There's a lot of talk about mindfulness these days, which is fantastic. I mean, we all want to be more present and self aware, more patient, less judgmental. We discuss all these themes on the podcast, but it's hard to actually be mindful in your day to day life. That's where Calm comes in. I've been working with Calm for a few years now with the goal of making mindfulness fun and easy. Calm has all sorts of content to help you build positive habits, shift yourself, talk, reframe your negative thoughts, and generally feel better in your daily life. So many incredible options from the most knowledgeable experts in the world, along with renowned meditation teachers. You can also check out my seven minute daily series to help you live more mindfully each and every day. Right now, listeners of On Purpose get forty percent off a subscription to Calmpremium at Calm dot com Forward slash j that's Calm dot com Forward slash Jay for forty percent off. Calm your Mind, Change your Life.

There's a lot of talk about mindfulness these days, which is fantastic. I mean, we all want to be more present and self aware, more patient, less judgmental. We discuss all these themes on the podcast, but it's hard to actually be mindful in your day to day life. That's where Calm comes in. I've been working with Calm for a few years now with the goal of making mindfulness fun and easy. Calm has all sorts of content to help you build positive habits, shift yourself, talk, reframe your negative thoughts, and generally feel better in your daily life. So many incredible options from the most knowledgeable experts in the world, along with renowned meditation teachers. You can also check out my seven minute daily series to help you live more mindfully each and every day. Right now, listeners of On Purpose get forty percent off a subscription to Calmpremium at Calm dot com Forward slash j that's Calm dot com Forward slash Jay for forty percent off. Calm your Mind, Change your Life.

How do I negotiate a better salary? Bosses there, listen and I said, ask him this question. Chris Vons, retired FBI Special Agent for what Lead International kidnapping negotiators, but author have never split the difference. We don't really see the great negotiators as great negotiators. One of the greatest negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey.

How do I negotiate a better salary? Bosses there, listen and I said, ask him this question. Chris Vons, retired FBI Special Agent for what Lead International kidnapping negotiators, but author have never split the difference. We don't really see the great negotiators as great negotiators. One of the greatest negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey.

What are women doing wrong or what can they do better? In negotiation?

What are women doing wrong or what can they do better? In negotiation?

You're out of order on the sequence?

You're out of order on the sequence?

Can you negotiate with a narcissist?

Can you negotiate with a narcissist?

Of course, you can negotiate with the narcissists. One of the things we advise people to do.

Of course, you can negotiate with the narcissists. One of the things we advise people to do.

Is weird throw to announce that we've reached three million subscribers. We're incredibly grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on any of our new releases. We're dedicated to bringing you the content you love. Our team carefully analyzes what resonates most with you to bring on board the best experts and storytellers to help you improve your life. Some of your favorite topics are sleep, science, weight loss, physical fitness, navigating breakups, habit building, and understanding toxic relationships. Upcoming episodes include one of the biggest names in health and science world, renowned relationship therapist, and your favorite manifestation expert is back to drop new findings. Hit Subscribe to not miss any of these episodes. If you think of someone who would love this episode, send it to them to make their day.

Is weird throw to announce that we've reached three million subscribers. We're incredibly grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on any of our new releases. We're dedicated to bringing you the content you love. Our team carefully analyzes what resonates most with you to bring on board the best experts and storytellers to help you improve your life. Some of your favorite topics are sleep, science, weight loss, physical fitness, navigating breakups, habit building, and understanding toxic relationships. Upcoming episodes include one of the biggest names in health and science world, renowned relationship therapist, and your favorite manifestation expert is back to drop new findings. Hit Subscribe to not miss any of these episodes. If you think of someone who would love this episode, send it to them to make their day.

The number one health and wellness podcast.

The number one health and wellness podcast.

Jay Sety, Jay Sheety Yet. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm so glad that you're back because I love sitting down with incredible minds, thinkers, thought leaders who are helping us develop better skills, better habits, and better mindsets. Today's guest is a former lead FBI negotiator and dynamic speaker who debunks the biggest myths of negotiation. Chris Voss engages all groups with captivating stories, insights, and useful tips for business and everyday life. Chris is lectured on negotiation at business schools and across the country and has been seen on ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox News. He's also been featured in Forbes, Time, Fast Company, and Inc. And Chris's book, Never Split the Difference has sold over two million copies. And It's all about negotiating as if your life depends on it. If you're in a space in your life where you need to get better at dealing with conflict, negotiate better, and make sure that you win in one of those situations. This episode is for you. Please welcome to On Purpose, Chris Vos. Chris, it's great to have you in studio.

Jay Sety, Jay Sheety Yet. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm so glad that you're back because I love sitting down with incredible minds, thinkers, thought leaders who are helping us develop better skills, better habits, and better mindsets. Today's guest is a former lead FBI negotiator and dynamic speaker who debunks the biggest myths of negotiation. Chris Voss engages all groups with captivating stories, insights, and useful tips for business and everyday life. Chris is lectured on negotiation at business schools and across the country and has been seen on ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox News. He's also been featured in Forbes, Time, Fast Company, and Inc. And Chris's book, Never Split the Difference has sold over two million copies. And It's all about negotiating as if your life depends on it. If you're in a space in your life where you need to get better at dealing with conflict, negotiate better, and make sure that you win in one of those situations. This episode is for you. Please welcome to On Purpose, Chris Vos. Chris, it's great to have you in studio.

Jay, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jay, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Oh well, thank you so much for being here. As I said, I find your work fascinating because I don't think it's every day that you get to learn about negotiation from someone who's done it in the most high stakes, highly critical, difficult environments. And I wanted to ask you why did you come a lead negotiate to that.

Oh well, thank you so much for being here. As I said, I find your work fascinating because I don't think it's every day that you get to learn about negotiation from someone who's done it in the most high stakes, highly critical, difficult environments. And I wanted to ask you why did you come a lead negotiate to that.

It's almost a cliche, but it's a little bit of following your bliss and then every now and then, I think the universe jumps in and makes you change the directions. And originally I was on a swap team. I was scheduled to be on a SWAT team with the Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. I was on a SWAT team when I joined the FBI and I reinjured my knee. And I love crisis response because I think a comfortable in action is one of the banes of human existence. We got to make decisions. And so when I was on a SWAT team crisis response, you got to make a decision. You know, they can't. Let's let's sit back and wait and see what happens. That's not really the way you approach a crisis. So when I was on the SWAT team, you know, we had hostage negotiators. They went along with the SWAT guys. I didn't really know what they did. You know, we'd be out there in the cold, in the rain. They'd be inside someplace warm. But I wanted to stay in crisis response, so I thought, yeah, you know I could do that. How hard could it be? It's my son and I Brandon. I've always joked that the Voice family model is how hard can it be be, which is similar to a redneck's famous last words, which are, hey watch this. It's always going to be more complicated than you expect. But I got into it and I loved it. It was more satisfying than SWAT ever was. And SWATT was great, but hostage negotiation, when I stumbled over at the Universe, sort of pushed me in that direction. It was a push that I needed, and I've enjoyed it ever since.

It's almost a cliche, but it's a little bit of following your bliss and then every now and then, I think the universe jumps in and makes you change the directions. And originally I was on a swap team. I was scheduled to be on a SWAT team with the Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. I was on a SWAT team when I joined the FBI and I reinjured my knee. And I love crisis response because I think a comfortable in action is one of the banes of human existence. We got to make decisions. And so when I was on a SWAT team crisis response, you got to make a decision. You know, they can't. Let's let's sit back and wait and see what happens. That's not really the way you approach a crisis. So when I was on the SWAT team, you know, we had hostage negotiators. They went along with the SWAT guys. I didn't really know what they did. You know, we'd be out there in the cold, in the rain. They'd be inside someplace warm. But I wanted to stay in crisis response, so I thought, yeah, you know I could do that. How hard could it be? It's my son and I Brandon. I've always joked that the Voice family model is how hard can it be be, which is similar to a redneck's famous last words, which are, hey watch this. It's always going to be more complicated than you expect. But I got into it and I loved it. It was more satisfying than SWAT ever was. And SWATT was great, but hostage negotiation, when I stumbled over at the Universe, sort of pushed me in that direction. It was a push that I needed, and I've enjoyed it ever since.

