You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon.
Today, I talk to the one and only John Legend. John has garnered 12 Grammy Awards, an Academy Award, a Golden Globe Award, a Tony Award, and an Emmy award making him the first black man to earn an EGOT. During the course of John's career, he has released seven celebrated albums. His eighth studio album, Legend, which was released on September 9th, is out right now. John recently began the second leg of his critically acclaimed Las Vegas residency entitled Love in Las Vegas, which runs through October. And his MasterClass on songwriting has just been released.
John openly shares his amazing journey as a songwriter, singer, and family man. We start the conversation with his childhood - from growing up in a Christina home, being homeschooled to transitioning into a public school and the challenges that come with it. Next, we dive deep into how community support plays a huge role in molding children outside of the home, the value of knowing what you want in life and finding the means to attain it and sticking to it, and the relentless pursuit of a career and build a family where love, care, and a safe space is prioritized.
The hurdles may have been tough and the path may be unclear at some point, but John’s story is telling us to believe in what we can do and remain passionate about the things we love to do.
What We Discuss:
Episode Resources
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When we first met, we were like very attractive to each other. It was it was our chemistry was great. But that level of attraction is more like infatuations at the beginning of a relationship, and love, when it is able to stand the test of time, it has to be deeper and more like a more real than that. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that join every week to listen, learn, and grow. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book Eight Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eight Rules of Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour. Love Rules Go to Jay shettytour dot com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. Now. I know you're here because you're fascinated as I am about creators, stories, people's backgrounds, walks of life, choices, they made decisions that change the trajectory of their journey, because you're trying to make the same in your life. And today's guest is someone that I had down as one of the names when I first started the show four years ago, nearly four years ago, and it was one of those people that I want to speak to you because I was a fan of his music for a long time, his journey, and I'm grateful that today we actually get to do this in person in my studio at home in LA And so I'm speaking about none other the one and only John Legend, who's garnered twelve Grammy Awards, an Academy Award, a Golden Globe Award, a Tony Award, and an Emmy Award, making him the first black man to earn an egot. During the course of John's career, he has released seven celebrated albums. His eighth studio album, Legend, which was released on September ninth, is out right now. I've been listening to it. It's beautiful. I can't wait for you to listen to if you haven't already. John recently began the second leg of his critically acclaimed Las Vegas residency, entitled Love in Las Vegas, which runs through October. So make sure you check that out. And I'm really excited because his master Class on Songwriting has just released, And if you don't already have a master Class subscription, make sure you grab one. I first got one when Bob Iger had his master class. That's what took me to the platform, and now John Legend has his own on songwriting. Sir John, welcome to the show. Great to see you, Great to meet you. Yeah, I'm excited for our conversation. Yeah, me too. I usually know people that are on the show, and I was like, this is we've never met. Yeah, we've never crossed paths, you know, and so it's always nice to I feel like this is the best way to get to know someone deeply and intimately do a podcast with them. When else would you have a situation when you meet someone and you have over an hour to talk to them and learn about them. Yeah, when was the last time you did that? Is that? When was the last time you sat down with I don't I don't know that I ever happened. Yeah, it's it's a blessing and it's it truly is. But I mean, I remember being a kid in London. I remember when we first heard your music and we're like, who is this person? At the time, I was listening to R and B and hip hop and rap, and then it was like, oh, this is very different, Like this isn't you know? It's hard to kind of pin it down into one of those genres. But I want to dive into your journey today as well a little bit, and I want to start with you being homeschooled. Yeah. When I when I was researching and reading, I was like, wow, I had no idea. Yeah. I was homeschooled by my parents, particularly my mother. We grew up in a very Christian home. My parents sent us to a Christian school for a couple of years. But it was a little expensive for them to send us to private school, but they still wanted us to have a very kind of Christian education. They decided that instead of sending us to this Christian school, They would basically take the curriculum from the school, use the books from the school, and the school had this homeschool liaison as well because a lot of Evangelical Christian parents like to use this method. We would work with the school, but my mom was our main teacher, and we were home a lot with her. We had, you know, friends in the neighborhood, relatives in the neighborhood, but yeah, we were with our parents and at the house quite a bit when most of our friends were going to public school and being around a bunch of other kids. Once your strongest memory from that time or something that you took away that has kind of stayed with you, because I find that homeschooling still a fairly small population, when yeah, it's very big in the Evangelical Christian community. What I remember from it, You know, I was very precocious, so I love to read. I loved to independently do whatever. You know, I would just want to advance past whatever I was supposed to be doing at the time. I was obsessed with like encyclopedias and dictionaries. I ended up winning the City spelling be during that time. So I was very precocious, wanted to learn everything. My mom had a typing textbook and I just decided I was going to learn how to type. I was taking piano lessons during this time, too, so I just wanted to learn everything and know how to do everything. What's something that you've been trying to learn more recently or where that mindset's kind of like carried through Well, I don't what would you like to if if you had the time. I should do more masterclasses. I should be a consumer more masterclasses, But yeah, I haven't done that recently. I do like to read a lot, and I'd like to just read about how the world works. I'd like to read about policy, and I'm very interested in, you know, how to craft a better society that's more loving and more generous and more just and more equitable for more people. And so I like to read books that kind of discuss some of these policy ideas and ways of thinking about the world. Yeah. No, that's beautiful, and it's true, like I feel like we all get so busy that it's hard to find time to keep learning. Yeah, I mean I haven't recently taken up anything where I'm like, I want to learn how to do this that I don't know how to do. I try to do it with guitar for a while, and then I just got so busy that I never like stuck with it. And I haven't had something like that recently that I've done. Maybe I should learn another language. Yeah, my friend did some DUELINGO no I worte for her. No, I'm with you too. I feel like, but it's fun looking back at like what was that in childhood that we loved and kind of reconnect it being good? You know, now that you brought it up, I'm like, why haven't I, you know, picked something I want to learn about. I always thought about should I go back to college and like take classes and just just randomly take classes where there's no pressure to get good grades, but just you want to learn something. Yeah, that'd be fun. Well that's a beautiful point that as an adult you actually get to go and learn something without the pressure of it to grades. Like my mom she's going to college right now. She never graduated and she decided she would just go. And you know, she's like almost seventy years old. That's amazing. What is what's her experience been? Like? She loves it, she really enjoys it. I think it's very like stimulating for her, and you know, she doesn't work, so it's like something to occupy her