NFL Daily with Gregg RosenthalGregg Rosenthal is joined by Jon Ledyard for a deep dive into this year's QB draft class. The guys start with a discuss about Cam Ward (01:30) and his fit with the Titans (08:00) followed by a look at Shedeur Sanders (11:15) and his best fit (18:30). The show is wrapped up with looks at Jaxson Dart (28:10), Jalen Milroe (35:00), Tyler Shough (41:20) and more!
Note: time codes approixmate.
Welcome to NFL Daily, where we're always trying not to reach for quarterbacks.
I'm Greg Rosenthal.
I'm in the Chris Westling podcast studio, and I am joined by one of the best minds in the podcasting writing game. It's John Ledyard. He's got the Audibles and Analytics substack. He's got a great podcast with Ali Connolly. John, What is happening?
Man? Not too much? Thank you for the kind words. First of all, always fun to be on here with you and talking some ball. I believe last time we talked we ranked in tiered tight ends. A lot of backlash for that, so I'm excited to I'm sure get no backlash for today's podcast.
No, and I don't even know if we're gonna rank it. We're gonna talk quarterback. So I've been not pimping but getting ready for this week now for a while saying, like you know, we're getting into the draft. It's been a slow process. I got the weekly show with Daniel Jeremiah. Audibles and Analytics is another one that people should check out with you and Ali, DJ and I are on Thursdays. But like now, it's go time. We are two and a half weeks out from the draft. Every day now is draft, and we're going to talk quarterbacks today and kind of keep it specifically two quarterbacks, and I'm not gonna put you and make you do a ranking, but we'll talk about good fits and we'll kind of order him in some sort of way. And I guess we might as well just start at the top now because we've talked draft. It's not like cam Ward has not come up on this show. But I don't I don't think we've dived deep into what makes him special? Kind of what was your journey with cam Ward as a prospect and where did you land in terms of like how special do you think he is?
Yeah, the profile is weird right away, right twenty three year old rookie. He'll be three different schools, so you're already like, O, guess maybe it's red flag right now.
One of the schools was Incarnate word, which yeah, yeah.
Which is necessarily what you traditionally think of as the trajectory. But you know, the multiple school thing, you know we're starting to move with that's more normal. Three is still you know, being an older rookiees And I to be honest with you, Greg, like people just didn't talk about caim Ward like a special should be the top overall pick even the beginning of the season. So to say it's come out of nowhere isn't fair because he's been on the radar for everybody for a long time. We've known the skill set and the traits are interesting. I think this year he got better in some really key ways though, which makes him you know, he's my top quarterback. I think he's most people's top quarterback the NFL. Generally, everything we hear is, yeah, this guy's going first, and almost every team has him first, and it's not that close to in a tier by himself type of guy and in this class I think now. I think one of the things that it's really interesting is one of the things he did really poorly in the past was managed the pocket, and this is still an area of growth for him and where he needs to continue to grow in a lot. But I mean, his pressure to Zach Ray went down this year fifteen point nine percent was a big step in the right direction for him. So that just it's the ability to manage the game a little bit better now. His footwork he still need some work in terms of being able to set up the right way. This guy is so lax and the details sometimes and he can get away within the college ball and he might be able to do it some of the NFL. Some of these guys do do it in the NFL, and he's a pretty great arm. I don't think he's quite that special so from a talent perspective, so I do think he needs to continue to develop in those ways. But watching some of the processing stuff get faster, and the other key thing, I think he just throws to every spot on the field like he will throw in breakers with anticipation, which to me show there's a lot of development and growth there. He's playing a little bit of a step ahead right now, so encouraging signs in the right direction and some really key areas of quarterback play this past season where why I think he's really not only is easy the best in the class, but he's moving in the right direction.
Right It is funny.
I love the draft community, and yet you really don't know where these players are going to land until pretty late in the process. I remember RG three, there was no one saying that he was gonna be going top two until very late in that season, and not to pick on him. But I remember like a podcast episode Jim Naggy was on who knows more about these prospects than anyone? He was running the Senior Bowl for many years, and he was on with Mickshaye and he was talking in the middle of this season, Hey, don't count on cam Ward as a first round pick. Like the reason he went back to school was teams were telling Amy was a fifth or sixth round pick if he was going to come out last year. He actually wasn't even going to be invited to the Senior Bowl, which is crazy to think. And now he's the number one overall pick, and A, you don't know how a player is going to develop, and then B you don't really know how teams are going to look at him. And I think when they look at his tape from this season and I dove into it, there's so much to be excited about. I mean, putting a far of comparison on someone is crazy, but because he definitely doesn't have like that arm, but in terms of the taking the chances, but enough of a pocket fe like a better scrambler and athlete than he is, like a runner like you, than he's sort of being given credit for and just making it all happen. Like I'm in Like he's going to add a lot of value to my life, John, That's what I care most about. I think he's going to be box office and he's gonna be a fun player to watch. And that level of chill that you described in terms of how relax he is back there, I think there is there's some negatives to it, but there's some positives to it as well. He's certainly like not afraid of the pass rush, and I think he plays in such a relaxed way it makes you think at least that mentally, I think he's he's got a lot going on where the game is not too fast for him, certainly after all that college experience.
Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is everything's just sort of slowed down for him, Like he just feels more confident. Even from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. I think we saw that a lot, Like there was a lot of notable things in the early in the season where he was drifting around in the pocket, he was a little bit unsure planning on time, and then as the season went on, he was playing his best ball. He was getting the ball more on time. So there's definitely things to work on. This is not the most home run quarterback prospect that we've seen there by any stretch of the imagination. There are things that he needs to get better at. There is bus potential here even I would think I would say, I don't know that that's not what I'm betting on happening, But I think it's important to acknowledge that it's more possible here than it is with a lot of qb ones and other drafts. Not necessarily because this draft is so bad, just sort of because who Ward is as a player. There are some things about his game that I said have improved, but ultimately he will throw it to the other team at times, and he will take risks with the ball that he shouldn't, and those sorts of things combined with if the pocket stuff doesn't get better, because right now, he's getting the ball out on time more, he's not taking sacks more than he wants to, but he's still making some questionable decisions, and he's still not setting up properly all the time. His setup is really kind of all over the place terms how he throws. He doesn't mind drifting back and throwing off his back foot, and he and Sanders honestly have some similarities in their weaknesses. They're different in terms of their strengths, but in some terms of their weaknesses. Ward can get away with some of those messy footwork things a little bit, but I don't think, like I said, that it's going to be quite at that level where it's so special doesn't matter what his feet look like. I still think he needs to get better at some of those details. So and if he doesn't, it's the type of thing that could lead to like pretty big lapses in offense where he's not going to be able to be just to manage the situation type of player. He's going to be a baller and that's either gonna work or it isn't. And so there is some bust potential just in his profile as a player.
Ray I'm trying to think of someone else that would just be described as as chill as he is.
I mean, Sanders has some of sure.
I mean Cam had a little bit of that that he was just so big that he sort of didn't care what was happening around it. Ryan Tannehill weirdly just was kind of chill back back there if he wanted, but not like the same, sort of like loose athlete. The thing is, if you're grading the flashes, you see it all. You do see anticipation. You do see him going through his reads. You see him kind of lock in and lock out in games. But that shows me like, Okay, maybe if the competition in the NFL, maybe he can lock in a little more consistency consistently. Let's think about the fit with the Titans, because I haven't really asked anyone about this or thought about it too much and don't think I'm the right person to give an answer for it. Him. With Brian Callahan, I feel like there hasn't been a lot of talk of like, Okay, how do you think that works? I'm not really sure what a Brian Callahan offense is, so that's part of the difficulty here. But how do you think, with what you know about Callahan and the Titans, like how that fits together?
It's really interesting because Callahan, you know, was with Burrow and then got to Tennessee and not that surprisingly, I guess, but trying to run totally different stuff than what he ran with Burrow, Like it wouldn't look anything like the offense the Bengals run. Not that not that really anybody looks like the offense the Bengals ran. So he I really have no idea. Like he was with Will Levis and that didn't work, and so it was kind of like, Okay, it was more traditional stuff. I think my guess is that that would be I think the thing with Callian is he'll build the offense around the player and Ward. Obviously you didn't work under center, So is a lot of like gonna be a lot of gun stuff. I think will look just like a spread it around the yard and throw it around everywhere, like Joe Burrow did. I don't think that's in the cards. To me, that would be really surprising if they made it look just like that. Is word going to have to do some more traditional quarterback stuff that he hasn't done before. I don't know. This is the most unknown fit of a top team in quarterback that I can remember in a long time, because I don't know how the Titans even in so recently. I don't think people thought they thought of him this way. I don't know how they see him. I don't know what they see as being the best fit for him. I don't think anything Callahan's really done in the past the past year with the Titans or with the Bengals is going to be particularly Maybe I'll be wrong, but I think we don't think it's going to be particularly informative to us in terms of guessing what he'll look like, what it'll look like with cam Ward, other than to say I think there will be a lot of the gun elements, but I bet that there's some more. I mean, they ran a lot. There's a lot of RPOs in Miami's offense, like you know, I think there'll be some of that still in Tennessee's offense as well. But I am fascinated to know how much he's going to ask him Ward to be more traditional. Is there going to be dropback stuff? Is there going to be play action stuff where he goes under center and like right, I really don't know if that's part of it. That's going to be so amazing to see if Ward can do that, because there's a guy who's been three different places and transformed himself and changed and adapted over the years. But that would be at another leap for him right out of the gate.
On paper, No, I mean meet him where he is, meet him where he is and build an offense around his strengths. And he was very good at the RPO stuff, and like I said, I think he'll be box office And then you keep adding that it's like it's like they did such a good job with Jayden and Daniels accentuating his strength. A very different player than Jade Daniels. He's gonna have a lot of turnovers. I mean, he just is as a rookie. But to me, I want a player that's gonna entertain me. And so maybe it's the Tennessee of it all, but he's there's like a little Cutler, Like I knew Cutler would entertain me as a pro and he absolutely did. And I think Ward might might end up fitting into that archetype of People have compared him a little bit to Jordan Love Either way, Like, I think he's going to be fun to watch and so he's going to be starting right away and hopefully they do meet him where he is.
All right, let's talk about Shoulder.
So the consensus second quarterback in this class, but I think the differing opinions are mostly about do you just group Shoulder with Jackson Dart and Tyler Shuck and the rest of this crew as like kind of a second group. I know our friend Nate Tice does, for instance, he just thinks the rest of the group are varying levels of day two dart throws and shoulders in that group. Or do you kind of see him a tier above not really thinking about where he's going to go because he's almost certainly going to go in the first round somewhere, I think, but just more of the total evaluation because it's such a hard he's a tricky evaluation.
He is.