And you never felt scared. There wasn't the fear. There wasn't the difficult in your mind before you got involved, that this could be something that would be extremely difficult, potentially painful, challenging.

And you never felt scared. There wasn't the fear. There wasn't the difficult in your mind before you got involved, that this could be something that would be extremely difficult, potentially painful, challenging.

No, because first of all, I was rejected for the negotiation team. I was in fact eminently unqualified. But I went to the head of the program in New York, a woman running the team, and she said, you know, yeah, you're not qualified, go away. And I said, all right, So there's got to be something I could do. What is it? She said, go volunteer on a suicide hotline. I'm like, all right. So I went to the suicide hotline to learn, not to help people, helping people with secondary it's good secondary, but I went there to learn, and I was fascinated by it. And so then I'm teachable. I'm coachable. I learned their process and I saw how quickly empathy emotional intelligence accelerated outcomes, positive outcomes, And so I wasn't scared as a hostage negotiator because I'd already learned in a process that I believed in. I knew it was a highly successful process. So when I started hostage negotiation, I just leaned into a process that I had was familiar with and had been proven to me.

No, because first of all, I was rejected for the negotiation team. I was in fact eminently unqualified. But I went to the head of the program in New York, a woman running the team, and she said, you know, yeah, you're not qualified, go away. And I said, all right, So there's got to be something I could do. What is it? She said, go volunteer on a suicide hotline. I'm like, all right. So I went to the suicide hotline to learn, not to help people, helping people with secondary it's good secondary, but I went there to learn, and I was fascinated by it. And so then I'm teachable. I'm coachable. I learned their process and I saw how quickly empathy emotional intelligence accelerated outcomes, positive outcomes, And so I wasn't scared as a hostage negotiator because I'd already learned in a process that I believed in. I knew it was a highly successful process. So when I started hostage negotiation, I just leaned into a process that I had was familiar with and had been proven to me.

Worked walk us through what a conversation on a suicide hotline sounds like, because I imagine that being highly stressful. You're dealing with someone who's in a high state of panic. There's so much uncertainty. Walk us through what that kind of a conversation looks like and what you learned.

Worked walk us through what a conversation on a suicide hotline sounds like, because I imagine that being highly stressful. You're dealing with someone who's in a high state of panic. There's so much uncertainty. Walk us through what that kind of a conversation looks like and what you learned.

Well, THEE used to it very closely supervised, so I think I was a little unsteady at the beginning. So for whatever reason I naturally lapsed into what I refer to as the late night FM DJ voice, and the first call I just said, hello, this is helpline Now. That has a tremendously calming effect on people. And afterwards the supervisors said your voice was great, that was great. You started out great, and I remember thinking like, wow, I don't even know what I did. I'm have to go back to it. So you want to start with a calming, soothing voice, and then no matter what they say, you want to put a label in a hostage negotiation. We called it emotion labeling. In that Black Swan method, we just call it labeling. Put a label on emotion that you're hearing. Doesn't matter what it is just label it now. Since they're in crisis, the emotion is probably going to be negative. And in point of fact, we're all driven by negative thoughts. We're seventy five percent negative our survival mechanism that we wake up with every day to survive. The caveman had to be negative. The optimistic caveman said, you know, yeah, you know, Chris walked in here yesterday and he never came out. But I'm optimistic. I'm gonna go in today too. And that guy got eaten too. But the negative guys shot away, and we've inherited that wiring. And I remember one night in particular, this guy's really frantic, sounded sounded super fantic, says you know, I just I need to put it. I need your help putting a lid on this day. I got to put a lid on this day. So I just said, you sounds frantic, and immediately came down. There's a neuroscience reason for that, now that you know. We never knew then. It's just simply calling out a negative emotion is the most effective way to deactivate it. So he came down, and then to the course of the conversation, I just used three labels he was. He was a guy who was paranoid. He's getting a lot of support from his family, he said, you know, I'm going on a car tripped tomorrow. I just you know, I just you know, and I know my family's helping me, and I just you know, I just I need my family's help. But I'm worried about it tonight and I can't get to sleep. So I hit him with a label that somebody had once hit me with. In a conversation, I was telling my friend how close I felt to my family, but I didn't say it explicitly. It was strongly implied. And my friend said to me, it sounds like your family's really close. And I remember how good it felt in that moment, and I've never forgotten that. So is this guy's describing to me how much support he was getting from his family, how they were always there for him. It sounded like they're close. So I said that exact line. I said, it sounds like your family's really close. And I felt his strength come back in his voice immediately. So then he went on to tell me about how he'd been battling paranoia and how hard he was working, and he struck me as determined. So I simply said sound determined, and he said, yeah, just like that, Yeah, I am determined. I'm gonna go on a car trip tomorrow and be fine. Thanks for everything you did, hung up the phone. That's not every conversation, but that's the way they're supposed to go. You know, you call out what you're hearing, and it really helps people sort of self level because you're great sounding board and you're picking out the negatives and deactivating them and the positives and reinforcing them just by observing them.

Well, THEE used to it very closely supervised, so I think I was a little unsteady at the beginning. So for whatever reason I naturally lapsed into what I refer to as the late night FM DJ voice, and the first call I just said, hello, this is helpline Now. That has a tremendously calming effect on people. And afterwards the supervisors said your voice was great, that was great. You started out great, and I remember thinking like, wow, I don't even know what I did. I'm have to go back to it. So you want to start with a calming, soothing voice, and then no matter what they say, you want to put a label in a hostage negotiation. We called it emotion labeling. In that Black Swan method, we just call it labeling. Put a label on emotion that you're hearing. Doesn't matter what it is just label it now. Since they're in crisis, the emotion is probably going to be negative. And in point of fact, we're all driven by negative thoughts. We're seventy five percent negative our survival mechanism that we wake up with every day to survive. The caveman had to be negative. The optimistic caveman said, you know, yeah, you know, Chris walked in here yesterday and he never came out. But I'm optimistic. I'm gonna go in today too. And that guy got eaten too. But the negative guys shot away, and we've inherited that wiring. And I remember one night in particular, this guy's really frantic, sounded sounded super fantic, says you know, I just I need to put it. I need your help putting a lid on this day. I got to put a lid on this day. So I just said, you sounds frantic, and immediately came down. There's a neuroscience reason for that, now that you know. We never knew then. It's just simply calling out a negative emotion is the most effective way to deactivate it. So he came down, and then to the course of the conversation, I just used three labels he was. He was a guy who was paranoid. He's getting a lot of support from his family, he said, you know, I'm going on a car tripped tomorrow. I just you know, I just you know, and I know my family's helping me, and I just you know, I just I need my family's help. But I'm worried about it tonight and I can't get to sleep. So I hit him with a label that somebody had once hit me with. In a conversation, I was telling my friend how close I felt to my family, but I didn't say it explicitly. It was strongly implied. And my friend said to me, it sounds like your family's really close. And I remember how good it felt in that moment, and I've never forgotten that. So is this guy's describing to me how much support he was getting from his family, how they were always there for him. It sounded like they're close. So I said that exact line. I said, it sounds like your family's really close. And I felt his strength come back in his voice immediately. So then he went on to tell me about how he'd been battling paranoia and how hard he was working, and he struck me as determined. So I simply said sound determined, and he said, yeah, just like that, Yeah, I am determined. I'm gonna go on a car trip tomorrow and be fine. Thanks for everything you did, hung up the phone. That's not every conversation, but that's the way they're supposed to go. You know, you call out what you're hearing, and it really helps people sort of self level because you're great sounding board and you're picking out the negatives and deactivating them and the positives and reinforcing them just by observing them.

