Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth, spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a meet and greet with photos.

Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth, spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a meet and greet with photos.

Tickets are on sale now.

Tickets are on sale now.

Head to Jsheddy, dop me Forward, slash Tour and get yours today. And what I found is that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success and joy, and the only place that does is peace. And peace is me saying I'm going to do everything I can and then leave the result up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is around me. But I'm going to do everything I possibly can because I think there may be a lot of people listening right now who are doing something where they studied for it. They were educated for it, they worked hard for it. Their parents maybe even were really impressed that they did it, and now they're at an age where they're going I think I want to change my career. Like I don't think this satisfies me anymore.

Head to Jsheddy, dop me Forward, slash Tour and get yours today. And what I found is that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success and joy, and the only place that does is peace. And peace is me saying I'm going to do everything I can and then leave the result up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is around me. But I'm going to do everything I possibly can because I think there may be a lot of people listening right now who are doing something where they studied for it. They were educated for it, they worked hard for it. Their parents maybe even were really impressed that they did it, and now they're at an age where they're going I think I want to change my career. Like I don't think this satisfies me anymore.

The number one health and wellness podcast.

The number one health and wellness podcast.

Jay Seti, Jay Shetty Only.

Jay Seti, Jay Shetty Only.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host, Jay Shetty, and I am so grateful that you've decided to join me today. This is a very special episode because I'm in Qatar at Web Summit and right now I'm sitting inside the iHeart studio and there are people around the studio who have headphones on who can listen to the podcast. Hello everyone outside. We've never done this before ever, which is awesome. And I'm really excited because my best friend of nearly the last two decades now is in the house. He recently moved to Dubai. We're in Doha. He's flown over so that we can hang out because we now need to schedule our hangouts because that's what happens with adult friendships. And I'm so grateful because I thought I'd invite him on the show today so that we can share some of the most pivotal moments of our friendship careers life over the last two decades, and I thought it would be a special treat for you. So welcome to the episode, Nanda, who is in the studio with me. Nanda, thanks for joining me.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host, Jay Shetty, and I am so grateful that you've decided to join me today. This is a very special episode because I'm in Qatar at Web Summit and right now I'm sitting inside the iHeart studio and there are people around the studio who have headphones on who can listen to the podcast. Hello everyone outside. We've never done this before ever, which is awesome. And I'm really excited because my best friend of nearly the last two decades now is in the house. He recently moved to Dubai. We're in Doha. He's flown over so that we can hang out because we now need to schedule our hangouts because that's what happens with adult friendships. And I'm so grateful because I thought I'd invite him on the show today so that we can share some of the most pivotal moments of our friendship careers life over the last two decades, and I thought it would be a special treat for you. So welcome to the episode, Nanda, who is in the studio with me. Nanda, thanks for joining me.

Thanks so much.

Thanks so much.

Jay. I can't believe that we've known each other for nineteen years and we speak probably three times a week, and you choose to drop about half an hour ago that I'd like to bring you onto the podcast, like, give me an opportunity to prepare. This is my big moment. And literally I'm meeting a berg and you're like, actually, I think you should come on the podcast.

Jay. I can't believe that we've known each other for nineteen years and we speak probably three times a week, and you choose to drop about half an hour ago that I'd like to bring you onto the podcast, like, give me an opportunity to prepare. This is my big moment. And literally I'm meeting a berg and you're like, actually, I think you should come on the podcast.

Number That's exactly what happened.

Number That's exactly what happened.

We were having a casual conversation, even though we have three casual conversations a week.

We were having a casual conversation, even though we have three casual conversations a week.

And I was just like, yeah, you know, it would be really fun.

And I was just like, yeah, you know, it would be really fun.

We've never done this before and it would be a really good idea, and I thought it'd be fresh for my amazing community to hear about our friendship life, the journey that we've both been on, the journey that I've been on through your perspective. And yes, just so everyone knows, Nanda's had no time to prepare. We both came up with this. Well, no, he didn't come up with this idea. I came up with this idea thirty minutes ago. And here we are, so let's de it. I've known Nanda ever since before I became a monk, and I remember actually saying that to you.

We've never done this before and it would be a really good idea, and I thought it'd be fresh for my amazing community to hear about our friendship life, the journey that we've both been on, the journey that I've been on through your perspective. And yes, just so everyone knows, Nanda's had no time to prepare. We both came up with this. Well, no, he didn't come up with this idea. I came up with this idea thirty minutes ago. And here we are, so let's de it. I've known Nanda ever since before I became a monk, and I remember actually saying that to you.

I wanted to do that.

I wanted to do that.

I then even talked to you when I was leaving the monastery and all the challenges of reintegration of my health and everything else, all the way through to which we'll talk about some of these events of spending time in New York together in the early stages of my career LA and now all the way through to Dubai, Doha, and so where should we starting under.

I then even talked to you when I was leaving the monastery and all the challenges of reintegration of my health and everything else, all the way through to which we'll talk about some of these events of spending time in New York together in the early stages of my career LA and now all the way through to Dubai, Doha, and so where should we starting under.

It's just incredible to think nineteen years is a long long time. And I certainly remember the first time I did meet you back in two thousand and six, and yeah, that journey that you just talked about. The thing that just jumps to me is I think people already know a little bit about your desire to become a monk. And when I first met you, you were out of the box thinker. You were like, Okay, I know I can crush it in the corporate world, but I want to do something different. So I really want to start with when you left the ashram. And the reason I want to start with that is because I remember that conversation very very clearly. You're heartbroken because you went in with a very clear idea of I'm doing this for life, like I'm signed up. We spoken about it many times before. For those of you that don't know Jay, he's an all or nothing guy, so a real extremist in the sense of if I'm going to achieve something, I'm going to go all in. So I want to want you to really share how did that feel, because I guess that was the first inverted commas failure for something that was really caught who you were and what you wanted to do. As you're offering to the world.

It's just incredible to think nineteen years is a long long time. And I certainly remember the first time I did meet you back in two thousand and six, and yeah, that journey that you just talked about. The thing that just jumps to me is I think people already know a little bit about your desire to become a monk. And when I first met you, you were out of the box thinker. You were like, Okay, I know I can crush it in the corporate world, but I want to do something different. So I really want to start with when you left the ashram. And the reason I want to start with that is because I remember that conversation very very clearly. You're heartbroken because you went in with a very clear idea of I'm doing this for life, like I'm signed up. We spoken about it many times before. For those of you that don't know Jay, he's an all or nothing guy, so a real extremist in the sense of if I'm going to achieve something, I'm going to go all in. So I want to want you to really share how did that feel, because I guess that was the first inverted commas failure for something that was really caught who you were and what you wanted to do. As you're offering to the world.

