What do you do when life doesn't go according to plan? That moment you lose a job, or a loved one, or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down with a guest to talk about the times they were knocked off course and what they did to move forward. Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice answers one question, now what? So you have a nine.

What do you do when life doesn't go according to plan? That moment you lose a job, or a loved one, or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down with a guest to talk about the times they were knocked off course and what they did to move forward. Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice answers one question, now what? So you have a nine.

Year old I do, and a sixteen year old sick. My daughter Willow is sixteen and Sam is twenty one. We're going to see Taylor Swift tomorrow night, so excited. And she got me a very spangly silver, sparkly blazer that I'm to wear at the concert.

Year old I do, and a sixteen year old sick. My daughter Willow is sixteen and Sam is twenty one. We're going to see Taylor Swift tomorrow night, so excited. And she got me a very spangly silver, sparkly blazer that I'm to wear at the concert.

Are you a swifty? Now? You're a swifty?

Are you a swifty? Now? You're a swifty?

Well? I can say that. I hear a lot of tailors Swift in the car, and I think she's kind of great. But I yeah, I'm by proxy, I gilt by association.

Well? I can say that. I hear a lot of tailors Swift in the car, and I think she's kind of great. But I yeah, I'm by proxy, I gilt by association.

My guest today is an old friend and a familiar face to anyone who came of age in the eighties. Andrew McCarthy is a writer, director, actor, and famously a member of the Brat Pack. He became a household name thanks to films like Pretty in Pink and Weekend at Bernie's before pivoting to a successful career as a TV and travel writer and director. We got to know each other well when we co starred on the show Lipstick Jungle, and time and again I was impressed by his versatility, charm and quiet intelligence. His hustle and flexibility are something to be admired, and I can't wait for all of you to get to know him a little better and take a fun trip down memory link. Here is Andrew McCarthy. I'm trying to think of how long we've known each other. We've known each other quite a while.

My guest today is an old friend and a familiar face to anyone who came of age in the eighties. Andrew McCarthy is a writer, director, actor, and famously a member of the Brat Pack. He became a household name thanks to films like Pretty in Pink and Weekend at Bernie's before pivoting to a successful career as a TV and travel writer and director. We got to know each other well when we co starred on the show Lipstick Jungle, and time and again I was impressed by his versatility, charm and quiet intelligence. His hustle and flexibility are something to be admired, and I can't wait for all of you to get to know him a little better and take a fun trip down memory link. Here is Andrew McCarthy. I'm trying to think of how long we've known each other. We've known each other quite a while.

Yeah, I don't know why.

Yeah, I don't know why.

But it's interesting because I feel like I really just got to know you for real life when you directed Lipstick Jungle. When you acted in it, obviously, but when I really got to experience you as a human being, it was being directed by you.

But it's interesting because I feel like I really just got to know you for real life when you directed Lipstick Jungle. When you acted in it, obviously, but when I really got to experience you as a human being, it was being directed by you.

I wonder what the difference was being directed by me? Is just acting with me.

I wonder what the difference was being directed by me? Is just acting with me.

It was different, I think because I'm really I really do take one hat off and put another one on. And I think it's the first time I really had been directed by an actor. When did you become a director? When did you first direct?

It was different, I think because I'm really I really do take one hat off and put another one on. And I think it's the first time I really had been directed by an actor. When did you become a director? When did you first direct?

Go on that show for real Life? No, you had I directed a short film before that that I made myself.

Go on that show for real Life? No, you had I directed a short film before that that I made myself.

And the episode you directed was very well. There were so many moving pieces to it, like That's what was so interesting to me was it was a big episode, meaning like lots of people and lots of activity, and I remember thinking, damn, like he's so multi talented. It always amazes me how people I'm gonna say, like us, because I'm gonna put myself in your category who sort of become very well known and sort of extremely famous early, how little people expect we're capable of.

And the episode you directed was very well. There were so many moving pieces to it, like That's what was so interesting to me was it was a big episode, meaning like lots of people and lots of activity, and I remember thinking, damn, like he's so multi talented. It always amazes me how people I'm gonna say, like us, because I'm gonna put myself in your category who sort of become very well known and sort of extremely famous early, how little people expect we're capable of.

Well, I would certainly put myself into your category, not you into mine. But that's really true. That's really true, And I imagine more so even for a woman clearly and a beautiful woman, because those are two things that they immediately you know, you're immediately thought of as having less intelligence, you know still, but yes, for me, it was more I was perceived as like, well he didn't even not going to care, Like it was a show up and think people other people are going to do the work. You know. But what you and I both have and what we learned very young, and one of the things I always most admire about you is you know how to work and go to work and like be prepared and show up and go to work. And that's you know a lot of people don't.

Well, I would certainly put myself into your category, not you into mine. But that's really true. That's really true, And I imagine more so even for a woman clearly and a beautiful woman, because those are two things that they immediately you know, you're immediately thought of as having less intelligence, you know still, but yes, for me, it was more I was perceived as like, well he didn't even not going to care, Like it was a show up and think people other people are going to do the work. You know. But what you and I both have and what we learned very young, and one of the things I always most admire about you is you know how to work and go to work and like be prepared and show up and go to work. And that's you know a lot of people don't.

Where was that stigma for you? Like I was blue Lagoon or pretty where you were brad Packed?

Where was that stigma for you? Like I was blue Lagoon or pretty where you were brad Packed?

