On this episode, Kay-B is joined by Superfan & TV studies professor, Brandy (@Brandybeephd) to chat about GREY'S ANATOMY season 3 episode 21 "Desire." We discuss George & Izzie's torrid affair, Cristina's lack of wedding motivation, Meredith's mental health, Addison's inability to be forthcoming, and Alex's good guy image! Later, Kay-B chats with Dr. Milhouse (@drmilhouse) aka #YourFavoriteUrologist, a Board Certified Urologist, about this profession choosing her, her first experience with GREY's, the realistic & unrealistic parts of this case & info on this instance of Candirú or fish in a man's urethra, and so much more!
On-Call with Kay-B is an iHeart production with lead editing by Randie Chapman of Wordie Productions (@wordieproductions on IG). Please follow Executive Producer & Host, Kay-B, on Instagram & Twitter @TheLadyKayB.
For more information about Candirú highlighted in this episode, read these articles: https://academic.oup.com/jtm/article/20/2/119/1881714 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8008855/ https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1016/j.juro.2015.02.481
Welcome everyone to a brand new episode of On Call with KP. I am your host k B and today I am thrilled to be giving you all of the show tea about episode twenty one from season three of Gray's Anatomy called Desire with a super fan and TV Studies professor Brandy. Welcome, Brandy. Hi, k be excited to be here and thanks for having me on to discuss all things Grays. Oh my gosh. Yes, So we are chatting today about the episode of Gray's Anatomy that features Larry, who is a board member. Um, he is kind of brash, um, kind of rude. He wants Richard to stay on as chief. But he's also having an affair with his assistant. And that's important to know because this episode is filled with affairs and people having lots of opinions on affairs. Um. So his wife, Larry's wife actually knows. Um. But it's a mess because Larry goes to the Amazon for two weeks, he goes on vacation, he takes his girlfriend, and he ends up with a fish and his urithrea. So, um, Meredith likes to call it karma. I'm like girl, Now we're gonna get into it. But girl, not you, you know, hooking up with Derek when he has a whole wife and now you talk about karma, like what is the truth? Um? But then we also have Ava um Eva gives birth and her and Alex's friendship is above board right now, Um, it's PC right now. You know, Addison is a little scared because of what transpired with Denny Duquette and Izzy. Um, but for now he's all right, and you know she's really trying to convince him and encourage him and tell him that he's a really good guy. UM. And Marcus still not having sex per Addison's request, but Addison is really stringing him along. You know, she doesn't really see a future with him. She wants kids, she wants kind of a quieter life, and she doesn't think Mark is that guy. And this seems really unfear to him to make him kind of buy into this no sex proposition. But also while she's sleeping with who she wants to sleep with, and also when she knows that she just doesn't want to be with him long term, like girl, cut the cord. Um. Meredith is kind of annoying this episode because she's like mocking Derek with her over communication when Derek is like genuinely concerned about her well being. And I'm like, Meredith, if you're not gonna communicate in the way that you should, girl, go focus on work in these exams because also you're kind of failing at being a doctor right now. That's also what I've noticed in season three is Meredith is not doing that well. Um. And we have Burke and Christina. Oh my gosh, Um, Burke is not reading between the lines because we did don't want to get married, Hony. She does not care about being a wife. She cares about being a surgeon and that is her top priority and he is just not getting it. Uh. And last, but not least, Izzy and George I said, we're gonna talk about affairs. We are going to dive into it. Um. This is just a reminder that for me in this series, they definitely did a lot of romantic liberties with the romantic relationships on this show, and this was one of them, because boy, did I hate the easy and George Perry. I mean, like, I get the natural progression of best friends to lovers trope, but this was not for me. Um. And who Callie knows that something is happening, but she doesn't quite know, but Addison is also kind of giving her a hint. Even though Addison cannot confirm or deny, she can only go based on her own experiences as someone who has cheated on their spouse. And so you know, I'm like, what is the truth? So you know what, let's get into it. So my first question to you, Brandy is you know when did you first fall in love with Ray's anatomy? Oh gosh, um, So Gray's premiered during my college years, and I remember gathering with friends in the common area of our dorm and watching episodes weekly, and I've always been drawn to the melodrama of it all as a primetime soap, right. Um, all of the relationships of some Mayor dre Selexi are my ultimate ship, uh, in terms of their romance. I shed my fair share of tears on this show. You know. I think it's actually why I continue to watch, because it's really cathartic, even when my favorite characters are dying and they all die, but most of them to die. Um. I also continue to endure the show honestly because it is the longest running medical drama of the twenty first century, right, you know, before Grace there was R right and then Mash. But really they don't make them like this anymore. And I actually just recently wrote about the COVID nineteen very special season, which I thought was really well done in its approach to the pandemic and apply to healthcare workers. And also you know, you don't get that season without having eighteen plus seasons before it, right, uh in terms of sort of what transpires, uh, and the kind of bringing of characters back, and again the catharsist of it all. Um. So that's why I keep hanging on against all odds. It's like the show that literally won't die. It's like the show that never ends. Yet I think that you're right though, like the COVID nineteen season would not have worked without kind of the build up of the prior seasons before um and kind of having certain staples and a certain reputation, I guess is the best way to put it. As to your point, the longest standing medical drama you know of the twenty one century, um So, you know, every single episode has a lot of relationship drama, but I felt like this one in particular maybe had more. Um So I'm gonna start with Izzy and O'Malley because I find that they are at the center of this week. And that's mostly because, you know, one thing that I have said over and over again is that I adore the way Grace does parallels between their their medical case and their patients and also their doctors. And so the theme, um, you know, the parallel of this week is a fair like that. That's just what it is. And so it seems like everyone has one or has had one, or has an opinion on it. And you know, we have Leary from the board, as I mentioned, um in his affair and you know, kind of getting that fishonist penis um really in his urethra in the Amazon, and we see how how George is kind of forced to interact with his assistant, with Larry, his assistant and his wife, and that is kind of bringing up what's happening between him and Izzy and Callie, and so you know, um, he and Izzy kind of had this this toward moment, uh and this affair. And Callie, you know, is feeling a lot of things right now, so she doesn't know for sure that they're having an affair, but she knows that Izzy and George are too close. And it's interesting because this sexual relationship that transpired between the two of them has made them even closer than before. So much show that by the time we get to the end of the episode, our boy George is kind of down that leg I'll just go to another hospital to or what like what relax? So, um, you know? And what are also what are you gonna tell your wife when you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna transfer, yeah, and you feel like your life is just going to go back to normal, empy what it is? She's going to be wildly suspicious when you come to her and you're like, oh, I need to get change hospitals in the middle of my internship. What no? So um you know. It's