Well, I want people to know also that now we're friends, but in the beginning of our relationship, you or my mentor, because you'd been practicing spirituality for far longer than me, and so when I first came in, you were someone that I turned to for advice, and of course I still do that today as a friend, but at that time it was very much so you were sharing with me experience insight, and so it was natural for me to come to you at that time. And I've always described it like a divorce because I think that's the only analogy that makes sense for someone who doesn't know what it feels like to become a monk and leave. It feels like I got married for three years to the love of my life and then I figured out that it wasn't going to last and that it wasn't going to work. So the heartbreak you'd feel from a breakup or a divorce is the heartbreak I felt from leaving the monastery. Because, let me paint a picture for everyone, I really didn't know what I was going to do. I think a lot of people feel like I had a plan, or I had a strategy, or I.

Well, I want people to know also that now we're friends, but in the beginning of our relationship, you or my mentor, because you'd been practicing spirituality for far longer than me, and so when I first came in, you were someone that I turned to for advice, and of course I still do that today as a friend, but at that time it was very much so you were sharing with me experience insight, and so it was natural for me to come to you at that time. And I've always described it like a divorce because I think that's the only analogy that makes sense for someone who doesn't know what it feels like to become a monk and leave. It feels like I got married for three years to the love of my life and then I figured out that it wasn't going to last and that it wasn't going to work. So the heartbreak you'd feel from a breakup or a divorce is the heartbreak I felt from leaving the monastery. Because, let me paint a picture for everyone, I really didn't know what I was going to do. I think a lot of people feel like I had a plan, or I had a strategy, or I.

Knew what I was going to do. I had no clue.

Knew what I was going to do. I had no clue.

And if I'm completely honest, I was really scared about going back to the workplace because I was worried. I was thinking, wait a minute, do I have to go back into consulting or financi or business because that's what I would have done. Will I be able to make it in that space? How will I be able to survive? I've been doing what I love for three years, which is study wisdom, teach it, share, do a lot of philanthropy work. That's what I've been doing. How am I going to do that in the workplace? So I had no clarity. I was moving back in with my parents, which felt like a failure. I remember the community having judgment over my decision.

And if I'm completely honest, I was really scared about going back to the workplace because I was worried. I was thinking, wait a minute, do I have to go back into consulting or financi or business because that's what I would have done. Will I be able to make it in that space? How will I be able to survive? I've been doing what I love for three years, which is study wisdom, teach it, share, do a lot of philanthropy work. That's what I've been doing. How am I going to do that in the workplace? So I had no clarity. I was moving back in with my parents, which felt like a failure. I remember the community having judgment over my decision.

Right. It wasn't like I came back to a fanfare of no.

Right. It wasn't like I came back to a fanfare of no.

There wasn't. Yeah, in a bizarre way, there were certainly some people that were like, oh, really, you think you can do this? And so when you didn't end up doing it because of the health challenges and other reasons that came up, yeah, I'm sure it would have been a real kick in the face. And I think we speak about this all the time in terms of plot twist, but the way the journey has then unfolded is really remarkable. But I certainly remember those early days where it was like I just need to pay my bills, Like what am I going to do? Like what is my core skill set here? And I'm sure you shared it in other places, but all the different jobs you were applying to, all the rejections you got, we wore Yeah, we read it in books all the time, but this is real, this is real life, and for me it's been an inspiration seeing you on this journey. And one of the things I want to talk about in this podcast and in the five minutes you gave me to prepare was was this idea of the beast mindset that you can clock into. And we speak about this all the time. Jay has this belief that everyone can unlock this part of their brain that really fulfills their potential. And I think that in those times of challenge, that's when your backwards against the wall, you really found out who you were, and I guess you also found out who your friends were in that moment.

There wasn't. Yeah, in a bizarre way, there were certainly some people that were like, oh, really, you think you can do this? And so when you didn't end up doing it because of the health challenges and other reasons that came up, yeah, I'm sure it would have been a real kick in the face. And I think we speak about this all the time in terms of plot twist, but the way the journey has then unfolded is really remarkable. But I certainly remember those early days where it was like I just need to pay my bills, Like what am I going to do? Like what is my core skill set here? And I'm sure you shared it in other places, but all the different jobs you were applying to, all the rejections you got, we wore Yeah, we read it in books all the time, but this is real, this is real life, and for me it's been an inspiration seeing you on this journey. And one of the things I want to talk about in this podcast and in the five minutes you gave me to prepare was was this idea of the beast mindset that you can clock into. And we speak about this all the time. Jay has this belief that everyone can unlock this part of their brain that really fulfills their potential. And I think that in those times of challenge, that's when your backwards against the wall, you really found out who you were, and I guess you also found out who your friends were in that moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I always look back to a piece of advice that Thomas Power, one of my other mentors in life, would often say to me. He'd say that when you're in moments of pain, that's when you'll find your potential.

I always look back to a piece of advice that Thomas Power, one of my other mentors in life, would often say to me. He'd say that when you're in moments of pain, that's when you'll find your potential.

And whenever you used to.

And whenever you used to.

Say that, I used to be like, yeah, yeah, all right, like yeah, I used to be like okay, like I know my potential. I'm pretty okay, I'll figure it out. And then when I was in those moments, so at that time when we're talking about right now. I was rejected from forty companies and I didn't even get an interview at those companies. And I'm someone who got a first class degree, yep, and so not getting an interview at forty companies. And I'm saying this not for you to think, oh, Jay, you're amazing. I'm saying this because I actually feel a lot of you might be in this position right now where you're trying to make a transition in your career. You're trying to make a new job, you're trying to sell a new product, you're building a new business, and all you're getting is rejection after rejection after rejection. And that experience gave to me was two things. One was all you need is one yes. All you need is one yes. All I needed was one company, Accentia, to say we're going to give you a shot.

Say that, I used to be like, yeah, yeah, all right, like yeah, I used to be like okay, like I know my potential. I'm pretty okay, I'll figure it out. And then when I was in those moments, so at that time when we're talking about right now. I was rejected from forty companies and I didn't even get an interview at those companies. And I'm someone who got a first class degree, yep, and so not getting an interview at forty companies. And I'm saying this not for you to think, oh, Jay, you're amazing. I'm saying this because I actually feel a lot of you might be in this position right now where you're trying to make a transition in your career. You're trying to make a new job, you're trying to sell a new product, you're building a new business, and all you're getting is rejection after rejection after rejection. And that experience gave to me was two things. One was all you need is one yes. All you need is one yes. All I needed was one company, Accentia, to say we're going to give you a shot.

Yeah, and we're going to put.

Yeah, and we're going to put.

You on a graduate scheme at twenty five, twenty six years old, but we're going to give you a shot. So that's one thing. And the second thing I learned is that it's all a game of odds. Yes, it's all about the law of odds. And what I mean by that is it is simply as basic as the more doors you knock on, the more open. So if you've not had any open doors, you just haven't knocked on enough. And so I think I learned those two really critical skills. And then fast forward a few years later, which we'll get to, when I was four months away from being broke, it was the same principles I had to go back to, was all you need is one yes, and if no doors have opened, you just haven't knocked on enough.

