That's one of the reasons why people, Yeah, watch Dateline because, like so much in the world, doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But yeah, you know, Fridays at nine, that scoundrel gets what's coming to them most of the time.

That's one of the reasons why people, Yeah, watch Dateline because, like so much in the world, doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But yeah, you know, Fridays at nine, that scoundrel gets what's coming to them most of the time.

This is off the cup. I'm se Cup. And as a journalist and someone who covers quote unquote the news, we're usually curious about everything. It's a quality that I find a lot of us have in common. We just want to know stuff. And so the true crime category of news has always been interesting to most journalists I know, even if they don't report on crime. And it was definitely true of me. I was a true crime fanatic. And later I'll get into why I'm less of a true crime fanatic these days, but solving crimes was always interesting to me. And one of the earliest memories I have of watching non cartoons was when I was about seven or eight and my parents let me stay up late to watch Murder She wrote every week, and it terrified me, but I also loved it, and I imagined being a writer one day, living in a small town like habit Cove when I was older, and solving all the crimes which seemed to happen way too often for such a small town, but that was obviously fiction. But I also loved unsolved mysteries and cops and America's Most Wanted. Then in nineteen ninety two, Dateline comes along with Stone Phillips and Jane Polly, and I was into the news at a very young age as well.

This is off the cup. I'm se Cup. And as a journalist and someone who covers quote unquote the news, we're usually curious about everything. It's a quality that I find a lot of us have in common. We just want to know stuff. And so the true crime category of news has always been interesting to most journalists I know, even if they don't report on crime. And it was definitely true of me. I was a true crime fanatic. And later I'll get into why I'm less of a true crime fanatic these days, but solving crimes was always interesting to me. And one of the earliest memories I have of watching non cartoons was when I was about seven or eight and my parents let me stay up late to watch Murder She wrote every week, and it terrified me, but I also loved it, and I imagined being a writer one day, living in a small town like habit Cove when I was older, and solving all the crimes which seemed to happen way too often for such a small town, but that was obviously fiction. But I also loved unsolved mysteries and cops and America's Most Wanted. Then in nineteen ninety two, Dateline comes along with Stone Phillips and Jane Polly, and I was into the news at a very young age as well.

But I was hooked on the show.

But I was hooked on the show.

And it was a news magazine show that covered all kinds of stories.

And it was a news magazine show that covered all kinds of stories.

I loved it.

I loved it.

And then of course there was this huge true crime boom and now you know Dateline sort of synonymous with like murders. One of the hosts, I'll tell you my favorite Dateline host is Josh Mankowitz and his hips don't lie. If you follow him on social media as I do, I am thrilled to have him on off the Cup.

And then of course there was this huge true crime boom and now you know Dateline sort of synonymous with like murders. One of the hosts, I'll tell you my favorite Dateline host is Josh Mankowitz and his hips don't lie. If you follow him on social media as I do, I am thrilled to have him on off the Cup.

Welcome Josh, thank you great to be here. And yeah, my hips, you're right. Why don't they lie? Though? That's the question? Well, look, I.

Welcome Josh, thank you great to be here. And yeah, my hips, you're right. Why don't they lie? Though? That's the question? Well, look, I.

Mean this is journalism. I mean, you know, you know, I mean that's the thing about you know, you can't lie when you're a reporter. So that's an easy claim to make, you know, true Detective magazine, you can chart that as the beginning of sort of journalism about true crime. I mean, obviously there's earlier examples Sherlock Holmes and things like that, but I mean there's a true detective magazine in the United States talking about horrible crimes and the dogged policeman who solved them.

Mean this is journalism. I mean, you know, you know, I mean that's the thing about you know, you can't lie when you're a reporter. So that's an easy claim to make, you know, true Detective magazine, you can chart that as the beginning of sort of journalism about true crime. I mean, obviously there's earlier examples Sherlock Holmes and things like that, but I mean there's a true detective magazine in the United States talking about horrible crimes and the dogged policeman who solved them.

Right. Yeah, that was first published in nineteen twenty four. Wow, So that would be one hundred years of people reading about true crime journalism. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, that was first published in nineteen twenty four. Wow, So that would be one hundred years of people reading about true crime journalism. Yeah.

So you know, people will to say me, oh, how long you think it's going to last. I'm thinking, like, yeah, a while, because it's been going on for a long time. I mean, this has always been a topic that people read about and were interested in, whether it was that, whether it was in cold blood right right, I mean, I mean all those wonderful true crime books of the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, or the sort of current craze of true crime on TV, podcasts, streaming, any other way you want to get your content.

So you know, people will to say me, oh, how long you think it's going to last. I'm thinking, like, yeah, a while, because it's been going on for a long time. I mean, this has always been a topic that people read about and were interested in, whether it was that, whether it was in cold blood right right, I mean, I mean all those wonderful true crime books of the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, or the sort of current craze of true crime on TV, podcasts, streaming, any other way you want to get your content.

And this is correct me. If I'm wrong, Dayline's thirty second year on NBC, I.

And this is correct me. If I'm wrong, Dayline's thirty second year on NBC, I.

Think yes, I think that's right.

Think yes, I think that's right.

It depends a little bit about how you count the seasons, because I think we started in the middle of the season. I think they started in January instead of in September. But yeah, I think this is thirty two years for Dayline. I've only been here thirty I mean February thirty years.

It depends a little bit about how you count the seasons, because I think we started in the middle of the season. I think they started in January instead of in September. But yeah, I think this is thirty two years for Dayline. I've only been here thirty I mean February thirty years.

Yeah, so only and we're going to get into that. But a lot of people are watching them in syndication. But you're you're still I mean you're still airing new episodes of course.

Yeah, so only and we're going to get into that. But a lot of people are watching them in syndication. But you're you're still I mean you're still airing new episodes of course.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean we've been you know, we were off for the Olympics and we used that time to do a lot of new stories, all of which you're going to be airing this fall Fridays at nine o'clock Eastern.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean we've been you know, we were off for the Olympics and we used that time to do a lot of new stories, all of which you're going to be airing this fall Fridays at nine o'clock Eastern.

Don't watch alone.

Don't watch alone.

There you go. So how I mean, everyone I know in this industry wants a job that is basically forever.

There you go. So how I mean, everyone I know in this industry wants a job that is basically forever.

How did you pull this off?

How did you pull this off?

Okay, So when I took this job in February of ninety five, I didn't have the slightest thought like, Okay, this is the thing you're going to retire from. You didn't, you know, like what lasts thirty years in television? Nothing? Monday Night Football, Meet the Press. I mean, there just aren't a lot of things. So I thought, well, okay, I'll do this for a while and then, you know, do something else. And I'd been a political reporter before.

Okay, So when I took this job in February of ninety five, I didn't have the slightest thought like, Okay, this is the thing you're going to retire from. You didn't, you know, like what lasts thirty years in television? Nothing? Monday Night Football, Meet the Press. I mean, there just aren't a lot of things. So I thought, well, okay, I'll do this for a while and then, you know, do something else. And I'd been a political reporter before.

Yeah, I covered.

