Elliot Page ON: How to Turn Self-Hate Into Self-Love & Navigating Societal Gender Norms

Published Oct 23, 2023, 7:00 AM

Can self-hate be turned into self-love, and if so, where does this transformation start? 

How can we replace self-criticism with affirmations and begin prioritizing self-care?

Today, I have something truly special to share with you on the On Purpose podcast. We're about to dive deep into the incredible journey of Elliot Page, whose story is not just a memoir but a testament to the power of self-discovery and authenticity. 

Elliot Page is an Academy Award-nominated actor, director, producer, writer, and a New York Times bestselling author known for his indelible on-screen presence in both tentpole and art house films. Today we are talking about his memoir Pageboy which became an instant bestseller. 

Starting with a detailed exploration of life-changing memories, we journey alongside Elliot through a life-long experience that's beautifully reflected in this memoir. It's a story of resilience and growth, a reminder that we all have the capacity to overcome challenges and find our true selves.

Elliot's story sheds light on the importance of not letting societal conditioning dictate who we are. We'll explore how being true to yourself can lead to living the life you've always wanted. From struggles to self-discovery, we will discover the impact of authenticity and self-acceptance and how these can help anyone take pivots at the most crucial moments. 

And amidst it all, we'll touch on topics like community support, transitioning resources, and how parents can empower their children to express themselves.

In this interview, you’ll learn:

How to let go of self hate

How to appreciate your authenticity

How to develop self love

How to find your own voice

The importance of community support

The challenges when transitioning

How to deal with unsupportive people

This episode is not just about one person's journey; it's about the universal themes of self-love, acceptance, and the incredible strength of the human spirit. 

With Love and Gratitude,

Jay Shetty

What We Discuss:

00:00 Intro

01:58 Elliot's Memory Exploration 

03:46 Pageboy: A Memoir

06:16 Breaking The Mold Of Conditioned Reactions 

07:41 Living Your Dream Life

09:28 Fighting to Function In Your Own Pace

10:26 Let People Be Themselves

13:08 How Transition Shapes Your Profession and Life

15:15 The Positives of Being Grounded And Present

18:20 The Significance of Community Support

20:16 Resources for Transitioning Individuals

23:19 How Parents Can Aid In Self-Expression 

25:13 Misconceptions on Youth and Trans Health

28:43 Trans Men On Conversations About Masculinity

32:11 Empathetic Conversations With Other Trans People

38:09 Lessening the Burden of Feeling Alone

42:51 Connecting Through Stories

44:29 Balancing Alone Time And Forming Relationships

47:30 Living A Life With Limited Resources

51:40 Biographies And Intriguing Lives

53:04 Having A Moment Of Self Love

56:14 Elliot Page on Final Five  

Episode Resources:

Elliot Page | Twitter

Elliot Page | Instagram

Elliot Page | Facebook

Pageboy: A Memoir 

If you are interested in learning more in the topics we discussed today, below is a book list curated by Elliot Page: 
 
A Trans Man Walks Into a Gay Bar, Harry Nicholas
Amateur, Thomas Page McBee
Bellies, Nicola Dinan
He/She/They, Schuyler Bailar
Miss Major Speaks, Miss Major and Toshio Meronek
None of the Above, Travis Alabanza
Redefining Realness, Janet Mock
Surpassing Certainty, Janet Mock
The Risk it Takes to Bloom, Raquel Willis
The Transgender Issue, Shon Faye
Transgender History, Susan Stryker
We Both Laughed in Pleasure, Lou Sullivan

To be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like unset and in my trailer when I'm alone, wanting to tear my skin off. So the future, I think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day to day life. Everyone's sort of go to was your dream's coming true, Your dreams coming true, Your dream's coming true, Kate Winslet said to me, don't let them change you.

Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

The best selling author on the Post, the.

Number one Healthy Well inness podcast and Purpose.

With Jay Shetty, Welcome back to One Purpose. I'm so excited because I get to sit down with Elliott Page. Elliott Page is an Academy Award nominated actor, director, producer, writer, and the New York Times best selling author. Known for his indelible on screen presence in both tent poll and art house films, Elliott uses his global platform to shed light on important social and LGBTQ plus issues. Up next, Elliott will starr in Close to You, which will have its world premiere at the twenty twenty three Toronto International Film Festival. Elliot's critically acclaimed debut book, a memoir, entitled Page Boy, was published around the world in June twenty twenty three. The book became an instant bestseller, number one atop the New York Times Bestseller List and receiving widespread positive reviews. With Elliot's production company, Pageboy Productions, Elliott develops and produces entertaining, original and socially responsible stories. Elliott, Welcome to On Purpose.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for making the time for being here. I know you're in LA only for a few days, and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of that time.

Thank you for having me here.