You on a graduate scheme at twenty five, twenty six years old, but we're going to give you a shot. So that's one thing. And the second thing I learned is that it's all a game of odds. Yes, it's all about the law of odds. And what I mean by that is it is simply as basic as the more doors you knock on, the more open. So if you've not had any open doors, you just haven't knocked on enough. And so I think I learned those two really critical skills. And then fast forward a few years later, which we'll get to, when I was four months away from being broke, it was the same principles I had to go back to, was all you need is one yes, and if no doors have opened, you just haven't knocked on enough.

Well, one of the interesting things about that is in order to knock on doors, you need humility because the likelihood is you're going to not on the door and it's not going to open. It's going to take that much. And in the monastery, obviously we focus very much on the principle of humility. And again it sounds great in the books, but can you actually live it, Like if this is really my service in life, and I'm obviously thinking about it now, like I transition from law to what I'm doing now, which is as a leadership coach and an entrepreneur and trying to sell that's not natural to me. It's really uncomfortable, actually, And the reason it's uncomfortable is because I have to go to people and say, would you like my service? I'm very happy to provide the service, but yeah, I think it requires real humility and continuing to do it, not from a place of desperation, but really from a place of service. And I think I think you nail that, and that's why, as we say, the universe reciprocated.

Well, one of the interesting things about that is in order to knock on doors, you need humility because the likelihood is you're going to not on the door and it's not going to open. It's going to take that much. And in the monastery, obviously we focus very much on the principle of humility. And again it sounds great in the books, but can you actually live it, Like if this is really my service in life, and I'm obviously thinking about it now, like I transition from law to what I'm doing now, which is as a leadership coach and an entrepreneur and trying to sell that's not natural to me. It's really uncomfortable, actually, And the reason it's uncomfortable is because I have to go to people and say, would you like my service? I'm very happy to provide the service, but yeah, I think it requires real humility and continuing to do it, not from a place of desperation, but really from a place of service. And I think I think you nail that, and that's why, as we say, the universe reciprocated.

Yeah, it's a really fine point you brought out, and it's challenging because I think we operate from two places as humans. One is passive, yes, and so we're like, oh, it will happen when it happens. If the universe providesids, it will work out just the way it's meant to. And we say these phrases, but beneath them there's an insecurity and an uncertainty. And the opposite way we function as humans is we're pressured. So we think, oh my gosh, that person's already sold their company and they're only thirty five, and oh my gosh, that person just made one hundred thousand dollars doing that, and oh my god that So there's pressure. So we either function from being passive it will happen when it's happened, or pressure, Oh my god, it's not happening for me. And what I found is that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success and joy, and the only place that does is peace. And peace is me saying I'm going to do everything I can and then leave the result up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is around me. But I'm going to do everything I possibly can. And it goes back to your point. And by the way, I've seen you do this, and I think it's in I wanted to talk about it through stories that people may not be familiar with. You were a really successful lawyer. You were doing great, and you decided that it wasn't fulfilling you. And I actually want to ask you about that because I think there may be a lot of people listening right now who are doing something where they studied for it, they were educated for it, they worked hard for it, Their parents maybe even were really impressed that they did it, and now they're at an age where they're going I think I want to change my career, like I don't think this satisfies me anymore. And it's harder when you've done something like law which took years of training, years of building up. How did you get comfortable with giving up your feeling around sunk cost bias? For anyone who doesn't know, sunk cost bias does an economic term which means I've already invested so much time, money, or energy down this path. And usually what it does is it keeps you on that path because you think I've invested too much to let it go. That's why people don't change careers, It's why people don't break up from relationships, It's why people don't do any of those things. For you, what finally gave you confidence to say, you know what, even though I'm really good at law, even though I make a really good living, even though I have a family and two kids, I'm still going to take a risk Because in my eyes, me going off to become a monk was a risk, but you pivoting your career at that age was also a risk.

Yeah, it's a really fine point you brought out, and it's challenging because I think we operate from two places as humans. One is passive, yes, and so we're like, oh, it will happen when it happens. If the universe providesids, it will work out just the way it's meant to. And we say these phrases, but beneath them there's an insecurity and an uncertainty. And the opposite way we function as humans is we're pressured. So we think, oh my gosh, that person's already sold their company and they're only thirty five, and oh my gosh, that person just made one hundred thousand dollars doing that, and oh my god that So there's pressure. So we either function from being passive it will happen when it's happened, or pressure, Oh my god, it's not happening for me. And what I found is that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success and joy, and the only place that does is peace. And peace is me saying I'm going to do everything I can and then leave the result up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is around me. But I'm going to do everything I possibly can. And it goes back to your point. And by the way, I've seen you do this, and I think it's in I wanted to talk about it through stories that people may not be familiar with. You were a really successful lawyer. You were doing great, and you decided that it wasn't fulfilling you. And I actually want to ask you about that because I think there may be a lot of people listening right now who are doing something where they studied for it, they were educated for it, they worked hard for it, Their parents maybe even were really impressed that they did it, and now they're at an age where they're going I think I want to change my career, like I don't think this satisfies me anymore. And it's harder when you've done something like law which took years of training, years of building up. How did you get comfortable with giving up your feeling around sunk cost bias? For anyone who doesn't know, sunk cost bias does an economic term which means I've already invested so much time, money, or energy down this path. And usually what it does is it keeps you on that path because you think I've invested too much to let it go. That's why people don't change careers, It's why people don't break up from relationships, It's why people don't do any of those things. For you, what finally gave you confidence to say, you know what, even though I'm really good at law, even though I make a really good living, even though I have a family and two kids, I'm still going to take a risk Because in my eyes, me going off to become a monk was a risk, but you pivoting your career at that age was also a risk.

What got you there, it was a huge risk, and it was in terms of the investment in the sunk cost was a three year law degree, a one year LPC, a two year training contract, and then ten years post qualified in law. So that's a lot of years of studying to try and become a specialist in something. And at that point, I think two things happen. You get the golden handcuffs, i e. The salary goes up, and whilst the salary is going up, your standard of living has also gone up. So you've then got the mortgage. As you know, at that point, I was already married with two kids as well, so it was a huge risk, but I think it came. I mean, I certainly got some courage from you, and I'm really grateful for those walks around central London when you were in that period of transition and you're incurring me. And I remember you specifically saying, hey, Nanda, you know when you're at your best is when you're talking to people and when you're coaching people and when you're public speaking, So why don't you do that? And I'm like, oroh, that's not a career. That's not a career. Unless I'm speaking in court, that's not a career. So you really helped me think outside of the box, and you touched on the cultural nuances and you joke about it all the time, right, like as an Indian, it's a doctor, a lawyer.

What got you there, it was a huge risk, and it was in terms of the investment in the sunk cost was a three year law degree, a one year LPC, a two year training contract, and then ten years post qualified in law. So that's a lot of years of studying to try and become a specialist in something. And at that point, I think two things happen. You get the golden handcuffs, i e. The salary goes up, and whilst the salary is going up, your standard of living has also gone up. So you've then got the mortgage. As you know, at that point, I was already married with two kids as well, so it was a huge risk, but I think it came. I mean, I certainly got some courage from you, and I'm really grateful for those walks around central London when you were in that period of transition and you're incurring me. And I remember you specifically saying, hey, Nanda, you know when you're at your best is when you're talking to people and when you're coaching people and when you're public speaking, So why don't you do that? And I'm like, oroh, that's not a career. That's not a career. Unless I'm speaking in court, that's not a career. So you really helped me think outside of the box, and you touched on the cultural nuances and you joke about it all the time, right, like as an Indian, it's a doctor, a lawyer.