Yeah? Yeah, the minute I was, the minute the brad Pack label was leveled, that was it yould at a certain level of movie. That's the kind of actor you were, And that was that and I was, you know, dismissed as that. You know what's weird is that, of course, the brad Pack label has grown to be this iconically affectionate term for a moment in pop culture, and me and other members of the brad Pack and you to a lesser degree because you're so you're your own unique kind of thing, but you know, we are the avatars of a certain generation. So it's you're now seen with great affection all but the brad Pack was a very derogatory term when it was first leveled.

Yeah? Yeah, the minute I was, the minute the brad Pack label was leveled, that was it yould at a certain level of movie. That's the kind of actor you were, And that was that and I was, you know, dismissed as that. You know what's weird is that, of course, the brad Pack label has grown to be this iconically affectionate term for a moment in pop culture, and me and other members of the brad Pack and you to a lesser degree because you're so you're your own unique kind of thing, but you know, we are the avatars of a certain generation. So it's you're now seen with great affection all but the brad Pack was a very derogatory term when it was first leveled.

Our affection took about forty years to kick in on that line.

Our affection took about forty years to kick in on that line.

Yeah, no, I think so. I think so into a very real I think people have I had affection for the brat pack more quickly than I did. Why Why Because I it was cast in aspersion. It was cast as its way of going your brats and you're in this pack and who wants to be seen as a pack when you're a young actor and all that, And it was just a labeling and a branding and you know, all any of us ever want is to be seen, right see who I am? And you know, as my career was starting, is that, you know, I was like wondrous and wonderful and exciting and thrilling, and then sudden we're in the brat pack and it was just like a I lost control of the narrative of my career and in many ways my life. Because forty odd years later, thirty five years later, in any introduction of me, brad pack will still be mentioned in the first sentence, you know, But I have come. I'm speaking about it with some spleen now because that's what it was like back then. But I have come to see. You know, when people look at me and they come up to me now about Putty in Pink or whatever, they have such a glassy eyed look of affection in their eyes, and you know they're talking about themselves that in their youth, and that I've come to represent that to them. Took me decades, but to realize what a beautiful thing that is.

Yeah, no, I think so. I think so into a very real I think people have I had affection for the brat pack more quickly than I did. Why Why Because I it was cast in aspersion. It was cast as its way of going your brats and you're in this pack and who wants to be seen as a pack when you're a young actor and all that, And it was just a labeling and a branding and you know, all any of us ever want is to be seen, right see who I am? And you know, as my career was starting, is that, you know, I was like wondrous and wonderful and exciting and thrilling, and then sudden we're in the brat pack and it was just like a I lost control of the narrative of my career and in many ways my life. Because forty odd years later, thirty five years later, in any introduction of me, brad pack will still be mentioned in the first sentence, you know, But I have come. I'm speaking about it with some spleen now because that's what it was like back then. But I have come to see. You know, when people look at me and they come up to me now about Putty in Pink or whatever, they have such a glassy eyed look of affection in their eyes, and you know they're talking about themselves that in their youth, and that I've come to represent that to them. Took me decades, but to realize what a beautiful thing that is.

Doing the documentary about it help you reclaim it.

Doing the documentary about it help you reclaim it.

Writing the book about it helped me to understand it. So I wrote a book a couple of years ago about that time infe because I'd never looked at it, and I'd run from it, you know, and I just wanted to get on with my whatever, and I thought, I shaid, it's not going anywhere. Maybe you should try to look at this seminal moment in your life and actually see what went on there. And so, as you know, when you write something, and you said, it helps you understand it, and then you have to be careful when you write something because then it becomes what happened. And so I took pains to kind of go, wait, what actually happened, as opposed to just the story said I'm going to tell, Because we tell these stories that happened. Oh yeah, and you tell stories, you've told them for decades, and yet you have what really happened. And so when I kind of looked at it and realized, and you know, I'm much more than the sum of my parts because I'm in the member of the brat packet. Actually what a you know, a wondrous kind of thing it was, And that was a wondrous. It was a seismic change in popular culture and in movie culture at that time. We forget now, but movies weren't about young people till you did, like, you know, to Animal House and you did Blue Lagoon, and that started movies to be about young people, you know what I mean. And then suddenly are little movies come on, and then the Brat pack comes along with John Hughes, where they're taking young people seriously, and Hollywood has realized, suddenly, oh my god, these kids are going five, six, seven times. Grown ups only go once. Screw that, Let's make movies for kids. And Hollywood has never recovered from that.

Writing the book about it helped me to understand it. So I wrote a book a couple of years ago about that time infe because I'd never looked at it, and I'd run from it, you know, and I just wanted to get on with my whatever, and I thought, I shaid, it's not going anywhere. Maybe you should try to look at this seminal moment in your life and actually see what went on there. And so, as you know, when you write something, and you said, it helps you understand it, and then you have to be careful when you write something because then it becomes what happened. And so I took pains to kind of go, wait, what actually happened, as opposed to just the story said I'm going to tell, Because we tell these stories that happened. Oh yeah, and you tell stories, you've told them for decades, and yet you have what really happened. And so when I kind of looked at it and realized, and you know, I'm much more than the sum of my parts because I'm in the member of the brat packet. Actually what a you know, a wondrous kind of thing it was, And that was a wondrous. It was a seismic change in popular culture and in movie culture at that time. We forget now, but movies weren't about young people till you did, like, you know, to Animal House and you did Blue Lagoon, and that started movies to be about young people, you know what I mean. And then suddenly are little movies come on, and then the Brat pack comes along with John Hughes, where they're taking young people seriously, and Hollywood has realized, suddenly, oh my god, these kids are going five, six, seven times. Grown ups only go once. Screw that, Let's make movies for kids. And Hollywood has never recovered from that.

Are you able to look back and be proud of it?

Are you able to look back and be proud of it?