The reason why I find that so fascinating is because I was thinking, so many of us deal with our friends.

The reason why I find that so fascinating is because I was thinking, so many of us deal with our friends.

YEP.

YEP.

In that sort of an environment, you may get a phone call from a friend who's like panicking, they've just ended a relationship, they've gone through a rejection of failure, whatever it may be, and our got instinct is to try and solve that problem and to fix it for them and fill in the blanks, when actually what you're saying is the ability to just notice what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, and being able to call it out and label it, as you rightly said, that's actually giving them the tools to make sense of it for themselves.

In that sort of an environment, you may get a phone call from a friend who's like panicking, they've just ended a relationship, they've gone through a rejection of failure, whatever it may be, and our got instinct is to try and solve that problem and to fix it for them and fill in the blanks, when actually what you're saying is the ability to just notice what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, and being able to call it out and label it, as you rightly said, that's actually giving them the tools to make sense of it for themselves.

Yeah, exactly, and it's restoring their tools. And then it's also they feel very self empowered. The problem with giving advice is the person receiving it doesn't feel empowered. They might not be able to sort through it emotionally, and so then when you're not there, they're lost again. They didn't feel like they got to the answer on their own. A great sounding board simply helps his guide helps them get to the answer on their own, and then inside they say, what wait, I got here on my own once, I could do it again. Whereas if you give me the advice when you're not around, I might be lost.

Yeah, exactly, and it's restoring their tools. And then it's also they feel very self empowered. The problem with giving advice is the person receiving it doesn't feel empowered. They might not be able to sort through it emotionally, and so then when you're not there, they're lost again. They didn't feel like they got to the answer on their own. A great sounding board simply helps his guide helps them get to the answer on their own, and then inside they say, what wait, I got here on my own once, I could do it again. Whereas if you give me the advice when you're not around, I might be lost.

Yeah. There's a famous quote that says something like good leaders make you believe in them. Great leaders make you believe in you. And this idea that if someone's really leading the conversation, well, the person's walking away with self belief, yes, and the confidence and what they have. Before we dive into the actual tools and breaking down of a negotiation, I find that most people try to avoid a negotiation because they see it as conflict. They see it as an argument, they see it as a potential debate, and most of us are trying to avoid conflict at all costs. And so even if it's like your plumber and they quote you a price, we're scared of negotiating because we're scared of that turning into an altercation. Or if someone's trying to sell us something at a store, when we're scared to have that conversation about a discount or whatever it may be. Walk us through that fear. What have you noticed about Where does that fear come from that we all carry of. I don't want to get into a conflict. I don't want to negotiate. I'll just go with what you want because it's easier to be a people pleaser.

Yeah. There's a famous quote that says something like good leaders make you believe in them. Great leaders make you believe in you. And this idea that if someone's really leading the conversation, well, the person's walking away with self belief, yes, and the confidence and what they have. Before we dive into the actual tools and breaking down of a negotiation, I find that most people try to avoid a negotiation because they see it as conflict. They see it as an argument, they see it as a potential debate, and most of us are trying to avoid conflict at all costs. And so even if it's like your plumber and they quote you a price, we're scared of negotiating because we're scared of that turning into an altercation. Or if someone's trying to sell us something at a store, when we're scared to have that conversation about a discount or whatever it may be. Walk us through that fear. What have you noticed about Where does that fear come from that we all carry of. I don't want to get into a conflict. I don't want to negotiate. I'll just go with what you want because it's easier to be a people pleaser.

Myself and my team we believe even we've got enough anecdotal data that the world splits up evenly into three types fight flight, make friends, A sort of analyst, a comminator. And we've seen this show up globally. It's disconnected from gender, ethnicity, religion. So two out of three don't like conflict, the analyst and the accommodator. Analysts thinks of life very much like chests. Lots of moves, lots of percentages, and analysts want to think everything through, all the possibilities and then put percentages on it, and conflict is one option, and it tends to be highly destructive, highly inefficient, and so the analyst doesn't particularly like conflict because it seems to be very inefficient and ineffective, and they are far more better ways to communicate, So they're avoiding conflict for that reason. The relationship on in person the accommodator, conflict is just ugly. It makes them feel bad. It sort of pollutes their existence, and they see that as a much higher cost. It places a very high value on relationships optimism, being very hope based. So they're going to avoid it for those reasons that. You know, they want to feel connected to you, and conflict doesn't make them feel connected to you. Now, the third type, the assertive. You know, they love it. They say it's combat. They love it, They get into it, they recover from the conflict very quickly. I happen to be a natural born assertive. Donald Trump is a poster child for assertives. It's just one of the three times and love combat. But then don't really pay attention to the long term costs of being openly aggressive because the you know, the adrenaline hit in the moment a victory tends to overshadow how the losses pile up, So we want you know, two or three, we want to avoid that. So the real challenge, though, is we got to collaborate. But negotiation has this feeling to it that it's the loudest, most agreat a voice in the room, the guy who kicks the chair across the room to get his points, screams, slams their hands on a table, storms out. You know, this thing that actually happens a tendency to pollute the collaborative environment. And we don't really see the great negotiators as great negotiators. You know, in my view, one of the greatest negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey. Nobody sees her as conflict oriented, that her list of great negotiations, her life's achievements based on collaboration and being very positive. And then if you were to try to consider the context of our life having gained tremendous success in an environment filled with maybe some of the most volatile people on earth, Hollywood celebrities. What Hollywood celebrities mad at Oprah? You know what rock fight has she gotten into? You know, who's thrown shade like it is not there simultaneously her financial success and the different phenomenal interviews she's gotten. They were no no holds Bard's interview. You know, you know one of my favorites is Lance armstrong interview. I happen to be acquainted with Lance. I like them a lot. But there was no punches pulled there. That was a negotiation going into that. So spectacular negotiation is really invisible, but we don't know that. Because it's invisible. We don't think of Oprah as a great negotiator. Warren Buffett, we don't think of him as a great negotiator, and they have to be. So that's we're just not aware of what great negotiation really looks like because it looks like great collaboration, great navigation. As soon as you could change the definition from win lose to great collaboration, now people are interested. You know, how to fine negotiation is great collaboration, long relationship where we're both ecstatic about our success. And if you can reframe it like that, then people are a lot more interested in negotiation. I think that's one of the reasons the book has succeeded, because it's not a series of stories where we beat anybody. Sometimes we had to force collaboration with a highly competitive negotiator. That was what kidnapping was about. I'm going to force the kidnapper to collaborate. I'm going to force that guy from al Qaeda into a collaborative conversation. But I'm not going to hit back.

