Zane Lowe ON: 3 Tools for Navigating Social Anxiety & 3 Ways to Change Your Relationship with Your Ego

Published Oct 6, 2023, 7:00 AM

How do you deal with social anxiety?

Do you have tools in place to help you overcome anxious thoughts?

Today, Zane Lowe sits down with Jay Shetty for a conversation about success in career, marriage and parenthood, and how to navigate social anxiety. Zane is a grammy-nominated producer, executive, and radio host. He is Apple Music’s Creative Director and the flagship anchor for Apple Music 1, part of the award-winning Apple Music Radio.  In addition to hosting his daily show, Zane curates original programming and oversees Apple Music's artist-led programming, which features shows hosted by Lady Gaga, Billie Eilish, Lil Wayne, Justin Bieber, and many more.  

Zane opens up about his lifelong passion for music, which was ignited by a chance meeting with Split Enz. What's truly remarkable is that, despite his immense success in the music industry, He remains a devoted fan at heart. He reminds us that our passions can be a driving force in our lives, and when we put our focus on manifesting what truly matters, we can create space within ourselves for the good things.

As we dive deeper into this candid discussion, Zane shares his insights on maintaining a balanced life in the face of distractions and the importance of cherishing the simple things. He highlights the value of creating communities and experiences that inspire others, shedding light on how therapy played a pivotal role in preparing him for parenthood, and the essence of love as an unspoken language, the secrets of lasting marriages, and the true meaning of greatness. 

In this interview, you'll learn:

Why you need to focus on what truly matters in your life

How to create space for positive things

The power of shared experiences in a community

How to love deeply and more meaningfully

How to be in-tune with your ego

How to maintain a healthy balance in your life

How to have impactful and inspiring conversations

In the end, we are reminded that the most inspiring conversations often happen with those who have no intention to sell, leaving us with profound insights about life and purpose.

With Love and Gratitude,

Jay Shetty

What We Discuss

00:00 Intro 

01:29 How A Life-long Passion For Music Evolved Into A Successful Career 

07:36 We Manifest The Things We Focus On 

10:06 Dedicate Your Focus To Things That Feel Authentic To You 

14:19 The Importance Of Creating Space Within Your Mind 

16:30 The True Purpose Of Music Is To Inspire and Create Community 

20:55 How Therapy Helped Prepare Zane For Parenthood 

24:55 What Kind Of Father Do You Want To Be? 

26:30 Why Is Love Considered An Unspoken Language?

29:36 You Need To Grow Together If You Want Your Marriage Can Last 

33:44 Navigating Social Anxiety 

36:26 True Greatness Comes From Knowing How To Access It 

42:06 How To Recognize A Genuine Connection With An Individual 

45:37 What’s Your Relationship With Your Ego? 

51:30 Do You Manifest? How Do You Practice Manifestation? 

53:23 How Do You Manage Ambition And Still Maintain A Balanced Life? 

58:46 You’ll Miss Opportunities If You’re Only Focused On Speed 

01:01:00 Practicing Healthy Routines 

01:04:07 Undoing Habits And Practices That Society Built For Us 

01:11:03 What Is The Difference Between Working And Working Hard?

01:11:55 The Most Inspiring Conversations Are With People Who Have No Intention To Sell 01:17:25 Zane Lowe on Final Five

Episode Resources:

Zane Lowe | Twitter

Zane Lowe | Instagram

Zane Lowe | Facebook

Zane Lowe | TikTok

Zane Lowe | YouTube

The Zane Lowe Show

Just pull the car over. Stop driving in a direction that you think you should go in it because your directionless. Right now stop, let all the cars drive past you and enjoy the fact that you're actually stopping.

It was Zing Low, Same Low International, DJ Apple Music's creative director. I love you there.

I'd rather just start. I already have a big introduction. I really genuinely thought, I'm just going to live with these aches. This will be it for the rest of my life. Why would you want to live with pain? How do you work them? Where you achieve them more? You achieve them where you tell yourself you're okay, the where you tell us off you're okay. Not dealing with the ship.

Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best selling author and close the number one healthy well in the podcast Purpose with Ja Shetty, how do you describe what do you do? How do you like to choose? Because I feel like when you have a role that is public, like I always get asked what do you want your lower third to say? And I don't like being defined by the lists of roles in titles. So how would you describe what you do or what you believe in?

I agree, I mean, I think roles and titles make it easier to work with other people with roles and titles, but I think in life it's different. In my life, I'm just a fan. I'm just a I'm a fan. I'm someone who discovers something very early on in life that stuck with me. I knew it was going to be very special and important to my development, to my identity, to helping me find my way in life. And once I kind of made it a singularity rather than one of many hobbies. It just I just tried to immerse myself in as much of it as possible, like almost obsessively. And so I'm just a big, big fan of what I love, which outside of my family and friends as music. So I'm just I'm just a super fan that is.

I love that. That's such a great cool way of defining yourself with with that you've sat down with Obviously so many incredible artists and beautiful interviews I've watched your One of my favorite interviews is yours with Harry Stalze. That was I thought that was brilliant. But when was the first time you felt like a fan when you hadn't met someone? Like, when was the first time you felt like a real fan when you didn't sit opposite that person and you didn't know that person? And do you remember that moment? You mean, like at a concert and stuff at a concert, or like when you bought your first record, or like where was that experience of your first moment?

Beautiful question at the gate bro, Like, what an amazing question. The first time I really I really realized that it was chemical. It was It wasn't really a something by design, it was it was reactive. Was probably going and seeing a band called Split Ends, which is arguably New Zealand's most influential and legendary band. They were around predominantly in the seventies and had a lot of success in the eighties in the In the in the late eighties, they splintered off and neil Finn left to go and form Crowded House, And of course everyone knows Crowded House and neil Finn don't dream it's over, and you know, he had a huge He's had huge success in a huge career, has other members of that band, but and in their heyday. When I went saw them as a kid with my mom, I think being in that crowd and reacting the way I did to the music, which I don't really remember. My mum always told me that it was. It was almost like an out of body experience, like I was like I was in church or something like I wasn't. I wasn't listening to the music in the same way that she'd seen me at home, or she she was looking left and right. I was somewhere else for the entire Yeah, in a way, in some kind of chance. And so that's when I think she realized, oh, this it grabs this kid. And then I think also going and seeing start making sense the movie by Talking Hiss was when I realized, like I wanted to get as close to because it was different with split Ins, they were right there on the stage, but seeing talking kids on that screen, and I made my mom take me to that movie two days in a row. As a young person but a little bit older that that was when I was like, oh, how do I get to them? Like they're on a big movie screen right now. How do I get to them? Like Split Ends is down the road, but Talking Heads is somewhere like theymy as well be on Mars. You know.

Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. Yeah, I love the I love the idea of first I remember that. I think the first movie I saw in theaters was Cool Runnings, which I love the incredible, such a great first experience at the theaters, and.

I was like, I don't know anyone who doesn't love that film.

I know. It was just it was such a great like first experience. And then my first album that I properly listened to. So it's weirdly I talk about this. I haven't talked about this a lot, but it makes sense talking about it with you. Like I grew up in a home where I was encouraged to learn how to play instruments, but we never listened to a lot of music.

Interesting, So it was more discipline than and enjoyment level.

Correct, it was more like an extracurricular academic activity because it would look good on my resume when I applied to a better school later on, and it really hampered my ability to love instruments. And so I grew up playing the piano. I did grade up to grade four in the piano. I did grade five theory.

I played percussion all the while not really knowing what listening to music the feeling is.

Yeah, there was no feeling. And then I turned twelve or thirteen when I kind of stopped doing that, and I was introduced to Eminem for the first time through a friends school.

So you went from studying an instrument and not really being exposed to the enjoyment of music to listening to Eminem.

Yes, literally that was it. That was exactly it.

And I know what you're eating any sugar in the house and then eventually, look, here's a sixtier chocolate diccake.

Decad and delicious and just yeah. And I remember getting from a guy at school and he had he had like the he had the Infinite album too, which was, yeah, the first one, and I remember putting it on and feeling like such a fan where in a way that I've never you know, felt again, maybe even then that first is so important. But with you, what do you think has changed about your relationship with being a fan? You said you're still a fan, but like, what was it like being a fan back then? And what is it like being a fan back now? When you're so close to the industry, You are the industry in so many ways, you define what takes off, what doesn't like you're so close to it all. What has changed in being a fan?