mind and to stimulate her mind, and she really is learning new things. That's amazing. So you went from being homeschooled to then being like and obviously there's many years in between, but being homecoming king, yeah, and that's like yeah, prom king pro gig. Sorry, we don't have problems in London. So you know where I grew up, So yes, I always missed that. I would watch Hollywood movies and I'd be like, why don't we get to have prom? Yeah, And so we never did that. But what was that experience like if then moving from like this very specific homeschooled culture, religious culture, institutional culture, and then transitioning like, talk to me a bit about that transition as a young adult or as a child. It was interesting because at the time, the impetus for us transitioning into public school was our parents getting divorced, and that the empatus for that really was it began with my grandmother dying. So my grandmother was very important in our lives. She was very important in my mother's life, and they made music together. They ran the church choir together and were very close, and when she died, it really sent my mom into a spiral mental health wise, and she ended up abusing drugs and just really becoming distant from our family for a while. During that period my parents got divorced, our world was being shaken in a lot of ways. And one of the ways it was being shaken it was We're like, oh, now we're going to public school after you know, an entire you know, ten years in my life where I didn't spend any time in public school, and you know, it was quite an adjustment coming from homeschool. And I also, because I was so precocious, I ended up being skipped two grades ahead because I tested out of the grades I was supposed to be in, And so I ended up starting eighth grade at the age of a sixth grader, and starting high school at the age of twelve, and graduating at the age of sixteen. So all of it was a bit you know, difficult, you know, socially adjusting, adjusting to my parents being divorced, adjusting to being in a public school setting when I had never been in one before. There were a lot of adjustments to make. That's why I'm always, you know, wary of the idea of homeschooling kids because the social development just isn't really there. But I figured it out. So I think music was always my way of helping me find ways to connect to people, because even though I was too shy to really strike up a conversation in person, I wasn't too shy to get up on stage. And once I got up on stage, it was my way of introducing myself to people. It was like, Oh, this is me, this is who I am, and I didn't have to break the ice with people because my music was my way of breaking the ice. It was like my social crutch, I would say at the time. It enabled me to make friends, enabled me to feel like some control over what I was doing. And I think when you feel like you have something you're really good at, it makes you feel a bit more empowered to do other things and to connect with other people, and to feel like you can take up space because you feel like, oh, I have something that I've shown everyone that I'm really good at. I think that is such a great point and I completely agree with you. I was a really shy kid growing up and massively interested and still am to this day in many circles. But my parents forced me to go to public speaking drama school, and so I would go for three hours a day, three days a week, so nine hours a week all year around. It's a lot of time. And as I improved in both those areas of my life, that's where I would feel at home. And now I started to have more confidence in different circles, and you could move that around. And I was speaking to my friend recently, one of my closest friends. His son's like ten years old, and he was saying that he's struggling with confidence, and I said, exactly what you just said. I was like, well, have you helped him get good at something? I was like, you know, what is he interested in? What's he naturally gravitating towards that he could be encouraged in further because that would empower him, as you said, And I think that's such a beautiful thing, because we don't know what to validate ourselves through whom we're kids. But hearing you reflect back couldn't make sense. But I'm guessing at that time there was a lot of stress. I mean, being a young kid whose parents are divorcing, like like you said, like your mother's also experiencing mental health and drug abuse. Like, how were you making sense of that? Like? What helped you? It was hard to make sense of it, and I parted my way of dealing with what was going on with my mother was to try to ignore it, honestly, and so I would pour myself into school, pour myself into music, pour myself into these things that kept me busy, so I didn't think about everything was happening in my family. And my dad did a great job of, you know, helping us, guiding us through it. We had a lot of extended family in our community, cousins, aunt's, uncles who helped fill in the gaps as well. And then we had people at school. I had a guidance counselor who he was one of the only black men that worked at my school, and he really like decided to take me and my older brother under his wing and just was really helpful and just figuring out school, figuring out how to get into college, all these other things that my parents didn't really know how to help us with. We just were fortunate to have other people fill in the gap. You know, they say it takes a village to raise a child. And I think a lot of times when your parents aren't able to give you everything that you need, it's good to have other people in your life that can do it. Yeah, especially especially now, I feel like I feel like there's so I'm not a parent yet, and of course you are, but it's like there's so much pressure on two people to be everything, yeah, to these new human beings, and what you realize is that you know, you don't have to be everything. It's great to have other people around you a village or community. That's one of the things that was so difficult about the pandemic was that feeling that you didn't have that, you know, community support that most people normally have, that feeling of being disconnected and set rating from a lot of people, despite all the technological ways that you can get in touch with them. It's nice to be in presence with people, and I think when people didn't have that. We're seeing the results of it with a lot of kids learning loss and falling behind in school. And there's a lot of things that you just can't do remotely that you need that community support to do. Yeah. No, absolutely, I want I want to give a shout out to our community for staying with us through the pandemic because for me, sitting with someone like this face to face, even for an interview, it's like the connection that you have with someone as opposed to through a screen. Yeah, it's just incomparable. It's different, and we made the most of what we had to do during that time, but clearly it's preferable to be in person. And I think particularly for kids as they're trying to learn, they need them. Yeah, did you have to? You said? Then? I think you're so right. Like as kids, we ignore stuff like that, We try and avoid it. We try, and you know, we have to. And I loved where you said you poured yourself into you music and hold yourself into school. And that's why outlets, artistic outlets are so fantastic to have as young people. Did you ever have to revisit it? Did you feel like it naturally just improved, there were changes, or did you ever have to revisit that as an adult to be like I, did you ever feel the need for any healing or did you feel that just naturally kind of came to a question. So we needed to heal. We needed to forgive our mother because we felt abandoned by her. Well, she eventually got sober, came back to her family, she healed in a lot of ways as well, and you know, recovered in a lot of ways. And we still had to deal with forgiving her though, because I think when you feel let down by your parents, part of what you need to do for your own growth is figure out how to forgive them and how to love them and not be held back by whatever resentment or anger disappointment you might feel, because if you continue to hold on to it, it actually hinders you as much or more than it hinders anyone else. The person that may be the object of your forgiveness, that's great to forgive them, but it's just as important for you because that's the best way for you to go on and live the best life that you can live, is to get that weight off of your shoulder that you're holding on too. Did you know there are currently over two point four million podcasts in the world, including the one you're listening to right now. It takes a team of people to help bring these podcasts together on purpose as a whole group of talented people who work on producing, editing, and managing the show, and the show wouldn't be possible without the team of people working together behind the scenes. Needless to say, hiring the right people for these roles is important, and whether you're hiring for a podcast or you're growing your business, there's only one place that makes it easy, zippercruiter, and now you can try it for free at zip recruiter dot com forward slash on purpose. 