What's the third or a failure?

What's the third or a failure?

Right?

Right?

Exactly, so you were already winning.

Exactly, so you were already winning.

I was already winning in life. That was My mom was happy, my dad is, My grandparents were happy, like I was the chosen one. When I go to family events, and all of a sudden, what I found was they were resisting to change, not because they didn't love me, but simply because they'd also come to the country and so security was their primary driver. So out of love, they were like, why would you want to do this? You're now so close to where you ultimately want to be. But of course, I think that's where spirituality really comes in, because it makes us think about, well, where do we really want to be and what really makes us thrive. So in my case, I found a huge amount of courage from the fact that the bits that I enjoyed in law were like when I'd talk to clients or when I would do conferences within the legal industry or business development people people people. So I was like, okay, I like it. Fortunate enough, I managed to go ton to a four day week. On my non working day, I worked and I got myself qualified as an ICF credit coach. I started working and I got the feedback, the validation to say, this is a runner, this can work, and so yeah, the rest is history. But it wasn't easy by any means. But I often say you need cheerleaders around you at that time because self doubt is going to be all over you. And so I'm so grateful to you because I really feel like you were a pivotal person, just as I was a pivotal person for you when you were younger at that particular time. You reciprocated tenfold because you were there for me and maybe believe it's possible.

I was already winning in life. That was My mom was happy, my dad is, My grandparents were happy, like I was the chosen one. When I go to family events, and all of a sudden, what I found was they were resisting to change, not because they didn't love me, but simply because they'd also come to the country and so security was their primary driver. So out of love, they were like, why would you want to do this? You're now so close to where you ultimately want to be. But of course, I think that's where spirituality really comes in, because it makes us think about, well, where do we really want to be and what really makes us thrive. So in my case, I found a huge amount of courage from the fact that the bits that I enjoyed in law were like when I'd talk to clients or when I would do conferences within the legal industry or business development people people people. So I was like, okay, I like it. Fortunate enough, I managed to go ton to a four day week. On my non working day, I worked and I got myself qualified as an ICF credit coach. I started working and I got the feedback, the validation to say, this is a runner, this can work, and so yeah, the rest is history. But it wasn't easy by any means. But I often say you need cheerleaders around you at that time because self doubt is going to be all over you. And so I'm so grateful to you because I really feel like you were a pivotal person, just as I was a pivotal person for you when you were younger at that particular time. You reciprocated tenfold because you were there for me and maybe believe it's possible.

Yeah, no, because I saw it, and I think you're so right.

Yeah, no, because I saw it, and I think you're so right.

This is why our friends are so important in being honest with us, in noticing our strengths, being honest about our weaknesses, noticing our values. And I always say to people, if any of you are struggling with what you should do for work, sometimes just go around to your friends and meet them one on one and say, Hey, have a really honest discussion with me. What do you think is my number one skill? What do you think I'm actually good at? And your friend might be like you plan the best parties, like that's what you're good at, or you know what, whenever it's whenever there's a big event, coming up. You're really good at event planning, and all of a sudden, I've done this with my sister, and I've seen that my sister's always organized lots of retreats, she's organized lots of events. She's really talented at that. It isn't her career, and I'm constantly nudging her in that direction and saying, hey, have you thought about wedding planning? Have you thought about birthday planning? Have you thought about event planning?

This is why our friends are so important in being honest with us, in noticing our strengths, being honest about our weaknesses, noticing our values. And I always say to people, if any of you are struggling with what you should do for work, sometimes just go around to your friends and meet them one on one and say, Hey, have a really honest discussion with me. What do you think is my number one skill? What do you think I'm actually good at? And your friend might be like you plan the best parties, like that's what you're good at, or you know what, whenever it's whenever there's a big event, coming up. You're really good at event planning, and all of a sudden, I've done this with my sister, and I've seen that my sister's always organized lots of retreats, she's organized lots of events. She's really talented at that. It isn't her career, and I'm constantly nudging her in that direction and saying, hey, have you thought about wedding planning? Have you thought about birthday planning? Have you thought about event planning?

And so.

And so.

But what I loved about watching you make that transition was that I think a lot of people think, oh, when I get a million followers, then i'll make a transition. Oh when I make X amount of money, then I'll make a transition, And you were actually making it while you were there, and the sign of success was good feedback. And so I think not postponing that transition, that pivot, that switch. And I love what you said because I think this is true for everyone. You have to have one foot in either boat. Yes, at the beginning, so you were gone down to a four day week. One day became coaching, Studying weekends became that going doing the exams, the course, and when you've got one foot in each boat.

But what I loved about watching you make that transition was that I think a lot of people think, oh, when I get a million followers, then i'll make a transition. Oh when I make X amount of money, then I'll make a transition, And you were actually making it while you were there, and the sign of success was good feedback. And so I think not postponing that transition, that pivot, that switch. And I love what you said because I think this is true for everyone. You have to have one foot in either boat. Yes, at the beginning, so you were gone down to a four day week. One day became coaching, Studying weekends became that going doing the exams, the course, and when you've got one foot in each boat.

Once you're confident enough.

Once you're confident enough.

You didn't take the other thing, you take the other leap exactly, rather than what I think a lot of us do is we've got two feet in one boat, the other boat so far away, and you go, oh, no, it's all about the jump. It's all about the leap, and you kind of amp yourself up, then you jump, and then you fall into the water, and now you're drowning because you're like, wait a minute, I don't even know where the other boat is. And so I don't want to glorify risk because I think a lot of people will be like, you have to take a risk, you got to do something big, you got to take a leap. And I'm like, well, well you've got to be a little bit measured and a little bit practiced as well.

You didn't take the other thing, you take the other leap exactly, rather than what I think a lot of us do is we've got two feet in one boat, the other boat so far away, and you go, oh, no, it's all about the jump. It's all about the leap, and you kind of amp yourself up, then you jump, and then you fall into the water, and now you're drowning because you're like, wait a minute, I don't even know where the other boat is. And so I don't want to glorify risk because I think a lot of people will be like, you have to take a risk, you got to do something big, you got to take a leap. And I'm like, well, well you've got to be a little bit measured and a little bit practiced as well.