interesting because Izzy is not She's not capable really of separating her feelings from a scenario, like it's just not it's just not who she is. So this affair is literally eating her alive, um, you know. And this is why she's stuffing her face with all these cakes and she kind of spits it out to Burke because she has to tell someone. So what do you think about Izzy and O'Malley and this affair? Because I will be honest, this was like I was like, y'all are down bad. This relationship is not for me at all. So much mess Amy s s Um. I've always struggled with the Izzy George affair. Um. This is no respect to tr Night, but I, in general, UM find a lack of desire for him. I mean I just find George incredibly a sexual um in a in a totally fine way, right, Um. And so with Izzy and George, I just have no patience for that affair. UM. You know, I think that Izzy has established yourself as being, you know, someone who is highly codependent. Um. And so you know it's just for me, not not a good look for her. Um. Callie is absolutely justified in wanting Izzy to fall back, uh and create a boundary with her husband. But again, it's also just the struggle for me to even sort of see George as this optical affection for like so many women. I mean, he's very nice and sweet and it's it's great, but I see no kind of sex appeal with him. This episode is called desire, right, Like I I see no desire on the part of George. Um. But again, you know, Izzy and George obviously have a connection and you know, it's it's unfortunate that Callie sort of has to you know, be explicit with Izzy about um, you know, saying that she can't compete with her. Um. I think that's a really hard place for a wife to be in, right to sort of you know, especially when your husband is very close with another woman, right, UM, you don't want those feelings of jealousy. But obviously right after it's you know, become sexual. Uh. You know, Callie is still trying to fight for this relationship, uh, which you know I have questions about. But at the same time, is he has to recognize that there are boundaries, right, and and that you know, maybe she needs to think about how she can you know, relate to George differently um in this in this moment where he is with someone else. You know. Someone say that Izzy is used to crossing boundaries and not having repercussions for boundaries, and so I think it's because of that that's why this is so challenging for her. But let's talk about Mark. Because Mark Mark Mark Mark moved from New York to Seattle, which like, really, you left all the money in New York plastics to come to Seattle. Plastics, which like, truly obviously this is a TV show for a reason. But Mark left really to follow Addison, right like he believes that she's the love of his life a little does he know he's gonna meet Lexi. That's gonna change. I actually did really like Mark and Lexi, so that is one of the couples that I do enjoy on this show. But he's following Addison, and Addison essentially is just trying to change him. Thank girl. The first rule is don't try to change your partner. You know who Mark is when you met him like that, that's the truth. You also know how incredibly sexual he is. He's just a sexual being. He enjoys sex, and you are trying to like cut that out and make him into a house husband in my mind, and I'm like, girl, just let him be who he is. So why do you think that kind of Addison won't just be transparent with Mark and be like, listen, I don't see a future with you. This isn't it. And why does Mark have to be the one to tell her what he thinks she wants to hear in the end by basically saying, oh, I had sex with someone else, which Keith lying, but I had sex with someone else to give her kind of an out versus just kind of them having an adult conversation and getting to the root of it, which is Mark, you are about to be rejected by Addison because she doesn't find that you have a parental bone in your body at this juncture in your life, and that's why she doesn't want to be with you. Like why can't they just have that adult conversation, like what are they afraid of? I mean, I think with with Mark, it's a bit of a turning point for him and the sense that you know, I think that Mark, he's he's sort of understood since you know that episode as like mixed team and there's really nothing else to him. And obviously because I'm biased, right, like when Lexie comes you, you know, we opened up this whole new kind of like mark uh personality, right that we hadn't necessarily seen before. And so I actually appreciated him being straight with her um about kind of what was happening and what she really wanted or or or or didn't want. And so you know, I saw a little bit of growth for him in this episode that I hadn't seen before and I think for for Addison and Alex, I mean it goes back to the kind of you know, her performing maturity, right has She's never seen with the type to be with an intern um, and so I think that that is, uh, that's kind of in her head. Um. And she's you know, been sort of floundering, right like, post Derek. And I think that she will find her footing, you know, when she leaves and goes to private practice. Um. But certainly, you know, she's in this kind of mush moment, and I don't think she actually knows what she ultimately wants in this kind of post break up uh face you know what, That's the perfect point. And that's exactly what I was just about to say. She doesn't know what she wants. And here's the thing. Addison hasn't been single for a long time, right, And when you mess up and you have this affair. She worked so hard to try to get Derek to forgive her, She worked so hard to try to pick up the pieces and and kind of you know, put her marriage back together. That didn't work. Then here's Mark in the corner professing his love to her. And I think a part of her feels obligated to give Mark a shot because she blew up her marriage. Like she feels like this has to have been more than just a carnal physical affair. It had to have meant more. It has to be more. I have to succeed at this because that one thing didn't work out. And then she sees Alex, and Alex's yeah, Alex is like a fun time, but he's also a good guy. He also has emotions. He's not really showing them right now, right, but he does. And so she's like just bouncing from person to person I think, really trying to find out what it is that she wants, and she's having a hard time. So to your point, you're right, which private practice a fantastic spinoff Lips so good. She eventually comes into the woman that she wants to be. And now even coming back to Grace, she she's having her kind of full circle moment, but it took her a long time to get there, and it takes her a while to just kind of sit with her failure. I don't know any other way to say it, but it's kind of like a girl, just own your failure. That's okay. You don't have to jump to another relationship. You could just kind of take the time to figure out who you are now, who it is that you want to be, and kind of own that. Um. But stop destroying these men in the process. I'm like, is right now you're sending Mark down a rabbit hole of issues, um, and you're creating new issues and Alex that weren't there before. So like, relax, absolutely, um. But something that I did enjoy about this episode and that I you enjoy um about this season, it's kind of the progression of Addison and Callie's friendship. But it is funny about Addison giving kind of advice like she wasn't in an affair just last year. It's like, girl, yeah, okay, girl, so what do you think about her giving advice to Callie about cheating? And it is funny because I loved when they were talking about Mark. It's just the irony of it because you never know where life is going to take you. Because Kelly is giving her advice on Mark, and you know, Callie and Mark end up having a baby, and so it's just like, oh, not you giving her advice And that's definitely not the trajectory that life will go down, especially on Gray's right, right, right, Yeah, so what do you what do you think about their their friendship and her giving her advice about cheating. Yeah, I like their friendship. I mean, I just like it when the interns talk with the interns and have their relationships, and the attendees and the residents right like have their own kind of click. Um, because they're