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And then when they when we realize they're not infallible, and then they fall from grace in our eyes, I think the disappointment is even greater. Yeah, but I love that point you're making that there's there's two sides, and you got to experience the beauty of your mother's growth and transformation and change. But it's like that person's like I'm back, yeah, and you're like, oh okay, you don't know, like you've gotten used to dealing with not being with them and not having them in your life. And my parents got remarried during this time and that was weird. Um, So it was like a lot of dealing with all those feelings, dealing with forgiveness, wondering how to adjust to having that person back in your life, all of that. It was It was very interesting. Yeah, mine was kind of the the opposite, where like I was encouraging my parents as a ten year old to get a divorce. So I was seeing and experiencing, and they would both tell me about what was going on. I'd be like, I think you guys should separate because I want you both to be happy. Yeah, and we'll be happy. And then they stayed together until like three years ago. Okay, they never separated until now, and I feel like there's so much happier and fulfilled because of it. But they were thinking they were staying together for the kids. Yeah, and as a kid, I was like, no, no, no no, no, no, Like, I don't think that's so interesting. Well, yeah, I think when my parents got divorced both times it was the right thing. They got divorced twice, so they're not together now. Yeah, my dad's remarried and my mom hasn't. But both times I think it was the right thing to do. I wasn't actively encouraging it when I was younger. It was traumatic for me when I was younger, but it was the right thing to do. Yeah, how are you finding that now being a parent yourself? Like, are the what are the parts of this journey that kind of influence your approach now? Because you are aware that we are not perfect, any one of us. Yeah, I'm aware we're not perfect, but I do feel I think and I both really believe in the idea of creating like stability in our home for our kids, showering them with love and encouragement, teaching them about what it means to be kind, what it means to be loving, what it means to be generous, what it means to be passionate about something and pursue it. All those things we want for them, and we want them to see in us a loving relationship that teaches them what love is supposed to feel like and what it's supposed to be like. I want us to be a great example of what love means for them and how they should expect a partner to treat them, how they should treat their partner. I want to be a good example for them, and I think Chrissy does too. And yeah, I don't want to get divorced. I know that, Yeah, I really truly you know, And you've come from a situation where you're like, well, they should have gotten divorces, the right thing for them to do. But also I'm like, oh, I really want a stable home for our kids, and I want them to be surrounded by love and to see in us an example of what love means, and hopefully we can maintain that for decades and decades to come. Like I want to ask to be grandparents, having them over for Sunday dinner, and like I want that for us. Yeah, I wish that for you too. Definitely, that's beautiful and I don't disagree with you. I think the point you made this is so clear that you want what stability means. And I think what sometimes I don't don't recognize as staying together is unstable. Sometimes it is sometimes yeah, but there's always gonna be some unstability instability, of course. But I think that's the challenge. Like we usually see togetherness as stability and breaking up as instability, but often if two people are together but it's causing more stress for everyone else, that's true. And there's definitely circumstances like that. Yeah, God forbid that happens to us. No, no, no, yeah, definitely know. And by the way, it's so interesting what you're saying, because I literally just spoke. I just interviewed doctor Gaba Matte, and he's like a healing and trauma expert and researcher. He's like in his seventies, I think, right, And so he's been doing this his whole life, like looking at trauma, looking addiction, looking at children, and he literally just said what you just said where it's like you can't love your kids too much, like you know, giving them a safe, loving environment. And I think for a long time I confused love and safety and I realized like safety was really what you needed as a child. Yes, you really do. Yeah, I really truly believe that. And we want to have them feel safe and surrounded by love and care. It doesn't mean you don't want to allow them to make mistakes, but you do want them to feel like they can make mistakes in safety. And I think when people feel unsafe, it contributes to fear, contributes to trauma, and a lot of things that make their responses unhealthy as they get older, because if they're dealing with so much fear and danger in their lives, it affects the way they respond to stimuli. It affects the way they deal with fight or flight and all these things that kind of these mechanisms at your body has to deal with trauma and fear, Like if they get activated too much, then it's hard for them to cope with life. Yeah, absolutely, When when someone's as exceptional as you are, what you do I want to hear about, like what was the hardest part about getting that good? Like what was the When was it challenging to pick up an instrument or learn an element of music? Like what was the was there ever or what did it? Just? Was it just so natural and effortless that it's always been that way? There's always effort, And I think part of it is like figuring out what you want to specialize in, what you want to do really well. Like I played the piano pretty well, but I'm not like an expert concert pianist, Like I've seen what they can do and I can't do it. And I got good enough at the piano to accompany myself, to accompany others to write and to perform live. But people that focus on playing the piano are much better at playing the piano than I am. What I've chosen to focus on is being the best singer songwriter that can be. So I spend a lot of time focusing on my voice, focusing on songwriting. So those are the two most important things for me, and those are the things that I spend the most time and energy on and it's not easy to write songs and it doesn't come automatically. But I've developed ways of getting getting to that point where I'm pretty good at writing a song and even my worst songs are pretty good. That didn't come automatically, though. It came through like just writing a lot, listening to a lot of music, but also writing a lot of music and trying different ideas, seeing them work, and collaborating with other people who push me and bring out the best to me and give me new ideas. All of that made me a better writer. But it wasn't easy and it wasn't automatic. Yeah, there's often a perception that people have that the way you write songs or whatever is that when someone's going through emotional turmoil, their artistic expression is heightened, and then when their external circumstances are less stressful, it can be harder to find creativity. Is that true? Is that accurate? Or have you found that you can always or you have a method to always tap it? Because your songs are like your lyrics are highly emotive. Your songs are about real issues in your life. It doesn't matter whether your external life has changed. How have you continue to be able to access that because I think some people think, oh, when my life was hard, I wrote my best music, and now that my external life is simpler. Because there's no easy life. My external life is simple. I kind of find it hard at access. I've gotten so experienced at writing that I can turn it on pretty much at any point. But one of the ways I do that is by bringing other people in the room, and so that way you're not always relying on your own inspiration, which may be hard to summon sometimes. And I think because I've been such a promiscuous collaborator, it enables me to stay refreshed