Hey everyone, It's Jay Shaddy and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth, spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a meet and greet with photos. Tickets are on sale now. Head to Jaysheddy, dop Me Forward Slash Tour and get yours today.

Hey everyone, It's Jay Shaddy and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth, spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a meet and greet with photos. Tickets are on sale now. Head to Jaysheddy, dop Me Forward Slash Tour and get yours today.

To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough?

To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough?

Me?

Me?

Michelle Obama to say that to a therapist. So let's impat that former First Lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother. We'll be hosting a podcast called I Am O.

Michelle Obama to say that to a therapist. So let's impat that former First Lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother. We'll be hosting a podcast called I Am O.

What have been your personal journeys with therapy?

What have been your personal journeys with therapy?

We need to be coached throughout our lives.

We need to be coached throughout our lives.

And my mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me stop worrying about your sister.

And my mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me stop worrying about your sister.

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain.

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain.

What would you say has been the most hardest, g recent test of fear.

What would you say has been the most hardest, g recent test of fear.

I'm gonna make him start so that I don't start crying.

I'm gonna make him start so that I don't start crying.

The number one health and well in the podcast.

The number one health and well in the podcast.

Jay Sheety Jay Shetty Jon.

Jay Sheety Jay Shetty Jon.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you come to become the happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guests are two of my favorite people. I'm so grateful and excited to welcome one of the back, and one of them for the first time ever. I'm speaking about none other than Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Welcome Purpose Dynamic.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you come to become the happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guests are two of my favorite people. I'm so grateful and excited to welcome one of the back, and one of them for the first time ever. I'm speaking about none other than Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Welcome Purpose Dynamic.

I always say, it's like your my most favorite interview ever period.

I always say, it's like your my most favorite interview ever period.

Oh my gosh, that's saying a lot.

Oh my gosh, that's saying a lot.

Oh my gosh. Wow, you're gonna make me cry. That's so sweet.

Oh my gosh. Wow, you're gonna make me cry. That's so sweet.

She's the one who turned me on to you, so this like old Home Week.

She's the one who turned me on to you, so this like old Home Week.

Thank you both, But honestly, I'm so grateful. I was just thinking when I was preparing for this, I was like, I wish my sister was in town because then we could have double interviewed.

Thank you both, But honestly, I'm so grateful. I was just thinking when I was preparing for this, I was like, I wish my sister was in town because then we could have double interviewed.

All right, we're gonna we have to do that.

All right, we're gonna we have to do that.

She would have killed me if I did that to her, because she's not She's an optometrist in London, the best. Yeah, we're going to check your eyes for you. She's four and a half years younger than me, and I still remember the moment. Well, I don't remember the moment. It's interesting. I've seen a picture of me holding her when she was born, and I was four and five years old, and so I have this memory that I held her when she was born. Yeah, and we've been inseparable ever since.

She would have killed me if I did that to her, because she's not She's an optometrist in London, the best. Yeah, we're going to check your eyes for you. She's four and a half years younger than me, and I still remember the moment. Well, I don't remember the moment. It's interesting. I've seen a picture of me holding her when she was born, and I was four and five years old, and so I have this memory that I held her when she was born. Yeah, and we've been inseparable ever since.

Jay, you're gonna have to when she comes to town, just don't tell her. Just tell us and we'll come back and we can just ambush her.

Jay, you're gonna have to when she comes to town, just don't tell her. Just tell us and we'll come back and we can just ambush her.

Yeah, she will, but we have one of those pictures to my favorite family picture. I was a newborn. I was maybe ten months, but I was one of these big, fat, round, puffy babies and a bonnet and a white dress, and my dad was in a suit and a bow tie and mom our Mom had the most beautiful tunic dress on and Craig sat on her lap. I was on my dad's lap and I have this little fat arm and he's in a little bow tie and he's holding onto my arm and looking at the camera like you better not. You know, he seems so so concerned. You know, he was about two years old.

Yeah, she will, but we have one of those pictures to my favorite family picture. I was a newborn. I was maybe ten months, but I was one of these big, fat, round, puffy babies and a bonnet and a white dress, and my dad was in a suit and a bow tie and mom our Mom had the most beautiful tunic dress on and Craig sat on her lap. I was on my dad's lap and I have this little fat arm and he's in a little bow tie and he's holding onto my arm and looking at the camera like you better not. You know, he seems so so concerned. You know, he was about two years old.

Can we get the look?

Can we get the look?

I was worried. I had this. It's just like, what is going on? And I hold on because I was worried.

I was worried. I had this. It's just like, what is going on? And I hold on because I was worried.

I don't know what they're gonna do to my sister. But that that picture epitomizes our relationship. He has always been my quiet protector, just and that sweet little face. You know, he is the ultimate big brother. And he's been by my side holding my arm like that for my entire life.

I don't know what they're gonna do to my sister. But that that picture epitomizes our relationship. He has always been my quiet protector, just and that sweet little face. You know, he is the ultimate big brother. And he's been by my side holding my arm like that for my entire life.

Wow, I love that. And do you actually remember do you remember the moment or it's the picture that you remember that's.

Wow, I love that. And do you actually remember do you remember the moment or it's the picture that you remember that's.

Just like yours.

Just like yours.

It's the picture I don't know, and I remember back to when I was three and four some things, but that when I don't. But when I see the picture, it just warms my heart every time I see it.

It's the picture I don't know, and I remember back to when I was three and four some things, but that when I don't. But when I see the picture, it just warms my heart every time I see it.

Yeah, I love that. I mean sibling relationships. As I said in mine as well, My sister and I are so close. Yeah, and we haven't lived in the same country for nine years now, but we talk and stay in touch and we're constantly connected, and I wanted to stop asking you this question for both of you. That I feel like the first time and my sister got close is when I shared a secret with her, and I was wondering, what was the first secret that you ever told each other, as early as it was, as silly as it was, that you remember sharing something in confidence in the beginning, early days of your relationship.

Yeah, I love that. I mean sibling relationships. As I said in mine as well, My sister and I are so close. Yeah, and we haven't lived in the same country for nine years now, but we talk and stay in touch and we're constantly connected, and I wanted to stop asking you this question for both of you. That I feel like the first time and my sister got close is when I shared a secret with her, and I was wondering, what was the first secret that you ever told each other, as early as it was, as silly as it was, that you remember sharing something in confidence in the beginning, early days of your relationship.

Okay, now you did this to me when you came on our show. That is a question I've never been asked.

Okay, now you did this to me when you came on our show. That is a question I've never been asked.

I love it. I love it. You got me back, you got me back? Okay. A secret, A secret?

I love it. I love it. You got me back, you got me back? Okay. A secret, A secret?

