Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well, just a couple of months ago, I sat down with John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John and his sister every year. As it happened, we did not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months before he.

Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well, just a couple of months ago, I sat down with John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John and his sister every year. As it happened, we did not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months before he.

Parented for both of them, and I think she was deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his concerns were part of our upbringing and some of her own which were not his, And I think there was a dynamic there that was healthy.

Parented for both of them, and I think she was deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his concerns were part of our upbringing and some of her own which were not his, And I think there was a dynamic there that was healthy.

Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary. Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior, his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts. He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three, and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today, on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by journalists Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy. Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time, no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it seems like many people who knew them are now willing to open up and tell some stories about their lives. What was it about John and Carolyn that made people so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent both the past and the future? Was it a combination of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them, and of course one of the millions of women besotted by John. Seeing that come to a sudden, senseless and was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books, in many ways, we get to know them all over again and have a much better sense of who they really were. First of all, Rose, Marie, and Liz, welcome to next question. How are you both doing great?

Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary. Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior, his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts. He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three, and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today, on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by journalists Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy. Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time, no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it seems like many people who knew them are now willing to open up and tell some stories about their lives. What was it about John and Carolyn that made people so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent both the past and the future? Was it a combination of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them, and of course one of the millions of women besotted by John. Seeing that come to a sudden, senseless and was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books, in many ways, we get to know them all over again and have a much better sense of who they really were. First of all, Rose, Marie, and Liz, welcome to next question. How are you both doing great?

Thank you for having us. We're excited, We're super excited.

Thank you for having us. We're excited, We're super excited.

We're super excited, and we love hearing what people are responding to And I'm always asking people what's your favorite chapter and which voice did you like? So I think because we've lived in our heads for so long and of course in the many papers on my desk, but it's amazing for us to have feedback from our readers.

We're super excited, and we love hearing what people are responding to And I'm always asking people what's your favorite chapter and which voice did you like? So I think because we've lived in our heads for so long and of course in the many papers on my desk, but it's amazing for us to have feedback from our readers.

Before we talk about sort of the book and how you all set it up, which I think is really unique and interesting and eminently readable. I want to talk to you about your relationship with John F. Kennedy Junior, and how you all decided to collaborate Rose Marie, Why don't we start with you?

Before we talk about sort of the book and how you all set it up, which I think is really unique and interesting and eminently readable. I want to talk to you about your relationship with John F. Kennedy Junior, and how you all decided to collaborate Rose Marie, Why don't we start with you?

Sure, I was John's assistant and then chief of staff for five years at George. I became very close friends with him and with Carolyn, and we had a wonderful friendship and brothers sister teasing relationship and a great professional relationship as well. And so that's how I came to this.

Sure, I was John's assistant and then chief of staff for five years at George. I became very close friends with him and with Carolyn, and we had a wonderful friendship and brothers sister teasing relationship and a great professional relationship as well. And so that's how I came to this.

Liz, what about you? How did you know John F. Kennedy Junior.

Liz, what about you? How did you know John F. Kennedy Junior.

So I got the jfk Junior beat back when my boss thought that John and Carolyn are about to get married, and she said, you got to find out everything about these people. And you know, I've been thinking about it lately. And of course this is back when nobody talked like zero. And I always would say nobody was nicer about turning me down than John's friends, because the response would always to be like, Liz, you know, you know I can't talk to you, and I'm like, I know you can't talk to me. But they did return, some of them to return my call. And for that I'll always be as you know, as a reporter, we appreciate that so yeah, basically nobody talked back then.

So I got the jfk Junior beat back when my boss thought that John and Carolyn are about to get married, and she said, you got to find out everything about these people. And you know, I've been thinking about it lately. And of course this is back when nobody talked like zero. And I always would say nobody was nicer about turning me down than John's friends, because the response would always to be like, Liz, you know, you know I can't talk to you, and I'm like, I know you can't talk to me. But they did return, some of them to return my call. And for that I'll always be as you know, as a reporter, we appreciate that so yeah, basically nobody talked back then.

Maybe there was one friend.

Maybe there was one friend.

This was when you were at People magazine.

This was when you were at People magazine.

Yeah, and I'm still at People and Rose and I weest that. I always say, you know, you never returned my call.

Yeah, and I'm still at People and Rose and I weest that. I always say, you know, you never returned my call.

They always said no, but I returned your calls.

They always said no, but I returned your calls.

But I only met Rose a year, probably about a year after John died. We met for the first time, So our relationship really started after John's death.

But I only met Rose a year, probably about a year after John died. We met for the first time, So our relationship really started after John's death.

Why did you all want to write this book? Obviously, on July sixteenth of this year, it will be twenty five years since John died, which is just so impossible to believe. But what was your goal when you were working on this book and publishing it around this time?

Why did you all want to write this book? Obviously, on July sixteenth of this year, it will be twenty five years since John died, which is just so impossible to believe. But what was your goal when you were working on this book and publishing it around this time?

Rose, Marie, I think it was that I wanted John to be remembered. I didn't want him to be forgotten, and particularly younger people to know about him, who he was, his place in our history, our culture, George magazine. And I think that enough time had passed where for me and also for his friends and some of his family members who participated, it felt more like a celebration of.

Rose, Marie, I think it was that I wanted John to be remembered. I didn't want him to be forgotten, and particularly younger people to know about him, who he was, his place in our history, our culture, George magazine. And I think that enough time had passed where for me and also for his friends and some of his family members who participated, it felt more like a celebration of.

Him than the morning.

Him than the morning.

It felt like enough time had passed that we could celebrate rather than mourn. And I really always felt that I never wanted John to be forgotten, and I felt that if he knew you were going to be gone at thirty eight, he wouldn't want to be forgotten.

It felt like enough time had passed that we could celebrate rather than mourn. And I really always felt that I never wanted John to be forgotten, and I felt that if he knew you were going to be gone at thirty eight, he wouldn't want to be forgotten.

Liz, I guess this time people did return your calls. What was it like for you to report on this now versus when you were first given this assignment back in the day.

Liz, I guess this time people did return your calls. What was it like for you to report on this now versus when you were first given this assignment back in the day.

Well, I'll just say it makes a big difference when you say I'm working with Rosemary Tarnsio. Let's just say, but I had met some of John's friends over the years, maybe through books they had written or other projects that we had done together. But of course it's a whole different level, you know, now that I'm working with Rose. You know, I think it was I was just really interested in having sort of open ended conversations with people, you know, I kind of wanted to see where they went, tried not to ask too many, you know, leading questions, and we sort of wanted to present sort of this kind of kaleidoscopic view of John, right, all different voices, all different perspectives, all different timeframes, and you know, there were a lot of like surprises along the way.