He's an interesting player. I think the player that he most compares to. We didn't talk about this too much with Ward, I think, but with Sanders, I think the player most compares to is brock Purty at his best, if he can be at his peak. I think they're both guys who take a little bit of time to make decisions. They have sort of a moxie about how they play and a confidence about how they play. They like to hold the ball. They aren't gonna be amazing testing athletes. I don't think aybody wants them to be like, oh, they're amazing, Like they're just so athletic and so springy, and twitchy, and but when it comes to functional mobility for their position, I think they both have enough. Party is probably a little more athletic than Sanders, I think, but I think they have enough to manage and to get by. They do some un orthodox things in terms of how they manage the pocket and playing on time, but they throw really accurate balls, and they throw and they throw despite not having great arms, they throw the ball well. So I think they're If Sanders can reach his peak, it'll be something like brock Purty. Now, brock Perry's in a great situation. He's got some of the best teammates in the entire NFL that certainly he got some of the best coaching in the league. All that is aided the profile and what he's see somewhere in that probably twelve to eighteen range as terms the best quarterbacks in the league somewhere in there. So maybe that's the ceiling for Sanders, But I see him pretty similar doubt Nate does it sounds like and just that thinking that at least he and Dart are really different, really different, but maybe the same tier. To me, Sanders is sharp mentally, whereas Dart, I think, continues to need to develop from the neck up. And with Sanders, I love that he looks like he's played quarterback for a long time and that part, yeah, is natural to him. The accuracy in the ball plays in a natural but I think that there's real concerns over his arm strength and his time to throw in the pocket, just how long it takes him to make decisions. He knows what to do. He just likes to play this like hero mentality ball, where he's probably gonna take shots and he doesn't mind getting hit at all and he'll just let himself get lined up and cleaned out in that way. Yeah, it reminds me of Cam Newton and that he would just take massive shots to make plays. So I think Sanders has some of that without really any of the physical tools that.
Newton has right at some point that it's going to come back to get you just taking the types of hits that he did. And their offensive line was terrible overall, I mean it really was, especially at the tackles, but there were certainly plays where what you're talking about comes into play where he's the one really just inviting that pressure and he tries to be a playmaker and he's not a great playmaker. The best plays are definitely the ones that are in structure. It always worries me if you're betting on intangibles, and I just think it's such a hard evaluation because he's been coached the same way this whole time.
He is a good quarterback.
It's like, does Travis Hunter like even out like lifting him up because a lot of his long plays, Like Travis Hunter is making great plays on the ball on those plays. So to me, it's very difficult when you're betting on in tangibles. I do think he's gotten a bump from just it happens in some drafts, and it happens with some name value Occasionally, we'll have to wait till the draft actually happens. Occasionally, like the NFL sees him totally differently and we will be just talking about him falling down to the twenties. So it'd be interesting, by the way, with the forty nine ers, he was on the board for the forty nine ers, would they ever just like totally change course and be like, yeah, we're not going to give you that Conjack Brack pretty that would be fun.
I don't think they would, But uh, I don't I'm surprised you with the Niners these days. They're pretty, they're wild and kind of I think one of the craziest things about Sanders' profile he is one of the highest UH. I think he was tenth highest in the nationwalks all college quarterbacks. An average time to throw this past year to three point one to two seconds. This is average time to throw. This is also one of the highest RPO in screen heavy offenses in the league. How do you end up with that time to throw in an offense that has this many RPOs and screens in it? I mean, the offense is painfully, painfully simple, painfully poorly constructed.
Uh.
They had playmakers of some of these wide out spots and they really let those guys rip. But this offense is I mean, he's going to get to the NFL and be like, are you kidding me? All this structural stuff could help me. I mean, no play action. There's just so little in terms of what would aid him as a quarterback other than just get it. There's a place where he just gets the ball out quickly. But in terms of downfield stuff, he created so much stuff in the athletes. They had created so much stuff on their own There just wasn't a lot of things that helped them get to big stuff in their offense. It was a lot of out of structure stuff and he deserves credit for that. And some of the average time to throw is that kind of stuff. Some of it is just like I'm not going to play on time, like I'm playing my way, I'm making a play and I just the biggest thing to me is if he was an unbelievable talent, I would be like, yeah, I'm cool with that, like that, I can roll with that. Because the arm, the ball just dies all the time down the field, but not distance distance throws. People confuse armstraight, No, he can't throw it far. As soon as he throws it far in the NFL, people and be like they were worried about his arm. This about velocity when we're talking about armstrang and he drive the ball. And that's what I think is really it just lacking on tape all the time. And you wish it wasn't the case because you really love the makeup of the player and the toughness, his desire to put the team on his back when he knew the system wasn't great. But I just don't think the tools will translate to playing that way in the NFL, and I don't know if he can continue to play and the like. In the pro game. They're gonna ask him to throw the middle of the field on time of anticipation way more than this offense did where he's playing outside the numbers a lot. That's just kind of an unknowl Like, he didn't throw there a lot, and so what is that going to look like at the pro level when the offense he's in has way more in terms of how it attacks the field, So it's going to stress defenses way more. But I think it's also gonna ask him to do some things that we didn't see in college.
Yeah, the out of structure plays. You see the arm strength. That is a huge difference when you're watching Ward in him back to back, not that Ward is is Jordan Love in terms of just pure arm strength. But it's still a plus arm that gets it there. And you do see the ball die. There's a lot of contested catches, and that's from the pocket as well, whereas it's contested and you're kind of thinking, well, if it was someone else throwing, maybe it wouldn't be a contested catch a lot of tight throws for Sudar.
And yet if you.
Told me Andy Dalton with swag, like is an outcome, Like that's a good outcome for a late first round pick. Andy Dalton's had an incredible with that hair. He does have swag. Maybe early Andy Dallon, I should I should, right. So I've heard stories because I worked with Andrew Hawkins who was on those Bengals team, and he had aj Green, and he had who else was on that was? Who's Manzada on that t and Hawkins on that team, and they all respected the hell out of Andy Dalton. They all loved Dandy Dallton. So whether it was swag or not, he was he was a leader that that was and I and I think has got to give you that. So like, look if we're feeling like that's a four, But I don't think that's necessarily his floor. I think it could go in a number of directions because of those deep drops that you talked about with Camp two. Last thing on Shoudre is just kind of who who would you want to see him with. Let's say you're you are in his family and you it's not about the money in terms of the signing bonus. You just you just think I want him to land with the right system for him, Like is there a fit for for him or a few fits out there that you like.
He's one that's it's multi layered right system wise to would he work best with his one question? And then personality wise, like would he work with the Giants?
Just because he's like a big personality.