Yeah, I covered.

Politics in New York City and in LA and I had I'd been an correspondent for ABC, and I'd covered the Congress. And when I came to Dayline, we were not doing exclusively crime. We were doing, as you remember, because you remember the original Dayline with the Paphone and Jane. We were doing all kinds of stories.

Politics in New York City and in LA and I had I'd been an correspondent for ABC, and I'd covered the Congress. And when I came to Dayline, we were not doing exclusively crime. We were doing, as you remember, because you remember the original Dayline with the Paphone and Jane. We were doing all kinds of stories.

Yeah, corruption, scandals, yeah.

Yeah, corruption, scandals, yeah.

All sorts of things, funny stories.

All sorts of things, funny stories.

During the nineties stock market boom, we did a thing where we pitted a stockbroker who was picking stocks against the chimp, and we would we'd put the portfolios into the chimp's cage, and whichever one the chip picked up, we'd assumed that that was their choice of which stock to buy. So the you know, the stockbroker was buying like Microsoft, right, and the chimp was like, no, I'm going with Netscape.

During the nineties stock market boom, we did a thing where we pitted a stockbroker who was picking stocks against the chimp, and we would we'd put the portfolios into the chimp's cage, and whichever one the chip picked up, we'd assumed that that was their choice of which stock to buy. So the you know, the stockbroker was buying like Microsoft, right, and the chimp was like, no, I'm going with Netscape.

So and of course, and of course after it, yeah, and of.

So and of course, and of course after it, yeah, and of.

Course, after a period of time, the chip was actually a hat, which was great.

Course, after a period of time, the chip was actually a hat, which was great.

I don't remember how it came out. So we did go.

I don't remember how it came out. So we did go.

Yeah, we did all kinds of stuff. And after I'd been here about ten years. About two thousand and five, we started making the turn to doing in two ways. One is we started doing hour long episodes, which we had none before. We'd done like four or five six stories within an hour. Sometimes you'd do a two part thing, but usually it was you know, the choices were a story that was about two to three minutes long, five to seven minutes long, and then up to about fifteen minutes long.

Yeah, we did all kinds of stuff. And after I'd been here about ten years. About two thousand and five, we started making the turn to doing in two ways. One is we started doing hour long episodes, which we had none before. We'd done like four or five six stories within an hour. Sometimes you'd do a two part thing, but usually it was you know, the choices were a story that was about two to three minutes long, five to seven minutes long, and then up to about fifteen minutes long.

Yep.

Yep.

And then we started doing hours. And we also started covering crime and mostly murders. And when that happened, I was not super interested in doing that.

And then we started doing hours. And we also started covering crime and mostly murders. And when that happened, I was not super interested in doing that.

Now.

Now.

I did not really rebel in the sixties. I had no six in the seventies, I made no money in the eighties. So when true crime came along, I missed that trend too. So it's not surprising.

I did not really rebel in the sixties. I had no six in the seventies, I made no money in the eighties. So when true crime came along, I missed that trend too. So it's not surprising.

I like, a couple of minutes in here, and I already know so much about you, right.

I like, a couple of minutes in here, and I already know so much about you, right.

Yeah, no, I was.

Yeah, no, I was.

I was behind all of those curves. So yeah, I did not see true crime coming. But I thought, okay, I mean I could tell they really wanted to start doing this, yes, and so I thought, all right, I'll do one. So I did one, and after it was over, I thought, well, that wasn't so bad. That was kind of fun, it's kind of interesting. I'm still in touch with the mom from that story.

I was behind all of those curves. So yeah, I did not see true crime coming. But I thought, okay, I mean I could tell they really wanted to start doing this, yes, and so I thought, all right, I'll do one. So I did one, and after it was over, I thought, well, that wasn't so bad. That was kind of fun, it's kind of interesting. I'm still in touch with the mom from that story.

Wow.

Wow.

And then we were just off and running and then it the audience responded. You know, we found ways to tell these stories that sort of wasn't being done anywhere else. Because most crimes I'm not talking about, you know, John Bnay Ramsey or something that everybody knows the details of it. Most of the stories we cover the stories that you've never heard of before. And there are stories where we're able to say to the family involved, you're not going to get two hours of coverage anywhere else. Most of these are stories that got eight to ten inches in the newspaper and maybe a minute or two on local TV news, and then maybe they covered it again when.

And then we were just off and running and then it the audience responded. You know, we found ways to tell these stories that sort of wasn't being done anywhere else. Because most crimes I'm not talking about, you know, John Bnay Ramsey or something that everybody knows the details of it. Most of the stories we cover the stories that you've never heard of before. And there are stories where we're able to say to the family involved, you're not going to get two hours of coverage anywhere else. Most of these are stories that got eight to ten inches in the newspaper and maybe a minute or two on local TV news, and then maybe they covered it again when.

There was a trial, but that was pretty much it.

There was a trial, but that was pretty much it.

But at two hours, we can tell a much longer, a much more in depth story, with a lot more texture, a lot more context, a lot more backstory. You'll get a sense of not just the crime and the killer, but who the victim was, who the family was, what that relationship was.

But at two hours, we can tell a much longer, a much more in depth story, with a lot more texture, a lot more context, a lot more backstory. You'll get a sense of not just the crime and the killer, but who the victim was, who the family was, what that relationship was.

Like, what that loss is like.

Like, what that loss is like.

And sometimes in addition to these terrible stories, you also hear stories of you know, strength and redemption, which is kind of you know resilience, which is one of the things that I think makes people keep coming back to Dayline, because look, most people are never going to be touched by violent crime in their lifetimes. Most people are not going to be the victim of a violent crime. But everybody has been in a relationship that did not end the way they wanted it to, and Daylines about those choices too.

And sometimes in addition to these terrible stories, you also hear stories of you know, strength and redemption, which is kind of you know resilience, which is one of the things that I think makes people keep coming back to Dayline, because look, most people are never going to be touched by violent crime in their lifetimes. Most people are not going to be the victim of a violent crime. But everybody has been in a relationship that did not end the way they wanted it to, and Daylines about those choices too.

Yes, that's such a good point, and I want to talk a lot about Dayline, but first I want to talk about you. You were born in Berkeley. Did you grow up there?

Yes, that's such a good point, and I want to talk a lot about Dayline, but first I want to talk about you. You were born in Berkeley. Did you grow up there?

Now, my dad was going to law school at Berkeley at the time. That's why I was born there.

Now, my dad was going to law school at Berkeley at the time. That's why I was born there.

And then I lived in Los Angeles till I was about six. Then we went to South America because my dad went to the Peace Corps. Then then he was still with the Peace Corps when he went to DC after that. So then by the time I was about nine until I was twenty six twenty seven, I lived in DC.

And then I lived in Los Angeles till I was about six. Then we went to South America because my dad went to the Peace Corps. Then then he was still with the Peace Corps when he went to DC after that. So then by the time I was about nine until I was twenty six twenty seven, I lived in DC.

Well, and I most people don't know the history, the long and impressive history of your very famous family.

Well, and I most people don't know the history, the long and impressive history of your very famous family.