A lot? Nothing? I mean, you know, the simple question is very little. I mean, the distance between who I was in that concert and who I am today is very It's a very short distance. I still get the same sense of I still I can still find myself in that space where I'm lost. You know, I can still put on music and my headphones and go for a walk and end up in floods of tears quietly on my own. You know. It's it's something that is deep affects me deeply, and I haven't had to work to hold on to that. That's how I know I'm in the right place in my life. You know. In terms of the industry side of it, that's a whole other conversation. I Mean, everything's changed there, and I think finding myself in any room or in any seat, or behind any microphone, or in any conversation or in any studio, to me, was always a privilege. I didn't know how to get in those rooms. I didn't know how to do that. I didn't come from a background where the kind of music industry I wanted to move into the area I wanted to move in my life made sense. My dad is from a radio background, so okay, you can see that makes more sense. But that wasn't my intention as a kid. I didn't wake up in want to follow my father's footsteps. He knows this. I wanted to be in recording studios and make music my whole life, and I didn't know how to get there. And I didn't know what a music industry was. And I mean, there was no music industry really in New Zealand, and some might even argue that there is, but it's specific to that environment. It's not London, it's not New York, it's not Tokyo, it's not Germany wherever. So that is a journey that I can't even put into context myself. And I think you know this more than anyone, right, Like, stay in the moment and absorb the situation, learn and move forward. And I think I was doing that without him realizing it, because I couldn't have charted this path.

Well, that makes your journey even more fascinating to me, because you're right, you didn't grow up in a space that naturally lended itself to the career you have today. Do you remember if you could track back for us even before what consciously comes to mind? What was that first step to say I'm going to pursue this, Because I feel today it's really fascinating that there's even more choices. In one sense, there's even more access. But people who are listening today, even myself a few years ago, I found myself having the limiting belief and the hopelessness almost of my dreams really far away. I don't think it's possible. Those kind of things don't happen to people like me. I'm not set up to succeed.

Because I think that in that moment in time, and I've felt that many times in my life. I think that what happens is where it are most effective, when we have some kind of singularity to focus on. You know, it's like this is what I love, this is who I love this is the person I most want to have this conversation with in my life right now. This is what I need to do to be healthy. And I think when we're focused on things that are ultimately giving us purpose, we manifest without even realizing it, you know. And I think when we get into that place of hopelessness that you've been, and I've been, and others have been in an r in, it's when we split that singularity up into fifty five things, one hundred things, a thousand things, a million things. At best, they contradict each other or count each other. At worse, they actively fight for your attention, and you can't give your attention to everything. And so that's where you end up just standing still, questioning your own purpose, your own abilities, because it seems hard just to take a step forward because there's so much noise that's around you. When I've been at my most effective and best for myself is when I've been least affected by that noise and the most focused on what I know is moving me emotionally and inspirationally in my life.

Yeah.

That's I've never heard it put that way, but that resonates deeply. I remember I sat down with one of my spiritual teachers, probably when I was maybe like ten years ago, and I said, I've got all these ideas. I want to do all these things, but I don't know where to start. It was what you just described that like fragmented, distracted, yes, static, static, Yeah. And I said to him, I just I don't know where to start. And he said something beautiful to me. He said, he said, open every door that you possibly can. And then he said the doors that close, let them close, and just keep walking through the ones that remain open. That's amazing And it was the best advice I've ever got in life, Yeah, because I felt like all of us were just standing at one door or ten doors, just trying to open all of them.

You know. All my wife says to me when I get like that, she's like, pull not literally, and maybe sometimes literally, but she says, pull car over. And what she means is is that just pull the car over. Stop driving in a direction that you think you should go in, because you directionless right now and you're actually possibly driving yourself further away from where you should be. Pull the car over. Stop, let all the cars drive past you, and don't worry about where they're going. Let the traffic go past, you, don't worry about it, just to enjoy the fact that you're actually stopping. Ignore the traffic, ignore everyone else, Focus on where you want to go, Choose your direction, and focus on it. Because right now, and this is I mean, you know, when she's at her most lull, she's like, because right now you're veering all over the freeway. You're like, you have no idea where you're going, and you know it's to me that kind of it speaks a similar truth, which is we're all, in everyday life, entirely capable of just of being distracted and distracting ourselves and allowing us to ourselves to be distracted. And it's a part of life because it's noisy. It's really noisy, And especially the older you get, the more you see, the more you absorb, the more you try to own, the more you try to find yourself through the things you own. This is an awesome space. But you've got stuff in here, right at some point if you leave, you've got to figure out where this stuff goes You take it, do you leave it? These are all decisions, right, everything's a decision. And I think that you know, when we're probably most capable of making the decisions that ultimately charter a path of true holistic and spiritual and also just ambition level value is when we're focused on simplicity, simple things. Yeah, it's true, simple doors, It's true.

Yeah, And it's what I've found really attractive is a peaceful mind and an internal simplicity allows for navigation of external chaos.

It makes us more capable of moving through that thrash.

Yes, correct, Yeah, Like I've always thought about what I've tried to work on a lot, and I work on every day because I'm not there. Yeah, is to refine my internal intention to be so simple and clear that then the external complexity which naturally comes with being an entrepreneur and running a business and everything else that comes with trying to make an impact and and trying to provide for your family and the people you love. But it's like the reason for doing it is just one little dark.

Oh d, my most indecisive. I probably had a few nights drinking some wine. My work is really busy, and I'm not really seeing I'm not I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the playbook for that week. And someone can call me and ask me the most simple thing, and I can't make that decision. And that's it's because to your point, I've clouded my own ability to be decisive. And sometimes it's not it's not it's not my decisions. Sometimes it's just stuff going off around you. I Mean, the thing is as well about about trying to find that internal balance, that clarity internally is that that's where the most noise is. I mean that this all pales to that. Like, think about every experience and every memory and everything and whether it's trauma or joy that we're absorbing all the time. Like that's why I love therapy so much. And if you can do it and you can afford it, and it's something that you would are willing to try, I'm a big believer in it because it's to me, just creates space. It just helps you, like down like thirty percent of the trash and now I have space to fill it with stuff based on my learnings and what I truly know about myself that is a value to me, versus the stuff that I either inherited that I never wanted in the first place, or stuff that I thought I wanted that it's not actually good for me, Like just get rid all that, right, and it's a good, great way to clear out. And because that is to me the noisiest for me, that is way noisier than what's outside this door way noisier. So you say you're not there yet, I'm never going to get there, Jay, But I love I love the process.

Yeah, it's the pursuit. But I like the way you describe therapy as a clear out because I don't think that's how it's often always seen. And it's really interesting, right. We all know I need to clean my wardrobe out and need to get rid of some of my clothes, and it feels good when you do it, and it feels good when you do, but we don't think about our thoughts that way.

Yeah, And we are finite. We have finite space. I think we have finite ability to be able to process, certainly emotionally, and the way that we process information and how it makes us feel a lot of our feelings are wasted, are a waste, Yeah, because we get driven by ego, We get or it takes us back to a time in our life we weren't happy, or it triggers something that we're as unresolved, and our feelings then dictate our actions. But if we're not creating space for us to be able to fill ourselves with good things, then then our feelings sometimes again, our feelings just won't be They won't honor us.

I think, wow, yeah, that you've reminded me of a study that I read a while ago that said, and it may be different now because of just how fast things are changing, but it was saying that the human brain has the ability to compute like seventy four gigabytes of daya or a day, but we just filling it up with like we're easily consuming that much that isn't selected, cleared out, curated, it's just being filled up with what's coming back.

And we're always going to have to because we can't like control the fallacy, and we can't dictate how our life works in terms of who gives us what information and how we process things and who tries to you know, how we unload energy on each other, and that's just part of being a human and living in a society. But what it does allow us to do is to be conscious of that and to allow ourselves the way I always look at it as like a meter in the red right, if you look at this old kind of like I don't know if the ge gigameters whatever, whatever. You've got the needle here, and the last kind of ten percent is red. It's always red, yes, yes, yes, right, the rest of it's white. Everything's great bad, oh good bad, right, And if you haven't got the ability to be able to process it properly, then then even if you wake up in the morning and you sort of back to sort of thirty because you're restless, you've got some anxiety when you wake up, if you haven't got the space figured out the smallest thing, and you back in the red, what I try to do is have it go like that and then when it gets to about seventy, figure out how I get it back down to thirty. So if it does get in the red, I've just I've got more of an ability to process and to manage those feelings.

Yeah, yeah, definitely one of the things I met. I wanted to go back a couple of steps with something you mentioned that was beautiful where you described your trance like experience almost of being lost, and it reminded me of the visual which I think Baz Lehrman did a great job of in the New Elvis movie, like when you see.

It like the movie.

Yeah, I really like the visual storytelling of it. I thought it was and the music was spectacular. Yeah, I thought the scenes of young Elvis having those trance like experiences was really really special. And I wonder what did it feel like when maybe were you were DJing, you were creating that you saw people having that kind of experience to you. How was it like almost being on the opposite end.