Well, today we're talking about your incredible new memoir. For anyone who hasn't already read this book, I highly recommend that you go and grab it. We're going to put the link in the caption so that you can order it right now. Page Boy, please make sure that you go and grab a copy. If you're enjoying this conversation, Elliott. When I was reading through the book, I was truly just first of all, I just felt very grateful that someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of their life and doing it in such a graceful and thoughtful way. And even the structure of the book too. I was just like, Oh, this is like easing me in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from a memoir usually. And you chose this non linear approach consciously and intentionally. Could you explain why you felt that that was the right way to share your story?

Yeah, I mean, for me, the non linearity of it is a reflection on some level of speaking for myself, the trans and queer experience, and how that journey weaves, how we get close to where truth potentially pull back, maybe know ourselves very very deeply before we've been inundated with you know, the society and its expectations that are often toxic and limiting, and you know, so for me, in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments of my life where I did feel close and then would pull back, potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or what have you. So I guess also personally, I enjoy when books are nonlinear. You know, we're in different themes and topics and history and emotion and what have you can all sort of collide. So that's just inherently, I guess, exciting to me. And also, yeah, I think it reflects the sort of queer trans journey on some level.

I love the phrase you just used, the exploration of memory. I don't know, my mind just latched onto it and I thought, wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it. I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing. It so often fails us. It's so often skewed. What was it like for you going down memory lane? And when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover or explore about memory? When you're putting together a memoir, I feel like I feel like there must be something in there for me.

So many of.

You know, the stories or the moments that I chose are ones that have just always been vibrating right under the surface and found the act of writing it in many ways was quite organic. It was sort of I'd sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship that could potentially sort of speak to many things during that time, or a friendship or an incident or what have you, and then sort of mold around that. And for me, so much of what came up was the stuff that was kind of always running around my brain. So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know, in preschool to obviously then all over the place throughout so I think a lot of the the instances and feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible.

For me.

The experience was I don't know if this comes from like acting or having so much of my life being a part of telling stories, where it was as if I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment, and it was as if I was just describing this movie I was watching or something.

Do you find that I'm always fascinated by this, especially with people who are in filmmaking. Do you find that when you're looking at a memory you're seeing yourself move or are you kind of the person doing the moving? Does that make sense?

Yeah?

It does.

I think probably both the combination of the two probably also a conscious removal on some level to be able to, you know, give a texture and description that hopefully will you know, pull the reader into it.

Absolutely well. I always find that all my memories, which it took me a long time to realize this, all my memories that are based on pictures are ones that I'm seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually have from my mind.

If that, yeah, if that.

Makes sense, Like whenever I see a picture of me and my family, then I'm like, oh, actually, I don't have a memory of that. I just have a picture that sparks something for you. Was there a memory that was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh, I didn't I forgot that that happened, or I maybe didn't pay enough attention to that when it happened. Was there anything that came up that way or was it more just things that were already there.

I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged out of nowhere that was a surprise. But I think on some level, and this made you know, the experience of writing it of course intense in moments but ultimately really healing and cathartic. I think there was a lot of memories that I had just so swept under the rug, where you become so conditioned to let certain things go, certain behavior coming at you go that even sitting here right now, I can kind of feel it in my body to register how much certain things really did affect me and my life and my physical wellbeing and my emotional wellbeing.

And what have you.

So it was almost more like there was like a therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with the reality of some things that I think was actually really important.

Yeah, well, thank you for doing it here and here in both places, because I can only imagine how much courage it takes to do that. So thank you for even experiencing even now, as you were saying, you can feel it in your body and I can see that it's I can only imagine how much card doses that take. So you thank you for going there for us. How does it feel to finally be living the way you've always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've always perceived yourself.

It's like.

Getting to feel a way that I never thought was possible when I would just think about my future and how I was going to feel, and I had a very difficult time seeing it. Even this morning, I saw a friend and I don't see him as much because he lives here, and he's just like this like lightness in you. He's just like, oh my gosh, it's such.

An amazing thing to see.

And this is someone who's been in my life since I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at the age of about twenty, like consistently is when we first met initially. So it's, yeah, it's getting to exist in a way that I never thought possible. Doesn't mean I'm not human who doesn't have difficult days or you know, sparks of anxiety naturally, but it's a complete game changer just getting to feel being able to do this, This would have been one impossible. Before impossible, I could have never simply the action of sitting down for the length that it to have space in my mind freed from everything else that was occupying it, to feel the sort of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired and waking up and being able to actually sit down with myself and do something like this. Impossible before impossible.

What would your thoughts about the future have been then that you think made it feel so impossible? As you said, used to think about the future, and it could never have felt as good as it does today despite there being natural human challenges obviously, But yeah, what would that picture of the future would have been.

