What usually holds you back from starting a conversation?
Can you remember a time you avoided someone out of fear of saying the wrong thing?
Jay sits down with behavioral researcher and bestselling author Vanessa Van Edwards for a powerful conversation that blends science, honesty, and so many surprising moments. Vanessa, who refers to herself as a “recovering awkward person,” shares how her biggest social struggles became the driving force behind her mission to crack the code on human connection.
Together, Jay and Vanessa dive into the fascinating world of charisma, exploring the 97 cues, from eye contact to tone of voice, that quietly shape how we’re seen and understood. Vanessa breaks down why so many of us feel overlooked or underestimated—and introduces “signal amplification bias,” a concept that explains why the signals you think you’re sending might not be landing the way you expect. Vanessa shows us how confidence isn’t always something you’re born with but something you can build, with intention and awareness.
The conversation goes even deeper as they unpack the tricky balance between warmth and competence, especially for women in the workplace, and how vulnerability isn’t a weakness, but often your greatest strength. They explore how to create those magic “me too” moments that form instant connections, spot the hidden red flags in communication, and let go of the need to be liked by everyone in order to be truly seen by the right people.
In this interview, you'll learn:
How to Make a Great First Impression Without Saying a Word
How to Break the Ice with a Simple “Hey”
How to Balance Warmth and Competence in Any Conversation
How to Create Connection Using “Me Too” Moments
How to Exit a Conversation Gracefully (Without Offending Anyone)
How to Spot a Liar Using Body Language and Micro-Expressions
How to Ask Better Questions That Spark Real Conversations
How to Recognize the Difference Between Charisma and Manipulation
Whether you struggle with social anxiety, want to level up your leadership presence, or are just tired of surface-level small talk, this episode is packed with practical tools and uplifting wisdom to help you connect with more authenticity and power.
With Love and Gratitude,
Jay Shetty
Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.
Join Jay for his first ever, On Purpose Live Tour! Tickets are on sale now. Hope to see you there!
What We Discuss:
00:00 Intro
00:51 From Awkward to Empowered: Overcoming Social Anxiety
02:43 How Do You Really Want People to See You?
06:44 Why Aren’t Your First Impressions Landing?
10:01 Why They’re Not Getting Your Signals (And What to Do About It)
13:33 Want to Be More Attractive? Try Being More Available
15:40 One Simple “Hey” That Can Spark a New Connection
19:16 Your Vibe Teaches People How to Treat You
22:06 Speak with Power: Unlock Your Full Vocal Power
23:47 3 Conversation Starters That Actually Work
29:49 Making Friends Doesn’t Have to Be Hard
31:17 Why Compliments Alone Don’t Build Connection
33:30 Break the Ice Without Sounding Like Everyone Else
38:36 Stop Trying to Be Interesting, Do This Instead
40:48 The Art of a Smooth and Respectful Exit
44:32 Use These Nonverbal Cues to Steer the Conversation
47:41 Spot Inauthentic Behavior Before It Costs You
54:28 Why People-Pleasing Feels Safer But Actually Holds You Back
57:48 How to Tell If Someone’s Lying (Without Saying a Word)
01:00:04 When Narcissists Feel Like the Most Charismatic People
01:03:46 Want to Really Get to Know Someone? Take a Road Trip
01:04:45 How Dopamine Makes You More Memorable
01:08:23 Every Answer Can Be a Gateway to Connection
01:10:51 How Asking Better Questions Inspires Growth
01:13:10 Discover Your Social Battery: Introvert, Extrovert, or Ambivert?
01:15:10 You Might Be an Ambivert and That’s a Superpower
01:19:07 The Two Ways Friendships Evolve Over Time
01:22:30 Choose Friends Who Inspire Awe
01:25:20 The Double Standard Faced by Highly Competent Women
01:33:09 Before You Make That Connection, Ask Yourself This
01:34:34 Life’s Too Short for Shallow Connections, Find Your People
01:36:29 Vanessa on Final Five
Episode Resources:
Vanessa Van Edwards | Website
Vanessa Van Edwards | Instagram
Vanessa Van Edwards | X
Vanessa Van Edwards | YouTube
Vanessa Van Edwards | TikTok
Vanessa Van Edwards | Facebook
Vanessa Van Edwards | LinkedIn
Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth, spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a meet and greet with photos. Tickets are on sale now. Head to Jsheddy, dop me Forward slash Tour and get yours today. How do you let someone know that they should make a move without giving any And that's the Van Edwards best selling author and Researcheressmon Edwards.
We decide how confident someone is within the first two hundred milliseconds of hearing the speak. The best way to show availability is one word and it sounds like this.
Tell me why compliments don't work? How do we tell the difference between charisma and narcissism?
The way you see the world changes the world.
What are the negative cues we miss because we're infatuated or attractive as hell?
If you want to be treated with more respect, you have to make sure It's.
The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Sheety Jay Shettyly shet Hey everyone, Welcome back to on Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. You know that one of my biggest focuses and services is introducing you to experts who are obsessed and addicted to their field. People who are powerhouses, who deeply and intimately understand human behavior so they can help you improve yours and spots sign of the people around you. Today's guest is going to do just that. I want to welcome to on Purpose for the first time ever, but not the last time. Vanessa van Edwards a multi time best selling author, renowned behavioral researcher on professional communication and leadership. More than fifty million people have seen Vanessa's talks on YouTube and how viral ted talk as well. Vanessa's work has been featured in national and international media including Entrepreneur Magazine, CNN, CBS, and many more. Vanessa's latest book, Cues Mastered The Secret Language of Charismatic Communication was an instant bestseller and I highly recommend it. Please welcome to On Purpose, Vanessa van Edwards. Vanessa, it's so great to have you here. I'm looking forward to this, Yes, waiting for this moment. Me too. And from the moment you walked in, I was like, this person is so charismatic, magnetic, says great energy and I want to start off, Vanessa, just to dive straight in.
Let's do it.
If someone was not only to listen, but to apply the insights you're about to share today, what would they overcome.
I'm a recovering awkward person and I have found that through this work, and that is my mission today with you, that you can overcome awkwardness, doubt, and most importantly, the feeling of being underestimated.
I think that that's really.
What I'm trying to get at with my work is if you feel that you have a lot of potential, or you have this desire to connect, but you don't know how, and people are underestimating your charisma, your ideas, your smarts, who you are. My goal is to make it so you no longer feel underestimated.
Oh I love that that's so strong.
Those are my people.
That's so strong, and I resonate with it so strongly because I'm sure, just like you, I meet so many people who feel they have the next big idea, who feel that they have something to share, something to give, something to teach, some to pass on, but they don't feel confident. They're lacking that feeling of courage. They're lacking that feeling of I don't know how to present my idea. I don't know how to share it. And this is what we're going to do today.
And the problem is like I also had these ideas, but I not only didn't have confidence, I felt out of control. I think this is an aspect of communication we don't talk about enough. I think the side door into confidence because we all say I wish I felt more confident, But the side door is thinking, Okay, I have an idea, what's the blueprint that I need from conversations, from charisma to be able to get where I want? How can I take control of my connections, my relationship, my communication, so I know if I want to show up as friendly or as likable or as competent, I know exactly what to do with my body, my voice, my words to show.
Up in that way.
So for me, the only way I was able to overcome awkwardness was taking control of the signals I'm sending and being able to take control of the kinds of relationships and conversations I had.
What I really appreciate about what you're saying. You just named three things you said. If I want to come across as friendly, likable, and competent. What's really fascinating is I think most of us don't even know we want to come across that way.
This is true. The step one of control is how do you want people to see you? And here's what's really important. The cues that you send to others make people think about you a certain way. But the cues you send to others also change how others treat you. So if you want to be treated with more respect, you have to make sure it starts with you that you're sending the cues needed to show others how they should treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with friendliness or warmth or vulnerability, how do you signal to others? I want you to be open and raw and real with me. We can take control of those signals to tell others here's how I want to be treated. And so step one is how do you want people to see you? It's a ill game, okay.
So in your mind, when people first meet you, what word do you think they think? Like, what's a word they use to describe you?
Ooh, that's so good.
What do you think it is?
I would hope it is is warm?
Warm? Okay.
So I've asked this to thousands of people and the words are you know, all over the place. By the way, a lot of folks have negative words, and that's okay. Like, for example, my word used to be awkward, right, like people would say that I knew you know when you show up. And I'm a social overthinker, so like I would get in my head about things.
I would overthink things I knew. I could see in their face.
That I was coming across as awkward and I was creating more awkwardness. So my original word for first impression was awkward, and that's what got me into this work. So a lot of the words. I have two kind of groups of people. I have folks like you who are like.
Warm, competent, charismatic, confident. I love it. I love it.
But a lot of folks and if this is you, I'm with you, I'm gonna help. It could be quiet, it could be awkward, it could be scared, nervous. There's a lot of words like that. Okay, so start there. Then the question is what do you want people to think when they first meet you. What's the word that you wish? Maybe even two or three words. How do you want to come across? So would yours ideal be warm? And do you have another one that you wish?
I'd probably add loving.
Loving, love it.
Okay, so think of three words that you wish to convey. Now we have to work backwards. So step two is, okay, how do we convey warmth and competence and loving or confidence? That's where the real magic happens. And there are ninety seven cues. I've identified ninety seven keys, ninety seven cues. The very beginning of my career, I realize that humans were sending these social signals back and forth. You're nodding, your hand, gesture, your feet, your voice, power, and I just missed them all. I have an affliction. I tend to misinterpret neutral faces as negative. I think we all a lot of people tell a lot of people. It's the basis of resting bothered face.
This is the basis.
There's actually science behind RBF, and it's that most people misidentify neutral expressions as negative. And by the way, interesting thing they found in the research with this was if you are an angrier person, if you to get angry more, you see more neutral faces as angry.
Ooh or I didn't even think about this.
So in a way, the way you see the world changes the world. Right, Like, if you were an angry person and you're misinterpreting neutral faces as angry and then you reply back with anger or offensiveness or defensiveness, you make them angry.
Absolutely, And so this.
Is like this weird c cycle.
Okay, so if there's ninety seven different cues, I started categorizing them because I was like, I don't I'm misinterpreting.
And I would say to my.
Husband, I think she's mad at me, and he'd be like, why I go to a party like everyone's mad at me.
He'd be like, I didn't see that at all.
And that's when I started to realize, Okay, what are the actual negative faces? So I discovered, you know, the research on micro expressions, the seven micro expressions, what we can talk about and then I started to categorize these patterns just for me, and then I realized there was all these other awkward people who also wanted to be able to read these social signals.
And so I think that.
When you've picked your word, starting to make your recipe of charisma.
Yeah, and what I love about this is this is all how happening before you get to the date, before you get to the event, before you get to the interview. This is where it has to start. And I think so many of us turn up and naturally, by the way, me included. I think the challenge I have is people may assume that I'm always confident and have it all together. If I don't prepare for an event, I can turn up and feel exactly the same way because I walk in and I'm rushed there and I'm thinking, gosh, what am I going to say? Like why am I here again? And why is that person looking at me with that way? And were they right?
