the NBA, why can't you be more like your brother DNF? But um, what I would say is I only say this because I think when the NBA is at its best, like when you get high stakes playoff basketball where the teams are full strength, I think there's nothing better. I know hockey fans insists that, oh man, sudden death, golden goal kind of hockey in playoffs. There's nothing better than that, and I totally understand why it's appealing, even though I think the sport is kind of ridiculous. UM the general concept. I mean, it was like Tim Mathison in that episode of UM, that pilot of West Wing was like all goals are scored by accident and hockey, like I truly believe that, Like I think there's random Ricochet's um. But with basketball, I only because I do believe that, like if the NBA can get more peak n b A, like there's no there's no better product. I don't care about football, I don't care about baseball extrandings in the playoffs, I don't care about sudden death hockey. Like peak NBA basketball where everybody cares it all matters and everyone's on the floor is better than anything. And it's like I just would love to see the league be able to capture of that more often during the regular season, and I just don't think structurally the league is set up for that. And that's why I think the regular season product is lame, and it's why I think the league has sort of sold its soul to kind of Twitter narratives and try to position players there's something other than basketball players, which is great for people being positioned however they want to be positioned. But at the end of the day, like as my buddy Miles Brown, who you know, is a frequent Twitter it's like, oh, great, the league that is never about the game is back, you know, the game that is never about the game is back. And we're again, once again not talking about the game. And I do think it does have potential fatal consequences for the league unless, of course, and this will get to our I guess our CBA conversation, which is, unless networks and streamers fork over billions and billions of dollars for the rights to broadcast these games. And it really doesn't matter if you watch or not, because you know, the check cashes and if nobody under the age of third even watches a basketball game, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, it's it's fascinating because you know. I mean, I'm working on a story right now that entails like talking to players on a team that are you know, the team as a championship contender, and I'm like, isn't it annoying after you've been in like two you know, when you've been near your team for example, that's been in multiple playoff runs, It's like, why would how could you begin to get yourself to be motivated about the regular season. And I'm talking about as a player, like why would you know, just as just an example, like we're lucky that Steph Curry tries as hard as he does during the other season. There's he's no incentive to at this point in his career because they could enter the postseason at five hundred or whatever the case may be, and they can be confident in what they do. And you know, I wrote a small story last year also at just kind of the difference between playoff basketball and regular season basketball. No matter whether it was a coach, player, no matter the team, everyone, every single person, it's a different sport. Like independently giving me that quote, it's a different sport. And to your point about why it's so good, I think with the brilliance of playoff basketball especially is that when you have two great teams going at it, like you know, forget the first round, but you have two great teams like the Bucks and the Celtics. In a football game, like in an individual football game, weird stuff can happen. A lot of flukey stuff can happen. You can kind of hide behind it. In a basketball game, there's a hundred possessions in one game, like you mentioned, there's no scoring by accident, um, you know, over the course of a of a full playoffs and that's what makes it so exciting. And I when you talk to players and even they are like, yeah, you know, sometimes it is hard because we just played in the finals and you know, how to go back to such lower stakes basketball. It's uh, it's it's a weird experience at times because like I said, we're so I'm so deep in it now, like as you know that you just get used to it. But it really is gonna come down to if the if the TV companies continue to sell over the money, which doesn't seem to be an issue, um. And it's good to know that the league on some level understands like scarcity would help. I even just I think about the weird scheduling, and I understand that the logistical factors are so crazy, But when we're talking about say the NFL, even it's like I know when the games are, I know what channel to turn on and there will be a football on, Whereas the NBA, it's like last week or two weeks ago. It's like there was one Tuesday night that literally had one game on the schedule, then a Wednesday night that had like thirteen games. It did the day before Election Day, they did the every single team is playing and every game starts fifteen minutes apart, which I liked but then became overwhelming very quickly. Um, It's just it feels like, on one hand, I respect that they're constantly trying things, but it just it feels like they're not trying the thing that everyone knows is probably going to be answer, which is shorteness, Like give me, like give me two days or three days that I know are NBA days. I'm watching on Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday every week there's basketball on. Yeah. The way I I kind of I presented is I would have the league go dark on Monday, right, just you don't need to compete with it's Monday night football. Uh. The teams themselves will tell you that the arena um revenue is just like like Mondays, just a terrible