I think the way the way to explain it is almost like it's almost as if your days. I just do feel like for very significant periods of my life, I struggled to function on a pretty basic level. You know, it was hard for me to just literally sit down. It was hard for me to be productive, it was hard for me to be you know, present at all. And so the future, I think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how much longer i'd last feeling that way in my day to day life.

How does it feel now reconnecting with acting, being who you've always been and being perceived in that way? Like, what is acting like now? Has your relationship with acting changed? Is it better? Is it more?

So much better?

Yeah?

Yeah, I mean, I mean literally everything my life is better now because of how I get to feel and feeling embodied and present and you know, all these things really for the first time, because this is the other thing I have people say to me, or I'd say to myself, like like, you're an actor, just put on the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know whatever. But I wasn't starting from this foundational place of myself. And as much as acting is about inhabiting you know, another personality or you know whatever, manfestations of a character, what have you, you're always bringing yourself to a role right like you're It's so much about connecting to a character, to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma to whatever, to the joy, to what have you, and developing your connection with that and then molding something on them. So I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable, and I feel like I see that and work like inability to sort of I almost think of the word loose, and now there's like this like looseness. There's this ability to just like exist every day on set, be in my body, and that's the starting point. I'm not having to like fight through something to get to the starting point, you know where. I know people approach the work differently, but to me, it's about being as present and open as absolutely possible with all the you know, information you've gathered about how you want to you know, play this role or approach it. So it's allowing for that, and it's feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat I could almost handle, you know, I could handle the you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me, the presence of it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.

Yeah, it's hard to even though something's in art and then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two, Like it's hard to just say, well, that's an art. You turn it on like an off, like a switch, and then there's your life. And I think we all know that, regardless of our disposition or set up, the two intertwine anyway, absolutely, you know. And so what parts of the art do you feel have drastically improved for you know, like that you just feel more connected to or as you said, I love the words open and present to you.

I mean to be honest, So much of it is just about not feeling like unset and in my trailer when I'm alone and wanting to tear my skin off I don't know whatever, the sort of physical ways that I would feel and like I can't remember, I'd call my you know, manager on films and just be like, I'm not okay, like and not necessarily having the words or having them, but not not being able to fully follow through with the thought. I guess so so much of is it actually is like? To be honest, if someone had told me, oh, you've come out as trands and you'll never work as an actor again, I would have been like cool, Like all right, I'd way rather live my life life and be myself and engage with the world is myself and feel embodied and not feel like I don't know how to get through the day not interested. So for me, I'm mostly like okay, cool that the you know, if I keep if I do get cast, the fallout does seem to be this very positive aspect of feeling so much more grounded and present that I think I will it's going to make performances better, and if it doesn't.

Doesn't, I don't really care. That's not what life's about for me.

Had been in movies that have done well, in movies that have not done well, and you're still where you are and living your life and.

I'm good.

Yeah, I love that. I mean that that is I love you said That's what life's about, and I think it's so true. Like for all of us in our own way, is wanting to feel that we can truly be who we are and be seen for who we are and be accepted for who we are is kind of what all of us on our journey are pursuing and seeking. And when you say and it sounds like to me and I'm trying to deeply understand this as well, it's like when you say in the book you talk about how you like I knew when I was four years old, and it's like that knowingness, and then you use the language of like, you know, tearing off your own skin, like that idea to me feels like when there's such a strong knowingness inside, knowing is different to feeling. And it sounds like when I was reading, I was like, there was just knowingness and I was intrigued as to is that the right language? Do you agree with that? And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling, because I think knowing is so much more of this like visceral, deep grounded rooting feeling.

Yeah, I mean I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated to a degree and connect I mean, I think at those which are some of my earliest memories, like these moments that were just always like right under the surface, was so much of how I felt at that age and who I knew myself to be, and how perplexed I was at how the.

World was seeing me. And then.

And when I was about ten, sort of like kind of like pushing my mother to the degree that I was like really actually getting to present how I wanted and like remembering just how good that felt and the solidness and this way I could could exist in the world without the similar feelings that I had as a full blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off that I was feeling at really young ages and not obviously having the words for but in some ways they're like no, wait, I did have the words for them. I was going, this is who I am and want to be, and these are the things that I want to wear and how I want to look and present. And you had people going you know No, I'm sorry you know. So in some ways they're like, wait, no, I did have the words, and also I guess I did to a degree in my twenties, and same thing. People are going, no, you can't do that. You have to do this if you want a future in this industry, for example, or you have to be closeted or what have you. So I think for me, the knowing and the feeling relate. The knowing and feeling good about the knowing is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel that sense of connection, when that's incongruence with what you've been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting treated versus who you know you are. Then when that's heightened and like you're losing the sense of the knowing, that's when all these awful feelings come up and the manifestation and the consequences that are self harm obviously, mental health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness. So I suppose they entwine in that way.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm curious as to friends that you've had in the community who may have been more limited by those statements or that pushback or that judgment how have you been able to talk to others in the community. What have those conversations look like when they're at their healthiest and at their best.