Okay, so this is good.
Let's add a step to our exercise, which is I'm just thinking about this, now, what's your bad day first impression word?
My bad day first impression word would be absent, like I'm.
Just like muting.
Yeah, Like, I'm just not quite there. I'm probably looking through someone. I'm probably not listening as well as I usually do because I'm kind of just I'm lost. I'm a bit lost and absent.
Yeah, Okay, So everyone should think about their first impression word, their current first impression word, and their ideal why. What are the triggers that trigger you to be in that bad space and what are the triggers that make you feel in that good space. So one of the very first steps is Okay, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, or an ambivert, and there is that sort of in between, who triggers you to be your best self?
You know how?
Like around certain people, you're like, ah, I'm my funniest I'm my most charismatic. Great, those are the people who bring out the good first impression. You want to be around those people as much as possible. Who are the people who bring out the bad first impression?
Right?
Like?
Who are the people who make you feel the way I would describe as like tight inside, Like that's how I would describe it, rigid, Like that's what I do. I get very rigid when I'm afraid or nervous. Who makes you feel angry, Who makes you feel rigid, who makes you feel afraid? Who makes you shut down? You know, awkwardness dresses up in a lot of different ways. Some people, their awkwardness is shutting down, right, They mute, they go quiet, they collapse in on themselves, they take up less.
Space from body language perspective.
But other people get bigger, they become dramatic, they name drop, they talk too loud, they overtalk. Like, that's also a way that are awkward to stress up. So what are your triggers that make you do that? The people, but also the places. Yes, right, Like I love a one on one conversation, So I'm I was more excited for this conversation than I would be. Like if you were to say, Vanessa, come over to my house for a happy hour.
Which never happens in my house because I'm not coming.
I can't come, or if I come, I would be like agonizing the whole time, like a rooftop bar, you know, loud night club, just like not my space.
Like, I just triggered all the bad stuff in me.
So I think that like knowing who and what is going to also set you up for success into getting to the better taking control, Right, if you can control the people in the places where you want to show up your best self, that's like step number one.
That's the groundwork.
And I think that that's hard shifting that moving that forward when you have to start going to places where you don't know anyone. Right, And there were two areas I already wanted to focus on with you today. One was looking at the dating landscape, and we'll start there. And the second I want to focus on is work. Yeah, because I feel like those are the two areas where your skills and your habits and your tools thrive in a way that you know people are going to change their lives. We were talking about this idea that let's say you're at a workout class. Let's say you're at a social space. Maybe it is a rooftop bar, maybe it is a club. Yes, you want to signal to someone to make a move. You want to let them know that you find them attractive, that you'd like them to do something. But you want to be subtle. You don't want to give it away. How do you let someone know that they should make a move without giving it away?
Okay, I'm going to give you news that you're probably not going to like, but it's so important. It's a phenomenon called signal amplification bias. What this is, it's very well studied that we tend to think we are over obvious with our cues. So if you're in a bar, they literally studied singles in a like bar nightclub set, women and men who think they are being obvious with their flirtation cues. The other person has no idea.
Okay, that's so good.
They even counted the number of flirtation signals. This was incredible research. They observed singles mingling, and they counted each person's flirtatious signals towards other people in the room. They found in ten minutes, how many signals do you think it took for a woman to show a man she was interested? How many in ten minutes? How many signals did you have to send when it actually worked? When it actually worked.
Now that you've given me some sort of I'm gonna go thirty twenty nine, oh okay, cool.
That's it. But do you know how many signals that is.
Innut A lot of signals that is that is pretty constant. And if you didn't tell me, I probably would have guessed three, right, it was only because you gave me a sense that there was more. I probably would have said three seven.
That is what women think is it was needed. I sent three flirty glances and he just didn't come over. He's not interested, No, he didn't see him, or he doubted himself, or he was like, was that a trick of my eye? It took twenty nine signals in ten minutes to get approached. So the other person went, oh, she's interested, just interested. That was before the even the conversation started. So what are the flirty glances of availability? And this is what's most important is in the same group of studies, they found that attractive women, the most attractive women, who are rated on their attractiveness got approached less than unattractive women who.
Didn't signal enough.
Fascinating.
So if you're an attractive woman and you don't signal enough, you won't be approached.
Do you have to approach more? Based on how objectively attractive you are?
You have to be available more. So what they found and this is so it's ridiculous that we're rating on attractiveness, but it helps us understand that something that I think we use attractiveness as an excuse I'm not pretty enough or I'm not this enough. No, Actually, some unattractive women whose signal availability God approached more wow. And so availability actually makes you more attractive. When you think about your hair, your outfit, how you look, how you you smell, all those things are great, but they will not work if you do not know the body language signals of availability, and you have to be super clear with them. So the very first one are flirty glances are yeah, I'm gonna demo it for you. Okay, So flirty glances are typically they little gaze patterns.
Is we sweep the room with our eyes, then we see someone we like.
We oh yeah, nice little side glands.
Yeah, like very brief.
It's a look.
It's a look back but then look back. Yeah, and it's a side look or a down and up look. The down and up look works really well because you're looking up through your lashes.
That's a very I think Marilyn Monroe.
So if you want to look at the classic example of this every good photo of Marilyn Monroe, she has her chin tilted down and she's looking up through her eyes. That is a look that we just like we just like it, that's why we like it. So it's glancing around the room and then eye contact away, eye contact away, then it's little smiles.
So look and little smile.
And by the way, remember it took twenty nine of these, so we got to get really comfortable with trying.
And the nice thing is there's no pressure.
If he doesn't return the glance, he doesn't reorthin the glans right, So eye contact smiles. Self touch is also considered a flirty glance. So like if I play with my hair or I play with my dress, that's a way of signaling our hair health. From from a evolutionary perspective, it's like, look, how healthy I am my healthy long hair. I think it's one of the reasons why we tend to like long hair. We'll also when they're flirting, they'll touch their neck, their lips, or their chin. This actually releases pheromones. So the reason why some women will touch their neck or touch their lips is because they're actually trying to release their scent. And scent is very very important. It's important in dating, but it's also important in friendships. For example, it's a little bit off the side of dating but I just want to explain why smell is so important. I just read this study and I was like, what. They had women wear white T shirts with no deodorant, no nothing, so just their natural smell for twenty four hours. They took these T shirts and they had other women smell these T shirts and rate the women on if they liked the smell. Okay, imagine your opening as the thought bag and You're smelling study. I would have loved it. Okay, I would have loved it. Sign me up for the researchers. I'm there. So they had them smell the T shirts and they had them rate them on how much they liked the smell. Then they had all the women interact in person. They didn't know who's who the smell they liked the best predicted who they liked the best in person, so they actually found their people. There is something to it. So when you're self touching like that, it's because we're trying to release this natural smell of like I'm going to probably click with you. That's why if you smell good and good is subjective, like That's why I think why sometimes you're like, oh, we're just clicking.
We like each other's smell.
So so being available also like releasing pheromone self touch. And then this one is not from the research, but I'm gonna really encourage you to try it. I think the best way to show availability is one word, and it sounds like this, Hey, just okay, you walk to the bathroom and you walk to the bar, you walk by them, Hey, just like that.
Because look, by the way, this is for both men and women, okay, because life is too short to not hay, right, and there's no pressure.
If you walk by someone in the gym, right and you're like hey, even if they have their air pods in, if they like you, they're gonna be like, hey, right.
Does it matter the tone of voice, because you say it matters Hey, it's not like that's pretty good? Okay, all right, okay, so I'll do.
See men men do good with a downward inflection, So like that down reflection is good. So if it goes good, the guy is gonna be like hey. If he's not into it, he's gonna.
Be like hey, yeah, right.
No problem, right, like cool, Hey, So it's like the most low pressure way when you're in the grocery store, when even by the way, if someone has airpots on there, it's still gonna see you go. They're going to take out their heir find and they're gonna be like, hey, So here's the difference, right, So I am using the lowest end of my natural tone. This is especially important for women, but everyone. Research finds that we decide how confident someone is within the first two hundred milliseconds of hearing them speak. Two hundred milliseconds. That means the most important word you can say really is hey.
That's it.
You've just signaled your confidence. Your confidence, not confidence, it's specifically confidence. Okay, so what does that mean? We are listening for relaxation and breath in the vocal cords. So right now I'm working really hard to use the lowest end of my natural voice because I know that people are listening and I want to keep them relaxed. When I get nervous, I tend to go a little higher in my vocal tone. I might get a little bit more vocal fry, and I might sound a little bit more like this. Now, if I were to do the entire interview in this tone of voice, it would drive you crazy.
It's infectious. We catch it.
We don't like to be around people or we could catch their anxiety. We don't want to catster anxiety. They've even found that we match the voice resonance of the most important person in the room. So when they tested people, they found that they un subconsciously their resonance matched whoever's most important person room their own resonance.
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And this is why we don't have enough cups.
This is the reason. Is the way were saying, yeah, h what do we do when you're like, when you're feeling that like attraction, maybe you've even built up to it. You've been going to class every day for thirty days and this guy's turning up three times. You're trying to send the queue.
Yes, okay, so luckily one is. Now that you know it, it's going to be very easy for you to hear yourself. Do it so at home if you wouldn't mind trying this with me. I want you to hear the highest end of your range versus the lowest end of your range. Everyone has a natural range, So first, let's start with the highest. So take a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath. Hello, Hello. That's our natural highest end of our range. I never want you to sound like that. I never sound like yeah, right, maybe your dog. I see people go.
Hello, baby, Actually you're right to my niece and nephew. May they look at me like stuff? Talking to me like that?
Babies and dogs, totally fine.
Babies, dogs, that's it, because you're signaling tightness, high anxiety, and we don't want that. And by the way, this happens to everyone. We hold our breath as we're answering the phone. Hello, You've just given away all your confidence. Okay, so that's the highest. Let's try the lowest. So take a couple of deep breaths, relax your vocal cords. Relax your shoulders, relax your jaw, relax your mouth, and then I want you to say hello on the outbreath.
It's gonna sound like this, Hello, Hello. That's the lowest end of your range.
What happens here is when we take in breath and we speak on the outbreath, it forces our vocal cords to relax and it puts us on our lower range. So here's the difference. Here's how I want you to say hello. Let's to the phone first. So instead of Hello, I want you to go Hello. Totally different the second one. Right, So here's the bad one, Hello, that's too high, versus on the outbreath.
Hello.
It's still me, but I sound totally different. You would treat me differently based on those two hellos. I started off by saying, your cues change how people treat you. If you speak with confidence, people are going to treat you with more respect, and so it is critical we speak that lower tone. So when I was like hey, I didn't.
Go hey, are I'm so good?
So a nice low hay for both men and women. This works? And can we just hey everyone?
Yeah? Yeah, I like that.
Let's just do like.
Life is too short to not hay a person you're like, I like their vibe. Yeah, right, Like, let's just hey everyone, and if you see me out on an airport, you just ab I'll laugh.