I'm going to run through it for listeners.

I'm going to run through it for listeners.

Okay, I want you to know I'm about to blow a lot of people's minds. So your dad, Frank Mankowitz, was Robert F. Kennedy's press secretary. Yes, we're gonna talk about that, Okay. Your grandfather, Herman, along with Orson Wells, wrote the screenplay for a little movie called Citizen Kane.

Okay, I want you to know I'm about to blow a lot of people's minds. So your dad, Frank Mankowitz, was Robert F. Kennedy's press secretary. Yes, we're gonna talk about that, Okay. Your grandfather, Herman, along with Orson Wells, wrote the screenplay for a little movie called Citizen Kane.

Fyi. Orson Wells had nothing to do with writing that movie. Go ahead, amazing, amazing? Oh good.

Fyi. Orson Wells had nothing to do with writing that movie. Go ahead, amazing, amazing? Oh good.

Your great uncle Joseph was a director and screenwriter of, among other projects, All About Eve. Your brother Ben is a host at Turner Classic Movies. We watch you guys fight on Twitter sometimes. And you've got a couple cousins who are also very successful in the movie business. I mean, I know, right, what was it like growing up with famous relatives?

Your great uncle Joseph was a director and screenwriter of, among other projects, All About Eve. Your brother Ben is a host at Turner Classic Movies. We watch you guys fight on Twitter sometimes. And you've got a couple cousins who are also very successful in the movie business. I mean, I know, right, what was it like growing up with famous relatives?

Well, I don't know.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, you know, you didn't really think about it. I mean, it was just you know, I mean, yeah, you know, George K. Koor was at the dinner table sometimes, you know, at my grandmother's house.

I mean, you know, you didn't really think about it. I mean, it was just you know, I mean, yeah, you know, George K. Koor was at the dinner table sometimes, you know, at my grandmother's house.

But I didn't, like, you know, I wasn't watching his movies. I just knew him as George.

But I didn't, like, you know, I wasn't watching his movies. I just knew him as George.

You know, when my dad was with RFK you know, Dolores Werda was at our kitchen table sort of plotting strategy for the farm workers. But like that was, you know, just a friend of my dad's who came over.

You know, when my dad was with RFK you know, Dolores Werda was at our kitchen table sort of plotting strategy for the farm workers. But like that was, you know, just a friend of my dad's who came over.

So yeah. When I met Robert Kennedy a couple of.

So yeah. When I met Robert Kennedy a couple of.

Times when I was, you know, twelve eleven, twelve years old, I did get the feeling like, Okay, this is this is this is different. Not everybody has this experience.

Times when I was, you know, twelve eleven, twelve years old, I did get the feeling like, Okay, this is this is this is different. Not everybody has this experience.

What do you remember about RFK senior?

What do you remember about RFK senior?

Magnetic, charismatic, very soft spoken, like you had to strain to hear him. He didn't talk, he didn't speak loudly, and I think usually maybe more comfortable around kids than the alt love to talk about what you were up to as a kid, Maybe because he had so many kids.

Magnetic, charismatic, very soft spoken, like you had to strain to hear him. He didn't talk, he didn't speak loudly, and I think usually maybe more comfortable around kids than the alt love to talk about what you were up to as a kid, Maybe because he had so many kids.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Yeah, well, and I don't. I mean, we don't get political here, but I just got to know, what do you make of his son's presidential campaign.

Yeah, well, and I don't. I mean, we don't get political here, but I just got to know, what do you make of his son's presidential campaign.

I barely knew him back then.

I barely knew him back then.

I think I met him a few times, but not accurate to say that we were even friends back then as kids.

I think I met him a few times, but not accurate to say that we were even friends back then as kids.

I think he's a year older than I am.

I think he's a year older than I am.

I ran into him again when he was practicing environmental law in New York City and I was a political reporter for Channel two, and I've covered some event that he was at and then out flours, I went up and said hi to him, and he said, wow, it's weird. We don't know each other a lot better. And I said, yeah, it is weird, and then we've never spoken again, So that was left there. Yeah, that was the extent of my relationship with Rfkjune.

I ran into him again when he was practicing environmental law in New York City and I was a political reporter for Channel two, and I've covered some event that he was at and then out flours, I went up and said hi to him, and he said, wow, it's weird. We don't know each other a lot better. And I said, yeah, it is weird, and then we've never spoken again, So that was left there. Yeah, that was the extent of my relationship with Rfkjune.

You did not remedy the weirdness.

You did not remedy the weirdness.

Right, I mean, my dad would be appalled today.

Right, I mean, my dad would be appalled today.

I don't think that's going to come as any shock, and my dad would be absolutely crestfallen.

I don't think that's going to come as any shock, and my dad would be absolutely crestfallen.

About his campaign.

About his campaign.

You mean, yeah, just about sort of the nuttiness associated with that and the damage he's doing to his own name. But yeah, I mean, might dad be appalled with a lot of things happening in America today, so that that probably wouldn't even make the top ten.

You mean, yeah, just about sort of the nuttiness associated with that and the damage he's doing to his own name. But yeah, I mean, might dad be appalled with a lot of things happening in America today, so that that probably wouldn't even make the top ten.

So did you always want to be in the news?

So did you always want to be in the news?

You know, I grew up watching Vietnam Civil rights movement, Watergate on the evening news every night. Yeah, so I did definitely think about that. You know, we watched the CBS Evening News with water Kronkite.

You know, I grew up watching Vietnam Civil rights movement, Watergate on the evening news every night. Yeah, so I did definitely think about that. You know, we watched the CBS Evening News with water Kronkite.

Good Evening from CBS News headquarters in New York.

Good Evening from CBS News headquarters in New York.

I'm going to say five days a week for you know, probably fifteen years. I mean until I went away to college. And then I remember being in my dorm room at college and thinking like, oh, it's it's seven o'clock. I got to watch the news, and I would get out my little, tiny black on white TV and while everybody else was doing something else, I would be I'd watch the news, you know, and then it was the Patty Hirst story, you know, when I would tell seventy three, there's.

I'm going to say five days a week for you know, probably fifteen years. I mean until I went away to college. And then I remember being in my dorm room at college and thinking like, oh, it's it's seven o'clock. I got to watch the news, and I would get out my little, tiny black on white TV and while everybody else was doing something else, I would be I'd watch the news, you know, and then it was the Patty Hirst story, you know, when I would tell seventy three, there's.

Been a big kidnapping on the West Coast.

Been a big kidnapping on the West Coast.

The victim is Patricia Hurst, the daughter of newspaper executive Randolph Hurst and a granddaughter of the legendary William Randolph Hearst. Because I said, right, I did not have any sex in the seventies, I was watching the news, so uh yeah, I missed every trend.

The victim is Patricia Hurst, the daughter of newspaper executive Randolph Hurst and a granddaughter of the legendary William Randolph Hearst. Because I said, right, I did not have any sex in the seventies, I was watching the news, so uh yeah, I missed every trend.

I'm not sure what this decade is going to be famous for, but I know that I will not.

I'm not sure what this decade is going to be famous for, but I know that I will not.