I meanf you've got a mortgage to pay, it absolutely. But I think this point around understanding the difference between your self awareness and external feedback and getting that balance right, because yeah, we can amp things up in our own head, and we can think we're the greatest speaker and the greatest coach or the greatest podcast host, but actually the validation, of course comes from the outside world, and you know if you're doing a good job, but you're going to find out very quickly. I think you're going to find out quickly. But you're also going to feel really good. For me, Like, even if I was doing a good job in law, I didn't feel good. So that for me, that internal compass was always very clear. This wasn't what I was meant to be doing. And we speak about this all the time in terms of finding purpose, and it's a big pressure, Like people come up all the time saying how do I find my purpose? But it very much is a journey and it's not going to be something that you sit down one day, meditate and have that aha moment, like you've got to go and do things. Yeah, and you've got to be aware of like what have I been doing? So you'd always say to me, actually, none, as long as I've known you, you've always been doing public speaking, right like whether through when I met you, that's what you're doing exactly. So that was my go to So it was an easy thing for me to do. So it's actually knowing that and then having someone to validate that and support you along the way.

I meanf you've got a mortgage to pay, it absolutely. But I think this point around understanding the difference between your self awareness and external feedback and getting that balance right, because yeah, we can amp things up in our own head, and we can think we're the greatest speaker and the greatest coach or the greatest podcast host, but actually the validation, of course comes from the outside world, and you know if you're doing a good job, but you're going to find out very quickly. I think you're going to find out quickly. But you're also going to feel really good. For me, Like, even if I was doing a good job in law, I didn't feel good. So that for me, that internal compass was always very clear. This wasn't what I was meant to be doing. And we speak about this all the time in terms of finding purpose, and it's a big pressure, Like people come up all the time saying how do I find my purpose? But it very much is a journey and it's not going to be something that you sit down one day, meditate and have that aha moment, like you've got to go and do things. Yeah, and you've got to be aware of like what have I been doing? So you'd always say to me, actually, none, as long as I've known you, you've always been doing public speaking, right like whether through when I met you, that's what you're doing exactly. So that was my go to So it was an easy thing for me to do. So it's actually knowing that and then having someone to validate that and support you along the way.

Yeah, I've read something recently which I think is called the Pigmalion effect. I don't know if you've come across it, but it's this idea that we're better at doing things when we think people believe in us. Yes. And so it's when they told teachers that these kids are performing well, and so teachers started to treat them better. Yes, and then the kids performed better even though they weren't any different. And that's a quick version of it. You can check it out. But what was really interesting about it was we can also do that to ourselves. And so it works when we set higher standards for ourselves. Yes, we start treating ourselves in that way, and it goes back to your beast mode point of you rise to your standards. And I think a lot of us don't know what that means, because I think when we set high standards, we usually feel we fail. Yes, we usually feel, oh no, I'm going to feel like I failed, So I might as well just set a lower standard exactly. And one thing I've noticed in high performers that I really appreciate is high standards matched with high grace. And so if you look at the best people in the world. I love this commencement speech that Roger Federig just gave. I'm sure you saw it. And he talks about how in his career he's lost a ridiculous amount of points. I can't remember the exact number, but he's lost a ridiculous amount of points, like almost forty percent of points or forty five percent of points. And you think, wait a minute, how could one of the greatest have lost forty five percent of points? And he says, because all I've got to do when I lose a point is focus on the next one. And he said, if I sit there and I'm constantly thinking about the last point and how I should have responded, and how I should have hit it, and how I should have placed it, now all of a sudden, my attention's gone on the next point, and now I've lost the next point. And that just continues. So I love that idea that greatness came from having a high expectation of winning every point. But then they're having enough grace to say, actually, if I focus on the last point, I'm going to lose the next point as well.

Yeah, I've read something recently which I think is called the Pigmalion effect. I don't know if you've come across it, but it's this idea that we're better at doing things when we think people believe in us. Yes. And so it's when they told teachers that these kids are performing well, and so teachers started to treat them better. Yes, and then the kids performed better even though they weren't any different. And that's a quick version of it. You can check it out. But what was really interesting about it was we can also do that to ourselves. And so it works when we set higher standards for ourselves. Yes, we start treating ourselves in that way, and it goes back to your beast mode point of you rise to your standards. And I think a lot of us don't know what that means, because I think when we set high standards, we usually feel we fail. Yes, we usually feel, oh no, I'm going to feel like I failed, So I might as well just set a lower standard exactly. And one thing I've noticed in high performers that I really appreciate is high standards matched with high grace. And so if you look at the best people in the world. I love this commencement speech that Roger Federig just gave. I'm sure you saw it. And he talks about how in his career he's lost a ridiculous amount of points. I can't remember the exact number, but he's lost a ridiculous amount of points, like almost forty percent of points or forty five percent of points. And you think, wait a minute, how could one of the greatest have lost forty five percent of points? And he says, because all I've got to do when I lose a point is focus on the next one. And he said, if I sit there and I'm constantly thinking about the last point and how I should have responded, and how I should have hit it, and how I should have placed it, now all of a sudden, my attention's gone on the next point, and now I've lost the next point. And that just continues. So I love that idea that greatness came from having a high expectation of winning every point. But then they're having enough grace to say, actually, if I focus on the last point, I'm going to lose the next point as well.

Yeah, And I think it's interesting that you know, you were moved by that commencement speech, because every single commencement speech follows that same pattern. If you've noticed, yes, right it is. It is failure to success, and yet somehow we are surprised that all of these people have failed. And it's the same for me. It's like if people think Jay's failed, I'm like, yeah, he's had like crushing blows along the way, but he kept going. And it's interesting, like law, you know, is a real perfectionist mindset. It comes from a strong academic background, and so that is what you're judged on, and so you're not meant to make mistakes. But as we all know, mistakes are how you make the journey.

Yeah, And I think it's interesting that you know, you were moved by that commencement speech, because every single commencement speech follows that same pattern. If you've noticed, yes, right it is. It is failure to success, and yet somehow we are surprised that all of these people have failed. And it's the same for me. It's like if people think Jay's failed, I'm like, yeah, he's had like crushing blows along the way, but he kept going. And it's interesting, like law, you know, is a real perfectionist mindset. It comes from a strong academic background, and so that is what you're judged on, and so you're not meant to make mistakes. But as we all know, mistakes are how you make the journey.

Yeah, and that's how you learn. It's going to happen along the way. And I think one thing that I remember, which was really important part of our friendship, and I wanted to talk about certain events.

Yeah, and that's how you learn. It's going to happen along the way. And I think one thing that I remember, which was really important part of our friendship, and I wanted to talk about certain events.

It was definitely that.

It was definitely that.

So I started working at Accentia, and I was working at a client that was close by to your law firm. So every lunchtime we'd go on like an hour walk around London and we'd have these conversations nearly every day. While I was at this client.

So I started working at Accentia, and I was working at a client that was close by to your law firm. So every lunchtime we'd go on like an hour walk around London and we'd have these conversations nearly every day. While I was at this client.

By the way, just in case my former employers are listening, I was I wasn't meant to have been gone for an hour, right, I think it was probably meant to be a client.

By the way, just in case my former employers are listening, I was I wasn't meant to have been gone for an hour, right, I think it was probably meant to be a client.

I think this is true for me.

I think this is true for me.

