And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. Alright, Black, Well, we love our big guys, and this is a big guy episode here on our Move to six prototype series, looking at the offensive line. And man, we've got some great guests lined up to discuss the big uglies. Yeah, the big uglies you talk about big man dance contest, that's what we call it, down to the line of scrimmage. But we don't have some great experts to talk about it. Sean O'Hara, who has won the Super Bowl with the New York Giants. We can also talk to Paul Alexander and then how are my coming on to join and give us a little expertise on the offensive line. Yeah, to two outstanding coaches that have uh have coached a lot of great players and have a great idea of what makes an offensive linement that can be successful in today's NFL. I think you're gonna enjoy those conversations. And O'Hara has always a lot of fun when we chat with him. Now, remember, if you're just checking us out here on this episode, you can find the Quarterback Episode a running back episod, so in a wide receiver episode. Uh, that's already available. You can go listen to those right now, and then we're gonna have some more coming your way. Eat the defensive side of the ball, uh, with some more episodes here shortly in our prototype series, Buck, when we look at the offensive line position and we're just kind of grouping it together right now inside guys, outside guys, but just at the core, for any offensive lineman, what are two or three attributes that you believe you you've gotta have. When we're trying to find these guys, the first thing that I look for I'm looking at their feet, so I need to see balance and body control. I want to see if they're nimble, if they're light, if they're guys that can change and redirect. Uh, how much quickness do they display when they have to move laterally to their right into the left. Secondly, I want to see what are their hands like? Are these guys strong with their hands? Can they latch on, lock on, ride you out? And then finally, some of this speaks to their attitude and demeanor. I want to see him finish. I need an offensive line composed of nasty guys, guys that kind of take it from snap to the whistle and maybe even a little beyond the whistle. I want to make sure that we have a physical, running, running game. And so the offensive lineman. Did I prefer other ones to have a little nasty in new game? Yeah? Ideally you want everybody that can do everything right. But you it's tough, tough to get those type of guys. Uh, they're very few. But to me, I look at a couple of different things. First of all, it's a passing league, um, and I do this for every position. You know, we're talking about scouting and going through that process. For me almost hopefully they are this way. If you ever read my my reports and my write ups on to my top fifty every year. I will start whether it's an offensive lineman, uh, you know, a running back. Um, maybe running back might be the one exception. Let me just boil it down. You start with the passing game, defensive lineman. I want to get to the point, how does he rush the pastor after that we'll get how he does against run. Offensive lineman, how do he's doing pass protection? Then we can get to what he does uh in the running game, because you've got guys that can't slide can't redirect and can't pass protected. I don't care if you're playing outside or inside. They're gonna isolate you and you're gonna get exposed and you're not gonna be able to stay in the fields. You've gotta be able to pass protect. Toughness is toughness, and I'll put intelligence instincts combining that all together. If I get somebody that can pass protect and I get some toughness, I can work on some technique things run wise, you can clean that up and improve. But man, if you can't pass protect buck, you can't play now, you don't have a chance. Because it's all about the quarterback. The franchise quarterback is making north of thirty million dollars. You better believe that some of the old lineman that you bring in, they need to be able to keep him upright and safe and secure in the pocket. So, yes, the passing game takes precedence, but you have a small handful of folks that still believe the running game is the best way to sustain your success. The teams that go to the playoffs, of the teams that still run more than others. Yeah, well, we're gonna get into all of it. And the evaluation of the position. And let's get to our interviews here, because we've got a couple great ones coming up with Howard mud and Paul Alexander, two legendary coaches. But we're gonna start things off with somebody who played the position up front at a very high level. He's a pro bowler, he's a Super Bowl winner, and he's a friend. How New York Giants have knocked off the New England Patriots seventeen fourteen, has Tom Conflint gets a gatoragge bath and the Giants were the most improbable win in recent memory, have one super Bowl forty two. All excited to be joined by our buddy Sean O'Hara and and Sean, we're looking at offensive lineman and and really trying to identify prototypes at the position right now. But I want to ask you first of all, just what you think the uh the makeup is like formulated offensive line. We'll get to what they do on the field, but what type of a makeup are you looking for at that position? Yeah, I know when everybody talks offensive line play, they talk about the chemistry and does an offensive line gel You know you've heard all the cliches about you're only as strong as your weakest link. Um. I think chemistry is a huge factor when you're assembling an offensive line as a as a unit, but as an individual, I think you've got to have a little bit of nastiness in you. You know, you could be a nice guy off the field, but at some point time when I turn on the film him, and when I'm watching a kid, I want to see him finish somebody. If you're not pile driving somebody in the ground at any point in time in a game, then in college and you're sure's heck not gonna do it in the NFL. So that's kind of one thing that I that I like to look at when I'm watching guys. But back from when I when I was playing, the one thing that assured you a quick trip out the door or a seat on the bench was if you didn't know what you were doing. So I think offensive lineman, and I'm not just saying this because I was one of them, but you guys have been around him a lot, you really have to be one of the smartest guys in the huddle because you don't get a playoff. You have to know what everybody's your right and your left are doing. You can't just stay in your lane and have tunnel vision. You've got to also be able to understand or read defenses