You're listening to a Mom and Me a podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

You're listening to a Mom and Me a podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

So let me get this straight. You, as a very privileged person who have got two healthy children as far as you know, want me, someone who is experiencing trauma and pain to put a trigger warning on my child's life to make you feel more comfortable.

So let me get this straight. You, as a very privileged person who have got two healthy children as far as you know, want me, someone who is experiencing trauma and pain to put a trigger warning on my child's life to make you feel more comfortable.

From I'm Meya Friedman. And you're listening to No Filter at a recent performance of Macbeth by a Melbourne theater company. Recently, the program included a content warning. It's something that's become quite common, not just in the theater, but in podcasts, on websites and blogs on social media, and even in books. I'm sure you've seen them. They're sometimes called trigger warnings, and the idea behind them is that before you consume a piece of content, you know what you're getting in case the subject matter is upsetting to you, so that way you can prepare yourself somehow or avoid it altogether. I'll read you the content warning for this Macbeth performance. It's quite long, so i'll only read part of it. It said this production contains coarse language explicit depiction of violence and blood, sexual references, discussion of warfare, discussion of infanticide, misogyny, occasional drinking and smoking, references to death or dying, references to mental illness, and depictions of ableism, occasional use of prop weapons, loud and dynamic sound and smoke effects. That's just the start, though. It actually goes on for about another five hundred words or so, and under each of those topics it lists a lot of detail about how they're used in the performance. For example, it lists the number of times certain swear words are used. It notes that there are themes of misogyny and ableism, and under each of those examples it gets very specific. For example, under the subheading of infanticide, it says, in the closing scenes of the work, Macduff accuses Lady Macbeth of ordering the murder of Lady Macduff's infant. This case of infanticide is only spoken about, not enacted on stage. Good to know. It's not just this theater company, though, and I'm not naming them because I don't want anyone to be attacking them or piling onto them. You might have noticed something called trigger creep. It's a proliferation of warnings and an expansion of those warnings about all sorts of things that are popping up in all sorts of places. In the past few months, I've been keeping some notes, and I've seen trigger warnings for some of the following things. Anxiety, depression, suicide, blood, hospitals, self harm, sexual abuse, cancer, domestic violence, exercise, grief, racism, mental health, war, eating disorders, transphobia, homophobia, alcohol, poverty, ableism, childlessness, emotional abuse, divorce, diet culture, miscarriage, self harm, infertility, car accidents, meat, sexist language, menstruation, and menopause. And that's an exhausting list, but it's by no means exhaustive. There were many other things as well. And look, it would be really easy to have a rant at this point and talk about the world going mad and people being snowflakes. But that's not what No Filter is about. It's not a runty show, and I'm not a rounty person. No Filter is fundamentally a show about people and their stories, and many of those stories cover those kinds of topics because No Filter is about what it means to be human. And I think that everybody involved in this debate really does come from a good place, I do. Those in favor of content warnings insist that it's basic decency to warn people before they hear or read something that might upset them, which sounds very reasonable. Those against trigger warnings insist that it is a ridiculous form of pandering and that it's actually counter productive, which is another interesting perspective and probably the one that I share. But what does the science say? It doesn't matter what I think. What are medical professionals who work with traumatized people advise? What a traumatized people themselves actually say? Are trigger warnings actually helpful? Well, spoiler no, as it turns out, But we will get to that. What I want to explore today is what's going on? Why do we suddenly feel that we need to warn people about everything? And then you can decide for yourself whether they're a good idea or not. This is a special episode of No Filter because today I'm bringing you two guests. In a little bit you're going to meet Victoria Bridgeland. She's a researcher here in Australia who has actually done the definitive global study on trigger warnings and what she found may surprise you, but First, you're going to meet Rachel Cassella. You may remember Rachel if you are a p particular longtime listener of No Filter. She's been on a previous episode of No Filter, and she's written quite a lot on Muma Maya and she's also a big advocate on social media. She's amazing. She's a detective sergeant in the AFP, and she's a fearless advocate for the memory of her little girl, Mackenzie. And I don't want to say more now because nobody can talk about McKenzie like Rachel does. And importantly, there is no trigger warning or content warning on what you're about to hear, and that's very deliberate. Here's Rachel Cassella. Rach, I want to start by asking you about McKenzie. Tell me about her.

From I'm Meya Friedman. And you're listening to No Filter at a recent performance of Macbeth by a Melbourne theater company. Recently, the program included a content warning. It's something that's become quite common, not just in the theater, but in podcasts, on websites and blogs on social media, and even in books. I'm sure you've seen them. They're sometimes called trigger warnings, and the idea behind them is that before you consume a piece of content, you know what you're getting in case the subject matter is upsetting to you, so that way you can prepare yourself somehow or avoid it altogether. I'll read you the content warning for this Macbeth performance. It's quite long, so i'll only read part of it. It said this production contains coarse language explicit depiction of violence and blood, sexual references, discussion of warfare, discussion of infanticide, misogyny, occasional drinking and smoking, references to death or dying, references to mental illness, and depictions of ableism, occasional use of prop weapons, loud and dynamic sound and smoke effects. That's just the start, though. It actually goes on for about another five hundred words or so, and under each of those topics it lists a lot of detail about how they're used in the performance. For example, it lists the number of times certain swear words are used. It notes that there are themes of misogyny and ableism, and under each of those examples it gets very specific. For example, under the subheading of infanticide, it says, in the closing scenes of the work, Macduff accuses Lady Macbeth of ordering the murder of Lady Macduff's infant. This case of infanticide is only spoken about, not enacted on stage. Good to know. It's not just this theater company, though, and I'm not naming them because I don't want anyone to be attacking them or piling onto them. You might have noticed something called trigger creep. It's a proliferation of warnings and an expansion of those warnings about all sorts of things that are popping up in all sorts of places. In the past few months, I've been keeping some notes, and I've seen trigger warnings for some of the following things. Anxiety, depression, suicide, blood, hospitals, self harm, sexual abuse, cancer, domestic violence, exercise, grief, racism, mental health, war, eating disorders, transphobia, homophobia, alcohol, poverty, ableism, childlessness, emotional abuse, divorce, diet culture, miscarriage, self harm, infertility, car accidents, meat, sexist language, menstruation, and menopause. And that's an exhausting list, but it's by no means exhaustive. There were many other things as well. And look, it would be really easy to have a rant at this point and talk about the world going mad and people being snowflakes. But that's not what No Filter is about. It's not a runty show, and I'm not a rounty person. No Filter is fundamentally a show about people and their stories, and many of those stories cover those kinds of topics because No Filter is about what it means to be human. And I think that everybody involved in this debate really does come from a good place, I do. Those in favor of content warnings insist that it's basic decency to warn people before they hear or read something that might upset them, which sounds very reasonable. Those against trigger warnings insist that it is a ridiculous form of pandering and that it's actually counter productive, which is another interesting perspective and probably the one that I share. But what does the science say? It doesn't matter what I think. What are medical professionals who work with traumatized people advise? What a traumatized people themselves actually say? Are trigger warnings actually helpful? Well, spoiler no, as it turns out, But we will get to that. What I want to explore today is what's going on? Why do we suddenly feel that we need to warn people about everything? And then you can decide for yourself whether they're a good idea or not. This is a special episode of No Filter because today I'm bringing you two guests. In a little bit you're going to meet Victoria Bridgeland. She's a researcher here in Australia who has actually done the definitive global study on trigger warnings and what she found may surprise you, but First, you're going to meet Rachel Cassella. You may remember Rachel if you are a p particular longtime listener of No Filter. She's been on a previous episode of No Filter, and she's written quite a lot on Muma Maya and she's also a big advocate on social media. She's amazing. She's a detective sergeant in the AFP, and she's a fearless advocate for the memory of her little girl, Mackenzie. And I don't want to say more now because nobody can talk about McKenzie like Rachel does. And importantly, there is no trigger warning or content warning on what you're about to hear, and that's very deliberate. Here's Rachel Cassella. Rach, I want to start by asking you about McKenzie. Tell me about her.