I don't know if it was a secret, but it was a what felt like a secret practice of ours. We shared a room for most of our lives, and there came a point in time when our parents, because we didn't have a lot of money, thought it's time for them to have their own rooms. So they took this one big room our grandfather's south Side, who was a Jackla carpenter, built plywood a plywood tea wall that went down the middle of this one bedroom and broke the room into two little units that were big enough for a twin bed and a desk and one of those accordion doors, right, that was those were our rooms.

I don't know if it was a secret, but it was a what felt like a secret practice of ours. We shared a room for most of our lives, and there came a point in time when our parents, because we didn't have a lot of money, thought it's time for them to have their own rooms. So they took this one big room our grandfather's south Side, who was a Jackla carpenter, built plywood a plywood tea wall that went down the middle of this one bedroom and broke the room into two little units that were big enough for a twin bed and a desk and one of those accordion doors, right, that was those were our rooms.

And it was that that old paneling look, so it was it was that fake wood that.

And it was that that old paneling look, so it was it was that fake wood that.

Was, and the and the ceiling didn't go all the way to the top of the roof, and there was a little crack in between the rooms by the window sill. And when we were supposed to be in bed, we would spend that whole night just talking in between the walls. Right, we were supposed to be asleep, but go, Mesh, Mesh, are you awake. I'd be like, no, And then we'd have some deep conversation about life. And you know, every now my mom mom would yell, go to bed, you're supposed to be asleep, and we giggle and we just keep talking. So I think we shared the secret of not going to bed but having our own little breakdown of the day. I don't even remember what we talked about, but we were always supposed to be talking, but we were constantly talking. So I can't think of a secret.

Was, and the and the ceiling didn't go all the way to the top of the roof, and there was a little crack in between the rooms by the window sill. And when we were supposed to be in bed, we would spend that whole night just talking in between the walls. Right, we were supposed to be asleep, but go, Mesh, Mesh, are you awake. I'd be like, no, And then we'd have some deep conversation about life. And you know, every now my mom mom would yell, go to bed, you're supposed to be asleep, and we giggle and we just keep talking. So I think we shared the secret of not going to bed but having our own little breakdown of the day. I don't even remember what we talked about, but we were always supposed to be talking, but we were constantly talking. So I can't think of a secret.

So I can think of a secret.

So I can think of a secret.

Okay, So this is the discovery of Santa Claus.

Okay, So this is the discovery of Santa Claus.

Oh, yes, that's a good one.

Oh, yes, that's a good one.

So we Jay. As you know, we lived in a two family home. We lived on the top floor, very small apartment. Our great aunt Robbie and uncle of Terry lived downstairs.

So we Jay. As you know, we lived in a two family home. We lived on the top floor, very small apartment. Our great aunt Robbie and uncle of Terry lived downstairs.

And in our basement, which wasn't finished.

And in our basement, which wasn't finished.

It was a concrete basement, pillars, washing machine, furnace of storage room. But then there was a table that was like a workbench, and a refrigerator that didn't work or it wasn't plugged in.

It was a concrete basement, pillars, washing machine, furnace of storage room. But then there was a table that was like a workbench, and a refrigerator that didn't work or it wasn't plugged in.

It was a refrigerator, old time refrigerator. And we used to go down there and play.

It was a refrigerator, old time refrigerator. And we used to go down there and play.

We played hockey, we'd ride our bikes, we'd do all kinds of stuff. And Mesh was down there once by herself and came running upstairs.

We played hockey, we'd ride our bikes, we'd do all kinds of stuff. And Mesh was down there once by herself and came running upstairs.

Great Greg, come here, come here, come here, and she took me downstairs.

Great Greg, come here, come here, come here, and she took me downstairs.

She opens up the refrigerator and there are two empty boxes for boxing gloves.

She opens up the refrigerator and there are two empty boxes for boxing gloves.

Now this is June or July.

Now this is June or July.

Yeah, little kids boxing gloves.

Yeah, little kids boxing gloves.

We got boxing gloves for Christmas the year before. Oh okay, so, and she deduced.

We got boxing gloves for Christmas the year before. Oh okay, so, and she deduced.

The gloves are here. Santa wouldn't leave gloves.

The gloves are here. Santa wouldn't leave gloves.

Gloveboxes gloveboxes because our mom didn't wrap the presence. She set them under the tree as if Santa had just brought toys and didn't wrap them, and I remember me.

Gloveboxes gloveboxes because our mom didn't wrap the presence. She set them under the tree as if Santa had just brought toys and didn't wrap them, and I remember me.

Saying, Mom and Dad are Santa Claus.

Saying, Mom and Dad are Santa Claus.

But then the secret was we weren't gonna tell them that we knew, because first of all, we didn't want to deploy disappointment. Yeah, because it's like what a blunder, right, So we sort of kept it to ourselves that for a good year or two we knew there wasn't a Santa Claus.

But then the secret was we weren't gonna tell them that we knew, because first of all, we didn't want to deploy disappointment. Yeah, because it's like what a blunder, right, So we sort of kept it to ourselves that for a good year or two we knew there wasn't a Santa Claus.

Along, we played along. That's so funny. It's like living a love. That's really And do your parents know that the story? Yeah?

Along, we played along. That's so funny. It's like living a love. That's really And do your parents know that the story? Yeah?

Yeah, they were mad at our aunt Robbie. My mom was particular because she was, like, I told her not to keep those glove boxes. She was supposed to throw those. My mom was furious because my mom was Christmas very seriously. I mean, she decorated the house, She created a chimney where there wasn't one. She was very crafty. She she really took great joy in keeping this Santa Claus myth alive. And the fact that our aunt Robbie spoiled it for us sooner than she was ready to, she was not happy. Yeah, they didn't have kids and didn't really appreciate it. And she cared more about saving a couple of boxes than you know, keeping the magic of Christmas alive.

Yeah, they were mad at our aunt Robbie. My mom was particular because she was, like, I told her not to keep those glove boxes. She was supposed to throw those. My mom was furious because my mom was Christmas very seriously. I mean, she decorated the house, She created a chimney where there wasn't one. She was very crafty. She she really took great joy in keeping this Santa Claus myth alive. And the fact that our aunt Robbie spoiled it for us sooner than she was ready to, she was not happy. Yeah, they didn't have kids and didn't really appreciate it. And she cared more about saving a couple of boxes than you know, keeping the magic of Christmas alive.

Oh that's amazing.

Oh that's amazing.

Yeah, that was a good one. That's why it's good to have him here, because I wouldn't have remembered that.

Yeah, that was a good one. That's why it's good to have him here, because I wouldn't have remembered that.

Well, that's what's so beautiful about this, this relationship. And it's interesting you both said, because we did the same thing. So me and my sister shared a room as well, and it's so interesting to hear about. I talked to a lot of siblings and some are not close to each other and some are very close to each other. And you see that pattern in people who shared a room, who talked about something every night connected. And that's how I think me and my sister got used to talking to each other, because that's who you dissected the day with exactly. Even if it wasn't very deep and profound.