I mean I think, yeah, I think he's a big personality. I think he's his own person like unique from a personality perspective, where like Brian Dable, like what is he is he going to be able to roll with? Like who Sanders is and just the way he communicates and all those sorts of things, Like I actually think of it as a positive for Sanders. I but I think the fit matters because he isn't just your you're And this is a good thing I think, and it can be a really good thing a traditional mold at this position. Will dab will be able to roll with that? I don't know. Maybe he will, and.
He'd better be his careers on the line.
He's had a lot of quarterbacks, to be fair to Brian Dabele, going back to college, going back to Tom Brady if you want to and Josh, you know, you got to think if they took him, they'd have the conviction that they're that they're going to make that work. And I think it's not like Shitter isn't gonna want to be coach start or anything like that. So personalityway wasn't less worried. It's more just like does that fit or where would he fit?
Yeah? I think, I mean Pittsburgh's an interesting one that's been talked about a lot. I think from a personality perspective, that's a great fit. That's hard for me to say anybody like Arthur Smith's offense would be very different for him from what he's run at Colorado.
Now.
I think anything's going to be different, but that offense would require him to go under center. He would have to adjust to a lot of things. There's a lot of play action, a lot of shots like there are some things that could maybe work, but it would be a learning curve for him in some ways. Stefanski is one that I think in Cleveland would be interesting. He's kind of remade his offense a lot of different times, a lot of different ways for different players, So he has shown the desire to be flexible and me kind of meet who players are now. None of that worked with Sean Watson, and maybe mostly because he wasn't the player that he once was, so not the thing was going to work. But with Sanders, I think there is that ad layer of like, Okay, if this player is willing to buy in here and be a part of what we're doing, we'll change and we'll adapt the offense to fit like sort of things that he wants. So that's an interesting one to me. I don't think he's gonna go it too to Cleveland. I'm not exactly sure where he's gonna go. Before the Raiders got Gino Smith, I was actually kind of interested in that potential fit because I think he and Pete's personalities would also be really fun together and I would kind of love to see that. I have no idea how would go with Chip Kelly or what chip Kelly's even gonna run in the NFL, But so there's some interesting ones maybe, But I do think Cleveland, if it happens, maybe later in the draft. Like you say he's gonna go first Hunt, I think he will, but I'm maybe it's a trade back in I'm not totally convinced that there's a lot of teams that need him or value him. Maybe in the first round. Could he be the first pick in the second round? I mean, I would be interesting. Maybe unlikely, but it's possible.
I don't know why. I think the Rams are the floor. I mean, there's no way to know what the Rams are really thinking. I think he would. I think they're in the quarterback market in this draft class, and whether that's at twenty six or they have to move up. They've like moving up, but it's going to be tough for them to do so they gave up an extra they're missing a pick. They would be quite a luxury pick there at twenty six, but I could see it happening, and I think it'd be an interesting fit in that system. Let's take a quick break and we've broken down the top two and we'll get into the rest of the quarterbacks right after this.
Back on NFL Daily.
And yeah, looking at John here, it does remind me of that Tight Ends ranking show, which in my head at the time was going to be the first of like an off season positional ranking show on around the NFL, and unfortunately that didn't happen.
All my friends remind me all the time that I ruined everything.
No, we had nothing to do with John Ledyard.
Maybe we'll do it again though in terms of the NFL daily off season programming. But I'm locked in on the draft while I have you on the show, though, I do like, you know, taking us off track a little bit. You do follow the Steelers pretty close, and you just talked about Arthur Smith, like who would really fit in Arthur Smith offense?
And I do feel like there's a.
Dichotomy between maybe how Arthur Smith gets talked about sometimes nationally, like he's still skating on some of those Titans offenses, which now are like a little bit in the rear view mirror, and like, what is Arthur Smith really in twenty twenty five as someone that's that's breaking down the Steelers Because you do it on audibles and analytics, it's your substack, and you do that with Ali it's a great podcast, but you also do extra coverage on your own on the Steelers. So I am I'm curious where are we in the Arthur Smith experience because I'm getting more dubious by the year.
I will say that, yeah.
He's just not very good or very modern. I think is part of the problem, like that, you know, that's the thing. He thinks that the things he did in twenty nineteen are going to really succeed still in today's NFL, and it just changes too quickly, Like everything he's doing is outdated. I would even say it that tig it was close to being god like he had Derick Henry, like that's what he had and that guy was awesome, and they had some other thing. I mean, I think he I think they did a good job with what they had. But yeah, I mean that's not an offense that anybody's thinking, oh, you should replicate that in twenty twenty five, and he's thinking that, like that's what he wants to replicate. So you know, the early down runs and lots of first down runs. He's the second and long run guy. The play sequencing is an issue, and then I think the passing offense. Honestly, he gets ver he gets heralded is a run game guy. But the run games have been bad for years. If you look ep A per play.
Right, That's that's where my basic mind looks at. It's like the run game isn't happening. He had the people to do it even in Atlanta. Wasn't happening to the consistency that you would have wanted to, right, That's absolutely right. I'm curious who would fit I think would fit with that. That quarterback to me like, he's a guy that wants to go under center. He wants to run play action. He wants to rely on that part of it, which actually don't hate that part of it. I wish the play action was more threatening in terms of attack in the middle of the field, perhaps with a different quarterback. It would be first guy that comes to mind, obviously in this class. I think Will Howard would be really interesting to him. There would be some developmental stuff with other guys. I mean, but Jackson Dart and Will Howard are both guys that I think could be guys that if you're just saying who's the fit right now without needing a lot of molding or changing, both of those guys make sense.
Have gone under center a little bit. There's some play action ability to them. They sort of have the thing with things that he looks for from a trades perspective. He wants to be able to get the ball out on the field. Will Howard is not a big armed guy. He threw the deep ball really well last year, and so and I think both are guys. Dart is a little bit more interesting. We could talk more about him in a second. But I think Howard's a guy at least that if he was there in the third round that he would see is this guy will do what I tell him to do. And Russ didn't necessarily do that last year all the time, and I think, you know, there's always tedgy with people arouse. I don't know how much that's overblown. Fields did and he liked Fields, but Fields like wasn't capable, Like, he wasn't comfortable, he wasn't consistent, and so I think he's looking for somebody who can do those things consistently and follow his modeled approach. Hilarious that they're looking at Aaron Rodgers.