Well, I'll just say it makes a big difference when you say I'm working with Rosemary Tarnsio. Let's just say, but I had met some of John's friends over the years, maybe through books they had written or other projects that we had done together. But of course it's a whole different level, you know, now that I'm working with Rose. You know, I think it was I was just really interested in having sort of open ended conversations with people, you know, I kind of wanted to see where they went, tried not to ask too many, you know, leading questions, and we sort of wanted to present sort of this kind of kaleidoscopic view of John, right, all different voices, all different perspectives, all different timeframes, and you know, there were a lot of like surprises along the way.

So I think, you know, Rose and.

So I think, you know, Rose and.

I would get so excited when we got a great interview, and we would get heartbroken once somebody turned us down. But it was all like we were. I was like learning as I went. So I think it sort of gave the project a lot of energy, and it gave us energy because I mean it was daunting but exciting at the same time.

I would get so excited when we got a great interview, and we would get heartbroken once somebody turned us down. But it was all like we were. I was like learning as I went. So I think it sort of gave the project a lot of energy, and it gave us energy because I mean it was daunting but exciting at the same time.

The format of the book is very interesting, and that, as you said, it's a kaleidoscopic but word that I don't use that much. Liz view JFK Junior's life from a whole myriad of perspectives. In fact, you did over two hundred interviews. You talked to me, Rosemary talked to me, and it was fun to reminisce about the fact that I had done John's last on camera interview and how in retrospect, how moving and poignant it was. But how did you all decide to format the book the way you did, with basically people talking about their memories of John, even starting with the courtship of John F. Kennedy and Jacqueline Bouvier and before they got married. So tell me about sort of putting it together and how you decided to fill it with sometimes just snippets and other times several paragraphs.

The format of the book is very interesting, and that, as you said, it's a kaleidoscopic but word that I don't use that much. Liz view JFK Junior's life from a whole myriad of perspectives. In fact, you did over two hundred interviews. You talked to me, Rosemary talked to me, and it was fun to reminisce about the fact that I had done John's last on camera interview and how in retrospect, how moving and poignant it was. But how did you all decide to format the book the way you did, with basically people talking about their memories of John, even starting with the courtship of John F. Kennedy and Jacqueline Bouvier and before they got married. So tell me about sort of putting it together and how you decided to fill it with sometimes just snippets and other times several paragraphs.

From my perspective, it felt like I think Liz could be you know, from a journalistic perspective, would answer this better than I would. But I think what we wanted it to feel like was you were sitting in a room or in a living room and just sharing memories of John and of his life. And I think for the part of it that was you know, historical so to speak, going back to his mom and dad and their courtship. I think he gave it a perspective so that for people who might not have known him or didn't know the history, they wouldn't feel like they were reading about someone that they didn't know. You know, they kind of got the background, the history. This is why this person is who he is, and this is how he got there, and this is so I think it's important when you want people to invest in someone to do that, to really paint a full picture.

From my perspective, it felt like I think Liz could be you know, from a journalistic perspective, would answer this better than I would. But I think what we wanted it to feel like was you were sitting in a room or in a living room and just sharing memories of John and of his life. And I think for the part of it that was you know, historical so to speak, going back to his mom and dad and their courtship. I think he gave it a perspective so that for people who might not have known him or didn't know the history, they wouldn't feel like they were reading about someone that they didn't know. You know, they kind of got the background, the history. This is why this person is who he is, and this is how he got there, and this is so I think it's important when you want people to invest in someone to do that, to really paint a full picture.

And to really hear their life story from the very beginning, even before they were conceived, right, And I think that made his life come alive for me, especially the depictions of him as a little boy fascinated with all things military, fascinated with helicopters, crying when his father left, and that very po it remembrance of the President looking at the Secret Service agent and saying, you know, take care of John, never knowing that he wouldn't see his son again after that fateful trip to Dallas. What were your hopes for the layout of the book.

And to really hear their life story from the very beginning, even before they were conceived, right, And I think that made his life come alive for me, especially the depictions of him as a little boy fascinated with all things military, fascinated with helicopters, crying when his father left, and that very po it remembrance of the President looking at the Secret Service agent and saying, you know, take care of John, never knowing that he wouldn't see his son again after that fateful trip to Dallas. What were your hopes for the layout of the book.

I guess we really wanted the book to move, you know, and like I think what Rose was saying, like, so there is sort of a conversation happening, and so you know, and then as we were writing it, you'd see, oh, this person talked about let's just say the wedding, Carolyn's wedding dress. Oh, but then remember that thing that other person said. And then so you'd almost like it's almost like like when we're talking, we're interrupting each other, and what about that? And so you kind of were like maybe sometimes looking for themes, and then sometimes right something would flow.

I guess we really wanted the book to move, you know, and like I think what Rose was saying, like, so there is sort of a conversation happening, and so you know, and then as we were writing it, you'd see, oh, this person talked about let's just say the wedding, Carolyn's wedding dress. Oh, but then remember that thing that other person said. And then so you'd almost like it's almost like like when we're talking, we're interrupting each other, and what about that? And so you kind of were like maybe sometimes looking for themes, and then sometimes right something would flow.

Into the next thing, or somebody would say something.

Into the next thing, or somebody would say something.

And when I started it, I actually made print outs of my transcripts and was cutting That's how old I am. I was cutting them at the beginning and the kitchen table with my husband, and somehow I needed to break it to see it in a new way and then oh, this voice actually goes with that person, so right. The idea was to sort of give it energy, people having a conversation, and then chapters sort of have a beginning and an end. Maybe they're sort of leading you into the next chapter. So I guess we just wanted to make it as lively and as possible and really sort of winnowing it down to anecdotes so people are really sharing stories.

And when I started it, I actually made print outs of my transcripts and was cutting That's how old I am. I was cutting them at the beginning and the kitchen table with my husband, and somehow I needed to break it to see it in a new way and then oh, this voice actually goes with that person, so right. The idea was to sort of give it energy, people having a conversation, and then chapters sort of have a beginning and an end. Maybe they're sort of leading you into the next chapter. So I guess we just wanted to make it as lively and as possible and really sort of winnowing it down to anecdotes so people are really sharing stories.

At the beginning of the book, you have an interview with someone Martha Bartlett, whose husband had set up Jackie and Jack Kennedy back when they were much younger. I think Jackie was just twenty one at the time and he was thirty three, and I think a lot of people might be surprised that then John Kennedy had no game like In fact, you quoted her saying, poor Jack was always making advances, half the time they were not accepted. He thought he was a great don juant, and most women didn't think of him as a great don juant. That made me laugh because I thought, oh my gosh, this big Latharia, who you know, kind of was an awkward guy.