Gosh, well, I'd say those conversations are crucial, right, I'd say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even here and able to exist, and a lot of those conversations, and it goes both ways. In the conversations, is someone speaking to something that might be a thought or a feeling that you thought you were alone with because we obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation. And when you are able to connect with someone that's having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone, that have filled you with shame potentially or put you into a sense of hiding.

Is the.

Not that you want anyone else to be suffering by any means, but when you're able to speak to someone else who's also maybe had the similar feelings when they were for who's maybe had similar manifestations of their pain, I suppose you feel less alone. You are then in a position where you know I can offer support, and support has been offered to me from so many trans people that I'm close to and people I've never met whose books I've read, you know, who've deeply inspired me.

So, yeah, were there any particular books or people that you didn't know that you came across that you think you'd recommend to people to connect with, that you felt were powerful for you while you obviously now that your book's going to play the same role for so many others.

Gosh, I mean so many. And then yeah, some people I know, some I don't. And also a couple of books I've read recently. Actually, Travis Alabanza's book that came out in the UK comes out here I think next month, called None of the Above is just.

Astounding. I don't know if you're familiar with.

Them, No, No, I'm not.

Yeah, brilliant.

Also a British book called A trans Man Walks into a Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas. Stunning book anyway, I just sort of like just read those. Oh, I just read a collection of I don't know if you're familiar with lou Sullivan. They've published like massive amount of his diaries which I just read, and that was atually quite an interesting read because at first you're reading someone's diary like it is very I did this, then I met this person, and then you really get into the flow of it, and it's very you know, it's beautiful. It's emotional and intense. And Janet Mark's books which are stunning. Those I read probably around the age of thirty, Thomas Page mcbee's book Amateur and man Alive.

I'm blinking, no, I mean, you've given us a great list. That's a phenomenal list to even get started with. And it's it's incredible to hear how much you know, I mean, you were just reeling off of book names there, but it's like some mu's deep study of you know, did you ever keep a diary or during this time, or a journal or anything at all all over your time or was this something that was all happening in your mind?

Ultimately mine, for the most part, they were little.

I did go like hunting and h for any kind of old writing from whatever age, and I found some things as a teen, late teens, and like little things from in my twenties and did kind of regret not writing more because a lot of those were really helpful and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back, So no, not so much, but yeah, but.

You'd recommend it as a yes, as a practice.

And I keep meaning to do it, and I thought even.

Maybe I like I wrote a book. Book tour was a lot. I'm like, I'm just taking a moment and then all I think that's fair. Back into the writing flow.

Yeah, I think that's completely fair. Books and book to us, it's almost like you finish writing a book and you think the job's done, and then it's like just started and it's yeah, no, completely completely understand that you You were saying that, you know, and I liked how you were thinking that through you I actually did have the right words at four and then at ten. And I wonder how many young people are going to have the same conversation with their parents in the next few years. I think, you know, we're going to have more parents hearing the words that you used to from their children. What do you think would be a healthy response from parents that you think would be helpful or that you would encourage so that they could be able to better stay connected to their children as they're going on their own journey.

I think you really need to just listen to your children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing. Shame them or embarrass them for what they're expressing, and allow a child the space to explore, you know, I mean, even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself, the things I'd internalized. And I remember this moment which when people say things like what do you say to young people who might be struggling or people are struggling? Is I went from oh am I the oh I don't know, oh, to well, wait, why does this energy need to be this way? Why can't I just be going huh hmm, yeah, maybe I am. Maybe y'all go and find someone and finally sit down and really commit to speaking about this and how I'm feeling in my relationship with my gender in my body because I'm not okay, And why can't I put my shoulders back and speak to this and explore this? And I think in so many ways, it's just about creating that space, that gentleness and listening and educating yourself. You know, there is a lack of information and there isn't a tremendous amount of lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our health care, particularly about health care for youth. So also try and educate yourself from actual sources, from lived experience and also care that's supported by every major medical institution in the United States.

Could you exp and, if this is your field of knowledge, could you expand on some of those lives or some of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with healthcare, because I think that would be really useful if you feel comfortable to you.

I mean, I can, I can do my best, I guess yeah, But I mean the idea that children's bodies are being mutilated flat out liy just literally not true. The idea that puberty blockers are experimental, Nope, They've been used for decades for children who have precocious puberty. And this care is sort of framed as something that's like very easily accessible and immediate.

Not the case at all.

