Jen Psaki knows a thing or two about politics. The former Obama communications director and Biden press secretary has spent nearly 20 years in politics–now she’s breaking down what happened in the 2024 election and what she thinks the next Trump administration could look like. Katie and Jen talk about how the media ecosystem impacted the election results, what can be done at the state level to protect against some of Trump’s policies, and the future of the Democratic party. Their conversation wasn’t all doom and gloom–Jen has some words of wisdom that will leave you hopeful about the weeks and years to come. (PS–Tune into her show on MSNBC, ‘Inside with Jen Psaki’, which airs Sundays at 12pm ET and Mondays at 8pm ET.)
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Oh my. Here we are a little more than a week after the election by the time this podcast drops, and I don't know about you all, but I'm still kind of shaking my head, wondering how this happened, what went wrong or right for depending on where you stand, what the Democratic Party did wrong? What did the Harris campaign perhaps do wrong. I've read so many analysis pieces I can't even tell you from all different publications. Probably some of my followers will think, well, Katie, you're reading publications that confirm your pre existing beliefs, and if that's true, guilty is charged. I probably have been reading those publications. But I felt like one of the best people we could talk to about all of this is my friend Jensaki. Jen of course, served under two administrations, the Obama administration the Biden administration, and now she is crushing it over at MSNBC. I think she's a really welcome and much needed voice. Although we can talk about the media as well with Jen. Jen, gosh, Hi so much to discuss.
How are you?
I mean, Hi, I have spent the last several days just as ever. Probably anyone listening has really thinking about all of the things you just said, reading so many pieces. There's a lot of takes out there. A lot of them are bad, but some of them are interesting. And what I've tried to really force myself to do in this moment is be humble about what I misread and what I didn't see, what many of us misread. I'm not the only one, and what it tells us about a huge disconnect out there from the party with There are a lot of reasons.
Why yes, but I have so many.
I've tried to be very introspective about that and not blame. I think there's also a lot of blame gaming going on out there, which I don't think. That doesn't mean you can't be critical. It just means people who say this is the fault of all white women, it's like we're fault of Latinos. It's like, as you know, Katie, that's not how democracy works. I mean, people decide who they want to vote for based on who they think is going to best represent their views. You either move people to do that or you don't. So that's what I've spent the last couple of days. For me, it's like digging into it and studying and being in the research phase, and that's where I feel like I am in this moment.
I also think it's going to be helpful, Jen. I think when you started at MSNBC, correct me if I'm wrong. I have this bonehead idea. I was like, Jen, why don't you do your show every weekend from a different location. Why don't you go to the middle of the country. Why don't you do the show from Dayton, Ohio. Why don't you do the show from Houston, Texas. Why don't you better references what the American people are thinking and feeling. Now, of course I'm patting myself on the back for that idea, but honestly, I think you're right. I think that the media is occupied by coastal elites who pretty much all went to pretty good schools. They don't represent a real diversity of backgrounds socioeconomically anyway. And that's not true. You know, I'm making a generalization here, but for the most part, and I just feel like they're also not reporting out in the field as much. I mean, one of the things that bugs me when I watch cable news, and by the way, we're talking about very small percentage of the population that's actually watching cable news these days. Is I never see them talking to real people. They're always sitting at a desk, you know, doing a lot of naval gazing. I mean that's not to say I don't really appreciate hearing what these very smart people have to say. You know, I love your show, Jen, I love hearing you talk to people. But it does feel like it is just not touching and not talking and not sharing stories of people's lives. And it's just gotten very super high level, and nobody seems to be really rolling up their sleeves and getting out there in the country and talking to voters.
Yeah. There's a lot of reasons for that too, as you know. I mean, one thing that's expensive. It's expensive. That's one of them. And I remember us talking about that. And I have tried to go out as much as I can and actually spent I mean, I was in Michigan a week before the election. I've gone out on the road with candidates. You do have actual I was in New Hampshire for days around the Republican primary, and to your point, you do have actual, real conversations that make you question and think. One of the things I've thought a lot about And I can only speak for myself and how I approach things moving forward is that you get into an easy cycle of what is your reaction to this crazy thing Trump said? What is your reaction to that crazy thing? Trump said? And as you know, and I'd be interested in your thought on this, for given your long history, he is still a story. He's the president elect of the United States. People can't not cover him or not talk about him. But I do wonder if the react to the crazy thing he said is the most informative and right way that we should be approaching things.
Yeah, I think a lot of people are looking at that, did journalists And by the way, you know, we'll talk about this. Media is so fragmented. I always say mass media is now at oxymoron. So when you even say the media, who and what are you talking about? But I see your point. I think often they missed the forest for the trees, because I think the focus was probably a little bit more on the candidate and his outrageous behavior instead of the fans and the people who were gravitating and attracted to him and why. But wouldn't it have been interesting if you had taken a Trump's support order a week and really gone home with that person and talked about their lives and talked about, you know, what they were worried about, and talked about how they were struggling to raise their kids, or talked about all kinds of things. You know, this feeling of global insecurity and pain for all these wars when we have so many problems at home. I think it might have been really illuminating.
Jin Well.
I also think certainly longtime Trump supporters are part of it, absolutely, But I also think for the Democratic Party and also for the media in a different way, And I want to come back to that in a second. It's people who left the Democratic Party who had long supported Democratic candidates or Democratic policies and decided they weren't being heard anymore. And those people maybe they stayed home. Maybe they voted for Trump, but maybe they didn't vote at all. And there's a group that I feel like wasn't heard or listened to either.