Yeah, I love. Oh that's good. I like that. I really like that because I think a lot of people listening right now they might be thinking, but I want to be accepted for who I am. What's the difference between who we are and how we choose to present ourselves? Because I think people get confused. They go, oh, but I am that kind of person who's nervous and anxious and everything, But that's not who they are.
I don't believe in fake it till you make it. It's not a concept.
I've ever Yeah, me neither resonated with.
And so notice how I didn't say I want you to be like Elizabeth Holmes and go, hey, I can't even do it. How did she do it? She was so like she faked that low tone. No, I wanted you to find the lowest end of your natural tone. First is I don't believe and take it to you make it. Second is, I want you to sound like your most confident self. So if for you that is, hey, cool, girl cool. I'm for it, right, like I will. If that is you and that's how you go, I will take it. So I want you to feel like you. But I also want you to find your resonance point. It's called a maximum resonance point. That's speaking with. This is for both dating and work. That's speaking with this part of your voice that is open and full of power and volume and space. And don't we all want to operate that way? Like I think everyone is more themselves when they have space in their bodies, when they're taking up their space, when they have breath, and that translates to everything. Yeah, it translates to my face. It makes my face more open, It makes my job more relaxed, it makes my shoulders more relaxed. So what I'm kind of hoping is we're finding that part of you that's like ooh resonance.
Yes, Like that's where presence comes from.
Yeah, that's a great answer. And what's really good about it is also that if that person says hey, back, you're now not at this crazy level of nervousness and anxiety where you can't now you're in shock, and now you don't even have to respond. And then that ruins it. We were talking about one of my friends who's a comedian called Jared Freedi as a podcast called You Up, and there was an episode where he was talking about sometimes it's hard to spark up a conversation with someone at a class, and he was saying, it's good to just go out to someone and say something like tough class, right, like you know whatever, maybe like something to find some mutual ground before you hit it off. And I think even that saying that in this tone could help.
Okay, So I love this tip. So you say hey and it's like hey, hey, cool, then you want to use it again. I like a blueprint. I need specific groundwork. I don't like to guess. So here's your next step is a context cueue. So a context cue is when you use a conversation charter. That's something that you both share. If you don't know someone, you don't know what you share. So the one thing you can share is the context you're in.
Right.
So that could be how do you know the host? If you're at a party? Right, it could be how do you like the food? How do you like your wine? Oh, that coffee looks great? Wow, this is a tough class right, So it's something in context because actually that's a secret me too moment. So this is the next effect. So we're fighting and dating signal amplification, bias. More signals are better. You are not being obvious, right, you think you're being obvious, you're not. It takes twenty nine signals. You can count them in your head if you want. Okay, So that's the first thing we're fighting. Once we've managed that and we're really clear, the second thing we're trying to meet is a psychological effect called the similarity attraction effect. What this is is that we like people who have similar values and motivations as us. What's important about this is every time we have a me too moment like oh we have what we have that, it builds like a little string between us. Like I literally envision when I'm in conversation, like we're handing each other threads.
I call it thread theory, Like we're.
Handing each other threads, and the more threads that are back and forth, the more connected we are. Like that that's the visual I use. So what is the very first question I said to you when I met you outside? Was you know, I think we have some friends in common? Because I knew that that was a thread that we could be like, yes, we both love those people, and that made it just really easy. I didn't say like, how's the weather. I didn't do that, right, So, whatever you can do to create as many me too moments as possible. That could be raving about a mutual friend, that could be raving about how great this class is. That could be oh, the wine is so delicious or the wine is terrible, right like the other one. So all your entire goal in this part of the conversation is me too moments, and your question should be geared towards that, because here's where awkwardness happens. You're in a conversation and you have no goal. You're like kind of like what do you do? Where are you from? You know, and it's like these socially scripted dead end conversation starters. So instead I want your goal to be I want to them to say me too, or I want to say too. That's it, and it's very low pressure because all you're doing and then your questions have intention, right, Like if everything is on purpose, if everything is intention, then our questions are searching for similarities. And this is the last step, and this is for dating, for friendship, even a little bit for work relationships as well. The last step is can you find authentic reasons to like them? And I mean aggressively like them. I think that awkwardness the reason I was so awkward for so long, as I was asking the wrong questions and I didn't know what to listen for. The last the study completely changed my life, changed the way I interact. I was never a cool kid. I was never popular, and I believe it.
That's true. It's true.
I was like, I was like a triple major in college because I was just like, what can I do to distruct myself? Like I ran for student council because it was the only position that was unopposed anyway, Yeah, it.
Was really cool.
So I found this study that looked at the cool kids in high school and they examined thousands of kids across a variety of high schools, across variety of grades, looking for patterns why are some kids more popular than others?
And the hypothesis was maybe.
They're more athletic, maybe they're smarter, maybe they're more attractive, maybe they're more extroverted, maybe they were funnier.
Right, those were all the things.
Yeah, I would think of right, there were popular kids who were those things. But the only commonality across all the grades and all the schools was that the most liked kids had the longest list of people that they liked. The most liked kids had the longest list of people that they liked, meaning they weren't going around all day trying to be funny, trying to be cool. They were going around trying to like as many people as possible.
No way. One of the.
Variables was to everyone had to make a list of kids they liked, and the most popular kids had the longest lists, meaning they were constantly thinking I like that about you, I like that about you.
This was like relief for.
Me because it meant I don't have to show up as impressive or funny or extroverted or be good at sports, cause I'm not. All I have to do is aggressively like people. So if you want to be attractive, if you want to create bonds friend wise romantic wise, what I want you to be doing is you're asking these questions, looking for me toos, and then you're thinking, how can I like this person? More like, what could I ask? What could I find out that I can authentically be like I like you and then saying it like I cannot tell you my best friendships have started when I don't play it cool.
I do not believe in playing it cool. That doesn't work. I literally am like, I like you, will you be my friend?
Yea?
And like I have a six and a half year old and a two and a half year old daughter, and I watched them on the playground and it's funny.
They're they're like this.
They literally will sit in the sandbox. My daughter was like, do you like trucks? And the boy was like I like trucks and she was like I like tr I was like me too. Moment, good job, Claire. And then she was like you want to be my friend? And he was like yeah, that's it. They're friends.
I was like, this is it. We actually knew how to do this as kids. It's what we used to do and we've kind of, you know, over too cool for it.
I like that you did that and said that because I do the same thing. So no, literally it's exactly the same. Yeah, I know, but like you, that never happened, and I love that because to me, it's I have so many friends in La that when I met them first time, I said, I think we'd be great friends and i'd love I'd love to see if that's true. And like now seven years later, whenever we're out and everyone, how did you to me? And then my friends will always try and be poliable like oh yeah, we just met through and I'm like, no, no, no, let me tell the story. I said that I liked you and I wanted to be your friend, and I love living that way because I think it makes life so clear, It makes life so easy. Everyone knows where everyone's intentions are. And if someone is too cool for me or doesn't like that at least I know.
Also like I'm I'm allergic to it. Yeah, like I don't do well with two cool people. Like if you can't even show me your liking or you're kind of wanting to put a wall up, we're not going to be good friends. Because I love level three conversations, I like vulnerability, I like oversharing, So that's like a test.
Also is like I think we would be good friends.
I like you, and if they're like h, I'm like cool, Like that's cool, Like I would rather take the shot than miss it. Yeah, and so I think, like, if you're listening, I think it's like, let's if you like someone like show it, search for those me two moments, and then if you like them, well, first of all, search for reasons to like them.
Then if you like them, say it.
That right there is like the best way to try to find your people.
That's going to find them.
The me too goal is of real switch because I think a lot of us when you approach someone, if you don't ask about the weather, you usually try and compliment someone, and that doesn't work. Vanessa, tell me why compliments don't work.
We all want to be complimented, but it makes us feel very uncomfortab right, Like there's this weird compliment economics where it's like, please compliment me, but don't.
It's weird, right, And it also it creates.
An odd hierarchy a little bit where if you're complimenting someone, it separates you and also you're putting them in the position of receiving something they might not be ready for. Especially I believe in if you're going to compliment someone, compliment them on them on something that you share.
Yes, right, so be like, oh my gosh, I have those shoes I love them too, right, are we twinsies?
I mean, I guess men usually say twinsies, but like like, well try please try it twins ees. Just like see how your male friends respond and be like yes. So I think that if you're going to compliment comment on a shared similarity, then you can kind of celebrate together. If you're complimenting someone one way, you're actually putting them farther away from you, not closer to you.
That distance in hierarchy makes so much sense, especially when someone's new. It's different if you know someone. But if you randomly go up to on someone and go, oh, I really like the color of that dress, what are they going to say and like thanks exactly?
And now it's like, oh, actually, worse, worse if you were to say, oh, Vanessa, I like the color your dress.
By the way, I'd be like, I like your color too.
It's black.
That's what happens is like you compliment someone on something and they're uncomfortable.
So what I do is I'm like, I'm going.
To comment you back, and I feel so an authentic right because then I'm like I don't know what to say. And by the way, if you're going to compliment someone don't compliment the tall guy I'm being tall, Like, don't compliment someone on the trade that they didn't even work on. Yes, like compmiment them on something they worked hard on.
Yes, I get about my eyes all the time. That's that's the compliment. And I always say I didn't end them, So that's like that's my response because I'm like, I didn't do anything, like thanks to my parents.
Like also like what do you do? Then you're like, I'm like your eyes.
Too, and the persons like they're black exactly, And then you're stuck.
Yeah, you're stuck. And that's what I like about your goal. I really really liked that advice, and I hope everyone uses it. We're trying to get a me too, and you have to have a goal to every conversation. The gold cannot be. Let me get to the next question, which is usually where we get stuck, which is like I'm just going to live in this like jumping relationship between vices. Yeah yeah, yeah it's and it's like, yeah, where did you grow up, what do you do for work? Do you have any siblings?
Like all these questions that just okay, so let's let's let's play this out let's go even deeper. So let's say that someone's doing that to you. Okay, So there's two sides of a conversation. All my students are high achievers, very smart, a little awkward. Sometimes those are my people. So what happens is they work on their people skills. They're like yeah, VanNess, like, I got it, I got I got the Contextcuse I got my conversations. I'm available whether it's in work or at play. And then they're with someone who's doing that to them. Right, You're with someone who's like, so, where are you from? You have a lot of siblings. Okay, So here's how you break that social script. One is I want you to think of what are the three questions that you're asked most? So I have the same questions I'm asked over and over and in social social settings, and it's usually what do you do? Where are you from? How did you get into that line of work? That's a big one I get.
Okay.
So the biggest mistake you can make is you are bored by those answers and you show it. Oh, I'm from La. It's like right, It's like, yes, yes, I'm from La. But it ends the conversation. So I want you to think of what's a way that you could answer that question that gives a hook or a story or it's a funny moment and it is a bridge to you asking them something else back. How can you answer those questions that's going to slightly shift or transform the conversation and makes you more charismatic. So I even think, like, if someone would ask you how are you, you can answer it, oh, seven out of ten today, right, or like better on the inside than the outside, right, like whatever it is, like just like break the script. So if you break the script with something purposeful and you're like, okay, when someone and ask me where I'm from and I say LA, I know I don't want to talk about La.