Well, that's what's so beautiful about this, this relationship. And it's interesting you both said, because we did the same thing. So me and my sister shared a room as well, and it's so interesting to hear about. I talked to a lot of siblings and some are not close to each other and some are very close to each other. And you see that pattern in people who shared a room, who talked about something every night connected. And that's how I think me and my sister got used to talking to each other, because that's who you dissected the day with exactly. Even if it wasn't very deep and profound.

At the time, we were stuck with each other, for better for worse.

At the time, we were stuck with each other, for better for worse.

I love that what was what would you say, was something that you felt, a value that you learned at that early stage in your life that you both feel you've kept till today, like something that continue to be a part of who you are today.

I love that what was what would you say, was something that you felt, a value that you learned at that early stage in your life that you both feel you've kept till today, like something that continue to be a part of who you are today.

My mom wanted us to be independent children. And she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister, because whenever I did something, I wanted to include her. If I was going outside and she was outside, I felt like I had to keep an eye on her. I felt like I had to protect her, and my mom always said to not do that.

My mom wanted us to be independent children. And she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister, because whenever I did something, I wanted to include her. If I was going outside and she was outside, I felt like I had to keep an eye on her. I felt like I had to protect her, and my mom always said to not do that.

Interesting.

Interesting.

First of all, she didn't want Mesh to have to feel like she was being looked after by her brother. That's what her parents were for, and she didn't want me to have to worry about her. But I will say that I couldn't stop worrying about her. So I have been looking after her from the time she was a little kid and I was holding her arm. We ended up in college together at Princeton. And remember when we drove move to South Carolina.

First of all, she didn't want Mesh to have to feel like she was being looked after by her brother. That's what her parents were for, and she didn't want me to have to worry about her. But I will say that I couldn't stop worrying about her. So I have been looking after her from the time she was a little kid and I was holding her arm. We ended up in college together at Princeton. And remember when we drove move to South Carolina.

Uh yeah, We rented a car for spring break.

Uh yeah, We rented a car for spring break.

For spring break and drove to South Carolina.

For spring break and drove to South Carolina.

And visit our grandparents.

And visit our grandparents.

They had moved down there from Chicago, and we thought we'd surprise them and the two of us were going to drive, but I was so worried about her driving that I tried to drive the entire way by myself.

They had moved down there from Chicago, and we thought we'd surprise them and the two of us were going to drive, but I was so worried about her driving that I tried to drive the entire way by myself.

And you know, six hours later.

And you know, six hours later.

He's starting to blink like I'm like, are you okay? I got it? I got it, And I was like, you know, I can drive.

He's starting to blink like I'm like, are you okay? I got it? I got it, And I was like, you know, I can drive.

She's very capable and a very good driver. But I was, you know, me and mister worry war. So finally I had to just take care.

She's very capable and a very good driver. But I was, you know, me and mister worry war. So finally I had to just take care.

I just have to go to sleep. I was like, we'll pull over. I can do this. I drove us the rest of.

I just have to go to sleep. I was like, we'll pull over. I can do this. I drove us the rest of.

The way the way, but at every fifteen minutes after I fall asleep, I'd be like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like, are you okay?

The way the way, but at every fifteen minutes after I fall asleep, I'd be like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like, are you okay?

It's fine. Well for me, the value, it's the value of family. It's the value of the no one you can count on more than you know, your your siblings and your mom and your dad. And I feel for people who were raised with sibling turmoil, you know, or turmoil in their household where they didn't feel safe at home. And that was never the case. We felt poor, you know, we felt like we didn't always get the stuff that we wanted. But we always felt and it wasn't just our nuclear family. We grew up in a big community of family, were fortunate enough to be raised with all four of our grandparents. They all lived within a couple of mile radius of us. Even though our maternal grandparents were separated, they lived in separate households around the corner from each other, Wow, which was around the corner from us cousins and uncles and aunts, and when times were down, people would share homes. I remember when we were little in Southside, our mother's father, who lived with a couple of her sisters, their house burned down, their apartment did, and I remember being really little, and there was a discussion, or how are we going to help people out until they found a new place to live. And so two of our aunts, Carolyn, and there was someone else, stayed in our little apartment and she worked nights, but she slept in my bed and I didn't even really know it because she would come in and just push me over and sleep in bed with me, which was next to Craig's bed. It was just this, when family's in trouble, you step up. And I think to this day, throughout all our travels travails being in the White House, we retained that no matter what was going on in his life or mine, we had some rituals, you know. We did Thanksgiving together. His family came to the Easter egg role. My niece and nephew, his oldest kids. Whenever we had an interesting trip in the summer, Avery and Leslie always came with us, so it wasn't just me, Malia and Sasha on Bright Star the first Lady's plane, seeing Nelson Mandela, or going on Safari or going to see going to Rome, but averyan Leslie came with us, So it just made the whole experience feel like we weren't on some island just doing this really hard thing, but we were still doing it as a family. So family values, I think, is probably one of the strongest things we took away and we made it happen in that little house on seventy fourth in Euclid. It was just brimming with love and conversation and trust.

It's fine. Well for me, the value, it's the value of family. It's the value of the no one you can count on more than you know, your your siblings and your mom and your dad. And I feel for people who were raised with sibling turmoil, you know, or turmoil in their household where they didn't feel safe at home. And that was never the case. We felt poor, you know, we felt like we didn't always get the stuff that we wanted. But we always felt and it wasn't just our nuclear family. We grew up in a big community of family, were fortunate enough to be raised with all four of our grandparents. They all lived within a couple of mile radius of us. Even though our maternal grandparents were separated, they lived in separate households around the corner from each other, Wow, which was around the corner from us cousins and uncles and aunts, and when times were down, people would share homes. I remember when we were little in Southside, our mother's father, who lived with a couple of her sisters, their house burned down, their apartment did, and I remember being really little, and there was a discussion, or how are we going to help people out until they found a new place to live. And so two of our aunts, Carolyn, and there was someone else, stayed in our little apartment and she worked nights, but she slept in my bed and I didn't even really know it because she would come in and just push me over and sleep in bed with me, which was next to Craig's bed. It was just this, when family's in trouble, you step up. And I think to this day, throughout all our travels travails being in the White House, we retained that no matter what was going on in his life or mine, we had some rituals, you know. We did Thanksgiving together. His family came to the Easter egg role. My niece and nephew, his oldest kids. Whenever we had an interesting trip in the summer, Avery and Leslie always came with us, so it wasn't just me, Malia and Sasha on Bright Star the first Lady's plane, seeing Nelson Mandela, or going on Safari or going to see going to Rome, but averyan Leslie came with us, So it just made the whole experience feel like we weren't on some island just doing this really hard thing, but we were still doing it as a family. So family values, I think, is probably one of the strongest things we took away and we made it happen in that little house on seventy fourth in Euclid. It was just brimming with love and conversation and trust.