The love of my life, which now I feel guilty about seeing because you know, I've got other children, but she just changed everything for me. McKenzie's my first born. I did have pregnancies before her, but she was my first born, little girl. She was born eleventh of March twenty seventeen and she was just magic, pure perfection.

The love of my life, which now I feel guilty about seeing because you know, I've got other children, but she just changed everything for me. McKenzie's my first born. I did have pregnancies before her, but she was my first born, little girl. She was born eleventh of March twenty seventeen and she was just magic, pure perfection.

Did you always know you wanted to be a mum?

Did you always know you wanted to be a mum?

Yeah, it's interesting. I was listening to your episode about people not knowing, and I've always thought that would be sort of the hardest part is in the space of not knowing, because I've always known deepen my soul and that puzzle piece when she arrived just clicked into place.

Yeah, it's interesting. I was listening to your episode about people not knowing, and I've always thought that would be sort of the hardest part is in the space of not knowing, because I've always known deepen my soul and that puzzle piece when she arrived just clicked into place.

Was it hard to get pregnant with her.

Was it hard to get pregnant with her.

No, it took a couple of months, but when I actually knew what my ovulation window is, because I think we spent so much time in schools turning to lessons about how not to get pregnant that a lot of people, including me, didn't actually know my fertile window or my ovulation day. So once we got that, we did have a miscarriage before McKenzie at six and a half weeks, which was devastating at the time, but unfortunately that's now been buried for one of a better term under a lot of other trauma that's piled on top of it, because when Mackenzie was ten weeks old, she was diagnosed with a terminal condition, a genetic terminal conditioner called spinal muscular atrophy. We lost her when she was seven months and eleven days old.

No, it took a couple of months, but when I actually knew what my ovulation window is, because I think we spent so much time in schools turning to lessons about how not to get pregnant that a lot of people, including me, didn't actually know my fertile window or my ovulation day. So once we got that, we did have a miscarriage before McKenzie at six and a half weeks, which was devastating at the time, but unfortunately that's now been buried for one of a better term under a lot of other trauma that's piled on top of it, because when Mackenzie was ten weeks old, she was diagnosed with a terminal condition, a genetic terminal conditioner called spinal muscular atrophy. We lost her when she was seven months and eleven days old.

Those first ten weeks before you knew what were.

Those first ten weeks before you knew what were.

They like like I had one lolotto. I literally remember strutting down the street like I had this. I don't know, A new world had been open to me. I felt like I was getting beautiful attention, My baby was getting beautiful attention. I felt special. This just love. Yeah, it was just pure magic.

They like like I had one lolotto. I literally remember strutting down the street like I had this. I don't know, A new world had been open to me. I felt like I was getting beautiful attention, My baby was getting beautiful attention. I felt special. This just love. Yeah, it was just pure magic.

How was she diagnosed? Because there were no genetic tests back then, you and your husband were both carriers of a genetic condition that you had not been told about or tested for. How did you find out?

How was she diagnosed? Because there were no genetic tests back then, you and your husband were both carriers of a genetic condition that you had not been told about or tested for. How did you find out?

Very quickly, very abruptly. She had a lactation consultant appointment. They said that she wasn't moving the way that she should. I quickly rushed her to a local GP who very scarily sort of said, you need to go to see a pediatrician. Immediately got into a pediatrician appointment two days later, and within five minutes of being a that appointment, he diagnosed her and said it was terminal. So it went from thinking that I was on cloud nine to just wondering how I was supposed to actually survive to the next day. How did he deliver that news really abruptly? I would say that there's no good way to say that news. But I think there's a better way to say that news. Our later interactions with who would become McKenzie's neurologists were much more pleasant, despite the situation. But he just said, I'm pretty sure it's spinne, a muscular atrophy, and we went, well, what is that? And he said it's terminal. I froze and shut down initially, and then after a couple of minutes, I started like sort of getting really upset and he told me to calm down, missy, and that's just burnt in my head, all right. We were made to pay a big bill as we were leaving his office, and we left back home. It wasn't until later that we sort of knew we should have been taken straight down to Sydney Children's Hospital to meet with the neurologists, to not have been left to leave that appointment that way.

Very quickly, very abruptly. She had a lactation consultant appointment. They said that she wasn't moving the way that she should. I quickly rushed her to a local GP who very scarily sort of said, you need to go to see a pediatrician. Immediately got into a pediatrician appointment two days later, and within five minutes of being a that appointment, he diagnosed her and said it was terminal. So it went from thinking that I was on cloud nine to just wondering how I was supposed to actually survive to the next day. How did he deliver that news really abruptly? I would say that there's no good way to say that news. But I think there's a better way to say that news. Our later interactions with who would become McKenzie's neurologists were much more pleasant, despite the situation. But he just said, I'm pretty sure it's spinne, a muscular atrophy, and we went, well, what is that? And he said it's terminal. I froze and shut down initially, and then after a couple of minutes, I started like sort of getting really upset and he told me to calm down, missy, and that's just burnt in my head, all right. We were made to pay a big bill as we were leaving his office, and we left back home. It wasn't until later that we sort of knew we should have been taken straight down to Sydney Children's Hospital to meet with the neurologists, to not have been left to leave that appointment that way.