Right, I was gonna say, if you're looking for someone to do what is told Aaron Rodgers and Arthur Smith, that could be fun. I mean, they've both been paid contributors to McAfee. They've got that in common. They're both a little salty. It would be fun. Just from a content perspective. I'd be into that. And yes, Will Howard the Ohio State quarterback who will probably go in the middle rounds somewhere. His old coordinator, Chip Kelly is with the Raiders, so that's a connection that has been made and probably about the point in the draft where they'd think about taking a quarterback there. Let's talk Dart and maybe Howard too. But you mentioned Arthur Smith still trying to recreate the ideas that worked for him, like so well back six or seven years. That's like a life lesson thing too, like a there are authors that have two or three great books in them but that's all they have, or just even one great book in them, and that's all that have, and to me, it doesn't diminish how great that book was. And there's actors too that they have like a moment in time where they do what they did and it works amazingly for three to five years, but they're not going to go do anything else. And maybe maybe that is Arthur Smith a little bit. If you want to be a great all time coach, you have to be like Kyle shannoner McVeigh that within the box of what they do, or Belichick is always changing. The NFL is an evolutionary league. It is always changing. I think you guys do a really great job, you and Ali pointing how the league is changing on your podcast. But I don't know, Maybe Arthur Smith doesn't have a great second book.
No, it's a good point. I think that could be true. In keeping with your analogy, maybe Derrick Henry was the star actor and Arthur Smith was the supporting action.
Sure, maybe, sure, Pek Dereck Henry is a good place to start. Although it's certainly it was working and right. You know, I always have a soft spot for him because I always thought Ryan Tannehill in the right system was going to have a good career, and it took Arthur Smith to actually make it happen. So I thank Arthur for that. Let's talk Jackson Dart. Let's talk to Jackson Dart. Okay, there's been coms to like a jail and hurt. The thing about Dart and I put this to Daniel Jeremiah last week, but I'll put it to you too, Like there is a lot of projection there because what you don't see from him is some of the stuff you see from cam Ward and Shular Sanders, which is real quarterbacking. Like it it is just the things that they're going to ask him to do at the pro level in terms of going through his reads and anticipation in the middle of the field.
There's not like a ton of that on his tape.
So how do you when you're making the evaluation, work that into how you see him projecting forward?
Yeah, an offense to found space a lot in ill miss spread offense ares lots of that kind of stuff. You know. Pro defenses are a lot better at just attacking and eliminating offenses like that, especially from pressure perspective, which they struggled with. Honestly, it almost too dark gets crushed a lot tons of mocks. Even this guy, I mean, he will throw while he's about to get just destroyed. All three of these top guys, like no issues with them at all in terms of the toughness and the ability to make a throw while they're about to get cleaned out. Like, these guys are all pretty tough, made of the right stuff mentally for sure, you know. So the concern with Dart really is almost ultimated. People say he's not an elite talent. I think his tape as a passer reminds me a little bit of Justin Herbert at Oregon who I did not find that impressive, to be honest with you. I thought there were physical tools and moments and throws, but consistency wise from a processing standpoint, getting the ball out accuracy, Like I thought, there were a lot of issues, and I see some of those issues with Dart too. You know, I don't know whether he'll make the jump that Herbert did at the next level. I think that that doesn't happen with everybody, but the because they were from the spread so often teams all, right, get the ball out before we clean out, and sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. That made Dart speed up a little bit. There's a lot of times in which it's not necessarily playing fast. That maybe is the issue. I think it's more playing smart that's the issue. When the game script got to a point where he had to be the guy, it got pretty rough at times. So yeah, I'm a little bit scared of Jackson Dart because I just wonder, from the neck up, if there's enough right now to be able to win, Like he's the kind of guy where it could get to the league if teams haven't done their homework, or if they haven't it just isn't the same on the board as it is like when he gets in the in the building and is out on the field. I just wonder if it's gonna it could be too big for him and it could just be too fast for him, and I think that part could be paralyzing to him and some of the decision and the end of the Florida game is that it gets talked about, but it's legit like he's playing well that old game. He's rolling as soon as all right, you're the guy, go making drive, go win us the game. It's ugly, Greg, I mean, he's throwing the ball. The other team they dropped a couple of picks, like it's everything just make some down and falls apart. So you file those moments away. It's not the whole evaluation, but you think of it certainly. And I think he's I do think he's a good athlete too, and that part of it is the Hurts part that you mentioned. I think he can not a explosive guy like Hurts isn't that explosive, but has the ball carrying ability in the body armor. He's really stout in terms of his build. So there's some interesting things you can do with them. I'm not sure how long or if it's in the cards for him to be the guy for your team.
Yeah, unless you have a real vision for him. And I hate to be like, hey, he's not for me and then Sean McVay drafts him or something like that. It's like, clearly you are gonna have a vision for him if you take him. But him in particular, I feel like you would have had to done a lot of work with him in terms of the visits and really understanding what he's seen, because you don't see it. And I do knock him a little bit that he was in that same system for three years, so I want that. I want that thing to be mastered by the end of it. I want you to feel extremely comfortable and proficient and intelligent within that system by the end of it. And that's where I'm not really in on him. Whereas Shuder, You're saying, does he really have the athleticism to make up for what, you know, the style of play that he is And I get that, but I think you can see enough from the neck up that can I see him adjusting. I think Jackson Dart is like that, but to a lesser degree because he's obviously a good athlete. He's got some he's got a good arm, Like it's easy cheese out there. Like there's a couple of plays where he flips his hips and he's running to the left, and you're like, oh, that's awesome, that's great. But it's a lot of just one read or else. And I guess if I'm going to have one thing that I'm not gonna just project totally forward, that's it because I don't see it. I'm not smart enough at least from what we're doing, to really project that forward. And so I think you'd have to really get to the heart of like why he did what he did, and that's stuff to do.