I moved for a reason.
I live in Austin texts now, and I want to talk about something else. So what I will often say is, you know, I'm from LA and about six years ago I moved to Austin, Texas, and now I'm a cowgirl and I wear cowo boots and that's like my thing. And then we get into a whole much more interesting conversation about cowgirls or Austin whatever they are interested and then I'm looking for me too.
Yes, right, Oh, I've been to Austin. I love oh yeah talking about Austin. Do you like tacos?
I like tacos too, right, so like it weaves and so on? Are the three questions you get asked the most often? And what are three answers that you can use to get you to more me too moments that authentically like them? The other thing you can do My last when I'm like out, I've been trying and trying to steer is I will play verbal games. And I've actually never talked about this on a podcast before, but we're gonna see how this sounds. But I really do this, which is I love guessing games like I love them. So if someone's like, how many siblings do you have, I'll be.
Like guess good, And.
I am so curious what they say, because then first of all, people are like what like They're like surprised that I have I'm like, guess what do you think I am I'm.
Going to say because I don't know, I'm going to guess that you have one sibling. I was gonna three, no, way, five, four? So I have.
I have an older brother and three younger sisters and so you can guess, and so that already makes it way more playful, right, It's always fun.
Like if someone guesses I'm an only, I'm.
Like, how dare you?
How dare you?
But then we talk about only and then I, instead of asking them back, I say, can I guess yours? And like sometimes I get it right, And by the way, that feels really good. Oh gosh, I don't know oldest. No, I don't don't answer.
I just ye, sorry, get real the conversation the youngest, youngest? You mean, are you the youngest?
I'm the oldest. I have one youngest.
Okay, so I so it's just like fun to play the game and then it's kind of like guess and then I can be like, oh I didn't I didn't peg you. I was thinking oldest or youngest, So you can kind of have the back and forth. It totally changes the dynamics of the conversation. And so that's my last resort is you can play game with I love that. I also love like if I got this actually from Twitter, and it totally works. If it says someone says they're from something, so where are you from?
I'm from London?
The windy City. But I always say the windy city. It's I don't even know.
I don't know, but you just like you can make like funny responses back and then people and you have a bandit. It just broke the script, right, Like being a little playful and conversation also can create me to moments because you'll find your person. Yes, right, Like I try to be funny occasionally, and if you laugh at my jokes, we're going to be If you don't laugh at my jokes, it's not going to go well.
But what I love about that is we often put so much pressure on people to be interesting and pressure on ourselves to be interesting, and we think it's about having this unique conversation start, or this amazing point of view or this debate that you know. I feel like we put so much pressure, like we've got to start giving a ted talk to the person sitting next to us, and actually that disengages them. I love the guessing game. I think it applies to any of those three questions you just share, where do you come from, where do you live? Now? All of that, and it makes it so much more fun and you get a sense of what someone's personality is and I like the interactivity. It's almost like, I'm sure you feel this way when you're on stage a lot and you're talking to an audience. My least favorite thing is someone saying, give a sixty minute keynote and don't engage the audience in the conversation, because all of a sudden, it's one way. And I think that's what we think interesting conversations sound like, where we can just talk about our lives and come across interesting.
I also think it's so much pressure to be interesting because what is interesting is different for different people, and so if you're trying to be interesting, it's worse than fake it to you make it. It's what do I have to do to perform for you? And I don't think interactions should be a performance. They should be intentional and you're building towards something, which is do I belong?
Do I feel accepted by you?
And this is like a question that I want everyone to ask themselves, especially when you think about those first impression words. Sometimes people who trigger you badly it's because you don't feel safe. I don't mean necessarily physically safe, I mean emotionally safe, where there's topics that you're a little scared to bring up, or there's things you walk on eggshells because you just don't know how that's going to go. And so the other tests you have as you're doing this back and forth you're getting to know them, is do I feel safe to share my real answer? Do I feel safe to answer something that's not on script that's like not what everyone else would in answer?
Do I feel safe to not be interesting? Right?
Like, if we have this pressure interesting, it's a performance. If you're like, I'm just going to answer and like this may or may not like click with you, then that's the ultimate belonging.
I think, yeah, yeah, what if what if you're in one of these conversations and you want it to end? Oh yeah, well, like you just like I want this to end. I've been looking around. I'm trying to just edge towards the door, like side stack. I'm trying to figure it out. But like, this guy's hitting on me, this girl's talking to me, this person's just wasting my time. I'm in this bar, I'm in this gym.
What I do this is called the art of a graceful exit, and it is a skill. You have to learn it because there's going to be times when you're just not with your person and that's okay, okay, So here's what you do. It's three steps, okay. Set number one is you begin to nonverbally signal that you want out. Okay, so we're we kind of subconsciously pick up on these cues. So first is you want to point your toes towards the door. When we're aligned with someone, we typically angle our toes towards the person. When we're not into someone, we typically angle our body and our toes outwards. Funny anecdote here is we also tend to angle our toes towards the person we have a crush on, or the most interesting person in the room. So whenever I'm like at office parties, I can almost always decide the office crushes because people will subconsciously, even if they're in conversation, they'll be pouring towards the person they like the most. So when you move your toes towards the door, it's just it subtly indicates that your body is angled outwards. And then I also want you to make less eye contact right, so that could be an overhead gaze. I would never normally do this in a good conversation, but you want to subtly signal to someone I need to break right, I need to break off. So then you're overhead gazing. You're going to glance at the door or the bathroom. That is also another very small signal, Uh, I'm disengaged.
Okay.
So that's one is non verbally signal. Second is you're going to use verbal cues. The thing that I want you to do is ask for future plans. When someone is in a conversation, they're very present. When I would like to go, I'll be like.
What's your plan tomorrow? Yes, got me a big plan for the weekend.
Because wait, this is step in them three. They're gonna then answer, you know, what is their plan tomorrow?
What is not for the weekend.
They'll be like, well, have so much fun tomorrow or this weekend. It was so great talking to you, and I'll see you later.
Three steps.
The final step is just wish them well on those future plans, thank them for the conversation, give a handshake or a high five, and then say I'll see you later.
Yeah, that's great because you can't always just be like, oh, I'm just gonna go get dessert, because you might not be you coming.
I'll come with you.
I'll come with you. The nightmare reaction. Yeah, why did I say that? Oh you're not leaving the part yet. You just want to talk to someone else.
And look, I'm radically honest. There are times at parties, well I will say to someone, you know, it's been so great speaking to you. I kind of want to make the rounds or some really cool people here.
Can we chat later?
Yeah?
Like that's okay too, right if.
You pop confident with that.
But the few the three steps works, it's like very seamless. And then there's one other non verbal queue which I'm gonna teach you that you sparingly. But nodding makes a difference with the amount that people speaks. So research shows that a slow triple nod one, two, three makes the other person speak sixty seven percent longer.
Yeah. So if you're in a conversation and you're going m.
You're literally telling them non verbally, tell me more, just keep on talking. So if you don't, So, if you're a good conversation you like what they're saying, please use a triple nod.
It's great, Like you do.
It a lot of the interviewer I love it because then it makes me keep going. But if you're like, I don't want this person to keep talking, stop nodding, stop nodding, because you're subtly encouraging them, And then you could also try a fast triple nod. So a slow triple nod shows engagement, a fast triple nod shows I'm done. It's like this, So here's a good one versus y, Right, just like a subtle way being like got it, got it, wrap it up, I got it, I got it. So, just like subtle, you don't want to offend anyone sixty seven longer.
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I do in the podcast all the time. And I've actually been in podcasts where the interviewer, some interview is a trained not to nod a tool, and I find it really hard to talk to someone like me where I have to talk, and yeah, if I speak to someone who's not nodding a tool, I find it really challenging.
It's so this is a really important thing is when we're talking about cues, there's a cycle. It goes decode, en code, internalize, So your sending me cues that is called encoding. So encoding is sending signals to someone else. You're sending me signals of warmth. Nodding is a warmth queue. Head tilting is a warmth cue, right, So that's warmth. So you encode me that signal. I decode it. Ah, he likes his answer. I internalize it. Keep talking, And so this cycle goes on and on. If someone is stoic or mute or they under signal, it kind of breaks that cycle and it isolates the other person. I work with a lot of leaders, and there they wonder why their team doesn't like, oh, put up to them, or why they're seen as intimidating or cold, and it's because they are under signaling. They're not sending enough warmth signals to make other person feel like there's this connection. The other way that decoding, encoding, internalizing works is negative cues. So muting is one. It stops the cycle. Positive is a next where we're like, ah, this is going well. Negative is the other one. So there was a research study they wanted to know if how negative cues affect someone's physiology. So they devise a little experiment where they had a participant walk into a room of a bunch of other people and they had someone in the room a confederate signal a sign of social rejection. So a social rejection que is an irol, it's a scoff right, it's like a a lip purse. They had them signal this towards this unsuspecting participant, and what they found was once the participant the moment they spotted the social rejection queue, their own field of vision increased, their pupils dilated. What happens when when our pupils dilate is we can take more of our environment, Like are literally their field of vision increased? Why if we see a Q of social rejection, our brain is like, oh is anyone else signaling social rejection? What did I do wrong? And where's my escape route? Meaning that if we spot a negative queue, it changes our body. Yes, So if you're in an interview or on a date and you're like, I don't I don't some I don't feel great about this, listen to that because that is your body language reading part of your mind that picked up on a negative queue that your brain doesn't like. It could have been a subtle Q social rejection. It could have been a vocal cue chaine that you didn't notice. It could be a negative facial expression or gesture. So, for example, in that study they were doing social rejection cues, but they even found if someone flashes a fear micro expression at you, so they widen the whites of their eyes, and like that, we catch the fear like our own amygdala begins to fire. And so if you feel uneasy with someone, listen to it, because it means that your body has picked up on some thing that it did not like that was a threat, and you should dig deeper into that.
So let's say you were at the gym, you said hey, they said hey, back. You ended up going on a couple of dates. Right, You've graduated from the gym to a restaurant or a coffee shop or whatever, and now you're on a date with that person and you're trying to figure out whether they're lying or telling the truth. You're trying to figure out whether you feel good around them or not, and you don't really figure that out until third or fourth day. Anyway, you don't really know enough. You're not getting enough cues, going back to your point, especially if you're spending time with people in a very limited environment. So if you're seeing someone in a coffee shop, or a restaurant or going to the movies or whatever it may be. You're seeing them for one and a half hours, two hours, and it's controlled. You started to spend more time with them. What are the negative cues we miss because we're infatuated or attracted to someone.
The research shows that it takes two hundred hours to become close friends with someone, so a soulmate or a partner, it's even more. That's a lot of hours, and we tend to make very big decisions about a relationship in the first six hours.
Not enough.