But that's not a new phenomenon, Jen, I mean, we've seen sort of this, this shift by blue collar, working class folks in this country moving towards the Republican Party. And maybe it would have looked hollow. But I have a friend and we talk about this stuff all the time. We were like, why isn't Kamala Harris going out and talking to more factory workers. Why isn't she like putting on a hard hat and really talking to people everyday people a little bit more. I think she could have done that throughout the administration. But what were we talking about.
I have so many things on my headshet and I don't want to get off topic of What we were talking about is like having the conversations with the people who really I mean. The other thing I think and I don't want to get off the topic of working class voters because I think that is a big Yes, you're right, the trends have been moving. In the trends they've been moving. I do think this was a very startling outcome in terms of the big shifts among many different demographic groups, Latino men, young people. I mean, it was not just one, it was not just white working class voters. It was beyond right, which I think is something that's important to be part of the conversation. The other thing I think that's important to reflect on is just a misread of abortion politics and what I mean by that is, the majority of the country does believe in a woman's right to make choices about her own healthcare, bodily autonomy, whatever you want to call it, abortion whatever. Seven states voted to protect abortion rights and still voted for Trump, right, and there was this assumption. I'm not the only one, but I'm just reflecting on my own assumptions that were inaccurate, that both people who voted to protect it or felt strongly about it would recognize that he was a person who opposed it, and that's not.
True, and why didn't they?
I am also a believer. We don't know all the answers yet. So this is how I've thought about it to day. How I've thought about it to date is either there is a belief that he wasn't a believer in abortion band and he sort of said different iterations of that over the course of time, despite his role in nominating Supreme Court justices who did implement that policy or did rule that way. People may have just this is why it's interesting talk to these people, and I don't know. This is why I don't know the answer yet. May have made had the view that I can protect abortion rights this way, but I still think the economy is nobody's hearing me, and he hears me better, so I'm going to do both. I'm not sure. I don't know that we entirely know, but I think there was an overconfidence because of these special elections and because of the midterms where there is a smaller turnout, So perhaps the more exercised, excited people turn out, and a belief it was going to replicate itself. It didn't. There's a lesson in that somewhere. And I don't think we know all the answers yet.
I don't think he does give out the vibe, if you will, which seems to be the word of the year, that he feels super strongly about limiting abortion rights.
Right.
I think people see his lifestyle, but then you do look at the Supreme Court, then you do look at JD. Vance and you're like, how can you not be worried about this? And you know it's interesting. I know Ronald Reagan is how old I am, jen and you know he campaigned a lot on restricting abortion, I think in order to win over the evangelical vote, and then once in office, he basically made it Priority number seventy nine, like nothing was really ever done about it, So maybe people just since from Donald Trump, this wasn't an issue he cared about. But on the other hand, Jen, I mean, hello, you look at the Supreme Court justices and you look at you know, Dobbs, and you're thinking, wait, how can you compartmentalize these things?
That is my question. And in what's different now from the Reagan administration is, of course that the DBS decision happened. So states have the ability, as you know, and you've been talking about, to put in place their own laws, and we've seen the impact of those. So when Trump or Jade Vans or whomever it may be, says it should go back to the states, well we see how that goes. What it means is we have a country where half the states have restrictive laws that could lead to deaths in some cases women having sepsist, doctors being prosecuted, and half the states that don't. And that's what's also different.
But why didn't that resonate with more people? Which brings me back to the information ecosystem. Yeah, you know, I mean I think it is so fragmented. You can create your own digital diet or media diet, and you know, I heard so many people saying, well, it's fine to let the states decide as if the people of those states would be in a position. Well, they were in some cases right with a referenda that were voted on this go round. But somehow these stories did not penetrate or did not get through a lot of voters about the dangers of leaving it to states who would prohibit abortion even in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger. There are states like that out there, right chen.
Now, I think I have some ends I don't have, but I'll just be like a kumble about the place I don't have answers. And this is the place I feel like I need to do more studying and understanding. Is the disinformation space. I do think that unquestionably to me, you know, one of the things that's changed even since I got involved in politics is just the rise of the percentage of people who get their information off of platforms that have no fact checking mechanism and no accountability for having disinformation spread right right, And as you know, well, and I mean when I got started in democratic politics, you know, most of it was like local TV ads. That was what it was about. Obviously national TV, local print, local TV is held to a higher standard of accountability than social media platforms in terms of having accurate information on their platforms. That is crazy, And so it is, how does it change, How are people held to account? Laws have to change. I don't even know the total answer to it, but that seems to me to be a core issue. The other issue I think that is a real one is I don't think Joe Rogan deserves like one hundred percent credit of love Donald Trump being elected, but it was a misunderstanding of kind of also how people are getting their information and an undervaluing of some of those platforms that Trump was doing that either don't really exist on the other side or not in those not in the numbers exactly exactly.
Yeah, Yeah, And I also think, I mean, again, my head is swimming with so many with so many things that I've been trying to process over the last few days. You know, there's this whole theory about a huge backlash by young men and some older men, and perhaps that explained some of the Latino vote to this idea that women are making so many more strides. I mean, ostensibly, you look at medical schools and law schools and that you know, there was me too, there was Black Lives Matter, and suddenly I think people were still angry about affirmative action when it was in place, and they're sort of like, I thought this country was a meritocracy, and now I'm feeling screwed.
Yeah, And I think the feeling screwed takes many forms, right, And maybe people who it is sexism for wouldn't even admit to themselves that it's sexism, right.
I think that's so right, Jen.
I think that some people don't even recognize their implicit bias. I have a friend who said, I'm just worried that Kamala Harris doesn't have the stature to deal with world leaders And I thought, wow, this was a very successful woman, and I thought, maybe just replace stature with penis.