Do it, okay, So yeah, I mean I always thought about that, and I remember saying to my dad talking about the correspondence on the evening news. I remember saying that guy's got an interesting job, because the other day he was in Texas covering that flood, and today here he is in Alabama and he's covering this protest march or whatever. He had to travel during that time, and he had to get up to speed on this other story, and I thought that sounded like a lot of fun.

Do it, okay, So yeah, I mean I always thought about that, and I remember saying to my dad talking about the correspondence on the evening news. I remember saying that guy's got an interesting job, because the other day he was in Texas covering that flood, and today here he is in Alabama and he's covering this protest march or whatever. He had to travel during that time, and he had to get up to speed on this other story, and I thought that sounded like a lot of fun.

And my dad had been a journalist. No one remembers this about him.

And my dad had been a journalist. No one remembers this about him.

I mean, he's primarily thought of as being in politics and being in PR but he was also president of National Public Radio for a while, and at an earlier stage in his life, he was a local anchorman in Washington, d C. Which no one remembers, in like about nineteen seventy, at which he was spectacularly unsuccessful. So he had a brief foray into TV news also, which sort of exposed me to some of the people who worked there, and that also got me interested. So by the time I was in college, yeah, I was already thinking about this as some kind of career. And I started working at ABC News on the assignment desk in the middle of the night in the summer when everybody else was on vacation, in the summer of seventy five. So it's coming up on fifty years.

I mean, he's primarily thought of as being in politics and being in PR but he was also president of National Public Radio for a while, and at an earlier stage in his life, he was a local anchorman in Washington, d C. Which no one remembers, in like about nineteen seventy, at which he was spectacularly unsuccessful. So he had a brief foray into TV news also, which sort of exposed me to some of the people who worked there, and that also got me interested. So by the time I was in college, yeah, I was already thinking about this as some kind of career. And I started working at ABC News on the assignment desk in the middle of the night in the summer when everybody else was on vacation, in the summer of seventy five. So it's coming up on fifty years.

Wow, what did you study in college? She went to Haverford, Right, I went to Haverford.

Wow, what did you study in college? She went to Haverford, Right, I went to Haverford.

I studied sociology, which maybe not the smartest choice back then.

I studied sociology, which maybe not the smartest choice back then.

I can beat you. I studied art history, super super useful.

I can beat you. I studied art history, super super useful.

Yeah, so yeah, it comes in. Yeah, yeah, I talk a lot about the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. Yeah, comes up, comes up all the time. I also thought there was going to be more quadratic equations as we went.

Yeah, so yeah, it comes in. Yeah, yeah, I talk a lot about the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. Yeah, comes up, comes up all the time. I also thought there was going to be more quadratic equations as we went.

Through life, and there have not been, indeed not been nearly as much of that as I expected.

Through life, and there have not been, indeed not been nearly as much of that as I expected.

No total, total waste. All right, let's get to Dateline. It's nineteen ninety five, and your agent says, what to you?

No total, total waste. All right, let's get to Dateline. It's nineteen ninety five, and your agent says, what to you?

Why are you calling me all the time?

Why are you calling me all the time?

Leave?

Leave?

Leave me alone. I have actual clients. Yeah, it was welcome to be.

Leave me alone. I have actual clients. Yeah, it was welcome to be.

It was not my agent, it was I was in local news in Los Angeles covering politics. Dick Reardon had just been elected mayor. Tom Bradley had left. He was getting sworn in. But I didn't actually cover Reard. I covered the campaign, and that was right at the end of that and there was a big boom of news magazines on all the networks, and Dateline had been around for a couple of years, and it had. They went through that thing with the GM truck where a bunch of people got fired, and the new management team that came in involved a guy named Neil Shapiro who went on to be president of NBC News. But he's the guy that took Dateline from just about at death's door and made it the juggernaut than it is today, first putting us on five nights a week at one time, the multiple editions, and he's the guy that sort of took Dateline from failure to household name and so Neil and I knew Neil from having worked at ABC News with him, But instead of going to Dayline, which I probably could have done, then I went to a news magazine that Fox was doing. There was no Fox News channel then. This was the Fox network right where the NFL now airs called front Page, which was murdoch attempt to do a news magazine, and it's we were on for like less than a year. I think we were on about ten months. Maybe not even Ron Reagan was on that that might jog people's memory. And there were a couple of other correspondents and I was one of them, and that sort of taught me how to do magazine story. It ultimately didn't succeed. We were, you know, I think we were one week. I have this, I tore this out of the newspaper. They don't do this anymore because it's all on the internet.

It was not my agent, it was I was in local news in Los Angeles covering politics. Dick Reardon had just been elected mayor. Tom Bradley had left. He was getting sworn in. But I didn't actually cover Reard. I covered the campaign, and that was right at the end of that and there was a big boom of news magazines on all the networks, and Dateline had been around for a couple of years, and it had. They went through that thing with the GM truck where a bunch of people got fired, and the new management team that came in involved a guy named Neil Shapiro who went on to be president of NBC News. But he's the guy that took Dateline from just about at death's door and made it the juggernaut than it is today, first putting us on five nights a week at one time, the multiple editions, and he's the guy that sort of took Dateline from failure to household name and so Neil and I knew Neil from having worked at ABC News with him, But instead of going to Dayline, which I probably could have done, then I went to a news magazine that Fox was doing. There was no Fox News channel then. This was the Fox network right where the NFL now airs called front Page, which was murdoch attempt to do a news magazine, and it's we were on for like less than a year. I think we were on about ten months. Maybe not even Ron Reagan was on that that might jog people's memory. And there were a couple of other correspondents and I was one of them, and that sort of taught me how to do magazine story. It ultimately didn't succeed. We were, you know, I think we were one week. I have this, I tore this out of the newspaper. They don't do this anymore because it's all on the internet.

But there was a.

But there was a.

There was a time when the papers used to publish the list of TV programs, you know, like the Nielsen raids. Yeah, number one was you know, sixty minutes or something like that, right, or you know, Dallas, right, And then it would go down and one week there were one hundred and three programs and front Page was number one hundred and three.

There was a time when the papers used to publish the list of TV programs, you know, like the Nielsen raids. Yeah, number one was you know, sixty minutes or something like that, right, or you know, Dallas, right, And then it would go down and one week there were one hundred and three programs and front Page was number one hundred and three.

So that we were.

So that we were.

But even then, I mean even then, because there was no streaming and almost no cable programs except you know, reruns and things like that, but there's very little original content on cable. Like even then, that rating today would be like a that show would be a big success, right, just you know, because of the raw numbers. Yeah, but back then it definitely wasn't a success. And while it was off the air and kind of getting retooled and they couldn't decide what to do with it or what to call it or when to put it back on, I left and went to Dayline and that was in February.

But even then, I mean even then, because there was no streaming and almost no cable programs except you know, reruns and things like that, but there's very little original content on cable. Like even then, that rating today would be like a that show would be a big success, right, just you know, because of the raw numbers. Yeah, but back then it definitely wasn't a success. And while it was off the air and kind of getting retooled and they couldn't decide what to do with it or what to call it or when to put it back on, I left and went to Dayline and that was in February.