Well, the reason I chose to DJA in the first place was because I think there's always been performative part of my nature that I sort of turn till my back's too strong a term. But as I found myself in the in the media side of things, and I guess connecting the artists to the fan, which I love to do, it mean, I didn't really have so much of an outlet for that until I got to radio, and then I guess that started to come out in the way I broadcast, in the way that I played records. It was very I was very sort of like and I still am, but very much during my time at the BBC, I was very active with the music. I liked to use effex and reverbs and sing along with the songs and pull them up and explode them and in them early, and I just saw them as things to kind of play with rather than just press play, sit back, think of something to say, wait for the song to end, say it. That is actually the most respectful way to treat music in the media. And my favorite DJs do that. Not all of them, but some of my favorite DJs are the ones who pull a song up and play it five times in thirty minutes and scream over it and get me excited and make me connect to the music in a different way. That's an example of the performative side of who I am. And so I started to get that outlet and radio and then and then I was like, well, you know, I miss being on stage. I missed up being in front of crowds. How would I carve up up space for myself as a DJ? And when I started to sort of carve out my idea as a DJ, I was trying to do so in a way that was built out of the kind of chaos that I love about music, the genre and indefinable genre violence of the clash, Like I don't know what they make half the time? Right the way the bomb squad made public enemy records and ice CBE records and just like whoa is that a chainsaw? Like what's going on? Like how did the young on? What do they just do? Did they stop that the way the Beastie Boys did it with pause boutique? You know, you know, And I got all my stuff, I'm going back to New York City. What the heck? I do believe I've had enough? Do do do do?

Like?

What are they dropping in? Where are they going? What's happening? Why is this happening? What's going on? Like it's just full of surprises, left turns, right turns. The whole thing is just completely predictable. And I tried to do that. So I say all that to say that I had to learn how to put people in a chance, because most of the time I think I was just hurting them. There's sensibilities at least, you know. I was just like that was just like whoa. And some kids got it and we're like this is awesome. And some kids were like, man, I just want a house mix, like you just like mix something and blend something, you know, So I mean my I mean for me, like the joy I got out when I was djaing of watching the way people reacted to music, was just realizing that in that in that moment in time, whatever else was going And I'm sure every artist would tell you this. Who gets to step on a stage and do anything in that environment knowing that in that moment in time, whatever else has happened before or they're worried about happening after, doesn't really matter that as far as being in the moment is concerned. You get to share in that with people, and you get to try to create an environment without matter. And every DJ that I've ever played with or toured with the greats of all time right through to you know, my friends, that's what really is that if you boil it down to it to its primary source, I think it's about creating a community experience that exists in the moment, that is free of the thrash of life and is really there to just inspire people to go into that space that I was in as a kid. Yeah, that and not have to socialize with people, which if you're socially anxious like me, then be a DJ. It protects you you never to speak to anyone needing again for the rest of your life. You don't want to, you know, what expects you to.

I was going to ask you that, like you you touched on like the importance of therapy and you're saying that's worked for you. What was it initially that guided you in that direction? A how did you why did you specifically choose to therapy as a modality to support you in whatever you're looking at, and what were you looking for from it?

Parenthood? You know, I became a father, and I realized in that moment that I was ill prepared to be to share my best, and so I had to do the work in order to be at my best. And I'm incredibly grateful to my wife and to my friends and my family for encouraging me to do that. At the time, I was at my lowest point, I think, and it was really hard. But in doing that work, my life just changed for the better in every way, and ultimately, you know, gave me the ability and the tools to be able to like and love myself enough to love the people that I love more than anything in the world completely and without compromise. I think if I hadn't done that work, I think I would have always either felt compromised and my ability to love others, certainly love my kids and my wife, and be loved, and I think that, you know, that is the thing that really ultimately makes me the saddest is thinking back to that alternative and how that feels for people. I think to be loved and to love completely is the purpose. I think that is it. Someone who is feeling that sense of love and commitment has to let go of us to exist, and we have to let go to move on, and somewhere in the middle, it's just about the ability to be loved and to love.

Do you think that you fell out of love with yourself or that you were never in love with yourself in the first.

Wooh, I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I was definitely loved my mom and my dad and my brother. I mean, I come from a very loving family. But I think that it was a compromised environment in terms of it was a divorced environment. And so you see sides of relationships and life and the family structure that are shocking to you as a kid, and it's hard to figure out what your identity is to yourself, let alone what you need to be for everybody else. You know. I wanted to fix it and I couldn't. I didn't have the tools. I was too young. I don't know what to do. And I guess somewhere along the line, I just just lots touch with the simple ambitions of life, which are like put you try to put yourself in an environment which is as joyful as possible, around people that you love, and just try to find as much balance as you can. And I just think, I, yeah, I don't know, man. I mean, I definitely came from a background that was it wasn't as similar to in terms of the cause and effect as billions of people. I mean, relationships start, relationships end. I love my parents. In the end, it was the right decision for them. It was very tough for me as a kid at that moment in time, and I think what I had to do was take responsibility for that, rather than either ignore it or project some kind of really pointless blame on a scenario that was completely out of my control. It's like, okay, And so the only way I could really sort of the only point in my life I could do that was when I realized that I had something that was more important than the blame or more important than the ignoring, and that was being a dad. It's like, all right, like I need to take responsibility for how I'm processing this or not. Otherwise this beautiful future is I'm not going to get the most out of it, and neither are they.

What kind of dad do you want to be in? Why?

I want to be a father that and hope I am a father that provides our kids with a sense of unconditional love, A very trusting father who really leans into the principles that I hold dear, which are you know, just love and support and honesty, and I you know, I just I want our kids to know that, and they do that. I'm happy if they're happy, and I'm I want them to work hard, and I want them to be focused on that. And if they're lucky enough to find something they love, which both of them seem to have done, I want them to know that there's no substitute for the graft and for the work, and you know, for the dedication and being respectful and of your opportunities and making the most of them and keeping a keen, very sharp radar for when the door opens ever so slightly. Know how to walk in and know how to stay. But equally, I just want them to be happy, and I want to be someone who they feel, like I said, they feel unconditionally understood.

That takes a lot of work on your part.

Especially considering that I didn't even understand myself. So but I'm very lucky. I mean, if we're going to go there, we'll just go there. Like I you know, I have this incredible partner for life and my wife who has been I don't know how to tell you, man, I mean, she's just incredible and.

Sounds it for sure. Yeah, I mean you get it, even through the advice that you said to you, but you get it.

But you get it. You get it. You find someone in your life that makes you better, and then you start to figure out how you can make them better because it can't go one way. And then you've got it. Then you've got something special.

Yeah, my wife is exposed to me flaws that I would have hidden for so long from the world because I could. And then all of a sudden, in a very non judgmental and non critical way, someone helps you realize not even it's so subconscious as well, it's not even like a teacher. It's not like having a coach or a guide or someone who's telling you or showing you. It's just someone who effortlessly reveals to you parts of yourself that you know they're the only one that sees it well.

Love is an unspoken language a lot time. I mean that's why families, if you have a very loving unit around you, you were able to communicate without saying anything. And I think in a different way when you when you develop your own family, your own relationships that you know ultimately grow with you over the course of your life. It becomes more of an individual experience that builds from within that out. The language changes again, but it's still an unspoken thing. And how did you meet? Oh? Wow? I mean Cara and I met when we were kids, and you know, I always say it was love of f a sight for me. Just took you like ten years to figure it out. But we weren't we went together for that time. We just new Zealand small and we knew each other in certain circles and we were just kids growing up and running around. And then I moved to London and she followed about six to eight months after that, just on her own and just looked me up because we knew each other from back back in the day and back home, and she didn't really know anyone out there. And she's like, hey, I'm out in London if you want to get a beer, And it's a true story. We went for a beer at a pub which I think it's called the Famous Cock. I mean there's a lot of cocks in London that serve beer. Yes, right, there's famous cocks, and there's roosters and cocks, and there's like, you know, the Thames on Henley Cock and there's lots of cocks. So we went to one of those cocks, I think on Regent Street and it was me and I hope she wasn't gonna be telling you this, but I'm sure she wouldn't because it's a great footnote in our story. It was me and a good friend of ours who still is a good friend of ours called Who's and Kat Deely, who I knew from MTV, who was just getting her break in MTV and doing some great stuff as even as a young person on TV, and so we all went for a pint and that's how reconnected with her, and then from there our story started to unfold and would have to drink wine to tell her tell you the rest of that, but you know it was just long and brilliant and you know, unique, like everyone's story. But yeah, I mean, I've known who's I mean, I wish joke I had to move halfway around the world to marry someone I'd known most of my life from home.