Was anyone able to tell you what the future held for McKenzie.

Was anyone able to tell you what the future held for McKenzie.

The neurologist was able to talk to us. We had the first initial discussion as to whether to put her on an experimental trial drug, and then we were told, once we made the decision, that that was not the right way for us and for her, based on a whole number of levels. We were told she would likely either get a cold and go in and out of hospital for a lot of her life until she just got so weak she couldn't fight it. Or we got told that we would wake up one morning and she would just die in her bascinet when we looked in there.

The neurologist was able to talk to us. We had the first initial discussion as to whether to put her on an experimental trial drug, and then we were told, once we made the decision, that that was not the right way for us and for her, based on a whole number of levels. We were told she would likely either get a cold and go in and out of hospital for a lot of her life until she just got so weak she couldn't fight it. Or we got told that we would wake up one morning and she would just die in her bascinet when we looked in there.

How long did you have with her?

How long did you have with her?

So we had seven months and eleven days, I mean obviously a near a few months after her diagnosis.

So we had seven months and eleven days, I mean obviously a near a few months after her diagnosis.

Yeah, so, Rach, I can't even begin. And now everyone says to you, I know, how do you get out of bed? How do you do it? How do you live? Do you have an answer to that?

Yeah, so, Rach, I can't even begin. And now everyone says to you, I know, how do you get out of bed? How do you do it? How do you live? Do you have an answer to that?

You've got no choice? I mean, I suppose you do have a choice. There are some people who don't come through it, and they do take their own life. There were certainly times where I wished myself to not be here. After she was diagnosed, we knew that we had to give her everything. So she was our reason of continuing and getting out of bed every day until she passed away. And then after that all of the days sort of become a blur of pain, and then it became what are we going to do for her to celebrate her life? To help others not go through the same thing. Then it was how we're going to get her siblings, and so there was always something to fight for, and I put everything I had into those Whether that was healthy always, I don't know, but it was my way of coping.

You've got no choice? I mean, I suppose you do have a choice. There are some people who don't come through it, and they do take their own life. There were certainly times where I wished myself to not be here. After she was diagnosed, we knew that we had to give her everything. So she was our reason of continuing and getting out of bed every day until she passed away. And then after that all of the days sort of become a blur of pain, and then it became what are we going to do for her to celebrate her life? To help others not go through the same thing. Then it was how we're going to get her siblings, and so there was always something to fight for, and I put everything I had into those Whether that was healthy always, I don't know, but it was my way of coping.

In terms of trauma, it's hard to think of something more traumatic and ongoing than what you experienced. Are there certain things that trigger a response in your body, certain things that abruptly distress you?

In terms of trauma, it's hard to think of something more traumatic and ongoing than what you experienced. Are there certain things that trigger a response in your body, certain things that abruptly distress you?

Yes, I mean there's some kind of obvious ones. I don't think when it comes to triggers, they're not usually obvious for people, even though society wants to assume that they are. They're not. They're very specific and personalized. I mean, my most generic, I suppose, was the sound of ambulances because McKenzie stopped breathing at home in my arms, and we rush our lights and sirens in an ambulance to Sidney Children's Hospital and I just under in my lap and I was just singing Twinkle Twinkle Star in her ear as we drove. And so the sound of ambulances it's not as prevalent a trigger anymore because I have been exposed to it. You don't get a warning the ambulances are around. I still have a little bit of a because I know that on the end of that ambulance is a family like mine. But my triggers are for a while, obviously it was pregnancy announcements. I still get triggered by large families. She is strange. I get really triggered by positive thinking or magical thinking or manifestation. I had a trigger the other day, which is quite strange by Courtney Kardashian.

Yes, I mean there's some kind of obvious ones. I don't think when it comes to triggers, they're not usually obvious for people, even though society wants to assume that they are. They're not. They're very specific and personalized. I mean, my most generic, I suppose, was the sound of ambulances because McKenzie stopped breathing at home in my arms, and we rush our lights and sirens in an ambulance to Sidney Children's Hospital and I just under in my lap and I was just singing Twinkle Twinkle Star in her ear as we drove. And so the sound of ambulances it's not as prevalent a trigger anymore because I have been exposed to it. You don't get a warning the ambulances are around. I still have a little bit of a because I know that on the end of that ambulance is a family like mine. But my triggers are for a while, obviously it was pregnancy announcements. I still get triggered by large families. She is strange. I get really triggered by positive thinking or magical thinking or manifestation. I had a trigger the other day, which is quite strange by Courtney Kardashian.

What did she do?

What did she do?

So she had her recent son had surgery in utero, and the conversation with her was it was scary, but I knew that if I just thought positively and if I prayed to God, then everything would be okay. And once I started thinking positively, the lung stopped filling up with fluids. So that's really triggering for a lot of people, especially in the baby loss community, because it's like or any type of brief or losses like I did positive thinking. I did everything you could possibly imagine for McKenzie to wish and pray and positively make her better. But then I did nine rounds of IVF. I lost another two babies at sixteen weeks pregnant, that I had to walk into the hospital and say goodbye to And I did everything. I have done, soul work, inesiology, I have done negative thinking in the hope that it would stop me from falling. So far, I've written lists, I've done research. There is not anything that I haven't done. And to hear someone say, well, I prayed right or I did the right positive thinking, and that's what happens, like, I understand the space for it, but I find it really triggering.

So she had her recent son had surgery in utero, and the conversation with her was it was scary, but I knew that if I just thought positively and if I prayed to God, then everything would be okay. And once I started thinking positively, the lung stopped filling up with fluids. So that's really triggering for a lot of people, especially in the baby loss community, because it's like or any type of brief or losses like I did positive thinking. I did everything you could possibly imagine for McKenzie to wish and pray and positively make her better. But then I did nine rounds of IVF. I lost another two babies at sixteen weeks pregnant, that I had to walk into the hospital and say goodbye to And I did everything. I have done, soul work, inesiology, I have done negative thinking in the hope that it would stop me from falling. So far, I've written lists, I've done research. There is not anything that I haven't done. And to hear someone say, well, I prayed right or I did the right positive thinking, and that's what happens, like, I understand the space for it, but I find it really triggering.