Myself and my team we believe even we've got enough anecdotal data that the world splits up evenly into three types fight flight, make friends, A sort of analyst, a comminator. And we've seen this show up globally. It's disconnected from gender, ethnicity, religion. So two out of three don't like conflict, the analyst and the accommodator. Analysts thinks of life very much like chests. Lots of moves, lots of percentages, and analysts want to think everything through, all the possibilities and then put percentages on it, and conflict is one option, and it tends to be highly destructive, highly inefficient, and so the analyst doesn't particularly like conflict because it seems to be very inefficient and ineffective, and they are far more better ways to communicate, So they're avoiding conflict for that reason. The relationship on in person the accommodator, conflict is just ugly. It makes them feel bad. It sort of pollutes their existence, and they see that as a much higher cost. It places a very high value on relationships optimism, being very hope based. So they're going to avoid it for those reasons that. You know, they want to feel connected to you, and conflict doesn't make them feel connected to you. Now, the third type, the assertive. You know, they love it. They say it's combat. They love it, They get into it, they recover from the conflict very quickly. I happen to be a natural born assertive. Donald Trump is a poster child for assertives. It's just one of the three times and love combat. But then don't really pay attention to the long term costs of being openly aggressive because the you know, the adrenaline hit in the moment a victory tends to overshadow how the losses pile up, So we want you know, two or three, we want to avoid that. So the real challenge, though, is we got to collaborate. But negotiation has this feeling to it that it's the loudest, most agreat a voice in the room, the guy who kicks the chair across the room to get his points, screams, slams their hands on a table, storms out. You know, this thing that actually happens a tendency to pollute the collaborative environment. And we don't really see the great negotiators as great negotiators. You know, in my view, one of the greatest negotiators got to be Oprah Winfrey. Nobody sees her as conflict oriented, that her list of great negotiations, her life's achievements based on collaboration and being very positive. And then if you were to try to consider the context of our life having gained tremendous success in an environment filled with maybe some of the most volatile people on earth, Hollywood celebrities. What Hollywood celebrities mad at Oprah? You know what rock fight has she gotten into? You know, who's thrown shade like it is not there simultaneously her financial success and the different phenomenal interviews she's gotten. They were no no holds Bard's interview. You know, you know one of my favorites is Lance armstrong interview. I happen to be acquainted with Lance. I like them a lot. But there was no punches pulled there. That was a negotiation going into that. So spectacular negotiation is really invisible, but we don't know that. Because it's invisible. We don't think of Oprah as a great negotiator. Warren Buffett, we don't think of him as a great negotiator, and they have to be. So that's we're just not aware of what great negotiation really looks like because it looks like great collaboration, great navigation. As soon as you could change the definition from win lose to great collaboration, now people are interested. You know, how to fine negotiation is great collaboration, long relationship where we're both ecstatic about our success. And if you can reframe it like that, then people are a lot more interested in negotiation. I think that's one of the reasons the book has succeeded, because it's not a series of stories where we beat anybody. Sometimes we had to force collaboration with a highly competitive negotiator. That was what kidnapping was about. I'm going to force the kidnapper to collaborate. I'm going to force that guy from al Qaeda into a collaborative conversation. But I'm not going to hit back.

Walk me through how you force that person into collaboration and not hit back, because I think you're right. I think the overarching belief we have is, oh, we got to beat them. We've got to find a way to get what we want from them. Like that's what you think of a negotiation, even in normal times, let alone those high stakes. But how do you do that in that scenario?

Walk me through how you force that person into collaboration and not hit back, because I think you're right. I think the overarching belief we have is, oh, we got to beat them. We've got to find a way to get what we want from them. Like that's what you think of a negotiation, even in normal times, let alone those high stakes. But how do you do that in that scenario?

One of my favorite conversations describing this a number of years ago. I got to hire it to train hostage negotiation team in the Middle East, and the country that I was in very pro western country, a Muslim, you know, ostensibly a Muslim country, but really tolerant of all religions as most of them are. So get brought in to talk to the shik that's the head of kind of terrorism and I'm told in advance, Uh, the shak if we have if al Kinda comes here and grabs people, or if any terrorist organization comes here and grabs people. Understand the shak wants to kill him, that people of his country are his children, and he wants to protect his children at all courts. So you sit down with the Sheik, he's going to want to know how you're gonna protect his people. So I get a meeting with this guy, brilliant, brilliant young man, brilliant. And he looks at me and he says, all right, what are you going to teach my guys to say? And I looked at him and I said, they're gonna say to the Terra's kidnapper on the other end of the phone, what you're doing is a great thing. And his mouth fell open, and I said, now I got you, because you can't wait to hear what I'm going to say next. You were so caught off guard, you were in complete curiosity mode. You're hanging on every syllable that comes out of my mouth. And that's what I'm going to teach you guys to do. And he went, oh, you're hired. But so what is driving the other side in their mind? How do they see what they're doing, What do they see as a justification for it? Like so much conflict, the go away if I can simply recognize what you see as the reason for your problem without agreeing with it. Probably about two years ago, myself and a friend Nicole Benham were hosting a room Monk clubhouse. At the time, you know, the Israel Palestine. It was the water done version of what's going on with Hamas now. Israeli started shelling the Gaza strip because Amas in fact is hiding weapons in hospitals and schools in the press office, and Israel gets tired of it after a while they starts shelling those offices. So it's a milder version of what's going on right now. But the vitriol going on online was huge, and the cole calls me up, she says, you know, we got to find a way to help sell this out. I said, all right, well, we'll do a room on clubhouse and we'll invite people favoring the Palestinians and people favoring the Israelis on and they can talk it out. With one rule, one caveat. Before you say whatever you have to say about what you think of the other side, you got to summarize where they think they're coming from, what their point of view is and as soon as you get it all clear from them, as soon as the other side effectively says that's right, that's how I see it, you could say whatever you want. Now. Did we come to any agreements that night? No? But what was more important was there were no arguments. Soon as somebody tries to articulate how the other side sees things, it actually makes you smarter. I want sort of guy, say, empathy is a species of reason. You know, you're analyzing where are the other side's coming from? And an attempting to genuinely analyze it. You start deactivating their reasons for the escalation, because there are reasons for the escalations. Is at least they don't feel heard. Let me take that one off the table. You don't feel heard. Now we can be in a position where we could actually talk about this. So I'm interviewing. I get this. This thing on fire side is social media app what it is is largely I have guessed in it's life. Q and A bring a woman on head of a coffee company and she says, I use your Israel palestinianthing to negotiate a resolution between two my top executives. They're at each other's throats, and I love them both and I can't lose either one. So remember what we did on you did on Israel Palestine. And I brought them in a room and I said, okay, you could say whatever you want about the other side, but first you got to summarize their position. You got to summarize how they see things and what is motivating them. And she said two things. She said, we resolved it on the spot, and she said it was such a moment that I still cry when I think about it. So, you know, what's all this rambling about. Take a shot at summarizing how the other side sees things. If it doesn't solve the problem on the spot, it at a minimum brings you closer together, and we're all better off closer together.

One of my favorite conversations describing this a number of years ago. I got to hire it to train hostage negotiation team in the Middle East, and the country that I was in very pro western country, a Muslim, you know, ostensibly a Muslim country, but really tolerant of all religions as most of them are. So get brought in to talk to the shik that's the head of kind of terrorism and I'm told in advance, Uh, the shak if we have if al Kinda comes here and grabs people, or if any terrorist organization comes here and grabs people. Understand the shak wants to kill him, that people of his country are his children, and he wants to protect his children at all courts. So you sit down with the Sheik, he's going to want to know how you're gonna protect his people. So I get a meeting with this guy, brilliant, brilliant young man, brilliant. And he looks at me and he says, all right, what are you going to teach my guys to say? And I looked at him and I said, they're gonna say to the Terra's kidnapper on the other end of the phone, what you're doing is a great thing. And his mouth fell open, and I said, now I got you, because you can't wait to hear what I'm going to say next. You were so caught off guard, you were in complete curiosity mode. You're hanging on every syllable that comes out of my mouth. And that's what I'm going to teach you guys to do. And he went, oh, you're hired. But so what is driving the other side in their mind? How do they see what they're doing, What do they see as a justification for it? Like so much conflict, the go away if I can simply recognize what you see as the reason for your problem without agreeing with it. Probably about two years ago, myself and a friend Nicole Benham were hosting a room Monk clubhouse. At the time, you know, the Israel Palestine. It was the water done version of what's going on with Hamas now. Israeli started shelling the Gaza strip because Amas in fact is hiding weapons in hospitals and schools in the press office, and Israel gets tired of it after a while they starts shelling those offices. So it's a milder version of what's going on right now. But the vitriol going on online was huge, and the cole calls me up, she says, you know, we got to find a way to help sell this out. I said, all right, well, we'll do a room on clubhouse and we'll invite people favoring the Palestinians and people favoring the Israelis on and they can talk it out. With one rule, one caveat. Before you say whatever you have to say about what you think of the other side, you got to summarize where they think they're coming from, what their point of view is and as soon as you get it all clear from them, as soon as the other side effectively says that's right, that's how I see it, you could say whatever you want. Now. Did we come to any agreements that night? No? But what was more important was there were no arguments. Soon as somebody tries to articulate how the other side sees things, it actually makes you smarter. I want sort of guy, say, empathy is a species of reason. You know, you're analyzing where are the other side's coming from? And an attempting to genuinely analyze it. You start deactivating their reasons for the escalation, because there are reasons for the escalations. Is at least they don't feel heard. Let me take that one off the table. You don't feel heard. Now we can be in a position where we could actually talk about this. So I'm interviewing. I get this. This thing on fire side is social media app what it is is largely I have guessed in it's life. Q and A bring a woman on head of a coffee company and she says, I use your Israel palestinianthing to negotiate a resolution between two my top executives. They're at each other's throats, and I love them both and I can't lose either one. So remember what we did on you did on Israel Palestine. And I brought them in a room and I said, okay, you could say whatever you want about the other side, but first you got to summarize their position. You got to summarize how they see things and what is motivating them. And she said two things. She said, we resolved it on the spot, and she said it was such a moment that I still cry when I think about it. So, you know, what's all this rambling about. Take a shot at summarizing how the other side sees things. If it doesn't solve the problem on the spot, it at a minimum brings you closer together, and we're all better off closer together.