and anticipate what they're doing. So it's not just about pure athleticism. You've got to have great technique, but you've got to have the ability to absorb what's this defense doing. What are the tendencies I've seen this front before. Um. I always felt like as a center, my wits would kind of make up for any physical attributes that I was lacking in. But I also felt like the more I knew and the more I knew how my quarterback was seeing things, the better that would make me as a center and relaying some of the calls. You know, So the center position obviously the pivot. You guys are kind of the main communicators when it comes to the offensive line. Everyone when they think about offensive line, they always start outside though with the tackles. What do you look for in offensive tackles? And is there really a major difference between left tackle and rats right tackle based on the way the game is trendy? Yeah, you know, it's it's really interesting because when I look at the further away from the ball you get, the more athletic. I feel like you had to be. So tackles, certainly you've got to be more athletic guards. You know, it can be kind of in between. Uh, center, any anybody can play center. Uh you don't even have to be a great athlete. Uh now I'm kidding. I think tackles the couple of factors that I that I look at and and the best tackles to play the game obviously a great feat I mean, you're not gonna be a tackle in the NFL if you can't move your feet and if you can't change direction. But I think they always had great punch. And I know a lot of people in the combine we get enamored with how long are their arms, you know, although what's the wingspan? And that's great, having long arms as great as a tackle. But if you don't punch, it doesn't matter how long your arms are. If you're a grabber, then you're not getting that full extension. So I think tackles have to have a really good punch their their hands have got to be tight. Um. It doesn't do you any good if you have long arms. If if your hands are all over the place. Um. And then their footwork. And when people say footwork, sometimes people just say, Okay, well he's athletic, he can sholfle, he can move. See. To me, the footwork is your recoverability because in the NFL, you're not always gonna get your first jam. You know, I was gonna get your first punch. They're gonna swipe, They're gonna find a way to make you miss. So can you after you've missed a punch, can you recover with your feet to get back in front. Otherwise you're just gonna be You're gonna be a constant holder and you're gonna be constantly getting penalties. I like what you're saying there sean to me if if we're looking just offensive, wantline across the board. And I know there's officers differences in playing inside we're to being on the outside. Um, but kind of listening to you and jotting down what you're saying and what we've talked about previously. UM, the foundation, if you're gonna start with the foundation of an offensive lineman, uh, tough, smart, and the ability to recover would be three areas I think I would start, and I would probably add the fourth which be just anchor, especially when we're talking the interior guys. But so you've got the toughness, you've got the smarts. Um, you've got the ability to recover, and you've got the ability to anchor. Is that a proper foundation for how you build an offensive lineman. Yeah? I think those are all key ingredients. Now you can kind of maneuver. You could switch for in two as far as what their strengths are. But um, I think when you look at at one of the fastest that I look at offensive lineman, when you watch them in a stance, you want to see what how flexible are they? You know, we we we focus so much on power and hey, can you get the squat rack? How much can you lift? How much can you hankling? That's great and all that hip explosion, that hip power is great. But if you can't bend, if you can't get low, that power means nothing. And that power will not translate. So I'll look at guys when they're in their stance and you can tell, boy, are they stiff in the ankles If they get in the stance and their heels are up off the ground because their ankles are so tight that they're gonna have a tough time getting their whole foot in the ground and pushing guys. If they get in the stance and they can't open up with their hips, then now all of a sudden, they're limited. We watched that so much. We talk about it at the combine and I know you guys when you go to pro days, that's one of the things that everybody's looking at is how fluid are they? But low man always wins. And I'll always say that when you get a guy that can squat seven pounds, that's great. But if he gets out on the field and he can't bend his bend his knees and he can't move with while he's low, if he has to stand up to to move side to side, now you've got a guy that lost all his power. Um. So I think that's a big factor in it. So many times I've been around guys that are weight room warriors. They look like Tarzan and you put them on the field and they put them like Jane and you can't figure it out because it just doesn't translate. Uh. The bench press is kind of one of those things where we'd have a guy, um, you know, I remember a guy that I played with, Scott peters Man. He was strong. I mean he could bench like six pounds and if he punched you in one on ones, he was great. But if he missed, it was wrapped. It was a sack. You're you're done. So uh, some of those things don't necessarily translate, but I know, UM, when teams look at offensive linement coming out when they get a chance to, they now they have these functional movement screens where they can find out if you have hip tightness. Hip tightness has been directly correlated to a c L injuries, So that's why a lot of teams are doing yoga. We started doing that with the Giants UH as a prehab exercise to try to prevent injuries as well as UH improving flexibility. You know, you talked uniquely about the challenge of kind of building an offensive line because you have five guys that have to work together, and you talked about how they need to you know, kind of not be best buzz, but they have to have the right mix, the right personality. Do you believe there is the right personality to be an offensive alignment on a team full of different characters? Yeah, that's always the challenge, you know. And I've been you know, on a couple of different teams where look, well you didn't have guys that necessarily hung out all the time, like you know Kae mackenzie for example. You know, we consider him one of our best friends. He didn't always hang out with us, you know. He he wasn't married and didn't have kids, and so there