Yes, I was so honestly so.
That maybe replace stature with phenis got the mate out there.
But it was so it was so perplexing to me, and I was like, Oh, this this is someone who doesn't realize her deep seated implicit bias against female leadership.
Yes, and that is of it's so hard to measure because people don't even admit it to themselves, right, and it is I mean, in my on the Latino men part of this, which I think there's not one answer for.
But I agree, and I think we have to be careful stratifying society and the way we do with polls. I think Mike Murphy, I heard John Heilman say this on Bill Maher. So I'm quoting a quote of a quote, but Mike Murphy said, you know, when are we going to just call Latino men men? I mean it almost underscores or exacerbates this notion of identity politics, right.
Yes, And I think you know it depends on also, like no group is monolithic. Women are not monolithic. Clearly white women are not monolithic. But Latino men are not monolithic either. And the thing that Latino men in Florida might be grappling with, including like this notion of you know, socialism and communism and what it means if you came from a country where that was a dominant issue like Cuba, right in Cuba. And also Christina Landon, I'm going to quote someone now who sits next to me. She's a Telemundo, longtime Telemundo reporter, and I had dinner with her maybe three nights before the election, and she said to me something that stuck with me, which is like, sometimes the issues that democrats think are going to work for them, like democracy and abortion rights, work the reverse way amongst someone because there's sometimes more conservative social values. Anyway, It's my point is there's not a monolithic take here. I've also in my kind of research studying phase of this because this is my coping mechanism. Yeah, I've been reading Foala Ramos's book. It's called The Defectors, and it's about the Latino men who have become maga and why now it's not She's very, very humble in the book, but it's not conclusive. But part of it she talks about identity and identifying as an American versus identifying as an immigrant, and that's an interesting part of the conversation too. But I don't know the total answer, but I think it's one that is worth everyone continuing to learn and explore and listen more about.
I think that's true because I think often these pundits make these pronouncements right that are too general, that treat communities as monolithic and not as separate people, you know, separate even individual people and families, right, who have had very different experiences, as you said, certainly within the Latino community. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. What do you think about all the finger pointing at wokeness?
Now?
First of five, I hate that word, and I feel like it's been a bit overstated, but there does seem to be an increasing intolerance for being told how you're supposed to think and being told you're less than because you don't think a certain way.
I think that's it for me, and again I don't, But how I've thought about it is nobody likes to be condescended to or told that they have to hit a certain litmus test of things to be welcomed and invited in the party. And I think sometimes people feel that way about the Democratic Party. And I do think that some of the positions that Vice President Harris took when she was running for president in twenty nineteen, which I actually don't think are her positions because they weren't before and they weren't after. And there's an inauthenticity to that six months of her life, right, But which is a lesson for lots of people running for office. Be authentic to what you believe.
Yeah, my sister used to say. I don't know if you knew my sister was running for lieutenant governor with I think you and I have talked about this with Mark Warner. And then she got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and had to drop out, sadly tragically. And you know, Emily used to say to me, when you run for office, you have to be willing to lose. I think what she meant is you have got to adhere to your core values who you are as a person, and if you lose, then you're not meant to win. And you know, and I so respected that, and I think it speaks to as you were saying the twenty nineteen positions. But can I just add something, Jen, because I wonder if you've also thought about this. Seems to me people kind of forget that moment in time too. I mean it was sort of right on the heels of me too, right on the heels of Black Lives Matter. I think there were forces that were pulling everybody and I don't want to necessarily to say to the left, but maybe it was to the left. But this kind of realization, this feeling that you know, if you're a white American, you're to blame and there's something wrong with you, and that you're part of the problem, and you know, the whole Karen thing and all that. I wonder if her positions were in a way informed by that environment that we were experiencing, and that this election in a way was a repudiation or an expression of some of those feelings.
Does that make sense at all?
Yeah, Look, I think there is a huge swath of the population voters, voters i should say, who didn't feel heard or connected with the Democratic Party messaging and the top of the ticket. And that is not it's a divided country all the things. But there are policy issues that should be helpful to the very same people who voted against the Democratic Party platform and ticket right, including advocacy for a minimum wage, including like raising taxes on the highest income in corporate America. So that disconnect tells you it's about something bigger, Right, It's about feeling left out of the party, not feeling heard, feeling ignored. There are lots of things that could be the reasoning for it. But yes, I do think that is certainly a part of it. You know, I also think there have been some major shifts, and immigration is one of them. And this is where I'm kind of like my personal views aside. You'd have to put them aside when you're looking at the political spectrum, right, immigration and the issue has become the country has become increasingly conservative on that issue, right. And I look at even the bipartisan border bill that obviously didn't move forward, that was an incredibly conservative bill.
I know.
I wish they had made a point of how Trump convinced Republicans not to even vote on it because it would weaken his ability to weaponize immigration.
They've made me so mad.
I may yes they tried. It always felt like a hard message to me, not in a fair way, but because you're explaining, like how he prevented a legislative process from moving forward. But what stuck out to me about that bill is I think only five or six Democratic senators voted against it. I think it would have been twenty or twenty five a couple of years ago. So to your point about where kind of the shifts have been, that's one of the areas. And remember that same twenty nineteen primary was when nearly everybody on stage raised their hand that they would decriminalize border crossings. Right. The politics on that have changed a lot, and I think it is also related to feeling ignored, left behind by a broad swath of working class America. That's part of Also.