as as a creative person, because even if I don't immediately have an idea, I could be in a room with someone who does, and then I can bounce off of that, build on that, and we can create something together. And then also have quite a bit of methodology around my songwriting that makes it easier for me to tap into my creativity and tap into that inspiration so that when I have it, I'm able to go from inspiration to completion in a way that's tried and true for me. And that's why I spend a lot of time on in the master classes, just explaining, you know, like this is my methodology for writing a song. The inspiration is going to come from different places. Sometimes it comes just from I dream about a song and I sing it into my phone and and remember it that way, record it for later, and then go to completion when I go back to the studio and like sit down to write. But either way, the inspiration is going to come at some point. Sometimes it's just a riff that somebody else plays or a beat that someone else plays, and then it leads me into a vocal melody, and the vocal melody leads me into like a feeling of like, this is what this song feels like to me, This is what the story is that I want to tell. And then I know how to build a song pretty easily from those kind of seeds of ideas. And yeah, that's what I spent a lot of time on the master classes, just teach that once you get this seed of an idea, here's how you take it to a complete song. And it works really well for me because it makes it so that I can write once I have the idea right pretty quickly. Yeah, And I think I want to unpack that for everyone because I think from anyone that I've sat down with who I believe is extreme high, extremely high performing in their space. Obviously everyone on a masterclasses at that level in their field. And then when I've sat down with people like Kobe Bryant as well, or like Novak Djokovic or Jennifer Lopez, is like everyone always talks about this balance with what you're saying perfectly is like there's inspiration and then there's regulation, there's like actual methods, processes, structure. It's like we all think that there's a magic moment, which it sounds like there is, then that magic needs to turn into a method, yes, in order to actually turn into something beautiful. Absolutely, And the people that you were referring to, like Kobe, he was so naturally gifted, so he had this god given gift to be this amazing athlete. But he took the gift which some people have and don't maximize it like he did. He took that gift and worked so hard, practice so hard, It spend so much time in the gym, Like there needs to be more to your your ability than this natural ability. It needs to be cultivated, it needs to be honed, it needs to be practiced, and with songwriting, I've gotten to that point where it's not just oh I have a gift for music, Oh I can sing, Oh I have a good ear, it's oh I've spent a lot of time honing my craft as a songwriter, and it helps me figure out how to take this idea and make it a song that works. Yeah, and I love how everyone's different, Like I completely agree with you. Like when I'm doing this, it's like, even though I'm not in the same field as you, you could say something, I'm like, oh that I need to do more of that. I think I mean and when you when Kobe passed, I spend a lot of time just thinking about just like what it takes to be someone like him, and I think it really inspired me. It's like you really like, if you want to be great, if you want to be like world changingly great at something, you got to put in the time and energy to do that, and it can be inspiring to see examples of that in the world and then say, yeah, I want to be more like that. Yeah. Well, even when you're giving the example of when you're in the studio and you're bringing people in, like for me, the podcast is like that like, I sit down with people that I'm not in the field of a tool, yes, and I get to do I'm like, oh, that's how they do in their field. How can I apply that yes to mine? And I think that's what Moss class does great. But because we had Russ on the wrapper and he was talking about the opposite where he was like, I don't like having anyone in the room with me because if people are in the room with me, then I don't get to be silly or I don't get to be totally expressive. So he said to us, he was like, I get rid of everyone and then I make weird sounds into the microphone to see what works for me. Whereas if my boys were that he would saying if my boys were there, he was like, they're all laugh at me. Yeah. And so I'm wondering, who do you like having around you that could you give us an example of some people that you've sat with it you're like, and they don't have to be even people that we know. They could be other people behind the scenes, but someone that you're like, oh yeah, when they're in the room, they kind of sparked me this way or that way. Well, I take his point as saying, you don't want people around that aren't totally bought in creatively, because you want people in the room that are in there to create something beautiful with you, and if they're there to be like, you're kind of what my senses, I don't know him, and I don't know his friends, but what I'm my senses that he's saying like he might want to be too cool around them, and if he's too cool around them, he may not come up with the best art. And I think it's important to have I don't have a random people in the studio when we write, Like I have only writers in the studio and we just sit there and vibe off of each other and see where the vibe take says, and hopefully everybody's bought in to the idea that we just want to make something amazing and something beautiful and something interesting and something that's a great song. And they're not worried about being cool, not worried about anything else other than let's make this great. That idea of being around people that you're okay to make mistakes around, fearless around, Like that's the kind of people you want in the room. And we just try things, and I try not to have an ego about my ideas. So that means if like I do a thing called a mumble track, usually where I just mumble a melody and see if we like it, and some of the other writers in the room may do the same thing, and I'm like, oh, I like their idea better than mine. And I think you need to have that openness to other people's ideas, that humility when you're a collaborator. And so I think part of what I'm really good at is that spirit of collaboration. So I understand that all the great ideas don't need to come from me, and that I can benefit from this other energy and creativity in the room and be open to it, you know, be humble enough to receive it and not think that it all has to come from me. Yeah, egolesseness is hard though, Like that's like especially as you become more successful, Like I think that's something people struggle with because you have to trust yourself to some degree. So how did you well? I think So the interesting about ego is like the people that you think of that have big egos also very insecure. So it's like it's a very interesting thing about that combination of the inflated ego and the heightened insecurities at the same time, and it can be very debilitating when that's the issue, because a lot of times when you hear, well, this artist, whenever they come, they won't let you look at them. They want this and that. And what I hear when I hear that's not although they think so much, so highly of themselves, I think all they're pretty insecure probably, and so it's interesting thinking about that and what that means and what they kind of I don't know what the psychology is behind that, but it's an interesting combination that I've observed in the world is that people that are seen as having big egos and being difficult to work with are also usually pretty insecure exactly. I think you're spot on. When I started the show, when I started interviewing people, I noticed that too, where there was natural social anxiety and a lot of people were just so used to being on when the camera was on that that's when they came into full force. But then when the camera was off, it's not that they didn't care, it's that they didn't even know how to connect because they've been so trained in that way, and so you're right. I think it's so interesting that from the outside we could be that all that person as an ego or they're being arrogant, or they you know, they have a they're braggadocious, or they have a bravado, but it's not that it's Yeah, my assumption is that they're probably insecure. That's usually my assumption. Yeah, yeah, no, that's what I said. I'm going to give you a bit of context before this next question because I so my wife been married