Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. We hear it every day. Americans are politically and culturally divided. But something we don't hear very often is that eighty seven percent of us are sick and tired of it. So if so many people feel this way, what can we do about it?

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. We hear it every day. Americans are politically and culturally divided. But something we don't hear very often is that eighty seven percent of us are sick and tired of it. So if so many people feel this way, what can we do about it?

At the essence, the overwhelming majority of human beings are wired to want to transcend what is happening to our society today. We are not designed to be nasty jerks, but ultimately comes to our daily habits.

At the essence, the overwhelming majority of human beings are wired to want to transcend what is happening to our society today. We are not designed to be nasty jerks, but ultimately comes to our daily habits.

Daniel Lebetsky is the founder of Kind Snacks. He's also a social entrepreneur. He's always believed in using business as a force for good, and his approach to the polarization problem is a non part in civic movement called Starts with Us. We'll also be talking to Peter Coleman. He's a professor at Columbia and he's working with Daniel's organization on conflict resolution along with two hundred and thirteen thought leaders and cultural figures. Daniel and Peter are taking on everything from extremist attitudes to divisive media to power hungry politicians, all in the name of what so many of us want a rational approach to solving our most intractable problems. By the way, if you want to get smarter every single morning with a breakdown of news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wakeup Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Heik getting on my ergonomic chair. Hi Daniel, or are you good? How are you very well? I'm very excited to talk to you because you are a very interesting person, and to say your backstory is fascinating is an understatement. I feel like getting to know you, we have to first get to know your father, because he was such an important influence on you, and his story I think very much shaped the person you are today. Tell us about your dad, Roman.

Daniel Lebetsky is the founder of Kind Snacks. He's also a social entrepreneur. He's always believed in using business as a force for good, and his approach to the polarization problem is a non part in civic movement called Starts with Us. We'll also be talking to Peter Coleman. He's a professor at Columbia and he's working with Daniel's organization on conflict resolution along with two hundred and thirteen thought leaders and cultural figures. Daniel and Peter are taking on everything from extremist attitudes to divisive media to power hungry politicians, all in the name of what so many of us want a rational approach to solving our most intractable problems. By the way, if you want to get smarter every single morning with a breakdown of news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wakeup Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Heik getting on my ergonomic chair. Hi Daniel, or are you good? How are you very well? I'm very excited to talk to you because you are a very interesting person, and to say your backstory is fascinating is an understatement. I feel like getting to know you, we have to first get to know your father, because he was such an important influence on you, and his story I think very much shaped the person you are today. Tell us about your dad, Roman.

Absolutely, I do think that my story starts with my family, and particularly with my dad, who was probably one of the greatest influences in my life. And he was a little kid when World War two started. Eventually he landed in a concentration camp in Dajau and he was liberated by American soldiers. And I can speak for hours about him, but I'll say that what was remarkable about my dad Katie, is that he was able to speak about the horrors of what he went through without it making him embittered about the world or about humanity. He was the kindest, sweetest person you'd meet, and every person he met it was like it was his mission to make their day better.

Absolutely, I do think that my story starts with my family, and particularly with my dad, who was probably one of the greatest influences in my life. And he was a little kid when World War two started. Eventually he landed in a concentration camp in Dajau and he was liberated by American soldiers. And I can speak for hours about him, but I'll say that what was remarkable about my dad Katie, is that he was able to speak about the horrors of what he went through without it making him embittered about the world or about humanity. He was the kindest, sweetest person you'd meet, and every person he met it was like it was his mission to make their day better.

He was always building bridges. He was always like.

He was always building bridges. He was always like.

My mom also was a bridge builder. My dad was always trying to connect with people, and he didn't shy away from speaking about what happened with him. But he found a way to remember those small moments of heroism by kind people that saved his life as much as the horrible moments that were probably the dominant part of his experience. But he found a way to remember the humanity that helped them survive.

My mom also was a bridge builder. My dad was always trying to connect with people, and he didn't shy away from speaking about what happened with him. But he found a way to remember those small moments of heroism by kind people that saved his life as much as the horrible moments that were probably the dominant part of his experience. But he found a way to remember the humanity that helped them survive.

It's unbelievable when you think about how relatively recently the Holocaust was, isn't it.

It's unbelievable when you think about how relatively recently the Holocaust was, isn't it.

Well for me, Katie, What's most stunning is that not only was it only like seventy some years ago, but all throughout my upbringing, my first I don't know, forty five fifty years of my life, I couldn't connect the dots of how stuff like that can happen, How could anything like that ever happen, and it's very depressing for me that I now can understand it that only in the last several years have I noticed how power works, how humanity can be so manipulated and dehumanized, and how polarization can lead to such divisions and the rise of authoritarianism and dictatorial forces. And by no means saying that anywhere in the world today is as bad as what happened in World War Two. But you see, you can connect dots to understand how we could land there. I mean, ten years ago, none of us thought that this was remotely an issue, and many of us now can appreciate that we cannot take for granted the freedom and democracy that made America what it is today, and the freedom and democracy brought to the entire world, which now literally across the world, you see these rise of neo fascist extremism across the spectrum of politics. You have dictatorial figures from the left as well as from the right, across all five continents.