When you've known someone for that long, I always wonder how you allow that growth on both sides, because I guess when you've known someone for that long, you've you've been three different people or at least more of who you are, and she's becoming more of who she really is. Like, how have you continued because you said you've been over together for over two decades.

Or yeah, nearly twenty four years?

We yeah, married for yeah twenty four years? Been married, you said exactly, which is a really long time. Congratulations? Like how was that conscious and intentional? Or you've both just been.

Flowing stay together that long?

To stay together? But more importantly, it seems, and it sounds from what I'm hearing, that you've kind of grown together during that time. How the growth?

I think you can stay together unless you grow together, Otherwise you grow apart. Well, you know, we got we got married quickly. You know, we were together and it was like, oh, this is meant to be. And then for one reason or another, our marriage was really dictated by other things. It was like a visa issues and she'll have to go home, and because you know we would, we didn't. We didn't have a I could stay in London, she couldn't. And so you know, it really came down to like, look, if there's a future for this, then this has to be the only way forward. And so we got married and it was in a registry office and with two witnesses, you know, and it was short of telling our parents, which we did about two weeks beforehand. I mean, it would have been and we would have eloped. I mean, it was it was so fast, and you know, I think both of us felt like it was forever. But I think it's kind of too simplistic to say that we were dead, you know. I think we were just trying to keep it going.

Yeah.

I think we were just like, look, this is really great. We don't know what the future holds, but if you have to leave and I stay, it's going to make it that much harder for us to find out and in a way that works for the kind of people that we are. I mean, not to speak for her, I'm very conscious not to do that because she's her own person, But you know, I think I think both of us just liked finding out and we're still finding out, and I think that's what's cool about it is that we didn't go and do it with some kind of major pressure, with no disrespect. I've been some incredible weddings, and I think you should be entitled to celebrate your union however you want. But for us not feeling there were one hundred and fifty pairs of eyes on us, you know, like this is for life everybody, Like, I mean, it just it just suited us to just get going, just get to work. Like we just work at one day and we're like, let's just get to work, and we have and we've been working at it ever since. And it takes work. But as someone said to me once, you know, even even the days when it seems like it's really hard work, the next day, like anything in life, the hard work pays off.

Yeah, absolutely so. Just so you know, we had four hundred people our wedding, and I'll tell you why because in an Indian household, your parents are obliged to invite every person that's ever invited them to their kids wedding.

So you could literally you could start the ball rolling early and just invite everybody, whether you know them or not, and then just be like, I am set for the rest of my life. I have so many great experiences.

I'm going to hell.

Literally and then we get better. Right. So, literally, my parents and my life have a list of people that have to be invited to the wedding because been to their kids' weddings, love that, and so half the wedding list is like we don't know, Like my wife still talks about like walking around our reception alone. Mom's like, I have no idea who this person is. So and that's small for an Indian wedding. Like I have friends who had like five hundred and one thousand people at their wedding. We were somewhat given it away.

It's not dissimilar because it's not like you're assigning like some kind of emotional contract for these people you know.

No, no, no, it's not.

It just comes down to it just comes down to the union, to the to the team, and it's like it either works for it doesn't. I don't hold my parents. I don't have any ill will against toward my parents or hold them responsible for the end of their marriage. It just it ceased to exist, and it happens all the time. I've got good friends going through it right now.

Same. Yeah.

I just think for us, we try to keep things really simple. We make each other laugh like a lot, and if it's not the same thing, she gives that to me like she dishes out a lot, you know, like you're a moron kind of stuff, you know, and I am. So it's easy. It's an easy joke. And then I think beyond that, we like each other's company, and we know that we're not always going to agree, but we know that it's not gonna it's not going to get in between the simple principles that keep us together. She's just smarter, better, way hard you know. It's just just I definitely married that.

It's beautiful. You talked about having social anxiety and you know, being a DJA and talking about how we were joking about how it's easier to get away with that. But obviously in your career there's been so many opportunities, as you said, with your children. You want them to be able to walk through the door and stay there, and that requires one to kind of negotiate through that social anxiety. Sometimes. I'm sure you've had to walk into the rooms and pitch yourself and hold your own and go and then stand your ground and whatever it may be. Talk to lawyers, and you know, there's so much to it when you're in and I feel like there's so many people who are listening and watching where social anxiety is at a point where it cripples them, It stops them from walking into rooms. Starting that conversation, what was what were you saying to yourself? What were you working on in order to move through some of those uncomfortable experiences.

Case by case. You know, my friend was having a function the other night, beautiful function, a total reason to celebrate, and I nearly was like, I can't go. There wasn't any valid reason for me to not go. In my mind from a cerebral kind of oh that makes sense. None of it made sense. And then there are times when you know I'm skipping out the door. It just depends, I mean for me in terms of like breaking it up into two things, because you make you made some good points, like in terms of like the social side of it. I try to be kind to myself. I try to allow myself the space to make a decision that's as pressure free as possible, and then more often than not, I find good, valid reasons to continue forward. I feel that if I apply too much pressure on myself, most of it's unreal, and then I'll end up just not going anyway, and then I'll feel bad because the unreal will evaporate and I realized that I made a decision that wasn't based in the real. So I try to I try to I know myself enough to get a heait of that and just be like, you don't have to do anything, don't go. And once I just tell myself that, I'm like, oh, well, there's a couple of good reasons to go, you know, and I start to bring myself forward on that. In terms of the work side of it and getting in the room. I don't want to tell you. I mean a few times when i've I know that I've had to step up and do something that's ultimately helped change the shape of my journey and therefore my family's journey or whatever. That's when you start getting into the intangible bit for me, into the sort of the magic of the moment and what makes performers, athletes, surgeons. I mean, I'm going lofty, but anybody, I mean, heroes, people do out of body things. It's nowhere near on the same level. And I'm not trying to put like getting in a room and pitching a bit of shit at the same thing, but it exists in the same space of like, I don't quite know why what's motivating this extra gear, but I'm using it, and I think true greatness comes from people who know how to access it more consciously than I do at this point in my life. You know, you're talking about you know, the Michael Jordan's of this world, who can, the Beyonces, the sword who are like I can. You know, they don't shy away from the occasion. They level up, they see it, they know what it is, they understand. And I'm just talking about the arts now. I respectfu to everybody else, like, because if I start, you know, going and apologizing for every other outlet or occupation or thing in life that's more important than the arts to everyone else, then I'm just going to end up in the like the future position, and this podcast is going to be over, so I'm just focusing.

Based on your background.

I know how it goes. I know how it goes. It's more important things in life than music and the arts. I get it, and I respect it, but for me, that's the world I'm in, so I'm just going to focus on that. So in the performing arts, you know, I watch I watch people all the time step up further than they have before, and I just think it's something in us that is there, and sometimes the occasion requires it, and sometimes you meet someone who has found a way to harness it. And that is when you start dealing with like the greats, like the people who just they see it, they manifest it, it happens, but then they recognize that it's happening, and then they recognize the feeling, and then they remember that feeling, and then they practice that feeling and then they get the ball in with point three seconds to go every time, and that's like, that's when you're dealing with just another level. I did not there, but I've had a few moments in my life when that gear is kicked in and I love it. I mean, you know, the job I'm in now I mean I nearly got on a plane and flew home because I just was like, I don't know where this is going, and I'm uhappy, I don't think. I don't feel like I can do this. And I had a big meeting the next day, and when the next day, I had a great meeting and it changed everything. So who knows, man, I mean, it just comes out of nowhere. But I'm more interested in the people who just somehow know how to like kick that shit into action.

Yeah, because they exist, Yeah, absolutely, they exist. Yeah. There's a beautiful book called Flow. Don't know if you've ever come across it. I forget the author's name. It's like me Hi. I think it's a name. If I mess it up, everyone, please do not be mad at me. I think it's cheek sent me high. I think that's how it said, me hichick sent me high. The books called flow, And that's what you're describing, this flow state that people experience where you see freestylers, rappers, musicians, you know, athletes, artists, where time stops but it's really fast and no one knows what's happening. Like it almost feels like time slows down and speeds up at the same time, I've.

Had a couple of conversations in that state, like on the record, like like interview situations where it's like there's been such a nice mood in the room, and I feel that it's such a strong like to and fro going on and the Chris and the answer and then the question of the answer and it's just been and I'm like wow, and then someone's like, Okay, time it's been going for like two hours. I'm like it was like that. Yeah, I mean, you must have done it so lovely. It's really cool when it happens like that too, because it's human experience for somebody else, so it feels really nice. I also, you know, my social anxiety. I think I think it's it's it's unique for everybody. I mean, I have no problem walking in a room and being around people, But there's a difference between being present and fitting in or playing a role that you think is going to serve a purpose for that environment or that party or whatever, and just being able to be comfortable in yourself. That's what I'm talking about. Like I'm not always and very often entirely comfortable. I just I just figured out how to maintain, but there's always something in me that's I felt that, like my skin's a little bit too tight, or my brain's not really focused on what someone's asking me. And I, yes, I guess that's what I'm that's my form of social anxiety.