were times where he would kind of do his own thing. But there was this relationship that we had once we got in the building and once we got the stadium, where we would tease each other and guys would play pranks and do things, but it was it was a brotherhood. And I think that's that that starts in the off season, you know. And I remember, you know, when when Tom Coffin was with the Giants, he came in a four and I came in as a free agent. I came in on a visit like March seven, and I said, hey, when does the offsee program start? He goes two weeks ago. Now as a different time. Obviously, now you know he's getting in trouble for saying guys should be here. Um, so we're in a totally different world. But I realized Wow, hey, guys are working here. And you know what I said was well, as I asked him, I said, how many alignment are here? He goes three of them. I'm sorry, well on Monday though before, because I wasn't gonna let my boys work and not be there helping out, you know. I mean, it's like somebody delivers sixty five yards and mulch to your house. You're not gonna sit there and drinking lemonade watching your boys go and spread it all out. I mean, maybe I'm gonna you're gonna get some blister too and get I mean, I gotta I gotta let him do the work. I mean to bring my glass. But what I'm not, I'm not working when you're in to make you that. Maybe you have somebody to it for you. I don't know, but I think as offensive alignment, you've gotta, like you gotta put in the time, you know, especially when you go out there and you know, like, hey, look man, we're out here for sixty five snaps. It's not like any other position. You're not rotating guys. You know, very rarely do offensive lineman come off the field in a game. So you know, you kind of you build that trust and you build that Hey, we're gonna push each other. You build that in the off season. That's why I've always felt like, you know, workouts, O T A S, mini camp, training camp, that was always great for building that camaraderie, building that chemistry. But the best offensive lines are groups that had that same kind of mindset. When you look at the two teams that played in the Super Bowl this past year, the Rams of the Patriots, both of those teams started all five guys the entire season. So there's a direct correlation between having a strong, like minded unit in the offensive line and winning games. Well, I'm gonna show your age here a little bit, Sean, because you entered the league in two thousand and so if we look at the way the game was played there in almost twenty years now since you started your career in football league, and we look at where the game is right now. I knew that would hurt. Look at where the game is right now, maybe projecting the next five to ten years. What do you think was valued in the in the year two thousand when you came in. Uh that maybe at this point in time, maybe a little bit over overrated. And then on the other side of things. What was something maybe we wouldn't put much stock in at that point in time, which is becoming increasingly more important. How is it of involved and changed that position? Yeah, good question. I want to say. In two thousand, everybody was going for the big old lines. You know, it was how big can you get? You know? I think about Trey Johnson, who was a guard in Washington for a long time, um, and and he ended up playing with him in Cleveland for a while, and he was threety pounds. I mean, he was one of those strongest things I've ever ever met. You know, he didn't really care to pull, he didn't want to get on space. But you know, the Cowboys won three Super Bowls in five years and they had one of the biggest old lines with big Cat Williams and Nate Newton and um, Larry Allen. So it was kind of like, hey, look, if you want to have a big old line, you're gonna you're gonna be able to move people, even the Ravens in two thousand when um, you know Flynn I think was the singer uh big zeus um and then uh, you know obviously I left actually, so it was just hey, look we want to get the biggest bodies out there. Four sequels mass times acceleration, so let's double up on the m um. And I think then Denver kind of came into the picture and they had a little bit more of an athletic office line, and it was man Schlaret and Nayling and um, you know some of these Hey, we're gonna run the zone scheme and we're gonna get the defense moving and then we'll slice you on the back side. So that kind of that was kind of the end and yang of the offense. And I remember coming in to the league. My number one goal was, Man, I gotta get the three ten, I gotta get big. It was you know, I came in as an undersized guy, played left tackle at Rutgers. I knew I wanted to move inside, but I was two um and I remember Tim Jorgensen, our strength coach. I said, Tim, I gotta put some weight on it as well. You want to get bigger, you need some gas, so here you go. Just he would just feed me creating and on my locker and it was like, you know, I'm like, really another one. It's like gas more gas. That was his big thing. So I just was trying to get as big as I could get UM, and then I kind of realized halfway through my career, like you know what, quit being quick is even more important than being strong because that strength sometimes doesn't translate into the fourth quarter, but your quickness can as long as you're conditioning is right. So I think what we're seeing now is offensive linemen are much more athletic. I feel like they have to be because the defensive line has gotten more athletic. They've got they're they're bigger and they're stronger, but they're faster. You know, You're you're blocking guys with linebacker speed at two pounds playing d n So it's really forced the offensive linemen to get more athletic. But I think you mentioned Bucky that the tackles, that's been the biggest thing. I mean, you see guys that that, um, you know, they look like basketball players out there playing tackle and they get away with it. Um. You know. So it's it's much more athletic play. I think the passing game has changed things now. I mean most teams are throwing the ball twice as much as they're running the football, So that's kind of changed the makeup of the old line. One thing that's constant though DJ center centers. Centers continue to be the the move the needle on the intelligence factor, its continues to continue to trend up with you on I'm gonna give you a softball here and I'm gonna let you run here. At last question, one of the one of the things I like to do is go back after the Super Bowl and you go back and look at teams and where they invested uh their money in free agency as well as resigning their own guys as well as where