And so what you said was really important is first, is I want you to get off script. Coffee shops, restaurants, those are very controlled environments. They've probably done those dates a lot. I want you to get off script. I want you to do what I call the car challenge, which is I want you to drive somewhere an hour away with them.
Oh wow, it's a lot of trust.
Yeah.
Well, so you've had three or four dates, right, and you're like to be say, I feel safe. Right, So, but you're like, is this clicking?
Are we clicking?
You might just be on script. It might be like just it it's two vanilla. It's to the same or maybe you are picking up on something. So the road trip challenge is when you pick somewhere an hour away that's a different activity. It could be hiking, it could be pick a ball, could be art class, it could be a wine tasting, anything that's not restaurant or coffee shop, normal things. You have an hour there about it our activity to our activity an hour back. You're going to find out in that setting how they drive or how they listen to you, how they stop, stop and get gas, stop and pick up some snacks. Like we're trying to see them in a lot of different environments. How do they treat people, how do they treat your space? You want to see them off script, that's the very first thing. Then you're going to be looking for what I call cues of inauthenticity. Cues of inauthenticity is when you're verbal does not match your nonverbal And this is what liars do. So we do a lot of light detection sides of people because I'm fascinated by what are the cues that humans do when they're not telling the truth. And all of the light detection cues are when there's incongruence, it means someone is saying something but they're not showing it. So nodding is a good example of this. So we've found we have a little game we play with people in our lab where we ask them two truths and a lie. Share two truths about yourself on one lie. Sometimes people will say yes but shake their head no, or say no but shake their head yes. That's an incongruence, and liars will often do this. So you'll ask, you know, so what do you think of the new girl? You know, she's she's great, And they're shaking their head no, but they're saying yes. There's a hesitation there, but we don't even notice it. But once you start to look out for it, you'll start to see these incongruents.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I do that, see now the people do it like you know, you just yeah, wow.
And also could be doubt, right, like someone someone could not know if they like the girl or not, so they're kind of yeah, kind of sort of right by the way India, Bulgaria and Pakistan, nodding is a little bit different, very different for sure, right, So I just like to make that note. So looking for incongruits, they're saying I'm happy, but they're not showing happy like a fake smile, for example, is a real smile when we reach all the way up into these upper cheek muscles. So when I'm smiling all the way, I get these crows feet.
Right.
If someone says to you, oh, I'm so happy for you, dead on the top right, too much botox, either one.
That's getting harder. It's making my job harder. It's making my job harder that you.
Know, oh, there's not real happiness here. And this happens a lot in dating when you'll say your truth, you'll say your passion or your value or your love, and they'll go, oh, that's nice, and they're giving you a fake smile. They're saying that's verbally okay, and your brain goes, uh, that's oftentimes your body has picked up on ooh they said it was good, but I didn't feel it was good. So you're looking for incongruent cues or clues that someone is not stating what they actually feel. And when you're off script, you see way more of them. Yeah, you see way way more of them. I also think there's some cues that we can't read. For example, we catch fear through smell. So I mentioned the smell before. This is a study that completely blew my mind. They brought people into their lab. They sold them up into different groups. They had them wear sweatsuits like suits that caught their sweat. The first group had to run on the treadmill, the second group skydiveage for the first time. They had two collections of sweat. They had treadmill sweat and fear sweat. Then they had unsuspecting participants in an fMRI machine smell these two sweat samples. I had no idea if they were smelling gross, right, I hope they paid them well.
So gross.
People who smelled the fear sweat caught the fear. They smelled this random thing, and their own amygdala began to light up. They began to feel afraid. So sometimes when you're with someone and you're like, I just feel so uneasy, there's also this unreadable aspect. But I want you to listen to it. Because our brains are so smart. They are working to protect us. And so if you you're like I feel off, that's your alarm belts. It's probably your amygdala signaling something does not feel right here.
Gosh I cannot believe you can tell that much from sense smell.
Oh, it's coming, that's the studies are coming. I cannot wait for these old factory last.
Now that's what anyone's gonna do. I'm into it.
I'm into it, like if someone runs by me, I'm like, I want to smell.
I want to smell. I think it's important.
Yeah, but how much obviously, how much does how much do you perfumes help people live?
So all these studies are based on natural body sense. In these studies, they make them more plain white T shirt. They don't let them more to good or anything like that, so it's natural smell. I actually think that sometimes too much coliner perfume is like masking. Like I don't know, if you've ever been with someone we were like, whoa, it's too much.
I don't like it.
I think in dating, actually you should underscent, like let your natural scentse.
Yeah. It's really funny because yeah, yeah, my wife's Stepani into like natural essential oils. She won't really use any of and I'm happy with that. But then I have one cologne that I love that she hates but everyone else in the world loves. But she likes my natural scent, but she doesn't want me to. Yeah, it's an interesting one, but everywhere else ago ever friend loves it. So I'm like, I'm gonna keep sprying this.
My gosh, you're like white for other people's Sorry.
Yeah, my wife loves me already. But you know what's really interesting about that is I think sometimes we all know that. I know that there's a big difference between what you're sharing and teaching and people pleasing. There's a big difference. But to the untrained eye, it's a fine line where people are now trying to get a reaction, and therefore they're starting to say things that they may not mean, which is not what you're suggesting at all.
I also think, like I look at people pleasing as our deep desire to be liked. It is so safe for us to be liked, and so when I look at the research, so research from Prince University found that as humans, we are trying to answer two basic questions about other human beings. Can I trust you? And can I rely on you? We are constantly trying to assess people's warmth and competence. Warmth and competence makes up eighty two percent of our judgments of people eighty two percent, and so warmth is actually we're talking about here in that most people have an imbalance of warmth and competence. We're very high and warmth maybe not as high in comptence, or we're signaling a lot of warmth but not signaling enough competence. Highly warm folks people who are off the charts in warmth. Their primary desire is to be liked. Highly competent folks. This is a lot of my students. They want to be right. So a highly competent person, they're very at work, they want to be on agenda. They want to get it right. You know you're in a relationship with a highly competent person if they constantly google fact check you right. They're less concerned about you liking them, but they just want to make sure they get the facts right. A highly warm person wants you to like them, which means they often sacrifice their credibility to be liked. That is actually what people pleasing is. In my opinion, I think people pleasing is someone who goes, I so want to be liked that I'm willing to throw my competence out the window just so that you like me. They're sacrificing the need to be liked for their need to be respected. I say to people pleasers what true communication is is showcasing both be both liked and respected. You can be both friendly and credible. You can be assertive and also be nice. One of my most popular videos is a Nice Person's Guy to be assertive because you don't have to sacrifice one for the other. And so for my people pleaser is what I would say is your goal, sure is to be liked, but it's also to make sure that people respect who you are and your values. So if you're having conversations with me two moments, what you're actually doing.
Is do you value that? Do I value that? Great, we both value it.
When it becomes inauthentic, when I think we get into even like manipulation, is I don't like that, and I'm going to pretend I do. Yeah, Right, when someone has a fake me too moment, like I was just watching an episode of The Kardashians and they were interviewing someone in our job interview this is the biggest problem in job interviews. And they ask him do you use quick books? And he was like yeah, and they said, what do you use quick books? For and he was like quick booking, like he did not know, yeah quick, And that was inauthentic because he wanted to be liked. He wanted to say he had it. He should have just said no, I haven't met I'm a fast learner.
Yeah.
When I think people pleasers get into trouble is they pretend they like something that they don't, and that is manipulative, but also it doesn't serve you or them.
Yeah, and we do it, and people do it to us, right, like if we're all honest, like everyone kind of does it. Someone may overtly do on a date, especially especially in the beginning, yes, and then you realize afterwards that they didn't really know what that was or loved that type of food.
Or you accidentally have lied yes, and they pick up on your line.
Yeah right, So you're like I love cats. I love them.
Now I'm allergic to cats, but I'm like, I just love a cat, and the other person's like ooh, and they got this signal in their body that was like I don't I don't know about this person, but actually it was because you were just trying to be likable and I would much rather you say, you know what, I love.
The idea of cats too.
Yeah, but I'm allergic, right, And then everyone laughs and it's okay, right, And if that's a deal breaker for them, wouldn't you rather know, Like in dating especially, I would rather you create allergies for the person.
So my approach to dating.
I have a couple of single friends is I'm like, don't be liked by everyone. Don't have a profile or go on a first date and try to be the most liked person. In fact, if you have things that really matter to you, share them up front. I had a friend who was trying to date and I was having a lot of trouble and I'm like, what are you putting in your profile about you? And it was the most vague generic, like I love beaches.
It's like everybody likes a bach, Like everybody likes that.
You know.
She had all the very and I said, get really specific, you know, like you love beaches, but what do you hate?
Yeah, she's like I hate camping?
Like say it, Like, why even go on a date with a guy who loves camping?
That's not going to be you.
And so I think that if you don't like something, if you're looking for me two moments and a not me too moment comes up. What an opportunity, Yes, you have an opportunity to be super authentic and be maybe a little bit funny and still accept them for who they are, but realize, okay, we're not gonna drive on that. If that's a deal breaker for you, wouldn't you rather know it?
Yeah? And it starts a great conversation too. I think that's the point that you think you're gonna suddenly take away the energy from a conversation, But if you have an interesting point of view, you have a different direction to take it. It can be great.
Some of my closest friends we tease each other about our biggest differences, right like that becomes a beautiful friendship too. So I think that's where people pleasers get in trouble and they feel bad about themselves because then what happens at the end, they feel unliked and like nothing's worse than feeling unlovable or unlikable.
Totally. I want to go into the part you mentioned their manipulation because I think people who are charismatic and narcissists often have quite similar traits, or at least today we talk about them in that way and it's hard because some people just have that power and control and feel like they're almost moving everyone else around like their pawns. And often it can be quite magnetic. We can be quite drawn to it at first because it feels, yeah, it feels like there's awe in reverence and there's this feeling of wow, you blow me away and you have so much magnetic energy, only to realize it was manipulation and narcissm. How do we tell the difference between charisma and narcissism.
This is why I like the car test is typically narcissess have a pattern. Narciss blow you away with their charisma. At first, you are just in awe. They know how to signal warmth and competence. They're finding me to a moment you're like, wow, I'm clicking. And their confidence is contagious. We love to be around highly confident people, which often narcists are very confident. So in that first hour two three hours we're blown away. Then typically they go one of two ways. The first way is narcissis if they don't get what they want even a little bit, they go into victim mode. So there's a misunderstanding about narcissis, which is that they're always confident. When a narciss doesn't get what they want or doesn't get what they feel they deserve, and listen for that word with narciss I don't deserve this kind of treatment. I deserve something better, I'm worth more. Be very aware of those words. If they don't feel like they get what they deserve it, or they're not getting what they're worth, they become victims. Listen for that victim language because narcissists will sometimes be very charismatic, but they're playing the victim card, and the victim card is really dangerous because then it's everyone else's fault and then all of a sudden, you're enabling it. You're like, well, I have to protect you. You're so charismatic. And that's how they are manipulative with people, is they play the victim card and you want to protect them. So be very careful of that dynamic, because I think that we often are like.