Most trans people are have an incredibly difficult time access and care. It's not how it's being framed in terms of this as if it's getting like pushed. It's like the opposite. And this is like a very thorough patient process that deeply involves the parents of course, and so much of the care for children or you know, young kids, it's just about supporting them, supporting a social transition potentially, you know, name change, program change, how they might want to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very you know, basic aspects of you know, how we exist an how we're alive. And then you know, the moment a child starts to show any sort of characteristic of puberty, that's when the conversation weighed out, conversation with all the information everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop and then you know, if that's the choice or continue potentially to hormones. And then when we're talking about any kind of you know, surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age of typically eighteen, in some cases sixteen.

But so.

I guess that's like the bulk of what I see is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it. It's the opposite. Actually, you know, trans and gender nonconforming people are bully deal with disproportionate violence, so so much of that is just just literally not true.

Right, Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, it's it's useful because, yeah, I think that the challenges with with all of this is, like you said, there's so much information that it's hard for misinformation and information that it's hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively, and we hope that these conversations like this can lead to people doing their own research, finding the right sources so that they can actually be able to make sense of, you know, something that they may not understand, as well as opposed to having an assumption based on broad generalized headlines or.

We're just seeing people that have no I'm always like, oh, I didn't know you were a medical professional. You're not talking about any other sort of medical care in this way when it's supported by every major medical institution in the United States.

Yeah, what do you think trans men can add to the conversation of masculinity or add to the thoughts and belief system orund masculinity. Love to hear your perspectives on that.

I think we can add something.

I believe too.

And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas H. McBee is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what it means to be a man, the man he wants to be.

What have you beautiful book? I think you'd love it.

I know I've had a lived experience of being perceived as not a man, of course, and also the sort of brief experience of like entering that space and like getting sort of treated in a different way or in many ways, I feel so much for CIS men being brought up and the limits put on them emotionally encouraged to be, you know, not sensitive, that vulnerability is weakness on some level or what have you just ingrained misogyny. Obviously we live in a very misogynistic society, queer phobic society, transphobic society, and having certain experiences I've had in my life with men has definitely highlighted certain things that I personally wouldn't want to be And I suppose trans man trans mask people can come to the table with with those experiences and potentially offer something different or an insight that's different, or I hope for CIS men in so many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing emotion and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men and all these things that seem to happen that are.

Toxic.

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I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations with since men that I hadn't had before, Like it created an opening and I'd be quite frankly empathy because I've had not great experiences with men, and it's easy to lose some of the empathy sometimes, you know, I think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or have close relationships with other men, or you know, a sort of a certain age where emoting or self expression in that way is not seen as a positive and if anything, you know, aggression is more you know, celebrated or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themselves and obviously the world. In my life, I've noticed things that are just more you know, subtle, but like men who used to do I hadn't seen them for a while. We used to hug and then now where like there's no hug, and I'm just like, you know, these little things, I'm like, wow, that's fascinating, you know, you know, even myself at the very beginning, like going having these like really brief moments like oh should I talk with my hands? Lest like what elliot did that thought? Actually just enter your brain. No, be exactly who you are. But it highlighted something that, even just in that tiny amount of time, something in me was starting to judge myself about how I was going to be as the man that I am I'm going to grow up to be. And it's you know, it's it's sort of embarrassing to admit, but feeling those those sort of yeah pressures or misguided.

Thoughts.

But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite meaningful conversations with with male friends that we hadn't really had before.

Yeah, and they probably haven't had before.

Yeah.

And I think, and then I will say one thing, Yeah, I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone. And as someone who's literally jokes on me going through purity again, I will say, like, I'm not more angry and the least angry I've ever been. It doesn't like I think, you know, we're not taking into account the degree of socialization and and like toxic limitations that encourage you know, a lot of the behavior and issues we see with toxic masculinity.

Another challenge that you've raised in the book. You said, research has shown that transgender and gender on conforming youth are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder. That obviously creates its own complexity. What was the what is the research point to is the reason behind that and and how people can find support around that, especially with that complication.

Well, gosh, I mean I'm not obviously like a professional.

Gives some exact Yeah, what have you come across my question?

I mean, from my experience, it's you know, a profound discomfort in the body of one leant to have a sense of control. For me, in some ways, I think to being smaller about it looked more boyish when I was that. You know, so this sort of way of like literally controlling the body and also just the sort of you know, sort of psychically mentally, so much of your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to think about other things, to contemplate other things.

You talk about in the book about how like your thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time. And I guess that now that you're able to not have to contemplate those same thoughts almost like what we're talking about the beginning, about the thoughts about the future and the thoughts about it being impossible. What now that you have that headspace back, or hopefully more of it back, what would that now be? What are you directing that towards? What opportunity is that opening or where you able to spend that goat Power wrote a book.

Yeah, I wrote a Yeah, I wrote a book. I mean I make you know, for fun, like music with a friend. It's actually hard to describe when it's literally now every aspect and every moment of my life, you know, Like when people go, oh, what was your last incident of like gender euphoria, I'm like, oh, this morning when I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able to sit and have my coffee doing things in the past that like I did enjoy but a part of me wasn't there. So it could just be going to meet some friends in the park, and I'm really able to just be in the park with them. I'm not thinking about, oh, well are they gonna did I eat?