a little bit older, right, and you know, they're able to engage on a different kind of level. Uh. And so I really like Addison and Callie's friendship. Um. I like that they're able to chat with each other. Although maybe Addison, as you said, should not be giving Callie advice about cheating. Uh. You know, that's the pot calling the kettle black. But whatever that's saying is But yeah, it's really funny that, you know, in the kind of permutational relationships that this show has offered over the course of the decades, right that then you know, uh, Mark will will sort of have a child with Callie. Um. So yeah, it's you know, it's a breath of fresh air to see different characters talking to each other. Uh. And and so I enjoyed their conversation. Yeah, because it's glaring who doesn't have any friends um and one of them is Burke. It's glaring, glaring that he doesn't have friends at this hospital. It's glaring every single season to me, So we have broken Christina. Burke is not reading the right the writing on the wall. He can't get Rosina to commit to anything about the wedding. But in this particular episode, it's about the cake, and instead of Burke having friends to go to, he just takes the cake to the hospital, lets a bunch of people try it, and gets their opinions over. You know, Christina is essentially because she doesn't care. Now here's the thing. She actually doesn't care because she doesn't want to be married and she definitely wants to be a surgeon over a wife. Like that's very clear. But also I will say she is an intern, which Burke knows. She is legitimately busy. She has her exams coming up, so asked her to choose a wedding cake when she needs to be studying for the exams. That are I believe they said in two weeks. It's also kind of problematic, like also, so you kind of set yourself up for failure, Like it's a lot of things happening on on both sides. But also I do find that Burke should not have to pull teeth with his partner and things like this. So should Burke Christina now and save himself. Now we know that does not actually happen, but I want to know, you know, if this where he should have saved himself and ran. You know, I've always liked Burke. I'm a bit of a birk apologist, variety of reasons. But in this moment, you know, he's looking for anything, however miniscule, that will indicate that Christina is all in on the relationship as much as he is. Right. So, you know, the little cute moment with the red velvet cake at the end, right where she kind of off handedly says right, like that's my favorite, and he's like yes, like you know we are meant to be right. Um, he's looking for any affirmation from her, um about the future of their relationship. And that's not a great place to be, um, if you're thinking about your your life partner. UM. So I think that those little moments are what he him in that relationship. Even as Christina is you know, highly empowered, highly driven in terms of her professional career. Um, he clearly enjoys that about her as well, and I don't know, there are like moments in that relationship where they're very fun that I think he wants to hold onto but you're right, he doesn't have anyone to talk to. Um, we'll probably get to this, but I mean, I think there's a there's a moment where, you know, he talks to Derek and it's funny there Darren explationship with Burke, not only in terms of their career, but also in terms of them dealing with these I don't know if they coined the term twist twisted sisters yet, but like, I think that that is an interesting kind of connection that he has, right, So they're always he and Derek are always like commiserating about like how they both fall in love with these women who like can't be tamed, right, and they're kind of you know, in these dark places, these dark and twisty places. So again I think it he likes that about her, but also wants to see her softer side. He wants to kind of mold her into being the kind of wife that he imagines that she can be, but she obviously doesn't necessarily want to be. So yeah, I found the cake part him itching to sort of give her a reason to sort of stay in in this with him, however minuscule and yeah, yeah, they're definitely not on one of core and Burke Lesbie really now, you know, darn well, she didn't pick that cake. You know about this and she literally just said Wren and was like, okay, I mean, I don't know. I see in that moment, I think that she like tried it and was like yeah, and he like took that as oh my gosh, like we're perfect. But but it clearly wasn't that for her, Like it was very I don't think that she cares um, but for him it was like, you know, yes, I I am recommitted to to this at all. She excuse me, she doesn't care at all. And I think honestly she just picked the first thing that came to her mind because he was on studying and she's not even thinking about it. But I will say it is interesting how Derek and Burke eventually begin to bond. But I even kind of find that that is only because to your point, the twist and sisters, the women that they're dating, but otherwise doesn't have any of friends in this hospital that he can just go to to talk about his own life. And it's interesting because when you think about it, a lot of men on these shows don't have people that they can just go talk to, you know, Um, Derek has Mark, and they eventually kind of get back to that space of being friends. It's not ever like it was, you know what I mean, Like I mean, there's just a level of betrayal that I think, you know, it's like okay, like we'll be friends, but we will never be as close as we once were. But it's hard because even George and Alex I wouldn't really consider friends, do you know what I mean? Like, it's true, they have different personalities. Yeah, the men just are not friends with each other. They're friends with the women on the show. And think about Webber. Webber kind of sits, you know, off to the side by himself. It's just hard. And even when we get into like the introduction of Jackson Avery, like who are Avery friends? Right there? It's really like the men here are not friends with each other. You know, it's true, And I but I think that that's like part of the like you know, feminist element of the show right where you can show women's relationships and their sociality but not but not men. With Burke, it's even a bit more complex because he's a strange by way of race. But season three is still when they're you know, this is my TV studies had on now, they're still in this kind of post racial utopia, so they can't really talk about right like Webber and Burke can't really discuss things right Miranda, Um, you know along those lines, and so yeah, he's really a man on his own kind of island. Yeah, and it's so wild to see, um, and even the progression now as you brought it up, kind of this post racial society like now being able to when George Floyd happened and kind of breaking open the doors of of what could be discussed on television and that kind of shifting how Gray's kind of talked about race in a lot of ways. Things have expanded so much. So, um, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic to see. But let's talk about Alex because Alex has, in my opinion, the most dynamic character growth on this show. I would say, yes, he has the best there there is literally and and one of the best on TV and my personal opinion, but there's no growth like Alex is up until the end where you know, all that essentially went down the drain and he left his wife are Izzy and the kids that he knew nothing about. That was a journey. But I appreciate seeing season three Alex because he is so oblivious to the things that are to come right and he's running. He's running from who he actually is, which, to Ava's point, is a good guy. So when you watch this episode, did you see him in Ava becoming a thing you know? Um later on? Um? Or did you kind of only see this as a platonic friendship? You know, I always my Spidy since has always went up with Ava. I mean, she's fine, but I mean, as we realized, I mean, Coreb is such a romantic at heart. Um. He likes to take care of people. And we learned much later why this is right due to his home life. Right. Um, he has a tough exterior, but he's really sensitive. I don't know. There's the moment in this episode when she's she's in surgery and he asks