It was two ladies and gentlemen, the governor of Alaska and the next Vice President of the United States, Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin burst onto the national scene ten years ago, and nobody had seen anything quite like her. Thank You. Her coming out party was in St. Paul, Minnesota, at the Republican National Convention. I will be honored to accept your nomination for Vice President of the United States. One of the great convention speeches that anybody will ever deliver. I accepted Paul to help our nominee for president to serve and defend America. Her speech was better than John mccains. Her speech was the best speech of the convention. I might add that in small towns, we don't quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they're listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening. I was so happy for her. She nailed it. I ask you to join our cause and help America elect a great man as the next President of the United States. And after the party was over, it was time for Palin to hit the campaign trail and meet the press. Do you consider yourself a feminist. I do feminists who believes in equal rights, and I believe that women. This month marks ten years since my interview with Sarah Palin actually interviews plural. We had a total of four separate conversations. If it doesn't pass, what is the alternative that the as I say, in action is not an option. We have got to shore up our economy. This is crisis moment for America. Really, the rest of the world also looking to see what the impacts will be if America were to choose not to shore up what has happened on Wall Street because of the the ultimate adverse effects on Main Street, and then how that affects this globalization that we're a part of in our world. So the rest of the world really is I've done thousands of interviews during the course of my career, but this one perhaps had the greatest impact. It was everywhere all over the internet and oliver people for a long time. That is one of the most pathetic pieces of tape I have ever seen. For someone aspiring to one of the highest officers in this country. Palin is clearly out of leave and she has become, as you noted, an object of ridicule, in part because of that Katie Couric interview, which was a real turning point in her kid The interviews were even spoofed on s N. L Amy Pollard did her best Katie Curic, and famously, Tina Fey channeled Sarah Palin Katie, I'd like to use one of my lifelines. I'm sorry, I want to phone a friend. Sarah Palin was mocked because of what she didn't know, but maybe despite her lack of policy detail, she actually knew more about the American electorate than we realized. What if Sarah Palin was a sign of things to come? We tend to prefer candidates who don't talk about us. One way in Scranton and another way in San Francisco. This weekend next week and a two part special, we're looking back at the rise and fall of one of the most captivating candidates in recent memory. We'll talk about the interview that was literally heard around the world and the impact it had on the two thousand eight election. We'll also take a look at the American political scene today, Are you ready to make America great Again? And we'll consider the path Sarah Palin may have paved for the current President of the United States, God was the United States America and our next President of the United States, Donald J. Trump. Answer spinning Media answer spinning. This is gonna be sold much funding. So, Katie, back in two thousand and eight, as you know, I worked with you at CBS as your political producer, and we spend a lot of time getting ready for those interviews. And since then we've actually spent even more more time thinking and talking to people about those conversations. And Brian, we should mention that one person we didn't talk to for this podcast is Governor Palin herself, but not for lack of trying. We did reach out and we asked her if she'd like to participate, but we still haven't gotten a response. In order to understand Sarah Palin, you first need to understand the McCain campaign. Steve's here, How are you? How are We sat down with Steve Schmidt, a Republican strategist who had worked on the campaigns of George W. Bush and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I've never talked about any of this stuff in the first person. Steve first got involved in the McCain campaign back in two thousand and seven, when it looked like the Arizona Senator wasn't even going to be a serious contender for his party's presidential nomination. His campaign had collapsed in the summer of two thousand and seven, and he had gone from front runner to last play completely broke. The National Press Corps was assembled in Manchester waiting for him to arrive. He came in on a Southwest Airlines flight in the back in the middle seat, you know, when are you getting out of the race? And he called me, you know, and I helped lead, you know, a comeback that he was a big comeback in the history of presidential nominations, from last to first, but it was just completely overshadowed by the historic nature of the Hillary and the Obama race. The day that McCain becomes the nominee of the party, essentially there's thirty five people working for the campaign, were nine million dollars in debt, and the four senior people were all volunteers. I was a volunteer all the way through. By contrast, day that Obama becomes the nominee, there's two thousand people working on the campaign. There's hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank, it