Well?

You only ate this much time ago, and oh my god, I'm so uncomfortable and chucking down my shirt and looking and just kind of wanting to get out, always like always wanting to just this sense of always wanting to flee. And now sometimes, of course there's moments where I'm like, I'd really love to just be home reading a book right now. I mean like, I'm not like, it's not like I'm like Johnny's social all of a sudden, but going from having like a very difficult time being social and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed in life versus struggling to know how to live it.

Well, that definitely registers hearing, that definitely hits. Thank you for explaining that. When you went on the book tour and you obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book. What's been what have been the responses that have really warmed your heart or that have really connected to you in a way that are going to stay with you for a long long time, either on tour or I'm sure you've had so many people write to you because of the book and write to your team and everyone else. What are some of the what are some of those that you could tell us now, especially now that the book's been out for a while, guessing it's only getting more and more.

Yeah, I think the most moving.

And beautiful responses are people kind of expressing it all ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you know now feel less alone, helped them talk to their parents in a new way, helped them feel carry less shame. Write a letter from someone who was they might have I might have been, you know, fifty, and they'd read the book and then like, you know, finally I had decided, yes I'm going on testosterone and just saying like how much that decision had changed their life. And I fully was like crying when I read this. I was just so well thankful that they'd want to, you know, share that with me. And also to know that anything you could have done or expressed would help someone feel less alone, because I know how alone you can feel, I know how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body, and what it means when you do get those moments of clarity and feel connection. As I've said, I've had that with books I've read or you know, friendships and what community communities offered me.

So those are beautiful moments.

And then even you know, a friend of mine whose trans mask and they their mom read the book and like a couple days and they said, I'm now having conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before. It's I mean, at the end of the day, like that's the point. I mean, that's really the point. It's like, why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing? Like sometimes I feel like, leading up to it coming out, I'm like, oh my god, why'd you write about that?

You know?

And then when you have those moments that you know it could be helping someone, it's just like to me, that's the point.

Yeah, did you encounter anyone that initially may have been, you know, in their own way, initially critical or judgmental, and then was able to kind of even just sit with you and hear from you, or and was able to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey. Did you come across any of that or hear about any of those types of stories from anyone?

I mean, I suppose people, I don't know if you know, the individual went on like some huge art change of things that it enabled them to think about and understand and the experience a bit more. And actually in so many ways that I think so special is how much they also related to it despite having a very different experience, you know, not being trans, and how did they relate to what was they related it being you know, ciste and gay and so obviously there's going to be like overlap there, but had maybe they did have their certain feelings about trans people or thoughts and the book really did help, you know, their mind changed too, it agree.

I'm so glad that. I mean, there's so many books that you mentioned today that I want to read and I know that you know, our community is hopefully going to read Pageboy as well after this. But it's fascinating to me just how how we all became trained in different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to experiences that you would hope we would have become more curious to learn about and more open to learn about. And it's it's fascinating to me as a SIS society howp we've become more and more close minded about so many issues as opposed to being broad minded when it obviously makes sense. To be open minded about things makes us a healthier, happier, more growth focused human. And for me, I've always talked about how I think the best thing that happened to me is I met people who were very different to society when I was young. And when I said different, I mean for me, it was meeting spiritual monks like that was my personal journey and so meeting a monk at eighteen years old was so random to my life's journey that it was great because it presented a whole new way of thinking, an ideology that I would never have ever thought could even be possible, and it became such a big part of my life. And I just I'm hoping that you know, stories like yours and stories like this will continue to help people open up their minds to recognize how much there is in common that we have and how much much there is in common experience that we can learn from and be guided by. Even if it's not the same experience. Would that be an accurate mission statement a part of the mission statement?

Absolutely ideally, Yeah. And I mean I, you know, like memoir in particulars I read a lot of and love and so much of it are you know, stories that are very different than mine, and people with different experiences and identity and what have you that have deeply touched me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed me to grow and expand. And we're all learning all the time, you know, and it's it's beautiful to have the space or you know, to help create the space on any level that allows people to grow and expand in that way.

How's your perspective on love changed? And the area of your.

Life definitely very different now than I was in before. I was very much which I think is maybe relatively evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogenist and just like really did find it so hard to exist and function that I I do think I needed someone like I And the moment there was like attraction or a feeling. It's just sort of like, oh, you know, like and like hold on tight, you know, and staying in situations that I'm sure a lot of people. Again, this is something that so many people would relate to in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably weren't great for either party involved, and that came from really just not knowing how to exist by myself and the feeling of love right ooh, that's like like we escape. It's pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know, it's and that feeling would give me a spark of life. It would give me a moment of I can breathe. Ultimately, though that's not the reason why I think we should be with someone, and it's tad selfish.