Well, she's not a narcissist, she's suffering, she needs my help.
That is often actually a narcissist is they're playing the victim because they want your help and that makes them feel good. That's one pattern. The second pattern is that narciss can be high conflict people. A high conflict person is they're very charismatic and they blow you away with their charisma, but they create all these little disagreements fights, They create conflict around them, and they step and they back up and they go, I don't know, I don't know how that happened. But they're constantly stirring or stoking conflict. Watch out for that. Yeah, that's the other reason why those car trips, getting out of restaurants and coffee shops is it's very easy to not have conflict in those very controlled settings. But if someone cuts you off on the road, or someone short changes you, or someone's late, you get to see, oh wow, they play victim or they're creating conflict where there doesn't really need to be conflicts. And then when they're brainstorming in the car, because there's something that happens when you're next to someone, I think they verbalize differently. Like typically women like to diead have conversation like this face to face. Men sometimes like to have conversations side by side. It's why they like talking it at a bar because they're side by side. They like talking on a walk or a hike. They like talking in a car. So sometimes if you're next to someone and they're just driving, or you're driving and they're listening, they'll say things they wouldn't normally say in a in a face to faced eye ad and you might hear, oh, that's interesting those patterns. I didn't know that you felt that way about that thing. And so you want to make sure that you're looking for those secret patterns of manipulators, not just the obvious ones.
Yeah, that I mean that what you just said there about the way we sit and speak to people. It's a lot more easy to be open with someone if you're not staring eye to eye, especially for men. I assume yes, and there's a sense of yeah, there's a sense of we're kind of moving in the same direction rather than against each other. That kicks in. I think there was this there was a story about how Steve Jobs always used to do walking meetings, like, yes, you always wanted to walk side by side with people.
Yes, so I like with friends, I or even if business friends come into town, I always ask for a walk and talk always, and I never say let's get coffee. I'm always like, let's get tacos. Yes, like just to like break it up, break the script a little bit. And I do find there's something about walking and movement that also you have more breath, you're looking around. I have a secret feeling that when I walk and talk with someone, they're more creative.
Yeah, they're like more open.
Minded, Like they go places that we could never have gotten. I swear we could have never gotten over a coffee.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the big thing I'm taking away is this off script idea. Yeah, it's just breaking the script. It's interrupting the pattern. Yeah, because we're all so caught up in our patterns. And by the way, that makes you boring as well, it makes you less interesting. Just as you said earlier, if you've being asked the same three questions, it's hard to answer them in an interesting way. It's hard to make how many siblings you have an interesting conversation on the thirty seventh time over coffee, But.
When they're guessing, it's always interesting exactly.
And that's what I love. How you've interrupted the pattern, whether that's through the questions you ask, whether that's through gamification, whether it's through changing the path the way you're connecting.
And also let's get to the chemistry of this. When you give an exciting answer or a different answer, you are creating dopamine.
Now don't mean there's a lot of things.
In our bodies, but in conversation, dopamine is the chemical of motivation and excitement. So if I asked you a question or answered a question in a different way, I highlighted a new neural pathway, my brain went ooh, something new. And that dopamine does a couple of things. One, it gets you excited. It makes you feel more positive. Two it doctor John and Madina found that dopamine makes you more memorable. So if you're in conversation and someone's gone on fifty first dates, or like you're in a business meeting. This especially in business, I say to people, create dopamine in the boardroom. You've got to make your presentation to stand out. You've got to create dopamine in an interview. If you're pitching work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you've got to create dopamine in those investors. Because dopamine is what makes the brain go, oh, this person gave me pleasure.
I want to remember them.
When you trigger dopamine people are more likely to remember your name, what you talked about, and what you care about. So if you want to be more memorable, the best thing you can do is try to create excitement moments for them, both of you. Me two moments are typically excitement. That's the secret motivation about why I want you to have me two moments. And then also sharing stories. I kind of have like a story toolbox. I like keep all my favorite stories and a little note on my phone because I just like telling them, you know, And so like start collecting or cataloging stories because those are gifts for people. You tell a good story, someone's like ah yeah, like they like love it.
And then lastly is juice excitement.
So when we talk about conversation starters, I have a couple favorites. So if you're going to stop asking what do you do? Where are you from? I love context cues. The other thing you can do with people you already know, especially at work, is ask working on anything exciting these days? So, like I had this problem where I would see people who I kind of knew, like friends of friends or like family members I don't see all the time, and I'd be.
Like, how's life? Like what do you do?
So now I always ask working on anything exciting these days? That is a dopamine gift for their brain, because in their brain then they have to go, oh, you broke their script exciting, exciting, exciting.
They're literally searching their brain for something exciting.
When they find it, they go oh, yeah, you know actually and they tell you, so you're actually like juicing dope. Mean, you're borrowing it from other area of their life. And by the way, if they say no, what a great opportunity for vulnerability. Like I've asked it maybe one out of every ten times, I'll say working on anyth exciting or have anything exciting coming up?
And they'll be like.
No, yeah, and I'll be like, wow, what's going on? Tell me what's actually happening in your life? And we have skipped How are you busy?
Good?
If you ask someone, how are you there going to be busy?
Good? Good?
Busy? How about you?
Yeah?
And so I'd rather like get past that.
And so asking that question is an unlocked So keep that one in your back body is my favorite.
You literally read my mind. I was about to shift to work, so you already went ahead of it, which is great. So I'm really glad that you gave the alternative because I've had a lot of people that I've asked that question too lately, and they actually focus so much pressure because I think we're living at this time now where everyone's doing something so big, which is what it looks like. And so then when you ask someone that, they're scared that they don't have something big to say, and so they either shrink and they actually get scared of that conversation that goes. I don't really want to talk about that. I get a lot of that sometimes, or someone are like, oh, that's a lot of pressure. Exciting. Yeah, I'm just trying to get by. Like that happens. And it's interesting that even though it's such a better question than what do you do? How's life? How's it going, it can create some friction, and so I really like talking about it when it doesn't go your way.
So I just want to acknowledge it takes courage to break scripts. Yeah, I know scripts are comfortable, Like I know that the reason why we're like how are you good? Is because it's safe, And so I want you to just acknowledge yourself if you're thinking about asking these questions like it does take some social courage, but it's worth it. And so yeah, we got to harness, like, Okay, it might be uncomfortable. You might someone might not have a good answer to that, or a good answer. I even say a good answer. They might have an exciting answer. They might be more vulnerable, but any answer is an opportunity for connection. Whatever they say, at least it's not a social script and your other options, so you can accept it with vulnerability. Oh my gosh, tell me what has it been hard? What's going on? Or you could have your own answer. So I've asked someone that question, they're like and they kind of are thinking about it, and I go, well, while you're thinking about it, here's what's exciting with me.
And then I take the ball.
That's so conversation is like soccer, right, we're passing this ball back and forth?
Or basketball. I don't really play sports. What's a sport you like? Passing the rugby?
I don't know, so, like, like you pass the ball back and forth, but in basketball you're supposed to rible, right, So like I shouldn't do sports metaphors.
I really shouldn't. I don't know anything about sports.
The closest Okay, it's gonna be passed.
The basketball and back and forth when I ask doing anything exciting.
Recently, I passed.
The ball to you and then you're like holding the ball and you're like, if you can't think of it, take the ball back, right, just take it back from them. So they're like okay, and they can listen, they can think, and that also works really well.
Yeah, and any question I always say to be any question you are going to ask someone else, make sure you know the answer to you totally right, because I think so often we ask a question and they'll be like, well what about you, You're like and you're like, uh, you know, and so be ready to answer.
I also like, I just want to make like a push here if someone's willing to be brave, which is we are more interesting and exciting when we do exciting, interesting things. This means getting off social media, This means not watching the show everyone else is watching. This means getting up and trying different things. And so I also like a little side like just like I just want to like share what the world is like. May we all be always working on something a little exciting or a little interesting for ourselves. And if the side benefit is we have great conversations. Great when you become known for asking these questions, you also inspire others to do something a little bit courageous. And so, for example, I have a friend that always always, whenever we get together, he always asks what are you learning? And the first time he asked me that question, I was like, I was like, I'm learning to survive with my kids. But now I know he's going to ask you that question. You know what, I'll be darned. I learned something every time before I see him. Yeah, like I will go find something to learn. And you know what, that makes me better? Yes, Like he had the courage to ask me that question for the first time and me not have a good answer, and he rescued me.
He talked about what he was learning.
But now I am better for that question because I want to learn something every time I see him. And speaking of work, I noticed, so my team is all over the world. Yeah, he signed the people team. We're all over the world. And I notice that we have a team call virtually on Tuesdays. I noticed that like the first five minutes of our call was like this, like kind of small talk, like a little bit negative, kind of awkward, and so I thought, you know what, We're going to have a new routine that the moment we get on the call, we all share tell me something good. And so our team meeting always to tell me to be able. We go around and everyone shares something good, something small, something big, And not only does it make our team call so much more interesting because I learn the most interesting things about my team, but also one of my team members told me that Monday is her do something good day because she wants to have something good to share in the meeting.
So like, be the person known for it.
Like do an icebreaker and your team meetings, I said, on an icebreaker every Monday my newsletter. Every Monday, I have a work appropriate, somewhat exciting, kind of interesting icebreaker that's a gift to you. So like, be the person known for bringing those icebreakers. And people want my grumble and might well their eyes, but you know what, secretly they like it. Yeah, of course they like it. And if they know they're not your person, yea.
What was this? Do you know what? You give me some of the cues?
Yeah, So like I always try to think of something that's like breaking a script in a little interesting So like I think that this week was are you an introvert, ambrovert or extrovert? Got it very helpful, by the way, Like you should know in your friend group and your work team who is an introvert, extrovert or ambrovert because introverts get energy from being alone, and especially at.
Work, they are are more creative alone.
So the worst thing you can do in an introvert is have a brainstorm meeting where you don't tell them what you're brainstorming. So you bring them into the room and you're like, okay, guys, let's brainstorm all the big ideas for next year.
And they're like they're trying to think in their head.
If you would just give them a little warning beforehand, they would come very prepared. So you should know who needs that warning time. Extroverts get energy from being with people. Now at work, how this shows up is if an extrovert has a good day, they want to celebrate with people, They want to hop on a call, they want to pop by your office, they want to chitchat your ear off. Good to know if they have a bad day, they also want to call you to chat or stop by your office, And so you need to know who's their person. It shouldn't be an introvert. And so this is like pair the extroverts together, right, Like I have a wonderful sales team and they are my extroverts.
And I'm no an extrovert. I'm an ambrovert.
And so they have a slack channel that I don't even know how to logging to slack, so I can I cannot slack. I don't know if it's a verb or it's a noun, but I can't do it. But they love it and they're all extroverts together, and so I'm like, oh, be extroverts by salespeople.
Yes, so you should be very purposeful.
So that question, and what my readers have told me is it's sparking these conversations of like how can I serve you? Yes, Like you're an introvert. So if you're having a bad day, do you on space?