At the beginning of the book, you have an interview with someone Martha Bartlett, whose husband had set up Jackie and Jack Kennedy back when they were much younger. I think Jackie was just twenty one at the time and he was thirty three, and I think a lot of people might be surprised that then John Kennedy had no game like In fact, you quoted her saying, poor Jack was always making advances, half the time they were not accepted. He thought he was a great don juant, and most women didn't think of him as a great don juant. That made me laugh because I thought, oh my gosh, this big Latharia, who you know, kind of was an awkward guy.

Well, let's just say Martha is one tough lady. Okay, and she has survived a lot, so I will just leave it at that, Martha. That was Martha's take.

Well, let's just say Martha is one tough lady. Okay, and she has survived a lot, so I will just leave it at that, Martha. That was Martha's take.

She definitely knew them, and she's definitely out of that era.

She definitely knew them, and she's definitely out of that era.

How old is Martha at this point.

How old is Martha at this point.

I'd say ninety five ninety six, and wow, Marth was going strong.

I'd say ninety five ninety six, and wow, Marth was going strong.

Good for Martha and she you know, I know she also told you that Jackie knew from the get go that he was a big philanderer, but because of her father and his philandering ways, she wasn't that rattled by it. Is that accurate, Rose, Marie?

Good for Martha and she you know, I know she also told you that Jackie knew from the get go that he was a big philanderer, but because of her father and his philandering ways, she wasn't that rattled by it. Is that accurate, Rose, Marie?

I don't know about that. I think that might be Martha's opinion from what she saw. But you know, I think we all go into a new relationship, and I would imagine Jackie Kennedy did the same thing, hoping for the best and hoping that we have a great romance. And I think in a lot of ways they did. But I think that there's always you know, there are always the problems in pitfalls and relationships. So that's how I look at it. I think everybody goes it in hopeful and you know, really wide eyed about it. I hope, you know.

I don't know about that. I think that might be Martha's opinion from what she saw. But you know, I think we all go into a new relationship, and I would imagine Jackie Kennedy did the same thing, hoping for the best and hoping that we have a great romance. And I think in a lot of ways they did. But I think that there's always you know, there are always the problems in pitfalls and relationships. So that's how I look at it. I think everybody goes it in hopeful and you know, really wide eyed about it. I hope, you know.

I think you're being very nice and diplomatic. It sounds like he was kind of a dog, but because her dad was kind of a dog that, at least according to Martha, she just dealt with it. In fact, Martha's quote is Jackie was used to philandering. It's all about what you're used to, you connect it with love. So I thought that was really interesting insight into their relationship. And how did you take away from all the people with whom you spoke about their marriage in general? I thought it was sort of heartbreaking that Jackie lost her fourth child, because she had also lost a child earlier, Arabella was stillborn, and then her fourth child, Patrick died shortly after birth from respiratory distress. She was despondent, and she and according to whoever it was who was talking at this time in the book, decided to go to Dallas and to help her husband. And that person said that they seemed to be on much stronger ground and that the death of Patrick not only changed him, changed her obviously, but it changed them as a couple in a way. Right No.

I think you're being very nice and diplomatic. It sounds like he was kind of a dog, but because her dad was kind of a dog that, at least according to Martha, she just dealt with it. In fact, Martha's quote is Jackie was used to philandering. It's all about what you're used to, you connect it with love. So I thought that was really interesting insight into their relationship. And how did you take away from all the people with whom you spoke about their marriage in general? I thought it was sort of heartbreaking that Jackie lost her fourth child, because she had also lost a child earlier, Arabella was stillborn, and then her fourth child, Patrick died shortly after birth from respiratory distress. She was despondent, and she and according to whoever it was who was talking at this time in the book, decided to go to Dallas and to help her husband. And that person said that they seemed to be on much stronger ground and that the death of Patrick not only changed him, changed her obviously, but it changed them as a couple in a way. Right No.

Clint Hill has said that the Secret Service agent who was with Jackie all the time, and he noticed more a little more tenderness between them, a little more closeness, and Martha had also noticed a change. So I mean, right, that's something unimaginable to go through something like that and what that does to a couple. So that was really touching anecdote there, and very heartbreaking, I thought, And it.

Clint Hill has said that the Secret Service agent who was with Jackie all the time, and he noticed more a little more tenderness between them, a little more closeness, and Martha had also noticed a change. So I mean, right, that's something unimaginable to go through something like that and what that does to a couple. So that was really touching anecdote there, and very heartbreaking, I thought, And it.

Is heartbreaking because those things can go either way in a relationship, but either it can either bring you closer together or further apart. And I think it's, you know, just sad that happened that way. And then they went to Dallas.

Is heartbreaking because those things can go either way in a relationship, but either it can either bring you closer together or further apart. And I think it's, you know, just sad that happened that way. And then they went to Dallas.

And then of course everything changed when President Kennedy was assassinated, and boy, the details in the book about that are so hero range. You know, it made me think and wonder about John and never knowing his dad really and it made me so sad that he couldn't read this book and the remembrances of people who saw him with his dad, and the part where his father knew that Jackie didn't really like the kids to be photographed, so when she went away, he would have the White House photographer come in because he knew people would love to see photos of the kids, and I guess he didn't feel as strongly about their privacy. And that's when that very famous photo of John John under the desk was taken when Jackie was out of the White House and the coast was clear, right yeah.

And then of course everything changed when President Kennedy was assassinated, and boy, the details in the book about that are so hero range. You know, it made me think and wonder about John and never knowing his dad really and it made me so sad that he couldn't read this book and the remembrances of people who saw him with his dad, and the part where his father knew that Jackie didn't really like the kids to be photographed, so when she went away, he would have the White House photographer come in because he knew people would love to see photos of the kids, and I guess he didn't feel as strongly about their privacy. And that's when that very famous photo of John John under the desk was taken when Jackie was out of the White House and the coast was clear, right yeah.

And also, as Michael Shean says, John told him that his mother would not allow them to chew gum, so his father would always have gum for him, and he had it under his desk, and that's how John got under there to get the gone.

And also, as Michael Shean says, John told him that his mother would not allow them to chew gum, so his father would always have gum for him, and he had it under his desk, and that's how John got under there to get the gone.

That's so funny. He was a little young to be chewing gum, wasn't he. I mean he was how old?

That's so funny. He was a little young to be chewing gum, wasn't he. I mean he was how old?

Was he?

Was he?

Two or three years old at the time?

Two or three years old at the time?

And even three? It was guy.

And even three? It was guy.

When we come back. How the nineteen sixty three assassination of President Kennedy when John was only three, strengthened his bonds with his mother, Jackie and his sister Caroline. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back with Rosemarie Trensio and Liz McNeil. After President Kennedy was assassinated. Clearly, John, Caroline and Jackie, I feel funny calling her by your first name. But anyway, they formed an extraordinary bond. They tell us about that.