night. Like like there's nothing that a CEO or ticket sales VP hates more than the schedule in August coming across their desk and seeing like Monday night dates, they hate that, right, so just get get rid of it, and every team should play like there's like a weekend pot of games, like you have maybe your Friday night is like kind of a national doubleheader, and you know, maybe one or two other games and you can flex it, and then everybody plays like either a Friday, Saturday Sunday game, and everybody plays a Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday game, right, And and in fact most of those games are on Wednesday, with the sort of the where the national viewer maybe looks at Tuesdays and Thursdays or whatever. And but to your point, is regularizing it, like there's a secular holiday in this country every Sunday between Labor Day in early January, right or actually well into February when you consider the playoffs, right, Like, it's just it's just understood. Everyone gets together. The bars in my shitty sports city, which is actually your shitty sport actually have like Cleveland Browns fans on Kawango crowded out. It's just like it's it's a holiday and it's right. And I do think regularity predictability, um, you know the idea like like you know, talk to a small market business side person in the n b A on a week where they've got to basically sell four games in seven days, where the teams at home for a homestand one day Wednesday and then god for a bit of back to back, which they really truly hate, not for restaurant recovery reasons, but like you know, try getting your metropolitan area of two point one million people to fill up that arena twenty thousand seats times too on consecutive week nights, right, like like they hate that. Um, and so it just isn't optimist. But and again I mean this is all you know, this is all structural. I do think, as you said, scarcity is going to have to factor in the equation. Or maybe it's just like you know what, hey, look guys, there's gonna be nine weeks of peak basketball, which is a sixth of the year for God's sakes, literally during the playoffs, you get meaningful games every single night, literally every night or day for nine weeks. And yeah, you know what, the regular season is going to have limited peaks. We can try to amp up some of the those peaks. I do think a tournament could be fun. Um. You know, maybe you can reduce games. Um. But and again, I tend to be less precious about oh, the poor kid who drove in from Baker's Field to come see Jayson Tatum and he's resting, or you know, like I do tend to be a little less precious about that than most people. It's more just I just think that what you should want for your product is for the median game, for the random van on the random night to turn on the TV and say, wow, this is compelling, you know, um, more often, and I just think it's better for the product. Speaking of that, we talked about this a little bit, and I did want to bring it up because you know, I mentioned to you, like, I personally think the standings are weird this year, and you're not the first person who's told me, like, just give it a little time. But I think if I told anyone the top six in the West, you know, thirty games into the season would be Memphis, New Orleans, Denver, Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento. You know, I can't even imagine the the odds I would have gotten on that. I'm not. I'm better. So I'm just I'm using that phrase like I know what it means. But it's been a weird season. Like number one to ten in the West are separated by five and a half games, one to eleven separated by six. Um, there's a case to be made that there's like actual parity in the NBA this year. Um. You know Howard Beck wrote about it for our site. Kind of just the nature of this this season being very bunched up. And when you and I were talking about this what we wanted to talk about on the show. One thing that came up that I thought was interesting is, like you mentioned to me ten years ago, we knew like the Spurs were going to be in the top four in the West, no matter what the thunder, We're gonna be in the top four in the West, no matter what. You kind of had these stalwart teams, and I think part of that was the player movement was not quite as much or not quite as heavy as it is now think we also had I I think the league is every day, like every successive day is more talented than day before. But you could maybe argue that, like the top end talent ten years ago made more of a difference than the top end talent does now. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this notion of parody. Do you think it exists in the NBA? Is it just about like we mentioned, people don't play as much anymore? But do you read anything into kind of this very bunched upstandings. Yeah, I don't know. I mean so, and I you know, I'd love to engage someone who actually kind of looks at it statistically, you know, our friends, someone someone who did research. Yeah, but I mean it's like, okay, so what are those teams that like? And you were talking too this like you could if someone gave you even money on as much as you wanted to bet on the proposition in two thousand and thirteen fourteen fifteen, the Oklahoma City Thunder will finish in the top four in the West. By the way, this was the hyper competitive West, right, Like take that bet like you would take it for San Antonio. I mean, hell, there were several years you probably take it for the Clippers, where it's just like, you know, you look at their basketball reference, it's like fifty fifty six six, you know, and like, okay, so why don't those teams exist anymore? Now? I mean, I think in the case of the Milwaukee Bucks, they do. And why do they exist but because they have one of the two or three best players in basketball, right And that was true of the Oklahoma City Thunder as well, Like