they've invested their draft capital. And and Bucky and I we always talk about this on on the podcast, that the championship teams spend their money on the bigs and they and they take care of their quarterback. And and when you look at historically being on a Super Bowl team, um, the strength of that team again, the line of scrimmage on both sides, and the quarterback position. And that is that, in your opinion, if you're building a football team where it starts and ends at those three spots. Yeah, I think the quarterback is kind of that that's kind of in its own little category. Um, but you know, and in a quarterback driven league, the next question is can you get to the quarterback and can you protect yours? Um? So I definitely I think you know, when I was with the Giants, I remember when they drafted Justin Tuck and they said, why are you drafting another defensive end? And you have Ocie, You've got straight hand, You've got all those guys lo and behold, Justin Tuck's on third down. He's the he's the the inside rush guy. He's playing three technique and he helped the Giants win two Super Bowls. So you can never have enough of those guys. And I think it's probably more important to draft those guys because you you can get them, you know, on that rookie deal and pay them a lot less um, because they get more expensive the better the better passports, you're asking for more money. I mean, look at what Marcus Lawrence is getting down to Dallas. So you gotta get those guys on rookie deals. Offensive lineman, we're starting to see them get paid a little bit more now. Um, But those guys, you know, you you definitely you see teams that will pick and choose who are gonna pay a lot of teams will say we'll pay our left tackle, and we'll pay our right tackle, or we'll pay a left tackle on the right guard, and then other guys we're gonna try to fill in with, um, you know, cheaper labor or or young draft picks. But I definitely think that you've got to spend. Look at the Philadelphia Yeah, I mean they just tackle position, the center position, the guard position, and they keep stockpiling more. They can't have enough. They basically have two left tackles when you when you look at well three really now with Dealer, but with Lane Johnson. Lane Johnson on any team would be a left tackle. Um. So I think that that's one of the reasons why you know they won the Super Bow last year really was their depth hallelul Viti him stepping in a left tackle is would enable them to to win the Super Bow. Obviously when Nick Foles too. But yeah, I think getting getting Dillard, they see the importance of having that office line and certainly keeping your quarterback healthy. There you go, Sean, Thank you so much for your time, buddy. We appreciate it. All right, Good to see you guys. Well back with Shaun O'Hara. Look, he's he's entertaining, he's funny. He's a great guy, but he also is very intelligent and I you know, I think even just kind of wrapping things up there, Uh, we're talking about Andre Dillard in the Philadelphia Eagles. Man, you you better understand the importance of the offensive line position. You better have some depth, uh, if you want to go ahead and chase that ultimate prize in today's league. Yeah, you have to have to have You have you guys that can come off the bench and play with minimal reps. Mean, we've been to many pro practices, you know, the twos. They don't get a lot of work, so your ability to lock in really separates you from the back. But ultimately, it is funny watch an offensive lineman because you want to evaluate one, but you kind of have the great I'm on the curve with the entire unit. So it's a unique physician. Glad it would continue to talk about I'm gonna put you on the spot here, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a time to think here because I'm gonna give you my answer to the question. First, Um, people ask you in life, who is your first love? How about your first love as an offensive lineman? Go back there in your your scouting days, because I can give you mine. Um, first or second year scouting, UH was up at Fresno State and there was this guy with a beard and a cowboy hat, um and they just I met him. He came in through uh the room where I was watching tape and shook his hand. He's got ginormous hands. And question was, is he gonna be a tackle? Is he gonna be a guard? I don't know. I just know one thing this guy is. He is like he looks like he could be the Marlborough man Um. He is all man Um, so physical, so tough off and so smart. I'm like, this guy's gonna play. I mean a little white, I'm a young scalper. This guy's gonna play forever. He's gonna be great. I gave him my red Star, which we've discussed on the movie Stix podcast where you give it to one player here. You know what I'm talking about. Logan Makings. Um, that was my kind of my first crush there, My first offensive line crush as a as a scout was Logan Makings. Do you have a guy that you scouted early on that UH that you kind of fell in love with? If I had to think about like a guy that I absolutely fell in love with, I would have to go back to my time in Seattle. We were fortunate to have Walter Jones and we drafted Yeah, that's pretty good ones, and so she's two good ones. So we had both of those guys. They played sap us side. Whenever we were into we ran the ball to the left. Sean Alexander basically played at m v P level because he had to Hall of Fame caliber officsive lineman leading the way. So if I had to pick Man hutcheson a Gord Walter Jones the tackle, those are my prototypes because we were able to pull those guys off the board. And now you're just showing off. That's all that. It's just showing off right there. I love it. Well, let's get to our next conversation. Paul Alexander a long time NFL offensive line coach and and someone has been well respected inside the offensive line community for a long time and a great person to chat with. We're trying to learn more about the offensive line position. Here's our conversation with coach Paul Alexander, and we say, a veteran NFL offensive line coach. We mean it. We're talking about twenty six years of experience coaching in the National Football League, and amazingly, twenty three of those years spent in one organization with the Cincinnati Bengals. Coach. We can't thank you enough for your time today. We appreciate it. Oh thanks, guys, I enjoy uh talking to you about Thank you for having me. Huh, Well, there's no better person to talk to. And you've got such a sterling reputation you had had have had such a sterling reputation for so long, and and and scouts, we're always trying to figure out how we can do better, how we can become better evaluators of every