her to keep breathing and caresses her forehand. That was also a woman where Addison kind of looked like slightly weirdly jealous. Um, but I think that you know, he likes to be he is a caretaker. Um. And this it runs throughout all of his serious relationships, whether that be with Izzy or or anyone else. And so you know, I I love that character growth for him. Um. You know, it only makes it weirder when at the end of his sort of character journey, right, he sort of does his kind of bizarre one eighty or or what have you. So, yeah, I mean I definitely saw sparks between Ava and Alex during this episode. Um. It's hard to distinguish between those kinds of romantic sparks and again the kind of caretaking sparks. Uh. And certainly I think Ava blends the two and it doesn't end well. But but certainly, you know, in that moment, I was like, oh, this, this might be something special. You know. It's interesting because Alex has a couple of issues. He has his care taker spear because he's the oldest child. His mother, you know, had a lot of medical issues and he was used to take care of taking care of her and taking care of his younger siblings because he had to. So this is why, really at the heart of it, he went into medicine, right, because he's good at it and he knows it and this is what he wants to do. But it's hard for Alex because I think to in this kind of caretaker responsibilities, it's also a form of control because he lacked the ability to be able to control his situation of how he grew up, in all of the things that happened to him, and he wants to be able to control the situation, which is also why it takes a really long time for him to be vulnerable and allow other people to care for him. And so Ava the entire time, even in this episode, is actually trying to convince him to kind of let go of control a little bit, and you know, she's sharing secrets with him, and he just like he actually can't do it. So it's interesting to even see in their dynamic as the show progress is how he kind of like lays that down now he gets burned by Eva. I was just saying, well, you know, he has a type, right, and I think it's because I think it's because of this kind of like impulse towards caretaking that he then like you know, falls in love with these women who you know, for better or for worse, end up it ends up backfiring on him, um in in ways that are out of his control, right. Uh. And then he sort of you know, becomes really injured. H and so, which makes his final kind of you know move all the more perplexing, but you know, wildly perplexing. Please please all right. So the big mystery case here is Larry has his enlarge testicles. He has urinated in three days, which is also wild. Um. And you know, we come to find out that a fish swim up his uithreat. So how did you feel about this realistic case? You know, you did say that the medical cases are intriguing and it is part of the reason why you stick around. So how did you feel about this case in particular? Did it hook you the most or was there another case in this episode that entreat you more? Yeah? I mean I had totally forgotten about this case, and so rewatching, I was like, oh I remember, I mean I remembered Larry right as this kind of you know, recurring character sometimes, and so this one was interesting too. I mean I wish I actually would have seen more of it. I think they were focused on, as you were saying earlier, the kind of parallels between the the affairs, right, and the kind of interpersonal drama. Um. So we saw a lot of Larry's affair, uh and you know, slightly less of the of the kind of medical situation. But it was really I mean, yeah, my draw was on the floor when they first introduced that. And obviously they had this kind of funny, you know, hokey music. Uh. And so it was a really interesting case. And you know, I, like I said, I liked the moment where they had to sort of deliver Ava's baby um as well during this you know, kind of surprise complication with her conditions. So so yeah, the fish definitely now will be like seared into my my memory. I mean, Larry is honestly like just such a brash and like harsh human being that I mean to marry to this point, She's like, Larry deserved it. Now I'm not gonna say he deserved it, but I will say I'm not surprised it was Larry who had a fish in this penis I guess that's say, yes, um, for sure. Yeah, I think that was really interesting. I think the high stakes of Ava and seeing how Ava's surprise delivery impacted Alex and what that does for the trajectory of his career impedes. I think it's also very interesting to see because he just keeps getting deeper and deeper and when he thinks it's not gonna happen, or when he thinks he's not going to when he thinks he's going to temporarily be impedes. I guess that's the best way to putting like this is just a stop on my journey, but really, honey, you in it for the long haul, which she doesn't even see. I think even this case is kind of one of those turning points for him to where you're like, how this is it? Like this is your life, this is your specialty, this is what you're doing, and this is who you're going to be. So let's let's lean in. So okay, last question, who's your favorite character this episode? And why? Who? Yeah? I mean actually Yang, she's not in it, you know, as much as as she's been. But I just liked how driven she was, Like she was like I am studying and I need to get this material. Like when what was she trying to get from Calie the notebooks for something? Right? Like she trying to get her study cards or card study cards? Yes, and I just love that for her, right, I love that she, you know, had her eyes on the ball, not not Larry Festaicles, but she had her eyes on you know, the prize and to do well, you know, on her Sam. So I was very much into Yang being Yang. And also I will say, I mean correct, right, like I think that he Um, we just love him being a sensitive king, you know what. So, yeah, my my favorite characters episode hands out with Alex um and I think it's because Alex in this point, in this juncture on this show is the only person who is honest to other people with other people. The only person he's not honest with right now is himself, which Alex, come on, we gotta do the self work and be honest that we're a good guy. But he's honest with other people, which I appreciate. Um. And you know what, Alex just softens, like you can see the layers kind of unfold with him episode after episode, particularly in season three, you just see how the walls come down and how he's allowing space for change and growth. And I don't know, you know, he will forever be my favorite character growth on the series. I don't care when the series ends. I don't care how many new people they get, it will always be Alex for me because his journey is just so robust. Again, let's pretend like the end didn't count, but it was up until that point. And even when he meets Joe and they have they're essentially kindred spirits when it comes to the level of trauma that they've had as you know, growing up as kids, as young adults, um, and so they share that, but it's something about the level of intimacy that it creates between the two of them that is unlike anything Alex has had before, you know, um and not even Izzy. And also I appreciated him because honestly in this episode he's at least annoying. Meredith was on my annoying, right, Christina was on my nerves. I was like, and George, George and Izzy were on my nerves. I'm like, listen, y'all, and as it was all my nerves too. So really it also comes down to come down annoying. And I also think, you know, going back to Alex's you know, trajectory and his growth, I mean, this is the seeds of him becoming a pediatric surgeon, right like he you know, he loves babies. He wants to deliver babies. So yeah, I love it, love it, love it. Well, you know, just thank you so much for joining the show. This was really fun. I always love talking with fans of Grays about Grays because it's just I mean, being able to kind of relive these moments is very very interesting for me. And being able to just kind of dive in a little bit deeper and now knowing also, I think it's just so different, like now knowing what happens with these characters, to see where they started and rewatch it and be like if you only knew what's coming down your way, like