Of ninety five. Wow.

Of ninety five. Wow.

And it's always except for the time you're talking about where I was at Death Store, it's always been a successful franchise. But it feels like it's reached kind of a cult status now where it's even cooler than it was like ten or twenty years ago, and younger generations are discovering it and there's memes about you guys, And what's that been like to have this like resurgence.

And it's always except for the time you're talking about where I was at Death Store, it's always been a successful franchise. But it feels like it's reached kind of a cult status now where it's even cooler than it was like ten or twenty years ago, and younger generations are discovering it and there's memes about you guys, And what's that been like to have this like resurgence.

Well, you know, for a long time when a young person would come up to me in an airport and say, you're Josh, make it some dayline, Like, uh huh, the next line was always my mom.

Well, you know, for a long time when a young person would come up to me in an airport and say, you're Josh, make it some dayline, Like, uh huh, the next line was always my mom.

Loves you and I take a picture. Right now they know us, they're not asking for them for their mom.

Loves you and I take a picture. Right now they know us, they're not asking for them for their mom.

And yeah, there was a point where Neil Shapiro, who you know, made Dateline this big success.

And yeah, there was a point where Neil Shapiro, who you know, made Dateline this big success.

He moved up to be president of NBC.

He moved up to be president of NBC.

News, and David Corvo, who actually had produced the Fox show that I worked on, Front Page, he came to be executive producer of Dayline and he's the guy that took us into true crime. And that's kind of what made Dateline the thing that it is today. That's what sort of got us that that that new audience. And also, yeah, it made us cool in a way I sort of didn't see coming. But we're all over popular culture now. I mean when when Taylor Swift is talking about how Dateline helped her create a song, I'm thinking, like, what really mean?

News, and David Corvo, who actually had produced the Fox show that I worked on, Front Page, he came to be executive producer of Dayline and he's the guy that took us into true crime. And that's kind of what made Dateline the thing that it is today. That's what sort of got us that that that new audience. And also, yeah, it made us cool in a way I sort of didn't see coming. But we're all over popular culture now. I mean when when Taylor Swift is talking about how Dateline helped her create a song, I'm thinking, like, what really mean?

Yeah, it's very cool, and you know it's funny. I develop shows as well, And when I am in a pitch meeting with a network, this is what they'll say. I've heard this from several different network heads. They'll say, we want something we can make a hundred of like Dateline. People want to invest over and if they're liking something, they want it over and over. Give it to me again, give it to me again. And that's what's so great about Dateline because they're endless, unfortunately, endless stories to tell.

Yeah, it's very cool, and you know it's funny. I develop shows as well, And when I am in a pitch meeting with a network, this is what they'll say. I've heard this from several different network heads. They'll say, we want something we can make a hundred of like Dateline. People want to invest over and if they're liking something, they want it over and over. Give it to me again, give it to me again. And that's what's so great about Dateline because they're endless, unfortunately, endless stories to tell.

Yeah, there are endless stories to tell, that is true. Yeah, and also people see them again and again and again.

Yeah, there are endless stories to tell, that is true. Yeah, and also people see them again and again and again.

Yes, they know how it ends, and they still want to watch it.

Yes, they know how it ends, and they still want to watch it.

And they watch it anyway. And I mean we are all I mean not only are we all over the podcast universe. Yes, there's about five ways to get that Dateline twenty four to seven streaming channel. I mean, it's on Peacock, but it's also I think on Samsung TVs.

And they watch it anyway. And I mean we are all I mean not only are we all over the podcast universe. Yes, there's about five ways to get that Dateline twenty four to seven streaming channel. I mean, it's on Peacock, but it's also I think on Samsung TVs.

It's on YouTube. I mean, and so I mean you can go back. You can't go back thirty two seasons because.

It's on YouTube. I mean, and so I mean you can go back. You can't go back thirty two seasons because.

At one point we switched from standard definition to high definition and the standard def episodes are not streaming because they look weird on your on your TV.

At one point we switched from standard definition to high definition and the standard def episodes are not streaming because they look weird on your on your TV.

But you can go back. You can go back a very long way.

But you can go back. You can go back a very long way.

You can watch a lot of those episodes, and people do and and they see them again and again and again and then I mean, I know people when people now talk to me about Dayline, I always ask them how they consume it, because some people like, don't watch the TV show, they're listening to the podcast, right.

You can watch a lot of those episodes, and people do and and they see them again and again and again and then I mean, I know people when people now talk to me about Dayline, I always ask them how they consume it, because some people like, don't watch the TV show, they're listening to the podcast, right.

Some people are unaware.

Some people are unaware.

That there are podcasts out there of them, you know, and you know on the podcast, I mean, it is the audio of Dayline.

That there are podcasts out there of them, you know, and you know on the podcast, I mean, it is the audio of Dayline.

We don't change that at all.

We don't change that at all.

We do some original podcasts every year and those those are done specifically to be podcasts, and they take a lot longer. But people eat up those podcasts because they're consumable in ways that television is not. Like in your car or you know, when you're commuting or when you're you know, doing work around the house.

We do some original podcasts every year and those those are done specifically to be podcasts, and they take a lot longer. But people eat up those podcasts because they're consumable in ways that television is not. Like in your car or you know, when you're commuting or when you're you know, doing work around the house.

Right to Jim, Yeah, do you and the other hosts ever fight over stories, like tell me the process, how a story comes to you or you get assigned a story.

Right to Jim, Yeah, do you and the other hosts ever fight over stories, like tell me the process, how a story comes to you or you get assigned a story.

I would say no, we don't, although within the way Keith disag well. Within the last couple of weeks, just for the first time since I've since I've been a correspondent at Dayline, there was a story that I was going to do in Canada, a cold case story.

I would say no, we don't, although within the way Keith disag well. Within the last couple of weeks, just for the first time since I've since I've been a correspondent at Dayline, there was a story that I was going to do in Canada, a cold case story.

And I did a story in Canada several months ago, and those cops put us onto this case.

And I did a story in Canada several months ago, and those cops put us onto this case.

So the producer and I were going to do this one too, but it turns out that it's it's happening in a The story occurred in a place that Keith thinks of as his hometown, and when he saw that story was beingid, he said to me, I want to do that. I'm like, I thought, wait aboute my name's already on that.

So the producer and I were going to do this one too, but it turns out that it's it's happening in a The story occurred in a place that Keith thinks of as his hometown, and when he saw that story was beingid, he said to me, I want to do that. I'm like, I thought, wait aboute my name's already on that.

And then I was like, it's in everyone's interest at Dayline.

And then I was like, it's in everyone's interest at Dayline.

For Keith Morrison to be as happy as possible, So so I was like, you know what, go to Canada, have a great time. But yeah, normally no, we do not fight over any stories and that doesn't even qualify as a fight. But you know, we hear about these stories all kinds of different ways. I mean, we were reading the papers all over the country every day, and we're online all the time. And because we've been around so long, police departments, prosecutors, local stations, even defense attorneys are calling us and saying, I don't know how this is going to come out, but this woman is missing. Her husband is not joining in the searches, he's retained a lawyer, he's acting very strangely. And we start making calls.