Yeah. I think it's such a powerful skill. Whether it's in a marriage, whether it's in a friendship, whether it's in the corporate setting. It's such a need. And I find like, as life has got faster and faster and faster, we have less and less time to summarize, and so what we end up doing is we just end up reading someone else's summary. Right, That's what we're doing online on social media is we're reading someone else's summary and analysis of a highly complex situation, and more often than not, we're reading the summary that supports our viewpoint right, not the viewpoint of the other. And so now we have less time we're reading someone else's words, which means we're not even doing the complex computation of trying to understand and comprehend what someone's going through. Hey, you're just catching me as I have my midday pick me up. I'm sure you've heard about JUNI rather and I put all of our love into creating this amazing drink. It's full of new tropics and adaptogens, great for that little breast of energy and hans focus and a happy mind. And guess what, It's only five calories and absolutely no sugar. I hope you're going to try it out. It's available right now at Target if you're a Target shop, I head there right now, and at Sprouts as well this summer. Go grab your Juny. How do you encourage people in this busy, fast pace. You know, we're trying to be efficient environment to actually slow down and embody these skills that actually require us to use our brains.

Yeah. I think it's such a powerful skill. Whether it's in a marriage, whether it's in a friendship, whether it's in the corporate setting. It's such a need. And I find like, as life has got faster and faster and faster, we have less and less time to summarize, and so what we end up doing is we just end up reading someone else's summary. Right, That's what we're doing online on social media is we're reading someone else's summary and analysis of a highly complex situation, and more often than not, we're reading the summary that supports our viewpoint right, not the viewpoint of the other. And so now we have less time we're reading someone else's words, which means we're not even doing the complex computation of trying to understand and comprehend what someone's going through. Hey, you're just catching me as I have my midday pick me up. I'm sure you've heard about JUNI rather and I put all of our love into creating this amazing drink. It's full of new tropics and adaptogens, great for that little breast of energy and hans focus and a happy mind. And guess what, It's only five calories and absolutely no sugar. I hope you're going to try it out. It's available right now at Target if you're a Target shop, I head there right now, and at Sprouts as well this summer. Go grab your Juny. How do you encourage people in this busy, fast pace. You know, we're trying to be efficient environment to actually slow down and embody these skills that actually require us to use our brains.

Most of the time. You got to walk somebody through something and coach them into applying it because we don't see it around us. Is the first problem is we're not seeing anybody do this effectively exactly. That's a great point here, So we get we got no models for it. You know, all we got is models for instigators. The professional agitators. Professional agitators are everywhere. They're not a majority, but the there's enough of the agitators out there, they get tend to get a lot more of attraction.

Most of the time. You got to walk somebody through something and coach them into applying it because we don't see it around us. Is the first problem is we're not seeing anybody do this effectively exactly. That's a great point here, So we get we got no models for it. You know, all we got is models for instigators. The professional agitators. Professional agitators are everywhere. They're not a majority, but the there's enough of the agitators out there, they get tend to get a lot more of attraction.

How would you define a professional agitative just for people to I totally agree.

How would you define a professional agitative just for people to I totally agree.

Yeah, well, it's it's those in the media that are clickbait oriented, agitation oriented. It's highly profitable short term. You know, you're you're getting advertising dollars based on how many views, how many clicks you're getting, and it's so overwhelming, and we're so tired of it. The other thing, we're so tired of it. You know. One of the things that I'm most fascinated with right now is you know the hot tool girl Like. People are so tired of negativity that anything that's like positive and fun and refreshing and catches them off guard. I checked their Instagram today, she got like two million followers with thirty six posts and she's been there for fifteen minutes. But I think it's we have such an appetite for something that's not negative and not designed to be agitating, and a very small number of agitators can turn a peaceful demonstration into a raging mob, and so then they get clicks over that, And most of our media is guilty of that. You know, nobody's got neither the left nor the right has a monopoly on agitation. So Fox is guilty of it, CNN is guilty of it, and they get short term profits, they get a lot of clicks, they get a lot of views. So I think we're not we're not seeing the summaries, we're not seeing the demonstration of understanding. But in reality it accelerates us to a positive outcome by probably about a rate of about fourteen times faster. And it's invisible. It's astonishing, and so since it was invisible, we didn't really see it when it happened. One of the guys on my team, Derek Gaunt, wrote a book called About Leadership. Applying tactical empathy to leadership is called the ego authority Failure. He's got a great stat at the very beginning of it, where rapport based interviews in law enforcement gets you to an agreement slash confession fourteen times faster than anything else, but nobody knows it happened. So then to get good at it, you're never going to get congratulated in the moment. That's the other thing. It's in the moment. It's not that satisfying very much, the way the slot machines are satisfying in Vegas. You know, you lose eighty three at eighty four times on those slot machines, but the winds are so satisfying that's all you notice. So to be really good at this, you focus more on how suddenly we're in a better place, and nobody's congratulating you because they didn't see it happened. So it really has to be intrinsically self satisfying. The reward is getting it done faster and better. Very few people are going to congratulate you on it in the moment.

Yeah, well, it's it's those in the media that are clickbait oriented, agitation oriented. It's highly profitable short term. You know, you're you're getting advertising dollars based on how many views, how many clicks you're getting, and it's so overwhelming, and we're so tired of it. The other thing, we're so tired of it. You know. One of the things that I'm most fascinated with right now is you know the hot tool girl Like. People are so tired of negativity that anything that's like positive and fun and refreshing and catches them off guard. I checked their Instagram today, she got like two million followers with thirty six posts and she's been there for fifteen minutes. But I think it's we have such an appetite for something that's not negative and not designed to be agitating, and a very small number of agitators can turn a peaceful demonstration into a raging mob, and so then they get clicks over that, And most of our media is guilty of that. You know, nobody's got neither the left nor the right has a monopoly on agitation. So Fox is guilty of it, CNN is guilty of it, and they get short term profits, they get a lot of clicks, they get a lot of views. So I think we're not we're not seeing the summaries, we're not seeing the demonstration of understanding. But in reality it accelerates us to a positive outcome by probably about a rate of about fourteen times faster. And it's invisible. It's astonishing, and so since it was invisible, we didn't really see it when it happened. One of the guys on my team, Derek Gaunt, wrote a book called About Leadership. Applying tactical empathy to leadership is called the ego authority Failure. He's got a great stat at the very beginning of it, where rapport based interviews in law enforcement gets you to an agreement slash confession fourteen times faster than anything else, but nobody knows it happened. So then to get good at it, you're never going to get congratulated in the moment. That's the other thing. It's in the moment. It's not that satisfying very much, the way the slot machines are satisfying in Vegas. You know, you lose eighty three at eighty four times on those slot machines, but the winds are so satisfying that's all you notice. So to be really good at this, you focus more on how suddenly we're in a better place, and nobody's congratulating you because they didn't see it happened. So it really has to be intrinsically self satisfying. The reward is getting it done faster and better. Very few people are going to congratulate you on it in the moment.