position, and when we look at the offensive line position, I want to I want to go back just to a couple of specific players that you had chanced to be around there in Cincinnati, UM and just what you saw from them that you thought would translate into becoming outstanding pros. A couple of guys and Willie Anderson and also in Andrew Whitworth, coach, what did you see the foundation of them as players and what made you believe they were going to go on to be outstanding pros? Well, let's talk Willie Anderson first. Well, Willie Anderson was a massive man. He was probably the biggest, uh first huge offensive lineman in the league. Um he was at Alabama. I went and worked about. He had tremendous feat he had quickness. But he he did a thing. We did a droll where I had him stick his arms out and I tried to push his arms down to the ground. And when I tried to pull his arms down to the ground, I couldn't move. I could have done a chin up on his arms and uh and I said, oh five, right, And at that moment I knew he was gonna be a great player. And Willie and Sin when you talk about trades employers, it's very unique because Willie had big, strong hands, and Willie had exceptional feet. Now did he have Peter Petter feet? Did he have feet that he could can't dance and jump rope? Yes? He did, But did you see those feet on film? No, great players have good feet and quick feet. There's a lot of really good players who can move their feet really quick, but they don't know when to use them. Willie could slow down and speed up, and slow down and speed up. Now there aren't many guys alive that are that big with that amount of quickness that have the ability to govern their speed. I call it by speeding up and slowing down. And it's really a very rare, unique trait to have it. The one guy in last year's draft that had it is Jonah Williams. Um he was might have been the only guy in the draft that I thought could be there. And so it's a very unique trait that Willie had. And you put that with his massive size and strength balance. Um, it was great. Wentworth. I went down to will you guys remember what were you? Uh you were you scouting at the time that Wittworth came out. Yes, sir, I'd like to have that grade back. I like a Mulligan on that one. Here's what was gonna be. Here's what I'm gonna say right. Um. When Wittworth was coming out of L. S U, the reputation by everybody that I heard was, Okay, he's a guard. Maybe he can play right tackle, can't play left hand. Um. I went down to L. S U. I worked him out. I was there with another coach and when he said, what do you think Paul, I said, first round pick? He said, really, I said, what do you think he's at stubbnth round? I go, oh my god, There's never been a bigger very players I've ever seen in my life. All Right, When I first met Whitworth at the combine, he was being interviewed by Bill Muir, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, a terrific coaches now retired. I walked by and he was being interviewed and I pointed right at him, and I said, and he didn't know me. I pointed him. He was sitting at the table over the train station, you know where I'm talking about, the you know the terminal, you know, at the tables, And I said, Andrew Whitworth left tackle, first round traffick. And he looked at me like I was nuts. Now we took him early in the second round, right, I had a first round? Right up? This is what I saw, right, I saw Whitworth held the SEC record for the most games started of any player in this history as the Southeast Conference, and over that time gave up three sacks. And I said, m hmm, all right, Well, what don't people say, Well, okay, so there it is. There's production, right, there's production. And what didn't I see. Well people didn't see. Oh my god, he looks a little slow. Guys run around them. Well, I wouldn't tell s U. And here's what happened. They had the center line up, and then they had the guard line up right even with him his feet were they weren't back at all, right, tip away, the center's off, the guard's back a little bit, and then the tackles the farthest back right. Well at LSU, they had the center up, they had guard up, they had to tackle him. They're like in a straight line with the ball, and the defensive end ran around and what Worth was always behind him pushing on them right, And so I said, oh, well that's pretty easy. Fix. I said, what were your six eight? You get your feet as far back as you can bend over so that your helmet touches the belt of the center. He didn't even play from a classic pass proceeded. He played in two points. His two point looked almost like a three point because his feet were so back and his torso was so long that his belt line intersected the center. The center's belt line like when Dalton and Palmer and those guys for the quarterback was wret Worth was always behind them, right, But what did that do? That allowed him to take two full kick slides already before he even gets out of his stands, so he was way back. So that problem was eliminated, all right? Um, and then what was the next thing? They say, Oh my god? What was an unbelievable athlete? He was a junior tennis and golf champion. I go, really, and when we had a Superstars competition at the Bengals. You know, the quarterbacks weren't involved in this event, but we had to throw the vault through the hoop. Wit Worth one, the left tackle. Whitworth is a tremendous athlete. But I told him, I said, Whitworth, unfortunately, you look like hikobob Crane when you run around, all right. You just look like a big stiff. All right. This was when he was there, so I said, I said, Whitworth, you got to fool the scouts, right, because if you run out and you've got your shoulders down, you pump your arms and you look like you're running with form running. The scout don't know the difference. He's gonna take his pad and he's gonna putt says, oh athletic, you look at athletic. Right, But if you run around there and you swing your arms around, you stand up, straight up and down like a fit robot, they're gonna say, bad athlete. Now, the same person you just got, I tell him. I told all the players. I had a lot of players that made a lot of money when they became free agents, and I spent a lot of time on fooling the pro scout. All right, you got to fool the pro scout. You gotta make him think you're a better athlete than maybe you really are. So there's what worth. Let me tell you. I don't know if you need a guy. Both of those guys. In fact, I used the same word to define both those guys, the same phrase, which is about as high rating as I can give them both, because they were both the same this way current man, both of them, I mean, freaking man. I made you do. Hey, those