I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all you TA lovers out there. And even if you don't love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling odors that are good for you, listen to this RADI and I poured our hearts into creating juny sparkling tea with adaptogens for you because we believe in nurturing your body, and with every sip you'll experience calmness of mind, a refreshing vitality, and a burst of brightness to your day. Juni is infused with adaptogens that are amazing natural substances that act like superheroes for your body to help you adapt to stress and find balance in your busy life. Our super five blend of these powerful ingredients include green tea, ushwaganda, Acirolla cherry, and Lion's Made mushroom and these may help boost your metabolism, give you a natural kick of caffeine, combat stress, pack your body with antioxidants and stimulate brain function even better. Juni has zero sugar and only five calories per can. We believe in nurturing and energizing your body while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink. So visit drink Juni dot com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code on Purpose to receive fifteen percent of your first order. That's drink jay Ni dot com and make sure you use the code on purpose. Yeah, I love that. I remember last time we were together, you were talking about just the kitchen table and just the gathering of minds and family and how important that is in Craig, I know your birthday is coming up too, like it.

I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all you TA lovers out there. And even if you don't love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling odors that are good for you, listen to this RADI and I poured our hearts into creating juny sparkling tea with adaptogens for you because we believe in nurturing your body, and with every sip you'll experience calmness of mind, a refreshing vitality, and a burst of brightness to your day. Juni is infused with adaptogens that are amazing natural substances that act like superheroes for your body to help you adapt to stress and find balance in your busy life. Our super five blend of these powerful ingredients include green tea, ushwaganda, Acirolla cherry, and Lion's Made mushroom and these may help boost your metabolism, give you a natural kick of caffeine, combat stress, pack your body with antioxidants and stimulate brain function even better. Juni has zero sugar and only five calories per can. We believe in nurturing and energizing your body while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink. So visit drink Juni dot com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code on Purpose to receive fifteen percent of your first order. That's drink jay Ni dot com and make sure you use the code on purpose. Yeah, I love that. I remember last time we were together, you were talking about just the kitchen table and just the gathering of minds and family and how important that is in Craig, I know your birthday is coming up too, like it.

Is thank you day, thanks for remembering twenty first.

Is thank you day, thanks for remembering twenty first.

Yeah, absolutely, twenty first birthday. But were birthday is a big part of connecting over the years as well or as not not been, because that for my sister is like the biggest day. She's like, my birthday is really important. Do not miss my birthday, like I know.

Yeah, absolutely, twenty first birthday. But were birthday is a big part of connecting over the years as well or as not not been, because that for my sister is like the biggest day. She's like, my birthday is really important. Do not miss my birthday, like I know.

Well, we never missed birthdays, and we always celebrated birthdays, but they weren't a big deal like where we had a party, Like I think you had one or two birthday parties.

Well, we never missed birthdays, and we always celebrated birthdays, but they weren't a big deal like where we had a party, Like I think you had one or two birthday parties.

And this is the tripped out thing about this generation, Like kids have parties every year and multiple parties. They're blowout. You know, it's a birthday month and you're renting something and you're catering, and you know, I've been like our generation, you had maybe thirteen maybe five years old, you had two parties and they were at your house in the kitchen table, right, you know, with your cousins and.

And this is the tripped out thing about this generation, Like kids have parties every year and multiple parties. They're blowout. You know, it's a birthday month and you're renting something and you're catering, and you know, I've been like our generation, you had maybe thirteen maybe five years old, you had two parties and they were at your house in the kitchen table, right, you know, with your cousins and.

You played pin the tail on the donkey in the yard or somewhere like that. But but as a family, we celebrated everybody's birthday and it was a big deal. Every now and then that community of relatives that were around us would come over and it didn't matter what the day. If it was Thursday and everybody had to go to work on Friday, they would come over and sing Happy Birthday, gift cards out. Birthdays were always celebrated in our family.

You played pin the tail on the donkey in the yard or somewhere like that. But but as a family, we celebrated everybody's birthday and it was a big deal. Every now and then that community of relatives that were around us would come over and it didn't matter what the day. If it was Thursday and everybody had to go to work on Friday, they would come over and sing Happy Birthday, gift cards out. Birthdays were always celebrated in our family.

They weren't like big like see me, bring me gifts, but it was a time to gather. And we're talking about the extended family. So my mother had said brothers and sisters, and then the cousins and then our grandfather. We were always at Southsides house for these birthdays because that's the side of the family that did it. Every There was a dinner and cards for every birthday for all those people, you know, so it's almost like every weekend we were celebrating somebody's birthday.

They weren't like big like see me, bring me gifts, but it was a time to gather. And we're talking about the extended family. So my mother had said brothers and sisters, and then the cousins and then our grandfather. We were always at Southsides house for these birthdays because that's the side of the family that did it. Every There was a dinner and cards for every birthday for all those people, you know, so it's almost like every weekend we were celebrating somebody's birthday.

That's what's been something that you've an idea that you've had to unlearn since you were younger, something that you've kind of had to let go of as time has gone on. Something that was important before, but you're like, no, it's not so important.

That's what's been something that you've an idea that you've had to unlearn since you were younger, something that you've kind of had to let go of as time has gone on. Something that was important before, but you're like, no, it's not so important.

Talked about our grandfather's apartment being on fire. Fire back then in the seventies was a real thing, like houses caught on fire.

Talked about our grandfather's apartment being on fire. Fire back then in the seventies was a real thing, like houses caught on fire.

People didn't have smoke, especially in working class, poor communities, you didn't.

People didn't have smoke, especially in working class, poor communities, you didn't.

Have smoke detective detectors.

Have smoke detective detectors.

So I think we knew several kids who's homes caught on fire.

So I think we knew several kids who's homes caught on fire.

And I had to unlearn worrying about our house being on fire. I mean, I grew up completely obsessed with being able to recognize if the house was going to be on fire number one and then having the ability to get everyone out. And you know, our dad had MS, and so he walked with a limp from the time I could remember. He then had a cane, and then he had the crutches that went around his arm, and I would practice dragging him with his shoulder, with my arms under his shoulders around the house and he would I know it was humiliating, but he'd let me do it. And my mom would be like, Craig, put Fraser down, just stop doing that. And I went in to make sure I could drag him through the house. And we had like fourteen stairs down to get out. I didn't drag him down there, but I knew I could if I had to. That's something I had to unlearn because that was a real fear of mine. Was a fear of dying in a fire.