was like fighting the Death Star. And you know, by the time we get to the summer of oh eight, when I take over dated A responsibilities for the campaign, Barack Obama is in Berlin Um speaking to hundreds of thousands of screaming Germans in the Steuben plots wherever it is. Let me thank Chancellor Merkel, and thank you to the people of Germany for this extraordinary welcome. Thank you. You know we're watching this on TV on a day where McCain has the Straight Talk Express parked outside of literally Schmidt's sausage house. Schmitt's house, no relation to Steve Schmidt, who is part of our campaign, as we know, somewhere in Ohio, and there's six old ladies standing out there, right, boy, and they're like, you're in charge, right, You're to be in charge now. And so we came back over that summer really from a deficit of fourteen fifteen points, and we were by the time the Democratic Convention gets ready to go, we're in an even race. They came back in part by highlighting Obama's lack of experience. He's the biggest celebrity in the world, but is he ready to lead? I'm John McCain and I approved this message. Steve Schmidt was feeling pretty good about the gains the McCain campaign had made over the summer, but he still knew the chances of winning or slim. It was definitely a change election. There's been three times in the last you know, at that point a hundred and eight years, where the incoming president's party had gotten a third term. So we knew we were in difficult circumstances and we were going to have to do something big and to throw the ball. So remember that in two thousand eight, you have a flagging economy, a disastrous war in Iraq, and into R. W. Bush, a very unpopular incumbent Republican president, and here comes Barack Obama, who had defeated Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary and a huge upset. He was young, He gave these soaring speeches. His campaign's mantra of hope and change was electrifying voters, and he presented America with the legitimate possibility of electing the first African American president ever. So, yeah, Katie, I think it's safe to say that McCain's team was feeling the pressure. He said, we're not gonna win We're just we're gonna go to the bottom of the of the drink, so to speak, here really fast, no excitement, no sizzle. UM. And I said, our our choices sucked. This process has been bad. We don't have a viable choice now to do what we need to do politically. And I said, um to my ever lasting regret in these words slowed down in my mind to to this day. And I said, what about Sarah Palin? I said, I don't know much about her other than she's the most popular governor in the country. She's got an eighty six percent approval rating. She's gone after the oil companies. She's feuding with all these corrupt Alaska politicians, including the senators that McCain hates their guts. I said, we should check her out, and the rest is history. One of Steve Schmidt's closest colleagues during that campaign was Nicole Wallace. They'd worked together in California politics and for George W. Bush, it was Wallace who was assigned to help Sarah Palin prepare for the major moments of the campaign. How has it been ten years? I'm scarred as though it was yesterday. Well, let's talk about how you got those scars in the first place. Tell us a little bit about the first day you met Sarah Palin. What were your initial impressions. So I didn't know who her McCain had selected, and I tried to squeeze in a root canal, which is the kind of idiocy you engage in on presidential campaigns in between the two conventions. So I had raised home to New York to have a root canal, and they called and they said you have to be there for VP and ounce and UM. And I threw a fit. And I was on vicadin and antibiotics and out of my mind. And I and I take a flight and we drive to Middletale and I pulled up in front of it and I said, there is no way Steve Schmidt is staying here. This place is such a dumb We get out and and Steve and Salter outside and Salter smoking like two cigarettes with one hand, and I'm like, oh my god, what are we done? And they they threw open the door, and I'm three sheets to the wind on vicadin. And I stared at her and I think, I think of who is this? You know, she's beautiful, but who is this? And and Steve said, Nicole, meet the next Vice President of the United States, Sarah Palin from the great State of Alaska. And I said, and I said, nice to meet you. Congratulations. She had on a black fleece and a black mini skirt and she was just stunning and charming and charismatic. And I talked to her for a minute and I said, excuse me, and I walked out, and Steve followed me out, and he said, what do you think And I said, oh, she's great. She seems great. And he said there's a couple of things. It's not going to be smooth. And I said, well, I said, well, you know, the daughter is pregnant. And I said, oh, okay, and I said she's sixteen. I said okay, and then he and he said, you know, he gave me a couple other red flags. And I said, oh, yeah, I'm sure everything will work out. And and she was. You know, she was a surprise to me, as she was a surprise to the country, a surprise to Wallace because she knew who McCain's first choice for vice president actually was. The idea was that McCain was going to go out and he was going to say Barack Obama is a good man, and I think he's gonna be President of the United States someday, but not yet. He's not ready, and we have some serious problems in this country. And then say, I'm seventy two years old. I've spent every