Oh? I think they're awesome. I think they're fantastic. I'd have great affection for them. Now. I think some of the movies are wouldn't be made today, certainly, like you're never going to make Mannequin today.

Oh? I think they're awesome. I think they're fantastic. I'd have great affection for them. Now. I think some of the movies are wouldn't be made today, certainly, like you're never going to make Mannequin today.

You're not gonna make pretty Baby today, and.

You're not gonna make pretty Baby today, and.

Not gonna make pretty Bigy. You know, You're not going to make most of the movies. You're not going to make saying almost fired today, Emilio is a stalker and you know, and all those kinds of suff So you're not going to make any of those movies or a lot of the John Hughes movies either, because they're you know, I have they're exploitative in certain ways, but I have great affection for them now because I do think that they you know.

Not gonna make pretty Bigy. You know, You're not going to make most of the movies. You're not going to make saying almost fired today, Emilio is a stalker and you know, and all those kinds of suff So you're not going to make any of those movies or a lot of the John Hughes movies either, because they're you know, I have they're exploitative in certain ways, but I have great affection for them now because I do think that they you know.

It's a shame that it takes us this long to have affection. I don't have the same kind of affection because the thing that I never got to do was grow as a talent. And I will say that what I when I look at your films and any of the ones you just mentioned, I remember and I was this was I was there at the time. I remember watching those movies and thinking, God, those people got to actually really act, and they got to grow and they got to be directed.

It's a shame that it takes us this long to have affection. I don't have the same kind of affection because the thing that I never got to do was grow as a talent. And I will say that what I when I look at your films and any of the ones you just mentioned, I remember and I was this was I was there at the time. I remember watching those movies and thinking, God, those people got to actually really act, and they got to grow and they got to be directed.

Well, Brooke, I mean that's I was running around with a mannequin and dragging a dead body around. I don't know how much acting I was, but I think.

Well, Brooke, I mean that's I was running around with a mannequin and dragging a dead body around. I don't know how much acting I was, but I think.

That's what It's harder to do that kind of comedy. It's harder. I mean I was walking around hair on my boobs, like with a squeaky voice, not not accessing any emotion.

That's what It's harder to do that kind of comedy. It's harder. I mean I was walking around hair on my boobs, like with a squeaky voice, not not accessing any emotion.

Like yeah, I mean, you know, one of the amazing things about you is that you know you were wildly exploited in this way, and yet you just sort of have owned your life, and you know, so I thought it was in such respect for that. But you know, maybe you tell me this is a little pop psychologizing, but you know that's your thing, that's your is you, Like I didn't get a chance to go. I remember when I were acting with you, when we were on that show together, all you wanted to do was really dig into the work and like be seen as as an actor and like someone who really enjoyed the work and was interested in doing good work and stuff. And whether that wasn't asked of you or we each have our thing of what we have a lens through which we look at the world, and like when I was younger, I looked at the world I'm not smart, and so that's how I perceived other people perceived me in a certain way.

Like yeah, I mean, you know, one of the amazing things about you is that you know you were wildly exploited in this way, and yet you just sort of have owned your life, and you know, so I thought it was in such respect for that. But you know, maybe you tell me this is a little pop psychologizing, but you know that's your thing, that's your is you, Like I didn't get a chance to go. I remember when I were acting with you, when we were on that show together, all you wanted to do was really dig into the work and like be seen as as an actor and like someone who really enjoyed the work and was interested in doing good work and stuff. And whether that wasn't asked of you or we each have our thing of what we have a lens through which we look at the world, and like when I was younger, I looked at the world I'm not smart, and so that's how I perceived other people perceived me in a certain way.

Why why did you say that?

Why why did you say that?

Oh, because I was terrible at school.

Oh, because I was terrible at school.

Which which is analogous to you. I'm not smart.

Which which is analogous to you. I'm not smart.

Yes, And when you're growing up and you're in school schools for smart people, you don't do well in school, you're not smart. Obviously that's incorrect.

Yes, And when you're growing up and you're in school schools for smart people, you don't do well in school, you're not smart. Obviously that's incorrect.

But that's why you're so much smarter than ninety nine percent of the people like that.

But that's why you're so much smarter than ninety nine percent of the people like that.

Nobody, but like, I'm the same thing about you, Like you do know how to work, and you do. But because this is a perception we get early about ourselves where it's you know, body dysmorphy or whatever the world is, you know it? Or life? Yeah, you know what I mean. And I think we get in a lot of trouble when we put on those pair of glasses and apply them universally in our lives, because they don't really apply.

Nobody, but like, I'm the same thing about you, Like you do know how to work, and you do. But because this is a perception we get early about ourselves where it's you know, body dysmorphy or whatever the world is, you know it? Or life? Yeah, you know what I mean. And I think we get in a lot of trouble when we put on those pair of glasses and apply them universally in our lives, because they don't really apply.

I've recently just done Pretty Baby, the documentary. Right, I didn't produce it, I didn't direct it. I just was in it. But what's been interesting to me is I didn't know how people were going to respond to it, but people have been coming away from it with a broader understanding of actually who I am. Is there something that you wish people really heard and knew about you?

I've recently just done Pretty Baby, the documentary. Right, I didn't produce it, I didn't direct it. I just was in it. But what's been interesting to me is I didn't know how people were going to respond to it, but people have been coming away from it with a broader understanding of actually who I am. Is there something that you wish people really heard and knew about you?