two guys, they've very rarely got in a fighting practice because no one was gonna mess with those two guys, and when they did, it was pretty clear that no one's going to do it again. You know, coach, you have a unique perspective having coached both of those guys. I would like to know, because we're seeing a shift in the league. What are the differences between a left tackle and a prototypical right tackle. Well, I've never bought it, right, I've never bought it. I put William Anderson it right. Deackally had to block straight and right. He had to block, uh Green right at Lloyd. Excuse me, I forget which one was wished for. They were both good. He had to block, he had to block all the great players. You know, Um, I never bought it. I think that I think the right tack you have, you have two tackles. I've always had two tackles. You know. My tackles were William Anderson, Levi Jones right. The next stair was Stacy Andrews. Right. It was signed the biggest contract of eight tackle the straight league. Right and what were right? Andre Smith had some good years. Right. Those are my tackles, and they were my tackles for a long time. I've always had two tackles. You gotta have two tackles. Now. Some of them, well three and two of them were first round picks. Are three more first round picks. One was a second, one was a fourth. You know, so, uh, I think you got put the investment a little bit in your tackles, right, So I've never bought it. I think you've got to have I think you have good tackles. Um and in most cases, in most cases, the kid at Florida played right tackle coming out helped me with this name this year. You know he played right tackle. Yeah, yeah, Oh, Jeezy's the right tackle who says I think it's a pretty good athlete. He can go play left tackle. You can play left tackle. Question. We were just talking before you came on. Bucky was Bucky was around Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson. Um, I had it. Bucky was also around Will Shields with the with Kansas City play with him. I was around jo Joe Thomas and Jason Peters. Who's the best one coach? Who was the best offensive lineman you've ever put your eyes on? The two best offensive linemen? Are really interested? And Andrew Wi I'm not touching. I'm not touching that. Were you the one who let Hutchinson go? No, I had nothing to do with it. I was. I was in the room when we drafted him. I was in the room when we drafted him. Ever, let that one thing to wh let Husson shot. Just like the day. That's a good way to end it their coach, just like the day we let Whitworth and Zeitler go. I told him I quit, I'm not coming back after this, and I did. Uh, well, you were right, you were right on that one. Coach. Hey, we can't thank you enough for your time. Coach. Uh, I know you're busy speaking all over the place. You've got a book out there. Uh, where can folks? I'll find you on Twitter because I I've enjoyed following you on Twitter. Everybody likes to to show all the the up and coming pass rushers, and you're quick to show hey, this is not a great pass rush. This is terrible technique on the offensive line side of things. So where can folks find you on Twitter? At coach Paul alex There you go. Well at good Paul alex We thank you so much for your time today, Coach. We appreciate a let. I feel like we learned a lot today and that's the goal. Alright about good conversation there with coach Alexander. I think he was right. Bengals probably shouldn't have let Whitworth good Zeitler go. Probably not a good decision, not a good decision because at one point Man they may have had arguably the best offensive line and football. Um. I was in the knows like he's had a couple of good guys. I love his indecisions between having to pick between Andrew Whitworth Willie Anderson, two guys who have had a lot of success in the league, No doubt. Great conversation there with coach Paul Alexander. That now leads us to our next conversation with legendary offensive line coaches was offensive lineman a fascinating, fascinating person, had a chance to work with coach Mud with the Philadelphia Eagles. Trust me, you're gonna enjoy this our conversation with Howard Mudd when you're talking about offensive line play. Uh, there's nobody I respect more than coach Howard Mudd and coach I think people are familiar with your forty plus years coaching, but I don't know that everybody knows about your playing career. And that's where I wanted to start. Why why did you decide to play offensive line growing up? That's interesting? That is interesting. Well, I was involved in writing a book with a bunch of the offensive Lineman and all of that. And the one of the chapters is the offensive You don't choose the offensive line, it chooses you. I didn't come up with that. That was Ryan Dean, But that's usually what happens. I mean, I was played another position and all that, and I think I just grew to the size that well, you can't We're not gonna make you a runner. You're not gonna catch passes, You're not gonna you either can play on one side of the line or the other. Well, that's exactly what you did three times as a pro bowler in the All the All Decade team there in the sixties. What was your what was your playing style? Like? Coach? What was your what what was your game like? Well, I would say that I was kind of like I coach. I mean I was I was kind of an aggressive, snarley guy that I like, you know, mixing it up and not you know, I wasn't poking in the eye and all that. I'm just saying I was gonna get after you, stay after you, uh, that kind of thing. I would say that just the aggressive style and the coaching that that I've done all those years has kind of been the same was there something athletically in the background of guys that you saw a coach that, uh, maybe off the football field that you thought helped translate these guys footwork wise to the next level playing a different sport. Oh yeah, Yeah, there was a couple of things. One, uh, there was a sport that that that I'm thinking of two guys that I coached and there might be more that were wrestlers in high school. And they all had a sense of balance. Now you can say, well, do they have good feet? Well, wrestlers, you either if you don't have good feet and you don't have good balance, you're gonna get pinned and uh, and they have a sense of leverage. Well, so that's a characteristic that would be a you know, a comparable or you know, a sport. What I did with guys was people that had that tended to have stiffer feet, that they had their feet locked in place and you know, and they're characteristic style. I have a bunch of drills that I do for that. Um And I guess I'll stop right here and say, if I were going to