he was just understood that, like the Kevin Durant team is going to win a regular season total of x um. Lebron was like that for a while until he's sort of, you know, took his foot off the pedal in the regular season. Um. But you know, Boston very much shares that sort of property, which is do you have a young top five player? Like do you have a young top five player? Is often the Derrick Rose in Chicago when he was healthy being all there, you know, up there for for for a very long time, obviously the heat during the early um heatles of era, Like do you have a young or prime top five player? If you do, you're probably going to be penciled in for a top four in your conference. And I mean right now is like who are who was? Who are who are the top five players in their prime right now? Young? Top young, too early prime to prime, not anywhere past that, Like who are the top We we know that the answer, I mean we we think that the answer is Janice Luca, Who else? Yokitch? Yeahs definitely Ta Tatum's controversial, but lit is for the argument is saying that he's a very freaking productive player who plays most nights, who they don't worry too much about rest and recovery. He's gonna be on the floor and he plays a two way game, right like, like that's Tatum and so okay. So to the E staid that there are a few of these teams like and I think Boston, Milwaukee, and I think before it's all over, Memphis is sort of distinguished itself as a team penciled in. If you want to put your also even money that they're gonna be a top four seed, you probably can do it and rest healthy so long as jaw doesn't get hurt, right Like, Like is that fair to say? I think so? Yeah, I'm we'll have to do a full podcast on the show about Memphis. At one point, which is first in the West, even though they've had all kinds, they played the most random line up some nights, Like I don't know what, like is it voodoo? Is it? I don't know what's going on in Memphis, but it seems like no matter who they put on the floor last year, job, it's like twenty five games and they's still finished, um second in the conference. So yes, but that's a separate conversation. But yes, if you want to have it, I will come on and I will watch Memphis Grizzlies basketball for three irrespective and you know, and I will um so yeah, but yeah, it is just um yeah, I've personally just had a hard time making out like what's real and what's not real in the season, like Indiana's fifteen and fourteen they just beat the Warriors. You know, Steph miss the end of that game. Whatever are they going to stick around? Are they not gonna tank? Like, what's the deal there, Sacramento? You know, come back down to earth. But the offense is still really good. Utah is trying. Like Utah is ahead of the Warriors in the standards and has been consistently for over thirty games. Now, like on some level, doesn't that have to mean something. Yeah, I mean the other thing is also I would say is and you were talking at the Pacers of the mid of the mid teams last few day. I do think there was this species of team. And by the way, okay, see in San Antonio, UM in Indiana penciled them in for fifty eight wins and they're gonna be in the top fours. That you can bet your house on it. Right, Like there was a formula there which is we defend like crazy and we rebound like motherfucker's right, and like and I know it sounds really other bit, but like that was just like you knew that when you went to the Hollinger teams at rankings before the NBA had it, Like like the Pacers were going to be a top five team and they were going to be both in defense and in rebounding. And I'm pretty sure of the rebounding. The street it's like, okay, well, it's almost mathematically unless you're throwing the ball around the gym, like you're going to just win basketball games. You're gonna win them against bad teams. You're gonna win them when you're best players may not be on the floor or may not be optimally on the floor. And I do think that, like is that formula, Like we know, like which teams right now are you know, you can bet your life on the fact that they're going to be a top eight a top eight defensive and rebounding team. And I think, like, like, who are those teams? Oh, Boston, I mean the Celtics aren't rebounding this year. But my sense is guy for a guy doesn't watch the game a lot, it's some um like I know that like Memphis, like like it didn't matter they didn't shoot the ball well last year. I know they like any team that gets a third of their misses is just going to be difficult to contend with and they're gonna win a lot of and like those things don't slump, like rebounding oddly and like rebounding defense don't slump very often. It's like maybe that's it. Is that formula, that old San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Like you know, we rebound the ball defensively and we defend and like if you do that, you're gonna just kind of look just sort of walt sleep off your way into fifty two wins. And then like maybe that formula just doesn't exist anymore. I don't know. It's it's hard to say it's a weird league. Right now. I want to get into the CBA talk real quick. I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, and I apologize in advance because I know you did not allow me to do this too. But do you get the sense that Boston is in a class of its own right now? Or do you feel like it's a wide open race? Oh no, no, I think I think. I don't say wide open, I don't. I mean I think Boston is. I was at that game that you were talking about, the Clipper game the other but of course they didn't play well and they were out of it. They pretty much, you know, called up the dogs early fourth quarter. But um, I think like they in Milwaukee are just clearly to me in the East with Brooklyn as this is the classic old Lebron Cleveland team where okay, they're gonna hang around in the fourth or