Like introverts? If you give them bad news and then you're like any questions.
I want to talk it through, They're like no, So the best thing is like give them the bad news and be like like why don't you take a day or two? Will regroup on Thursday. So like just the way that we communicate. If we just talk about it, we're honoring everyone, We're serving everyone.
I've always struggled with that because everyone in my life thinks I'm an extrovert.
I know, yeah, but I but I.
Get energy when I'm alone. I work on my own. I don't like working groups and brainstorms and not worth. I have to dive deep on my own. I like dealing with problems on my own.
Yeah.
So, but I'm not an introvert. I'm an ambivot Yeah. Why what's the difference.
Okay, so eighty percent of people are ambroverts, so it's actually most people. Very few people are true introversion to extroverts. We don't talk about ambiversion enough. Ambiversion is a superpower. Ambiversion means that around the right people you get energy, and around the wrong people you lose energy. I'm in yeah, and around the right situations you get energy. Okay, So if you're an ambivert, it also means averts are able to dial up. This is why oftentimes ammaverts are mistaken as like outgoing introverts or like social introverts, which is you can dial right, like you can dial for two hours, but like if I go to a happy hour, and.
People always like, what are you talking about? Awkward?
They don't know that I spent two hours flat on my back in the hotel room.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, they don't see the recharge process. Because ammaverts have this power, we can dial up and we can mirror and match. Ammaverts are usually highly empathetic. We are chameleons. We are social chameleons. So ambaverts have this amazing skill where they can dial up to match an extrovert energy. They can be the life of the party if they want to, but they also can have these beautiful, quiet introvert conversations. But they need a lot of recharge time in between. And so I say it's a superpower and you just know how to what charges your social battery more or less. I will say for ambroverts, our biggest struggle is ambivalence. Extroverts can like everyone, They can find something good about everyone. Even with a person who ish, they can still get energy because they are fun.
I've got friends like that.
I have a friend who is dating right now and she always says, you know, I never know on a date if if we're having fun or I'm just fun.
I have a friend that I say, I'm like, you could have dated or married anyone. Yes, because you'll just for Madeline love. It'll make it good. You'll make any sense.
An extrovert struggle with this. She really struggles.
She does like I don't know which one it is. So that's extrovert. Ambroverts and introverts know who their toxic people are. They are like if I'm not a heck, yes I'm not going. But ambiverts, we tend to be more people pleasing, where we'll be like do I like that person?
Do they like me?
We often have people on our calendar where we look at it and we're like, we tend to have friends out of habit. Yeah, like they've just been friends for like a long time, and we like default the friendship, but actually the friendship we're not like getting a lot of energy. We're not giving or getting a lot of energy. So it's really important for ambroverts, if this is you listening, don't be ambivalent about your relationships. Ambivalent relationships actually take way more out of you than toxic relationships. When you look at your calendar and you see precious social time being given to someone who's like meh, you come back a little drained, you come back a little more tired. It makes you not believe in relationship. Yeah, And so I would rather you feel heck yes about someone than ambivalent. And that's a curse of ambiverts. The only curse of our kryptonite to our superpower is we can sometimes let a relationship go that really shouldn't.
Be as and you allow for it to continue, Yeah.
Because you don't know how to stop it and you don't want to hurt their feeling. Yeah, And you wouldn't know how to have a friendship breakup anyway. And you also I think that sometimes amberverts aren't sure what's fun. It's like the weird. I don't know if this is me, Like I'm I don't know if this is just a woman thing or not. I don't know if you have this. Sometimes I do things and I'm like, am I having fun? I don't know if it's like my age or but I will do things that I've done before and I wonder, like, is this fun? Was Netflix at home better? I don't know. I think it's an Ambivert thing. That's something that I've been sort of wrestling with of Like, sometimes I don't even know what fun is.
Yeah, no, No, I want to react to There's two thoughts that came to mind to the first part you talked about. I always like to remind people that there's two ways of growing in a friendship. There's growing together and there's growing apart. To notice how they both say growing right. But when we're growing apart, we think we lost something or we think it ended, or we think we failed, and it's like, no, that was growth too, and there was growing together. But we think of you growing together, then it's going right. And if you're growing apart, it's going wrong and it's like, no, there's growth. And so I always like to remind myself that. But to your other point, I think it's because time has become more valuable and our self awareness has risen at the same time as we value time. So I'm the same. I now find it much more frustrating to watch a bad show in the evening and feel like I wasted three hours of my evening than I ever did before. So I don't know if it's an umbivert thing or a person or an age thing, or I just know that I'm like like me and my wife went back and forth on that. A couple of years ago, I was just like, I'm not getting anything out of this. If we want to do something together, I want to do something that helps us connect and go deep. Or I'd rather go read and work, to be honest, because I'd get so much more out of that than i would have sitting here and watching nothing.
Yes, yess, it's a great show obviously, of course, and that's magic. And so I think that, like I'm having a personal struggle with this right now where I have some beautiful friendships, but sometimes I'm having conversation and I'm wondering if we're getting anywhere. Yeah, which is I feel bad. I'm like I don't want to be productive in a friendship, but like I want to like like figure each other out, or like let's be laughing or I and so sometimes I'm like, where are we going? Yes, And I don't know what that is. But it's been a little bit of a challenge. And I'm also a working mom, and so I think sometimes I.
There's like less me two moments.
Yes, sometimes unless you're also a working mom. And then I feel lonely, So like I think this is a work in progress.
No, that's really interesting because I think it's for people who've optimized all areas of their life. Me. Yes, there's also a sign of I'm looking for optimization. But the way you just explained it, which I love, is what we're ultimately doing is looking for new states of belonging. Yeah. So what I was saying to one of my friends the other I said, my oldest friends in London will always be my best friends. There is never going to be someone who knows me that deeply, intimately or as long. Yeah, but I need a new set of friends that have similar lives to me today because I have different me toos now, using your language, I have different me twos with them that I can't have with my old friends. And so it's not a replacement or a substitute, but it is finding people that I feel. We both have podcasts and we can talk about all the challenges that come with the podcast week. We both travel the world too much and you know whatever, and I need to have someone that I can vent about those things and talk about those things.
Yes, so thin that's like the challenge of modern friendship. I also think it's the challenge of dating right now. Do you date someone who is exactly your same or do you date someone where you have shared values but you're very different. And I think that's a real challenge in friendship too, And I don't know the answer.
I've found great relationships to not having the same exact value. I do think it's very rare to truly have the same exact values. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because push comes to shove, you're going to choose something over the other.
Yeah.
But I've found that the best relationships I have are with people who respect my values and I respect theirs. That's it, So we don't even have to agree. But I really value that your value makes you you, and so I respect it. Yes, and you value that my value makes me me, and you respect it. And that allows us to operate in our own universe and world but have a mutual sense of appreciation.
And that also brings up a point of like I think that we should be. One of my favorite motions that we don't talk about enough is aw yes, if you respect someone else's value, like hopefully you could even be odd by it. Like I have friends who have an incredible work ethic. Do I don't work that hard?
Right?
Like I work, but like I do.
A lot with my family. Like I spend a lot of time onmmy. Most of my time in the week, I only spend about fifteen hours a week working. The rest of my work is mommy. But I so respect my friends who just they just kill it. They're always working and there's a little bit of odd there. I'm like, wow, Like you're just killing it. So I think that, like it's who can create awe for you. Yeah, where they're so kind that you're odd by them. They're so driven that you're odd by them. They're so warm that you're odd by them. And so I think that, like that's a good way to think of it. Is it's not the same. It's that you respect them enough and you have some meat too moments of course, but like you can have a little bit of on all your relationships, even like in my marriage, I do conversation starter with my husband all the time. And one of the ones we did recently was in my newsletter, which is who is.
Your role model? Which is different than who is your hero?
Like hero is like more of like a like idolizing them, whereas like a role model is someone that you maybe aspire to be like. And he said me, and I was like what why, and he was like, you know, you just you're you're you're you, and I love that about you. And I was like, wow, like this, it's so important that we're odd by our partners. And so when you're dating, I think a good little litmus test for yourself is am I inspired by this person?
Like?
Am I in awe of who they are or what they do or what they believe? Because if the answer is yes, that's a keeper, Like, that's a keeper. It's more important than a checklist. Oh my ladies listening. I look, I know we love.
A checklist, but those checklists don't always serve us.
Oh, definitely not. Those those are parameters are blocking people, Like he has to be six foot four, and it's like you could have a six foot three guy who is perfect, but the filter has kept him out. Yeah.
I think like maybe like lovingly burn the checklist.
Yes, it's like a scented candle, Like burn it because I don't think it's serving, and then just go out.
And just you know, find your person.
Yeah. Oh gosh, I wanted to talk a bit about women in the workplace. Yeah, because I think and as you just talked about, you know, being a working mom, And I think about women in the workplace, and I think about how cues and body language are very different in how we perceive men and women. And whenever I speak to women, they'll say, I get seen as being difficult instead of being direct. Yeah, I'm seen as being argumentative as opposed to being assertive. I'm seen as being moody as opposed to just having a failed, rejected day or whatever would have happened. And I feel like the standards are different. What does a woman do when she feels that her directness is being seen as difficulty.
So women are actually facing two challenges in the workplace today. One is exactly what we said, that we can be seen as bossy or dominant when we're actually just stating our point of view.
Assertiveness is bossiness.
But on the other hand, we're also struggling with being too likable, being interrupted, being underestimated, being too soft. And so we actually have two sides that we're trying to wait. We have this very narrow valley we're allowed to operate in. Right, can't be too friendly, can't be too smiling, can't be too likable because won't we taken seriously? Oh, but can't be too a sort of can't be too Domino El Specienes bossy. So we had this super narrow lane with which we can operate in. So what I think is really really important is focusing on the two traits that matter. These are the only two traits that matter, which are warmth and competence. When we are with someone whose signals you can trust me, you can like me. I am open to you, and you can rely on me. I'm productive, I'm capable. Those are in that valley and they are the most important signals that you can have in anything. Video calls slack, your LinkedIn profile and so I wanted this is a really weird challenge. I want you to start with. We have the power of AI. Now, this is a new thing that has just come up. I want you to open up your favorite AI tool, and I want to do two things. I want you to copy and paste your LinkedIn profile. I want you to put it in AI and ask AI, how warm and competent am I. What's incredible is the warmth and competence research that came out of Princeton, which is done by doctor Susan Fisk. It was done in two thousand and two and it's been replicated. It's a very solid piece of research. AI models are trained in it. They know about warmth and competence. So put it in AI. Ask how am I coming across warmer competent? AI will tell you based on the words you use. Then ask it, make it more warm and competent, and just see what they change. Then what I want you to do is take five important emails that you've recently sent. What we don't realize is our cues are changing the way people treat us. So the types of words you use in your emails are changing people's perception of your bossiness or I would say over over friendliness. Take five emails you spent some time crafting, put them into AI and ask AI, how warm am I? How competent am I? How could I have done better? We can use AI as a charisma coach, and it is incredibly helpful to see are you leaking? Are you showing cues of warmth and competence? Just verbally like forget in person, like forget the nonverbal. We have to start with the email first. That will be a really important test. Right off the bat, see what it says and it will tell you, Oh, you're leaning far warm. So, for example, in our research, we have students who are off the charts in warmth. They love emojis. Okay, my highly warm folks, Oh my goodness. They love emojis and exclamation points, and they love words like yay, fab whoop, and wow. Okay, these are my I know when I can read emails from a person and be like, this person highly warm, and they're interrupted in meetings. This person is highly warm and they're not taken seriously. This person is highly warm and they're getting pushed back on their salary range. This person is highly warm and they are not be seen as credible in their interviews. I can look at your emails and I can tell you what professional challenges you're facing, and so can you. Highly competent folks, on the other hand, they under exclaim they don't use a lot of emojis, and they love data percents, numbers and figures.