I think it might be reflected by you know what was mostly derided by some of those border states and governors in terms of taking some of these immigrants and putting them on planes and sending them to New York City and sending them to other areas around the world. And I remember I have a friend who's pretty conservative who lives in Florida, and I said, what do you think of that? And she said, I thought it was great. And I think the point is that, you know, listen, we can't have completely porous borders, right, you know, there has to be some system for immigration. And I think one of the other things that was undercovered was the strain on social services that a huge influx. And now, of course it's not they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats situation in that gross, you know, bigoted way, But there is a genuine concern for I think a lot of these communities that can absorb the number of people who are coming in, and it can lead to more homelessness, you know, as you know, and I think it constrains school systems and hospitals. So, you know, I would have liked to have seen that story be told and then talk to the candidates about like what should be done and along those lines. Since you were in the Biden administration, why didn't they do more? And why when he was elected jin was there almost a reversal almost to come on in This is my impression and you can correct the record if I'm wrong. Sort of this overreaction to the build the Wall rhetoric that led to too big of an influx immigrants, you know, getting rid of the remain in Mexico policy and all those things. So was that kind of an f you to Trump? And in retrospect, was that not the right thing to do?
Well? So a lot of things on this I think sort of everybody's at fault in Washington in some ways because immigration is such a politically charged issue that people are unwilling to compromise on it and have real negotiations and discussions about it. I mean, Biden proposed an immigration bill that included increased border security and a more humane asylum processing the first day, right right, no one would discuss it, No one would come to the White House and meet with him about it. I'm not saying that he's blameless. I'm just saying like that tells you a lot about politics. Often brought that up during the campaign. Yeah, that is true. What is also true is that because the COVID restrictions were in place for so long, that was in many ways artificially keeping the numbers lower until they were flipped back. And then during that period of time, there was the negotiation with Mexico about re implementing the Remain in Mexico program, which was there was a lot of criticism of and a lot of people who hated that, especially from the left. So I think there was a delayed reaction to where clearly the country was moving on immigration by I don't actually not really Joe Biden, but a lot of people in the system and the Democratic Party within the caucuses, and it wasn't very clear to me that it had moved massively until that bipartisan border bill. So yes, hindsight's always twenty twenty. But I think looking now, there are aspects of how the party should proceed from here which I think this election should be partly informative about, including acknowledging that the bore and having a secure border is a part of what the Democratic Party messaging needs to be proactively, you know. Yeah.
On the other hand, though, I think we should point out how Donald Trump and the party exploited the immigration issue with false information about the crimes that were committed and really misrepresented the fact that actually immigrants commit fewer crimes than native foreign citizens in this country. But I think it just got so twisted and exploited, and the fear and the you know, fentanyl and all that stuff. I think it got mixed up in one big bowl and made people just terrified, and to the point where for a lot of Americans, rounding up people and having a mass deportation of thirteen million immigrants sounded like a good idea, which.
Is wrapping my head around that particular conclusion is one that's been a particular, a very perplexing one to grapple. I mean, when you also listen to focus groups and things, people will when they learn more about it, they don't love it, right, So, which is a relief, I suppose. But I'm glad you brought all of that up. And I think that the pieces of this that this is a perfect disinformation example, right. I mean, actually, the border numbers have been down over the last couple of months.
And I even looked up last night, you know about crimes, you know, the crime rate among the immigrant population, and I thought I would see what I saw with my own eyes, but that it was just incredibly and cruelly manipulated by the Trump campaign to a point that it was really grotesque.
Yeah, as has crime numbers in major cities, which is not where actually crime has gone up. And there is also we are still the United States of America, where we are a country of immigrants, right. There is still a humanity side of this that I know.
But it's it's really it's perplexing and disturbing that. You know, I saw something on social media. You might have seen it too, Jen, because I have a feeling we're probably fed the same content. But it was I think it was an Asian comedian who was interviewing a white guy, probably in his sixties at a Chinese restaurant and the guy basically said I don't want the white race to be replaced. I mean it was sort of white nationalists rhetoric that has been somewhat normalized.
I want to know how it is for Donald Trump when you're so into facts, because his entire campaign is not based in facts.
It was all based in propaganda and emotion.
I voted for Donald Trump for one reason only. His policies, if implemented, would slow the dispossession of whites in the United States. If you were to deport all illegally, if you were to think very hard about letting in any mushoms, all of this would slow the rate at which whites are becoming a minority.
I did a documentary series for NATCHIU in twenty eighteen, and one of the subjects was white anxiety. And you know, I think there are a lot of people when you think of the fact that there is going to be a majority minority population by twenty forty four in this country, really feel like that as a white American, I'm losing my place in this country.
And I don't think.
People people are excited, or a lot of people are not excited about a pluralistic society.
Yeah, in this group and it just breaks my heart.
It breaks my heart too. It is where the country has been headed for some time, right, And there is the left behind aspect of this, which there's lots of reasons for, but social media is one of them right where people are looking at social media and thinking everybody has it better than me, right, and that includes I think a lot of communities where the factory where their grandparents worked, right, No longer is the factory that's driving an amazing life right where.
No, totally.
I talked to somebody in Nebraska about this who worked at a meat packing plan. He was paid, you know, a good salary where he could raise his kids and have a middle class life in this small rural town in Nebraska. And then union started losing power. They started importing. The company started importing lower wage workers from Mexico and other countries. And then another guy talked to in Nebraska was like, they're doing jobs that a lot of Americans don't want to do. They don't want to work in a meat processing plan. And a lot of the employees who are immigrants are grateful to be able to, you know, have a full time, steady job.
So it's so complex, isn't it.