When we come back. How the nineteen sixty three assassination of President Kennedy when John was only three, strengthened his bonds with his mother, Jackie and his sister Caroline. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back with Rosemarie Trensio and Liz McNeil. After President Kennedy was assassinated. Clearly, John, Caroline and Jackie, I feel funny calling her by your first name. But anyway, they formed an extraordinary bond. They tell us about that.

Liz, I was just thinking of something that Sasha Chair may have said. John's one of John's closest friends, and she called that sort of like a sacred space, sort of something that is, you know, almost impenetrable because they were so close. And I think there was another friend, Chris Oberbeck, John's roommate at Brown, who said, you know, those two women are those are the primary sort of influences in his life, right. It's his mother and his sister, So it's I don't think I have thought about it that way before, but when you think about it that way, right, those two relationships really form who he is. So I thought that was enlightening. I hadn't thought of John that way, like basically an unbreakable.

Liz, I was just thinking of something that Sasha Chair may have said. John's one of John's closest friends, and she called that sort of like a sacred space, sort of something that is, you know, almost impenetrable because they were so close. And I think there was another friend, Chris Oberbeck, John's roommate at Brown, who said, you know, those two women are those are the primary sort of influences in his life, right. It's his mother and his sister, So it's I don't think I have thought about it that way before, but when you think about it that way, right, those two relationships really form who he is. So I thought that was enlightening. I hadn't thought of John that way, like basically an unbreakable.

Bond there also, I think probably having a certain respect for women. I know that one of his friends said he could have been out carousing, having one night stance. But he was really a serial monogamous when he got older, wasn't he?

Bond there also, I think probably having a certain respect for women. I know that one of his friends said he could have been out carousing, having one night stance. But he was really a serial monogamous when he got older, wasn't he?

Yes, he was, And I think that his relationship with his mother and his sister or had a lot to do with that. I think he had a respect for women, and he didn't want to see women be hurt. He didn't want to be responsible for that. And I think his mother and his sister were the absolute biggest influences on his life, and their relationship was closer than anything any relationship I've ever seen. I think he had a tremendous amount of respect for women. I think he was cautious about not hurting people's feelings, especially women, because he wouldn't want to see his mom or his sister be hurt. You know, he adored those women. They and they really formed who he was. And Caroline was extremely protective of John, and he was of her.

Yes, he was, And I think that his relationship with his mother and his sister or had a lot to do with that. I think he had a respect for women, and he didn't want to see women be hurt. He didn't want to be responsible for that. And I think his mother and his sister were the absolute biggest influences on his life, and their relationship was closer than anything any relationship I've ever seen. I think he had a tremendous amount of respect for women. I think he was cautious about not hurting people's feelings, especially women, because he wouldn't want to see his mom or his sister be hurt. You know, he adored those women. They and they really formed who he was. And Caroline was extremely protective of John, and he was of her.

I wanted to ask you how Caroline feels or felt about the fact that you were putting this book together. Obviously she didn't participate, but there are photos of the two of them in the book that are really quite beautiful.

I wanted to ask you how Caroline feels or felt about the fact that you were putting this book together. Obviously she didn't participate, but there are photos of the two of them in the book that are really quite beautiful.

I corresponded with her and she said, you know, look, I'm not going to participate, but thank you for letting me know, and good luck with it. There weren't didn't seem to be on my end from her any hard feelings about it. It's just not something that she would participate in. And I totally understand that, and I respect that.

I corresponded with her and she said, you know, look, I'm not going to participate, but thank you for letting me know, and good luck with it. There weren't didn't seem to be on my end from her any hard feelings about it. It's just not something that she would participate in. And I totally understand that, and I respect that.

What about other family members, did you reach out to them? I mean, this is a big, big family.

What about other family members, did you reach out to them? I mean, this is a big, big family.

Yeah, we reached out to a few. I didn't go far and wide with the family because I thought I wanted to really have the people who were, you know, close to him and who he communicated with most often. But Carrie gave us a really beautiful, funny, you know, entry for the book, and I love it where she talks about the little kid who says, says, what's your name? And he says John? And he says John, what's your whole name? And he says John F. Kennedy. He says, do you know that you're named after an airport?

Yeah, we reached out to a few. I didn't go far and wide with the family because I thought I wanted to really have the people who were, you know, close to him and who he communicated with most often. But Carrie gave us a really beautiful, funny, you know, entry for the book, and I love it where she talks about the little kid who says, says, what's your name? And he says John? And he says John, what's your whole name? And he says John F. Kennedy. He says, do you know that you're named after an airport?

That's so funny. Well, that's great that Carrie was able to give you something. But I think Caroline continues to be very protective of John, and you know you kind of alluded to this early on. But how do you think he'd feel about some of these personal stories and people talking about pretty intimate things in this book. Do you think he would be upset with.

That's so funny. Well, that's great that Carrie was able to give you something. But I think Caroline continues to be very protective of John, and you know you kind of alluded to this early on. But how do you think he'd feel about some of these personal stories and people talking about pretty intimate things in this book. Do you think he would be upset with.

You at all?

You at all?

Or what do you think he would say if he were to walk into your room right now?

Or what do you think he would say if he were to walk into your room right now?

Well, I'd like to think that, you know, anybody after they passed away would love to have their friends and their family members and their colleagues come together and remember them and tell beautiful stories about them and share their memories so that they're not forgotten.

Well, I'd like to think that, you know, anybody after they passed away would love to have their friends and their family members and their colleagues come together and remember them and tell beautiful stories about them and share their memories so that they're not forgotten.

It's interesting, right because John was a member of our profession, right, so he becomes an editor in chief, and I think as a journalist, right, it was I think we wanted to have this element of truth, but also to have a lot of heart, and I feel like the book does that. But I think you there has to be an element of truth, like we had to if these stories were shared with us and everything was done in balance, like I felt, for me, it made me just have a much better understanding of him, more empathy, more fondness for him.

It's interesting, right because John was a member of our profession, right, so he becomes an editor in chief, and I think as a journalist, right, it was I think we wanted to have this element of truth, but also to have a lot of heart, and I feel like the book does that. But I think you there has to be an element of truth, like we had to if these stories were shared with us and everything was done in balance, like I felt, for me, it made me just have a much better understanding of him, more empathy, more fondness for him.

So that was our intent.

So that was our intent.

Let's talk about his relationship with the father. He never really knew how difficult was that for him to navigate this the mythology of his father, the larger than life figure that his dad was, with his own development as a person. You watched him, I think probably struggle with that at times. What was that like?

Let's talk about his relationship with the father. He never really knew how difficult was that for him to navigate this the mythology of his father, the larger than life figure that his dad was, with his own development as a person. You watched him, I think probably struggle with that at times. What was that like?