yes, you only absolutely so yes. Thank you so much for joining on call with Kabe. Had a lovely time. Thank you for having me on today's segment. I have board certified gurologists who is very very active on social media and loves to educate people at prewere, but primarily does this work in the Chicago area. I have Dr Millhouse. Welcome, Dr Millhouse. Thank you, k B. I'm excited to be on this show. And as she stated, I am Dr Fenmo Millhouse, I'm board certified, and I'm Fellowship trained and I love love, love what I do as eurologist. A lot of people don't know about eurology, and that's okay. So we're here to like talk a bit about what that means, what we do, and about this interesting case that was featured like or dramatized, I should say, on Grey's Anatomy. Yes, yes, So first, please tell the listeners a little bit about your life, Dr Millhouse, and how did you get into eurology? You know, yeah, so I definitely think the profession chose me. I uh was born in Nigeria, so I'm an immigrant. My family is an immigrant family and raised predominantly in Texas, and Um, from you know, early age new I wanted to help people, wanted to be in health air and ultimately that met medical school for me. UM. So, when I got to medical school, one of my early medical school friends that I met UM said he was going to become a urologist. And I didn't actually know what the heck that was. I kind of was like, okay, cool, I was like, I don't know for sure. I think maybe germ or guiney. And and then I you know, played it off like I knew what he was saying. In reference to eurology, and I went back home and looked it up. And when I looked it up, I thought, oh, this is like a male gynecologist. You know, they deal with men's private areas, and it's kind of mostly men that go into this field for men by men, and I crossed that off my list. You know, I was like, Nope, not something I think I would have any desire to be to do. And I don't even think there's a place for a woman, especially a black woman like me, in this field. So that all changed when I was given a lecture by a urologist and in walks a black woman. And so here I was, um seeing this specialist that I could see myself in and in the specialty that I would have like picked the last thing I picked or assumed for her to be. Just looking at her as a doctor, Um, you don't think that when you see the eurologists, it's going to be a woman, and certainly a woman of color. And so I was fascinated and totally intrigued and amazed, and I wanted to learn more about this field that she chose, and in doing that, I discovered a field that I just had my name written all over it. That I really liked. I felt at home. Um, there's a certain personality that comes with urologist is obviously being very general, but you know, by and large, eurologists tend to be you know, humorous. We tend to not take ourselves so seriously. We tend to be very jovial and you know, enjoy talking to people. We have to talk to people about a lot of sensitive things and so we uh, it lends ourselves to that. And so I enjoyed the company of neurologists that I was shadowing, and I you know, I would not have become your favorite neurologist, which is what I like to talk call myself online. Um, had it not been for that encounter. You know, it's so interesting because it sounds like there was a lot of peace around the decision, which is how you knew, you know, kind of this was the right fit for you, Like you know, you're engaged with this woman of color who just made such a large impact. But it also was just seems like it was just an easy fit, which is how you know you're like kind of walking in your purpose. And so I love that. I love that. And it's funny too because on Grey's Anatomy. They have a black women neurologist, Dr Fox. Dr Katherine Fox, drained by Debbie Allen. And so, um, it's interesting because you're right, I don't know very many women neurologists, let alone black women urologists. Um. And she definitely, for sure was probably the first one that I've seen depicted on television. Um, kind of in that regard. And so it is just, uh, you know, it's interesting to to see that you are definitely definitely flourishing. So I have to ask, because I always ask all of my guests. UM, and I've had guests come on here never having watched a single episode until they until right before the show. So what is your relationship with Gray's Anatomy? You know, like, were you a fan from the beginning? Did you just pick it up for this show? You know? Um? And and when was the first episode that you watched? And how did that make you feel? So? I like it was the first time I watched the whole episode from start to finish, was right before this show. So three, this desire episode of a season three episodes when one is the only fool lead. Uh, the Gray's Anatomy episode that I have watched personally, I don't really like watching medical shows as a as a physician. I just it's I'm like the opposite of the spectrum. I'm like, that's the last thing I want to see like entertaining me on TV. I want to see something else that has nothing to do with like people working in a hospital or following physicians or whatever. Um, even if it's in like a dramatic way as it is presented. Uh, and Gray's Anatomy. So this is the first time. That's so funny. But you know, you're not the first person to tell me that. I mean, some people are like, please give me a legal drama, or like, please give me reality TV, Like, please give me something else that's me reality TV if it's reality TV. Yes, But you know, Gray's Anatomies is so successful and so popular that I knew about like some of the references I knew. I totally knew about the black woman urologists on Gray's Anatomy, which I thought was so cool. That that's that's one thing about the show is like it delivers a diverse representation what it means to be surgeons, and I absolutely freaking love that. You know, Um, so I knew about and I certainly know about Mick dreaming and you know, Meredith all the mix, all of the mix come through Seattle Grace. But this makes it interesting for me. So just generally, how did you feel about the episode overall? And maybe not from a scientific or medical perspective, you know, taking off that lens, but as a first time viewer, you know, I think it's a little too much going on. I liked the show, I think it's a little bit too much happening, Like there's too many relationships stuff happening. It was really hard for me as the first time viewer. It was hard to follow. And maybe because I'm plopping in at the middle of season three, right, yeah, man, episode of season three. Yeah, so like I was like, okay, who's with who? And you know you I kind of started to understand, oh, they're they're married, but they cheated, okay, and then she wants him, but she's with him, okay. But then they're like there's a lot of people dating each other in this hospital. Like it much. That was my initial impression, like there's just a lot of people dating one another. Um, But overall, I think it's it's well done. I think we'll get into like how realistic some of the scientific stuff. I think in the spectrum of like medical dramas that it's you know, not again not wearing my urology lens, because I saw a lot of things that I'm like, this doesn't make any sense, but it's reasonably like realistic to medicine. Okay, reasonably for somebody who's you know, just looking on the surface, it's reasonably realistic to medicine. And um, you know, you get to see some of that, like training, what it means to be training to become a surgeon. So that's kind of interesting for to have that on a show for the public. Yeah, it's true. You know, it's very weird that we see kind of the interns perspective, you know, that we see the residents perspective. Yes, I mean truly, it's her show. And when she starts, that's where she starts, and then she rises through the ranks to become an attending um and then she like owns the hospital and and now she's not even there anymore. I mean, like truly, so like beings escalated, she's done groundbreaking medicine, but you get to see it from her perspective from start to finish, which is something that doesn't really happen, you know, kind of very often on these television depictions of these shows. So U in this case specifically, like I mentioned, Larry board member in the