characterize my coaching, I'd say I'm a finishing coach. You finish with your feet. I have more drills that after contact than those that are before and too before contact. Uh you know, you put them putter person in the in the position after contact and get them to start moving their feet. It's sometimes sometimes putting getting the bar, you get in the crowd and your jostle draw. It's not it's counterintuitive to to move your feet. What you want to do if you get pushed as you stop your feet and you try to wrestle with someone and you have the most efficient thing that you can do is when you when you get body the body, and whether that's passed or or the make a difference. But when you get body the body and you're stuck, start moving your feet. It's counterintuitive. And so we have drills that we you know, the interval between contact and drive and after drive, you know, you move your feet, move your feet, and I want to see it on video. Well, I guess I could say that. You know, this year, I'm gone back to work. I went back and looked at the stuff that we did here. It was two thousand nine, and those guys really knew how to move their feet, they know how to finish. They got to it. I love that one of the other notes I took down coach from from when we used to chat a little bit. Um, the rhythm of a block. You talk about fast slow, fast. For those that don't know what that means, can you explain that, Wow, you did remember all this stuff. I'm impressed. Um, try to take notes, coach. Oh you did, but you but it it resonated with you. Then there's a rhythm to a block if you're if you're when I say fast slow, when the when the ball is snapped. As the balls being snapped, you have to go somewhere. You have to go somewhere to make contact. Then you make contact, and then there's another rhythm. Okay, so this is a little strange, but this is the way I look at it in a different ways. You know, I'm different. When you're run blocking, you don't do you don't go fast. First, you go slow. Your first step or two might be slow to gather your your position and lower your center gravity. Then you you move youve fast quickly to make contact, and then you slow yourself down to maintain your your your leverage on the guy so that you don't lose contact. Because if you go into a run block and you're fast at the beginning, you might miss. You want to make contact and leverage that man the point of attack and get the pads under his And when you make contact, if you start making driving steps and you don't have the strength advantage, he's going to throw you off. So the most important thing is that after contact you maintain you maintain uh contact from UH so that you don't have to you don't have to start over. Don't let that guy stop your momentum. Okay, maintain your momentum. Let's run blocking and pass blocking. Interesting. I believe that you move somewhere, you go fast, and then you slow yourself down for the moment of contact and put your hands in there, put your head in there, put it whatever it is, and your feet are you know, but you you've you've gone fast. Settle was the word I used, which slows yourself your momentum down so it's fast. Then you settled. Then when you finish the guy, then you start moving your feet again or your body quickly, hands and feet to finish it. Okay. Jason Peters, who we both know, a lot of people know Jason Peters. He's a great player. So when I introduced this stuff to him in the past protection stuff. You know, We're go somewhere real quickly, and then then settle your feet, you know, settle you know, like I'm gonna come and crowd you. You got the ball in your hand, and I got to guard the basket, which is the quarterback. I'm gonna get real close and I'm gonna I'm going to uh boost in my body up so that I can redirect myself when you try to go around me. Okay, so I call that settling your feet fast, slow fast. Jason Peters called that soft feet when you get there, have soft feet. I just loved it. That's exactly what he looks like when he passed protects. And now that you put that kind of image in my mind, I'm thinking of just growing up, you know, going through high school and college and and listen to defensive coaches talk. You always talk about come to balance. You want to try and you know, if you're a linebacker, covern or running back and you want to you want to close the space as fast as you can, then you've got to come to balance. It sounds like past protecting. That's it's it's very similar, right, and so coming to balance is settling you're settling your momentum so that you have control over the next movement that you make reaction if you will. Where it's a it's a you know, hopefully it's appropriate. You've got close enough to do it. If he's a better athlete, you know are you probably don't have good control of it. But the point is is that coming to balance is exactly what I'm describing, and it's um getting yourself in a position so that you can redirect and uh and shut off that guy's angle to the to the ball carrier, or you can shut him shut off if you're a if you're a tackler, you come to balance. I call it settling so that you can redirect yourself and execute a tackle, or you can execute covering the guide that's he's making a move and you know you're you're a corner, or you're covering a guy and you can redirect yourself without without being out of control. Coach, what do you do timing wise? Now? I know you're getting back into it here and helping the colts out, but just seeing the way the game has changed, and look, I fully understand the time you spent in Annapolis. You guys threw it plenty, but it seems now teams throwing it more and more and more. How would you break up your time? You're limited in practice time right now in the NFL. If you're if people were listening and wondering, uh, in terms of breaking it up percentage wise, the amount of time you would spent on the run game versus the amount of time you would spend on the passing game. What would that look like in today's game? I think you you spend the most amount of time on the most difficult thing. The most difficult is pass protection. And even if it's an inordinate amount compared to if it's disproportionate or whatever, that that prasiology is two. If if you spend uh, let's say that individual time, practice time, that sort of thing. Um, if you throw the ball sixty of the time, I'd spend eighty percent of my time doing something in past protection. When I can pass protect, I feel so good about where I'm at because all of the body movements that are that are required or to react to the man and redirect myself, get myself in the right position, don't get faked out. I don't know what to do with each little movement he