I don't know that he struggled with being part of a legacy or a mythology. He didn't see it that way. He saw it as this is my family. They're not a legacy to me. They're not a mythology to me. They're my family. I think what was interesting about what I learned from the book was all of the little sort of pieces that came together on him really kind of searching to have a better understanding and a deeper understanding of his father and really sort of getting to know him through all the various people and things that he did. And on one of those is you know, George Magazine. I mean, he really he interviews people who are I mean, he goes in visits with the Fidel Castro and asks him for an interview. He you know, he sort of wants to understand his father and his father's presidency, and I think you can see that throughout the book, and it's I think it was probably really tough for him to know that the whole world, you know, knew his father, and many people had memories of his father that he didn't have. And I think that he appreciated the affinity that people had for his father and the affection, but I think it was probably difficult for him not to have his own memories and not to have his own connection as an adult.

I don't know that he struggled with being part of a legacy or a mythology. He didn't see it that way. He saw it as this is my family. They're not a legacy to me. They're not a mythology to me. They're my family. I think what was interesting about what I learned from the book was all of the little sort of pieces that came together on him really kind of searching to have a better understanding and a deeper understanding of his father and really sort of getting to know him through all the various people and things that he did. And on one of those is you know, George Magazine. I mean, he really he interviews people who are I mean, he goes in visits with the Fidel Castro and asks him for an interview. He you know, he sort of wants to understand his father and his father's presidency, and I think you can see that throughout the book, and it's I think it was probably really tough for him to know that the whole world, you know, knew his father, and many people had memories of his father that he didn't have. And I think that he appreciated the affinity that people had for his father and the affection, but I think it was probably difficult for him not to have his own memories and not to have his own connection as an adult.

Liz, what about the pressures on him to be a really important figure in American society. How tough was that. It seemed like he was trying to find his way working. You know, he decided he didn't want to be a lawyer. He then decided he wanted to be a magazine editor. He was in the throes of getting support, even more support, making sure that George could continue when he died. How much do you think that weighed on him. I remember reading the New York Post articles every time he failed the bar and I thought, God, that's so tough to have everyone in the world know that you failed the bar exam because he took it? What how many times?

Liz, what about the pressures on him to be a really important figure in American society. How tough was that. It seemed like he was trying to find his way working. You know, he decided he didn't want to be a lawyer. He then decided he wanted to be a magazine editor. He was in the throes of getting support, even more support, making sure that George could continue when he died. How much do you think that weighed on him. I remember reading the New York Post articles every time he failed the bar and I thought, God, that's so tough to have everyone in the world know that you failed the bar exam because he took it? What how many times?

List three?

List three?

Three was the third time? A charm? Yes, okay, good, thank god? But I mean, talk about what you learned from people you interviewed, but also just from covering him, this enormous pressure he felt.

Three was the third time? A charm? Yes, okay, good, thank god? But I mean, talk about what you learned from people you interviewed, but also just from covering him, this enormous pressure he felt.

I mean, it's always interesting with him, and I think there's sort of I felt like he's always sort of breaking free, you know, doing his own thing. And one thing that I always marvel at is like when I think about his level of fame and who he was, and there's almost like no protection, you know, because you're a journalist. There's no doorman, there's no manager. He has Rose, who's incredibly loyal and protective. But he was very much part of the world, part of New York City. So that was always interesting, and it did seem like there was this element of breaking free, whether it was going to Brown, traveling, just being amongst everyone right, definitely not seeking protection, or definitely like out and about.

I mean, it's always interesting with him, and I think there's sort of I felt like he's always sort of breaking free, you know, doing his own thing. And one thing that I always marvel at is like when I think about his level of fame and who he was, and there's almost like no protection, you know, because you're a journalist. There's no doorman, there's no manager. He has Rose, who's incredibly loyal and protective. But he was very much part of the world, part of New York City. So that was always interesting, and it did seem like there was this element of breaking free, whether it was going to Brown, traveling, just being amongst everyone right, definitely not seeking protection, or definitely like out and about.

So that's sort of fascinating.

So that's sort of fascinating.

And yet it seems like at the end, I think Steve Gillen said that he was John's biographer and a friend of John's, and he wrote a great book about John, called America's Electant Prince, and he said that John throughout his life said I don't want to do what people expect me to do. His life is a lot like that out in Central Park, you know, found founding George. But then he was saying that at the end of his life, or it would be in the middle of his life, John sort of is coming to this moment where maybe he is going to do what people expect him to do, but maybe he had to come to that moment himself, right, which is maybe sort of what this book is sort of about, sort of how he figures.

And yet it seems like at the end, I think Steve Gillen said that he was John's biographer and a friend of John's, and he wrote a great book about John, called America's Electant Prince, and he said that John throughout his life said I don't want to do what people expect me to do. His life is a lot like that out in Central Park, you know, found founding George. But then he was saying that at the end of his life, or it would be in the middle of his life, John sort of is coming to this moment where maybe he is going to do what people expect him to do, but maybe he had to come to that moment himself, right, which is maybe sort of what this book is sort of about, sort of how he figures.

It out himself. He was accosted by headlines in the New York Posts like hunk flunks and all kinds of things when he did not pass the bar exam, and the book makes clear that he most certainly got into Brown because of his name. So I was curious how you all felt about his intellect and was he sensitive about this notion that he wasn't maybe the sharpest tool in the shed. I think that's you know, I think those girl had an object to that. Rosemary God.

It out himself. He was accosted by headlines in the New York Posts like hunk flunks and all kinds of things when he did not pass the bar exam, and the book makes clear that he most certainly got into Brown because of his name. So I was curious how you all felt about his intellect and was he sensitive about this notion that he wasn't maybe the sharpest tool in the shed. I think that's you know, I think those girl had an object to that. Rosemary God.

I do because I knew him, and I knew he was extremely intelligent, very wise, very tempered, and you know, you have to also understand like at that time in his life after college, he's studying or not studying for the bar exam. You know, people fail things all the time, but it's not on the front page of the New York Post as you're you know, going down the street. And I think those things were upsetting to him and it hurt him. But I also think that John throughout his life had seen that those things, as he always said, as my and he said it in the letter to Mike Tyson you know, today's headlines are lining tomorrow's trash cans, and no amount of bad press is going to change you know, your life if the people around you love and respect you. And I think he lived life that way. And I think he really did have an incredible eq. You know, he had a way of walking into a room and knowing exactly what was happening and who was who and how to treat, you know, how people. You know, he had this thing where he would go to the shyest person in the room or the person who was in the corner, and that's the person he would introduce himself to. A person who seemed the most uncomfortable he would introduce himself to. So it was like those kind of things you're not you know, you're not dumb. And I would also add.