Yeah, I think that's the only mindset shift we need, is that if we want a real resolution, we want to feel like we've really accomplished thing, we're really moving forward. It requires us to move from that point of view of if we negotiate effectively, If I take time to summarize the other person's opinion and they take the time to do mine, we're actually going to get somewhere, even if it's a slower process, even if it's a harder process. How do you prepare for a negotiation? Because I think a lot of us also think great, I'm going to walk in there, I'm going to try to figure it out. I'm going to say something, But walk us through how you'd prepare for some of the biggest negotiations in your life. What do they look like?

Yeah, I think that's the only mindset shift we need, is that if we want a real resolution, we want to feel like we've really accomplished thing, we're really moving forward. It requires us to move from that point of view of if we negotiate effectively, If I take time to summarize the other person's opinion and they take the time to do mine, we're actually going to get somewhere, even if it's a slower process, even if it's a harder process. How do you prepare for a negotiation? Because I think a lot of us also think great, I'm going to walk in there, I'm going to try to figure it out. I'm going to say something, But walk us through how you'd prepare for some of the biggest negotiations in your life. What do they look like?

Well, I'm gonna I'm going to think of how I would summarize their perspective. That's going to that's going to get really get my wheels turn, and I'm going to get a lot of clues. How do they see things. I've done it enough that it's almost become second nature. You got to do it a lot. Like anything else, it simply requires practice. There's this magic hack for life called gratitude. It's amazing what a difference it could make, and it sounds stupid. I was once in a highly adversarial negotiation. The other side was it wasn an adversary the other side was very deceptive, which is one of my buttons. You know, I don't like deception. One of my main currencies is integrity, so that's a violation of one of my core values. But thinking that put me in a very negative place, and I thought, well, how do I get into this in the first place. The only reason they're trying so hard to do this deal with us is because we're good. It was a training company that wanted to make our training offering part of their platform. So I thought, this is a byproduct this success. I'm actually lucky to even be having this conversation. So you know, I found gratitude in a moment, and then it opened up my mind because you're thirty one percent positive, smarter in a positive frame of mind. So you know, whatever your hack is, and different people have different waysitude, exercise, first thing in the morning, meditation, whatever you could do to clear out your natural negative survival mechanism so that you can be more appreciative of life. And that's one of the ways. And then if I think about that, then I can summarize your perspective. And another thing that I'll usually do is I'll think of the questions that I might normally ask to elicity yes, and I'll switch them so that I'm alictiting a no, do you agree becomes do you disagree? There's a Pavlovian response to yes and no. People if they say yes, they feel like they're being led into a trap. Whether they are or not, it doesn't change the fact that is a general term. Somebody's trying to trap you. Who's gonna litter that path with yeses?

Well, I'm gonna I'm going to think of how I would summarize their perspective. That's going to that's going to get really get my wheels turn, and I'm going to get a lot of clues. How do they see things. I've done it enough that it's almost become second nature. You got to do it a lot. Like anything else, it simply requires practice. There's this magic hack for life called gratitude. It's amazing what a difference it could make, and it sounds stupid. I was once in a highly adversarial negotiation. The other side was it wasn an adversary the other side was very deceptive, which is one of my buttons. You know, I don't like deception. One of my main currencies is integrity, so that's a violation of one of my core values. But thinking that put me in a very negative place, and I thought, well, how do I get into this in the first place. The only reason they're trying so hard to do this deal with us is because we're good. It was a training company that wanted to make our training offering part of their platform. So I thought, this is a byproduct this success. I'm actually lucky to even be having this conversation. So you know, I found gratitude in a moment, and then it opened up my mind because you're thirty one percent positive, smarter in a positive frame of mind. So you know, whatever your hack is, and different people have different waysitude, exercise, first thing in the morning, meditation, whatever you could do to clear out your natural negative survival mechanism so that you can be more appreciative of life. And that's one of the ways. And then if I think about that, then I can summarize your perspective. And another thing that I'll usually do is I'll think of the questions that I might normally ask to elicity yes, and I'll switch them so that I'm alictiting a no, do you agree becomes do you disagree? There's a Pavlovian response to yes and no. People if they say yes, they feel like they're being led into a trap. Whether they are or not, it doesn't change the fact that is a general term. Somebody's trying to trap you. Who's gonna litter that path with yeses?

So when you say something that does not make sense and they say yes, that's moving in the wrong direction.

So when you say something that does not make sense and they say yes, that's moving in the wrong direction.

Well it's it's going to trigger that Pavlovian response. Because the person that cheated him said something to the effect of would you like something for free? Would you like to make more money? Would you like to live in a big house on a hill? And that led him into a trap previously. So it doesn't matter that you were you have integrity, it doesn't matter that you are not doing it. It got done to them enough times already, they're going to have a negative reaction. The ridiculous flip side is the Pavlovian response to saying no is that people feel predicted. They feel safe when they say no. Would you like no? When my son was a teenager, Dad, can I know? But then I'm looking back on I realized every time I said no, I felt all right. So I walled myself off from being walked into anything here, and I would look back at him say, okay, so now what was it that you wanted? Now I could hear more. Haven't protected myself. So I may say to you, you know, look, does this sound like a stupid idea? And then you won't have been triggered, and you'll listen to me. You'll actually to some degree listening with a critical mindset, and you'll think, well, you know, I don't have any problem with that, but your follow on is actually what's important. Now. I don't think it's a stupid idea, but I think here are some things that I want you to think about. You'll give me those freely. Now we're in an actual collaboration. So your original prep at question, how do I prep for negotiation? I'm gonna try to do what I can't. Put myself in a positive frame of mind, work at summarizing the other side's perspective. Think of a couple questions where the answers know where it moves things forward, as opposed to the yes and I've avoided that psychological feeling of the other side feeling I'm trapping them.

Well it's it's going to trigger that Pavlovian response. Because the person that cheated him said something to the effect of would you like something for free? Would you like to make more money? Would you like to live in a big house on a hill? And that led him into a trap previously. So it doesn't matter that you were you have integrity, it doesn't matter that you are not doing it. It got done to them enough times already, they're going to have a negative reaction. The ridiculous flip side is the Pavlovian response to saying no is that people feel predicted. They feel safe when they say no. Would you like no? When my son was a teenager, Dad, can I know? But then I'm looking back on I realized every time I said no, I felt all right. So I walled myself off from being walked into anything here, and I would look back at him say, okay, so now what was it that you wanted? Now I could hear more. Haven't protected myself. So I may say to you, you know, look, does this sound like a stupid idea? And then you won't have been triggered, and you'll listen to me. You'll actually to some degree listening with a critical mindset, and you'll think, well, you know, I don't have any problem with that, but your follow on is actually what's important. Now. I don't think it's a stupid idea, but I think here are some things that I want you to think about. You'll give me those freely. Now we're in an actual collaboration. So your original prep at question, how do I prep for negotiation? I'm gonna try to do what I can't. Put myself in a positive frame of mind, work at summarizing the other side's perspective. Think of a couple questions where the answers know where it moves things forward, as opposed to the yes and I've avoided that psychological feeling of the other side feeling I'm trapping them.

Yeah, those are the things to do. What are some of the biggest mistakes you've seen people make walking in preparing for a negotiation.

Yeah, those are the things to do. What are some of the biggest mistakes you've seen people make walking in preparing for a negotiation.