Amazon for two weeks with his girlfriend while his wife is back home. UM, and he asked for discretion from Richard Webber, not because of the affair obviously, but because of the nature of his case. So he only wants to talk to Richard because one he wants him to stay on board, but too he really trusts him with his medical care. He thinks Richard is the best physician for the job in the hospital. UM. Naturally word gets out right. Every other attending wants to take Richard's job as chief, and so they're mostly concerned like who is this you know, kind of v I P top secret pay ship here because they're worried about their careers less about patient care. UM. And Larry's just like, I really only want to talk to Richard mostly because he's who I would trust with my life. And this is very sensitive. So like you mentioned before, you know, having working in neurology, you have to have very tough and interesting conversations with patients all the time, you know, he has a swollen penis or swollen testicles, he has a swollen nether region um, and he is very very much kind of concerned with what's happening down there, and he doesn't want a lot of people don't know. So can you talk a little bit about instances like this when people have your logical issues where they really don't know where to start kind of what some of the emotional impacts are for those patients and how you navigate that in your career. So going back to your question like sensitive, like the the emotional impact of your logic issues. I mean, obviously this is you know, the private part area that other regions, you know, bodily personal bodily functions occur. Repee for men, they ejaculate, you know, for for both women and men. Like it's it's intimate with our genitalia and our orogenous zones, and so anything that happens in this region is going to be more you know, sensitive nature. If you will, then let's say my arm or my eye or you know, my elbow or something, you know what I'm saying, my toe, um, you know, talking about it will be a little more understandably embarrassing and as eurologists, you already know like patients rarely come full on direct and say my penis is blase blase or you know, my yourred throat or this, and that. They kind of kind of tippy toe around it because they're nervous and ashamed, maybe quite embarrassed about what's happening to their body. A lot of times they have no control over what has happened to their body. Sometimes they feel like maybe they did something to cause this, and there are too embarrassed to say what they did. And certainly sometimes it involves us asking about their sexual life and practices, which is deeply personal and so it is quite emotional when things go wrong, especially in this area, what the impact it has. So it's really important to be sensitive to this, to not as the physician, as the care person, to not make that person feel more shame, more guilt, more nervous than they already are. Part of my job is to be able to create an environment where patients nerves and calm down, that where they feel safe, creating a safe, no non judgmental environment. I kind of like to say, this is a no judgment zone. Please. There's hardly anything that I can imagine you're gonna say that is gonna make me make me feel like, oh, you know, I feel uncomfortable. You know, Um, if you're just talking about what's happening to your body, Um, there's not. So that's really important. And a part of with this episode, which that kind of we didn't see, is that happening between Richard and Larry or with Larry and everybody else who was involved in his care And that's part and partial because this is a TV show, and part of the humor that comes with the show is this whole thing that's happened to him in the first place, which is kind of like, you know, humorous, you know when you think about it. But then, um, you know, just the fact that everybody wants to see what's happening to to you know, what's happening down there. In real life, we would have approached him with a lot more tact and sensitivity. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think they definitely leaved in this episode to the physical comedic portions because great as a drama, but like they definitely have a lot of comedy, especially in the early years. Um, season three is kind of one of those years. But for sure there would have been much more care and honestly, Richard wouldn't have allowed any of them to burst in the room, you know, like that would have never happened to begin with. If this is his patient, this his patient. Correct, And meanwhile all of them just kind of staring, and then Addison saying, well, I definitely cannot help you with this issue because you are not a woman and this is not my expertise. There would have been no reason at all for Addison to even have wanted to be involved at all with this, Like she wouldn't even first of all, Addison, and that her specialty wouldn't even be involved in this part of like nowhere near it at all, which is why she was like, oh, I need to leave. I mean, naturally they didn't know who the VP patient was, but once they got out, you know, it was kind of like, all right, we need we need to go somewhere else because this is not for us. So interestingly enough, I am really intrigued that they picked this to be kind of the focal case, because there's always in Gray's anatomy, there are always parallels between you know, the medical case at hand and the central character in their relationships, and so in this instance, the parallels with the storyline are between Larry and and his you know affear with his assistant and Izzy and George, right because you know they're on the case and um, both are kind of navigating how to manage their affairs. And Larry's kind of enlarged penis or testicles as they found out, because at first we truly don't know. The camera obviously does not show that, but yeah, when we have, they don't really say, they don't come out completely. I think it's most likely it's his testicles that are so scrolled on that swollen. Because they talk about the testicular ultrasound and they talk about some other things that make me think that's the that's where they're headed. So right, So, because they don't like outwardly say it, we don't see it, but we know something is there. Larry is supposed to represent kind of the honestly, the physical representation of cheating, Like that sounds wild, but in this episode that's what it is. He's kind of he goes on this journey to the Amazon and because he's having an affair, you know, like I think Meredith even says in this episode like this is almost like his penance, which you know is wild because also Meredith had an affair with Derek and everyone's like, girl, what are you talking about? But sure, um and yes, yes, and and to be fair, everyone has affairs with everyone on this show, like it is not truly happening NonStop. So it's also like really no one can talk about this, and like no one. But it's interesting because you know, I found a few cases, you know, just kind of highlighting the kangaroo. But it's interesting because for the most part, this fish is almost like an urban legend in the Amazon, like they know that the fish exists, but in terms of its interactions with the human bodies, there are a lot of quote unquote reports around it. And so the only case I was able to find was twenty five years ago in and this case was reported by a man in Brazil of having a candaroo in his urethra. So the patient reported urethro bleeding, um, difficulty passing urine fever for three days, you know, kind of after suffering this attack. And so this the the only thing that was really kind of confirmed scientifically was a systoscope that showed the fish launched in the anterior urethra, and even uh, that that fish had to be removed indoscopically. So even that is still twenty five years you know, um, prior to now, which is wild that there have been no more reported cases. Um. And the simple fact that I believe it was the early like eighteen thirties almost when you know, we first kind of started hearing about this, where the urban legends and the myths around the candaroo started to come to fruition. So you know, they were saying that candora are known to attack various body parts um to get the blood. And you know, I was reading a report that said that, you