For Keith Morrison to be as happy as possible, So so I was like, you know what, go to Canada, have a great time. But yeah, normally no, we do not fight over any stories and that doesn't even qualify as a fight. But you know, we hear about these stories all kinds of different ways. I mean, we were reading the papers all over the country every day, and we're online all the time. And because we've been around so long, police departments, prosecutors, local stations, even defense attorneys are calling us and saying, I don't know how this is going to come out, but this woman is missing. Her husband is not joining in the searches, he's retained a lawyer, he's acting very strangely. And we start making calls.

So I mean a lot of wait, are they doing that because they want like this crime solved and exposed?

So I mean a lot of wait, are they doing that because they want like this crime solved and exposed?

Why are they doing that just because they're being helpful? You know? I mean why are they calling us in the local station.

Why are they doing that just because they're being helpful? You know? I mean why are they calling us in the local station.

Because you know, because we'll probably end up, you know, maybe interviewing their reporter or using their coverage, or they'll will be on their air talking about this story. I mean, when I go, you know, some small town and we do a story about that, we probably will do some little mini version of the story for them, you know, if they want me to come on their newscast and talk about it, I will. But in many cases they've already done a huge amount of the sort of digging on this story. They've probably covered the trial. They probably were there early on when that search warrant was being served. We weren't, but they were. We might be using those pictures that they shot. So local stations call us, but so do so do investigators that we've worked with in the past, because you know, most people who have appeared on Dateline. I'm not necessarily talking about the murderers here, but most people who have appeared on dateline think like, yeah, that worked out, I'm glad I did that.

Because you know, because we'll probably end up, you know, maybe interviewing their reporter or using their coverage, or they'll will be on their air talking about this story. I mean, when I go, you know, some small town and we do a story about that, we probably will do some little mini version of the story for them, you know, if they want me to come on their newscast and talk about it, I will. But in many cases they've already done a huge amount of the sort of digging on this story. They've probably covered the trial. They probably were there early on when that search warrant was being served. We weren't, but they were. We might be using those pictures that they shot. So local stations call us, but so do so do investigators that we've worked with in the past, because you know, most people who have appeared on Dateline. I'm not necessarily talking about the murderers here, but most people who have appeared on dateline think like, yeah, that worked out, I'm glad I did that.

Yeah, well, I want to say. I said I was a devotee of true crime, and I don't know if you've got this a lot, But then I had a kid, and every victim, every awful story of unsolved crime was about my kid, and I couldn't separate it. And add that to the stories I cover for a living, the terrible things that happen to innocent people, from war to genocide.

Yeah, well, I want to say. I said I was a devotee of true crime, and I don't know if you've got this a lot, But then I had a kid, and every victim, every awful story of unsolved crime was about my kid, and I couldn't separate it. And add that to the stories I cover for a living, the terrible things that happen to innocent people, from war to genocide.

You know, I had to take a break from it.

You know, I had to take a break from it.

And I'm better now, but I have to be in a very good mental health space to watch a doc or a dock series about real like violent crime. Sure, do you ever take it home with you.

And I'm better now, but I have to be in a very good mental health space to watch a doc or a dock series about real like violent crime. Sure, do you ever take it home with you.

These stories I don't I do understand because I tend to focus on sort of the other things you learn from those stories, not just the awful things that people do to each other, which still shocks me all these years later. You know, the things that people do to somebody that they you know, once maybe love, Yeah, somebody that might very well be the parent of their children, and people think like, oh, yeah, it'll be fine, my kids can lose their other parent in some violent way.

These stories I don't I do understand because I tend to focus on sort of the other things you learn from those stories, not just the awful things that people do to each other, which still shocks me all these years later. You know, the things that people do to somebody that they you know, once maybe love, Yeah, somebody that might very well be the parent of their children, and people think like, oh, yeah, it'll be fine, my kids can lose their other parent in some violent way.

I'll be okay, right, I mean, and that lose me because I'm in jail now.

I'll be okay, right, I mean, and that lose me because I'm in jail now.

I don't understand any of that kind of thing. But you also see tremendous stories of faith, of strength, of resiliency, of recovery, and so I was kind of like focus on that stuff. And sometimes it's like, it's really nice to see justice done. I mean, that's one of the reasons why people watch Dateline because like, so much in the world doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But you know, Fridays at nine that scoundrel gets what's coming to them most.

I don't understand any of that kind of thing. But you also see tremendous stories of faith, of strength, of resiliency, of recovery, and so I was kind of like focus on that stuff. And sometimes it's like, it's really nice to see justice done. I mean, that's one of the reasons why people watch Dateline because like, so much in the world doesn't work the way it's supposed to. But you know, Fridays at nine that scoundrel gets what's coming to them most.

Of the time, and that's sort of satisfying.

Of the time, and that's sort of satisfying.

But look, you know, we don't we could choose bloodier stories We could do stories about serial killers. Certainly, there's a lot of programs out there doing that. We could do sex crimes, we could do crimes, you know, involving children, and we could do much bloodier things than we do. But we don't because like the audience could change the channel. I mean, I don't want them to have the same reaction you did, which is like I can't watch this. Yeah right, yeah, we're not. You know, Dennis Murphy's famous line about Dateline is, it's not about the murder, It's about the marriage.

But look, you know, we don't we could choose bloodier stories We could do stories about serial killers. Certainly, there's a lot of programs out there doing that. We could do sex crimes, we could do crimes, you know, involving children, and we could do much bloodier things than we do. But we don't because like the audience could change the channel. I mean, I don't want them to have the same reaction you did, which is like I can't watch this. Yeah right, yeah, we're not. You know, Dennis Murphy's famous line about Dateline is, it's not about the murder, It's about the marriage.

You know, it's so good.

You know, it's so good.

This is about the relationships. This is not about the mechanics of the crime. It's about the mechanics sometimes of solving the crime, and sometimes it's about the trail that got police and prosecutors to the door of a murderer. But it's usually not about exactly what happened in that room and how many times somebody got shot or stabbed. And now we can't even show most of those pictures on television, I mean the number of you know, we always wait till the end because we wanted to be adjudicated, and also that's when you can get any exhibit that was shown in court crime scene photos and stuff, But I mean, what percentage of the crime scene photos can we show? Like maybe five percent? Most of them we can't. So I mean this is not about shocking people because so much of it. We could cover much more horrifying things, But like, I don't want to drive people away.

This is about the relationships. This is not about the mechanics of the crime. It's about the mechanics sometimes of solving the crime, and sometimes it's about the trail that got police and prosecutors to the door of a murderer. But it's usually not about exactly what happened in that room and how many times somebody got shot or stabbed. And now we can't even show most of those pictures on television, I mean the number of you know, we always wait till the end because we wanted to be adjudicated, and also that's when you can get any exhibit that was shown in court crime scene photos and stuff, But I mean, what percentage of the crime scene photos can we show? Like maybe five percent? Most of them we can't. So I mean this is not about shocking people because so much of it. We could cover much more horrifying things, But like, I don't want to drive people away.