They love those.
In fact, for a highly competent person, it's physically painful to use a exclame point. It's like, oh, but it's not credible. But you know what that means. You're undersignaling warmth. It means if you are if you are too formal, too sterile in your communications. That could be the reason that people are like, oh, I do like she doesn't give me a good feeling. I can't connect to her. She's too dominant. And this comes directly from the research. And this is a quote I remember that I don't remember quotes often, but this quote struck me so deeply. Competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious. Yes, this is the curse of highly smart women. Highly smart women are in the workplace and there they have great ideas, they have super high competence, and they rely on their smarts. They're like, my ideas are so strong, my prep my presentations, I know my stuff. I don't need the warmth. My ideas are so good they'll they'll live on their own. But the research shows it doesn't matter how smart you are, it doesn't matter how good your ideas are, it doesn't matter how well prepared you are. I'm sorry if you do not showcase it with warmth, people are suspicious of you. Oh that's so good, and so we have to be able to balance out our competence with our warmth, those ideas, with the lubricant of warmth.
That is so good. That is so good and you're so right that we all think we can compensate for our lack of warmth with competence, that's it. Or we can compensate for our lack of competence with warmth, right, And the point is people won't respect or like you based on They'll like you if you're warm, but they won't respect and men.
Have the same problem. I think that women's valley is just smaller.
I agree. I really like that, Yeah, that.
We just have a very narrow way to be and like even sometimes like I do a lot of interviews and I'm on you know, social media a lot, even in my grid on Instagram, I am trying to balance this very narrow lane of warmth and competence.
It's why I think so many, like women, we feel.
Like we have to share, like our breakfast, Like we feel like we have to share because we're like.
Oh, I don't want to be too competent. I don't want to be too smart on that.
Side, and so we also we compensate or try to balance in the wrong ways. And so I would much rather you take control of your interactions, right, we talk about control.
That's the way we do. It is we know.
Okay, well, there's ninety seven cues, here's warm ones, here's competent once. I'm gonna choose my recipe right, Like, I look different than other women because I don't want to use all the same cues, But I need to find what's the recipe that I feel the most comfortable with. What's the flavor of charisma that I like the most? It makes me feel like myself.
That I mean, that is the recipe for respect.
That's it.
Yeah, it's as simple as that, and do everything we've talked about today. What I deeply appreciate is that it's earned, it's built, it's engineered, it's prepared for. It's not something that someone just has and turns up with. Which is this myth that I think makes people go, that's just special? Yeah?
And I like sometimes in my comments, I try not to read comments, but sometimes my comments people say, you know, just show up as yourself. You know this is this is manipulative, this engineering. And I'm like, yeah, because if you are lucky enough that you can show up and just be charismatic, win friends, amazing.
I am so happy for you.
But most of us don't have that privilege, like I do not, and so I think that, yeah, it is a little bit engineered in the sense of if you feel competent and you feel warm, you should know how to showcase that. I often felt warm and felt competent, but I had no idea how to show it. And so I think that there is a rare bird of magic people and they are amazing and we can learn from them. But for most of us, it's just dialing up our natural warmth and competence and just knowing how to show it.
I want to remind people I think this stuff can be used disingenuously. Oh yes, And it's only disingenuous if it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where it shifts in the manipulation, it shifts to like trying to get something out of something and extraction and lying.
And you know, this is my greatest fear, by the way. Yeah, Like before I came out with Cues, especially, I had like a like a life crisis because I started writing the book and I was like, oh no, like this could be used for evil, and like I had a whole thing with my publisher where I was like, I don't know if I should publish this, Like I don't these are tools that people could use for bad and I and she was like, yeah, but they could also be used for good. And so I sat with my team and I talked to them about it, and we decided to move forward with it. Obviously, and you know, it's changed so many people. But that is my biggest fear is that people will use this for bad, not good. And so it's really important I think for everyone listening that if you have the intention to build friendships and to find your people and to be warm.
That's why we started off with that word.
Whatever word, it is great, like that is your intention, and that is only searching for good, and that should always be our intention.
I love that, Vanessa. You are incredible. I think you musterify go between cold and confidence. I can now we spent two hours together. No, I mean it's I think the work you're doing is amazing, and I think it's so needed in a time when a lot of us are dealing with low self esteem, low confidence. We think everyone else is impressive and we're.
Not, and we're lonely and lonely, and we're underestimated.
Yes, and we look around and we think we're the only one struggling when the reality is someone just had the chance to develop a few of these skills, maybe in a workplace, maybe in college, maybe their parents had some of these naturally. And you don't have to feel that what you have now is all you have.
That's it, And not everyone is going to be your flavor. Yeah, you don't have to let everyone like you. In fact, that doesn't.
It is impossible.
So I would rather you go into conversation finding your people, the people who like your weirdness, the people who like your awkwardness, the people who truly value your value.
And everyone else wish them well.
Yeah, but like, life is too short to spend time with people that we're ambivalent to about. Life is too short to not say hey, like it's too short.
Yeah, absolutely, And it's there's this old meme that I love that people post and it says, confidence isn't everyone will like me confidences, I'll be okay if everyone doesn't, that's it, and that I've always loved that because I think we think confidence means, oh, everyone likes them, and A that's not true for anyone at all, and B it's no, I'll be okay if they don't, because I know why I did that. I know why I showed up that way. I know why I said hey because life's too short. I know why I made eye contact because I wanted to form a real connection. I know why we went on a road trip because I wanted to make sure that someone was not just being a script and grew with me. Yeah, it's like I did all of that, and I know why I did it, even if it didn't go the way I wanted it to go. Yeah, Vanessa, thank you so much for showing up in your full self. We end every episode of On Purpose with the final five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. You're not going to overseerect Vanessa. Your first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Don't say yes to everything good advice.
Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
Just be yourself.
Doesn't help me. It doesn't help Yeah, because especially you don't even know what you're capable of.
When people would say that's me, what if you don't like yourself? I had a long time where I didn't like myself, So when someone said be yourself, that was like the worst way to be and so I had to figure out something else. And so I think that that was hard. That was the worst advice because it actually didn't help me.
Yeah, I love the answer question number three, And you can expand on this a bit, because I think it's really important. I feel like right now we're losing a lot of these cues because most of us are on a dating app and we're messaging, so you don't even get to see what someone's looking at. You don't get there, hey, hey, get that. Yes, you don't get the smell. You don't get the ability to give twenty nine you know, you don't get it, And so what are we losing and how do we navigate it?
What we're losing is freedom because they're so narrow those apps. It's like, how do you look?
Okay? Now what are these five questions that are on your profile? How did you answer them?
Oh?
Now we're going to text in.
It's very weird, limited way back and forth, and so we lack the freedom to be like, so like, what brings you here to this gym?
Oh? You come here a lot?
Oh?
I saw you with your friend, Like, we need more freedom to find our people. I don't dislike dating apps because I think they've created a number of beautiful friendships. And but what I think that is really important is you don't use them as your only vehicle for dating.
Make them be one vehicle.
But then if you're dating and you're really serious about finding your person, make it your part time job and go to the places where your person would be. So when I'm my friends is also dating and she's a dog and I was like, sure, do the apps one, you know, thirty minutes a day at the most. Otherwise, I want you to go to every dog park within a mile of you every day after work and just look around, talk to everyone, talk to men, talk to women, and just start talking to the people o those dog parks. You know why they live within a mile of you. They are dog owners and you can see.
Them with their dog. And she was like, oh, And I was like, that's your part time job.
So just make sure that dating apps aren't your only way that you're going to the places where they might be and you're spending more time there than on the app.
I love that. It's great advice. Did you find someone yet not yet? No? Yeah, that's cool. I really like that though, I really like that, why do I want to go a question for for how do we get comfortable with awkward pauses? Oh?
No, hmm, so actually here's how we do it. Powerful people pause more. Pausing is a signal to someone that you're not rushed. So one, if someone else has paused, you have made them comfortable enough where they don't feel like they have to rush with you.
Gift.
If you are pausing, you are giving space to say I'm okay for just this second to pause, and so pausing shows you're doing something right.
I love that I do it all. I did it just then even to come up with that question because I was trying to figure out where we wanted to go, yeah, and I didn't want to just do this what I'm doing now, which is like, oh, I'm think of it as wet to ask you next, and I'm not sure where to go with it, but I'm thinking about it, like, let me just think about it for a second. Is that okay?
And it's just filler.
It's just filler, and we're lost, and it's like, well, no, I actually didn't know. And I thought about it for a second and it.
Gave me a moment to take a breath. And we both feel comfortable and feels comfortable.
Yeah, and it's okay to do that. Fifth and final question, we asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone had to follow, what would it be?
Okay?
If I had to create one law but everyone had to follow, it would be no more fake smiles. I like that, no more fake smiles. If you like it, like it, heck, yes, like it. If you don't like it, don't pretend. We would be so much better off with no fake smiles because we would actually know what people like and don't like.
I like that advice. That's good. That's good, Vanessa, Vana adverts. Everyone, Thank you so much. That was a master class. Oh my goodness, dating, work, communication cues. I really hope you come back on the show. I would love it, and I hope you get to spend more time together. And everyone's been listening or watching. I want you to tell me. I want you to tag me and Vanessa on Instagram, on TikTok. I want you to share with us what you're testing, what you're trying, what you're experimenting with. If you said hey to someone right, whichever one of these that you did. I want you to tell us that you're doing it. I want you to share with us what you're trialing, because that's where we learn together. You're going to inspire so many people who follow you and connect with you, your friends and family, to learn about how they can master the secret language of charismatic communication. You have the ability everyone else she now does as well. It's just about finding it and building it. Vanessa has the blueprint. Go and follow her across social media, grab her books, and tag us both when you're listening to this episode.
If you not at someone and you end up that they're your soulmate and you come to Austin, Texas, I.
Will marry you. Okay, Like, let's create some soulmates. Let's make some on purpose babies.
I love that.
I will marry you. But if you hate someone and they hate you back, I'll marry you.
That's brilliant. I love that. That's so cool. Hey everyone, if you love that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist Lourie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in the therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.
If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands.
It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.