When you say triggering, can you explain what happens in your body and in your mind?

When you say triggering, can you explain what happens in your body and in your mind?

My heart starts racing, I get really sweaty hands. My brain feels like it's a tornado. I can't catch my thought. It just goes around and around, and then the conversation that I have in my head won't stop for hours.

My heart starts racing, I get really sweaty hands. My brain feels like it's a tornado. I can't catch my thought. It just goes around and around, and then the conversation that I have in my head won't stop for hours.

After the break. Why Rachel, who gets triggered all the time, still doesn't want trigger warnings? So what have you learned is the best way to cope or a way to cope? How do you cope with that? Because obviously you want to avoid those triggers, but how do you.

After the break. Why Rachel, who gets triggered all the time, still doesn't want trigger warnings? So what have you learned is the best way to cope or a way to cope? How do you cope with that? Because obviously you want to avoid those triggers, but how do you.

Well, I don't avoid the triggers because they're everywhere, you know, hearing about children who have passed away, or any type of grief that doesn't trigger me. It makes me feel comforted in some ways, and that there are other people who are out there who know how I feel. It makes me sad that someone else knows that pain. Usually, if it's someone on Instagram, for instance, I will usually write to them in their DMS and say that I'm here if they are new to this world of grief. But I don't avoid them because the things that trigger me are not things that come with trigger warnings. Sometimes I'll read it and I will let my body go through what it needs to go through because it's unavoidable. Sometimes I will close an article or close something, but I know that that means that that's something that I need to work on. A trigger is obviously it's like a little warning sign of Okay, there's something that's agitated there. I'm probably going to have to work on that.

Well, I don't avoid the triggers because they're everywhere, you know, hearing about children who have passed away, or any type of grief that doesn't trigger me. It makes me feel comforted in some ways, and that there are other people who are out there who know how I feel. It makes me sad that someone else knows that pain. Usually, if it's someone on Instagram, for instance, I will usually write to them in their DMS and say that I'm here if they are new to this world of grief. But I don't avoid them because the things that trigger me are not things that come with trigger warnings. Sometimes I'll read it and I will let my body go through what it needs to go through because it's unavoidable. Sometimes I will close an article or close something, but I know that that means that that's something that I need to work on. A trigger is obviously it's like a little warning sign of Okay, there's something that's agitated there. I'm probably going to have to work on that.

You wrote a fantastic piece first on your Instagram? What led to that post on your Instagram?

You wrote a fantastic piece first on your Instagram? What led to that post on your Instagram?

So my Instagram is I created that space as a way of sharing Mackenzie. I had no idea that it was going to turn into the space that it is now, but I have been trying so hard for it to still remain in my space. It's my space, whether people want to follow me or not. A lot of the people who follow me have experienced some kinds of child loss or loss, but I'm also really amazed that there's also a lot of people who have an experienced loss and they're just here to learn, which I love. I have a lot of people who reach out to me and say, my friend just had a stillborn and thanks to you, I knew the right thing or the wrong thing to say, so that is amazing. But occasionally someone will come across my page, as they do on the internet, and will have an opinion, and most of the time I can block it out. But I remember I got contacted by someone who Instagram had fed me to her as a suggested page. She was pregnant with her second, and she reached out to me to say, you should put a trigger warning on your page. And I engaged in conversation with her and I said, can you explain to me why you think that, And she said, I'm pregnant with my second and hearing about the possibility or your life makes me stressed. And I'm like, so, let me get this straight. You, as a very privileged person who have got two healthy children as far as you know, want me, someone who is experiencing trauma and pain, to put a trigger warning on my child's life to make you feel more comfortable. And that's what kicked off me writing that post.

So my Instagram is I created that space as a way of sharing Mackenzie. I had no idea that it was going to turn into the space that it is now, but I have been trying so hard for it to still remain in my space. It's my space, whether people want to follow me or not. A lot of the people who follow me have experienced some kinds of child loss or loss, but I'm also really amazed that there's also a lot of people who have an experienced loss and they're just here to learn, which I love. I have a lot of people who reach out to me and say, my friend just had a stillborn and thanks to you, I knew the right thing or the wrong thing to say, so that is amazing. But occasionally someone will come across my page, as they do on the internet, and will have an opinion, and most of the time I can block it out. But I remember I got contacted by someone who Instagram had fed me to her as a suggested page. She was pregnant with her second, and she reached out to me to say, you should put a trigger warning on your page. And I engaged in conversation with her and I said, can you explain to me why you think that, And she said, I'm pregnant with my second and hearing about the possibility or your life makes me stressed. And I'm like, so, let me get this straight. You, as a very privileged person who have got two healthy children as far as you know, want me, someone who is experiencing trauma and pain, to put a trigger warning on my child's life to make you feel more comfortable. And that's what kicked off me writing that post.

It's interesting your choice of words there. You say, put a trigger warning on my child's life. That's exactly what it is, isn't it. It's saying this might be so upsetting to you, who never knew McKenzie and who isn't her mother or her father, that I need to put your feelings before my own and before honoring my daughter.

It's interesting your choice of words there. You say, put a trigger warning on my child's life. That's exactly what it is, isn't it. It's saying this might be so upsetting to you, who never knew McKenzie and who isn't her mother or her father, that I need to put your feelings before my own and before honoring my daughter.

It's a way for people to curate their life because I would say that ninety ninety percent of the time the people who want the trigger warning haven't experienced that trauma, because most of the people, at least in the child lost community, do not want trigger warnings on their children. We didn't get a warning that this was going to happen to us, and we want to share our child and to say put a trigger warning, it's like you're telling me that my life is so bad and it makes you uncomfortable that this exists in the world. So you want to cover me up so you can curate your world on what's positive in your mind, whereas I see my daughter as positive, Like, yes, extreme pain, but the gifts that she has given me are endless. She's changed me for the better.

It's a way for people to curate their life because I would say that ninety ninety percent of the time the people who want the trigger warning haven't experienced that trauma, because most of the people, at least in the child lost community, do not want trigger warnings on their children. We didn't get a warning that this was going to happen to us, and we want to share our child and to say put a trigger warning, it's like you're telling me that my life is so bad and it makes you uncomfortable that this exists in the world. So you want to cover me up so you can curate your world on what's positive in your mind, whereas I see my daughter as positive, Like, yes, extreme pain, but the gifts that she has given me are endless. She's changed me for the better.