know, someone reported that you know, they've seen kandaroo and women's vaginas, and that they've also seen um, you know, candaroo in rectums and anal rectums. So uh, and most recently that the candaroo have been shown kind of biting humans on their backs in order to get that blood supply. So my question to you is, you know, apart from the case which literally is the only one that has some physical evidence around actually having been occurring, why is this so intriguing to people? I mean, why would this be. It's it's a fish. Fish are living their life, They're doing what they're doing Why would this kind of urban legend in mid scenario exists from the eighteen hundreds up until now for this fish, Like, I just think it's wild that, you know, it's been twenty five years since the only case was reported, So I think again, like the idea that there's this animal, there's this you know, biological thing that has an affinities for human attacks or or human body a part in this case, assuming the urethra is fascinating to us. It's fascinating whether you're a scientist, a physician, or just a you know, lay person. You know, it's coming out of the Amazon and that's a fascinating area. There's species we probably have not have not discovered there. So I think it lends itself to like, oh this, you know, this could be it. A lot of the UM reports are second third hand reports, and we know how that goes to get, you know, sensationalizing. The credibility is really really if he like, did this really go in the wrecked um? Is it? You know? Um? I think even with the well, it seems like there's actual evidence. There's a physician who has systems, has it on video systoscopically removing it. The report is from the patient that it occurred, is that the fish literally jumped out of water and like jumped in his urethra. And that just doesn't seem plausible, you know, very child and we you know, the part of the urban legend is like, oh they have an affinity too for urine, and that has not been proven. I personally think it's much more plausible that people are sticking things in them that on purpose. We I mean, we see that to this day. That is a known thing. I mean, you talk to any urologist or general surgeon. Yeah, have you heard of a patient sticking something foreign in their urethrow or the rectum or their vagina. Oh yeah, we all know we've heard of a case or have had the case ourselves. So personally me, I think, what is happening. This fish is trying to mind their own business, all right, and they don't really care to attack us, But we provoked them, or we go after these in these cases like they've gone after them in a way that has led to maybe you know, this candaroo fish landing in this guy's your w or these attacks on the back. That's kind of where I'm at. I think that there's just too much too many scientific details that don't add up that this thing has a particular affinity for a male urethra just because it's there. Now wait wait wait wait wait, we have to back up. You've had patience that sticks something in their urethra. If there's a hole, people will put something in it. Oh my gosh, I just kids put stuff in their nose. Um. Yes, people stick all sorts of things that will try to stick all sorts of things in their rrethra. Marty grab beads. I've seen. I've heard of like the charging chords. I've heard of like the ends of a toothbrush or the end of a fork. Um. I've heard of pen pencils and pens and insert pen inserts. Um oh yes, And I mean in the anus. It's even more like a free for all, um of what people will stick in their anus. So I hopefully that would make more sense to me. But the ure throw like, oh my goodness, there's a hole in the body, people will try to stick something in it. Wow. Wow. Yeah, Because when you were saying, you know, it's much more plausible that you know these individuals are sticking something up there and the fishes that's not supposed to go and the fishes kind of I don't want to say along for the ride, but for a lack of a better fresh So they're here on this journey for a lack of a race. Yea, that's what I was about to say. I was about to say, you know, they're kind of here against their will, and uh, look at what's happening now, Oh my goodness, I cannot imagine. Well that ships everything. I mean, like, now you have to be thinking about this. This gentleman in seven who who knows what he was doing in the Amazon, you know before before that occurred. Now, my mind's going to all different types of places for sure. Correct. I'm just again as a urologist who've been on the end of trying to you know, get things out of people, like you know, it's just it's something about human behavior, curiosity. There's potential for like deriving some sexual pleasure, you know, a boredom, whatever. There's something about the human behavior and experimenting for whatever reason or or thing that they're trying to get out of it that they stick things in holes in their body. Wow. Okay, well you touched on this briefly, but let's get into it. Did you find this episode to be a realistic depiction of this condition. And I know that you said there are moments you were like, this doesn't make sense. What are we talking about? Like, what is that? What is happening in this ueroogy case that we're seeing? So as a viewer and as a doctor, as a physician, what would you have wanted to see more of that may have elevated this particular case. Okay, So one is he has this fish stuck in his your rethrow, and let's forget about whether that's plausible or not. Let's assume it is. First thing is he's like, I haven't paid for three days. Okay, you're not going to be laying there, haven't paid for three days and saying this calmly. In fact, if you haven't paid for three days, you're probably going to be an horrendous amount of pain, if not completely sick. Um, you just cannot your bladder, just cannot hold your ine for three days and not release it without a lot of you know, pain and other bad things happening. He just would not seem as well appearing and talking and you know, arguing with his doctors in that scenario. Um number two, they would immediately put a catheter in him and drain his bladder. They didn't attempt to do that. They didn't know anything about a fish or whatever, and so there was that. We should have seen them attempting to try to put a catheter in him and then maybe been like, wow, it's not going maybe something's blocking him. Let's get an x ray and see what's going on. It was weird. He comes with he can't pee and then he has this in large scrolled um or penis, which are seemed like two different things happening. Even if there's something large in a man's uriitra and he can't pee, you wouldn't expect to see swelling in the scroll um or the penis because of that, you know what I'm saying. So something there's like something else going on, you know, that's not being explained by this fish and his urrethra. And then they like just randomly get these tests. Oh let's get an x ray, Oh let's get an oftras, and let's get this. You know, some of the the X ray at that time didn't make any sense. Now turns out they get this. They choose the X ray because then you can see this fish that's in on the X ray, you know, and so uh then they go in and they are trying to get this fish out through the urethra, and you see them in the operating room again with the camera. Unrealistic part is you've got all these different specialties, right, all these different surgical specialty is in this very much urology case. Like, there is no reason for a cardiothoracic surgeon to be in this case. There's no reason for and I guess Dr Larry he's like the chief of the whole surgery department. Like, so Dr Webber, that's Richard, Yeah, he's the chief of Yeah, but you also have Derek there because the neurosurgeon, which you're like, why is he here? Why is he there? Why is he there? All the chief of the whole surgeon department. He's not a urologist. He shouldn't even be in the case. Even though the patient, the happy patient might have been like I only trust you, but he would have been like, Okay, well, yeah, you can only trust me, but this is a urology case. Let me get my neurologist that I trust. You know what I'm saying like that, you know the people who are doing the procedure. I don't think any one of them are neurologist. I don't even know if the