Well, the inadvertent thing to start off with is, you know, number one, they're gonna they're gonna ask you yes, I'm any question, and then number two, they're gonna make their pitch the value proposition. You know, you know, I got to tell you what's valuable here. Now that's important, but you're out of order on the sequence because the other side's dying to have their say too. If you go first, you kind of rolled over. Well, the whole time you're going, they're thinking, but I got something I want to say, I got something I want to say. It's a voice in the back of their head which is interfering in them listening to you. So I'm gonna start out by trying to hear you out first. I'm gonna want the information from you. I'm gonna want your perspective. I'm also gonna want to know what you think is important going into this conversation. Let's say we're collaborating to do a deal, or you and I are significant others and we want to go with something to eat. I'm going to want to know what's on your mind first, because that's your a priority for you. Then I'm going to know on my list what matches up with what you want instead of maybe I start out with something that's number one on my list, but it's number nine on yours. Now you're distracted by the other eight things that you think are important. I'm going to try to dial into you as quickly as I can because I want to talk about what you think is important because that starts our collaboration. So really understanding where the other side is coming from is information you need for the analyst and for the relationship oriented person. Make sure the person feel good so you're building a relationship.

Well, the inadvertent thing to start off with is, you know, number one, they're gonna they're gonna ask you yes, I'm any question, and then number two, they're gonna make their pitch the value proposition. You know, you know, I got to tell you what's valuable here. Now that's important, but you're out of order on the sequence because the other side's dying to have their say too. If you go first, you kind of rolled over. Well, the whole time you're going, they're thinking, but I got something I want to say, I got something I want to say. It's a voice in the back of their head which is interfering in them listening to you. So I'm gonna start out by trying to hear you out first. I'm gonna want the information from you. I'm gonna want your perspective. I'm also gonna want to know what you think is important going into this conversation. Let's say we're collaborating to do a deal, or you and I are significant others and we want to go with something to eat. I'm going to want to know what's on your mind first, because that's your a priority for you. Then I'm going to know on my list what matches up with what you want instead of maybe I start out with something that's number one on my list, but it's number nine on yours. Now you're distracted by the other eight things that you think are important. I'm going to try to dial into you as quickly as I can because I want to talk about what you think is important because that starts our collaboration. So really understanding where the other side is coming from is information you need for the analyst and for the relationship oriented person. Make sure the person feel good so you're building a relationship.

Have you had I'm sure in your experience you've been speaking to such incoherent individuals on the other side that there isn't a one to nine on their list. There's like a a right like it's topsy turvy because they're not coming at it from a logical rational. A lot of the people sometimes when we're negotiating, we feel like what are you talking about? Like what language are you speaking in and we can feel that even with our partners. People can feel that at work where it's just like I'm talking to a toxic individual who has no idea what they want. They're so off the rocker. Like you know, when you're speaking to someone on the other side who you actually can't figure out, and you're feeling like, I can't even read this person, how do you navigate that?

Have you had I'm sure in your experience you've been speaking to such incoherent individuals on the other side that there isn't a one to nine on their list. There's like a a right like it's topsy turvy because they're not coming at it from a logical rational. A lot of the people sometimes when we're negotiating, we feel like what are you talking about? Like what language are you speaking in and we can feel that even with our partners. People can feel that at work where it's just like I'm talking to a toxic individual who has no idea what they want. They're so off the rocker. Like you know, when you're speaking to someone on the other side who you actually can't figure out, and you're feeling like, I can't even read this person, how do you navigate that?

Well, I liberate myself from the idea of rationality or logic. I really see those two things as beauty. Beauty is in the air of the beholder, and so when I let go of that, and then I think in terms of patterns and then other than someone who's actually paranoid, schizophrenic, whether wiring is actually wrong, and someone who's offering from or Layman's terms wiring issues versus chemical issues what we used to refer to as manic, depressive or bipolar. You know, they change those terms all the time. Those are principally chemical imbalances, paranoids, gizophrenic. If somebody's actually hearing voices, it's a problem, but you don't know what the voices are saying. That those people are in fact unpredictable. They manifest themselves very rarely in hostage negotiation. We also found out that unfortunately, one of the downsides of being a meth addict. Someone could be clean for years, but meth amphetamines does actual damage to the wiring and they'll have an episode when they've been sober for years that mimics of paranoids gizophrenic. So the people that are actually messed up in that fashion are very rare. Mostly it's chemical imbalance. And if you look at it like that, and then you say, all right, so the patterns here. Let me look for the patterns, and then they're evidently predictable if you let go of the judgment that it's rational or irrational and you just start looking for patterns and then listening for them. Now, they could be so upset with negative emotions that they are in a state of confusion, very much like the guy they called in on a hotline that night. So I'm just I'm gonna sort of pick off the negativity one at a time, and I'm gonna feed it back, and I know that's going to clear your head. In a business scenario or even a personal scenario, people who feel under a tremendous amount of pressure, tend to be very demanding and can be very attacking, which feels predatory. It even feels like, you know, the magic phrase gas lighting, when in fact they're under a massive amount of pressure. A company that I just did some training for coaching and training. They're based out of the Middle East, but their executives are international in nature, and they happen to be in a discussion in a deal in South Africa and the person on the other side of the table they called a bully, very attacking, not sticking to the written agreement. So of course they're in the negotiation. The lawyer's on the table side that I'm coaching. What's the lawyer going to do. It's going to open his laptop. He's going to read you the agreement, which does not help. It's a great way to pour gasoline on a fire. Let me remind you of what our agreement says, thinking that would help. So the guy. Now, the guy gets worse and he starts adding profanity and telling him that he's going to rewrite the agreement. They keep their poise, and when you're being attacked that much, if you don't come up with a great thing to say, the most graceful. The smartest move is the witcherw quietly. So the lead said, it's probably not a good time for this discussion. We'll be happy to leave. Guy settles down a little bit. They hit him with a couple of labels. They get to a good place in a conversation, but then on the way out, he says to the guy, sounds like you're under a lot of pressure. And a guy completely relaxed, he says, oh man, he says, you don't understand what's going on over here. I've got all these demands, I got people coming at me from all sides. And the recognition of the pressure that this sounds like you're under a lot of pressure for someone he perceived as an attacking, gas lighting bully, the guy's being driven by an internal pressure that he was having trouble keeping control over. And that changed everything. That off fan label and it turned everything around.

Well, I liberate myself from the idea of rationality or logic. I really see those two things as beauty. Beauty is in the air of the beholder, and so when I let go of that, and then I think in terms of patterns and then other than someone who's actually paranoid, schizophrenic, whether wiring is actually wrong, and someone who's offering from or Layman's terms wiring issues versus chemical issues what we used to refer to as manic, depressive or bipolar. You know, they change those terms all the time. Those are principally chemical imbalances, paranoids, gizophrenic. If somebody's actually hearing voices, it's a problem, but you don't know what the voices are saying. That those people are in fact unpredictable. They manifest themselves very rarely in hostage negotiation. We also found out that unfortunately, one of the downsides of being a meth addict. Someone could be clean for years, but meth amphetamines does actual damage to the wiring and they'll have an episode when they've been sober for years that mimics of paranoids gizophrenic. So the people that are actually messed up in that fashion are very rare. Mostly it's chemical imbalance. And if you look at it like that, and then you say, all right, so the patterns here. Let me look for the patterns, and then they're evidently predictable if you let go of the judgment that it's rational or irrational and you just start looking for patterns and then listening for them. Now, they could be so upset with negative emotions that they are in a state of confusion, very much like the guy they called in on a hotline that night. So I'm just I'm gonna sort of pick off the negativity one at a time, and I'm gonna feed it back, and I know that's going to clear your head. In a business scenario or even a personal scenario, people who feel under a tremendous amount of pressure, tend to be very demanding and can be very attacking, which feels predatory. It even feels like, you know, the magic phrase gas lighting, when in fact they're under a massive amount of pressure. A company that I just did some training for coaching and training. They're based out of the Middle East, but their executives are international in nature, and they happen to be in a discussion in a deal in South Africa and the person on the other side of the table they called a bully, very attacking, not sticking to the written agreement. So of course they're in the negotiation. The lawyer's on the table side that I'm coaching. What's the lawyer going to do. It's going to open his laptop. He's going to read you the agreement, which does not help. It's a great way to pour gasoline on a fire. Let me remind you of what our agreement says, thinking that would help. So the guy. Now, the guy gets worse and he starts adding profanity and telling him that he's going to rewrite the agreement. They keep their poise, and when you're being attacked that much, if you don't come up with a great thing to say, the most graceful. The smartest move is the witcherw quietly. So the lead said, it's probably not a good time for this discussion. We'll be happy to leave. Guy settles down a little bit. They hit him with a couple of labels. They get to a good place in a conversation, but then on the way out, he says to the guy, sounds like you're under a lot of pressure. And a guy completely relaxed, he says, oh man, he says, you don't understand what's going on over here. I've got all these demands, I got people coming at me from all sides. And the recognition of the pressure that this sounds like you're under a lot of pressure for someone he perceived as an attacking, gas lighting bully, the guy's being driven by an internal pressure that he was having trouble keeping control over. And that changed everything. That off fan label and it turned everything around.