makes if he bullrushes me, I know how to do that. You know, I'm a maverick. I spin and hop and do all kinds of stuff. I do everything that I can to keep myself in front of that guy. Most of all of them are athletic things because the football I think, I don't think football is an offensive vironment isn't played with strength and power, is played with leverage, quickness, that's what it's played with. If you're strong and you're quick and agile and have balance, and you know, you got a Hall of Famer. Now you start getting to the elite, the rare, the rare. Actually, one of the guys I was just thinking of my head is a guy you're gonna be around a lot. Is this this Quintin Nelson who's got the aggressiveness and the raw strength, but then he can dance around if you want to do that as well, Right, And he's learning this year to be an athlete, be for content, and that's what that's kind of what we're charging him. Think about yourself as an athlete first, that all that strength and power and aggressiveness and all that that stuff was just great will come if you're in the right position. Your heads and the right you know, and you've got your your you've got the man, leverage your hands on the right place and started moving your feet. It's over for him because you've got so much talent, No question, coach, I know you gotta run. I want to get you one more question and then I'll let you go. But um looking in my just time and scouting. Got a chance to be around Jonathan Auden with the Ravens and Joe Thomas with the Browns. But I always thought Jason Peters was one that deserved to be up in that. In that conversation, he's I don't I've ever seen anybody with the combination of skills that he had. But the best one that you've you've had a chance to be around, coach, I don't want you to get yourself in trouble with your former guys here. Who is it? No, no, no, no, there's no question about There's no question. Walter Jones is the best that I think that ever played. Because he had the combination of all of the things you're talking about, he could play less than and because he always had something left at contact when the ball is mad, whatever he could reach anyone, he could reach, block a guy that's two men removed to the outside. Don't tell him he can't do that, and then and do it looking like he's comfortable, like he still had something left. And uh. He did everything with such great ease, and he did it right from the time he was a rookie. So there's one Hall of Famer. Okay, that's an h left guy. Hey, coach, I could do this for hours and hours and hours. I I can't thank you enough. It's always it's always a pleasure of mind to get a chance to to learn from you, take some notes, and hopefully we'll get better at evaluating this offensive line position. I really appreciate your time. Well, you're very welcome. Coach Mud is one of the most knowledgeable guys. And I'm talking not uh you know this decade, that decade we're talking about over a forty year period, there's nobody better to talk offensive lineman with than Howard Mudd. No. Absolutely, he has been able to get it done. He's been able to take a collection of a bunch of different guys, put him together and put out successful units. His look, his resume speaks for himself. But the work that he has done and the players that he's had uh that he's touched. I mean we've seen it reflected in their play. He has put his impact all on them. All Right, we're gonna split up the prototypes here because we end these episodes by giving you who we believe as a prototype at the position. But since we've kind of lumped offensive line altogether, why don't you give us a prototype on the outside, could be a right tackle or left tackle, And I'll give you who I believe is a prototype on the inside at either center guard. Look this tough, because this guy has slipped a little bit in terms of the injuries have taken some of his game away. But Tyron Smith, to me from the Dallas Cowboys is a prototype. We saw him at see he was big, he was long. He's nimble, great balance and body control, but also has the strength to finish you in the run game. But it's also an effective fast protect. He's everything that you want in a left houckle. Yeah, he's so lucky getting off the bus. He'd be the first one I can promise you that. Uh. And as athletic is all get out. I remember watching him at USC. He was played in the two and seventy eight twent seventy nine pounds something like that, um and has really grown into being a full grown man and when healthy, as good as it gets on the inside. Buck, I'm gonna go Quenton Nelson with the Colts coming off his rookie season. This is somebody we talked about so much in the run up to the draft. Before his his rookie campaign, I went on record and said he's the best run blocker I've ever evaluated. I'm not talking just guard, I'm saying offensive lineman period. I've never seen anybody do what he does in the run game, and he immediately did the exact same things at the NFL level. Now, that alone would not be enough to make your prototype in a passing league. Uh, this guy does that the run game, but that he can slide, redirect, bend all the things you want to do in past protection. So, man, I don't know if he'll ever find one like him over the next decade, but we're gonna try. That's the prototype in my opinion. Man, it is so hard to find these guys, do you league guys, but they still end out from from the pack. I think the big thing we know a good one when you see one and they typically have the same courtrays balanced by the control strength they can finish, and they can do a variety of different things as run blockers have also has pass porticks. Absolutely well. This has been a fun episode and wraps up the offensive side of the ball in our prototype series. If you haven't checked out the other episodes, I think you'll enjoy. We've got quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, offensive line and wait, I'm forgetting we still got tight ends. We still got tight ends to do. Not done with the y'all, No we're not. We got we gotta talk about those big basketball athletes that have kind of made a conversion to put on the pads. Yeah, we've got tight ends to come and then we will get over to the defensive side of the ball. Appreciate you guys listening. If you're just checking us out for the first time, do us a favorite, subscribe to the podcast. I do believe you'll enjoy it, rate us, review us. We do appreciate that as well. He's Bucky Brooks, I'm Daniel Jeremiah. We'll catch you next time right here on Move the Sticks. Thanks for downloading Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and he Brooks. For more, go to NFL dot com slash podcasts, Yeah,