I do because I knew him, and I knew he was extremely intelligent, very wise, very tempered, and you know, you have to also understand like at that time in his life after college, he's studying or not studying for the bar exam. You know, people fail things all the time, but it's not on the front page of the New York Post as you're you know, going down the street. And I think those things were upsetting to him and it hurt him. But I also think that John throughout his life had seen that those things, as he always said, as my and he said it in the letter to Mike Tyson you know, today's headlines are lining tomorrow's trash cans, and no amount of bad press is going to change you know, your life if the people around you love and respect you. And I think he lived life that way. And I think he really did have an incredible eq. You know, he had a way of walking into a room and knowing exactly what was happening and who was who and how to treat, you know, how people. You know, he had this thing where he would go to the shyest person in the room or the person who was in the corner, and that's the person he would introduce himself to. A person who seemed the most uncomfortable he would introduce himself to. So it was like those kind of things you're not you know, you're not dumb. And I would also add.

That probably another thing, Katie, and another thing, Katie, probably half of the celebrities in the country's children got into their colleges because of their parents' names.

That probably another thing, Katie, and another thing, Katie, probably half of the celebrities in the country's children got into their colleges because of their parents' names.

But that said, you know, no, he wasn't Caroline, he wasn't an academic, but he he certainly wasn't, you know, dumb.

But that said, you know, no, he wasn't Caroline, he wasn't an academic, but he he certainly wasn't, you know, dumb.

I think people, they're all kinds of intelligence, right, and I think people can be deeply intelligent and perceptive, but not necessarily academic. So it sounds like he fell into that category. Yeah.

I think people, they're all kinds of intelligence, right, and I think people can be deeply intelligent and perceptive, but not necessarily academic. So it sounds like he fell into that category. Yeah.

And John was one of those annoying people where if it didn't interest him, he didn't put on a you know, he is kind of like a kid that way. If it wasn't super interesting to him, he didn't you know, he didn't give it at all.

And John was one of those annoying people where if it didn't interest him, he didn't put on a you know, he is kind of like a kid that way. If it wasn't super interesting to him, he didn't you know, he didn't give it at all.

This free spirit that he seemed to possess, you know, rollerblading and someone described him rollerblading down Columbus with a big pizza box over his head and really kind of just being very open and vulnerable and out there. Do you think that was the result of his mom's desire to have him live a normal life, because I know that was really important to her.

This free spirit that he seemed to possess, you know, rollerblading and someone described him rollerblading down Columbus with a big pizza box over his head and really kind of just being very open and vulnerable and out there. Do you think that was the result of his mom's desire to have him live a normal life, because I know that was really important to her.

Yeah. I think part of it was that. I think that's where the seed of it was planted. But I think for John, he was in constant, perpetual. That was John. He was not a guy to sit still. He was not a guy to you know. He wanted to be in the thick of it. As a friend of his said when we opened the book, John wanted to be on the dance floor with everybody. He didn't want to be behind the ropes in the VIP section. He found that boring. He felt like he was part of New York and he belonged in New York, like I belong here. I'm not some Ivory Tower person that doesn't belong in the mix. He wanted to be in the mix. He loved being around the city, he loved doing things that were interesting. But also he was very you know, athletic. He looked run around and exercise. I mean, he had that, but he also had the idea that experiences happened, you know, when you're in the thick of it, and John wanted to have a life full of really rich experiences.

Yeah. I think part of it was that. I think that's where the seed of it was planted. But I think for John, he was in constant, perpetual. That was John. He was not a guy to sit still. He was not a guy to you know. He wanted to be in the thick of it. As a friend of his said when we opened the book, John wanted to be on the dance floor with everybody. He didn't want to be behind the ropes in the VIP section. He found that boring. He felt like he was part of New York and he belonged in New York, like I belong here. I'm not some Ivory Tower person that doesn't belong in the mix. He wanted to be in the mix. He loved being around the city, he loved doing things that were interesting. But also he was very you know, athletic. He looked run around and exercise. I mean, he had that, but he also had the idea that experiences happened, you know, when you're in the thick of it, and John wanted to have a life full of really rich experiences.

I know that one entry talked about the impact Jackie Kennedy's death from lymphoma had on her son and it really changed him in many ways. Can you talk about that, Liz.

I know that one entry talked about the impact Jackie Kennedy's death from lymphoma had on her son and it really changed him in many ways. Can you talk about that, Liz.

Yeah, remember that interview, and it was from a very close friend of John, somebody who had known him really his entire life, and it really said I think his phrase was that his wings came out or something like that, that it was sort of, you know, there was like tremendous sadness at the loss of his mom, but there maybe there was also some kind of freedom that also came with it, and that basically there was he sort of became more of an adult, I guess, and that's what and was sort of ready to take on new things. So I think it was heartbreaking. And Rose was just getting to know John at that time, so she would probably know more than I. But I do remember the friend saying, right, that was sort of a time for his wings to come out.

Yeah, remember that interview, and it was from a very close friend of John, somebody who had known him really his entire life, and it really said I think his phrase was that his wings came out or something like that, that it was sort of, you know, there was like tremendous sadness at the loss of his mom, but there maybe there was also some kind of freedom that also came with it, and that basically there was he sort of became more of an adult, I guess, and that's what and was sort of ready to take on new things. So I think it was heartbreaking. And Rose was just getting to know John at that time, so she would probably know more than I. But I do remember the friend saying, right, that was sort of a time for his wings to come out.

Meanwhile, he dated a lot of women. Unfortunately never asked me out, much to my chagrin. But I think I was married when I met him. I mean, my god, I did I did I mention I had a crush on him? I think I did a few times in the book. But you know, tell me a little bit about his relationships. Did anything surprise you that you learned? I mean, I know he had a girlfriend in the eighties. I guess maybe who went to Brown with him. He dated Sarah Jessica Parker. Give us a little tea, ladies.

Meanwhile, he dated a lot of women. Unfortunately never asked me out, much to my chagrin. But I think I was married when I met him. I mean, my god, I did I did I mention I had a crush on him? I think I did a few times in the book. But you know, tell me a little bit about his relationships. Did anything surprise you that you learned? I mean, I know he had a girlfriend in the eighties. I guess maybe who went to Brown with him. He dated Sarah Jessica Parker. Give us a little tea, ladies.

Well.

Well.

One of the things that I think was interesting that we discovered and that we you know, we kind of knew but not really was there was a lot of overlap. So he wouldn't just break off, be single and then meet somebody else. He always kind of had overlap between girlfriends, so it wasn't completely over, but he was sort of starting with somebody else.

One of the things that I think was interesting that we discovered and that we you know, we kind of knew but not really was there was a lot of overlap. So he wouldn't just break off, be single and then meet somebody else. He always kind of had overlap between girlfriends, so it wasn't completely over, but he was sort of starting with somebody else.