Yeah, and I think I find that most people at events, especially in the entertainment and the arts, feel that way. I don't know many people who don't feel.

That way or well these that's good to hear, definitely.

Yeah, whether it's at an award show or whether it's out of red carpet or whenever I speak to people behind the scenes, that's the number one emotion that people are experiencing, and everyone's feeling it in a different way.

What do you think that is?

I think it's because the way events are organized, they're not crafted for community and connection. Yeah, so the challenge is that the way it's been built is not set up for people to come in and feel. So I went to one place that was I went to can Lions last week. I'd never been to the Lines Festival before. It was my first time there Bindacan, and it was crafted for community, Like I felt like you could walk into any space you connect with people, you could hang out with, people, you bumped into, people walking in and out of stuff. No one had an ego where people were like, you know, on a high horse.

Or maybe that's part of an evolutionary state. I mean, we were talking about seventy five years of that first. That's what I'm saying, And maybe we need to actually just start looking at every single micro experience rather than like we're all going to evolve, like something's gonna happen, We're all going to evolve. It's like maybe we are, and maybe it is just like right down to the smallest thing, like an event like that, we're being able to walk in there and for you to feel connected to people and like you came away with something that was meaningful, not just valuable. Maybe that's that's going to inspire people to do to do it in multiple different places. I mean I would like that. I've gotten bitter at just maintaining.

Yeah, like when.

You're younger, it's like, oh my gosh, everything risks on this night, and then after a while you're like, can we go?

You know, that's exactly what it is. You're spot on, That's exactly what it is like when you first I remember that when I first moved to LA, I went somewhere it was like, oh my god, if I don't make this move right now at the end of my career, and then like years later you're like, actually, it didn't affect it.

If someone asked a friend of mine who was working with at the time, someone in the industry was like, is that a friend of success when I first got to l because I wasn't in sixty five parties a night running around doing it everything, And then.

Yeah, yeah, And my goal has become very clearly that my intention is always like, can I find one person tonight who I can bear my soul? You have one person that I can fully be myself, because then that that event, I've fully been myself.

So how do you know who that person is? I know it can we changes, but is there a constant to that.

You can get a sense pretty quick obviously, and like we're saying, it's respective to what you personally are interested in. So for me, I'm I'm hoping that I can have a conversation like I'm having with you today, which is meaningful, it's purposeful, it's vulnerable, it's it's open, it's thoughtful, it's about growth. It's about being better.

But when when I walked in the house today and we met for the first time and we sort of have each other's gaze for sick and it was like, all right, cool, we've got this moment here, Like it's more than just like transactional, Like all right, if we're going to do this, let's do this and then's start and see where this relationship goes in the future. Right, it's not just gonna be like good to MILLI podcast next. Yeah, Like is that, like, is there a technique to how you do how you find people?

I wouldn't say it's a technique. I think it's more of an intuition, Like I do believe it's energetic as opposed to like ask these three questions you like. I don't think I have it like a formula like that, But I feel like you can usually tell by someone's language, body language, and emotional languages to whether you're on the same frequency or vibration. I find over time, I've been able to sense that, and I've also realized where your ego wants to force it with someone because there's personal gain or.

That's big self away.

Yeah, you can tell when it's like Oh, there actually isn't a frequency, but I'm pretending there is or hoping there is, or trying to manufacture it because I think this person can do something for me, or I'm useful to them, or I feel significant because I'm being useful to them. Yeah.

I think also realizing that you don't want to be that to someone, but also someone's trying to be that to you.

Correct.

It's really important for anybody going into any area of life, and it's something that I think people should try to develop that radar from a young age because it'll save you so much time and energy. Yeah. Yeah, And also it's fine to acknowledge that you're doing that to me and I'm doing that to you because we're in a trade. That's totally fine. Yes, great work, great things come out of that, sure. But friendship is different. Like I'm really realizing how important my friendships are and I'm and there are multiple types of friendships. There are people I love to just hang out with and sometimes some of them I like to talk industry with the music with, and they're not the people I'm going to call up and have a heart to heart with about someone else. And there are others that you know, I know I can call up when I'm at a low point or they can call me, and there is that. I think it's just understanding that, you know, we all serve a purpose and if you're in someone's life, you've got a purpose. Just understand try to understand what their purpose is. That's what being thoughtful with your thoughtfulness is to me. Like, maybe I'm not the person to pick the phone up and check on someone's well being because that's not the kind of friend I am to that person. But they have those friends. Doesn't mean I'm not their friend, correct.

Yeah. Yeah, we have different relationships with different people in our life that that serve us in different ways, and we serve in different ways, and knowing how you do that for someone is is so important.

It's really important. And yeah, that's that's a big self awareness lesson and I think you know, it took me a while to figure that out. I was always trying to like be all things to everyone thing. Yeah, for a lot of my life, trying to fix everything, be all things, be this, be that, be funny, be caring this, like sometimes just be funny or not just try.

That's a great boy. I love that. Yeah, that's that's actually really powerful to think that, Like, I think you're so right. We want to be all of ourselves to everyone.

Yeah, well, because we're covering all the bases.

Yeah, covering all the bases. Yeah, and we there's that subtle ego in like we want to be considered funny and this and smart and this.

So how do you manage your ego in a situation like this where you where you? I mean, you said at the very beginning, you have the number one health podcast in the world. Congratulations by the way, Like that's that's a real thing to have a number one of anything, but to have a number one in an area we're adding so much value and support to people. But the very nature of a number one anything is really that's just like you know, Bourbon for the ego, right, It's like number one is like it's very nature is connected to an ego experience. How do you continue to build around success but manage what's your relationship like with your ego in this environment?

Yeah, it's a I would say it's a constant conversation on a daily basis between my conscious self and my ego self. I think that it's something I have to be vigilant of on a daily basis because of the world we live in and the environment we're in. Just someone that I mentor messaged me this morning and he's kind of having a real moment in his career and things are going well, and he was saying the same thing to me, be goes Jah. I don't think this is healthy for me, Like I'm worried about my ego, And I was like, this is amazing the fact that you're even aware and you're conscious and you're because ninety nine percent of the time you have the success and then it falls apart and then you think about your ego. And so for me, there are a few things that I do. The first thing is that I always look at how I compare to the work I really want to do. So the impact I really want to make in the world is not just downloads or views or whatever else or numbers. It's actually I'm trying to create a journey for everyone that connects with my work, from entertainment through to education through to personal enlightenment in how they define that term, and to me, it's like I'm trying to create that journey by building steps that I know from the journey that I've been on, the journey that I'm still on, and the journey that I've learned from the great and trying to put those building blocks in place for people. And my goal is unless I'm helping people walk that journey, the number is is insignificant.

But the beautiful thing is because by the way, I'm not anti ego, like eco serves an important rule great commisation. You know, there's ego and it, and those two things need to be managed in a way that with like I said, a sense of self awareness and understanding of what is going to press your buttons, both positive and negative. But what I'm interested in is, like, it's interesting because because you're building this thing internally, from within your own vision, your own what inspires you, It's come from this tiny little fire that you're building into this beautiful thing that helps people. But you can't help more people without your ego serving a purpose a role.

Yes, absolutely, And so I think engaging it and being aware of it the only two options you have, because I think that when you try and ignore that. There were probably even times in my life where I tried to suppress the desire to do and make an impact because you think it's ego not realizing that then it's just brewing and now you're envious of everyone else.

So that's why the we're humility is so interesting to me, right, because we kick around humility all the time like it's a really important positive part of our makeup, and it is. It can be. There's a time to be humble, and there's no universally sort of positive humility. There's no universally negative ego complexities across both of them. But it's interesting, isn't it. Like you can find yourself If you deny your ability and what you love and your talent and your ambition too much, you find yourself in a false state of humility, and you can't help the people to help. So it's ultimately turning your back on what you should be doing.

Yeah, And to me, ego when it gets dangerous is when you feel better or worse than others. And so I feel like there's a difference between doing what you think you're meant to do and doing it well then thinking you do it better. Like I am friends with so many people in this space who do are who are number one in their fields, but and even in a similar field in a different way, Like, I know a phenomenal set of scientists in this space who are doing incredible health and wellness work and a number one in the way they do it. But it's like I have my own version and I have my own way and method, and that's what I'm excited and have an ego about. I guess is the idea that I'm doing what I'm doing, but it's not a It doesn't make me better than someone or worse than someone.