From where we're sitting.
His pocket positioning is really good and that gives me some hope for him. Whereas the other two guys, I think they drift around and they make things harder for their lines at times because of where they are in the pocket. I think Dart is pretty consistently in the right spot in the pocket. He will move up when he needs to. He actually is a pretty good feel for pressure. Now. He's still despite that, ended up getting sacked a lot, I think because he didn't know necessarily where to go at the ball or the picture changed. I think he knew pressure was coming. He turns, he takes the ball with him like it's not like he's surprised by the hit, but he just doesn't get it out as much as he should. And so that's he's over two years in a row with over nineteen percent pressure to sack rates and very few throwaways if you look at his amount of times he gets out and throws it away compared to the other guys. So those things are kind of where I say, like, I think the bus potential year is high, because if you are constantly taking sacks and you're not thinking fast enough to get the ball out on time in the NFL, then you're just gonna get benched, like or you're not ready to play yet. So in a lot of RPOs in this off and trade to a lot of stuff helping him kind of get the ball, he has flashes of it. There is a couple plays I think they had a fourth down conversion against Florida where he goes one, two, three and he hits a deep crosser for a tight window for a big play, and it's like, man, like, that's it, Like if you could just go, but he's he that's so far the exception. He will stare down guys and he will not move through. He'll look at one side of the field only and forget about the other side. And so I just think there's a long way to go with him in terms of and maybe not a long way to go, Like maybe it's happens more naturally once he gets out of the ole miss and he adds different coaching. But the fact that you, as you said, it didn't happen yet gives me some pause and some concern with him.
Yeah, and the ball location is okay. It's the same with Ward, it was just okay. Sometimes is a little off, like he's always maybe it's just the timing where it just feels like he's.
A beat late.
And when I was making the Sanders comparison, I was kind of like, you need something to maybe make up for this stuff, and everything seems good enough. He's not Jalen hurts it as a runner. I mean, he's a good runner, but he's not that brings us to Milroe. Okay, So I've only watched so many quarterbacks here, and Jalen Milroe would be my fourth of the ones that I watched. And it's because if you put Jalen Milroe in the NFL, well you are, We're putting him in the NFL. How many quarterbacks in the NFL are better runners right now?
Right now?
Like if yeah, Lamar Jaden Daniels maybe is comfortably smaller, so I mean you're more hired risk. Probably those guys were awesome. I think he's better than Hurts already as a runner.
I mean Josh Allen Is.
I often say that is Josh Allen run is the most efficient play in football. But in terms of like even Lamar Is is like step a lot slower maybe than he was, although he kind of had it all back this year.
I'm thinking more.
Yeah, So honestly, he might be like Jalen Miller oh day one, might be the best riding quarterback in the NFL. And damn Like that alone is enough for me to like him better than any other quarterback that I've watched in this class, cause like maybe we're like, could he be a better version of Taysom Hill? I would take that over maybe any other quarterback in this class. Just that as a baseline. I don't think you should underrate that. That is an amazing starting point, because my god, is he a special runner and we can talk about the drawbacks and it's why he's not gonna get taken in the first round. Where look, if his season had ended John after the first four games of the season because he got.
Hurt or something like, where would he go?
Do you think, by the way, like just answer that thought experiment, would he be a first round to pick? Then?
I don't think so, just because of the vetting process. I think the wards so people get excited about him as a college player, and I think there's reason to be excited about him in the NFL too, But I wonder if the process would still bring out some of the warts in his game. And at the end of the day, teams once it's easy in the moment to get caught of me, Oh this guy's excited again, then teams have to be like, hold on a second. This guy had the highest like in the nation, like basically uncatchable throw rate, and like even like some of the passing stuff is.
Okay, give me the other side of it, give me the other side of it. Then let's give me the other Yeah.
I mean he is like he is truly one of the most unbelievable athletes in the league at this position. And the size too. In the leadership too. I mean that, I think that the intangibles are great too. However, Yeah, the accuracy stuff is a real concern. He did play the position faster this year. I don't know if he played it better. In fact, he maybe didn't, and so maybe that's more of a concern. But he, I mean, he really improved time to throw in some of those sorts of things. The actress, he was still an issue I think at different levels of the field. Also, just the fundamentally the way he manages the pocket, the way he manages the game is really sporadic. It's hard to be to feel like you have a reliable sense of what he's going to do in a given player, given situation. So I think he's difficult to coach, especially at a level where coaches are gonna be like, this is what we do do it for the most part, not maybe not all the mocking him to Pittsburgh thing that's very common right now, did he meet with them? Who's in that meeting? All that kind stuff like that's happening with him right now. Like it's really funny because it would be such a Tomlin pick, like I loves the personality of the player, like and that's kind of stuff Tomlin gravitates for it. It'd be such a funny fit in the offense. So everybody's trying to figure out where he goes. The reason we keep bringing up the same couple of teams is there really are only a couple of teams that need a quarterback. So it's probably gonna be a surprise team that takes a couple of these guys. But teams really feel like, yeah, this class week, Bren don't get who we want or we're not get a guy who can play. So I think he could go to any team because it's just sort of like a raw canvas in terms of what you're working with and his approach I think is going to be really good, and you know, the Alabama thing plus the personality I think is everybody's Could he could he be our Jalen Hurt some more explosive? You know? Could that be the case? And that's probably the best case scenario.