fifth seed. We don't really know. They don't defend at least ostensibly, but maybe they could if they needed to. Like we're old and we're just that team, Like we're just not a show up every day kind of team. But I think Boston and I mean I think Milwaukee is really good. Um, I mean did they get there? They got their butts kick last night, right, Like that was sort of by Memphis. But I still in sort of an old softie that believes in championship pedigree and like, yeah, like the Firm of Onte Decompo Holiday in Middleton just basketball games professionally, Like that's just what they do. They win basketball games. Um, but yeah, the West is kind of weird. The West. I have no grasp on there's no old team with gravitas lawyers, and we know that they're vulnerable and they're not entirely. I mean, they're gonna miss Steph for two weeks. They're gonna be in a hole, man, Like they're gonna be in a hole. I Phoenix like in some ways fits the profile. Phoenix is like a roy shot test. It's like they could be you could look at them is that old team with maybe some gravitas they've been to a finals. Or you could look at them as like a new version of the Utah Jazz. Or it's like they maxed out. The vibes are bad. It's not gonna end well. Memphis and New Orleans are so fun on paper, and it would be we talked about the League office, I think the League office would be um, not thrilled with the Memphis New Orleans Conference Finals, but it would be incredibly fun on paper. But those teams just don't win usually so less unless I will say this, I mean the one thing those markets obviously are two of the three smallest markets. However, and this is something that you talk about sort of the league and its struggles and why isn't it compelling every night that I would say is like, yeah, I spent a lot of time in the last decade kind of talking to what I love doing is actually one of the more things fun things to do is not just to talk to basketball operations people, the gms and the assistant gms and the scouts and whatever, is you really start talking to the business side people in the d because they're really smart, Like the people who kind of run the teams are really smart, and the owners and the owner's conciliarias and whoever. And one thing you kind of I've written about this a couple of times, is like, at the end of the day, they're just the league succeeds and fails because it has like transcendent two or three transcendent stars. And by the way, those stars are Kobe lebron Step, They're not actually Russell Westbrooker, Katie Less their hearts and I'm not trying to impute them, which is like those those people might get you're a ticket package, like yeah, the house is a little fuller when Oklahoma City was in town back in those days, or Kevin Duranton Town, but not like exceedingly so. But the people who really and I do think that jaw and it's sad. I was working on a feature story, you know, one of the things that happens when you leave a career to start a new one and you you leave NBA reporting as I you know, I was working with my wonder rol editor Ross Marrison on a Ja Morant kind of like is he does what what is it that you have to have? Right? And Derrick Rose had it in one of the tragic stories of the NBA and the two thousand teens was Derek Rose who was positioned to become literally those one in a generation like literally it's a class. That is that since MJ retired, is is Kobe stuff? Like that's it. That's the list, Like these are what I call the mom test. Right, these are players that your mom who doesn't even follow week knows and can pick out of a lineup and knows I may see them in a magazine. Right and Rose, And it's it's when you travel the world as you do, like you know, like the like there's an inexplicable number of Derrick Rose jerseys on he in developing world countries. When you go and travel like it's just it's amazing and it still exists. Right, he was enormous And I think John and I was working on the story is I think Job, like they're gonna have to win, Like Memphis has to win to be that guy. There's a reason it's only Kobe Lebron step all have won multiple times. Like Jah could be that guy. And if Job becomes that guy, I don't think it matters that Memphis, Tennessee only has six hundred and forty thousand television households. Like if Jack can become that guy, like it doesn't matter what market you're in, it just doesn't. I mean, would it be better for the league There was a New York on his jersey, sure, but like people will gravitate to the Grizzlies of job Morant is doing John Morant things in June and lifting trophies and confettious falling in the FedEx form like it doesn't matter, And so I would say that's the only thing is like the league, My old employers probably don't want a Western Conference. I don't know if this this year for their their West this year this year New Orleans. Yeah, but if Zion actually is ever, if Zion becomes Zion and they go to sixty wins and he is averaging ten and six whatever the hell like and Jaws doing job stuff and they're both healthy, Like I actually think the league might be fine with New Orleans. Well, I would hope so, because my I want that to happen. Like I I was thrilled when Yokich went back to back m v P s and again not to keep going back to the football. Well, but like Yokich is boring personality, would like work in a football context, he would, he'd be he'd be a bigger star because of how boring and weird he is. Whereas in basketball it's like my parents maybe know who Nicoleon Kich is. My parents are like probably a slight step up from casual fan, right, Like my mom at least tries to keep up with the stories I'm writing. Like, but you know those fans should be excited about they're never like they I think the league would worry of Denver was playing in the finals, Like and by the way, has no disrespect to the Denver Nuggets. Like, by the way, you and