Jen, It is incredibly complex. I think lots of different communities see this differently. The business community obviously sees this differently from people in communities that have changed massively. Even the communities that have changed massively, a lot of people in those communities and may not want to do those jobs. To your point, you know, there's also issues which I think we're going to see, not exact replication, I hope not, but some of. I mean, the person who Trump just named to be his borders are is the person who is responsible for family separations. Is that what people want?
Well?
Did you hear that guy on the podcast I forget his name who said, Yeah, we're going to round up We're going to deport grandmothers, were going to deport wives and husbands, We're going to put children in cages. It's going to be glorious. Do you know who I'm talking Oh?
Yes, Mike Davis. Am I thinking he's the right person?
Yes?
And the guy I'm talking about is Holman, who was announced as the as the border czar, who basically has said governors others who if you try to resist me, will come double our numbers of law enforcement who come to your state. Who's talked about re implementing workplace raids. Is that what people want in these communities. I think we'll see, and I don't wish that upon any community, but I do think that we're going to see in the coming months what people voted for.
What do you think about people speaking of that, like Gavin Newsom and Governor Pritzker trying to figure out ways to protect their states from certain policies that the Trump administration wants to enact.
I think that is going to be one. To me, it's one of the most interesting spaces to watch, as much as I think many of the people who voted for Kamala Harris and mail millions of Democrats independents out there feel very lost for Lorne looking for property in Canada. Whatever they're doing right now.
Well there, I think, especially because they're the guard rails of disappeared, you know, with the House, the Senate, the you know, judiciary, the executive branch is like, fuck me, what are.
We supposed to do?
Exactly?
So excuse my French every week, that's all.
Right, don't worry. Yes, So to me, it is interesting for two reasons. One is that to me is one of the guardrails is governors in these states who are already conveying they're going to push back more heally in Massachusetts it's another one of them.
But isn't that dangerous on one level? I mean, it takes a lot of hutzpa to do that, because I know Kathy Hokeel got on the phone with Donald Trump, and you know that isn't without risks in terms of what retribution he could level at certain states.
Right, that's true. But I think these governors are showing who's got the hutzpah right and who is going to do everything they can to lead and protect to the best of their ability, the people in their states. I also think it's interesting because right now there's no leader of the Democratic Party, and that is a vacuum, but a good one because people are going to emerge, right I don't know who they are. We'll see, but some of them, maybe some of these governors who push back, we'll see.
Well, I mean, Gavin Newsom, what a surprise, you mean, he's has national ambitions. But other than that, But other than Gavin Newsom, and I guess who are some of the people Jen You're going to be keeping an eye on in terms of rising stars we wanted to do a whole series with and it kind of fell apart. But I thought it would have been so smart to say, you know, everyone's bemoaning the fact that there aren't enough leaders, and I wanted to say, well, here's some people who are doing great things. Keep your eye on these folks.
But it didn't. It didn't come together.
But you still do that. Should do what we're doing it. We're doing it. I mean, we just had you know, I think there are a lot of governors. But I also will say, and I'll come back in a second. We just had the new mayor of Tulsa, Oklahoma on yesterday, and first African American mayor, and that's city's history, given the history of Tulsa. A pretty remarkable young guy, so compelling and interesting. We also had Justin Jones and Mallory mcmarrow on are those people all going to be president in four years?
I don't know who Justin Jones and Mallory are so.
Well here now I'm going to tell you so. Justin Jones is a state rep in Tennessee. He was one of the Tennessee three.
Oh oh, I know of him, right.
He is incredibly compelling and powerful and has been fearless in fighting for INSUC believes in a red state. Mallory mcmarrow you should check her out on Instagram because she's been answering reader questions or viewer questions hard ones. She's a state senator in Michigan. She ran in twenty eighteen after Trump won in twenty sixteen, and she I talked to them because I think it is important for people to see new faces and different faces and inspiring faces and people who are fighting back. There weren't number of people who won in states that Trump won, I mean, including a re election. Dammy Baldwin won reelection right in Nevada, Jackie Rose in one reelection. Alissa Slatkin is a new senator from Michigan. There are now two black women who are senators. Those were not Trump one states, but still inspiring. But in terms of rising stars, some of it is we don't entirely know yet. And what's cool about democracy is we don't actually pick you and I as much as we've done this for a long time, you know. But some of the people I think will be interesting to watch, I mean obviously knew Someome Pritzker more.
Less more more Maryland everybody and very inspiring life story, very charismatic guy.
Very Yeah, he did a full University of Maryland football practice. That's not the most important thing, but you know, an interesting thing and shotgunna beer for people who think that's compelling. Some will obviously Governor Shapiro, but I think it's it could be beyond that, you know, I think there's mayors who are interesting, there are younger state members of Congress who are interesting. And I think it's just going to be interesting to see who rises, because this is the vacuum means people rise, some rise who you don't know of, some rise and fail who you think are going to be the next thing. And that's what's interesting about this moment.
And some come out of nowhere, like Jimmy Carter out of planes Georgia, like who knew, right, he knew.
And in some ways differently. But Barack Obama, I mean, he had given that speech in two thousand and four, right, Carrie lost, but like nobody thought he was going to be the nominee. No one thought he would have a chance of winning. He did four years later, So we'll see.
Do you know, how do you think Joe Biden is feeling right now.
Oh, I have not spoken with him, and not that you were asking me that, but just for clarity for your listeners, I think sad and probably pretty dark about this moment.
Do you think he feels at all responsible?