On my part.

And now I am so blown away by the fact that I can be alone like that is such an exhilarating sensation, an element of the feeling away I never thought was possible that Right now, I'm very much enjoying being you know, connecting with people, having some fun, but just sort of being on my own right now, and that is very new for me, very new for me. And I want love in a relationship to be you know, I mean, our stuff's always going to follow us into intimate relationships, I know it, you know, come from a solid and embodied foundation where I know, I'm going into that because we're going to love each other and explore life together and grow together, and not because I'm clinging to something for dear life.

That sounds like it must be such a such a.

So I'm single.

I love it. That's brilliant. I was about to say, like, just how meaningful that must feel? Like, you know it must be. It sounds like such a profound place that you know, it's such a deep space to feel that scentedness and stillness in being with oneself and that confidence of just just being in oneself. But you're single, So that's we're going to throw that out there. How do you think the journey And of course you know the communities, the transc community so well, so you would know how how do you think the journey is different when you are in the public eye versus when you're not, Like there are the obvious differences, of course we've talked about like the pressure from successive movies and things like that, But are there any more nuanced to subtle things that some of us could miss in plain sight because you're not living that journey or you're not seeing.

It, don't know.

I mean, it's so funny because it's just like my strange experience in this life. I mean maybe in that you're just going through this transition in front of a lot of people and having people speculate or make comments or assumptions about your life and your experience that can often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning. And at the same time, everything everything's like you know, relative, everyone's sort of having that in their own individual orbit. And my position of comes with such an enormous amount of privilege, like my life does not reflect the lives of most trans people who deal with you know, disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence, et cetera, particularly black trans people. So I'd be lying if I said there weren't certain elements of this sort of unusual experience that don't have its sort of challenges or difficult moments. And at the same time, what I always go back to is the degree in which my privilege and resources help and also protect me. You know, if I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security, I could get you know, pay for surgery to get it quickly. You know, all of these aspects that name change, you know, think about that all those documents, you're you know, you're passwords, like all of these things that for those that you know don't have the certain privileges and resources I have, is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.

Yeah, and I'm glad you raised that point, because yeah, I think, yeah, we have we have to also look at it from that perspective of just again going back to the reality of what these choices and decisions like actually look like in the real world, because similar and I appreciate that view from you constantly of like looking at it from well, this is what it actually looks like, this is what's actually going on, this is this is what we may not see if we're only looking at the you know, the And again that doesn't take away from your journey as well, like that that shouldn't take away from the challenges and stresses and the realities of what you're experiencing. But I wanted to pivot to certain things because I feel like, I feel like the book is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible adventures of what you're going to do and achieve. And I heard that you're a big history buff and I'm guessing you're doing a lot of reading there. I wonder whether there's any has there been, and you talked about even just I love what you've been saying that just and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it really the way you express this is really going to stay with me. This idea that the biggest win is just you being able to do the simplest things in a present way like that will stay with me so much because it's something that we all take for granted so much, like you know you just I know I do like so it's a very easy thing to miss out on and some of us are not even present, but even if we are present, we take that for granted. And so the idea that you feel so much present in just having coffee this morning, or like reading a book, or being with friends in the park or what you know, all those examples you were giving, Yeah, I wanted to dive into what, seeing as you're such a big reader, when did you become such a history buff and what has been the latest historic discovery that has kind of brought you joy?

I haven't been reading too much stuff about history.

Or anything else, any anything you're reading.

Oh, lately I've been reading Octavia Butler because I embarrassed to say I hadn't read Octavia Butler before, so I just read Wild Seed and Kindred. I guess obviously those books have a fantastical sort of history, but obviously a very intense history element to it, you know, particular, you know, Wild Seed and Kindred a very brutal history.

I'm reading more novels lately.

Yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler's books are novels, but also Our Wives under the Sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's new novel I'm trying to called The Last Americans. It might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel was amazing, so less like history.

Specific, but it's all history.

But obviously there's historical elements and a lot of the those different things, not really the Brandon Taylor one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the other ones. Yeah, no, no, And and I think that that is the point where, like I think biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all have historical elements to them. I mean, that's that's where they come from. And one part that felt very journal like in your book was at the end of the book, you described being at the show with Mark and having a moment of self love that you wanted to hold onto and you say, taking a deep breath, exhaling, exhaling down to my toes. I wanted to hold onto the feeling, to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self love. And I thought that felt very diary like, like, it felt very like journal thought is you know, very unique words. And I wanted to know, like, why did you choose to end the book at sixteen years old? Like again we talked about the nonlinear, but specifically to end on that after going through this journey back and forth? What was it? What was so? Yeah, why end on sixteen years old?

Yeah?