And I think so interesting, isn't though, Because growing up, like in music, there is an innate competitiveness of wanting to be the best, and sports you won't want I won't find a coach that will look you in the eye and tell you that that attitude is going to get you to be the best in the world. Right, So it's so interesting how we relate to this thing that I think we know very little about.

Yeah, which which is why I think some of the best athletes, like I know that Christiano Ronaldo, who's the biggest football and soccer star in the world for anyone, who I mean him and Messy.

We just did a little rolling stones beetles, Yeah, exactly.

The world is divided. My TikTok feeds me Christiana, we're a complete human being. And now we're in the US, and so Messi. Everyone's excited because Messi is coming to man and he's awesome. And my point being that whenever he does an interview, I always see him say I have to think I'm the best in the world, like I have to think that way, is what he'll say. And I think that's really interesting language because he's not saying I am, or I definitely am, saying I have to think that way in order to perform at my best.

So he's he's he's dividing it into a mentality versus a reality. Correct.

Yeah, that's beautifully said. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's what's so fascinating that if you sat down with Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, who I've had the pleasure of interviewing, or today Lebron, it's like, I'm sure they have to feel that way, but it's whether like if they were, you know, all things said and done behind closed doors. You know, I'm sure they have an opinion on stuff that you can say when you're retired too, that you couldn't say when you were.

Playing are you a manifesto?

I would honestly say I've been an accidental, unintentional manifesto. So I don't believe that I ever set out to say, Okay, I believe in manifestation. I know how it works, and I'm going to do it. I don't think I ever had that. I've just had things happen in my life where I can track back when I first visualized it in my mind and then it came to fruition. But I never intended for that to happen.

And so when that happened, did you ever have the intention to try to kind of do it more or master it or anything else, or were you just like I love the curiosity that I like to make it happen.

I love the curiosity and I love the magic of it because that also makes me realize that it's beyond me. And I like that humility of that.

Okay, so ther of it is, that's cool.

That surrender of it that I don't. I love the idea that it's happening, and it's happened in my life so subconsciously that it also makes me recognize that there is more than.

Me to say, and I'm more like you than I am. Like some of the other people who I know, who you know, are continually searching for that feeling that they can and with some success.

Again Oh yeah, yeah. I know people who I consider to manipulate material energy like they have that they have that ability, and I don't Ryan Reynolds.

Ryan Reynolds is a master manifesto. I'm so sorry, but you cannot take Rixham and do that unless you know how to bend energy.

Yeah, absolutely, that's the point.

Like I sell billion dollar telecom company.

Oh yeah, that mint.

Yeah.

And I don't think there's a right or wrong again, like I don't think someone who focuses on manifesting in there in the sense that the way it's been packaged or marketed is a bad thing. It's just not the way I.

Can I ask you another question, cool, I ask you a question.

This is a real conversation.

I want to I want to talk to you about ambition, Like what your relationship is with your ambition, because you have a big you have You've already built something massive and you want to continue to reach more people. So how do you manage your ambition into something that is balanced with your life.

I think it's evolved over time. So I've always honestly said that when I first started, I was working sixteen to eighteen hour days and seven days a week, but I never missed meditating and that was always my grounding practice. I was like, I'm going to meditate and I'm going to work my socks off, because I kind of had that moment of or at least what I've heard when you were saying that about your kids. Like I remember the first time I felt the door open, and I was just like I never believe this door would ever open, Like I have to be so grateful and responsible for this.

And that was to meditation.

That was no, no, no, that was oh no. Spiritually that had happened. I mean like externally with building a platform.

God, I got it, Like when you realize like, wow, I have a shot.

I have an opportunity to do this in a like I was happy and content, and anyone who knows me the back then would verify this, like I was happy and content doing what I do today for the ten people that showed up every week for ten years, and I was so happy. I didn't feel like, oh there's not enough people or like oh my god, I'm not like I just felt grateful and happy that even ten people would show up, and I loved it. And then at one point I did feel I was like, I feel this message matters. The people that are coming are having great success from it. I think it should reach more people, so I should attempt to. And when I attempted and I had that first glimpse, then I was like, wow, I'm so grateful and I should be responsible for this, and I shouldn't take this. I should take this as a gift and I should give my heart and soul to it, not just live off this momentary you know success. So for me, that's to me, the graft was me expressing my gratitude back to the universe to say, I see that you've given literal me a shot, and I feel my only way of expressing my thanks and a preciation back to you for this gift is to show you that I'm willing to work.

To make the most of it.

Correct. So that was like a couple of years where I did that. As soon as I started doing that and things started to grow externally, I started to realize, all right, this is not sustainable, like on an energy level, and so then I cut back. So then I was like, I'm only going to work five days a week, so I took my weekends back. I was still working evenings. Now I'm at a point where I took my weekends and my evenings.

Because because that to me is like, that's that's the crucial moment where perhaps some like maturity and some life and some distance between youthful ambition, the desire that I've got to go and take every opportunity I can versus where you were at that moment in your life really served you. Yes, because that's the moment when I think it can consume people and relationships, Yeah, get hurt and or get torched, and we chase something so far down the road that we forget where we wanted to go in the first place.

Totally.

So yeah, that's a really great point.

And I think for me it.

Was like that was a turning point for you, that mument.

Yeah, And at the beginning, it was just like, all right, all that ass is this and my wife, like those are the only two things that mattered. I don't really have time for anything more than that. And now I'm at a point where working backwards, where now I only work, I have the privilege of only working nine am to six pm and don't work evenings all weekends, and now I can take care of my wife and my friends. And because you're in the era of no yeah, And that's and I think there was an era of complete yes. And there has to be and there's there's an it has to be. There has to be, and I don't want to lie about not like perfect balance.

You can't get to know without figuring out like where your line is. And you can't figure that unless you push yourself. And that's what work is. That's what the working era is like, when you just grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, and and but yeah, I'm I'm a fan of balance. I was talking to someone about this the other day, about ambition, because I have friends of mine who are never going to start and I love them for that, and they just to them, to them, it's all out there, and why would they ever not grab every opportunity or explore the next thing. And no number is too big and no opportunity is too far away. And I love it and I've definitely been that in my own way. But I'm reaching a point in my life which isn't the same, I'm going to turn down opportunities or I'm wanting. I'm not whining that I'm not in a semi retirement mode. I want to do my best work over the next ten years, but I want to do it in a way that is joyful and to your point, really make gratitude like the number one driving force. I think to be truly grateful, you need to allow yourself space to be grateful. I think we kick the word gratitude around a lot. I know I've been definitely the kind of person who's like, done one hundred things in a day and then when I've had two minutes the end of the day gone, I'm really grateful, thank you so much for And it's like it's not a checklist item, Like you've got to feel it. And I think to do that, and I guess that's what meditation. I've never been able to find the space to meditate and calm my mind downe enough. I know I will, I just can't force it.

Yeah, you haven't naturally zen energy there.

That's cool.

Yeah, it's like I would have thought you were a meditator, which is quite nice. Yeah, which is yeah, you have that the I always said, like I mean, and Kobe Bryant did meditate, but he was the most like he had the most gravity around him of any person I've ever met, Like he was just like time, like things stood still when he spoke, and there was that. But he did meditate. But I feel like you have a real like there's a there's a piece around you, even though it's not you know, if it's not from that which is really beautiful and then of hard piece, yeah, hard earned piece. Yeah, but I think it's true. Like I think also, you know, it's what we're saying about the yes and no, there's also a different time in life for sometimes it's scale, sometimes it's speed, Sometimes it's strategies. Sometimes it's sincerity, sometimes it's you know, like it's I think what you realize is that if you just go speed speed speeds like that doesn't actually make any sense.

Well, you missed your opportunities more than you actually grab them. I think.

Yeah, you think about like being a Formula one racer, it's not speed at every turn that helps them master the track. Speed's a massive part of it, but.

Only when you need to go fast.

Only when you need to go fast, like round the band. If you just go fast because you're like, no, no, no, I just got to beat the other guy. You could potentially turn over and throw the you know, the race.

That's why I love boxing so much. Like I've just started to like like do boxing training and stuff. It's my wife that's the most fun. It's the greatest exercise of it. And I've struggled with exercise. My whole life fits and starts like everybody else. No pun, well pun very much intended, but yeah, this is a whole other level. I love it, right, And the reason I love it is because, like my mom has dementia, and she's in the lot of stages of dementia I feel, and it's it's it's been really tough to witness, but I've also watched her sort of want to hold onto memories and the whole cognitive awareness thing has become very present for me. And what I love about boxing is that it's really it's it's one hundred percent mind and body, and it's about strategy and it's about people just think you just bash stuff. It's so not the most tiring thing I do when I'm working out. Boxing is the inside work. I'm not actually punching anything I'm just trying to push this guy off, Like that's the most exhausting thing out of any of it, Like that punching the mets is like just rhythm. That's the driving fast correct.