for ten years now, sorry, married for six he has been together for ten years, and she my team was looking at the other day she was reading a book and they were like, oh, what are you reading because she'd taken the cover off and they can tell. And she's like, oh, I'm reading my husband's book. Is in my book, which I wrote two years ago now two and a half, two years ago, And they were like, what have you not read it? Like most of my teams read the book and she had it and they're like no, no, she was like, no, I never got around to it, you know, I read bits. So like, so my question is I heard Chrissy said something similar where like she sees the name of a song and then she's like wondering, like, wait a minute, how did he call that the name of the song? Is she a number one? Five? Does she listen to everything or do you often find that like she's catching up with everyone else. Well, she doesn't love hearing like demo versions of songs, so she doesn't like to kind of be in the sausage making part of the album, and so she'd rather hear it once everything's done. And so that ends up meaning that she's like learning about things when you know, close to win, a lot of other people are learning about them too, and so yeah, there are times where she's like, oh news to me. Yeah, Yeah, she just doesn't like to be in early on the process because she's found I think from when we first started dating that when she fell in love with the demo versions, that we changed them so much that she didn't like, you know, kind of falling in love with the early versions because it kind of almost disappointed her when the finished version was out because she felt like less connection to it. So she decided she just didn't want to be involved early on in the sausage making or she has good reasoning. My wife didn't have time for me. But I find that's interesting in couples, right, the idea of like we were talking about being a good example as a couple and trying to build that loving relationship. Like I find that in an immature stage in my relationship, I constantly wanted my wife to be my number one fan. Uh, Like there was a time where I was like I wanted to read everything and listen to everything and one everything and share everything and like this I'm talking about like maybe like seven eight years ago. And then as time went on, I just started to realize I was like, well, she's not with me for those things, right, Like she can support them and appreciate that, but she's living with the real me and is experiencing that. Like I guess my question is like, how do couples appreciate and admire each other in an effective way when often we just lead on our partner for validation and glorification often. Yeah, I still really want Chrissy to be into my work. I love it, and I think more so because like it just feels good to know that she has good taste and she loves music and that she likes something I did, Like, you know, I'm like that's awesome, and I want her to love it. And I respect her a lot and I trust her a lot, and I feel like she has good taste. So if she likes something I did and she especially likes it, then that's a really good sign for me. Yeah, so it feels good. Like it's not that I'm insecure about it, is that, like I really want her to love it, and I want everyone to love it, but I want her to love it more. I know I'm the same I was doing something recently, but but my wife's was the persson that will give you the most honest feedback. Yes, Like I will practice a presentation or whatever I'm doing in front of and she will just pick it apaw. But I know she's doing it. I love because she also wants me to be incredible at what I do. And we help each other so much, and we believe in each other and we support each other so much. So you know, when she's working on a cookbook, I'm you know, helping her, I'm tasting stuff, I'm doing whatever I can to help. And you know, we collaborate on a lot of business things together. So there's a lot we do together. But she doesn't like to be in the weeds of my music creating career, but she goes a lot of my shows. She always has feedback form you know, how we can put the show together better and be more effective, you know, set list and arrangements and different things like that. She has ideas about how it should look, and she's giving me great feedback over the years on that kind of stuff. So I'm always happy when she's proud of me, and when she's excited. That's when you know, I feel very like, Okay, we're doing something right here. Yeah, No, I feel them. I can relate to that too, Like like if I do something and my wife's happy, it's a different it's a different form of like my Vega show, like I'm so proud of it. But um, it was especially good for me to hear that she was so proud of it and and so excited to show her friends and you know, tell people about it, because that just it was like, it's a it's an extra good feeling when when she says that, Yeah, definitely, no, I relate. And I think the question came from I think it was when she said something about when she sold a song title I Don't Love You like I used Yeah, and that's an interesting song, great song. It's for a couple because it's like, um, when you go through things together, you learn more about each other, you grow, and it's not the same kind of love you had when you first met. When we first met, we were like very attracted to each other. It was it was our chemistry was great. But that level of attraction is more like infatuation at the beginning of a relationship, and love, when it is able to stand the test of time, it has to be deeper and more like a more real than that. We've been through enough to gather where it's like really fortified us and made us stronger, and those tests have made us grow together and and you know, realize things about each other that we didn't know. And going through all of that makes you be able to write and sing a song called I Don't Love You like I used to. It's it's different now, but it's better. Yeah. I love that song because I felt the same way. I was. Just like that is such a great title because you're like, oh, no, what's going on And then you're like, no, actually, it's true. And I think the challenge with love is that we we've been programmed to believe that it should stay the same. Yeah, we've been programmed to believe that you should go recreate your first date and everything should feel like your first date. And it's almost like, well, what if it got better? You know, what if there's more? What were you like when you met Chrissy? And how have you evolved you think, as a as a man, as a human, as a person, Like, what has evolved and grown about you in a positive way? Well? I think I was more selfish than like, I wasn't a great partner at the beginning of our relationship, even though I was very into her and very excited to be with her, Like, I was still selfish. I was in my you know, mid twenties, still like, you know, not ready to fully be like the committed partner that I am now. But you know, once you really figure out that you love someone and you're really like, love so much about them and you really want to make it work with that person, like you have to decide like I'm going to do the things I need to do to be a good partner in this relationship. And I've just grown as a person because of that too. Because when you stop being so selfish, when you think about not only the joy you get from a situation and the pleasure you get from it, but also think about your responsibility and your commitment in that situation. I think you just grow and you're mature, and that's you know. I think part of it's just a matter of time. You need time to become that person that you want to be. Think in your mid twenties, you're still dealing with impulse control, you're still dealing with selfishness, you're still figuring out what you want to do in your career. All these things are happening. But when you figure those things out, you can just be a better person in general. And I think it makes you better at other things too, when you're when you're able to understand that balance between what you're trying to get from a relationship but also what you need to give to make it work. Yeah, what did you think that you didn't value about her in the beginning? But today, like you're like, oh, I noticed that more now, Like I didn't even get that at that time because of my immaturity or earliness. Well, I feel like I've just learned so much about her personality, how she reacts to stress, how she reacts to life, how she can find a joke even in the craziest even in grief, like she's able to find humor, And like, I feel like you see so many things about your partner as you grow together and as you experience adversity together. And