hour of my adult life in service to the country, and if the American people so honor me with it, I have one last mission. For that mission, I've asked a great American, a great member of the Democratic Party, to stand with me, Senator Joe Lieberman. I'm going to serve one term only, and we thought we had a chance with that. How close did you come to extreme? Became extremely close. You might recall, Joe Lieberman was besties with John McCain and along with Senator Lindsey Graham, they were called the Three Amigos. Graham was so excited about the Lieberman idea he just couldn't keep it to himself. So what happened was Lindsey Graham um floated this idea out at a meeting somewhere in South Carolina with a lot of hardcore conservatives, and you know, the answer was predictable, and literally within hours, you know, President Bush had called Rove had called um your Russ Limbaud called Hannity, and so we said, I can't do it. So to be clear, but for Lindsay Graham's leak, the ticket would have been McCain and Lieberman. There would have been unhappiness, there may have been controlled rioting, but I think we would have gotten it through. So the base of the party was having none of Joe Lieberman. But John McCain was still ready to do something big and bold. Was this a real hail Mary? Yeah? For sure. He felt like there was this little sliver of the electorate that might be available. Um uh, people that that that had been really hungry for a female Canada and Hillary Clinton. And you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't lay at all on that. I think there were a lot of things about Sarah Palin that appealed to John McCain, the maverick. But but certainly, you know, putting a woman on the ticket. It turned out to be important to him when he selected her. Meanwhile, the Obama campaign learned of the choice as they wrapped up their convention. Here's Obama chief strategist David axel Rod and we got on the plane leaving Denver the campaign plane and I got on my BlackBerry, which is what we were carrying at the time, the news that, uh, Sarah Palin had been chosen as the running mate. And when you got that news, what was your reaction. I was surprised. We had been doing research on I think seven potential running mates for John McCain. She was not one of them. I really didn't know that much about her. I will say I went up to the front of the plane and I grabbed Obama and I told him, you know, he's big Sarah Palin and m Biden ran over after a while and so what's going on? And I told him and he said, who's Sarah Palin? Yeah. I remember Senator Obama saying, in his analytical way, now, that's very interesting why I think he did that. And he's running through the reasons in his own head. She's a woman, she's an outsider, represents change. And then he paused and he said, but you know, he said, this running for president thing, this is tough. He said, you know, I think I'm a reasonably smart guy. And it took me probably six months before I was a halfway decent candidate. Uh, you know, maybe she's the greatest politician since Ronald Reagan. And she could come right out of it Alaska and handle this Maelstrom, he said. But I'd give this about a month and then we'll know. And I am especially proud to say in the week we celebrate the anniversary of women's suffrage, devoted wife and a mother of five, she's got the great integrity, good sense, and fierce devotion to the common good. That is exactly what we need in Washington today. I know that it will demand the best that I have to give, and I promise nothing less. I just thought, I don't know how this is gonna work out, and I said so publicly, and I was told quite explicitly. And I won't tell you a boy who to shut the hell up. That's a long time Republican polster and TV pundit, Frank Lents. He actually spends a lot of time out in the country talking to voters. So why do you think she was picked? I think she was picked because people like Bill Crystal thought she'd be amazing. Uh. There are a number of stories that were positive about her. In the Weekly stand. Udered that Fox News had talked about her, and there was that pressure from the conservative intelligentsia that they should go with it, John McCain should go with someone who wasn't necessarily from the intelligencia, that they should go with someone who could really connect because everyone knew that Barack Obama could connect. This is the time when they started to say among Republicans that they wanted to choose someone who could relate to people in the phone book rather than people who taught at Harvard, Yale or Princeton. But the boys were doing, we're out chopping wood, and we're out hunting and fishing and filling our freezer with good while to lasting game to feed our family. So it kind of started with but we've never had it in this kind of package before. We never had someone who actually did pick up a gun and shoot bears. We never had someone who could skin a fish or some of the phrases that she used fish whatever you gotta fish, skin of fish. I hate fish, so you gotta understand I would find it morally and physically reprehensible to do anything with a fish. But she could. And that was what was different about her. She was real, She was she was every American, and she was approachable. She was relatable, and that is not typical. She's not she's not from these parts, and she's not from Washington. But when you get to know her, you're gonna be as impressed as I am. Tonight, we are still looking at a major hurricane. There's no change there. The choice of Sarah Palin was announced