Well, maybe it's just because I've I turned sixty this year, and so that's really kind of threw me for a loop for a while. I'd never blinked about my age, you know, forty fifty and over blinked in six. I was like, Wow, it's the beginning of being old, and particularly someone like who's famous for being young. Now you're like, what happened to the middle Anyway, I kind of found myself I don't really care. I don't really need you want to know anything. I want to be successful only in the sense that just for ego wise, because that feels good for eight minutes. But I don't really think of myself as even having a career in any way anymore. I just wanted things to be successful so that the next thing that I want to do i'm allowed to do more easily. I've sort of given up on perception and how I'm received.

Well, maybe it's just because I've I turned sixty this year, and so that's really kind of threw me for a loop for a while. I'd never blinked about my age, you know, forty fifty and over blinked in six. I was like, Wow, it's the beginning of being old, and particularly someone like who's famous for being young. Now you're like, what happened to the middle Anyway, I kind of found myself I don't really care. I don't really need you want to know anything. I want to be successful only in the sense that just for ego wise, because that feels good for eight minutes. But I don't really think of myself as even having a career in any way anymore. I just wanted things to be successful so that the next thing that I want to do i'm allowed to do more easily. I've sort of given up on perception and how I'm received.

Isn't that freedom, though? Like, isn't it?

Isn't that freedom, though? Like, isn't it?

Oh? It feels great, it feels I wish.

Oh? It feels great, it feels I wish.

We didn't have to get to sixty to we didn't have to but maybe that's the point of all of it.

We didn't have to get to sixty to we didn't have to but maybe that's the point of all of it.

Well, and suddenly much more spacious. It's a lot more spacious, for sure. And you know there's something about that drive and ambition younger that can be useful.

Well, and suddenly much more spacious. It's a lot more spacious, for sure. And you know there's something about that drive and ambition younger that can be useful.

But also you know you've you've done a thing that I think I did by default. I don't know if if you planned it, but the versatility of your talent. Yes you're an actor, Yes you're a director, you're a writer, but you keep adding to your list of fruition within your talent. You went to NYU, Okay, you went to study theater. You got kicked out. I don't know why. Why'd you get kicked out?

But also you know you've you've done a thing that I think I did by default. I don't know if if you planned it, but the versatility of your talent. Yes you're an actor, Yes you're a director, you're a writer, but you keep adding to your list of fruition within your talent. You went to NYU, Okay, you went to study theater. You got kicked out. I don't know why. Why'd you get kicked out?

Because I didn't go to my classes?

Because I didn't go to my classes?

You know what that it's interesting that they didn't just keep taking your tuition.

You know what that it's interesting that they didn't just keep taking your tuition.

Well they would have. After I did my first movie. They kicked me out, and I did my first movie, and then they invited me back and I could if I paid the tuition, I could use that for independent study.

Well they would have. After I did my first movie. They kicked me out, and I did my first movie, and then they invited me back and I could if I paid the tuition, I could use that for independent study.

And I said, fuck they did they give you an honorary.

And I said, fuck they did they give you an honorary.

Degree, not yet. But like you though, Brooke, all of that, all of that has come by necessity in a certain way, because I stopped being successful as an actor, you know, brat pack stuff sort of and then diminishing returns, and I had personally, you know, I drank too much. It took me a while to sort that problem out, and when I could have came out of that fog, I was then chasing like acting, and I realized, oh, this is heartbreaking. I can't be doing this. So I stumbled into travel writing. So I embraced that fully and it was a real creative rebirth for me. And then that led to books. And then when I realized, you know, you can't really make enough money travel writing, so I got to go back, Oh, well, I'll start directing. And I stumbled into directing and realized I had an aptitude for it.

Degree, not yet. But like you though, Brooke, all of that, all of that has come by necessity in a certain way, because I stopped being successful as an actor, you know, brat pack stuff sort of and then diminishing returns, and I had personally, you know, I drank too much. It took me a while to sort that problem out, and when I could have came out of that fog, I was then chasing like acting, and I realized, oh, this is heartbreaking. I can't be doing this. So I stumbled into travel writing. So I embraced that fully and it was a real creative rebirth for me. And then that led to books. And then when I realized, you know, you can't really make enough money travel writing, so I got to go back, Oh, well, I'll start directing. And I stumbled into directing and realized I had an aptitude for it.

So it's not a stumbling. And I want to kind of just stop you there for a second, because if you weren't highly intelligent, you might have gotten a job, but you wouldn't have been able to get another one and keep going with it. Right, So there's a humility that we I'm going to say, we try to have by saying, oh, it just we stumbled and we just reacted.

So it's not a stumbling. And I want to kind of just stop you there for a second, because if you weren't highly intelligent, you might have gotten a job, but you wouldn't have been able to get another one and keep going with it. Right, So there's a humility that we I'm going to say, we try to have by saying, oh, it just we stumbled and we just reacted.

Well when I say stumbled, no, you're right. There was absolute clear intent on both those things. I learned a lot from the first time when I became. When I was a young actor, I had no I just knew I wanted to do that, and I didn't know anything, and stuff happened, and it was like stuff happened to me, and then the brack pack happened to me. And so when I started writing and wanting to be a travel writer, I was very careful how I curated it and how I approached people, like no one knew I was the broadpack actor being a travel writer, because you know, I did it. Everything in that world is done by email, so I would just email people. And when when I was finally outed for being, oh, the actor, I think he's a travel writer. By then I'd already written, you use your name. Yeah, but I mean there's lots of whatever. Nobody's thinking these kind of things. But by the time I was out it, I'd already written for the New York Times and National Geographic Travel and The Atlantic and so. And I was very careful to curate to write for those outlets so that when I am outed, they can't easily dismiss me.