I don't know if that's where his head is at. I really don't know. I think he probably looks at where working class voters were and wonders if he the party. I'm not sure Harris should have been doing something differently and better. I mean, you know, his I like, I always think about a lot of some of the conversations I had with him when I was the press secretary, where he would always tell me that's not how people talk, right. You know, There'd be language that was spit out of the bureaucratic system and he'd say, like, nobody talks like that and scran Pennsylvania. Now, I'm not suggesting I think Harris did far better than he would have done had he remained the nominee. So I'm not suggesting that. I do think that he probably has a mixture of emotions right now about how the party communicated about I don't know if it's the timing of when he dropped out. I don't know if he thinks he could have done better. I don't know what's going on in his head right now.
I think he's probably wondering about his legacy too.
His legacy, I think is the biggest thing, and this is you know, I remember I was working for President Obama when Trump won, and I was his communications director, and the first twenty four to forty eight hours was really more on a very personal, visceral level for people in the building what does this mean for them? And I'm not trying to be cheesy about it, but people really were like, I'm a Muslim American, Like, what does this mean for me? You know, I'm from the LGBTQ plus community, what does this mean for me? It was very personal. That was what everybody was doing. We weren't thinking about the legacy. It quickly moved there, though, to a point where it felt like so many people in the country knew that Trump was racist and sexist and just looked the other way. And it felt disappointing right not in individuals, but felt like maybe we haven't made as much progress as a country as we thought we had. And I think for Biden, he just worked for eight years as Vice president four years in between four years more as president worked to make progress on a lot of things that he has right to be proud of.
I feel like that could have been you know, I'm telling the Press Secretary, but I do think Jen maybe they weren't up to speed on the way people get information either, I think President Biden, and please disagree with me if you don't think this is the case, but you know, and everything is hindsight is twenty twenty, but I feel like they were kind of operating a twenty twenty press organization in a nineteen ninety kind of way. I think they were slow to understand the power of social media. I think they were still showing up on Meet the Press and thinking that was really going to have an impact. And I respect Meet the Press, and you know, I'm not putting down legacy media, but it seems like, you know, there was this almost had in the sand idea or kind of resorting to the same old, same old that did not serve them well, where they weren't really able to explain their accomplishments that they didn't kind of talk where all these you know, people are getting information on all these fragmented ways. I think they were kind of slow to pick that up. What do you think?
Yeah, I agree with some of it and not some of it. So I think one they definitely weren't doing meet the press. You can ask the people doing the.
Oppress there, right, but you know when they would.
Okay, okay, so you can ask them, they would tell you they never engaged with them. I think there are people on the team, including there's a guy named Rob Flaherty who ran the digital team for Biden and continued with Harris, who I think is, no, you don't really have money of money on the campaign you don't have in the White House, who built very large followings and to the best of his ability within his constraints, and his team did really amazing things.
Well, I thought the Harris campaign was was doing an awesome t I'm talking about I'm talking about the Biden administry, same people doing the stuff. Did they just not have any money?
You don't have money in the White House for any of it, so you have it on a campaign. I also, though, think that there has to be candidates who have the agility to do those things right, and I don't know that anybody who was at a certain age has that. It real agility, right.
It's just Kamala Harris did.
She's younger, right, but I still think but I also don't as much like.
Rad Summer, which was cool, didn't work. Young people didn't turn out. So like I think, there's also like a lot of things about they can control and things they can't, including there isn't the same ecosystem on the left, including you need to have people who are willing to do a range of things. And yes, she was willing to do a lot of things, not all of the things, but a range of things.
And there was that three week blackout period which I honestly could not understand.
That was making me crazy, just as I also what was that? I think, I don't know. I think maybe a focus on the debate and the debate being a moment where but let's just be real, debates are important for the American people. They do not. This is also like an outdated view of like how elections will turn. In my view, you should do this.
Should have been everywhere everywhere.
But also Tim Walls, who was this kind of like so appealing rough around the edges guy during veepstakes where he propelled himself onto the ticket essentially and then he disappeared from public view for like four months. I don't think it would have changed the outcome. I think there's like lots of factors as soon as I've digested it, but it is a you have to be fearless and how you communicate and who and what formats you communicate on, and that means doing all of the things, including with people you disagree with who are going to be tough. I actually thought one of her better interviews was with Brett Baer, like she liked being on you know, oh, having a tough interview. You know.
So I think I always find that people do better when they're asked really challenging, pointed questions. I always felt that about Hillary Clinton. If you are giving them these almost weird like amorphous softballs, it's really hard to kind of hone your message and be succinct and say what you really need to say. But I, you know, listen. I I also felt that, and again I think she really did well in so many areas, but I was frustrated by her inability to really succinctly answer questions at times, jen and to kind of like if she was asked about changing the Supreme Court at that CNN to Hall. She had an opportunity to talk about ethics and what you know Alito and Clarence Thomas were doing, and she answered like in one sentence and then like went on to something that had nothing to do with the question. You know, people notice that, and it's like, answer the goddamn question, please.
I mean, yeah, I love this is I'm seeing the Katie Kirk I watched on TV for so many years.
And I'm so hungry. I didn't never say God, damn, I know, but.
You thought it. This is my kind of like unsolicited advice to every person who may run for president. And I'm not picking any ponies. Whatever pony emerges emerge, sit down and think about why are you running for president? Right What is the most driving important thing for you? So you can answer that question and then explore what you actually think about the hard questions of the day. It doesn't have to be what's poll tested. In fact, ignore that. What do you think should happen on immigration? What do you think should happen in Israel? Every one of them should be able to for themselves answer those questions, and this is the time to do that right now. Explore those things, learn more about areas you don't know and form your own opinion.