I can watch there's nobody enjoy watching more than Nicola yok like like, but I just think that he does, Like it's it's watching the little guy in the matrix, which is what what the experience of watching John Miranda is. It's it's Zion Williams, And like, I don't understand how that body can do that. Like Yoki's vision is a is a beautiful thing and in his audacity to just kind of do a set shot from three. Yeah, but it's not it's not going to it's not it's not you know, it's like, it's not watching the little guy shoot like stuff. It's not watching Lebron, you know, which essentially is a proto Zion, right, um Zion with Yoki vision actually right, like like it's not Kobe you know, self self made myth and the whole persona craziness And that's a different, much longer conversation from a different day. But but I um, but yeah, I mean, I think I think that is this sort of thing with like Jaw is. I think I think jaw is so fundamentally important to this in league right now, and it's a thing nobody's talking about. Like I don't know, the Tatum. I mean, I guess if the Celtics win, Tatum maybe becomes one of those guys there seems to be a slight charisma deficit like canned. And the other answer might be there'll never be another one of those guys that the culture globally in the media landscape doesn't allow for a mom test player anymore. There'll never be another basketball player, whether it's Luca winning five championships or Jab winning five championships or the two of them playing in seven consecutive conference finals. And we you know that we don't live in a world that is suspicable to the quote transcendent as lead anymore. That's Serena and Steph, Lebron and Brady are the last of a breath that you know, even if somebody like the Mahomes, who's just God, it's like I don't even like football. I've kind of been watching kind of clauset chief Sky because it's like I just because I cover sports for a living, and I just you know, the same reason. I'm kind of in back into pro tennis, right, Like um Alcarez is just like insane and in the in this Danish kid I watched, beat Yokovic is like like there's certain things that athletes have, a certain charisma, certain stage presence called um And I don't know. Maybe the answer is is no matter how good Jaw is, like, there's a ceiling because not because of Jaw, not because of Memphis, but because of media and culture, and there isn't We don't have Michael Jackson's anymore. We don't have transcendent cultural stars and of any genre, of any medium, of any artistic form that allow for full global consumption. Well, it's kind of shocking that Janice hasn't become that person. And I know, like other people have talking about this, but he checks every box. He is. You talk about the athleticism, the way he plays, the smile, the charisma, the dad jokes, the story, the it's everything. It's it's a larger it's if you pitched it to Disney, like he has a literal Disney movie, so I know, but like even if it, if you, honest didn't exist and you pitched it to Disney, they'd be like, this is a little bit too much, and let's maybe take one thing away, you know what I mean, Like this is a little too good to be true, and it's it's a I don't know if concerns the right word, but it's it's intriguing to me that he is not like and I get that he didn't have you know, Sports Illustrated didn't put him on the cover and call him the chosen one back in the time when you know, Sports Illustrated covers resonated a little bit more maybe than they do now. Um, but yeah, it's it's surprising to me that he is not even a bigger deal, that that we're already looking to job that we've kind of already to an extent skipped over, honest. And I don't think you're wrong to do that, because but it is a little surprising that he's not like this international megastar. Yeah, I agree with And this is one of the reasons I'm sort of starting to be cynical and cynical, but I'm skeptical of the idea that there will ever be a basketball player who does that again, right, like, and I mean large, I think to me, be honest, I mean, one could argue, Okay, hey, the last name is a mouthful, which is which I think is unfair, right, um, And but maybe there's something to that, maybe, um, but maybe it's that he doesn't have the sort of valence that Kobe did. One way or the other. We loved him or hated him, and in the Laker brand itself was sort of wrapped up in that obviously being on a magazine cover when you're seventeen in Lebron's case, like, but it is one of the reasons I worry. And maybe it's nothing to worry about. Maybe it's just hey, it's just it's just not something that exists. Are in the league will be fine, and there will be hundreds millions of people that love John Ranthers will be billions of love Chamber and the way they love Michael Jordan's or or Kobe or or possibly staff. So I agree with you, I mean that that is sort of I mean, to me, Janice, is you know the fact that he is not at that absolute peak suggests to me that the conditions it's not Janice, it's the conditions of media and culture. Before I get you out of here, I did want to ask because there's a little bit of a newspack to this UM. Yesterday was December fifte which was the original opt out date between the n v p A and the NBA. They've extended that opt out date basically to give themselves more time to collectively bargain for a new cb A UM. And it's I said to you on the phone, and I said, you know, I said this before either in writing on podcast, But it feels like every c b A they tried to play whack a mole. They try to fix a problem, and by quote unquote fixing a problem, they create a new one, I think. And the last CBA was like, we're going to do the Supermax and we're gonna stop this player movement, and instead we have players like instead of like a one year are they going to leave window, it's a two year Are they going to leave window? Because