You said something really interesting in the piece you wrote about this for Mamma Maya. You said, trigger warnings aren't for people who've experienced things. They're for people who are scared of experiencing those things. Because they're so often claimed to be protective of the people who have experienced trauma, and maybe in some cases they are. Maybe there are some people who don't want to read about a particular traumatic experience that they've gone through, but that's pretty subjective, isn't it.

You said something really interesting in the piece you wrote about this for Mamma Maya. You said, trigger warnings aren't for people who've experienced things. They're for people who are scared of experiencing those things. Because they're so often claimed to be protective of the people who have experienced trauma, and maybe in some cases they are. Maybe there are some people who don't want to read about a particular traumatic experience that they've gone through, but that's pretty subjective, isn't it.

I still completely agree that they're not for the people who have experienced the trauma for they're for the people who are scared to experience the trauma and for those who have had the trauma. I do feel bad for any triggering moments, but studies have shown that one of the best ways to be never going to get over but one of the best ways to process what you've gone through is to have of exposures. I really worry about the curation of life and the feeling that we need to start putting triggers on everything because you know, where does it end? Because what triggers me is something that I would never put someone like in the child loss community, a lot of pregnancy announcements are triggering, And now I'm starting to see pregnancy announcements with trigger warnings for the people who are in the infertility space, and it's like, no, I don't agree with trigger warnings on that either, because that's someone's joy. You know. I just don't believe in trigger warnings at all. I think in some cases they might allow someone to avoid an article for a short period of time, but in the long term, it's not going to do that person any good for everyone else. It's going to be negative. It's going to, I guess, make us weak. It's not going to prepare us for life.

I still completely agree that they're not for the people who have experienced the trauma for they're for the people who are scared to experience the trauma and for those who have had the trauma. I do feel bad for any triggering moments, but studies have shown that one of the best ways to be never going to get over but one of the best ways to process what you've gone through is to have of exposures. I really worry about the curation of life and the feeling that we need to start putting triggers on everything because you know, where does it end? Because what triggers me is something that I would never put someone like in the child loss community, a lot of pregnancy announcements are triggering, And now I'm starting to see pregnancy announcements with trigger warnings for the people who are in the infertility space, and it's like, no, I don't agree with trigger warnings on that either, because that's someone's joy. You know. I just don't believe in trigger warnings at all. I think in some cases they might allow someone to avoid an article for a short period of time, but in the long term, it's not going to do that person any good for everyone else. It's going to be negative. It's going to, I guess, make us weak. It's not going to prepare us for life.

So your philosophy is that we have responsibility for our own emotions and our own mental health and we shouldn't be outsourcing that to the Internet to protect us with trigger warnings.

So your philosophy is that we have responsibility for our own emotions and our own mental health and we shouldn't be outsourcing that to the Internet to protect us with trigger warnings.

Yeah, I mean it's very hard. I feel for people with mental health issues. I am one of them. Yeah, you know, I have a lot of diagnoses and on the medication, and I do take responsibility for what I consume. If I'm not in the right head space, then maybe going on the internet's not the place for me. I know that that can seem a bit harsh, and I really appreciate that society these days are more inclusive of people with mental health issues. I really appreciate that. Originally the thought behind it was in the right space, but the research shows that it doesn't work, and I just think that they're doing more harm than goods, So it's not for other people to protect me.

Yeah, I mean it's very hard. I feel for people with mental health issues. I am one of them. Yeah, you know, I have a lot of diagnoses and on the medication, and I do take responsibility for what I consume. If I'm not in the right head space, then maybe going on the internet's not the place for me. I know that that can seem a bit harsh, and I really appreciate that society these days are more inclusive of people with mental health issues. I really appreciate that. Originally the thought behind it was in the right space, but the research shows that it doesn't work, and I just think that they're doing more harm than goods, So it's not for other people to protect me.

You've also spoken and written about trauma creep, because of course, trigger warnings are meant to be for people who have experienced trauma to avoid being retraumatized. The question of who's trauma tized and what trauma is ties into this, doesn't it. Can you explain what trauma creep is?

You've also spoken and written about trauma creep, because of course, trigger warnings are meant to be for people who have experienced trauma to avoid being retraumatized. The question of who's trauma tized and what trauma is ties into this, doesn't it. Can you explain what trauma creep is?

Yeah, it's the fact that some of the terminology that we use in society is creeping out of the scientific, psychological behavioral space and it's coming into everyday language. So you know you're wanting something clean. Oh my god, I've got OCD or traumatized, I've got PTSD from guy not calling me. It's just this language that's so hyperbolic, that's coming into our space, and it's using these really big words in an everyday capacity. And where do the people who actually have OCD PTSD, you know, where do they actually sit now? What my trauma of my child passing away and losing further children and everything else that I've gone through that sits on par in a conversation like obviously not when you're going deep, but in a conversation with someone who burnt their tongue on a tea because it was too hot. Like I just think that we've got such a wide vocabulary in the English language that we can start using some of the less dramatic words. I'm sad, I'm disappointed, I'm upset. I don't like hearing that just being careful with your language, So.

Yeah, it's the fact that some of the terminology that we use in society is creeping out of the scientific, psychological behavioral space and it's coming into everyday language. So you know you're wanting something clean. Oh my god, I've got OCD or traumatized, I've got PTSD from guy not calling me. It's just this language that's so hyperbolic, that's coming into our space, and it's using these really big words in an everyday capacity. And where do the people who actually have OCD PTSD, you know, where do they actually sit now? What my trauma of my child passing away and losing further children and everything else that I've gone through that sits on par in a conversation like obviously not when you're going deep, but in a conversation with someone who burnt their tongue on a tea because it was too hot. Like I just think that we've got such a wide vocabulary in the English language that we can start using some of the less dramatic words. I'm sad, I'm disappointed, I'm upset. I don't like hearing that just being careful with your language, So.

Rach, have you been changing minds? You've been talking about this for quite a long time. Now. Have you seen a.

Rach, have you been changing minds? You've been talking about this for quite a long time. Now. Have you seen a.

Shift so my post around trigger warnings? I think I was surprised that it actually took off. I saw a lot of other fellow lost parents also talking about trigger warnings. I saw a really nice rippler, at least within my community. I think the conversation is happening I think it is developing momentum.

Shift so my post around trigger warnings? I think I was surprised that it actually took off. I saw a lot of other fellow lost parents also talking about trigger warnings. I saw a really nice rippler, at least within my community. I think the conversation is happening I think it is developing momentum.

That's beautiful. Rate. Thank you so much. And after the break you're going to hear from Victoria Bridgeland, the Australian academic whose research into trigger warnings has changed the way people all over the world are thinking about them. Can you give us your working definition of the trigger warning?