on a Friday, and her first big test was the Republican National Convention, which was supposed to start the following Monday, but it could be up to twelve to six a storm surge. There was a Category five hurricane that was forecast to hit New Orleans on the day that Bush and Cheney were both speaking at the Republican Convention with approval levels. It was also the third anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, which served as yet another reminder of the GOP's very unpopular incumbent. I was like, you know what, when is somebody to tell me? The Straight Talk Express hit the bubonic plague bus right and then wiped out the city at Charleston. I mean, it was just you couldn't you couldn't make it up. It was the most intensive kind of communications crisis experience I've had in my life. After a rocky start, the convention was back on course. Let's get John McCain and say her pent elected. It was day three. Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, and Mike Huckabee, all men. John McCain beat in the primary spoke, and then it was Palin's turn. The stakes could not have been higher, and I'm backstage with McCain, who'se boy, goes, how's she gonna do in the speech? I was like, it's it's gonna be okay, um, not believing that necessarily right, ladies and gentlemen, the governor of Alaska. I don't ever ever told the story, but I walked her onto the stage and she was holding my hand and she had tea, and the last thing she did was hand me her tea, and then I let go of her hand and she goes to have to go out there now. I said, she's gonna go out there now, it's gonna be great, and oh god, it gives me like the same like tightness in my chest ten years later. But she went out there and I was standing so close to her that I was reading the prompt or alongside her, and at one point someone held up a sign and covered the prompter and I went, oh fuck, it's like don't cover the prompter, and Sarah Palin without missing a beat. That was when she said, I love those hockey moms. You know they say the difference between a hockey mom and a pit bull lipstick. That wasn't in the speed though it was a fan held up a sign and covered her prompter for a minute, and I, you know, died a thousand deaths in that moment. That impromptu zinger had convention goers eating out of Palin's hand. Katie, you and I were there, and as you know, the speech was both funny and very moving. No matter how you feel about Sarah Palin today back then, if you were in that convention hall or watching on TV, she definitely hit it out of the park. Our nominee for president is a true profile and courage and like that are hard to come by. He's a man who wore the uniform of his country for twenty two years and refused to break faith with those troops in Iraq who now have brought victory within sight. And as the mother of one of those troops, that is exactly the kind of man I want as commander in ch I was in the back room with with John McCain. Here's Steve Schmidt again in about thirty seconds. In a minute in he goes, she's good, she's good, she's good. Another minute it was, and she's great, great. You know by the time another couple of minutes and he's like, she's she's she's she's sucking great. Meanwhile, poster Frank Lantz was up in the stands. I was in the box with the big donors. And I need to be careful about this because many of them have been married to or even three times. And when they saw her step out with a the shortest skirt ever that anyone has worn at a national well, let us just say that they remarked verbally about how short it was. So perceptions, reality and politics. If that's what they perceive, its ok. And they said things that today might have gotten them into trouble. But they were mesmerized by her. The convention was mesmerized by her. I guess, I guess a small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities. Here's a little news flash for those reporters and commentators. I'm not going to Washington to seek their good opinion. I'm going to Washington and to serve the people of this great country. To this day, the loudest noise I have ever heard in my life created by human beings, was the sound of political ecstasy unleashed by one of the great convention speeches that anybody will ever deliver, Join our cause and help America elect a great man as the next president of the United States. She electrified that Republican convention. Everyone's high fiving each other. All the guys in that booth thought, this is going to be the next Margaret Thatcher, only approachable and relatable. I can't begin to illustrate just how excited the people in the box and all the people around me that this was the choice everyone walked out of They're thinking this may have been the most important speech that they had ever seen. And I remember afterwards, I saw John McCain too, and he he said the same thing. You know, she did great. And I said her prompter went down. He said it did and I said, yeah, it was blocked at one point and went down at one point. He goes, oh my god, I would have been fucked. I mean, you know, John McCain was so impressed by her, and I think she she had this much needed infusion of confidence, and when McCain came out after her speech, he actually asked the crowd, don't you think we made the right choice for the next vice President of the United States. But after the teleprompters were packed up and the hockey Mom signs were gathered off the convention floor, that question still remained. Did John McCain make the right choice for vice President? After the break, we'll get into