what I've seen from her just made me love her more and value her more. Like I think she's cooler now than I've ever thought she was. Like I just really have seen her in all kinds of situations. I just value her more and in awe of her more than I ever have been as beautiful. That's great. I wish the same for my marriage too. It's uh, I wish for everyone. Honestly. I love love. I went to two weddings this weekend. Wow, And and like I truly like I can when I'm at these weddings, Like I genuinely get emotional, and I genuinely feel like joy for this couple in embarking on this journey together. And I love celebrating that. I love um seeing it flourish and seeing people who are committed to each other make it work like I love it. Yeah, No, me too, I love love too. And I've just written a whole new book about Love. Yeah, it comes out next year. But it's like I officiated two weddings in the last twelve months, and the difference, the pressure and the honor of doing that. My whole thought person in my head is don't cry. Don't cry, because I love love so much and all I want to do is like cry and just like appreciate. I haven't had to officiate any weddings quite a few. Yeah, but yeah, I got emotional this weekend. And I think part of it as being a dad too now, because when I watched the bride's dad walk her down the aisle, I got super emotional. I was just thinking about my daughter and thinking about my son, and just thinking about, you know, just what it means to pour all this love into these little people and then to watch them grow up and experience life and find love. It was beautiful. That's amazing. I love that. I love that you mentioned grief, and then you the song pieces in the new album. There's there's the beautiful lyric let your Broken Heart Learn to Live in Pieces, and I just I literally just haven't stopped thinking about that because I think that there's so much about us that's constantly trying to get everything to fit and even with the heart, we're trying to become whole again. Like there's always that concept, but you're like, let your broken heart learn to live in pieces, Like where did that come from? Like that? Well, the idea of the song is that we never completely shed or forget this trauma that we may go through in life, this loss, this heartbreak, Like we'll remember it. There will be times when we'll feel those pangs of memory that it'll come back. Um. It doesn't mean you can't heal, it doesn't mean you can't recover, but it does mean that that grief will will still be a part of who you are, a part of your story. Effectively recovering from that means not forgetting it, not that it didn't happen, but learning to live with it and learning to continue to live with it and and and experience life and joy and pain and all the things that come in life afterwards. Um, continue to like live on, um, despite the fact that this grief won't ever leave you completely. Yeah, it's almost it's almost like we're asking the wrong question, where it was like how do I move on? How do I get over this? And you're saying, well, you're saying you're gonna I'm saying you're gonna carry it. It's it's it's part of your life now, it's part of your story, part of who you are, like I said with Chrissy, like I've seen so much growth through our grief and through our tragedy. It's always going to be part of who we are. And I'm fine with that. Like it's part of who we are, it's we carry it with us and it's okay. Yeah, and that and I'm sorry for your loss and I'm let you know that. I mean, I don't think there's pretty much anything harder to go through than Yeah, I've never been through anything harder. But it just means you know, when you live long enough, you're gonna go through something like that. And figuring out how to continue to live as you carry that with you is um is what the song's really about. Yeah, And often we find that those traumatic and difficult experiences can break people apart. But you you you focus on growing closer together. What do you think is that difference? Like you your values are so clear, I can tell this interview like values of children and a family, of love, of kindness, of connection, Like how do you and moments like that, is it that your values drive you forward or like how do you make sure? Because I think sometimes people just have experiences that derail the everything else that's going right. Yeah, And I don't know, because, like I think part of it is just we are We were already on a great foundation where we really respected and loved and enjoyed being with each other, respect to each other's values and the ways, you know, well, the things that we saw in each other's character that we fell in love with or still there. But I think you also have to like commit to working through pain, you know. Um, and I think we both committed to doing it, like doing the work that we needed to do to get through it. Yeah. No, I'm happy to hear that. And you know, my present thank you, Yeah, because yeah, And I think having already had two kids together was definitely helpful because they just bring so much joy into our lives and laughter and fun, and they they're a great focus for our energy. And so even when you're going through deep grief on losing and pregnancy, you still have these two beautiful babies that you love, and I think that was certainly helpful. Yeah. Now now the questions are moving into a selfish space where I'm asking just for me now, So how have you managed? Like what if you know you've abus said this beautiful relationship you've got, You've got two beautiful children that you both love, and you know, when I think about me and my wife, like, we also spend a lot of time saying, look, let's stabilize our relationship first before we think about having kids, because we don't want to invite beautiful new souls into a relationship where we're not sure where we're going or how we're working together. How have you managed to be so career focused and successful and keep relationship successful with this? Because I find a lot of people having children can be the most stressful time of their life. It's stressful. I mean, first of all, we're very fortunate. We have lots of people around us to help us. We can afford, you know, childcare, We can afford a lot of things that there are plenty of families that can't afford having that is no small thing, like those having help, having my mother in law around, having you know, grandparents around to help is like all these things are very helpful and they alleviate some of the stress and make it easier for parents to balance it. But yeah, I do think you have to be ready to take on that responsibility. I think a lot of times, you know, it's about figuring out is at the right time in both of your careers to do it, particularly for the woman, like, it can be very difficult to figure out when that can be because, particularly in America, we don't have a lot of leave that's available for maternal or paternal leave that's available for a lot of families, and there's all kinds of obstacles in the way that make it harder for people to be working parents. And so I think a lot of people are making decisions about when I have kids based on that, And that's a real, like practical consideration that needs to be figured out for you to be able to handle it, because a lot of the stress around parenting is around having the resources and the childcare that you need, and when that's not right, it can be stressful. It can be stressful in your marriage, it can be stressful in so many other things. And so yeah, it and and my prescription that all those things need to be in order is like a hard prescription to feel though, because it's like it takes resources it takes family, it takes you know, everything being aligned, and everything's not going to be perfect for so many families, and they're still going to want to bring a life into the world. And yeah, it's it's a challenge. Yeah, no, absolutely, And I think those things changing. I mean, yeah, when I was I was born and raised in London, and so when I worked there, like the maternity even the paternity was fantastic. I mean it could be even better, but it was great. It was like at least six months and then you could extend for another six months if you needed it. And it was not to be nerdy, but like, these are policy things that can affect people's decisions. You know, we're having a lot of conversation around reproductive rights and whether the state can force people to have kids. And what I think our conservative fellow citizens should realize is that people sometimes would like to have kids, but they're not in a place to be able to afford it or take care of it. And so if there are policy solutions like child tax credits, free childcare