Well, I felt like sort of began the book at this time that was also involved Mark, and was this period of feeling more self love, feeling closer to myself, falling in love with my first girlfriend, Paula, and then you know that leading up to a moment that was a big pivot in my life, and then to sort of you know, bookend that with this moment sixteen Peaches Concert, what would have been the queerest environment I'd probably been in at that point in my life and the just palpable joy, the electricity of it, and I'll never forget that night. I'll never forget walking home with Mark and what that felt like, what that community felt like. And to end on that note there at sixteen, having that atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired me since I was a teenager, it felt like a special moment to end on.

Yeah, I definitely felt it, and it's wonderful to have that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment. And you know, Elliott, I just want to say how honestly I was so excited to meet you today and do this interview. And I love it when this happens, when you get an experience that you didn't know you were going to get. And that's how I feel with you today, where you can always intellectualize what you think you're going to learn or what you think you're going to gain, and I had all those ideas, which I definitely have learned so much. It's not that I haven't learned, but it's I've kind of been moved more internally. And I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's something that I can express from a deep place within myself. And I feel like I've been moved by you sharing your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but also even getting the opportunity to sit with you today. And I only have a couple more questions for you. We asked at the end of every interview to a final five, which is a fast five in the sense that they have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. But I always ruin it because I'm so intrigued by all my guests. But I'll try so, Elliott Paige, these are your final five. The first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? And it can be about any topic you choose it to be about.

You know what.

I don't know why this is popping into my brain, but there's a memory popping in my brain, so I'm like, why not go with this. And the time in that period when everyone sort of go to was your dream's coming true, Your dream's coming true, Your dream's coming true, Kate Winslet said to me. And I was still am obsessed with Kate Winslet love one of just my favorite actors of all time, and I was too shy to go up to her at this party or something. It would have been the first time that she just came up to me and was like, obviously, it took me a long time to listen to the advice properly, but she was just like, don't let them change you, like, don't like you hold on to yourself. Essentially, don't let this and I'll never forget it. Who was I think the only person in who that whole period basically said anything like that, you know from that, and I've always remembered it and always meantal art to me.

I think that's a great answer, And yeah, what a beautiful stament. Don't let them change you, hold on to yourself. That's that's beautiful. Okay, great. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Sure this is.

Easier, Yeah, yeah, don't be Yeah, don't tell people you're queer and disguise yourself too to trick them.

Yeah, even those words disguise yourself to trick them and say it's it's hard to live in a disguise and as.

A trick, which is just so silly too, as if like, so you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress, like what are we like just the binary asthma. It's just ridiculous.

Yeah, what are we trying to so boring? Question number three, what is something you used to value that you no longer value?

I think like a certain idea what we envision success to be. You know, that's not really that important to me anymore.

Yeah, and that was clear from what you said earlier, the idea that you were willing to let it all go, if you were allowed to be who you are and be totally Yeah, it's like not what success means to me. Question number four, what is something that you're currently trying to unlearn?

I guess still, you know, whatever shame still lingers that was projected onto me by those around me, society obviously in a so much better place, Like so much of it's probably unconscious, but as if it's not, you know, still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings that make you feel small.

And fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show, and I'm really intrigued to hear your answer. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Kind you can take your.

Time that everybody had to follow. Don't be a bully.

That's a good one.

Bullying is outlined.

Yeah, any terrible bully. Yeah, I think that's a good law. Yeah, there's a rule. It needs to become a law. Yeah, I love it, Elliott. Page Everyone in the book is called a page boy a memoir. If you haven't read it already, highly recommend it. Read it for your own education, share it with friends, make your next book club pick to be able to discuss it, dissect it, support the communities around you, support your friends who are on their journey. And I'd love you to share with me and Elliott the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you. There were so many things that I felt and experienced through this conversation that are definitely going to stay with me. And i'd love to see. I know that you're phenomenal at doing this, You're phenomena that doing edits and on TikTok and Instagram and x and I'd love to see what are those moments in this interview and conversation that are going to stay with you and that you're going to pass on to others. Elliott, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your presence today. Like I said, I will take this experience around and share it with many people, because it's an experience that have really felt deeply through your words and through your presence today, and so often when I'm sitting in this chair, the number one feeling I'm having is I wish the world could feel what I'm feeling right now, because so often I'm feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the trauma that people like yourself are experiencing, and could experience your humanity in the way that I'm experiencing, then maybe we wouldn't treat each other that way. Then maybe we wouldn't speak to each other that way, that maybe we wouldn't impact each other in that negative way. I'm really thankful I got to spend this time with you, and I really hope that more and more people get to experience you through your book and through your work so that they two can understand more about themselves and more about you. So thank you, so.

Much, thank you so much. Thank you really appreciate it.

Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.

My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C section scarf with all the stretch marks. Now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three, when I did it, I was like, you know what, her thighs are cute