Well when I say stumbled, no, you're right. There was absolute clear intent on both those things. I learned a lot from the first time when I became. When I was a young actor, I had no I just knew I wanted to do that, and I didn't know anything, and stuff happened, and it was like stuff happened to me, and then the brack pack happened to me. And so when I started writing and wanting to be a travel writer, I was very careful how I curated it and how I approached people, like no one knew I was the broadpack actor being a travel writer, because you know, I did it. Everything in that world is done by email, so I would just email people. And when when I was finally outed for being, oh, the actor, I think he's a travel writer. By then I'd already written, you use your name. Yeah, but I mean there's lots of whatever. Nobody's thinking these kind of things. But by the time I was out it, I'd already written for the New York Times and National Geographic Travel and The Atlantic and so. And I was very careful to curate to write for those outlets so that when I am outed, they can't easily dismiss me.

Do you like one more than the other?

Do you like one more than the other?

Well? I had an act in about ten fifteen years when I was just on a or ten years anyway, on a show last season, and I really enjoyed acting. It was really you know, it was like breathing to me. We've been doing it since we're children, you know, So I really located myself in that. But you know, I do like sitting in a room alone. I have to say, is something about that that I really enjoy as long as I have something that's going on.

Well? I had an act in about ten fifteen years when I was just on a or ten years anyway, on a show last season, and I really enjoyed acting. It was really you know, it was like breathing to me. We've been doing it since we're children, you know, So I really located myself in that. But you know, I do like sitting in a room alone. I have to say, is something about that that I really enjoy as long as I have something that's going on.

I don't think people know that about you when I think of you, when someone says you to me, I'm like, very intellectual and serious, very analytical, but in the most beautiful way.

I don't think people know that about you when I think of you, when someone says you to me, I'm like, very intellectual and serious, very analytical, but in the most beautiful way.

Well you see me, you know. But see, that's one of the things, Brooke, because you were not seen. You're very active in your desire to see other people. And I think that's a great gift because that's all any of us really want in the world is to be seen. And you were clearly not seen for who you are, and so you do that.

Well you see me, you know. But see, that's one of the things, Brooke, because you were not seen. You're very active in your desire to see other people. And I think that's a great gift because that's all any of us really want in the world is to be seen. And you were clearly not seen for who you are, and so you do that.

Why do you think you drank so much?

Why do you think you drank so much?

Because I'm an alcoholic, you know. I mean, I don't believe alcoholism is a reaction to anything else, but I you know, I always say I drank better vodka because I was in the movies, but the movie being successful and the movies did not make me an alcoholic and being too young for success and all that crap.

Because I'm an alcoholic, you know. I mean, I don't believe alcoholism is a reaction to anything else, but I you know, I always say I drank better vodka because I was in the movies, but the movie being successful and the movies did not make me an alcoholic and being too young for success and all that crap.

What did it do though? What did you like about it?

What did it do though? What did you like about it?

It relieved my fear for a while.

It relieved my fear for a while.

And what was the fear about? Fear of what?

And what was the fear about? Fear of what?

I don't know. I was just sort of a fearful person. I was afraid of. You know, what do you got? Fear is also just sort of feeds on itself. So fear just sort of is a a thing that sort of sits right in front of something. So anything you funnel through it, it comes out with fear on it because it's sitting in front of you. You know.

I don't know. I was just sort of a fearful person. I was afraid of. You know, what do you got? Fear is also just sort of feeds on itself. So fear just sort of is a a thing that sort of sits right in front of something. So anything you funnel through it, it comes out with fear on it because it's sitting in front of you. You know.

Was that from when you were a little kid?

Was that from when you were a little kid?

Yeahah?

Yeahah?

Does it? Parents? Is it? I don't know.

Does it? Parents? Is it? I don't know.

As a parent, I don't know. I was I was terrified of my father, But was it because of him? I don't, you know, I don't know.

As a parent, I don't know. I was I was terrified of my father, But was it because of him? I don't, you know, I don't know.

I'm always interested in, like again, nature nurture, but the fear my Okay, I'll share something. My fear was obviously never being good enough. But that's because I had an in satiable mother and her what she was insatiable for and about and whatever was love. So like with my father, I know he loved me, but like I never felt good enough for him, But not because of anything he did, just because the image of who my father was to me was so much larger than life, and I loved him so much, but I just always felt something wasn't right with right enough with me. But I'm not a guy, and I'm curious about men and their relationships with their father.

I'm always interested in, like again, nature nurture, but the fear my Okay, I'll share something. My fear was obviously never being good enough. But that's because I had an in satiable mother and her what she was insatiable for and about and whatever was love. So like with my father, I know he loved me, but like I never felt good enough for him, But not because of anything he did, just because the image of who my father was to me was so much larger than life, and I loved him so much, but I just always felt something wasn't right with right enough with me. But I'm not a guy, and I'm curious about men and their relationships with their father.

Oh, I just think I was. I had a very highly oversensitized temperament, and I always felt my dad didn't like me. Actually I thought, well, I think if you were to pop psychoanalyzed it in a way, it would be my mother's showered affection on me, and my father was jealous, and so he didn't like me, and so I was then frightened of him, so fear just I don't know. He was just in a company accompanied me from very as long as I know, So I don't where it came from. I don't know. It doesn't even matter, you know why. I'm kind of relieved to see that my kids don't seem to have it. I know how that happen, and that's I'm glad for them. But although I have to say having a lot of fear in life. It's given me kind of it's my what if people put my secret superpowers? The kids say, because I can see it, because I'm so aware of it and myself. I can see it in other people operating all the time, and most of the time people are not even aware they're operating from a place of fear, and so I can see that they're operating from fear, and I go, Okay, I know something about them now that they don't might not even know. And that really helps me navigate a lot of situations. So in many ways, I'm very grateful for it.