Well, one of the most damaging things was when she did go on the View and they made Hay over this when she said, I really can't think of a single thing she'd do differently than Joe Biden. First of all, Jen, you're an insider. Why didn't Joe Biden say, listen, I know you're going to have to separate yourself from this administration. Let's talk about areas where you can, where they're legitimate and godspeed. Because I think somebody wrote that it was almost as if they were more afraid of hurting Joe Biden's feelings than winning the election. Okay, help me out here, Jen.
I wish that would have happened. I don't know that it didn't, but I think we can all assume it didn't, right, And I think.
You mean that come to Jesus conversation script.
Yeah, because I've worked for a lot of people in different circumstances. I mean, this was an incredibly I'm not making this as an excuse, but unique and painful summer for Joe Biden, for everybody around him, for major leaders of the Democratic Party who he'll probably never speak to again like Nancy Pelosi, and there was a fragility. There was also What's also true, and I think this may have been weighed the wrong way, is that when Joe Biden made the decision, he did for good reason. He was beloved by the Democratic Party, and I think in her mind there's a she navigated the politics of that in a very tricky way, right right, So, I don't know. I think that answer on the view was she had many moments of brilliance. That was not one of them.
Well why couldn't.
I mean, it seems to me if I were running for president, Jen, I would sit down with my you know, brain trust, and I'd be like, okay, let's play out these questions. What am I going to say yeah to this? And I would have had a template that I would have carried around with me in every interview, and I would have reviewed them and said, you know, this is what I believe and this is how I'm going to handle a question like that. Now, it just didn't seem like that was done. Am I crazy?
Well, we don't know, you know. And here's the thing. Looking at the first biteen debate, this is a different thing. But I've prepped a lot of people who you know what they should say, and then they ignore your advice. So I don't know if that happened, And like she just in the moment felt like she should just not not differentiate. She kind of over the course of time she started differentiating herself, but it was a little bit on the margins, right, right, and it wasn't something I think people could bite into now. She also had some challenges. Any sitting vice president has say on Gaza, right, which is like, I actually don't know what her view is on that issue. I don't know, but she's the sitting vice president. She can't come out with a massively different position than the sitting president while security people and diplomats are negotiating a deal. She was kind of stuck on that right.
Right, So I don't There was this impression, I guess, and I guess because of the Abraham Accords and moving the embassy right. I mean, so there was this I think pre baked feeling on the part of some voters that Donald Trump was going to be much stronger for Israel. And I think when she expressed and which I think is so sad, the inability to think dialectically and say yes, and is just been lost in this country. But I think when she expressed even sympathy for people who had, you know, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, I think a lot of people interpreted that as not being strong enough for Israel.
Yes, and the politics, I mean, the humanity of the issue, as you just touched on, is the humanity of the issue. There's also, of course families that lost loved ones who were killed by Hamas all. Of course, of course all is true. I know I'm not saying, but all is true. I think for her, the politics of it were such that before she became the nominee, there was a feeling that the Democratic Party, by some Jewish Americans not all, was aligning themselves or not doing enough to push back on anti Semitism. Right. You saw that in focus groups a lot. I don't think that was talked about enough as a real issue. And then you also had young people, communities of color, obviously college campuses, who felt there was an ignoring of the human humanitarian tragedies and got both were happening at the same time. And I Trump somehow screwed it it right, and he his view and we'll see if this is what he implements is that Netnahu, she gets to do whatever he wants and should plow for it and level Gaza, and like that's all fine. You know.
I talked to a friend of mine who said her daughter went to this Ivy League school and a lot of her friends didn't vote to send a message to Kamala Harris about Gaza.
They essentially voted to alec Donald Trump, whose position is Gaza who Gaza?
What?
Ntan Yahoo? Who? By the way, many Jewish Americans and people in Israel do not like right right, So he's saying give him free pass that. It does not make a lot of sense to me.
I just yeah, I mean, listen, I know people feel passionately, but it just seems like by not voting, they were giving the election to somebody who, as you said, you know, is not going to even listen to their concerns about what is going on. And one last question, Jen, I just want to ask one question about Trump's behavior, Jen, Can you explain why his behavior, his language, which his coarseness and crudeness, why a lot of people seem to like that. I mean, every time I'd hear him say something, and I guess maybe again it's a backlash to quote unquote wokeness or political correctness. You know, it's part of that. But when I saw him pretending to give the mic a blowjob, I was like, oh my god. And then other people like I looked at the people in the background, they were laughing. Does it just not matter how somebody comports themselves in our society anymore? Maybe we're just like, I don't know, are we out of step?
I mean, I don't think of myself as prude in any way, shape or form. I can talk about all the things, but I the crudeness, I guess. I think maybe people find funny, and maybe the talking about sharks and electrocuting and whatever that craziness people find funny. What I do have a hard time understanding is the cruelty and the cruelty and why that is okay Because I don't know. I don't think of myself as naive. I generally think of people, most human beings, as being kind, right and rooting for other humans. And you know the things he says when he talks about Hannibal Lecter, I'm like, that is weird and creepy. But some people, maybe they find that funny I don't know, but the cruelty is what I don't have an answer for, and I can't really understand.
I wanted to ask you one of the questions that a lot of people submitted when they heard that we were going to be talking. So many people asked if the Democrats were going to ask for a recount and why there are twenty million votes missing. I want to make sure everyone knows that there's been no evidence of voter fraud and the reason there are fewer votes is because there was a lower turnout this year compared to twenty twenty. But are you hearing that from a lot of your fellow Democrats or a lot of you viewers, Jen.