that would make it more likely that people would choose to have kids. And I think there's so many families that could use that kind of support, And I feel like one way that we could come together, conservatives and progressives to say, if you really believe in this idea that families are important as like a foundation for our society, and you want to do things to support people having children in their lives and building families, like, one way to do that is make sure they have the resources to make that choice in a way that they can handle it and their family can handle it. Yeah, is that one of the areas that you've been focused on, as you were speaking about earlier with has that been an area of focus for you? Well, this is something I think about all the time. So I think about it when it comes to our schools, making sure our schools have the resources that they need, making sure our communities have the resources they need. And it's kind of the impetus behind my entire political kind of inclination is how do we make our society more livable, more loving, more just, more equitable, And how do we support folks who don't have the resources they need right now? How do we make sure they get those resources? And so a lot of times my work has been about the criminal justice system, but what I like to do is point out the choices that we make around criminal justice, and how they are resource choices as well connected. Yes, they're more connected because because when we spend so much of our societal energy and resources and budgets on policing and locking people up, that necessarily precludes us from investing that money in other things. And so my advocacy work has really been around let's invest in these things that are edifying, that are building, that are productive, that are loving, that are just, and not invest as much as we have in the things that are more destructive and more about the state monopo realizing force and violence through policing and jailing people. Yeah, thank you so much for going to nerdy on us. It was good. We had to. No, it's important, you know, I think it's I think it is important to see the interconnectedness of a value of you know, family, man, children, and then how that actually scales up to an economy in a society, because we can have these in all small units, but it needs to change it. And I get into arguments, you know, with friends of mine who are I'm close with, and you know, they they'll see these news stories about crime going up and robberies going up, and and and they always kind of default to what we just got to punish people more like make them scared to do these kinds of things. And what I'm always thinking about is, well, how do we create a society where just less of that is happening. How do we create a society where people are healthier, they have the resources they need, they're not homeless, they're not addicted to drugs, and when they are, they're being treated and not punished. Like, how do we create society like that? And then a lot of these issues with violence and with property crimes and all these other things, they'll go down if we're investing in the kind of preventative measures that would make us healthier in general. Yeah. Absolutely, you were speaking about, you know, the journeys of people, like from everyone that you are homeschooled around or in your community, Like the journey that you've taken is that I'm guessing obviously that's very unique. It's very different when you when you look back on your life now, it's like a what's there? Like what keeps you going? And when you look back, what do you look back at and go? That was really special and that was beautiful, and that was something that I always cherished. What keeps me going well, part of it is just the joy I get from creating new things. It's a very like amazing sense of gratification that you get when you walk into a room and nothing exists except you know, loose ideas in your head, and then a few hours later, like you walk out with this new thing that exists. It's a song, And like that song could be the one that changes your life, it could mean something to all kinds of other people. I just at the wedding I went to one of the weddings I went to this weekend. Some guys said, I went to your show and it actually saved my marriage, and like, I could be writing that song then save someone's marriage tomorrow. And the fact that I get to go to work and create something brand new that didn't exist before is such a joy and I truly like I want to do it all the time. That keeps me going, And then being on stage is really exciting for me and fun. I love the connection I feel with the audience. I love when the show just feels like everybody's clicking on all cylinders. We're doing this together. We've got band members, dancers, singers, every body came together to put the show on, and we get it right, and we feel the energy from the crowd, and we feel the love from the crowd, and we're giving it to them, they're giving it back, and we feel this connection and this chemistry, this energy that we're all creating together. I love it. I truly love it, and I want to do it as long as as long as people will listen to me. Well, it's gonna be a long time. So who's someone that you spoke about collaborations. Who's someone that's no longer with us that you would have loved to have collaborated with in person or do you think it'd have like brought something out of you that Nina Simone. I'm a big Nina Simone fan. I named my daughter Luna Simone after her, and I have always loved her artistry and I would just love to jam with her. It would be so fun. She's such a great musician and had such a cool approach to arranging songs. She always did such interesting covers of songs too, like she would do like the definitive cover of so many songs, just because her musicianship and her point of view is so interesting. I would love to just soak in that for a little while. Yeah, And what about someone who's alive that you haven't collaborated with it yet, someone that you find inspiring in any field of music or anything. Kendrick Lamar I just hasn't happened yet. Like I've worked with almost every rapper in history, but Kendrick I'm truly a fan of. And I went to go see a show this weekend and love his new album, love all of his albums. I just think the lovel of artistry and care that he puts into everything is just so impressive. He's one of my favorite artists in any genre right now. I think he's just incredible. I love that when when you're working on an album, like how much? Because you're someone who works consistently on an album for a long amount of time before it comes out, right, there's not always new music all the time. What kind of in that creative process? Like how do you stay inspired in the ups and downs and the ebbs and flows of her long creative process which is ran now days? Like when you got someone like Kendrick, right, like everyone talks about Kendrick is someone who work on an album for a couple of years, which used to be the norm, and it's yeah, it's still a norm for me, Like, yeah, that's what I mean. Yes, Yeah, I feel like making an album is about a two year process for me, and I try to put them out every two or three years. But you're not always gonna be inspired every day, but there's always another day. And you know, most albums, you know, around an hour, a little bit less, a little bit more. I did a double album this time, it's an hour twenty minute. But like, over a two year period, I'm going to have enough inspiration to make an hour. Yeah that's right. So there will be days when you know you don't feel it. And like I said, one of my best ways of combating any kind of writer's block is having other energy around me and other creative people in the room so that I feel like I can get inspired by things that are outside of my own head. And so I think that's important. Scheduling the time to write, I think it's important rather than just kind of waiting around for inspiration randomly to hit because you need I think you need to actively summon that rather than just kind of hoping it'll you're gonna knock you over the head every once in a while. Yea, you need to actively summon it, and so for me, scheduling the time is important too. Yeah, do you have any like weird quirks or habits to help summon that moment, or like some kind of things that you need around you or any items or things you need to see or is it more like just scheduling, planning, structure. And then you want the inspiration to come, and like it could come from a movie you saw just a line from the movie. Inspiration could come from a song you listen to in the car on the way to the studio. Inspiration could come from just a random conversation you had where