Oh, I just think I was. I had a very highly oversensitized temperament, and I always felt my dad didn't like me. Actually I thought, well, I think if you were to pop psychoanalyzed it in a way, it would be my mother's showered affection on me, and my father was jealous, and so he didn't like me, and so I was then frightened of him, so fear just I don't know. He was just in a company accompanied me from very as long as I know, So I don't where it came from. I don't know. It doesn't even matter, you know why. I'm kind of relieved to see that my kids don't seem to have it. I know how that happen, and that's I'm glad for them. But although I have to say having a lot of fear in life. It's given me kind of it's my what if people put my secret superpowers? The kids say, because I can see it, because I'm so aware of it and myself. I can see it in other people operating all the time, and most of the time people are not even aware they're operating from a place of fear, and so I can see that they're operating from fear, and I go, Okay, I know something about them now that they don't might not even know. And that really helps me navigate a lot of situations. So in many ways, I'm very grateful for it.

Tell me a little about your new book, Walking with Sam. I find it interesting in so many ways. It's so layered and beautiful. Talk to me a little bit about the book. It's subject.

Tell me a little about your new book, Walking with Sam. I find it interesting in so many ways. It's so layered and beautiful. Talk to me a little bit about the book. It's subject.

Why it's about us walking five hundred miles along the Camino to Santiago, this old ancient pilgrimage route in Spain. And I walked it twenty five years earlier alone or alone. Yeah, it was after my early sort of success and all that, and I guess I was kind of lost without really even being aware that I was. And I heard about the Camino, I read about it, and suddenly I just said, I got to do that, and I went and I did it, and I hated it until I had like this breakdown in a field of wheak, and it was I had one of these kind of white light experiences. We're just talking about fear, and I became aware how strong fear was in my life. And it was the first time I was aware of its presence in my life. Because it had been so ever present in my life, I was afraid. I was relieved of it for this moment and I felt like myself fully for the first time. And that changed my life. And fear, of course, is very cunning. It doesn't just go way once you identify it, but at least it can never have the blind hold it had on you before that. So that changed one. So I always wanted to go back to Spain and do that walk again. And as my son was becoming a man, and I go back to go out into the world. And I also should say when I we were talking about my dad, I left home at seventeen and I never really had a relationship with him for the rest of his life until we reconciled when he was dying, which was a beautiful thing, but we didn't have any relationship, and I didn't want that with my kids.

Why it's about us walking five hundred miles along the Camino to Santiago, this old ancient pilgrimage route in Spain. And I walked it twenty five years earlier alone or alone. Yeah, it was after my early sort of success and all that, and I guess I was kind of lost without really even being aware that I was. And I heard about the Camino, I read about it, and suddenly I just said, I got to do that, and I went and I did it, and I hated it until I had like this breakdown in a field of wheak, and it was I had one of these kind of white light experiences. We're just talking about fear, and I became aware how strong fear was in my life. And it was the first time I was aware of its presence in my life. Because it had been so ever present in my life, I was afraid. I was relieved of it for this moment and I felt like myself fully for the first time. And that changed my life. And fear, of course, is very cunning. It doesn't just go way once you identify it, but at least it can never have the blind hold it had on you before that. So that changed one. So I always wanted to go back to Spain and do that walk again. And as my son was becoming a man, and I go back to go out into the world. And I also should say when I we were talking about my dad, I left home at seventeen and I never really had a relationship with him for the rest of his life until we reconciled when he was dying, which was a beautiful thing, but we didn't have any relationship, and I didn't want that with my kids.

And this is your older son.

And this is your older son.

My oldest son. Yeah, so he was nineteen at the time.

My oldest son. Yeah, so he was nineteen at the time.

Who is an actor?

Who is an actor?

Yeah, he's on a Circle Dead to me on Netflix. He's an actor, Yeah, and a lovely actor.

Yeah, he's on a Circle Dead to me on Netflix. He's an actor, Yeah, and a lovely actor.

What was his reaction to both the book and the experience?

What was his reaction to both the book and the experience?

Well, day two he said, Dad, what's the point of this fucking walk?

Well, day two he said, Dad, what's the point of this fucking walk?

And I kindly agree with him, but now I got it.

And I kindly agree with him, but now I got it.

On the last day he said, Dad, that's the only ten out of ten thing I've ever done in my life.

On the last day he said, Dad, that's the only ten out of ten thing I've ever done in my life.

What did you say to him when he asked you that question.

What did you say to him when he asked you that question.

I was smart enough not to say anything. You know, I had the ultimate luxury your parent gets with an that old child, which was time. I didn't need to be wise and have answers and be smart and be full of advice. I could just walk and listen to him, really create space for him.

I was smart enough not to say anything. You know, I had the ultimate luxury your parent gets with an that old child, which was time. I didn't need to be wise and have answers and be smart and be full of advice. I could just walk and listen to him, really create space for him.

Did you know you were going to write the book as you were walking.

Did you know you were going to write the book as you were walking.

Well, being a travel writer, you know you're always going to write about pretty much everywhere you go at at some point in some form. So I was keeping notes of the sort, and then about halfway in the walk goes for five hundred miles to the Santiago de Compostella, which is fifty miles from the sea, and that's where the pilgrimage ends. But a lot of people continue walking those last fifty miles to the ocean. They just feel compelled to make that walk. I did not, and I had no desire to do that either time. And Sam said, I'm the place is called finished theare. So Sam said he was going to walk to finishtare. He just wanted to keep going. It was like he was, you know, just go beyond. So the notion of him going beyond my accomplishments in the metaphor, the communal abound. Everything on the communal to Santiago's a metaphor. So the idea that he was going to go beyond my accomplishments, which is what is hardwired in every parent, is that our children go beyond us, right, So, and he was going to go beyond me. I just thought, oh my god, there's a book in there.