what happened and what we were thinking when I sat down with Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin represents the loss mother Mayor, Moose, Hunter and Maverick joined me at a welcome for the next five president of the United States, Come Sarah. After her extraordinary performance at the convention, Sarah Palin continued to wow the crowds at Raleigh, thank you after rally, Wlorida are ready to send us to d C. After rally, I feel like I am at home because I see the car hearts and the steel tone boots. But it was also time for her to face a tougher audience journalists and Katie. As soon as Palin was picked, of course, we started trying to land an interview. Yeah, I was determined to sit down and face Sarah Palin one on one not to quote get her, but really to learn more about her and let the American people see who this person really was. McCain's team felt the same way. They thought it was a rite of passage for political candidates. Once again, here's Nicole Wallace. I do remember thinking it was important to do the places with the most reach, and so I remember the two networks that we settled on for ABC and CBS. Let's talk about our relationship. You were a CBS News political analysts and then you went on leave or left to work for the McCain campaign. So you and I did have a personal relationship, but that really didn't have anything to do with this, right. This is one of the funniest things about how Palin sort of internalized it. In any other campaign, it is viewed as sort of an asset. You worked for Katie. You understand the kinds of things she's interested in. The idea that either one of us would betray our professions, that that that I would, you know, put my finger on the scale for you and not the ticket is such a misunderstanding of how it works. I had an insight into the things that you asked any politician, the things that were of interest to you. I worked for her and tried to do my best to use that insight into what you like to cover, on what you were interested in, and I understood that you'd asked things that hadn't been asked before. With big interviews lined up, the campaign started prepping Palin, and almost immediately Steve Schmidt realized there was a lot of work to do. So I get on the bus and I say, um, you're gonna meet meeting your foreign policy briefing team later today. I said, I just want to start. I just want to talk to you narratively about the counterinsurgency strategy underway in Iraq. Twenty minutes later, I was like, somebody get me a map, and I was like, this is Iraq, this is Afghanistan. These are the people who lived in caves who came here on nine eleven and attacked us. No, they weren't from Iraq that we attacked them. Did she think they were from A Yeah, yeah, for sure, she thought the people responsible for nine eleven. So I'm having a conversation you know where she's thinking about. You know, it's the queen that the president would deal with on any one of a number of issues. And you know, I've kind of blocked this out. I recall being physically sick, um walking off of the bus into a bathroom, um over it. But was was shocked, scared, shitless. Um. I couldn't believe it. The first time a doctor. It was obvious that she had not been not just a participant in any of the policy debates that had transpired in the previous five to ten years, but she hadn't paid attention to them. You know, this is kind of the occasion where there's tough conversation. I was. I was really angry, but you know, as as they say, we had to fix it. We had a we had a preparer, and um, you know, we had to get ready for you know, these first national interviews. So Katie, we should step back for a second and talk not just about the position Sarah Palin was in at the time, but the position you were in at the time. Do we have to Frankly, it was a tough period for me. After fifteen years at the Today Show, I was brought on by CBS to try to turn around the Evening News, which PS had been in third place for many, many years before I arrived five. There was a lot of hype around my hiring, and in retrospect, I think we may have tried to change too much, too quickly. But the result was even though we brought in a younger audience and I was proud of the work we did and by the way the awards we won, I really couldn't dramatically improve the ratings, and because of that I was getting some of the worst press of my life. I also think there might have been some sexism involved, but that's a whole other podcast. I have to agree with you on that, Katie. I mean, I remember the incessant coverage of your hair and your clothes, and anyway, as you say, that's a different show at a different time. Those were some dark days. I remember sitting at my kitchen table one night. I was so upset I might have been crying over my pasta, and my daughter Carrie said, Mom, don't forget what Samantha says on sex in the City. If I listened to what every bit in New York said about me, I'd never leave the house. Could you let your ten year old watch that? I know I really shouldn't have done that, but I have to say it did make me feel better, and so we were really eager to get the first interview with Sarah Palin and Brian. As you remember, we had actually scored the third interview with her. I remember being pretty upset about that. Yeah, I remember we were all very piste to put it mildly anyway. The first interview went to Charlie Gibson of ABC News. Do you agree with the Bush doctrine in what respect? Charlie? The second went to Sean Hannity at Fox. One of the big big benefits of the job as you get