And I had to unlearn worrying about our house being on fire. I mean, I grew up completely obsessed with being able to recognize if the house was going to be on fire number one and then having the ability to get everyone out. And you know, our dad had MS, and so he walked with a limp from the time I could remember. He then had a cane, and then he had the crutches that went around his arm, and I would practice dragging him with his shoulder, with my arms under his shoulders around the house and he would I know it was humiliating, but he'd let me do it. And my mom would be like, Craig, put Fraser down, just stop doing that. And I went in to make sure I could drag him through the house. And we had like fourteen stairs down to get out. I didn't drag him down there, but I knew I could if I had to. That's something I had to unlearn because that was a real fear of mine. Was a fear of dying in a fire.

Wow, Yeah, what did it take?

Wow, Yeah, what did it take?

Like, what was the Well, what it took was I realized it was irrational as I got older, because there were.

Like, what was the Well, what it took was I realized it was irrational as I got older, because there were.

Less house fires.

Less house fires.

And I guess it wasn't irrational because there were actually house fires. But the advent of smoke detectors and the advent of sort of inflam non inflammable.

And I guess it wasn't irrational because there were actually house fires. But the advent of smoke detectors and the advent of sort of inflam non inflammable.

Or what is it, non and non flammable.

Or what is it, non and non flammable.

Items around the house, I was always worried about a fire starting. And we had a fire start in our kitchen. You remember, we were cooking pop tarts, which were like.

Items around the house, I was always worried about a fire starting. And we had a fire start in our kitchen. You remember, we were cooking pop tarts, which were like.

Saturday mornings, we kind of had the run of the kitchen because that was the day Mom would sleep in. And we had this old toaster and we were making fad tarts and it caught.

Saturday mornings, we kind of had the run of the kitchen because that was the day Mom would sleep in. And we had this old toaster and we were making fad tarts and it caught.

Fire and came out, and the flame came up and then sure enough.

Fire and came out, and the flame came up and then sure enough.

Mom to the rescue.

Mom to the rescue.

Mom came in and put it under the same.

Mom came in and put it under the same.

Yeah. But as you talk about fear, when I think about things that I think we had to subconsciously unlearn, was fear because you know, we grew up at a time and you know, just coming out of the deep segregation of Chicago. But our parents and grandpa parents grew up in it. You know, in a time when being black in the city, you know, you were isolated. There were areas of the city that you couldn't go into because you could be literally harmed killed as a black person. That was that was the truth of Chicago. As I noticed in my family, fear, the fear of what could happen to a black man, to a black person, kind of consumed some of our elders and stunted their growth. I mean Southside the grandparent that I talked about, he was kind of a mama's boy. You know, his mom our great grandmother, Mamma overprotected him and as a result, he never really got his own footing because he had a mom that was going to make sure you live at home. I'll take care of you. He also had limits as a black man because he was a carpenter who wasn't allowed to join the unions, couldn't afford to go to college. They were of the generation where even if you were smart and talented, the ceiling was real and the dangers were real. A lot of the reason our family was so close right was because the elders were keeping everybody close and they were slowly passing those fears on don't go down this street, don't go on this bus, maybe not take that job, don't try something new because it could kill you. I think our parents tried to actively unhook those those things from us by pushing us out. I think they knew that they had the tendency to suffocate their dreams because of these fears, to not try new things, to not draw outside of the lines. And I think they deliberately pushed us. So there were a lot of yes is in terms of experiences, exposures, Craig traveling on his AAU basketball league to other parts of the city, even you know, because in a city like Chicago, because of those fears, we had cousins that lived on the west side of the city. We lived on the south side of the city, in a neighborhood that was right along the lake near downtown Chicago. If you're a black kid growing up on the West side of Chicago, we met kids that had never been downtown. They had ever seen the lake. And if you've been to Chicago, to be from Chicago and never see the lake is a herculean effort. But you understand it when you're a black kid from the West Side and you viewed with suspicion. When you come downtown, you don't feel welcome outside of your neighborhood, so your world gets smaller and smaller. I think our parents did not want that smallness for us, and we saw how that smallness kept some really intelligent people in our lives in one spot. You know. They didn't move, they didn't grow, they didn't try new things. I had an aunt, my mother's youngest sister, who recently passed this year, who never came to the White House, and all the years that we were there, she never came. Why because she was afraid of flying, she was afraid of driving too long, She was afraid of doing anything but leaving her house and going to work and coming home. We saw that here, right, We saw that, and you have to actively tell yourself a different set of messages about what you can expect from the world. And we also could have been limited by that because while it physically limited some of our relatives, some of our grandparents' perspectives, like many people in this country, they were backwards thinking, you know, their views of white people and who they could trust. You know, the same south Side never went to the doctor because he didn't trust doctors, so he you know, he never went to the dentist. That's probably why he died in his seventies. He didn't have a tooth in his head, but he would never go to the dentist, you know. And we would talk about these things around our immediate kitchen table because our parents wanted us to learn from the mistakes that they had made and others. And that was the power of that householders. Our parents talk to us very openly and honestly about some of the weird things you'd see at Christmas dinner or some of the conversations, and you'd come back and go, well, why did Dandy, our other grandfather say that, Why did he yell about that? What was he talking about? We were always allowed to question and that fear element and the limitations on people's views of the world we would see and discuss and we were told, you have to do better than that. You have to live beyond that fear. You have to push yourself outside of your comfort zone. And I continue to try to do that, instill that in my kids and other kids to this day.