everyone's asking if they're going to sign the extension or you have these teams who signed these contracts have become massive albatrosses and um kind of really affected on a competitive landscape this year. I thought it was interesting. Um uh, your friend Brian Windhorst, I think, had a very interesting report during the finals where it's like some owners are calling the Warriors win a checkbook championship. They just paid deep into the tax. I think what the Warriors are doing is in fact good for the league. All teams should be cajoled, encouraged, shamed into spending as much money on these rosters as possible. It's frustrating when they don't, um, you know. And on the flip side of that, there's the luxury tax. What I don't like about it is Atlanta just dumps Kevin Herder this summer and a salary move where I'm worried is Denver gonna be to pay to keep everyone if guys keep needing new contracts or are they gonna, you know, play the luxury tax cards. So I'm curious, Like you said, I mean, you talk to people. I know, maybe you haven't been in conversation with people recently, but do you do you have a sense of maybe is there a correction coming in the c b A and what what kind of correction may there be? See The problem is is that there are two battlefronts in every cb A negotiation. Right, there's the league versus the p A, the players, you know, the players versus the league. But the one and frankly, the one that was truly the complicating factor in two thousand eleven wasn't the league versus the p A as much as it was owner versus owner. Right Like we talk about, oh, the Warriors are playing, remember the Miami Heat, right Like, like Mickey Arison, you're barking up the wrong owner. It's five dollars. Ultimately, along with four other owners, Arison is one of those who doesn't even approve, almost as a protest against his fellow owners, is one of the five that doesn't. Ultimately, you vote for the final settlement with the players, right, and so, because yeah, the league and the p A are going to argue about, you know, where that br I line is and whether it's flexible, remember the old oh is it really fifty one or is it fifty point two? And blah blah blah like that that's gonna happen. They're gonna haggle over certain you know, sort of mega salaries or whatever and andy. But to me, I think where it's going to get really sticky is when they kind of have to. Yes, the Warriors are are symptomatic. By the way. The Warriors only have that issue because of the spike in two thousand sixty, right like like that became Kevin Durant. Remember, we weren't going to smooth and by way, I was an opponent of smoothing, and I was wrong, right like, um, they should have smoothed and um. And so that spike became the means by which they got Kevin Durant, which got them de'angelo, which got them Wiggins, and now which got them that massive bill. Right. But the problem in the league has is there's a recognition the Milwaukee Bucks lost a ton of money on route to a NBA championships the Cleveland Cavaliers in two thousand and sixteen, in the fifth year of the new um of the new cb A. I think it wast close to a hundred million dollars on route to a NBA championship. Is a near mathematical certainty that if the Memphis Grizzlies build a championship calor team, which they are in the process of doing around John Moran, Desmond being and Jaren Jackson and the guys you're talking about, and that they want to keep that team together. They will exist in the red for a long time. Right, Like for a lot for most of the league, there are two choices like be mediocre and steadily lose a little bit of money, or be really good and lose a ton of money. And you ask the Oklahoma City thunder will will tell you, like, you know, they are able to squeak out the most modest of games, um, certain years, right, but it is a virtual impossibility. Um. Now, one could argue to the Memphis Grizzlies and Milwaukee Bucks and the Cleveland Cavaliers of the world, like, look, your asset is gonna eat. Yes, you're absolutely You're going to incur annual losses in exchange of those lasses. You know, you will also watch your equity increase multiple because your asset exists in a purtual, perpetual state of scarcity. Right, Like, at most two new clubs will be creating in the next generation. Right, we might have an expansion of two. So you're gonna lose money all the time and then, but your equity is going to increase because the value of the thing you bought for seven million dollars is going to be one point eight billion or god, judging from what might happen in Phoenix, two point whatever billion. Um, so because the world is not making more basketball teams that they are making more billionaires and and and Saudi sovereign wealth funds because say nothing of Saudi sing God, got imagine that market opens up? Right? Did you see that? Like the Sun's like the latest potential owners It was like Peter Thiel and like Saudi sovereign wealth funds like the you know, I just feel like they're really opening up a weird portal here. Well I mean I mean yes, no, I mean and by the way, like it's not this isn't a normative statement about Peter Teal, Like look, I would love for there to be an openly gay sports owner. I would like it not to be Peter Teal. Can we go back to Geffen, we can buy out a team for his Yeah, so um that is the norm right, Like like look around I mean the global sport like like I mean, look at the roster of owners in the English Premier League, right, very true, Like it's amazing that the league has been so wonderfully precious about only allowing hedge fund Americans and tech e's and this cadra of old dudes like the Simons who still have their money in real estate and you know, Steve Balmer and like like it is kind of like quaint. I mean, the truth is is if open to the full world, there would be I mean, I'm sure there'll be a Quatari or two and