I'd say maybe for I mean that, yeah, that would be that would be incredible. I mean, he he is a next level athlete, and so I have a friend Ada Adam West, who you guys know if you listen to the show that Saints Block Party podcast. And by the way, he's been pumping up like dart to the Saints, like he would be excited about that, and they would be excited about that. I'm not liking that for anyone involved. But he was like, you're gonna love Milrow when you watch them, and of course I do, because how can you not be exciting watching him? And the thing I would just push back slightly on the passing, which is it's pretty erratic, it's pretty rare.
There were legitimate spots.
In his career where he had to make throws to win games and he made him. And so like, he's not gonna be a plus plus thrower and that's maybe gonna like limit his ceiling. But there were third and nine situations that he's playing Georgia this year and he has to make the throw and he did make them. So it's not like you're working with nothing as a thrower, and so I just it would have to be with the right fit, and it might be a third, fourth round. I'm not saying you would take him early. It might be with a team like the Cardinals who don't need anything right now, but are just like, hey, maybe in a couple of years, Jalen Milroe would be an interesting option, like instead of Kyler.
It might be like something like that.
But if you're telling me he's starting out his career as like a plus like version of Taysom Hill or something that comes in for a little bit Sean, like, I'm buying that as a mid round pick, that would be kind of fun.
Come on, John, as a mid round pick one hundred percent of yeah, like I would. I would be really in because there are a lot of things you're worth working with. And you said it like the big time throw rate. This guy really made a lot of high degree difficulty throws too. Hey, it isn't like he's never hit anybody on a pass or something like somebody gets talked about. I think the consistency at the position, which is I think the most underrated part of quarterback play is not the hind stuff with the consistency is where you really get concerned about him. Is that going to be able to evolve or grow in the NFL? But like, would you rather take a chance on somebody who's already as you said, starting from an unbelievable mobility perspective, or you know, we'll talk about him maybe a little bit. But like somebody like Tyler Shuck, who.
Combine at all, it's all happening. It's all happening.
Yeah, And I'm not like I would have I would have Milroe ahead of Jackson dark Ultimate. Not that I get why why he in a generic board, but just that in the terms of ways that I think different people are gonna want to miss in different types of ways, I would be more comfortable missing with Milroe. I feel like Jackson Dart's giving me too much like Drew Locke vibes of the type of quarterback where it doesn't work. Whereas if you have a vision of how Milroe could work, all right, let's throw Shuck in here too. So Tyler Shuck an older prospect at Louisville. He was in the same prospect class as Trevor Lawrence, which is outrageous and Justin and Justin Fields too, right, he was in that class too, even though he came out a year later. And so that to me is a little bit of a knock.
Give me, give me your Tyler Shuck thoughts, Give me your Tyler Shock.
And yet yeah, seven college seasons, and yet he has four hundred less career dropbacks than Jackson Dart says way less, way less than Sanders and camp Ward. He only has one thousand, ninety five dropbacks and six cold seasons, was injured during that seventh. He is one of the oldest players in the class, as we mentioned, will be twenty six as a rookie. However, he's also one of the least experienced. That is a tough combination in a position where experience matters greatly. Now I will say this, there are some plays and this is why people like Tyler Schuck. Everything is textbook greg backfoot hits, ball comes out anticipation, throw middle of the field on a dig right in the zone window. It's beautiful. And that's where the coach people love Tyler Schuck, where they're like, this guy does exactly what I asked for her to do. He plays on time. This is great, and he's talented. It's not like he's not talented. He is very talented. He's not just like a system guy. Like there are some beautiful throws he can move like. He is talented. I do want to say that while I'm about to kill him. He is yet and he has a good enough arm, he size, he's dropbacks under center, all the stuff that you know that the coach, the coach, draft people and the coaches in the league are like, this guy, could we could get him in the system, he could be okay for us. Every coach thinks there's scheme is gonna be enough and if they can just get a player in THEO, they'll run the scheme, they'll be fine. The problem is he just can't create. He's not a creator whatsoever. Thirty one throwaways this season, super high number. He's improvement in taking sacks is notable. But two things. His lack of creation is an immense problem in my opinion, because in the NFL, you're gonna be under pressure. So when you can't create under pressure and you don't have any desire to either. He was trying to get the ball out of your end all the time. That's an issue because you're gonna be in situation. So yeah, if he gets in a game and everything goes perfect in that game, he could be like the player of the week or something like that type of guy. Next week they blitz him and he's in trouble, and what does this guy do. It's been hurt a million times right all over his tape. Greg. He's falling away at the top of his ten, twelve yards deep in the pocket. He's trying to get as far away from the defensive line as possible. Pressure gets through even in his vicinity, and he's falling off his platform. He's falling away from contact. The ball's dying on him, he's trying to throw it away, he's panicking, he's turning up and taking a sack. It's just I just don't think the negative I think the negatives are so bad with him that I just don't think it's ever gonna be consistent enough. In the NFL. He'll be a backup because if for a team that hopefully doesn't need to play him that often, but because I think he'll impress in all the ways that you impress until the bullet star flying, but once the bullets star flying, I just think there's too many issues like this. The bad stuff is going to be really bad. Even if, like on paper, it makes sense that this guy could do what we want him to do, but I just don't think when you get in the game, there's not that same level of aptitude and stressful situation.
Yeah, you got to have a code at some point when you're evaluating these guys. What's your type, what do you like? And to me, it's pocket presence. It's the ability to not panic against pressure. Is probably the number one thing I'm most confident in my basic guys being able to recognize having watched all the quarterbacks that have coming into the league and then especially in the league, like just seeing that is the absolute number one thing that will unravel good quarterbacks, average quarterbacks, below average quarterbacks. It's what separates guys who have long careers. And that to me was just like a cross off for what you said, like the falling off, and I just didn't not my guy, It'll be someone's guy. Greg Goseell had him second, and I kind of get it. Where in this class after cam Ward, you could make the case of, depending on what you like, of six seven different types of guys. But in this case, I think we're right because I think it's just going to be a cross out for him in terms of being able to play against pressure. And we don't need to bury the kid. He is at ninety six in the consensus board, by the way, so he's some people probably have him even higher in that he might go second or third round. All right, of the rest of the guys, and we're going to wrap up here quickly, but I will give I just will give the floor to you those. I don't know if those are the consensus top five. We probably hit the consensus top four if Milroe's in that we mentioned Will Howard already, who could be a guy from Ohio State quinn Ewers. I feel like it's not been talked up throughout the process from Texas, but someone might like him. Dylan Gabriel from Oregon, Kyle McCord from Syracuse, Abe Riley Leonard, who who Nate Tice is still holding out like a little bit of hope for from Notre Dame. Is there any of the other quarterbacks that catch your eye the most, that you that you like or even just that you think you have something interesting to say about those guys?