But we've gone this hour walk and these are the conversations we'd have, and it shows you how important that friendship is, how important that connection is. Yes, and I think we were both looking for an escape. But the thing is we weren't just then making our time together entertainment. Our time together became these conversations.

But we've gone this hour walk and these are the conversations we'd have, and it shows you how important that friendship is, how important that connection is. Yes, and I think we were both looking for an escape. But the thing is we weren't just then making our time together entertainment. Our time together became these conversations.

You had done your you know, you were thinking about doing your coaching diploma, or you'd just done it at that particular point, and I just remember this idea of you need to invest in yourself in order to move forward. So at the time you were really getting too psychometrics, it was disc was the one that you would be rolling out constantly, and then it was MBTI and more recently, as you know, I just got qualified in a particular one. And what I loved about that was it showed me that validation is very important to me. So even from a personality perspective, that is important to me. So how do I process that information. I should be aware that I'm going to be looking for that validation, but also know that potentially it could trip me up because if I don't get that validation, what do I do? Do I stop? So? I think, you know, really investing in yourself is so critical, and we were taught it obviously from a spiritual perspective from a young age as we were coming through the monastery and so on. But even in normal business life, the moment you stop learning and growing, I think, is the moment you start to feel like you're losing momentum in life and lose that joy.

You had done your you know, you were thinking about doing your coaching diploma, or you'd just done it at that particular point, and I just remember this idea of you need to invest in yourself in order to move forward. So at the time you were really getting too psychometrics, it was disc was the one that you would be rolling out constantly, and then it was MBTI and more recently, as you know, I just got qualified in a particular one. And what I loved about that was it showed me that validation is very important to me. So even from a personality perspective, that is important to me. So how do I process that information. I should be aware that I'm going to be looking for that validation, but also know that potentially it could trip me up because if I don't get that validation, what do I do? Do I stop? So? I think, you know, really investing in yourself is so critical, and we were taught it obviously from a spiritual perspective from a young age as we were coming through the monastery and so on. But even in normal business life, the moment you stop learning and growing, I think, is the moment you start to feel like you're losing momentum in life and lose that joy.

I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all ut lovers out there. And even if you don't love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling sodas that are good for you, listen to this RADI and I poured our hearts into creating Juny Sparkling Tea with adaptogens for you because we believe in nurturing your body and with every sip you'll experience calmness of mind, a refreshing vitality, and a burst of brightness to your day. Juni is infused with adaptogens that are amazing natural substances that act like superheroes for your body to help you adapt to stress and find balance in your busy life. Our super five blend of these powerful ingredients include green tea, ushwaganda, Acirolla, cherry, and Lion's Made mushroom and these may help boost your metabolism, give you a natural kick of caffeine, combat stress, pack your body with antioxidants, and stimulate brain function even better. Juni has zero sugar and only five calories per can. We believe in nurturing and energizing your body while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink. So visit drink Juni dot com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code on Purpose to receive fifteen percent off your first order. That's drink j Uni dot com and make sure you use the code on Purpose. Well, what's really interesting is that when you go to school, right, you start nursery at whatever three four years old, and then you're basically at school to eighteen. And if you go to university or college, then you're there till twenty one or maybe a bit older if you do law or medicine or whatever it may be, or a postcrad. And what's really interesting is that from the moment you're three or four years old, Every year up until twenty one is pretty much mapped out. Yes, so you don't actually have to think when you complete fourth grade what comes next? You go to fifth grade, and then you go sixth grade, and then you go to seventh and then eighth and then ninth and tenth.

I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all ut lovers out there. And even if you don't love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling sodas that are good for you, listen to this RADI and I poured our hearts into creating Juny Sparkling Tea with adaptogens for you because we believe in nurturing your body and with every sip you'll experience calmness of mind, a refreshing vitality, and a burst of brightness to your day. Juni is infused with adaptogens that are amazing natural substances that act like superheroes for your body to help you adapt to stress and find balance in your busy life. Our super five blend of these powerful ingredients include green tea, ushwaganda, Acirolla, cherry, and Lion's Made mushroom and these may help boost your metabolism, give you a natural kick of caffeine, combat stress, pack your body with antioxidants, and stimulate brain function even better. Juni has zero sugar and only five calories per can. We believe in nurturing and energizing your body while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink. So visit drink Juni dot com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code on Purpose to receive fifteen percent off your first order. That's drink j Uni dot com and make sure you use the code on Purpose. Well, what's really interesting is that when you go to school, right, you start nursery at whatever three four years old, and then you're basically at school to eighteen. And if you go to university or college, then you're there till twenty one or maybe a bit older if you do law or medicine or whatever it may be, or a postcrad. And what's really interesting is that from the moment you're three or four years old, Every year up until twenty one is pretty much mapped out. Yes, so you don't actually have to think when you complete fourth grade what comes next? You go to fifth grade, and then you go sixth grade, and then you go to seventh and then eighth and then ninth and tenth.

And you never had to think. There's no ownership, ownershment. There's no ownership.

And you never had to think. There's no ownership, ownershment. There's no ownership.

And what ends up happening is as soon as you get to twenty one and you let's say you get a job, you can grad job, you start a job. Now, all of a sudden, your whole trajectory is up to you. Do you stay at this place? Do you network for a promotion? Do you take on extra curricula? Do you quit your job and get promoted somewhere else?

And what ends up happening is as soon as you get to twenty one and you let's say you get a job, you can grad job, you start a job. Now, all of a sudden, your whole trajectory is up to you. Do you stay at this place? Do you network for a promotion? Do you take on extra curricula? Do you quit your job and get promoted somewhere else?

Do you switch?

Do you switch?

Do you all of a sudden at twenty one years old, it's like, well, now we're not going to tell you what to do for the next fifty years. And so I think everyone is at a disadvantage, yes, because you haven't had to use your brain for all of those years. All of a sudden, you have to use your brain, and now you're scared, so you're asking everyone around you.

Do you all of a sudden at twenty one years old, it's like, well, now we're not going to tell you what to do for the next fifty years. And so I think everyone is at a disadvantage, yes, because you haven't had to use your brain for all of those years. All of a sudden, you have to use your brain, and now you're scared, so you're asking everyone around you.

What should I do?

What should I do?

Is this the right path for me? Should I quit my job? Should I get married? Should I not? Should I write? And that confusion. I have a lot of empathy because of that, because we weren't made to make decisions early enough.

Is this the right path for me? Should I quit my job? Should I get married? Should I not? Should I write? And that confusion. I have a lot of empathy because of that, because we weren't made to make decisions early enough.

Now.

Now.

I'm not saying that a four year old should be deciding what they're studying at university. That's not the point. But there has to start becoming a little bit of ownership about direction and about choice, because that's how you build confidence in yourself. So most of us have never made a made your life decision until twenty five thirty years old. No wonder we're crippled by the anxiety and the stress and the pressure that comes with that because you didn't have to think about anything that was that complicated for like eighteen years.