I want people paying attention.

I want people paying attention.

Up next, I talked to Josh about a story he never expected to cover. Can you talk to me about doctor Steve pitt Ugh?

Up next, I talked to Josh about a story he never expected to cover. Can you talk to me about doctor Steve pitt Ugh?

Okay, Well, I met him because we interviewed him on a story about the twenty year anniversary of the John Benet story. Now I didn't cover the John Benet story when it happened. Somebody else did, but they had left Dateline by the time it was time to do a twenty year story, so I kind of inherited that.

Okay, Well, I met him because we interviewed him on a story about the twenty year anniversary of the John Benet story. Now I didn't cover the John Benet story when it happened. Somebody else did, but they had left Dateline by the time it was time to do a twenty year story, so I kind of inherited that.

So I met him.

So I met him.

Because he had worked with the Boulder Police on that, and so he was an interview on that, and he was a good friend of a producer that worked for Dateline at the time who lived in Phoenix, which is also where Steve lived, so they've gotten to know each other. So through all of that I met him and we became friends, and he came out here to La a lot where I live, and he and his fiance and and I went out. And I don't want to make this sound like he was my best friend on the face of the earth, but it was clear he was going to become a better friend as the weeks and months went on. And he called me and said, Hey, I'm going to be in town. I'm at this art fair and once you drop by. So I did drop by, and he was there, and he was in a great mood, and we sat around and had a couple of laughs, and that was that. We were going to meet again a few weeks later and a couple of weeks after that. He was a psychiatrist, by the way, for people who don't know, he was a forensic psychiatrist, and he did a lot of work for law enforcement over the years, helped police with profiles of different criminals and also did some court ordered evaluations of different people. Had done that over the years, in addition to having his own practice. He was very successful. I worked in the Phoenix area, and a couple of weeks after I had seen him here in Los Angeles, I was driving up the coast to a wedding north of la in the Wine Country and the offic started calling me, and I thought, oh, no, no, no, no, I am off. I am going to this wedding. My wife was sitting next to me. No, no, I am not. I don't know what you're calling me for, but I am not available. And so I didn't answer the phone, and they called a couple of times.

Because he had worked with the Boulder Police on that, and so he was an interview on that, and he was a good friend of a producer that worked for Dateline at the time who lived in Phoenix, which is also where Steve lived, so they've gotten to know each other. So through all of that I met him and we became friends, and he came out here to La a lot where I live, and he and his fiance and and I went out. And I don't want to make this sound like he was my best friend on the face of the earth, but it was clear he was going to become a better friend as the weeks and months went on. And he called me and said, Hey, I'm going to be in town. I'm at this art fair and once you drop by. So I did drop by, and he was there, and he was in a great mood, and we sat around and had a couple of laughs, and that was that. We were going to meet again a few weeks later and a couple of weeks after that. He was a psychiatrist, by the way, for people who don't know, he was a forensic psychiatrist, and he did a lot of work for law enforcement over the years, helped police with profiles of different criminals and also did some court ordered evaluations of different people. Had done that over the years, in addition to having his own practice. He was very successful. I worked in the Phoenix area, and a couple of weeks after I had seen him here in Los Angeles, I was driving up the coast to a wedding north of la in the Wine Country and the offic started calling me, and I thought, oh, no, no, no, no, I am off. I am going to this wedding. My wife was sitting next to me. No, no, I am not. I don't know what you're calling me for, but I am not available. And so I didn't answer the phone, and they called a couple of times.

I'm like, mm mmmm, maybe you're not did not read the memo.

I'm like, mm mmmm, maybe you're not did not read the memo.

Where I am taking three days off, and then they texted me the link to the Arizona Republic. Steve Pitt had been murdered outside of his office the night before, and I just drove off the road. So a couple of days later I was in Phoenix for Steve Pitt's funeral, and I don't know, two weeks after that, which I wasn't expecting, we were doing a dateline episode about his murder. And it turned out somebody that he had done a court ordered evaluation of like eight or nine years earlier. Had something happened, We don't know what. That sort of hpped him over and made him want to start avenging what he saw as everybody having had done to him. He was almost certainly looking for the woman who had been his wife, but she was very afraid of him, and she also had the financial wherewithal to be able to hide herself and their son, so the guy could not find them, although god, I think they would be dead. Yeah, I'm sure at least she would be dead. But he couldn't find her. But he could find Steve, who was still listed, and he went to Steve's office and murdered him as Steve was leaving. Then he went to the attorney who had represented the wife in the divorce. The attorney wasn't actually in the office, but a couple of paralegals were, and this guy killed them. Then he went to the psychologist's office, who he saw as having turned his son against him. That psychologist wasn't there, but he rented office space to some other person, and so he killed that guy. And then it turned out he'd killed another couple in their home, maybe before any of this happened, because he had their gun. And I'm not sure what that They weren't connected to the divorce or his issues with his family, but he might have wanted money from them, or it's not quite clear when he wanted, but he had killed them too.

Where I am taking three days off, and then they texted me the link to the Arizona Republic. Steve Pitt had been murdered outside of his office the night before, and I just drove off the road. So a couple of days later I was in Phoenix for Steve Pitt's funeral, and I don't know, two weeks after that, which I wasn't expecting, we were doing a dateline episode about his murder. And it turned out somebody that he had done a court ordered evaluation of like eight or nine years earlier. Had something happened, We don't know what. That sort of hpped him over and made him want to start avenging what he saw as everybody having had done to him. He was almost certainly looking for the woman who had been his wife, but she was very afraid of him, and she also had the financial wherewithal to be able to hide herself and their son, so the guy could not find them, although god, I think they would be dead. Yeah, I'm sure at least she would be dead. But he couldn't find her. But he could find Steve, who was still listed, and he went to Steve's office and murdered him as Steve was leaving. Then he went to the attorney who had represented the wife in the divorce. The attorney wasn't actually in the office, but a couple of paralegals were, and this guy killed them. Then he went to the psychologist's office, who he saw as having turned his son against him. That psychologist wasn't there, but he rented office space to some other person, and so he killed that guy. And then it turned out he'd killed another couple in their home, maybe before any of this happened, because he had their gun. And I'm not sure what that They weren't connected to the divorce or his issues with his family, but he might have wanted money from them, or it's not quite clear when he wanted, but he had killed them too.

And then by the time police in Phoenix and.

And then by the time police in Phoenix and.

Scottsdale figured out like they sort of connected the dots, they realized what this hall was. They found where he was, they surrounded him, but the guy killed himself before before he could be brought in. So yeah, that was the first time I covered the story of a murder of somebody that I had known. And the weird thing was, when Steve and I had been hanging out in Los Angeles about ten days earlier, he was already in that guy's sites. The police found that he'd been sort of stalking Steve for a while, I probably learning, you know, when he went to work, and when he went home, they saw his car. They went back on security video and so his car park nearby. So Insteve was already a marked man at the time that we met, which was very sobering and what a loss. I mean, not only was it this huge resource for law enforcement and did a lot of good, but he was also just the most wonderful guy.