I hear that a lot on social media platforms, like people who and those are valid voices of course too, but like people who are replying and asking questions like that and not understanding to your point, there was a lower turnout and also there were still, at least there have been and there still are today votes being counted in California, which is always the case, but people forget that it takes a couple more weeks because of how California takes a while to count their votes. That's another topic for another podcast and why it takes so long. But there are laws in states that trigger recounts if it is too close, right, if it is within a margin. So I have heard that, but I think it's important for people to understand that the margins of victory were quite large in a lot of places, definitive, and that there were fewer people that turned out for Kamala Harris then turned out for Joe Biden, and there are a range of reasons for that. It was easier to vote four years ago. Trump was in their face, he was the sitting president. There are lots of things, as we've been discussing, but that's also just a reality of where things sit right now.
And looking forward. Jen, I know these are not your people, but we've heard names that will be occupying very important roles in a future Trump administration. Susie Wiles, who was so important to the Trump campaign, a least staphonic ambassador to the UN, Stephen Miller, Deputy chief of staff, the Immigration Customs Enforcement Director. You mentioned Tom Homan. He said, Nikki Haley and Mike Pompeio will not have a role, but obviously RFK Junior and Elon Muss are going to be pretty front and center in a Trump administration. So this is the Maga takeover of the US. What do you expect of this new regime? If you will? Maybe Rashima's right.
You know I will. There are people a last Stephanic was once kind of a rising star, moderate member of Congress, and she became full Maga. I have not thought enough about what that means for her role as a UN ambassador, although she has been a person who has been an eager advocate of Trump's position on let nat Yaho do whatever na Yah who wants. But I think the two that stick out to me there the most art that I've just been thinking about today are Stephen Miller and Tom Holman, in part because there's Trump loyalists returning, and loyalists to a greater degree than even we saw eight years ago. Now. To be fair, every president hires people who supports them, you know, who are like you are grateful to be there. This is a different level of that, though, because these are people who have shown this right, they're not going to question the other thing that has stuck out to me. We're going to use this in the show tonight, But is Stephen Miller did this interview after in like twenty seventeen. I think it was where he talked about the perception her his view of power right and executive power, and a lot of these people, those two specifically who will be in charge play big roles on mass deportations and immigration policy, view executive power, the power of the presidency as all powerful and bigger than any other power. And that is the part that I think will be quite telling. You've seen, like Tom Holman basically has said for states that push back, I'm going to double up, you know, the number of people who come into their states and enforce. So I don't know how that manifests itself. But Trump's view of his own power of executive power, obviously he doesn't view equal branches of power, and how the people who he's hired view that, I think is going to be part of the story we see in the first at least one I'll be watching.
Yeah, you know, it's almost as if Stephen Miller is Donald Trump's new Roy Khane.
Yeah, yes, one who is who has quite a view of white supremacy in the world.
Before we go, Jen, I want to end on a hopeful note. You have talked about the need for hope despite everything and the fear that a lot of people have. You know, let's be honest, there are people listening to this who are very excited about what's to come, maybe not every aspect, and maybe they'll be surprised. I guess it remains to be seen how much of Project twenty twenty five will actually be implemented if he is going to get rid of the Department of Education, the National Weather Service, you know, got the Civil Service, and basically replace those workers with people who pledge fealty to Donald Trump. Okay, Having said that, you have said there's reason to not feel powerless because I think given all the factors, people are like, well, what am I supposed to do? Yeah, and I watched you either it was on your show. I think I saw it on Instagram actually, which is where I get a lot of my experience.
There. I go like America, Katie.
Where you talked about the sort of ebb and flow of political power and how things change. So I thought maybe we'd end with you kind of talking about how history can be our guide on this.
Yeah, and I will just reiterate one quick thing you said, which is I mean I'm not trying to be and I said this, I think in the video or whatever, Woe may have been naive.
About Pollyanna, Pollyanna.
Ish about what Trump says he wants to do, and he will be successful in doing some of it, at least we'll see. We don't know yet, but I think there is an evan flow of history. And you know, I worked on the Carry campaign in two thousand and four, which obviously he lost to George W. Bush. And George W. Bush had brought the country into the war in Iraq, something that was quite unpopular. That John Kerrey had been a decorated war veteran who ran against him, speaking out against that, and on paper it felt like he would be the right person to defeat him, and he obviously didn't. And it opened up this period of time, and you remember this well, I'm sure where there was a lot of speculation, not in a partisan way, certainly Republicans but Democrats too, that maybe it was forever the Republican Party, maybe the Republican Party and the Party of Bush was the party of the foreseeable future, and it wasn't. In part because when you're in office and you're governing you're held to a different account. And in many ways, the country always looks for change and wants to hold to account the people who were in power, and that is a part of the story of twenty twenty four to two. Two years later, of course, the Democrats won back the House for the first time in over a decade. Nancy Pelosi became the first Speaker of the House, and two years after that, a guy with the middle name Hussain was elected to the presidency, someone who was not the establishment candidate, and most people wouldn't have predicted. I mean, people thought he was like a rising star, but I don't think people would have predicted he would have been the nominee. So I share that because this is different. Trump is different. George W. Bush Well obviously didn't vote for It looks pretty great these days, you know, to me, but there are cyclical things. Accountability is a thing. People do have power. I also talked about how the Affordable Care Act was something Trump ran planning to get rid of, and because of activism, because people showed up at events, because people said no, I want my healthcare. That didn't happen. So I know people are exhausted. People should rest for a minute or ten or twenty minutes. But the thing about democracy is it's designed for people to have power, including when you're in the opposition, and you know, once people are arrested. I hope people feel that well.
I love talking to you, Jen, thank you so much to thank you me and spending so much time.
I love talking to you, I love talking well. Thank you so much, Katie, I really appreciate it.
And congratulations on your success and I'm always cheering you on.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out.
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Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.