That's beautiful. Rate. Thank you so much. And after the break you're going to hear from Victoria Bridgeland, the Australian academic whose research into trigger warnings has changed the way people all over the world are thinking about them. Can you give us your working definition of the trigger warning?

So there's all kinds of warnings you can get for different things. Obviously you can get those film warnings. You can get warnings for like content containing indigenous persons, So we're not talking about any of those kind of warnings, although I think film warnings are probably like an early ancestor. A true trigger warning is something that warns you about something that might be potentially distressing, and that's probably going to be potentially distressing because of something that's happened to you in the past or present, So maybe a traumatic event or like a mental health related issue could be depression, anxiety or that kind of So it's really just warning you about upcoming negative content that's probably related to you in some personal way, rather than just generally negative content.

So there's all kinds of warnings you can get for different things. Obviously you can get those film warnings. You can get warnings for like content containing indigenous persons, So we're not talking about any of those kind of warnings, although I think film warnings are probably like an early ancestor. A true trigger warning is something that warns you about something that might be potentially distressing, and that's probably going to be potentially distressing because of something that's happened to you in the past or present, So maybe a traumatic event or like a mental health related issue could be depression, anxiety or that kind of So it's really just warning you about upcoming negative content that's probably related to you in some personal way, rather than just generally negative content.

What's the difference between a trigger warning and a content warning?

What's the difference between a trigger warning and a content warning?

They're sort of one and the same thing. Every now and then trigger warnings will go through a rebrand because they are starting to get more heat against them because of the evidence coming out and people say, I don't think they work, and so people go, oh, we're not using a trigger warning, and we'll now we're using a content warning. But it's really the same thing repackaged. I've even seen people say that the term trigger is too triggering because it evokes gun imagery, and so people are saying we shouldn't use that term at all because it's violent, and so maybe we should use like can notes or like I don't know, other counting. But really it's doing the same thing. If the purpose of it is to warn people about a mental health related thing or a trauma, which is what they are for, then it's a triger warning. So that's sort of how I define it. It's like what they're used for rather than what they are because they come in all different forms and shapes and things.

They're sort of one and the same thing. Every now and then trigger warnings will go through a rebrand because they are starting to get more heat against them because of the evidence coming out and people say, I don't think they work, and so people go, oh, we're not using a trigger warning, and we'll now we're using a content warning. But it's really the same thing repackaged. I've even seen people say that the term trigger is too triggering because it evokes gun imagery, and so people are saying we shouldn't use that term at all because it's violent, and so maybe we should use like can notes or like I don't know, other counting. But really it's doing the same thing. If the purpose of it is to warn people about a mental health related thing or a trauma, which is what they are for, then it's a triger warning. So that's sort of how I define it. It's like what they're used for rather than what they are because they come in all different forms and shapes and things.

So what does the science say?

So what does the science say?

Pretty extensive number of studies now, I think we've got about ten to fifteen. There's probably a few more that have come out since WIT did our meta analysis on them. Basically, they don't only do much of anything except for me, people feel anxious when they first see them. So people see a trigger warning, they feel a little bit anxious about what's coming up, sort of like apprehension or anticipatory anxiety, not very large anxiety, but just like a small amount of, you know, something, negatives coming. When people see the content after that, it doesn't reduce any negative feelings towards it, So it doesn't seem to be doing any of that emotional preparation. I can't find any evidence of that at all, even for people like in target groups that people would say, Okay, well you've just looked at the general population, but we've also looked at trauma survivors. We've also looked a people with depression. We've also looked to people with anxiety, and it doesn't seem to help any of these people. Across the board, everyone just feels the same when they see the content. And as for avoidance, that is probably more of a weird Iceberg scenario where there's so much weird stuff going on with avoidance with tree warnings or just avoidance of negative stuff in general. So I guess people would assume that humans are quite logical beings that if you see something negative that you don't want to see, you should avoid it. But what we find is humans actually have this huge propensity towards small butid curiosity, and so even though people probably know something's going to make them upset, people want to look at it anyway. And so in a lot of my studies, I found like such a tiny avoidance rate of anything negative. Even when we're like continually exposing people to the nastiest photos in our photo sets, which are quite traumatic photos of actual like dead bodies and things. You can keep showing people them and say to them you don't have to see them, because we'll have a screen on them, like those Instagram blurred warning screens, and we'll say you don't have to uncover this if you don't want to go to the next photo. People will just keep uncovering them again and again and again. Most of our studies we found like fifty percent of people will just uncover every single negative photo that we've shown them, which is quite a high number. And then as for like the first few photos, about eighty to ninety percent of people will instantly cover that photo. So there is a drop off of like people that do see the negative thing and go okay, maybe I don't want to look at anymore, but most people are just keep wanting to look at stuff. Victoria.

Pretty extensive number of studies now, I think we've got about ten to fifteen. There's probably a few more that have come out since WIT did our meta analysis on them. Basically, they don't only do much of anything except for me, people feel anxious when they first see them. So people see a trigger warning, they feel a little bit anxious about what's coming up, sort of like apprehension or anticipatory anxiety, not very large anxiety, but just like a small amount of, you know, something, negatives coming. When people see the content after that, it doesn't reduce any negative feelings towards it, So it doesn't seem to be doing any of that emotional preparation. I can't find any evidence of that at all, even for people like in target groups that people would say, Okay, well you've just looked at the general population, but we've also looked at trauma survivors. We've also looked a people with depression. We've also looked to people with anxiety, and it doesn't seem to help any of these people. Across the board, everyone just feels the same when they see the content. And as for avoidance, that is probably more of a weird Iceberg scenario where there's so much weird stuff going on with avoidance with tree warnings or just avoidance of negative stuff in general. So I guess people would assume that humans are quite logical beings that if you see something negative that you don't want to see, you should avoid it. But what we find is humans actually have this huge propensity towards small butid curiosity, and so even though people probably know something's going to make them upset, people want to look at it anyway. And so in a lot of my studies, I found like such a tiny avoidance rate of anything negative. Even when we're like continually exposing people to the nastiest photos in our photo sets, which are quite traumatic photos of actual like dead bodies and things. You can keep showing people them and say to them you don't have to see them, because we'll have a screen on them, like those Instagram blurred warning screens, and we'll say you don't have to uncover this if you don't want to go to the next photo. People will just keep uncovering them again and again and again. Most of our studies we found like fifty percent of people will just uncover every single negative photo that we've shown them, which is quite a high number. And then as for like the first few photos, about eighty to ninety percent of people will instantly cover that photo. So there is a drop off of like people that do see the negative thing and go okay, maybe I don't want to look at anymore, but most people are just keep wanting to look at stuff. Victoria.