and and lord knows from that part of the world and um or whatever. But but I do think that, like like I do think that watching the owner versus owner discontent, most of us are going to be focused on the player versus own and rather though that that's not nothing. I mean, that is ultimately what's could But it is the owner versus owner and the level of tolerance um by a group of owners who buying large. This isn't their first business anymore. So what's good will happen is they'll allow the league to sort of They're not going to be involved in the minutia early on, but eventually you're going to get to these revenue sharing things because as the percentage of expenditure that involves player salary, the harder and harder it becomes to the New Orleans is and the Memphises and um, you know at this point. Now, by the way, I do think it's it's a misnomer to always say small market, big owner. Like there is a lot of kind of like say this about the Bus family, and I've been extremely critical of their ownership. Um to me, they have always been I think a good I think a good faith to Thison's in sort of making sure that what's good for the media and NBA team is good for the Lakers and it's good for the league. Right. But I do think watching those that conversation is going to be important because it is just like again, there isn't enough revenue share to make team's hole at a time when by the way, let's talk about local TV contracts rang Yeah, like if there, I don't know what happened in Portland. They has a four year deal with Roots Sports and it's a new platform. But I damn well, no, it's not that profitable. Um, because we're probably everybody. Look, Steve Balmber wanted to do over the top, Um, yeah, deal and realizing when you tell, you know in bomberable is the verse to say like, hey, it's what I wanted to do, It's what I think if you were starting from scratch, we should do and it is completely mathematically and financially untenable right now. Um, so I do think that is going to be like like like the Milwaukee Bucks, the Evelan Kevin, like, what do we do? Like we don't have the capacity to me, like, are they willing to just say, okay, our equity goes up and if we need to sell, we'll sell and we're not gonna be sentimental about this, But are you willing to incur huge losses every year to be to keep big teams together in the way that the Warriors have? I don't I'm with you on the Warriors, like I think that's how the league should work. You mean, basically have a team that maximizes its revenue in its building. Um, understands how to do that. By the way, they have not a great local TV deal. Um, And I'm with you, like I want I don't want a hard cap, which is by the way, going to be the red line right um, because I don't want. I don't like that. The only thing I don't like about the NFL my understanding is like you can't keep teams to get right, Like I don't want someone have to sacrifice. I don't want Drew Holiday to have to get pass before anyway, you know, Like I think it's bad for the league, especially the problems we talk about. But but I do also think that there's great incentive right now to get a deal done because think about it, like you talked about it new media deal, right, Like, what does I think it's fair to say that any media company, whether they are the traditional bidders like Turner and my former employer, UM, whether they are the streamers getting in on the package, I think it's fair to say that labor peace is the most important. They're one of the most important variables and sort of their competence to bid. And I think that I don't think there's gonna be a huge appetite right now for stoppage. That said, again, it depends on how intransigent certain owners are willing to be. And I actually don't even want to use in transigent as ab jarative because like, like I think, I think some of these markets have every right to be in transigent. And then on the other hand, I'm a labor guy, so like, I like there's a part of me that says, fuck it, like there should be no salary. There should be no because like you know, I think that professionals would be able to to command with a lebron should be getting right, I mean to me, it would be like I just nationalized, I would collective as the whole league. And I think that, like, you know, obviously though the Knicks and Lakers will have something to say about, right, like, like it would be great that we were in a world where like there was one big pool of money television revenue, gate revenue was collectivised, and you know, but obviously the Lakers in Nick's arca over that north should they? Right? Like? So it is weird because I have all these as just an observer and an analyst and someone who has gotten to know some of these poses small market teams. But it's an appreciation like you do for like, hey, you know what dynasties are good? Like I'm not. Yeah, by the way, the Los Angeles Lakers being good is good, um, as much as I enjoy sometimes their failure um and get to kind of you know, have some showden freud about their fury as an organization, right, Like the truth of the matter is, if I'm Adam Silver, like, it's good if the Los Angeles Lakers are good. It's the old David Stern, right, who's my ideal final the Lakers Lakers. So I get pulled in all these different directions because I have great like I see the great work being done at places like Milwaukee as an organization and Memphis as an organization, and like, I had much admiration for those teams, and also like you like you get to go around the league, like the more time you spend in the smaller markets, like the greater appreciation. Absolutely when you go to Salt Lake, like like it's almost in that city and that team in Memphis and it's just a different live It's just kind of cool, and I want them to succeed and I think it's good. On the other hand, I also am a realist, and um, I don't know