a really big plane. My husband, he's a pilot, but I would have to convince him. Also, we can't be getting around anymore in our little Piper super cub. We'd be used in that air forced outside your house. The larger than life. Rick Kaplan, who's a real legend in the TV news business, was the executive producer of the CBS Evening News. When Gibson got his interview, and then we said, oh god, we're not first, and and then after watching it, you knew and we hoped we had room there because there was a lot of stuff that was not done right by by them. I remember feeling like this was a really important interview, and the stakes couldn't have been higher, Katie. Did you feel that way at the time, definitely, Brian. I knew it would get a lot of attention, and I would get a lot of attention. I really wanted to do a good job, not only for me, but also for the electorate, because I wanted them to get a sense of Sarah Palin's understanding of a number of important issues, where she stood how she would lead. And it sounds almost precious to say now, but it was a very divided country even back then, and the partisanship was so intense. I wanted to be viewed as an honest broker who asked fair questions. I also remember being super conscious of my facial expressions that I would not look at her skeptically or cock my head like a dog hearing a high pitched noise. I wasn't going to do anything that might convey a sense of judging her or being patronizing or reacting to anything she said. So I really was intent on being completely expressionless. I remember we spent three or four days in the den of your apartment in New York. You called this place the Red Room, which because it was painted red. Maybe a little bit of a red Room of Pain theme for you anyway, for me for sure. Anyway, we were trying to read everything Palin had ever said or written. We were trying to figure out what hadn't been asked of her before. And you must have read what hundreds of articles, including some from Alaska newspapers. Oh my god, I remember doing nexus searches of local Alaska articles back when she was mayor of was Silla. My god, you're nothing if not thorough. I remember. We also tried to put you in touch with the smartest people we could find. That's right. I called a number of former top government and officials, Democrats and Republicans because I wanted to find out what they thought I should ask. And the best advice I think I got was from former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, who said, just let her talk because people don't know her and people don't know what she believes. And I thought that was very good advice. So, while we were in the Red Room prepping our side of the interview, across New York City, Nicole Wallace was working with Sarah Palin. I went to brief for the night before at a hotel and I remember walking down the street with my bag and it was like rumbling over the cracks, and and her press aids walked out like shaking their heads, looking shell shocked. I said, how to go. They said, not good, good luck, And that left me along with her. And she carried around the stack of cards like almost eight inches tall, with all these things that she was trying to memorize on them, and I said, give me the cards, and I said, let's just talk. And I tried talking her through. You know, she hadn't really answered many questions about social issues, she hadn't answered many questions about Hillary. She she had said some sort of interesting and not fully formed things about Russia. Because this really was the focus of this first interview was really foreign policy, because it was following her visit at the u N talking to world leaders. I mean, it was an opportunity for her to sort of clean up some of the things she'd said about Russia, and so so I remember trying to brief her and she was just blank. I think she was tapped out. I think she was drained. She she was on a plane, and so she was watching the coverage of herself incessantly in a loop and it was in her head. She was rattled. And so I remember the night before trying to get her to focus on the interview. I had no luck briefing her on any of the foreign policy stuff. John at that point was really concerned about Putin and Russia. UM, so I think that got in her head in a weird way. She ended up saying something to you about Russia poconists in the eye or somethingwhere it is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that and I is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there, they are right next to um to our state uh PTSD. The evening before she was essentially catatonic. That morning of the interview. She was throwing her clothes around the room, throwing hangars at people, scrubbing makeup off her face, in a in a state of real distress, incredibly cruel, mean, vicious personal allegend, conspiracies attacks, everyone is out together. And and that was before the interview, right, and they said, you know, what, what are we gonna? What are we gonna do? You know? Was she ready to do this? And kind of what's what's the choice? Right? What's the choice? I don't know that we should have canceled it or or not. So obviously they didn't cancel Katie, what do you remember about the day of the first interview about meeting Sarah Palin? I think I first met her Brian when she was coming out of her hotel room, and she was quite beautiful, very dynamic, very warm, and seemed to be pretty relaxed. I remember she was really friendly with a number of the crew guys, and you and I could name a lot of politicians who aren't that friendly with the crew. So I remember being impressed by that. Oh and one other thing we should mention. The first interview was supposed to be about foreign policy, but at that time the economy was entering the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. It was a manic Monday in the financial market. Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy, breaking news here. Stocks all around the world are taking because of the crisis on Wall Street. So of course I had to ask a question about that. You've said, quote John McCain will reform the way Wall Street does business other than supporting stricter regulations of Fannie Mae and Freddie mac two years ago, can you give us any more examples of his leading the charge for more oversight. I think that the example that you just cided with his warnings two years ago about Fannie and Freddie, that that's paramount. That's more than a heck of a lot of other senators and representatives did for us. But he's been in Congress for twenty six years, he's been chairman of the powerful Commerce Committee, and he is almost always cited with less regulation, not more. He's also known as the Maverick, though taken shots from his own party and certainly taken shots from the other party trying to get people to understand what he's been talking about the need to reform government. I'm just gonna ask you one more time not to belabor the point specific examples in his twenty six years of pushing for more regulations. I'll try to find you someone. I'll bring him to you. She just looks so unsure, Like if if you have bravado about your ignorance, that's one thing to the voter. But if you look as rattled by your ignorance as she made me feel about her ignorance, it reads his instability. And I thought that's what she displayed with you, Katie, as you watched Sarah Palin's struggle, what were you thinking about? Well, I couldn't help but feel sorry for her. Obviously she was out of her depth when it came to a lot of important policy issues, and you'd have to have ice water running through your veins if you didn't feel some compassion for her. But then, as if I was going through the stages of grief, I got a little angry at John McCain and questioned his judgment and why he picked somebody who was clearly not ready for prime time. I'll never forget. During the interview, I was sitting next to a press aide for the McCain campaign and he was texting someone and I was close enough that I could actually see the screen of his BlackBerry. He was texting, this is a disaster, and there was actually Katie a more colorful word before disaster. But I'm too much reproved to repeat it on the show. But go ahead, Brian, Let's just say it rhymes with ducking Katie. And I went straight from the interview with you and her to McCain's hotwe room and I said, I need you to call her, and he said why, I said, just call her. Until her SI a good job with Katie and he said did she? I said, I don't think so. And he said to Katie Live, I go, yeah, maybe I'll not fail it off the news do it, And in fact he did. McCain canceled on David Letterman and went on the Evening News to talk about his decision to temporarily suspend his campaign. And by the way, David Letterman was none too pleased about this and spent a good nine minutes railing about it on his show. But he had to cancel the show because he's suspending his campaign because the economy is exploding. So the first interview ends. Everyone knows it was a disaster for Sarah Palin, but there was another interview scheduled and Katie you recently asked Steve Schmidt about their decision then to go ahead with it. Why did you agree to let her do that second interview? Well, because if you don't do the second interview and have any recovery from the from the first one, then the first one is cemented in there. Right, is just like when Rocky fought Mr T and Rocky three and got his ass kicked? Right? Is there how to be a rematch, and the way you dealt with the first one was by winning the rematch in the second one with a competent performance, Katie, I love the Rocky three comparison. I guess that makes you Mr T to whom you're often compared, pity the fool. So Palin gets back in the ring ding ding ding nice and in this round there is perhaps the most famous exchange of all. Yeah, you know everyone asked me about this moment. If they remember a question from the interview, it's this one. It was during a walk and talk following a rally in Ohio. We were just actually getting b roll of the two of us. She had already done one interview, and I could tell she was getting pretty sick of me. She seemed to have such strong views. I wanted to know where they came from, so I asked her what she read and when it comes to establishing your worldview, I was curious what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this to stay informed and to understand I've wrote most of them again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media like well Coming specifically, I'm curious that you um all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years. Um, I have. I have a vast variety of sources where we get to our news to Alaska isn't a foreign country where it's kind of suggested it seems like, Wow, how could you keep in touch with with the rest of Washington. Do you see me be thinking and doing when you live up there in Alaska? Believe me, Alaska is like a microcosm of America. And the interesting thing is that earlier that day we saw Sarah Palin on her campaign plane reading a print copy of The New York Times, so I think at least occasionally she