I don't know if I like that term overlap. Yeah, it was sure because I would not want to be one of the overlap girls in either direction. Probably, But do you think that's because he didn't want to hurt their feelings or what was going on there with this overlap situation?

I don't know if I like that term overlap. Yeah, it was sure because I would not want to be one of the overlap girls in either direction. Probably, But do you think that's because he didn't want to hurt their feelings or what was going on there with this overlap situation?

I mean, Rose I recall that.

I mean, Rose I recall that.

I think in those instances it was sort of when a relationship was ending.

I think in those instances it was sort of when a relationship was ending.

And there was one friend who was unnamed in the book who.

And there was one friend who was unnamed in the book who.

Talked about that John couldn't really be single because this person said that he would actually get calls from like members of royal families wanting to fix them up, and.

Talked about that John couldn't really be single because this person said that he would actually get calls from like members of royal families wanting to fix them up, and.

That was surprising why there was this sort of overlap, why he was never really single. It was like, well, he would be inundated with calls from you know.

That was surprising why there was this sort of overlap, why he was never really single. It was like, well, he would be inundated with calls from you know.

Heads of state or people fathers or women themselves. John much better than Hinge exactly.

Heads of state or people fathers or women themselves. John much better than Hinge exactly.

Like he didn't even have to do and read it.

Like he didn't even have to do and read it.

He didn't need it.

He didn't need it.

After this break, JFK. Junior meets Princess Diana and they form an instant connection as reluctant public figures now more with Liz McNeil and Rose Marie Crencio. Team met with Princess Diana at the Carlisle. Tell us about that that.

After this break, JFK. Junior meets Princess Diana and they form an instant connection as reluctant public figures now more with Liz McNeil and Rose Marie Crencio. Team met with Princess Diana at the Carlisle. Tell us about that that.

Was our most famous caper, trying to get in and out of there without getting noticed, which we did.

Was our most famous caper, trying to get in and out of there without getting noticed, which we did.

How did that happen and what was going on with those two?

How did that happen and what was going on with those two?

He wanted her to be on the cover of George and she was going to be in New York and he was going over there to meet her and present her with these sketches that Matt Burman or creative director had done, you know, depicting what we would want to do on the cover and how she would appear. And you know, he went and met with her at the Carlisle and she was there for a charity dinner and her private secretary Patrick Jah at the time, and I, you know, hatched the plan and we went over like in the middle of the day, and I went with him, and I walked in with him and waited downstairs, and you know, he was up there for about I don't know, maybe an hour, and they chatted and they said hello, and they talked about various things, and he made his little pitch for George and.

He wanted her to be on the cover of George and she was going to be in New York and he was going over there to meet her and present her with these sketches that Matt Burman or creative director had done, you know, depicting what we would want to do on the cover and how she would appear. And you know, he went and met with her at the Carlisle and she was there for a charity dinner and her private secretary Patrick Jah at the time, and I, you know, hatched the plan and we went over like in the middle of the day, and I went with him, and I walked in with him and waited downstairs, and you know, he was up there for about I don't know, maybe an hour, and they chatted and they said hello, and they talked about various things, and he made his little pitch for George and.

Did Sparks fly.

Did Sparks fly.

No, they did not.

No, they did not.

And she was married at the time, yes, Or was she divorced. No, I think she was coming out of her marriage.

And she was married at the time, yes, Or was she divorced. No, I think she was coming out of her marriage.

But he was solidly with Carolyn at the time, and it was it was kind of all business, you know. And as Patrick describes it, like she in the book, you know, she she had this sort of empathy for him. She saw him as vulnerable and as someone you know that she had empathy for because I think she probably related to his situation.

But he was solidly with Carolyn at the time, and it was it was kind of all business, you know. And as Patrick describes it, like she in the book, you know, she she had this sort of empathy for him. She saw him as vulnerable and as someone you know that she had empathy for because I think she probably related to his situation.

In fact, she later wrote him a note about the paparazzi, right.

In fact, she later wrote him a note about the paparazzi, right.

Yeah, she said, I hope the paparazzi are leaving you alone. If you can believe it. They're much worse here. I'm paraphrasing, but it was just it was very you know, poignant. But it was a situation where like, if it had gotten out exactly what you said, did Sparks, why, it would have been this whole tabloid frenzy of John and Princess Diana dating. And that was not the case. So we got there and decided let's just walk in the front door instead of trying to go in a side entrance because they're probably waiting for her at the side entrance, so we walked right in the front of the Carlisle completely unnoticed.

Yeah, she said, I hope the paparazzi are leaving you alone. If you can believe it. They're much worse here. I'm paraphrasing, but it was just it was very you know, poignant. But it was a situation where like, if it had gotten out exactly what you said, did Sparks, why, it would have been this whole tabloid frenzy of John and Princess Diana dating. And that was not the case. So we got there and decided let's just walk in the front door instead of trying to go in a side entrance because they're probably waiting for her at the side entrance, so we walked right in the front of the Carlisle completely unnoticed.

Did he like her? Did he think she was nice?

Did he like her? Did he think she was nice?

Yeah, he thought she was lovely. He thought she was very shy. He said she had great legs, and he, you know, I think he was disappointed that she said no, but he understood.

Yeah, he thought she was lovely. He thought she was very shy. He said she had great legs, and he, you know, I think he was disappointed that she said no, but he understood.

Speaking of overlap, I know he was seeing Daryl Hannah when he met Carolyn, and so he was balancing those two relationships for a pretty long time, right. I don't think he was in both relationships at the same time.

Speaking of overlap, I know he was seeing Daryl Hannah when he met Carolyn, and so he was balancing those two relationships for a pretty long time, right. I don't think he was in both relationships at the same time.

I think that he and Daryl were on and off, and I think when they were back on, he you know, he and Daryl decided to give it. From what I understand from his friends, they decided to give it one more shot, and she was going to move to New York and it didn't work out. It was sort of at the end of that relationship. The second time around that he meets Carolyn and they form a relationship, and then he and Daryl break up and he ends up with Carolyn.

I think that he and Daryl were on and off, and I think when they were back on, he you know, he and Daryl decided to give it. From what I understand from his friends, they decided to give it one more shot, and she was going to move to New York and it didn't work out. It was sort of at the end of that relationship. The second time around that he meets Carolyn and they form a relationship, and then he and Daryl break up and he ends up with Carolyn.

Tell us a little bit about Carolyn Beset because you got to know her very well. Rose Marie as most executive assistants or chiefs of staff do because they have intimate knowledge and it's really they talk to you all the time and are with you constantly. And I think most people you know, have demanding jobs become very very close to their assistance. What was she like.

Tell us a little bit about Carolyn Beset because you got to know her very well. Rose Marie as most executive assistants or chiefs of staff do because they have intimate knowledge and it's really they talk to you all the time and are with you constantly. And I think most people you know, have demanding jobs become very very close to their assistance. What was she like.