what you do about the fact that they are only six. Maybe there is part of me that's like, what the hell is the League doing in a market like Memphis in the world is again it's a different part of me, but I, um, that's a different day. But I kind of have great sympathy for those markets. On the same time, though, is I I don't have sympathy for is just sort of artificially suppressing players out res relative to market value. Like I don't have a lot of patients for that, Like I'm a labor guy first and foremost, So I don't know. Man, it's a big mess. But I would say my thing is my storylines. Don't just watch player player association versus league slash owners, watch owner versus owners because that's where it got really sticky in two thousand and eleven. And I think that the extent it does get sticky, I think that's where it's going to get sticky. I'm with you. My nuclear hot take, by the way, is that players should vote on contracting two teams. But that's a different podcast. I want to. I want to. It's a fun one. Listen. We have very little time left, but I want to give you the platform. You know, you could take this in a direction you want. You can let people know, you don't let people know. But I I read it is asking what happened to Kevin Arnovits what is he up to? And I just I just if you if you want to share, you can share. If you don't, you don't have to. But yeah, no, no, I mean you see it as concise as possible. Um, I had the greatest job in world report teen years. I got to cover the NBA. Thanks to the ability of Henry Abbott and Royce web two Cohn ESPN management into hiring some guy from public radio who had never come up through a news room in sports. UM I got to fourteen years cover the league for ESPN. UM, running around the country, writing, reporting, meeting people. UM, it's fantastic, Like it was the greatest job in the world. UM I am. I'm so gratefully the opportunity. Uh, it was amazing. UM. I am somebody who gets professional wander lust. And UM that happened in my previous career I got was in Paul the radio of where I was like I was in politics in the beginning of my life and hated that. UM. And so I don't think I'm someone who can stay in any job for longer than like fourteen or fifteen years, which was pretty much the limit, which was this job. And I've I've had an itche I wanted to scratch, which is I've always loved UM. I've always loved the idea of screenwriting and always something I thought, Hey, if I wasn't doing this, made this NBA thing. I'd love to do that, and um, I I kind of drinking COVID shutdown. I took a little gander, and I was very fortunate. Um I had a screenplay that was bought by a studio and then I had a second one, and um it was one of those things where, UM, I just wanted to kind of see it through, like what would happen if I did this full time? Right? Um And also at the time where I think, like I, I God, I love the NBA and I loved working for ESPN covering the NBA, but I think it was just kind of time. It's uh, you know, I want to kind of you know, leave in my own terms that you know, you know, leave the party before you know, kind of it dies down. And and um, so I'm doing this other thing and I'm trying to make a go of it, and um I've had some good early success. It is a really capricious industry and we'll see. But I'm having a blast and it's just kind of fun to be at the beginning of something which I had, Like I have the same feeling I had like those first few years and you know, this like covering the league, your first few years, right, Like, you know, and you're getting to meet people, and you're finally having the conversations the people you hope to have conversations with, and people are trusting you with information, and you're getting better at your craft, you know, that feeling where you're looking like, oh, my future story is better than it would have been three years ago, getting my new skills and and the good editing I'm getting or whatever it is. And um, I'm having a blast because I'm not young. Um having that experience one last time, Like I don't know how many times in your life you get to have the experience of being like really psyched at the beginning of a career, right, Like it's just it's it's something you realize once you leave behind your fourteen years and like I was, you know, that's that honeymoon is over, and that honeymoon is great, and you know it last a few years. So I'm that's what I'm doing in the in the screenwriting world, and you know, I have a TV pilot and the feature and lord knows will ever make it a screen because like it's just a weird industry and I'm but I'm having a great time with it. Um, but that's that's what I'm doing. I just kind of after fourteen years, you know, I think I think I beat stein By Mark Stein by like one or two months. I think I am the longest tenure not don't know that any NBA contributor whose primary function was writing, not like the TV folks. Um, I think I have the at fourteen years and two months, I think I have. I think I beat Stein by one month, right, Like I think I am the longest ever tenured writer for ESPN n B A. Um, I think now somebody will pass me. Brian Windhorses is gonna pass me in a couple of years. But um, so it's just like it was just that that's kind of what I'm doing. That's that's what I'm doing. And I'm in Los Angeles just doing the screenwriter thing. It's a it's a wonderful, terrible, awful, amazing fun cliche. Well, there he is now the reddit. The reddit thread can be answered. Um we can throw a link to this in here. Um, we finally answered the question. Kevin Arnovitz, thank you so much for joining Open Floor. Hopefully I'll see you soon. We can catch a screening of the menu sometime. Thank you so much for joining the show Man. I really appreciate it. You got it. Whoa, whoa what what

Open Floor: SI's NBA Show

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