read newspapers. What I still can't figure out is why didn't she just tell the truth? Watching the fallout from this interview was unlike anything I'd ever experienced in years in the business. I mean, I knew we had something big when we finished that first taping, but I couldn't imagine just how big it would become. Ultimately, the interviews sparked a really serious conversation in the media and among voters about whether Sarah Palin was qualified to be vice president and whether the McCain campaign had truly done its diligence in vetting Sarah Palin. Here's Steve Schmidt again. If you're the governor of the state, my assumption was you had a aptitude or a like of reading history, government college policy, so you believed going and there was a certain threshold of knowledge that she had to possess as a governor of So you never said, do you know where a rock is? Do you know what happened in Afghanistan? Do you know what a credit to false swop? Hm? Do you understand the U? S? Tax system? And the answer is no to any of it. But you know, I believe that she likely was somewhere in the mean of basic knowledge as someone who's been around a lot of politicians and help prep them. Um I ran I ran two Supreme Court confirmations. Was John Roberts and Sam Alito ready for those hearings on day one? Hell? No, right, But go through the process and you get there. Again, the assumption is that there's a baseline there, and it was a terrible assumption. And you know, and I tend to ten years later not make assumptions about anything. Now, how could she be governor of Alaska and be so ignorant on so many issues. Why Jeffrey Dahmer people? I mean, I don't know. I asked Frank Lentz about whether Palin was qualified, and he said, being a candidate isn't all about understanding policy. I think that having a real understanding of people and their hopes and fears is as important as being smart and intellectual. And I'll give you a comparison Jimmy Carter. I don't. I think Jimmy Carter was not a good president, and arguably intellectually, he is one of the smartest we've had in our lifetime, but he had no real understanding, even though that's the essence that he gave off. I'm a peanut farmer, I'll know he wasn't. And I don't believe he really understood how people, how they related, and how they understood, which is why he gave so many speeches that nobody understood. But I think that that is an example of someone who did not understand the country that he wished to represent. And I do believe that Sarah Palin had a better understanding of who we were as people, even though she's from Alaska. Does she know policy? Know? Does she know the details behind this stuff? I don't think so, but I think she understood and understands who we are as a country. That really depends how you define who we are as a country. I think she understood some Americans, not all Americans, namely the Republican base, and Palin was picked in large part because of fear of alienating that base, which was of course a preview of their growing power in our politics. She was also painfully for the McCain campaign a stark contrast with their country first all about experience messaging. She was not a knowledgeable experience politician. Meanwhile, I think when she was tapped Brian there were a lot of undecided its swing voters who who really hadn't figured out if they could support Barack Obama, perhaps feeling he was not experienced enough, but weren't convinced they wanted John McCain either. When Sarah Palin performed poorly during that interview, I think it not only cast her in a bad light, but it made many voters question John McCain's judgment. Before we go, I want to play one more thing, Nicole Wallace told us Sarah Palin probably should have been tweeting and talking to Fox News. I mean it worked for Donald Trump eight years later. I don't really think Sarah Palin could have avoided network news anchors in two thousand and eight. In fact, it almost seems quaint to think that campaign managers ten years ago really thought it was imperative for candidates to be interviewed by a network news anchor, to be challenged. But today not so much, Brian, Yeah, today, why subject yourself to challenging questions and potentially a bad performance when you could just go to a friendly outlet, or not go to any outlet at all, just communicate directly to your supporters. So clearly we have entered a world where tough interviews might not matter, or might not even happen at all. Does this mean I'm not needed, Brian, Well, you're definitely needed next week, Katie, for part two of our special documentary That's Right, when Sarah goes rogue, McCain heads south, and Donald Trump picks up the pieces. A big thank you to our producers, Stephen Valentino and the right Reverend John Delore, and thank you, of course to our whole team at Stitcher. That's johnnah Palmer, Nora, Richie Gared, O'Connell, Chris Bannon, many many others. Thanks also to Invisible Studios and the Earwolf Studios in l A and Script Studios in d C. They all helped out with recordings for this episode. And finally thanks to Beth de Moz, my phenomenal assistant who also keeps me fed, Very Wharton and Julia Lewis, who handles all things social media for me. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. Katie Couric and I are the show's executive producers. You'll find Katie all over social media if you search Katie Current, especially Instagram, and I tweet from at Goldsmith b We'll be back next week for the second and final episode. Talk to you then, and thanks so much for listening.