She was great. I mean, Carolyn was She was so smart, she was funny. She was also very protective of John. I think she instinctually knew from the beginning when she saw sort of what his life was like, that he could be vulnerable, and he could be vulnerable to people and people who weren't always trustworthy, and she felt this sort of mama bear instinct of protecting him. And I think he loved that. I think he loved that she did that. And I also think that they were, you know, they were buddies. They were like, you know, they would go home and giggle and gossip about the day, and they'd poke fun at each other and tease each other all the time. And I think he loved that. I think he had a relationship with her that was, you know, kind of also a solid friendship.

She was great. I mean, Carolyn was She was so smart, she was funny. She was also very protective of John. I think she instinctually knew from the beginning when she saw sort of what his life was like, that he could be vulnerable, and he could be vulnerable to people and people who weren't always trustworthy, and she felt this sort of mama bear instinct of protecting him. And I think he loved that. I think he loved that she did that. And I also think that they were, you know, they were buddies. They were like, you know, they would go home and giggle and gossip about the day, and they'd poke fun at each other and tease each other all the time. And I think he loved that. I think he had a relationship with her that was, you know, kind of also a solid friendship.

In fact, Gary Ginsberg, his friend from law school, told you Carolyn had all the discernment that John Black like, honey, he's playing you, or Honey, you don't need to do that. She was the eyes and ears that he sometimes didn't have. Part of John's charm was he would say yes to a lot of things. She brought a certain discipline to that. So she was kind of the bad comp it sounds like in the relationship in some ways she was.

In fact, Gary Ginsberg, his friend from law school, told you Carolyn had all the discernment that John Black like, honey, he's playing you, or Honey, you don't need to do that. She was the eyes and ears that he sometimes didn't have. Part of John's charm was he would say yes to a lot of things. She brought a certain discipline to that. So she was kind of the bad comp it sounds like in the relationship in some ways she was.

And I think that was hard for her because I think she got a lot of the heat for when he started to say no and when he became a little bit, you know, less available to people, especially after they got married. As you know, many of us know, you get married, you're not as out and about, you're not as available, you're not hanging out with your buddies all the time. And I think I think there was some resentment from people, you know, towards Carolyn because of that, because of the fact that she was protective, and also because of the fact that John was being sort of taken away from people.

And I think that was hard for her because I think she got a lot of the heat for when he started to say no and when he became a little bit, you know, less available to people, especially after they got married. As you know, many of us know, you get married, you're not as out and about, you're not as available, you're not hanging out with your buddies all the time. And I think I think there was some resentment from people, you know, towards Carolyn because of that, because of the fact that she was protective, and also because of the fact that John was being sort of taken away from people.

Right you can see that happening, right, People starting to resent her because she brought some as Gary said, discipline into the relationship and obviously he couldn't do everything. He sounds like he was almost like a Labrador retriever he was friendly and wanted to please people, but she was able to rein him in in a good way.

Right you can see that happening, right, People starting to resent her because she brought some as Gary said, discipline into the relationship and obviously he couldn't do everything. He sounds like he was almost like a Labrador retriever he was friendly and wanted to please people, but she was able to rein him in in a good way.

Yeah, And she also was able to say to him like, why are you doing it? Why are you going? Or she wanted him to sort of come to it on his own, but she was sort of the catalyst for that. And she would very much like say to him I don't think you should go, and here's why, or I don't think you should do that and here's why. And they had heated discussion sometimes about it. But she was, you know, she was really it was always about his best interest.

Yeah, And she also was able to say to him like, why are you doing it? Why are you going? Or she wanted him to sort of come to it on his own, but she was sort of the catalyst for that. And she would very much like say to him I don't think you should go, and here's why, or I don't think you should do that and here's why. And they had heated discussion sometimes about it. But she was, you know, she was really it was always about his best interest.

And after all, she did have a career in pr, so she understood how the press worked. So probably her her council was probably pretty helpful to him at times. I wanted to ask Liz about the wedding because that photo of them emerging on Cumberland Island off the host of Georgia is so iconic. Tell us a little bit about that photo and why it was so captivating.

And after all, she did have a career in pr, so she understood how the press worked. So probably her her council was probably pretty helpful to him at times. I wanted to ask Liz about the wedding because that photo of them emerging on Cumberland Island off the host of Georgia is so iconic. Tell us a little bit about that photo and why it was so captivating.

Yeah, I think, you know, as we were reporting the story or reporting the details, it was like no detail was too small because this was such a magical wedding. And Rose spoke to go go Ferguson who's the woman who runs the Gray Field in which is where the guests stayed and they had the dinner and she sort of helped arrange. Just these details were so magical. And I remember Go Go described Carolyn's dress as she said she looked like a Kali lily, and I just thought, oh, like, it's so beautiful and what a perfect description. And then there's another place where she said it was like cream was porto for her body, and I thought, wow, that's an incredible description. So they're all these beautiful details, and you know, and Rose was very involved in, you know, in some of that, and there was like this element of not di I y. But you know, when you think about these big weddings that we report.

Yeah, I think, you know, as we were reporting the story or reporting the details, it was like no detail was too small because this was such a magical wedding. And Rose spoke to go go Ferguson who's the woman who runs the Gray Field in which is where the guests stayed and they had the dinner and she sort of helped arrange. Just these details were so magical. And I remember Go Go described Carolyn's dress as she said she looked like a Kali lily, and I just thought, oh, like, it's so beautiful and what a perfect description. And then there's another place where she said it was like cream was porto for her body, and I thought, wow, that's an incredible description. So they're all these beautiful details, and you know, and Rose was very involved in, you know, in some of that, and there was like this element of not di I y. But you know, when you think about these big weddings that we report.

On and wedding planners and like my daughters go on.

On and wedding planners and like my daughters go on.

Roses printing out the taking late at night at the George office and.

Roses printing out the taking late at night at the George office and.

Printing out the programs at the George office on the printer, you know, at ten o'clock at night, because we couldn't send them somewhere to be printed. It would we were afraid it wouldn't get out, you know. And also, as you probably know, Katie, Cumberland is an island, so everything has to be shipped there. You can't, you know, it has to be ferried over. So it had to be coordinated that way. And I think just the fact that they decided to do it the way they did it, which was forty people, their closest friends and family members, and it really made it special.

Printing out the programs at the George office on the printer, you know, at ten o'clock at night, because we couldn't send them somewhere to be printed. It would we were afraid it wouldn't get out, you know. And also, as you probably know, Katie, Cumberland is an island, so everything has to be shipped there. You can't, you know, it has to be ferried over. So it had to be coordinated that way. And I think just the fact that they decided to do it the way they did it, which was forty people, their closest friends and family members, and it really made it special.

It really made it unique and special.