guy that was helping dr is neurologist. So no, there's no neurologist actually doing this, and that's completely like not a thing to be in this. And so then they try to get it through the ure throat. They can't, and so then they make an incision in his belly. So the urethra and the bladder are different approaches. If the thing is stuck in his urithra and you can't get it through the cystoscope or through the camera in his in his urithro, then you would cut in the perineum, which is the part of the body that is between on a man, it's underneath the scrotum and the anus that taint area. You wouldn't be cutting in the man's belly. You would be having his legs up wayne way high in the air like he's in childbirth position or methotomy, and you would be cutting right under his his scrotum. And that's how you would get to the urethra if that's where the fish is stuck. But the fish suddenly becomes stuck in the eure thro but then they go into the bladder and they pull it out through the urethro through the bladder, which is like not possible. If that would be not really possible unless the majority of the fish was partially hanging into the bladder and partially in the urethra. I don't know. There's just a lot of different maneuvers going on. Some of the instruments that they showed like how it was and this has been very particular, so I don't as a urologist, right, I think only eurologist would catch this, But some of the instruments that they were using, I was like, that's not even like the right instrument there, um. So, But yeah, the the the thing I would have liked them to have done more is like more of like getting us to there's something stuck in as your rethrow, um besides just oh let's get a random X right. Oh there it is. You know what I'm saying. That would have been more and less of everybody in the operating that doesn't you're like many people in here who are not eurologists. What do your thoractic surgeon being in the world was like absolutely did not make any sense. And then he's he's doing like the job of the anesthesiologist almost and I'm just like, what are you doing? This is not, this is not But you know, they finally got there. But you're right, they took a lot of twists and turns that would not happen if you know, this man presented into you know, an e er now absolutely not as soon as he said, I have impeded one day, right, okay, get a catheter in him, stat superstat you know. Um. So I was thinking he is quite rude. Maybe it's because he hasn't irrinated and you know, like he he was so upset and he was very rude. So I was thinking, maybe it's because he just is in so much pain from the fact that he has not urinated in three days that he cannot control himself. But he did have you know, enough energy in there to yell at Richard, that is for sure. Yeah, if you haven't feed in three days, you don't have that energy, you know. So for you, Dr Melhouse, tell me kind of what is the future of urology. What do you want to see in the future, and how do you see yourself contributing in that way? We eurology is at you know, is a great field in surgery. It's one of the fields and surgery that really tends to be at the forefront of like surgical advancement UM innovation. So we'll continue to do that, We'll continue to see new newer ways to approach surgery and neurology, you know, being a part of the forefront of that UM. You know, the thing about eurology is it's still one of the least diverse fields in medicine. It is still largely male predominated. It is racially homogeneous UM and lacks diversity. And so you know, for instance, there's two percent black eurologists. There's probably less than one percent black women eurologists. Women in neurology make about eight to nine percent. We are seeing some changes very slowly as we look at trainees, so the residents getting into eurologists, there are definitely a better percentage of of women being represented. We still have a ways to go with representation as far as underrepresented minorities, and we are working towards that. We are that's for the you know, doctor facing side of things. On the patient face inside of things. There are health care disparities within our field, chiefly the prostate cancer health care disparity that has a proportional burden on African American or Black patients. We are with COVID, I think um highlighting how great our health care disparities are everywhere. We are putting renewed strength and energy into closing that gap, and so that's exciting for the future. And I think also what's exciting is that, you know, the public is getting more acquainted with eurology. Urology used to be this specialty that again, like you really barely knew. You thought it was just for old men. And I like to say all the time, is urologies for everyone? If you make urine urologies for everyone. And I think people the patients are seeing that, oh, like, it's not just for men, it's not just for old it's not you know, I'm there, you know, your logic issues are being talked about in a way that is humanizing and de stigmatizing. So yeah, I think that's important because there are so many sigmas around a lot of different issues that we have with our bodies, which has always been wild to me, just because if you're a human being, you have a body. If you have a body, it's capable of doing almost anything. So like we need to just kind of dismantle all of these stigmas because anything is possible in this remarkable vessel. And you know, I always say it is the most kind of unique thing I've ever seen, the human body, but it is also the most fragile and like things can go left very quickly, and you know, we just we all need help. I mean, they're always there. There's always something in the human body that we need help for, regardless of who you are. That is for sure correct. And we don't oftentimes have direct control, you know, and so the whole shaming some buddy, you know, or whatever, feeling guilt you know, over what happens to our body, our bodies. Obviously there are lifestyle things that we can improve upon and that sort of stuff, but largely things happen, you know, things happen so and they're doing a lot of work. You know, we gotta give these bodies some grace because it is not easy to maintain day in and day out. For sure, it's remarkable that well, to be fair, yes, so you know we have to do it. Well. Thank you so much for joining the show. I had a great time. I love getting first timers because the perspectives are so great and I love that you work it all down like this is not we would not do this, you know, like this is about patient, So I appreciate that. But before we get out of here, is there anything else that you'd like to share about your work and or your social media platform with the listeners. Yeah? First of all, thank you, Kabe. I've enjoyed myself. It's fun talking about this. I enjoyed watching the episode. And there's other urology episodes on this raising anatomy, I know. So if you ever need a neurologist to comment, I'm your I'm your girl. Um. This was fun. And as far as my work my platform, I am very visible on social media. I am on Instagram at Dr Millhouse with one L M I L h O U s E. Literally, if you just search your favorite eurologists on Instagram, on TikTok or on YouTube, you'll find my channels and my platform. I like to make eurology accessible and learning about it for everyone. I do use humor, but I am a big proponent of like destigmatizing things, and I am starting my own practice. That is the biggest news in my life right now. I'm in Chicago, and so I'm excited to open up a practice that is serving patients in a way that I have a full control over and I cannot wait to share that with the world. Oh I love that. Well, congratulations, I love that you are you going to be able to service you know, the patient population that you want to uh and help them the most. So congratulations and all of this success. And yes, of course you're welcome back on en Call with Kab at any time because this was so fun. So thank you so much. Thank you. Have a good one. Well that's it for this episode of On Call with Kab. Join us each and every Thursday for brand new episodes where I chat with an expert and a super fan about the science behind the scenes. Until then, listen to On Call with KB on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.