just this line like stuck out to you. And then, like I said before, a lot of us do collaboration. So a producer may come in and he have a track or she'll have a track and play it for you and it's just music, but it speaks to you and you'll feel something from it and then build a song from that. And so those are different ways the inspiration comes. Yeah, what's been the difference about the first day when you stepped into a studio like two now when you step in, like what were the emotions and the feelings. Then what's changed? What stayed the same? Well, I think I have a better understanding of what I want to do now when I go into studio. I think before I just had less creative confidence, I think, and I've earned it through just working. Yeah, like time, work, repetition. Like I've just written a lot, and when I walk into the studio now, I just feel like I know how to write a song. I knew how to write a really good song, and I just need to like work on it. I need to spend the time, spend the energy, and do all those things to get inspired, like I said before, and then I'll figure it out. Yeah, John, You've been so gracious with your time and energy. Thank you. I've loved this conversation. It's it's fine. We've gone everywhere, like we just we talked about relationships, to talk about children. Were talking about your childhood, Like it's been so beautiful. We end every episode with two segments. One's a fast five quick questions so one word to one sentence answers Max, and then I'll tell you a boy the other one, So John Legend, these are your fast five all right, questionable one. What's the best advice you've ever received. I love Quincy Jones advice, he says, still from the best. Nice. That means, you know, be open to being influenced and like take some of that. Listen to different artists that you love and like think about how to incorporate their artistry into what you do. And I think the more I know this is longer than a sentence, it's good. It's a good thing. The more the more you do it, Yeah, you just start to develop who you are. But it's informed and inspired by all your influences. Yeah, I love that answer. You're you're allowed. It's good, you're allowed to go. Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever heard or received? I don't know. I don't really catalog bad advice. One thing we laughed about was Kanye didn't like the title ordinary People for a song. Wow. Yeah, of course he changed his mind after while. Yeah, at first he was like, can you come up with a better But it went out that way. He never got changed, never changed, Yes, never got changed, but it was his He was like, can you come up with something better to say than that? But uh, eventually he fell in love with it and ended up directing the video for it, and uh and uh it became you know, obviously in a very important song at the beginning of my career. But we always thought it was funny that he was like, I'm not solding this ordinary people idea. I love that. Question number three, what's something that you used to value that you don't value anymore? Oh, I don't know. Well, I mean we just go through different phases in life. And I think I wanted like a certain kind of freedom when I was younger, Um, when I was a bachelor, and you know, you like treasure this kind of freedom and living like without as many commitments. But then you fall in love and you have kids with someone, and then like the commitment and the and the responsibility is like it's like it's life defining in so many ways, and you don't value that that kind of freedom that you thought you wanted before. Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. We've never never had that answer before. That's that's a special one. All right. Question or before the podcast is called on purpose? So how would you define your current purpose in life? My purpose is to bring love into the world. Um, it's so much the core of who I am artistically but also politically. I think love is like, I'm not religious. Love is my religion. That's beautiful. And fifthy final question for the fast five is if you could create one, one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be one law? We asked this to every guess. You're getting us the same questions as every guest. Oh, well, to love one another, yes, let's love yes. Yeah, it's a very Christian. It's like the part of our Jesus's uh two commandments were that you would love God and that you would love your neighbor as you love yourself. And if you think about that idea of loving your neighbor as yourself, um, it's a pretty powerful idea. And if that were to guide our behaviors and our politics and and and just the way we treated each other, it would be, you know, pretty good world to live in. Absolutely absolutely all right. And these these ones are going to be shorter. This is a segment called the Many Sides to Us And so again this can be one word for each one, literally one word. So what is the word to describe what someone would say about you me in you for the first time? Calm? Definitely, you were very calm when you came in today, would I would have to agree with it. We walked over, you were very calm. I don't have a lot of like highs and lows. I'm very even keel through life, which can be frustrating, like as a partner like Chrissy would like for me sometimes to be a little more dynamic. But I think you know, it's also like it's a gift and a curse because when you're going through like tough times and you need stability and you need a rock around you, I can be a rock. Well, that's why you need the humor in this spontane exactly. That's why we're good together. Yeah, that's my wife to my wife's the spontaneous one. I'm the even gil Well that works for us, all right. Question number two, what's a word to describe what someone would describe you that knows you very well? I think, honestly, so much much of how my friends will describe me as that I'm an even kil person, that I'm a calming presence, and that I don't have a lot of highs and lows. So I think people that first meete me, think that people that love me for a long time think that as well. That's good. That's not a bad thing, all right. Question number three, what is the word this time? You can't say the same one, okay, because you're gonna have the same one that the first two made sense? What is the word you'd used to describe yourself creative? I love I love to create and I love putting new things out into the world. Ye. What's the word that someone that maybe doesn't agree with you would say about you? Well, let me think with you, let me go to my Twitter mentions. Well, I think people that don't know me, Yeah, they know me. You know, they know that I called myself John Legend. That was assumed stage name. I wasn't born that, so they probably think I'm pretty arrogant. Um, you know, I don't think I am, but you know I could give off that sense that you know, I'm pretty arrogant, right, okay, all right? Question number five, the last one. What's the word that you're trying to embody? Love? Love? I love it Legend everyone. The master Class on Songwriting John Legend teaches Songwriting is available right now. I hope you go and subscribe to master Class. Genuinely, it is a phenomenal platform when you get access to all these incredible thinkers, leaders, teachers, guides when you sign up. As I said, I've been a subscriber since Bob Igers and I cannot wait. I can I become a good songwriter? John, That is the question, Even though that's a good question. I did Grael theory. I feel like there has to be some level of foundational musical understanding. Yeah, to use my class, but I think if you have that it can be really helpful. Well, I did grade five theory. I played piano up to grade four. Yes, and I used to play percussion, but I haven't done it since I was twelve. And you may need it like a collaborator, like an instrumentalist, like a guitarist or a pianist with you to help you kind of have some music theory because I can't in my class. I don't teach you a lot of like how to play the instrument, of course, but I teach you how to take the knowledge that you have and build a song from it. Absolutely, I love it, John Well. I hope we get to bump into each other again. Assure, Thank you man, Thank you so much, great time energy, great to meet you. Thank you, And everyone's been listening watching back at home or wherever you are. If you're on the move, make sure that you tag John and I on Instagram, on Twitter, on TikTok. Let us know what stood out to you, what you learned, what you gained. Maybe there were some amazing experiences that you didn't know anything about. I love seeing what you take away, what you learn. Make sure you share that with both of us and I'll see it the next episode.