Scottsdale figured out like they sort of connected the dots, they realized what this hall was. They found where he was, they surrounded him, but the guy killed himself before before he could be brought in. So yeah, that was the first time I covered the story of a murder of somebody that I had known. And the weird thing was, when Steve and I had been hanging out in Los Angeles about ten days earlier, he was already in that guy's sites. The police found that he'd been sort of stalking Steve for a while, I probably learning, you know, when he went to work, and when he went home, they saw his car. They went back on security video and so his car park nearby. So Insteve was already a marked man at the time that we met, which was very sobering and what a loss. I mean, not only was it this huge resource for law enforcement and did a lot of good, but he was also just the most wonderful guy.

So when I hear a story like that, my broken brain does a thing where it tells me the odds of something awful happening to me or my family are way better than they really are, simply because I've covered so many awful things, and now there's something awful happening in your own circle?

So when I hear a story like that, my broken brain does a thing where it tells me the odds of something awful happening to me or my family are way better than they really are, simply because I've covered so many awful things, and now there's something awful happening in your own circle?

Why am I special? Why will I be spared?

Why am I special? Why will I be spared?

Does this ever happen to you? Do you internalize stories that way? Like the volume of stories? Does that impact you?

Does this ever happen to you? Do you internalize stories that way? Like the volume of stories? Does that impact you?

You know? I mean? Am I more careful?

You know? I mean? Am I more careful?

I don't know? Maybe? I mean I don't. I don't walk around thinking that something terrible.

I don't know? Maybe? I mean I don't. I don't walk around thinking that something terrible.

Is going to happen. You know.

Is going to happen. You know.

I know that cops who've seen like a lot of terrible things, you know, when they're you know that that there can be very strict parents, you know, and when their kid says to them, you know, I'm going to we're all going to the mall.

I know that cops who've seen like a lot of terrible things, you know, when they're you know that that there can be very strict parents, you know, and when their kid says to them, you know, I'm going to we're all going to the mall.

No, you're not right, right, they're not Your friends can go, You're not going. Well, we're all going out to this all night party. No, you aren't right, which you know can have the opposite effect.

No, you're not right, right, they're not Your friends can go, You're not going. Well, we're all going out to this all night party. No, you aren't right, which you know can have the opposite effect.

I mean, it can make your kid chafe and end up doing things that are dangerous. Yeah, you know, you know, I mean, there's no way to know. Obviously. No, the answer is you're wrong. You actually have a tiny, tiny chance.

I mean, it can make your kid chafe and end up doing things that are dangerous. Yeah, you know, you know, I mean, there's no way to know. Obviously. No, the answer is you're wrong. You actually have a tiny, tiny chance.

There's something wrong with you. It's there's something wrong with me, and it's my anxiety and it's why I'm in I'm in treatment and therapy and on medication.

There's something wrong with you. It's there's something wrong with me, and it's my anxiety and it's why I'm in I'm in treatment and therapy and on medication.

Right.

Right.

But I mean, but you're not alone. I mean sure a lot of people think that.

But I mean, but you're not alone. I mean sure a lot of people think that.

Yeah, it's just hard to it's hard to dissociate sometimes and it's hard to separate it, and it's hard not to think there is trouble around every corner. And it's so wonderful that you don't have that problem considering what you do.

Yeah, it's just hard to it's hard to dissociate sometimes and it's hard to separate it, and it's hard not to think there is trouble around every corner. And it's so wonderful that you don't have that problem considering what you do.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't sort of look around every corner and think like something terrible is about to happen or is going to happen.

I don't sort of look around every corner and think like something terrible is about to happen or is going to happen.

I'm glad. It's awful, it's exhausting.

I'm glad. It's awful, it's exhausting.

But I will say I am careful. I mean, I you know, I don't walk to my car looking at my phone and.

But I will say I am careful. I mean, I you know, I don't walk to my car looking at my phone and.

Not looking around. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Not looking around. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Whether that comes from Dayline or not, because that's probably just good advice no matter who you are.

Whether that comes from Dayline or not, because that's probably just good advice no matter who you are.

Right, you wrote somewhere that we live in a world in which there's too much violence and not enough mental health care.

Right, you wrote somewhere that we live in a world in which there's too much violence and not enough mental health care.

And that's for sure a fact.

And that's for sure a fact.

I mean, I mean, one of the things that Steve said in his evaluation of that guy was that if he didn't get some significant medical psychological intervention, that he was going to be a big problem, and that guy didn't get any and he was a big problem. And also you know, I think he was ordered by a judge not to have any guns. But there's sort of no mechanism for making sure that people in that situation, you know, don't come into possession of a gun or you know, there's I mean there's in Arizona where that happened, that just wasn't anything, and there's hardly anything in a lot of other places too, So I mean, yeah, I mean we do. We live in a society where you know, there's this trap door out there all the time for everybody, I mean, too big a stigma against you know, going into therapy or getting help.

I mean, I mean, one of the things that Steve said in his evaluation of that guy was that if he didn't get some significant medical psychological intervention, that he was going to be a big problem, and that guy didn't get any and he was a big problem. And also you know, I think he was ordered by a judge not to have any guns. But there's sort of no mechanism for making sure that people in that situation, you know, don't come into possession of a gun or you know, there's I mean there's in Arizona where that happened, that just wasn't anything, and there's hardly anything in a lot of other places too, So I mean, yeah, I mean we do. We live in a society where you know, there's this trap door out there all the time for everybody, I mean, too big a stigma against you know, going into therapy or getting help.

It's too hard.

It's too hard.

That's why I talk about it, because they don't want there to be a stigma, and it's just so important. Anxiety is now the most common mental health disorder, and it's really impacting a lot of kids, and it's it's tough. We live in an anxious and anxious time and an anxious world. Okay, my friends, yes, run a thing called crime con. They started crime con YEP, which is super popular convention.

That's why I talk about it, because they don't want there to be a stigma, and it's just so important. Anxiety is now the most common mental health disorder, and it's really impacting a lot of kids, and it's it's tough. We live in an anxious and anxious time and an anxious world. Okay, my friends, yes, run a thing called crime con. They started crime con YEP, which is super popular convention.

I know you've gone to meet with fans. I love it. I get the appeal.

I know you've gone to meet with fans. I love it. I get the appeal.

I am super proud of my friends for creating a space for fans like this. But it's a little weird that we live in a world where crime gets its own celebratory convention.

I am super proud of my friends for creating a space for fans like this. But it's a little weird that we live in a world where crime gets its own celebratory convention.

Though. I mean there's a big community out there. Somebody was certainly going to figure out that, you know, that there was money to be made by bringing everybody together.

Though. I mean there's a big community out there. Somebody was certainly going to figure out that, you know, that there was money to be made by bringing everybody together.

Yeah, you know, I like it because it's a chance to meet.

Yeah, you know, I like it because it's a chance to meet.

I mean I went to the first one all along, which was in Indianapolis, and I think there have been six of them so far.

I mean I went to the first one all along, which was in Indianapolis, and I think there have been six of them so far.