I'm not saying that a four year old should be deciding what they're studying at university. That's not the point. But there has to start becoming a little bit of ownership about direction and about choice, because that's how you build confidence in yourself. So most of us have never made a made your life decision until twenty five thirty years old. No wonder we're crippled by the anxiety and the stress and the pressure that comes with that because you didn't have to think about anything that was that complicated for like eighteen years.

It actually links really well to the discussion we're having last night around so as I mentioned, I've got two kids, and you know, the question is how do you raise kids in this world? Oh? Yeah, it was a really fascinating discussion. This idea of pushing them to take responsibility, you know, not remaining under the shelter of your parents, because although it's going to be uncomfortable for them. That's the only way they're going to learn. That's the way you're going to get the life skills to be an independent thinker, to be someone who's really going to go out and be able to make those difficult decisions. Also, self awareness, Yes, you can get through a psychometric but the real self awareness is going to come through challenges. Yeah, and putting yourself in situations is like, am I going to sink or swim? So I remember you saying this to me when I was talking about my own son, is like, No, there's got to be a certain degree of challenge. He needs to know that if he falls, you're there to catch him, but you're not there like holding him. Yes, because otherwise he's not going to learn to stand.

It actually links really well to the discussion we're having last night around so as I mentioned, I've got two kids, and you know, the question is how do you raise kids in this world? Oh? Yeah, it was a really fascinating discussion. This idea of pushing them to take responsibility, you know, not remaining under the shelter of your parents, because although it's going to be uncomfortable for them. That's the only way they're going to learn. That's the way you're going to get the life skills to be an independent thinker, to be someone who's really going to go out and be able to make those difficult decisions. Also, self awareness, Yes, you can get through a psychometric but the real self awareness is going to come through challenges. Yeah, and putting yourself in situations is like, am I going to sink or swim? So I remember you saying this to me when I was talking about my own son, is like, No, there's got to be a certain degree of challenge. He needs to know that if he falls, you're there to catch him, but you're not there like holding him. Yes, because otherwise he's not going to learn to stand.

Yeah, it's knowing that. I think all of us need to know that we're loved whether we win or we lose. Yes, that's what all of us want. All of us want to know that I am loved or all of us want to know that you are loved whether you win or you lose. And so your child, yourself, your partner, what they want from you is that you love them no matter what. But they need to be able to win or to lose of their own choices, of their own accord.

Yeah, it's knowing that. I think all of us need to know that we're loved whether we win or we lose. Yes, that's what all of us want. All of us want to know that I am loved or all of us want to know that you are loved whether you win or you lose. And so your child, yourself, your partner, what they want from you is that you love them no matter what. But they need to be able to win or to lose of their own choices, of their own accord.

And I remember one meeting that we had.

And I remember one meeting that we had.

I remember when you actually flew out with me to New York when I first moved there, and you slept on my couch. Yes, And I remember, well, maybe i'll explain, Maybe you can tell him what you had for breakfast, because.

I remember when you actually flew out with me to New York when I first moved there, and you slept on my couch. Yes, And I remember, well, maybe i'll explain, Maybe you can tell him what you had for breakfast, because.

I think it was a banana from Whole Foods. So Jay's cooking skills are awful. My cooking skills are one one tier below that. So we were just having conversation.

I think it was a banana from Whole Foods. So Jay's cooking skills are awful. My cooking skills are one one tier below that. So we were just having conversation.

Now I think we're on the same level.

Now I think we're on the same level.

Okay, Yeah, I mean I could pick out the banana, But no, I was coming out to New York and I was expecting, like, you know, the Huppton post thing had just happened. It was actually it was a beautiful apartment, like it was you know, it was a one bed, it was, it was it was nice, like five hundred feet. Yeah, it was cozy, I think, I think is the right way to define it. But yeah, I was there. I was there, sleeping on your couch. And it's beautiful to think where you've come from that particular point. But go on, you were going to say there was something particularly about that meeting.

Okay, Yeah, I mean I could pick out the banana, But no, I was coming out to New York and I was expecting, like, you know, the Huppton post thing had just happened. It was actually it was a beautiful apartment, like it was you know, it was a one bed, it was, it was it was nice, like five hundred feet. Yeah, it was cozy, I think, I think is the right way to define it. But yeah, I was there. I was there, sleeping on your couch. And it's beautiful to think where you've come from that particular point. But go on, you were going to say there was something particularly about that meeting.

No, I was just going to say that it was one thing that you realize as you live life is that life becomes the stories. Yes, And I remember a few years before that, I was at a friend's wedding in Ibitha, Yeah, and I was sitting having dinner on the beach at my friend's wedding, and I was sitting with this man who has around seventy years old, and he was sitting there almost like in a movie scene of He was in one of those beach rocking chairs. There was a little fire pit that we were around with me and my wife, some of our Janevie, and someone else from the wedding, and we were sitting with this man and he just had these crazy life stories. And I remember sitting there and just thinking, I really hope that when i'm his age that I'll have stories to tell, and not stories to tell to the world, even just stories to tell to my friends. And I think what happens in our busy, distracted life, the events in our life become events where everyone's there. Whereas we have a lot we talk about this a lot that as I have got older, group events are great, but it's the one on one investments over the years that give you stories and memories.

No, I was just going to say that it was one thing that you realize as you live life is that life becomes the stories. Yes, And I remember a few years before that, I was at a friend's wedding in Ibitha, Yeah, and I was sitting having dinner on the beach at my friend's wedding, and I was sitting with this man who has around seventy years old, and he was sitting there almost like in a movie scene of He was in one of those beach rocking chairs. There was a little fire pit that we were around with me and my wife, some of our Janevie, and someone else from the wedding, and we were sitting with this man and he just had these crazy life stories. And I remember sitting there and just thinking, I really hope that when i'm his age that I'll have stories to tell, and not stories to tell to the world, even just stories to tell to my friends. And I think what happens in our busy, distracted life, the events in our life become events where everyone's there. Whereas we have a lot we talk about this a lot that as I have got older, group events are great, but it's the one on one investments over the years that give you stories and memories.

Who remembers the.

Who remembers the.

Big birthday party that one hundred people were at or fifty I don't ever think about those things. I don't talk about those things. But I can remember when you were sleeping on the couch and we were waking up and we were walking to the you know, the grocery store picking up groceries coming back like I can remember that, or I can remember the walk we used to go on. And I think it's so important that as we get older, I think sometimes we think I want that big birthday party again, I want that feeling of being a kid again. And it's almost like those one to one relationships are so powerful. And I think one of the things I really value about our friendship is I think it's become harder for men to find these relationships in our community and outside. It doesn't matter whether you're in a spiritual community or not. It's just harder for men to find connection. And I think for us, one thing that really helped was you were always really vulnerable and honest and open about your life when we first got to know each other, and as you were my mentor It was very new for me because mentors and teachers are generally people who you think have it all together and you're learning because they have it all together. And not only do I disagree with that, you helped burst that bubble very early on because you'd be really open about your challenges or whatever you were going through. And I try and do that with my community today. I'm really open and honest about well. I always talk about how like me and my wife don't have a perfect marriage. There's loads of stuff when we'll talk about it, or you know, I haven't had a career where everything's been easy, but I find that as men it's harder. How have you found that over time, and like, how have you navigated that and what are your thoughts on male friendship and how you strengthen that bond because I think a lot of men are feeling lonely right now in the world.