Yeah, And that's what I mean. I think we just live in one mode of like speed or slow. We think we think those are the only two things to play with. Yeah, and when you box or if you drive a car or whatever, maybe you're still going, oh wait, there's there's so many other dials to play with here. Yeah, So I think I'm trying to you know, I've I've realized that, and I also realized that it's the same as a hike, Like getting up the hill is different to staying at the top and getting down again and going deep into the valley. Like, yeah, it requires a different skill set. And so I try, and you know, I try and live a very disciplined life health wise in order to be able to be high performing. And I value all of that, like the high performance world, like I value all the time.

You have cheat days, though, do your life have a chance to slip out of routine always?

I mean you have to, Like this morning was one of those morning.

I said, well, you just got back off tour for a start, so you're all over the show.

No, no, no, no, I wasn't. That's the thing I allow myself, like small windows and then I go back. But like this week, I haven't missed a single workout and this morning, last night I told I told my friends that I was going to work out with today. I go, guys, I'm sleeping in tomorrow and burnt, I'm not going to be that. I'm tired. So I woke up an hour and a half later then I usually wake up today and it was the best thing I ever did, and I loved it. Do you sleep well I sleep? Yeah, that's a big thing for me. I actually read that's been something you've had to work through, right, Like.

Dude, I'm not a good sleeper and I but you know what's crazy. And I was telling a friend of mine who's in a band about this this morning because she was like, I'm just trying to kind of come down off tour. And I said, listen, man, let me give you a bit of advice. And I'm never's going to work for you, but I'm telling you, like I read somewhere something ages ago where Rick Ruben said that he goes out every morning when he wakes up and exposes himself to natural light. Yes, first thing he does is expose himself to natural light. And then I someone else said it, and someone else said it, and I was like, all right, this is like too many things pointing in this direction. So and I haven't had a good night sleep in a long time, and so I started going outside and it was so strange. It was such an alien experience for me to stand out in my yard at like six thirty in the morning, like in my boxer shorts, like like, I feel like a weirdo. This is really weird. And then the second day we felt less weird, and the third day felt less weird, and I started putting shorts on because I was like, you know, I'm going to enjoy this. And I have been sleeping like like I wake up and my head is just like heavy on the pillow and I'm just rested. Like that works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's circadian rhythms thing. Yes, yeah, I mean yeah, it's crazy, like yeah.

Yeah, I know they're all ancient practices, though I know you do yoga too, And so the ancient yoga arsen is called the suria Namashkar. So what that means is sun salutations. And so the ancient practice was the first thing you do in the morning is you salute the sun, right, which was that bathing and gazing and paying respects to the sun. Yeah, and that was what was happening, Like your circadian rhythm was kicking off. Yeah, now you're on that and we sit.

There and we read that and we think, oh, it's it's only a worship to the sun. It's all worship based. But actually it can be worship based and it can also be lifestyle related exactly. They were figuring out how to get a good night's sleep exactly.

Yeah, they were figuring out how to get vitality and energy as well. And that's what they were paying gratitude to the sun for. And your day started with gratitude, but for everything, not just for being the sun, but for the light, the heat, the warmth, I mean, for everything that it provides. Right.

So we have all this literature and all these opportunities, like even this conversation to be able to just dive into all of this, and there'll be the people who roll their eyes and they're probably not listening or watching, and they'll be the people who are open and absorbing and ready to sort of try and make positive changes and help others further down the line. But where do you think we're going wrong? Like if the ancient species were saluting this, increasing their ability to be able to manifest good things, understood the power of gratitude, understood the power of rest, understood what they needed in order to maintain that. This is thousands of years ago. Why do you think we seem to be getting either further away from that or trying to get back to that, but we haven't actually gone on from that.

Yeah, I mean it's a it's a big question. And one place I really experienced it beautifully was when I was in Hawaii and every morning which.

Island we were on, the big Island in Kawai is like.

I've heard I need to go.

To Ever ever been to a place where the energy, the lay lines and the oxygen coming up from the ocean. Yeah, this is amazing.

I need to go next year, and you'll have to give me all the recommendations.

I've got no recommended. It's not the kind of place the beautiful thing is. It's just pure local, Like it's not like go here, go here, just rent, just get a really awesome little airbing b near the ocean. That's my recommendation, and just barefooted to the coffee store every day. I love it anyway, No, no, no, no.

And so I remember in Hawaii, we'd get like a kayak every morning. One of their forget the official name of this big kayak, they have a name for it, jumped in. We'd go out. They'd pay their respects to the sun. They had their own offerings, which I loved learning about dead offer it to the water.

Like.

So, what I find that where we've gone wrong is that we've unlearned and reconditioned to a new way of working so hard and so strong and for so long that undoing that and resetting our habits to be healthy for us is the biggest challenge. So discipline is ninety nine percent of the challenge. And I think the problem is that because if you think about school, which was the only thing that had the opportunity to discipline us, and parenting, those are probably the only two things that you.

Have earlier introduction to it.

Your introduction to it as school discipline, you always knew what you were going to do, You always knew what the next grade was, You knew what the next class was, it was all mapped out for you. You never actually had to discipline yourself. And so when runs out at age eighteen or twenty one, whenever you finish school, you now are left to your own devices to figure out discipline. Yeah, and you've never actually been taught how to build a habit, how to break a habit, how to grow discipline, how to end discipline, right, you just and that's really what's missing. Like, my wife has single handedly coached me to better eating habits than anyone ever has in my life. And I had to live with her every single day, you know, for the past seven years for her to do that for me, And I'm like, well, if I didn't live with her, I don't think I would be able to do these health changes, Like to me eating pizza burgers, you know, a sprite or a seven up like that was my like yeah, every other day.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden, I married my wife and she's just like you know, sugar, yeah, and you know like and I'm like, well, wait a minute. It took that much coaching and guidance and steer, So I don't think anyone's at fault. I think it's more that society set us up to not know how to The biggest skill you can learn is how to build a habit and how to break a habit.

Yeah. Yeah, because because one of the best things that were cap of doing what we tend to use against ourselves as the ability to absorb and translate absolutely, and it's like, all right, if you can manipulate that, if you know how to put things in because we're really complex but also quite simple totally. Everything's a routine, right, everything's a pattern. It takes one person to do something cool, and we're quite a sink. We live in a singularity pretty quickly. It's just like you know what I mean, it's just like, oh, that's cool, let's all do that. Yeah right, we all do it. Yeah, And so yeah, it's interesting, isn't it. Like I think you're right, we allow ourselves and to your point about discipline, we need to have the confidence in our own abilities and in our own determination to be disciplined enough to do what's right for ourselves.

Yeah right, yeah.

Because otherwise I think we are susceptible to the shiny lights.

Yeah, of course. And I think that discipline comes ultimately through going what is truly valuable to me. It goes back to what you were saying that that singularity of not having this fragmented approach to I want to be this and I want to be this for that person. I want to do that. You know, it's it's well what do I what do I care about? You used to overwork too, right, Like that was a big, big thing for you. Big Did it lead to did you ever get to that brink of burnout and pain?

And that's what Yes, absolutely, man, I had physical pain for like five years, chronic pain. Like I wouldn't say it was chronic, it was a consistent there were consistent pains were in the body, arm, finger, neck, lower back, hip, Wow. A lot, yeah, a lot of pressure points and a lot of it really was well, there's a couple of things going on there. There was some there was some some stuff I had to process from one side of the brain to the other that I hadn't done, so it was stuck in my body. So once I actually started to work that through in therapy and you did that all through therapy, that h yeah, yeah, one yeah. My guy put me to sleep once he basically broke it down for me, I was like for twenty minutes, woke up, and three weeks later things started to dissipate. But also I was I was absorbing. I was absorbing a lot into my body through the of the work and the stress and over work, because I didn't have anywhere else to put it, and so my body was trying to protect me. It was like, well, we'll store it. But after a while that body gets filled up and then it starts to ache and hurt, and the pain starts to happen. And I really genuinely thought, I'm just going to live with these aches. This will be it for the rest of my life. Right, as long as it doesn't kill me, I can live with it. Why would you want to live with pain? So I'm so glad that I was able to kind of start to unlock that's a verbal release.

All the therapy you did was traditional therapy or there It was.