What's the difference between that, Because people could argue, well, you've given them a choice right, as opposed to the physiological reaction of when that image or those words might just be put in front of me without you telling me that it might distress me or that it's graphic.

What's the difference between that, Because people could argue, well, you've given them a choice right, as opposed to the physiological reaction of when that image or those words might just be put in front of me without you telling me that it might distress me or that it's graphic.

I don't think it would make much of a difference because I just don't think unless you're specifically instructing somebody on how to reduce that reaction, I don't think the Triger warnings doing anything at all. There's no way to emotionally inoculate yourself just using a language from trigger warnings, unless you're, like maybe if you've been going through like years of therapy or you know about certain emotion regulation techniques, maybe you can. But it's a really like abstracto morphous thing to ask somebody to like stop themselves having a reaction towards something, or you don't know the technique. So usually when something's negative, it's got something unique and weird about it, it's socially devient about it, and so people are very attractive to that to gain that information and maybe learn something about how to protect themselves, or learn something about the world and how to be safe maybe or avoid threads. So we do have, I think, this sort of thing in us to sort of seek things. But what's even more, I guess disturbing about it is a lot of disorders as well have this propensity. So we would think somebody that's feeling depressed would be motivated to repair their mood, But what we actually find is that depressed people often because feeling depressed and feeling sad is a familiar mood state, they want to stay in that mood and they want to like purposely seek content that makes them feel even more depressed, and then they go down these sort of Internet rabbit holes and the algorithm feeds it and all that kind of stuff. It's kind of like when you're sad and you listen to a sad playlist, it's like that feeling.

I don't think it would make much of a difference because I just don't think unless you're specifically instructing somebody on how to reduce that reaction, I don't think the Triger warnings doing anything at all. There's no way to emotionally inoculate yourself just using a language from trigger warnings, unless you're, like maybe if you've been going through like years of therapy or you know about certain emotion regulation techniques, maybe you can. But it's a really like abstracto morphous thing to ask somebody to like stop themselves having a reaction towards something, or you don't know the technique. So usually when something's negative, it's got something unique and weird about it, it's socially devient about it, and so people are very attractive to that to gain that information and maybe learn something about how to protect themselves, or learn something about the world and how to be safe maybe or avoid threads. So we do have, I think, this sort of thing in us to sort of seek things. But what's even more, I guess disturbing about it is a lot of disorders as well have this propensity. So we would think somebody that's feeling depressed would be motivated to repair their mood, But what we actually find is that depressed people often because feeling depressed and feeling sad is a familiar mood state, they want to stay in that mood and they want to like purposely seek content that makes them feel even more depressed, and then they go down these sort of Internet rabbit holes and the algorithm feeds it and all that kind of stuff. It's kind of like when you're sad and you listen to a sad playlist, it's like that feeling.

You want to see it mirrored. And that really gets to the heart of what this is about, doesn't it. It's this dejective nature of how trigger warnings are used and what they're meant to do versus what they do do and who benefits from them and who suffers because of them. That's the point, isn't it That you can't take into account how someone will use a piece of information, So even warning someone about that information can have a detrimental effect on them.

You want to see it mirrored. And that really gets to the heart of what this is about, doesn't it. It's this dejective nature of how trigger warnings are used and what they're meant to do versus what they do do and who benefits from them and who suffers because of them. That's the point, isn't it That you can't take into account how someone will use a piece of information, So even warning someone about that information can have a detrimental effect on them.

Yeah, I think so, And I think it's really that individual difference thing as well as because no matter how much evidence we have that like for most people, they don't work. And when I mean most people, I mean general population, people with different disorders we've screened for and things like that, there'll be that one person that will be like, no, but they help me, and then so you can. You know, there's always these different arguments that will be brought up about how they help will harm. But I think the biggest danger though in triger warnings is assuming that they're doing great benefit to anybody. No matter how you slice it, I just think they're not doing much at all of anything. They're not they're definitely not helping, and there's some evidence that they're probably doing some harm. But it's just really bad to assume that as long as you slap a trigger warning on any piece of media, you're protecting people. Or you know, if a professor just puts a trigger warning on their class material, but doesn't think about how the class will receive it or for any support, or it's like a band aid to sort of slap on things and try and fix this mental health crisis that we're always talking about. Because it's really easy and it's cheap, you know, for social media websites, so I can just put it on there and I have to do anything else, I have to invest anything in anything. It seems like a really good solution, but it just doesn't do anything. It doesn't help anybody.