Big birthday party that one hundred people were at or fifty I don't ever think about those things. I don't talk about those things. But I can remember when you were sleeping on the couch and we were waking up and we were walking to the you know, the grocery store picking up groceries coming back like I can remember that, or I can remember the walk we used to go on. And I think it's so important that as we get older, I think sometimes we think I want that big birthday party again, I want that feeling of being a kid again. And it's almost like those one to one relationships are so powerful. And I think one of the things I really value about our friendship is I think it's become harder for men to find these relationships in our community and outside. It doesn't matter whether you're in a spiritual community or not. It's just harder for men to find connection. And I think for us, one thing that really helped was you were always really vulnerable and honest and open about your life when we first got to know each other, and as you were my mentor It was very new for me because mentors and teachers are generally people who you think have it all together and you're learning because they have it all together. And not only do I disagree with that, you helped burst that bubble very early on because you'd be really open about your challenges or whatever you were going through. And I try and do that with my community today. I'm really open and honest about well. I always talk about how like me and my wife don't have a perfect marriage. There's loads of stuff when we'll talk about it, or you know, I haven't had a career where everything's been easy, but I find that as men it's harder. How have you found that over time, and like, how have you navigated that and what are your thoughts on male friendship and how you strengthen that bond because I think a lot of men are feeling lonely right now in the world.

Yeah, so, you know, the definition of kind of the modern man is like a hotly contested debate and just this idea of vulnerability. For me, I think I was naturally wired like that, Like I like honesty and transparency, and you know, if you're sincerely asking, I don't see why I wouldn't be open. Actually, I think I've learned the opposite. I think I was probably too open in this world. And so something that I've learned over time is you can't place one hundred percent faith and trust in someone when you meet them for the first time. You know, it's a process that you have to build over time.

Yeah, so, you know, the definition of kind of the modern man is like a hotly contested debate and just this idea of vulnerability. For me, I think I was naturally wired like that, Like I like honesty and transparency, and you know, if you're sincerely asking, I don't see why I wouldn't be open. Actually, I think I've learned the opposite. I think I was probably too open in this world. And so something that I've learned over time is you can't place one hundred percent faith and trust in someone when you meet them for the first time. You know, it's a process that you have to build over time.

That's a hard lesson as well.

That's a hard lesson as well.

It is a hard lesson because and it's a painful lesson. But we spoke about this in the past as well, like, you know, would you want it the other way? Would you want to be so closed and then gradually gradually open up. I feel like, yes, there's a risk to the way that I am. People may judge me for being open about things, but actually I think it's it's the way forward because it's what feels natural for me. And obviously as I've got older, it's about understanding the right people, the right time, the right place, and ultimately, am I being vulnerable to serve that person? Because one thing I've learned with coaching is sometimes people are vulnerable really just to unload, right, And it shouldn't be about that. It should be very much about I'm trying to serve that person. If I can be relatable and show them I'm not on a pedal staal. I've gone through similar challenges. But this isn't about me, it's about you. I think that can be really helpful and you don't need to be a coach for that. I'm talking about basic because you talked about friendships. I think that's where friendship comes from.

It is a hard lesson because and it's a painful lesson. But we spoke about this in the past as well, like, you know, would you want it the other way? Would you want to be so closed and then gradually gradually open up. I feel like, yes, there's a risk to the way that I am. People may judge me for being open about things, but actually I think it's it's the way forward because it's what feels natural for me. And obviously as I've got older, it's about understanding the right people, the right time, the right place, and ultimately, am I being vulnerable to serve that person? Because one thing I've learned with coaching is sometimes people are vulnerable really just to unload, right, And it shouldn't be about that. It should be very much about I'm trying to serve that person. If I can be relatable and show them I'm not on a pedal staal. I've gone through similar challenges. But this isn't about me, it's about you. I think that can be really helpful and you don't need to be a coach for that. I'm talking about basic because you talked about friendships. I think that's where friendship comes from.

And I think that's also how you don't become harsh in a world that may feel harsh, like I would rather turn up fully as I am consciously and then however someone responds to that, Now I'm clear on where we're at, yes, Whereas if I come all cagy and holding back, now, I don't know whether that person's mirroring my energy or they might be hiding something. And so if I come out and I'm just fully myself and I'm loving and I'm trusting and I'm open, then I get a quicker sense of where someone's at and whether our energy matches, not whether they're a good or bad person, just on whether our frequency matches. Whereas if I lower my frequency, thinking I'm protecting myself now, actually I'm working against myself because I can't quickly figure out and I think That's what I look at, is what's the pace of figuring it out, like when you can speed that up because you're fully yourself. Now you have a great sense of Okay, trust this person. I can see where my barriers are with this individual. And I think setting boundaries has become such a healthy thing for adult friendships as well.

And I think that's also how you don't become harsh in a world that may feel harsh, like I would rather turn up fully as I am consciously and then however someone responds to that, Now I'm clear on where we're at, yes, Whereas if I come all cagy and holding back, now, I don't know whether that person's mirroring my energy or they might be hiding something. And so if I come out and I'm just fully myself and I'm loving and I'm trusting and I'm open, then I get a quicker sense of where someone's at and whether our energy matches, not whether they're a good or bad person, just on whether our frequency matches. Whereas if I lower my frequency, thinking I'm protecting myself now, actually I'm working against myself because I can't quickly figure out and I think That's what I look at, is what's the pace of figuring it out, like when you can speed that up because you're fully yourself. Now you have a great sense of Okay, trust this person. I can see where my barriers are with this individual. And I think setting boundaries has become such a healthy thing for adult friendships as well.

I think we talk about this a lot.

I think we talk about this a lot.

When you grow up in a big community, everyone thinks they know you, and everyone claims to know you, and everyone claims to be your friend, and it's really hard, and you know, sometimes people can turn oh I went to college with that person, or I went to school with that person too. Oh no, no, I knew that person really intimately. And so I think it's really important that we set healthy boundaries. I think what's helped me with my male friendships. And I have a lot of young male friends who guys that I mentored like you were mentoring me at the time. And I think for me, it's always been these one on ones. I think it's really easy as a bunch of guys to hang out, watch your game, whatever it may be. But when you can have these one on ones where there's space for both of you to truly put the guard down, and it's almost like taking your armor off. Like the thing is, men, you've got to recognize that there is a desire to be strong and be this warrior. But at the end of the day, you've got to take your helmet off, you've got to put the shield down, you've got to put the sword down, you've got to take the armor off. And that's when you can see each other's wounds and be open about it and talk about it. And I think I consider myself to be a warrior mindset, as you were talking about earlier. But a big part of that warrior mindset is also having that safe space where you don't have to have the shield and the guard up all day long and you can finally put it down.