More even just the concept that actually in my mind, in my brain, I have been storing it in an area where my brain is telling me to put it all in here, And what I need to do is to create space in here to put it somewhere, which has infinitely more ability to be able to process and distribute and remove and to release. So I needed to get it over there. And as simplistic as that sounds, it just worked for me. I mean, it was a concept and perhaps it's rooted in truth, and perhaps it's not that. I'm sure there'd be people who are saying we're talking about other people who'd be like, ah, that's exactly right. But you know, the way that it was it was it was explained to me, was that I had been storing it in my brain because I didn't have the ability to be able to deal with it emotionally, and so I didn't want to. And so once I figured out that I didn't have anything to be afraid of, just talking through, get it out, release it, let it go, it started to transfer and the pain started to disappear.

That's the first time I've heard about that therapy. That's cool.

But I was working through it like working around the clock, because again, it's a great distraction, isn't it. You know, getting up and going to work is a great way to spend your time avoiding things that you don't really want to have to deal with, and it's also more productive. So the harder you work, the more you achieve. The more you achieve, the more you tell yourselff you're okay, the more you tell you stuff you're okay, not dealing with absolutely, So it's like, okay, you know, and then.

The opposite is also true, which is why back to your argument of balance, Like the opposite also true where you if you're too idle and there's no direction and there's no pursuit and there's no work.

And for sure, there's an infinite amount of ways to do it. I'm just that's how I did it. And you know, there's a difference between working hard and working and working hard right, Like for me, it's like I love to work and I love to work hard, but I don't have to work hard to be working well, right, I can do it in a way that is like you know, efficient and good for my balance. Becuse me good for my balance. My decision making got better, my ability to delegate got better. I became less stressed out about the things that I didn't have any reason and or right to be stressed out about. I stopped feeling I needed to respond to every single email and every single thing, and I started to trust the process. And I don't know, you have to ask my colleagues, but I feel like I'm happier and better at what I do. So yeah, I'm a big believer in just because you put in the hours and doesn't mean you're actually getting the most out of it.

Absolutely. Absolutely, You've sat with so many of the you know, most iconic eyes of our time and this generation, and you know you're a brilliant interviewer. You ask question questions, you listen so effectively, like it's fun to watch, like genuinely fun to watch. Who do you feel was like wise beyond their years or like an old soul, but because most of them are young, like a lot of a lot of them are very young. Who did you find was kind of like?

You know, I find the conversations that leave me most inspired and feeling like something in my life has changed and I've learned something new. Tend to come from the people who reached a point in their life where they're not trying to sell something anymore and they don't have to do this. It's there's some value in the conversation and perhaps they're looking for learning themselves. The truth is, more often than not, I find elements of that in everybody because I'm not trying to squeeze juice out of the lemon. I'm genuinely not trying to sell anything at this point in my life. I love music, so it's easy for me to talk about it and to say it's great and to back and forth about it. But I don't feel any need and I don't feel there's any requirement for me at this point in my life to try to sell anything when I go into the conversation and I don't I was gonna ask you a question because no one immediately sprang to mind, because I think I'm not existing in a hierarchy anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful answer.

I'm not thinking like this person surprised me, or this person was not charming, or this person was wise beyond the years. If you'd ask me that five years ago, I could have given you an answer like that.

That's a beautiful answer. I love that.

But I'm trying to go into every conversation, whether it's Little Yachty or Neil Young or Billie Eilish or you know whatever. I'm just trying to go into a conversation from a position just like us, of what is the most interesting and human experience that I can have, and I remove as much of the cell as I can, and I try to get into a place with people where like I don't really have questions anymore, and I don't really go in with a high with a framework anymore. I just try to feel the music, retain how it makes me feel, and just get to that as much of that feeling as I can in the conversation. And so everyone is surprising and everyone catches me off guard with their observations because I'm not going in with any prior observations or any kind of premeditated framework. I'm not coming and going I think I know what you'll like. And I will say that the one only time I've ever had a proper long form conversation with Justin Bieber change. That's what changed it for me, because I thought I was going to get a great conversation focused on an album that served the purpose that the label and the management and the artist wanted it to serve, and serve the purpose that Apple Music wanted it to serve, and I would get some thing out of it too, And that conversation became something very different, very quickly, and I realized that he wasn't interested really in selling anything either on that day. And that was the moment that I learned how to listen and stopped trying to control the narrative and gave myself the space to go with it and not panic. It's just a moment. It's just people. Yeah, stay present, listen, observe, and try and figure it out. So from that point forward, everybody that I've spoken to, really I get there with everyone in some way, shape or for Yeah, if that makes sense.

Makes so much sense, it makes beyond sense.

I love it. Every time i'd have a conversation with anyone before that, I would come in with so many different metrics of you know, questions and orders and this and that and expectations and whatnot. And you know, if you ever get a chance to sit, if you haven't already opposite Neil Young, you cannot go into it with that. He has no interest. It's like this is all that matters. And if you think you're going to be able to sort of carve out some shape with him, then he's just gonna be like, look, man, like, it's not what I'm here for. I'm not interested in it. So I really like this.

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. Thank you for saying that.

I don't know what to do with the old method anymore. I used to have one. I just don't know what to do with it. Yeah, and even now and then I form myself falling in. I found myself falling into it because I'm worried and I can't stick to it. Everything you need to know is in the answer, right, every question you need.

You have a structure when you're untrained, and then when you're trained, it's spontaneous. Spontaneous.

It's like I just wasn't listening, Jay, I was just going in and trying to figure it all out before it even happened, which is very in line with who I was and who I've been.

Trained too, I think sometimes right, yeah.

I'm just terrified. I mean a very anxious person. I got an idea. You know, my therapist always says, you know, anxiety is based on not knowing the outcome, right, You're scared of what the outcome is going to be, and so you know, I need to prepare for every outcome. And at the end of the day, what I really need to do is just start and listen and it will be what it will be.

Then this has been such a special, honest urban conversation. I've loved every bit of it, and saying we end every on purpose interview with a fast five. So these are questions we do ask everyone, okay, and every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum. Okay, so it's short answers. So then load these your fast five.

The first can they change every time?

No? Okay, they stay. They four out of five stay exactly the same.

Okay, hit me. Okay.

So the first question, which we've asked everyone has ever been in the show, is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Be yourself because everyone else has taken nice.

Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Eat that it's not that hot?

All right?

Question Number ones at me hot ones, call me. My kids won't ever respit me until I'm on that show.

I love that question Number three, what is the one thing that if you'd want your children to remember every day? What would it be?

You are loved? And you can love love.

That question of before, what's something you're trying to unlearn right now?

That I don't have to wash my hands every time I touch a surface and I don't have to check the taps. I'm always trying to unlearn my OCD compulsions.

How does that affect life?

Is that it's because being my life for so long that I think the most frustrating thing is I'm just I'm used to it. That's what frustrates me the most. If I ever stop and take a step back and realize and actually try to have it step back for myself and realize what I'm doing or what it must look like, not that I'm ashamed of it or that I worry about what the people think of it, just for my own sense of awareness. I get very frustrated and really try to tell myself, like, if you don't, I don't do this routine. The world is not going to end. And I have varying degrees of success. That's hard, but I'm always trying to unlearn it.

Fifth and final question that we ask every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

That we would allow ourselves the privilege of listening to each other before we act, that we would do our best to understand there are many points of view, and that level of understanding, and ultimately that knowledge would allow us to come together to fix things and not keep breaking things.

So needed Zaying low everyone, if you've been listening or watching, wherever you are, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, driving, whether you're at home, whether you're at work, wherever you are, thank you so much for listening and tuning in. I hope that you'll tag me and Zaying with the things that you love, the things you're going to talk about this week because of this podcast, the things you're going to share with your friends and your family that resonated strongly with you. Please tag us both on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, on any platform you use, sharing your favorite clips. I love seeing what connects with you all, and I hope this conversation is connected with you all as it has with me. So thank you for listening and saying. Thank you for your generous time and energy and presence. And I'm really grateful that we got to listen and connect with each other today. So thank you so much.

It's the same joy, Thank you, thank you.

If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C section scarf with all the stretch marks.

Now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked.

But day three, when I did it, I was like, you know what, her thighs are?

Cute?

Okay, this is something that I've been waiting for and you are absolutely going to love it. My wife, Rody's book, Joyful, is launching on February twenty seventh. I am so excited for her first book ever to be in your hands and be in your home and fill it with joy. Go to j O y f U l L book dot com to pre order now for an exclusive video and a daily wellness guide made by Radi herself. Again. That's j O y f U l L book dot com, Joyful book dot com. Check it out, pre order it right now, get your free video and wellness guide. You're gonna love it.

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

My name is Jay Shetty, and my purpose is to make wisdom go viral. I’m fortunate to have fascinating  
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