Well, being a travel writer, you know you're always going to write about pretty much everywhere you go at at some point in some form. So I was keeping notes of the sort, and then about halfway in the walk goes for five hundred miles to the Santiago de Compostella, which is fifty miles from the sea, and that's where the pilgrimage ends. But a lot of people continue walking those last fifty miles to the ocean. They just feel compelled to make that walk. I did not, and I had no desire to do that either time. And Sam said, I'm the place is called finished theare. So Sam said he was going to walk to finishtare. He just wanted to keep going. It was like he was, you know, just go beyond. So the notion of him going beyond my accomplishments in the metaphor, the communal abound. Everything on the communal to Santiago's a metaphor. So the idea that he was going to go beyond my accomplishments, which is what is hardwired in every parent, is that our children go beyond us, right, So, and he was going to go beyond me. I just thought, oh my god, there's a book in there.

Were you only trying because you said I didn't want to have the same relationship with my son my father? Was there anything else that you any other expectations you possibly put onto doing no walk.

Were you only trying because you said I didn't want to have the same relationship with my son my father? Was there anything else that you any other expectations you possibly put onto doing no walk.

No, I just want I knew, having had experience with it, having walked it and had a life changing experience. I knew if you just keep them walking and keep walking beside him, what needs to happen will happen, you know. So I did not have any expectations of wanting the relationship to become this. All I wanted was for us to see each other like we were talking about, as adults and as human beings, as opposed to parent child dynamic.

No, I just want I knew, having had experience with it, having walked it and had a life changing experience. I knew if you just keep them walking and keep walking beside him, what needs to happen will happen, you know. So I did not have any expectations of wanting the relationship to become this. All I wanted was for us to see each other like we were talking about, as adults and as human beings, as opposed to parent child dynamic.

Where did this come in his career?

Where did this come in his career?

Yeah, he'd been I think he had done two seasons of dead time me by that before the third one, and I think it's solidified in him a desire to act.

Yeah, he'd been I think he had done two seasons of dead time me by that before the third one, and I think it's solidified in him a desire to act.

Did you have reservations about that?

Did you have reservations about that?

Were you him acting? Yeah? My daughter has also been on Broadway number of times, So I like, the last thing you ever want is your kids to become an actor if you're an actor, right at all?

Were you him acting? Yeah? My daughter has also been on Broadway number of times, So I like, the last thing you ever want is your kids to become an actor if you're an actor, right at all?

Or how about a model at all? I trumped you with that one even worse?

Or how about a model at all? I trumped you with that one even worse?

Yeah, exactly so. But you know, acting saved my life when I was fifteen, So who am I to say? So? You know, if you're a teenager, you have to find something.

Yeah, exactly so. But you know, acting saved my life when I was fifteen, So who am I to say? So? You know, if you're a teenager, you have to find something.

Are you going to take a trip with any of your other children.

Are you going to take a trip with any of your other children.

Yeah. I just came back from Botswana with my nine year old Rowan. I was doing a story for a magazine and so we went on a safari type thing together. So that was kind of great. Although we were looking at the lions one day, you know, you drive up in the jeep and you're looking at these lines and I'm like, oh my god, amazing and these and then he just leans on his dad, I got a poop, Like Okay, so I go, can we pull away from the lines a little bit? So we go and you know, I go, or we got to dig a hole. You're going to dig a hole? He said, what go? Yeah, I got to dig a hole and poop the ground. And so any way we do, and like that night we come back and he's facetiming his mom and she's like, how are the lions and the elephants? And he's like, mom, I pop around. You know, so this is this is the big deal.

Yeah. I just came back from Botswana with my nine year old Rowan. I was doing a story for a magazine and so we went on a safari type thing together. So that was kind of great. Although we were looking at the lions one day, you know, you drive up in the jeep and you're looking at these lines and I'm like, oh my god, amazing and these and then he just leans on his dad, I got a poop, Like Okay, so I go, can we pull away from the lines a little bit? So we go and you know, I go, or we got to dig a hole. You're going to dig a hole? He said, what go? Yeah, I got to dig a hole and poop the ground. And so any way we do, and like that night we come back and he's facetiming his mom and she's like, how are the lions and the elephants? And he's like, mom, I pop around. You know, so this is this is the big deal.

Do you have a little bag with the paper? Like, because you got to put the paper in a bag unless it's biodegradable, which you've got to hope that.

Do you have a little bag with the paper? Like, because you got to put the paper in a bag unless it's biodegradable, which you've got to hope that.

We just went home and took a. We just went home and took a shower.

We just went home and took a. We just went home and took a shower.

I wanted to go deep on the poop. When I pitched this show see where I hired, I called it now What because I said, listen, every single person has now what moments in their life where they're all of a sudden, like, fuck, does anyone now what moments stick out in your life?

I wanted to go deep on the poop. When I pitched this show see where I hired, I called it now What because I said, listen, every single person has now what moments in their life where they're all of a sudden, like, fuck, does anyone now what moments stick out in your life?

She says? Every morning?

She says? Every morning?

Now what do I do? I've just wait awakened.

Now what do I do? I've just wait awakened.