Yeah. But as you talk about fear, when I think about things that I think we had to subconsciously unlearn, was fear because you know, we grew up at a time and you know, just coming out of the deep segregation of Chicago. But our parents and grandpa parents grew up in it. You know, in a time when being black in the city, you know, you were isolated. There were areas of the city that you couldn't go into because you could be literally harmed killed as a black person. That was that was the truth of Chicago. As I noticed in my family, fear, the fear of what could happen to a black man, to a black person, kind of consumed some of our elders and stunted their growth. I mean Southside the grandparent that I talked about, he was kind of a mama's boy. You know, his mom our great grandmother, Mamma overprotected him and as a result, he never really got his own footing because he had a mom that was going to make sure you live at home. I'll take care of you. He also had limits as a black man because he was a carpenter who wasn't allowed to join the unions, couldn't afford to go to college. They were of the generation where even if you were smart and talented, the ceiling was real and the dangers were real. A lot of the reason our family was so close right was because the elders were keeping everybody close and they were slowly passing those fears on don't go down this street, don't go on this bus, maybe not take that job, don't try something new because it could kill you. I think our parents tried to actively unhook those those things from us by pushing us out. I think they knew that they had the tendency to suffocate their dreams because of these fears, to not try new things, to not draw outside of the lines. And I think they deliberately pushed us. So there were a lot of yes is in terms of experiences, exposures, Craig traveling on his AAU basketball league to other parts of the city, even you know, because in a city like Chicago, because of those fears, we had cousins that lived on the west side of the city. We lived on the south side of the city, in a neighborhood that was right along the lake near downtown Chicago. If you're a black kid growing up on the West side of Chicago, we met kids that had never been downtown. They had ever seen the lake. And if you've been to Chicago, to be from Chicago and never see the lake is a herculean effort. But you understand it when you're a black kid from the West Side and you viewed with suspicion. When you come downtown, you don't feel welcome outside of your neighborhood, so your world gets smaller and smaller. I think our parents did not want that smallness for us, and we saw how that smallness kept some really intelligent people in our lives in one spot. You know. They didn't move, they didn't grow, they didn't try new things. I had an aunt, my mother's youngest sister, who recently passed this year, who never came to the White House, and all the years that we were there, she never came. Why because she was afraid of flying, she was afraid of driving too long, She was afraid of doing anything but leaving her house and going to work and coming home. We saw that here, right, We saw that, and you have to actively tell yourself a different set of messages about what you can expect from the world. And we also could have been limited by that because while it physically limited some of our relatives, some of our grandparents' perspectives, like many people in this country, they were backwards thinking, you know, their views of white people and who they could trust. You know, the same south Side never went to the doctor because he didn't trust doctors, so he you know, he never went to the dentist. That's probably why he died in his seventies. He didn't have a tooth in his head, but he would never go to the dentist, you know. And we would talk about these things around our immediate kitchen table because our parents wanted us to learn from the mistakes that they had made and others. And that was the power of that householders. Our parents talk to us very openly and honestly about some of the weird things you'd see at Christmas dinner or some of the conversations, and you'd come back and go, well, why did Dandy, our other grandfather say that, Why did he yell about that? What was he talking about? We were always allowed to question and that fear element and the limitations on people's views of the world we would see and discuss and we were told, you have to do better than that. You have to live beyond that fear. You have to push yourself outside of your comfort zone. And I continue to try to do that, instill that in my kids and other kids to this day.

I mean, that's such a profound thing to reflect on when thinking about what on Leine, because it's so as you said, it wasn't both of you us, but especially this is something that isn't going to change based on a mindset because it exists. Yeah, in reality, did either of you ever have any close calls or run ins that, oh yeah, that you would like to share?

I mean, that's such a profound thing to reflect on when thinking about what on Leine, because it's so as you said, it wasn't both of you us, but especially this is something that isn't going to change based on a mindset because it exists. Yeah, in reality, did either of you ever have any close calls or run ins that, oh yeah, that you would like to share?

For all.

For all.

You were got tenure, I was.

You were got tenure, I was.

I was probably more like twelve because I could ride to Rainbow Beach, so figure out.

I was probably more like twelve because I could ride to Rainbow Beach, so figure out.

Seventh grade ish a department store near.

Seventh grade ish a department store near.

Our house called Goldblatz had a sail on ten speed bikes to kind with the handlebars that go under that was brand new back then. They were yellow and they sold a ton of them, and you got one.

Our house called Goldblatz had a sail on ten speed bikes to kind with the handlebars that go under that was brand new back then. They were yellow and they sold a ton of them, and you got one.

I got one to give your first ten speed bikes.

I got one to give your first ten speed bikes.

And it had to I must have gotten it for my birthday, so it was probably around this time of the year. But it didn't come with the clamps to hold the cables along the yoke. So my mom used these twist ties that she got from the baggies that you would put stuff in before you had the zip lock. You had these bags and then you put these green and white twist twisty ties on it. So she put them on my bike. And there is a point to this, I'm wondering what it is. So so I'm riding my bike by myself down seventy fifth Street, which if you head east you run right into Lake Michigan. And I'm almost there and a policeman comes up to me while I'm riding and I'm on the sidewalk and he's in the street, turns his lights on, tells me to pull over, and I stop, and I was like, officer, how can I help because I'm always happy to see a policeman. My uncle's a policeman, and you know, officer friendly in school. And he said, where'd you get that bike? And I said, oh, I got it for my birthday. I just got it. I mean, take a look at I was proud of it. I was like, this is my new ten speed bike. He said, you stole that bike. Now, this was a black police officer, and I was like, no, no, and it was it was so out of the realm of my mind to be accused of stealing a bike. I wasn't even worried at first. I just said, no, no, listen, you got it all wrong. This is a brand new bike that I got. And he was like, I know, you stole that bike. And he was basing it on the fact that someone who had bought a similar bike had it stolen and their mom used twist ties to put them on the cables.

And it had to I must have gotten it for my birthday, so it was probably around this time of the year. But it didn't come with the clamps to hold the cables along the yoke. So my mom used these twist ties that she got from the baggies that you would put stuff in before you had the zip lock. You had these bags and then you put these green and white twist twisty ties on it. So she put them on my bike. And there is a point to this, I'm wondering what it is. So so I'm riding my bike by myself down seventy fifth Street, which if you head east you run right into Lake Michigan. And I'm almost there and a policeman comes up to me while I'm riding and I'm on the sidewalk and he's in the street, turns his lights on, tells me to pull over, and I stop, and I was like, officer, how can I help because I'm always happy to see a policeman. My uncle's a policeman, and you know, officer friendly in school. And he said, where'd you get that bike? And I said, oh, I got it for my birthday. I just got it. I mean, take a look at I was proud of it. I was like, this is my new ten speed bike. He said, you stole that bike. Now, this was a black police officer, and I was like, no, no, and it was it was so out of the realm of my mind to be accused of stealing a bike. I wasn't even worried at first. I just said, no, no, listen, you got it all wrong. This is a brand new bike that I got. And he was like, I know, you stole that bike. And he was basing it on the fact that someone who had bought a similar bike had it stolen and their mom used twist ties to put them on the cables.

So he wouldn't believe me. And so now I'm getting worried.

So he wouldn't believe me. And so now I'm getting worried.

And he picks up my bike and puts it in the trunk of the car, puts me in the back of the car and says, where do you live?

And he picks up my bike and puts it in the trunk of the car, puts me in the back of the car and says, where do you live?

And I said, I told him where I lived, and he drove. I said, you'll realize this is my bike.

And I said, I told him where I lived, and he drove. I said, you'll realize this is my bike.

We can go right to my mom's, right to my house. So we pull up to my house and by this time I'm in tears. I'm just beside myself. I ring the doorbell, and my mom was worried because she knew I was gone for her long bike ride. She comes out and I said, the policeman has accused me of stealing this bike, and I'm in tears. He comes out and she said, wait inside. And I'm on our front porch looking out, or actually I'm upstairs looking down because we lived upstairs. I'm looking down and I see her and I can tell she is pissed, and she is talking to him like she would talk to us if we were in trouble, and all I can see is the policeman trying to defend himself. So after about twenty minutes, she yells up to the window, Craig, come down here, and she said, this policeman has something to say to you.