Yeah, I think so, And I think it's really that individual difference thing as well as because no matter how much evidence we have that like for most people, they don't work. And when I mean most people, I mean general population, people with different disorders we've screened for and things like that, there'll be that one person that will be like, no, but they help me, and then so you can. You know, there's always these different arguments that will be brought up about how they help will harm. But I think the biggest danger though in triger warnings is assuming that they're doing great benefit to anybody. No matter how you slice it, I just think they're not doing much at all of anything. They're not they're definitely not helping, and there's some evidence that they're probably doing some harm. But it's just really bad to assume that as long as you slap a trigger warning on any piece of media, you're protecting people. Or you know, if a professor just puts a trigger warning on their class material, but doesn't think about how the class will receive it or for any support, or it's like a band aid to sort of slap on things and try and fix this mental health crisis that we're always talking about. Because it's really easy and it's cheap, you know, for social media websites, so I can just put it on there and I have to do anything else, I have to invest anything in anything. It seems like a really good solution, but it just doesn't do anything. It doesn't help anybody.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that when we're criticized at mum and Mea for not putting a trigger warning on something, because a while ago I noticed that there had been trigger creep on Muma Mea articles and Muma Mea podcasts, and I asked the team about why that was, and they said that we would often get complaints, not from lot of people, but the people who did complain would complain very loudly and be very insistent that trigger warnings were required and that we should have put a trigger warning on this podcast or on that piece of content. Often when it might just be someone mentioning that they had a miscarriage or that they had experienced domestic violence and not going into any detail, and maybe that in many cases that wasn't even the main part of the story. It just happened to be, maybe even just those words that they mentioned. And what I noticed when talking to the team is that the people who complained were almost never the people who'd actually experienced those things. It's usually the complainers, and the polices of trigger warnings and content warnings are the people who've decided it's their job to protect whoever they perceived might be well, you know, triggered. And again, I want to believe that they are well intentioned, but as you've heard, I've always just had a really deep, visceral reaction against trigger warnings. And on a show like this on No Filter, we hear from people who've lived through some really heavy things, from real survivors of abuse and violence, of addiction, of racism, and a lot of trauma. People like Rachel, people who've suffered unimaginable loss and experience things that most of us hopefully will never experience, and they've come out on the other side with a really important story to tell. And I think, as Rachel does, that putting a trigger warning on their stories, I don't know. I think it cheapens them in a way, and I think it patronizes you, the listener, who I really believe has the resilience and the ability to choose what you want to consume and avoid what you don't. And I know personally there are several things, actually many things that trigger me, and none of them would be covered by trigger warnings in the way that they're understood. What triggers upsetting or uncomfortable feelings is totally unique to each of us, right, and it must be the responsibility, in my opinion, of each of us to manage because the alternative to that is to outsource your mental well being to the internet. And is that something that we really want to do rely on the outside world to manage our feelings. The outside world is not our helicopter, and that sounds like a really terrible idea to me. So what Rachel's story and Victoria's research really just validate for me is that we have to be our own gatekeepers when it comes to how we navigate the world, whether it's our screens and our phones, or books and movies, or what's taught in a classroom, and of course the stories that we bring you here at No Filter and at Muma Maya. Now I still wrestle with this. Sometimes it's not black and white. If you listen to our episode with dassy Erlick a few weeks ago, she suffered horrendous abuse of a really quite graphic nature, and so I did in the end at a content warning because you described some of that abuse. And sometimes there might be a little ears in the car with you, or you might be listening in a public place, like in your kitchen while you're cooking, and there's other people around. So I think it's important also that we provide resources for people who are triggered by the content in our stories. And we're very careful to always provide links to be on Blue or Lifeline or other specialized organizations, and we've done that today for anyone who needs a bit of extra support after listening to Rachel's story. But a big, bright, flashing red trigger warning scaring people away before they can make up their own mind, you're not going to find that on No Filter. But I want to know what you think. I have strong opinions loosely held, and I'm really curious to hear from you. You are the ones I'm thinking about when I think about trigger warnings on this show, So let me know. Maybe I'll share some of your feedback in one of my Insta bubbles on my Instagram account at mea Friedman, or in my Babbel newsletter which you have to sign up for but it comes free to your inbox. Will pop a link to that in the show notes as well. So there you are trigger warnings, Love them, payd them, have a think. Are you triggered by trigger warnings? Share this episode with your friends and have a good old fashioned debate and let me know where you land. The executive producer of No Filter is Niama Brown. She's not a fan of trigger warnings either. Our audio producer is Leiah Porges, and she's on the fence. See lots of opinions over here at MMA. Miya, I'm mea Friedman. Thanks for listening. That's of laugh

One thing I've noticed over the years is that when we're criticized at mum and Mea for not putting a trigger warning on something, because a while ago I noticed that there had been trigger creep on Muma Mea articles and Muma Mea podcasts, and I asked the team about why that was, and they said that we would often get complaints, not from lot of people, but the people who did complain would complain very loudly and be very insistent that trigger warnings were required and that we should have put a trigger warning on this podcast or on that piece of content. Often when it might just be someone mentioning that they had a miscarriage or that they had experienced domestic violence and not going into any detail, and maybe that in many cases that wasn't even the main part of the story. It just happened to be, maybe even just those words that they mentioned. And what I noticed when talking to the team is that the people who complained were almost never the people who'd actually experienced those things. It's usually the complainers, and the polices of trigger warnings and content warnings are the people who've decided it's their job to protect whoever they perceived might be well, you know, triggered. And again, I want to believe that they are well intentioned, but as you've heard, I've always just had a really deep, visceral reaction against trigger warnings. And on a show like this on No Filter, we hear from people who've lived through some really heavy things, from real survivors of abuse and violence, of addiction, of racism, and a lot of trauma. People like Rachel, people who've suffered unimaginable loss and experience things that most of us hopefully will never experience, and they've come out on the other side with a really important story to tell. And I think, as Rachel does, that putting a trigger warning on their stories, I don't know. I think it cheapens them in a way, and I think it patronizes you, the listener, who I really believe has the resilience and the ability to choose what you want to consume and avoid what you don't. And I know personally there are several things, actually many things that trigger me, and none of them would be covered by trigger warnings in the way that they're understood. What triggers upsetting or uncomfortable feelings is totally unique to each of us, right, and it must be the responsibility, in my opinion, of each of us to manage because the alternative to that is to outsource your mental well being to the internet. And is that something that we really want to do rely on the outside world to manage our feelings. The outside world is not our helicopter, and that sounds like a really terrible idea to me. So what Rachel's story and Victoria's research really just validate for me is that we have to be our own gatekeepers when it comes to how we navigate the world, whether it's our screens and our phones, or books and movies, or what's taught in a classroom, and of course the stories that we bring you here at No Filter and at Muma Maya. Now I still wrestle with this. Sometimes it's not black and white. If you listen to our episode with dassy Erlick a few weeks ago, she suffered horrendous abuse of a really quite graphic nature, and so I did in the end at a content warning because you described some of that abuse. And sometimes there might be a little ears in the car with you, or you might be listening in a public place, like in your kitchen while you're cooking, and there's other people around. So I think it's important also that we provide resources for people who are triggered by the content in our stories. And we're very careful to always provide links to be on Blue or Lifeline or other specialized organizations, and we've done that today for anyone who needs a bit of extra support after listening to Rachel's story. But a big, bright, flashing red trigger warning scaring people away before they can make up their own mind, you're not going to find that on No Filter. But I want to know what you think. I have strong opinions loosely held, and I'm really curious to hear from you. You are the ones I'm thinking about when I think about trigger warnings on this show, So let me know. Maybe I'll share some of your feedback in one of my Insta bubbles on my Instagram account at mea Friedman, or in my Babbel newsletter which you have to sign up for but it comes free to your inbox. Will pop a link to that in the show notes as well. So there you are trigger warnings, Love them, payd them, have a think. Are you triggered by trigger warnings? Share this episode with your friends and have a good old fashioned debate and let me know where you land. The executive producer of No Filter is Niama Brown. She's not a fan of trigger warnings either. Our audio producer is Leiah Porges, and she's on the fence. See lots of opinions over here at MMA. Miya, I'm mea Friedman. Thanks for listening. That's of laugh