Yeah, no, I mean I kind of you know that I feel I've always I felt like that all the time my whole life, you know what I mean. That's one of the things that comes to being a freelancer too. You know, I've had You've had, you know, hundreds of jobs. They're like, okay, now what now? What do we do? And although every now what I've ever had has always spurred me to something more interesting, you know, it's always a frightened because I'm so used to fear. I think that now what is always filled with dread and fear, and so I've just come to be so used to that feeling that I don't mind it that much because it's just this normal state, I mean, and it has always led to like I say, oh, I can't do that anymore. Okay, Now what what do I do now? Okay? I became a traveler and okay that doesn't pay enough. Okay, now what Okay, So I guess I'll become direct Okay, that's not happening now, Okay, I guess I'm going to make this documentary because okay, and you know, you just sort of and all those obstacles and things that precede and now what are you know, always seen as an oh shit, but then they you look back and go, oh, thank god exactly.

Yeah, no, I mean I kind of you know that I feel I've always I felt like that all the time my whole life, you know what I mean. That's one of the things that comes to being a freelancer too. You know, I've had You've had, you know, hundreds of jobs. They're like, okay, now what now? What do we do? And although every now what I've ever had has always spurred me to something more interesting, you know, it's always a frightened because I'm so used to fear. I think that now what is always filled with dread and fear, and so I've just come to be so used to that feeling that I don't mind it that much because it's just this normal state, I mean, and it has always led to like I say, oh, I can't do that anymore. Okay, Now what what do I do now? Okay? I became a traveler and okay that doesn't pay enough. Okay, now what Okay, So I guess I'll become direct Okay, that's not happening now, Okay, I guess I'm going to make this documentary because okay, and you know, you just sort of and all those obstacles and things that precede and now what are you know, always seen as an oh shit, but then they you look back and go, oh, thank god exactly.

I mean, you're such an inspiration on so many levels, and I also feel akin to you just because that's the way I've lived my life. You know that the documentary is it finished? Is it?

I mean, you're such an inspiration on so many levels, and I also feel akin to you just because that's the way I've lived my life. You know that the documentary is it finished? Is it?

You know? I'm in the process of sort of finishing it, in the process of finishing it, so hopefully in the fall it'll come out.

You know? I'm in the process of sort of finishing it, in the process of finishing it, so hopefully in the fall it'll come out.

Was there anything that surprised you about because you recently just talked to me, By the way, I was supposed to have lunch with her today and you fucked that up because I can't. I can't. I can't be sitting on a couch with Ali and de me, which is where I was invited. Is there anything about those conversations that.

Was there anything that surprised you about because you recently just talked to me, By the way, I was supposed to have lunch with her today and you fucked that up because I can't. I can't. I can't be sitting on a couch with Ali and de me, which is where I was invited. Is there anything about those conversations that.

Would be much that would have been much better?

Would be much that would have been much better?

We should have done the podcast from Allie's couch? Are you so? Where were you're talking?

We should have done the podcast from Allie's couch? Are you so? Where were you're talking?

All of I talked to most of them, and well, I've talked to all of the most of them have participated a couple as still being a little you know, cagey about it.

All of I talked to most of them, and well, I've talked to all of the most of them have participated a couple as still being a little you know, cagey about it.

But anything that surprised you.

But anything that surprised you.

It surprised me how much affection we all had for each other because we didn't back in the day. You know, we're young and scared and whatever was going on. But I mean, just how much like I hadn't seen Robin thirty thirty five years, same with Amelia, and just like how much affection I had for him and four more then our youth and like to just sort of an understanding that we have. I don't know them at all, and yet I know them deeply because we both we all went through kind of a very similar thing. So yeah, that was a really lovely feeling to sort of just connect with it and then connect with them connected me to my own youth, and I had count we had so much more affection for my youth, which led me to then have more affection for myself at that time in those movies and all that. So it's been very lovely experience.

It surprised me how much affection we all had for each other because we didn't back in the day. You know, we're young and scared and whatever was going on. But I mean, just how much like I hadn't seen Robin thirty thirty five years, same with Amelia, and just like how much affection I had for him and four more then our youth and like to just sort of an understanding that we have. I don't know them at all, and yet I know them deeply because we both we all went through kind of a very similar thing. So yeah, that was a really lovely feeling to sort of just connect with it and then connect with them connected me to my own youth, and I had count we had so much more affection for my youth, which led me to then have more affection for myself at that time in those movies and all that. So it's been very lovely experience.

One last question, what is your proudest moment from the walk with your son and something that you'll always remember.

One last question, what is your proudest moment from the walk with your son and something that you'll always remember.

Well, when he was marching to finish stare after at the end there, I took a taxi out to meet him. And it's a little it's a little daunting to realize you can take cover a half hour in a car what it took you through days the walk. But I went out to meet him and just as he came marching up the hill with his shirt off, on his arms pumping and just sweat ford and the grin on his face, to just stand there and receive him, you know, and that he allowed me to receive him. And that was a beautiful moment.

Well, when he was marching to finish stare after at the end there, I took a taxi out to meet him. And it's a little it's a little daunting to realize you can take cover a half hour in a car what it took you through days the walk. But I went out to meet him and just as he came marching up the hill with his shirt off, on his arms pumping and just sweat ford and the grin on his face, to just stand there and receive him, you know, and that he allowed me to receive him. And that was a beautiful moment.

That was the brilliant Andrew McCarthy. If you want to hear more about his incredible trip with a son, go pick up a copy of his new memoir Walking with Sam. That's it for us today, Talk to you next week.

That was the brilliant Andrew McCarthy. If you want to hear more about his incredible trip with a son, go pick up a copy of his new memoir Walking with Sam. That's it for us today, Talk to you next week.

Now.

Now.

What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by Darby Masters and Abu zafar Our. Executive producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Baheed Fraser.

What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research and editing by Darby Masters and Abu zafar Our. Executive producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Baheed Fraser.