James Alison, theologian and Roman Catholic priest, joins Peter Catt and Dom Fay to explore the meaning of the cross in the light of the work of René Girard. In this conversation, James explores how humans have a history of excluding others and the way Jesus changes all that by volunteering to be the person who was excluded. Shifting the story in this way changes not only how we see our faith, but also how we treat each other and understand relationships. The ideas explored in this conversation help us to understand ourselves and our own patterns of imitative desires and behaviour, even as it gives us insight into patterns of violence in our societies and throughout history.