Well, McCord is probably the interesting one. I guess I'm not really high on them. I do like Will Howard a little bit. I think he belongings in this conversation. I will say that with with this kind of next group, But you know, I mean there's a real path to me, where Will Howard's better than Jackson Dart eventually in the league, and maybe Sanders too. I think like that's possible because those guys have some like potentially fatal flaws, and Will Howard doesn't have any of the like high end stuff they have, but it doesn't maybe have those fatal flaws. So you know, it's so much of this is fit with these guys. Once you get to limited players, you get you get into massive fit conversations and fit questions. So I wouldn't be offended by anybody who ranks these guys in the same tier. I think so everybody else to me after the Sanders shook, Dart Howard kind of group in and Milro probably being in there too. If you're just like upside, yeah, like he's not as polished maybe some of them yet, but upside he could easily be better than all those guys. If or not, it wouldn't happen easily.
But you could disagree with me on my show, John, you can say that's a bad I'm just thinking want as a backup. He would be a fun backup, Like once you get him, you probably need about a year, but a fun backup that he gives you a different.
Look for a couple of games. Anyways, I'll shut up about I.
Know I would take Miller over Shuck for sure, and I would I think there's a real path to the other guys just not being good enough, and so I would be if the Steelers taken for whatever, I'll be really intrigued by that. Obviously the fit would be weird. Mccorda is the interesting one because I think he was just kind of an afterthought. He went to Syracuse and the numbers were better, but still people were talking about Now as you get closer and you start hearing people in the league talk, it's like, wait, you're gonna take this guy on the top one hundred? Is that?
Oh? Okay?
And he's a guy that can, like if you talk about Hydergow difficulty throws, he can make him. And he made it more of this past year at Syracuse than we even saw at Ohio State. It was interesting. It was it wasn't good enough to elevate the talent at Ohio State, but he didn't really need to write there's great talent there. So it was like, well, if he's not good enough with these guys, then he's not gonna be good enough Syracuse, and then he went to Syracuse and elevated the talent there. It was really it was very fascinating. So just to step in the right direction and the progress that he made, I think we'll have people intrigued because there's a big arm, not very mobile. I think there's a lot of concerns he's going to throw the ball the other team all the time. And so, you know, Mitchell Trubisky's been a common comp for him, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Is there a world in which Trubisky could have turned down to a better prob I don't think so. Teams might think so. I'm not particularly high on McCord, but to me, he's more interesting than Gabriel or yours or some of those other guys that maybe are going to be talked about in this range of the draft.
Well, he would certainly take Trubisky's career because he'd be a mid mid round pick that lasted in the league. Not that they would get the starts that that Trubisky got because of his draft status. I appreciate it. There's no need to try to force it is. It is a thing that happens with these drafts with the quarterbacks. The most notable recent example being twenty twenty two. Just looking at the consensus board, which it's it's funny to look back at now going into that draft, the consensus board among the draft Knicks had Malik Willis ten. He's on his second team and has found a great spot. Now he looks like one of the best backups in the league. But you know, he was at ten. Pickett was at fifteen, Ritter was at thirty one. He's on his third team. Kenny Pickett's on his third team. Matt Krall, who is now throwing the passes at the Common was thirty six. This is where it really got crazy. Howell was at forty six. Carson Strong was at seventy eight. So you don't need to just push up quarterbacks just because they're the quarterbacks. And it's not like there were you know, guys later in the draft other than Perty that that ended up making it happen.
But Perty did make it happen.
So the league. Wolves was my top quarterback that year and I think he was in the seventies on thee.
Yeah, you don't need to force it. It is closer to one of those years I.
Would say this class, I will say this is better.
Than Oh yeah, it's way better. I agree with that.
I think I think should have Sanders at worst is going to have a long career in the league. I'm excited about getting to watch cam Ward every Sunday. And then I do think Millroll's got a chance, and Dart certainly has a chance.
In some of these other guys, they got a chance.
John Ledyard, appreciate you coming on. Check out audibles and analytics with Ollie Connelly, any anything else you want you want to pump up, because look, if you're a Bucks fan, you're you're probably a lot of Bucks content, a lot of Steelers content, and then YouTube cover the entire league.
Yeah, Bucks and Steelers content. Lots of NFL draft scouting reports going up right now on the site. Just published like five safety reports. Allie and I did in depth podcasts about the safety class and the running back class this week, and we went through our tiers and rankings and evaluations. So lots of those kind of fun conversations happening there. We'll get corners next week, We'll get linebackers coming up here soon. Finish this thing out strong, going into the draft. So yeah, people are interesting.
You're not afraid to bury guys, you know, you just just bury him sometime. I guess it's the confidence that comes with like a jaw that's square. That John is posted here does burying these young men? No, I'm kidding. I like the honesty. You guys talk like like the scout drave like the front offices talk. Yes, they're all doing the same thing. It makes sense. All right, that's it for today's show. Hit the Music, Eric.
Uh.
We got a big week, so I mentioned we're really zeroing in on draft coverage. We've got our first mock draft of draft season, maybe the last, probably the last, with Nate Tice coming up on our Tuesday show, so stay tuned for that one. We got DJ later in the week. We got a great week. A guess Nick Schuck coming up to football's back didn't land it