We can go right to my mom's, right to my house. So we pull up to my house and by this time I'm in tears. I'm just beside myself. I ring the doorbell, and my mom was worried because she knew I was gone for her long bike ride. She comes out and I said, the policeman has accused me of stealing this bike, and I'm in tears. He comes out and she said, wait inside. And I'm on our front porch looking out, or actually I'm upstairs looking down because we lived upstairs. I'm looking down and I see her and I can tell she is pissed, and she is talking to him like she would talk to us if we were in trouble, and all I can see is the policeman trying to defend himself. So after about twenty minutes, she yells up to the window, Craig, come down here, and she said, this policeman has something to say to you.

And this dude took.

And this dude took.

Off his hat and apologized for accusing me of stealing his bike.

Off his hat and apologized for accusing me of stealing his bike.

And as it turned out, they ended up finding the guy.

And as it turned out, they ended up finding the guy.

But it was you know, that's kind of the collateral damage of being a young black kid.

But it was you know, that's kind of the collateral damage of being a young black kid.

I just think about all, you know, what would have happened if my mom wasn't a stay at home mom. What if she had been in work when that happened. What if, you know, he didn't have a mom that you know would stand up for him, What what if? What are all the what ifs that that could have happened, And that, you know is you imagine you're just having a regular day and your son is pulled up to your house in the back of a police car at ten years old, at ten twelve years old.

I just think about all, you know, what would have happened if my mom wasn't a stay at home mom. What if she had been in work when that happened. What if, you know, he didn't have a mom that you know would stand up for him, What what if? What are all the what ifs that that could have happened, And that, you know is you imagine you're just having a regular day and your son is pulled up to your house in the back of a police car at ten years old, at ten twelve years old.

It was it was frightening.

It was it was frightening.

It was fright you know, And I think what she was incredulous was about was that he wasn't even inclined to believe this little boy, who was obviously articulate, didn't look you know, you don't even want to say didn't look like some little hood rat, because what does that matter? Right, But that was you know that that was unusual for us because we were good kids, I mean, and we lived in a neighborhood where their kids were getting into trouble all the time. And he knew all the kids because he was a basketball player. He knew the game kids and the drug dealers and the but everybody also knew him, you know. And you know, when you grow up in a neighborhood, people know the kids that are heading in the wrong direction and the kids who have promised. Everybody knew that Craig was a good student, he was a good guy, and the notion and I felt the anger too, It's like, how dare you do that to my brother? But he you know, he had a support system. He could have wound up in jail for stealing not stealing a bike. So yeah, that kind of stuff happened all the time, you know, walking into a department store as a young kid and having the the you know, salespeople wonder why you're there, and you're coming, you're an honor student coming from high school, you know, having lunch with your friends. I mean, they don't they didn't see that part. There were times when that part of us couldn't be We couldn't walk around saying valedictorian straight. A student, you know, speaks excellent, has excellent diction if you give them a chance. You know, we knew very early on that that no one was going to see beyond the color of our skin at an early age, and that could get you in trouble.

It was fright you know, And I think what she was incredulous was about was that he wasn't even inclined to believe this little boy, who was obviously articulate, didn't look you know, you don't even want to say didn't look like some little hood rat, because what does that matter? Right, But that was you know that that was unusual for us because we were good kids, I mean, and we lived in a neighborhood where their kids were getting into trouble all the time. And he knew all the kids because he was a basketball player. He knew the game kids and the drug dealers and the but everybody also knew him, you know. And you know, when you grow up in a neighborhood, people know the kids that are heading in the wrong direction and the kids who have promised. Everybody knew that Craig was a good student, he was a good guy, and the notion and I felt the anger too, It's like, how dare you do that to my brother? But he you know, he had a support system. He could have wound up in jail for stealing not stealing a bike. So yeah, that kind of stuff happened all the time, you know, walking into a department store as a young kid and having the the you know, salespeople wonder why you're there, and you're coming, you're an honor student coming from high school, you know, having lunch with your friends. I mean, they don't they didn't see that part. There were times when that part of us couldn't be We couldn't walk around saying valedictorian straight. A student, you know, speaks excellent, has excellent diction if you give them a chance. You know, we knew very early on that that no one was going to see beyond the color of our skin at an early age, and that could get you in trouble.

Yeah. I mean, when you talk about that fear, I'm sure that fear has been tested across your life in so many different places, and I wonder what would you say has been the most hardest recent test of that fear, Because it's not one of those fears that you kind of get over in it just goes away. It kind of shows its head in many different ways. I imagine.

Yeah. I mean, when you talk about that fear, I'm sure that fear has been tested across your life in so many different places, and I wonder what would you say has been the most hardest recent test of that fear, Because it's not one of those fears that you kind of get over in it just goes away. It kind of shows its head in many different ways. I imagine.

Well, in this current climate, for me, it's you know, what's happening to immigrants, you know, So it's it's not the fear for myself anymore. I drive around in a four car motorcade with a police escort. I'm Michelle Obama. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognized. So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the city. And now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't, and we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process, and you know that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was twelve. You don't look like somebody that belongs. You know, I can determine just by looking at you that you're you know, you're a good person, or you're not a good person. And knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kind of choices, I worry for people of color all over this country, and I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody. And that makes me, that frightens me. It keeps me up at night, and I know that there are and I see that when I'm driving around LA I'm just looking in the faces of folks who could be victim, and I'm wondering how are you feeling? How do you feel standing on the bus stop? Do you how do you feel comfortable going to work, going to school when you know that there could be people out here judging you and who could up end your life in a second. You know that that's who I worry for right now?

Well, in this current climate, for me, it's you know, what's happening to immigrants, you know, So it's it's not the fear for myself anymore. I drive around in a four car motorcade with a police escort. I'm Michelle Obama. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognized. So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the city. And now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't, and we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process, and you know that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was twelve. You don't look like somebody that belongs. You know, I can determine just by looking at you that you're you know, you're a good person, or you're not a good person. And knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kind of choices, I worry for people of color all over this country, and I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody. And that makes me, that frightens me. It keeps me up at night, and I know that there are and I see that when I'm driving around LA I'm just looking in the faces of folks who could be victim, and I'm wondering how are you feeling? How do you feel standing on the bus stop? Do you how do you feel comfortable going to work, going to school when you know that there could be people out here judging you and who could up end your life in a second. You know that that's who I worry for right now?

What do you both do with that fear? Because I think that's very real and a lot of people listening probably feel very similarly to both of you as well. What do you do with it? Because it almost feels overwhelming, and especially for someone going through it as you're talking about with your daughters too, it's not something that you rationalize, and you know it's not the same as so many other fears, So what do you do with it?

What do you both do with that fear? Because I think that's very real and a lot of people listening probably feel very similarly to both of you as well. What do you do with it? Because it almost feels overwhelming, and especially for someone going through it as you're talking about with your daughters too, it's not something that you rationalize, and you know it's not the same as so many other fears, So what do you do with it?