Can you negotiate with a narcissist.

Can you negotiate with a narcissist.

If you look for the patterns and then you know the narcissists of demanding So short answer is yes, But how are you going to do it? You got to make what you want the path to where they want to get. Ultimately, narcisists are self centered, so let them be self centered or whatever it is that they're after. Make your want a step on the journey to their goal. And if you can change the sequencing around, that's how you can get the upper hand on a narcissist.

If you look for the patterns and then you know the narcissists of demanding So short answer is yes, But how are you going to do it? You got to make what you want the path to where they want to get. Ultimately, narcisists are self centered, so let them be self centered or whatever it is that they're after. Make your want a step on the journey to their goal. And if you can change the sequencing around, that's how you can get the upper hand on a narcissist.

One of the.

One of the.

Of course, you can negotiate with a narcissist if you've been trained by the Black Swan group Chris Voss. Yeah, we'll train you, we'll teach you.

Of course, you can negotiate with a narcissist if you've been trained by the Black Swan group Chris Voss. Yeah, we'll train you, we'll teach you.

It's whether you want to or not. It's whether you want to negotiate with a narcissist in your life.

It's whether you want to or not. It's whether you want to negotiate with a narcissist in your life.

Well, and actually that's a great secondary point because this is going to be repetitive behavior. One of the things we advise people to do is terminate the relationship. You know, are they dragging you down? You can do a couple of things to try to The psychologists of therapists would call a boundary setting. Sometimes you set a good hard boundary and the other side says, oh, I respect that they're looking for you to set gently, not aggressively. They're looking for that boundary. Set a couple of boundaries gently, politely but firmly, and find out if they're going to straighten up. Then you can continue the relationship, you make an attempt to sent the boundaries a couple of gentle attempts. They don't pay any attention to it, whether it's personal or professional. That's a preview the future. You don't need to be. You don't need to be attached to that. You're not going to be who God puts you here to be by being attached to people that drag you down. And I think a lot of us do that for good intention, very good reason, and we're not required to continue once, you know, be willing to be smarter today than you were yesterday.

Well, and actually that's a great secondary point because this is going to be repetitive behavior. One of the things we advise people to do is terminate the relationship. You know, are they dragging you down? You can do a couple of things to try to The psychologists of therapists would call a boundary setting. Sometimes you set a good hard boundary and the other side says, oh, I respect that they're looking for you to set gently, not aggressively. They're looking for that boundary. Set a couple of boundaries gently, politely but firmly, and find out if they're going to straighten up. Then you can continue the relationship, you make an attempt to sent the boundaries a couple of gentle attempts. They don't pay any attention to it, whether it's personal or professional. That's a preview the future. You don't need to be. You don't need to be attached to that. You're not going to be who God puts you here to be by being attached to people that drag you down. And I think a lot of us do that for good intention, very good reason, and we're not required to continue once, you know, be willing to be smarter today than you were yesterday.

Do we ignore the patons? Is that what it is?

Do we ignore the patons? Is that what it is?

I think we do. I think a lot of us do for again, for different reasons. The relationship pointed people the accommodators, they're very hope based and they have this tremendous faith and hope, so to speak. And there's a lot of feedback in that. You know, I think the world is largely a very supportive place. If the world wasn't largely on our side, we wouldn't have continued as a species. We'd be dead, we'd go on extinct. You know, we're not the most durable. You know, we don't. We don't have, uh, you know, a fair fight with most of the predators on a planet, which is what God gave us, we'd lose most of the time. So that means that I'm a firm believer that the world is largely very supposed supportive and on our side. So that reinforces the accommodators because the numbers are on their side. They're just not real good in the anywhere from ten to thirty percent of the people that are that are that are situations that are harmful, So we have reason for sticking in there and then allowing wisdom to get as smarter as we go, then we eliminate more and more of the people that are dragging ustaff.

I think we do. I think a lot of us do for again, for different reasons. The relationship pointed people the accommodators, they're very hope based and they have this tremendous faith and hope, so to speak. And there's a lot of feedback in that. You know, I think the world is largely a very supportive place. If the world wasn't largely on our side, we wouldn't have continued as a species. We'd be dead, we'd go on extinct. You know, we're not the most durable. You know, we don't. We don't have, uh, you know, a fair fight with most of the predators on a planet, which is what God gave us, we'd lose most of the time. So that means that I'm a firm believer that the world is largely very supposed supportive and on our side. So that reinforces the accommodators because the numbers are on their side. They're just not real good in the anywhere from ten to thirty percent of the people that are that are that are situations that are harmful, So we have reason for sticking in there and then allowing wisdom to get as smarter as we go, then we eliminate more and more of the people that are dragging ustaff.

If you feel like you're one of those people that people always take advantage of, I can imagine a lot of people that are listening may feel like they've been an accommodated but now they've started to feel like people always take advantage of me. I feel used. I feel like I'm the one who's always getting the short end of the stick. Like, how do you shift that pattern for your life? Because you've now made people believe that that's who you are, and all of a sudden Now you want to change who you are? How do you go about that transition and shift and help the way so that you no longer feel that everyone's taking advantage of you.

If you feel like you're one of those people that people always take advantage of, I can imagine a lot of people that are listening may feel like they've been an accommodated but now they've started to feel like people always take advantage of me. I feel used. I feel like I'm the one who's always getting the short end of the stick. Like, how do you shift that pattern for your life? Because you've now made people believe that that's who you are, and all of a sudden Now you want to change who you are? How do you go about that transition and shift and help the way so that you no longer feel that everyone's taking advantage of you.

Yeah, the healthy way to start with is first to recognition is that you're not really helping them. You know, if they're taking an advantage of you, you're effectively a crutch. And nobody becomes their best self by leaning on a crutch. So not only you're not helping yourself, you're not really helping them to do the best for them is to let them get out there and fend on their own, you know, let them deal with it. They need, they need to deal with reality. You're not helping them by letting them lean on you. All right, So let's say you're willing to accept that. Now, how do you how do you get out of it? And again, I'm going to refer it to one of my negotiation heroes, Oprah Winfrey. I'm in a discussion with one of her top executives, and I was telling this executive, Yeah, our philosophy is the last impression is the lasting and pression, so always end positively, no matter what, but end, And she said, yeah, that's exactly Oprah's philosophy, and she says, in the entertainment industry, it's usually in an alemo out a taxi. With Oprah, it's in an alemo out almo. No matter what, at the end of any relationship, we have to make people remind them that we love them and that we value them, and then we have to effectively we might need to part company. And I'm having a conversation, confrontational confrontation. Oprah Winfrey has taking people to the woodshed, but she does it in such a positive way and a way that she underscores to them that they feel valued, that they're okay with it. In this conversation, she finishes by saying, like, whatever you do is your decision, and I want you to know that if you decide not to participate in this interview, I will always love you, I will always be supportive of you, I will always have your back. And so that was her way of saying, it's my way of the highway, and if you choose the highway, I'm still on your side, but we are going to part company at this point in time. And finding a way to gently say enough, should you ever change your mind, I'm here for you, and then what's wrong?