See, I still have a couple of young kids at home, so I've got a fifteen year old and a thirty old, So I'm still in the education process for those guys. Because we you know, we live in a suburb and we have a relatively safe environment, so our kids aren't growing up with that kind.

See, I still have a couple of young kids at home, so I've got a fifteen year old and a thirty old, So I'm still in the education process for those guys. Because we you know, we live in a suburb and we have a relatively safe environment, so our kids aren't growing up with that kind.

Of fear that we had.

Of fear that we had.

But I have to make them aware of it because at some point they're going to be away from us and they're going to be in a place where they're going to encounter that. I'm trying to be as empathetic as I can, because that's how we were taught to deal with this kind of behavior. Our mom always said, just put yourself in the other guy's shoes. He's probably had a bad upbringing, an ignorant upbringing. His folks didn't know anything, and that's how I always view people who treated me with disdain because of my race, or because of where.

But I have to make them aware of it because at some point they're going to be away from us and they're going to be in a place where they're going to encounter that. I'm trying to be as empathetic as I can, because that's how we were taught to deal with this kind of behavior. Our mom always said, just put yourself in the other guy's shoes. He's probably had a bad upbringing, an ignorant upbringing. His folks didn't know anything, and that's how I always view people who treated me with disdain because of my race, or because of where.

I'm from or anything.

I'm from or anything.

And I'm trying to help my even my older kids who are thirty three and twenty nine, they're pretty much formed and are handling things on their own. But it's a good reminder to talk about this and put some coping strategies together for especially our teenagers, because they're going to they're going to encounter this at some point.

And I'm trying to help my even my older kids who are thirty three and twenty nine, they're pretty much formed and are handling things on their own. But it's a good reminder to talk about this and put some coping strategies together for especially our teenagers, because they're going to they're going to encounter this at some point.

I have to practice reverse messaging in my own head about this stuff, because you can get locked in the disappointments of what is happening right now, and you can sit in it and let that eat you up, and it can taint your view of so much. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. You know, I had to remind myself and put myself in situation that reminded me the ideals and beliefs that I disagree with are not pervasive that you know, there are a lot of good people out there. Again employing empathy, but also reminding myself of the truth of what I've seen and I've experienced that We're in a confusing time, but it doesn't help me and it doesn't help the country for me to grow cynical in that space. So I kind of view it as it's a duty as a citizen to not do the same thing that they're doing and start making assumptions about people based on my anger and fear. You know that I have to assume that most people are trying to do the right thing, that deep down inside, the vast majority of us do not want to see our neighbors and our friends and relatives live in fear. They just don't understand what it feels like to be the target. But if they knew, they would understand, which is why communication and conversation is so important, because maybe if I can tell a story, you know, if I can if I can help them be in the shoes of someone and that it can have that same empathizing effect that I'd rather use that rather than become to become discouraged and then suspicious and just be the you know, just do what they're doing. I don't want to become that. So it's a constant reminder, do not slip in to that behavior yourself.

I have to practice reverse messaging in my own head about this stuff, because you can get locked in the disappointments of what is happening right now, and you can sit in it and let that eat you up, and it can taint your view of so much. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. You know, I had to remind myself and put myself in situation that reminded me the ideals and beliefs that I disagree with are not pervasive that you know, there are a lot of good people out there. Again employing empathy, but also reminding myself of the truth of what I've seen and I've experienced that We're in a confusing time, but it doesn't help me and it doesn't help the country for me to grow cynical in that space. So I kind of view it as it's a duty as a citizen to not do the same thing that they're doing and start making assumptions about people based on my anger and fear. You know that I have to assume that most people are trying to do the right thing, that deep down inside, the vast majority of us do not want to see our neighbors and our friends and relatives live in fear. They just don't understand what it feels like to be the target. But if they knew, they would understand, which is why communication and conversation is so important, because maybe if I can tell a story, you know, if I can if I can help them be in the shoes of someone and that it can have that same empathizing effect that I'd rather use that rather than become to become discouraged and then suspicious and just be the you know, just do what they're doing. I don't want to become that. So it's a constant reminder, do not slip in to that behavior yourself.

I love that. I think that's such optimistic, hopeful, powerful mindset. And you're so right, because if we all become cynical and skeptical and negative, it only makes it worse for us and worse for everyone around us.

I love that. I think that's such optimistic, hopeful, powerful mindset. And you're so right, because if we all become cynical and skeptical and negative, it only makes it worse for us and worse for everyone around us.

Yeah, let me tell you I can. I can, and I can be cynical, and I can be all of that. And I don't want to set myself because in these times it's hard. No one is perfect. But I try to keep that to my kitchen table, you know. I mean, I feel like when you have a platform and you have a voice, there is a responsibility to use that wisely. So yes, I yes, even I in going high, there are times I want to go low and I need to let that out. But I'm never going to let that out in public because that's not even fully truly, how I feel, you know, so just for our listeners and viewers, it's like, yes, of course we all feel it. It's just a question of how do we act on it.

Yeah, let me tell you I can. I can, and I can be cynical, and I can be all of that. And I don't want to set myself because in these times it's hard. No one is perfect. But I try to keep that to my kitchen table, you know. I mean, I feel like when you have a platform and you have a voice, there is a responsibility to use that wisely. So yes, I yes, even I in going high, there are times I want to go low and I need to let that out. But I'm never going to let that out in public because that's not even fully truly, how I feel, you know, so just for our listeners and viewers, it's like, yes, of course we all feel it. It's just a question of how do we act on it.

And you hear this, This is why we're doing imo, yes, right, It's just to be able to take the lessons we've learned and the experiences that we've gone through, and hers being at the level of the White House and mine being what they are sort of I'm still the regular guy in the family. We're hoping that we can share some of these with folks and learn some things from the people that we have on Like you, just listening to her do that, this is the most fun I am having, other than hanging with my kids and my family. I just get goosebumps when when you hear some good wisdom.

And you hear this, This is why we're doing imo, yes, right, It's just to be able to take the lessons we've learned and the experiences that we've gone through, and hers being at the level of the White House and mine being what they are sort of I'm still the regular guy in the family. We're hoping that we can share some of these with folks and learn some things from the people that we have on Like you, just listening to her do that, this is the most fun I am having, other than hanging with my kids and my family. I just get goosebumps when when you hear some good wisdom.

Oh yeah, I mean that totally, like you know it just it was just such a refreshing take on what I was saying, was is a valid concern, is a natural feeling that people are having. But to flip the script in our own minds as to how we deal with it and that constant battle that we have to have with the thoughts in our head. And I love what you're doing with im I mean, I was so grateful to be a guest on the show and to visit you both in Martha's Vineyard, which was last year.