Well for me, Katie, What's most stunning is that not only was it only like seventy some years ago, but all throughout my upbringing, my first I don't know, forty five fifty years of my life, I couldn't connect the dots of how stuff like that can happen, How could anything like that ever happen, and it's very depressing for me that I now can understand it that only in the last several years have I noticed how power works, how humanity can be so manipulated and dehumanized, and how polarization can lead to such divisions and the rise of authoritarianism and dictatorial forces. And by no means saying that anywhere in the world today is as bad as what happened in World War Two. But you see, you can connect dots to understand how we could land there. I mean, ten years ago, none of us thought that this was remotely an issue, and many of us now can appreciate that we cannot take for granted the freedom and democracy that made America what it is today, and the freedom and democracy brought to the entire world, which now literally across the world, you see these rise of neo fascist extremism across the spectrum of politics. You have dictatorial figures from the left as well as from the right, across all five continents.

We'll talk about that in the work you're doing on polarization in just a bit, but I wanted to continue with your family's story because your father, at seventeen immigrated to Mexico. He only had a third grade education. He didn't speak English or Spanish, and he went to Mexico and became very successful. Why Mexico and to what do you try attribute his success?

We'll talk about that in the work you're doing on polarization in just a bit, but I wanted to continue with your family's story because your father, at seventeen immigrated to Mexico. He only had a third grade education. He didn't speak English or Spanish, and he went to Mexico and became very successful. Why Mexico and to what do you try attribute his success?

He landed in Mexico because he had nowhere else to go. And ant an uncle of his had landed in Mexico before the war, again because they had nowhere else to go, and Mexico, I guess let them in. And when he arrived, like you said, he the way he educated himself was by getting used encyclopedias and reading them cover to cover. That's how he got his education. And he worked double and triple shifts till he was able to start his small business with his father and then eventually became a very successful businessman. And we eventually came to the United States when I turned fifteen and a half. But what's interesting is when I arrived as fifteen and a half, I had a roof over my head and had, you know, all the opportunities that my dad never had. When he was fifteen and a half, he was liberated by American soldiers. When the American forces were advancing, the Nazis came up with a final plan with their final solution to get rid of the Jews. They didn't have enough bullets to kill all the inmates, so they were going to walk them up mountains ravines and throw them off a cliff. And they were walking my father and my grandfather and thousands of other inmates without you know, coats, and some of them died along the way because they were already you know, my dad was six foot tall and he weighed less than seventy pounds, so they were all almost subhuman by then. And they went and all of a sudden, a snowstorm hit, so the German soldiers kept advancing, and all the inmates thought, this is how we're gonna die in the snowstorm in the middle of this mountains. The Germans had continued marching ahead because they didn't want to get caught by the Americans. So the inmates started heading back and when they saw the tanks, they're like, oh, no, he are the Nazis again. But it was and it was the American soldiers in the form of Japanese Americans. And when my dad first saw them, he didn't understand what to make of it because he had never seen a Japanese person. And it was Japanese Americans whose families were you know, incarcerated or in turned while they were fighting to liberate another continent. And so you can imagine these Jewish inmates not understanding this, and the Japanese Americans being the sweetest and kindest people, feeding them chocolates and taking care of them. And can you imagine witnessing seeing these people that look like they're not human beings, like almost carcasses walking and seeing that suffering and that what had become them.

He landed in Mexico because he had nowhere else to go. And ant an uncle of his had landed in Mexico before the war, again because they had nowhere else to go, and Mexico, I guess let them in. And when he arrived, like you said, he the way he educated himself was by getting used encyclopedias and reading them cover to cover. That's how he got his education. And he worked double and triple shifts till he was able to start his small business with his father and then eventually became a very successful businessman. And we eventually came to the United States when I turned fifteen and a half. But what's interesting is when I arrived as fifteen and a half, I had a roof over my head and had, you know, all the opportunities that my dad never had. When he was fifteen and a half, he was liberated by American soldiers. When the American forces were advancing, the Nazis came up with a final plan with their final solution to get rid of the Jews. They didn't have enough bullets to kill all the inmates, so they were going to walk them up mountains ravines and throw them off a cliff. And they were walking my father and my grandfather and thousands of other inmates without you know, coats, and some of them died along the way because they were already you know, my dad was six foot tall and he weighed less than seventy pounds, so they were all almost subhuman by then. And they went and all of a sudden, a snowstorm hit, so the German soldiers kept advancing, and all the inmates thought, this is how we're gonna die in the snowstorm in the middle of this mountains. The Germans had continued marching ahead because they didn't want to get caught by the Americans. So the inmates started heading back and when they saw the tanks, they're like, oh, no, he are the Nazis again. But it was and it was the American soldiers in the form of Japanese Americans. And when my dad first saw them, he didn't understand what to make of it because he had never seen a Japanese person. And it was Japanese Americans whose families were you know, incarcerated or in turned while they were fighting to liberate another continent. And so you can imagine these Jewish inmates not understanding this, and the Japanese Americans being the sweetest and kindest people, feeding them chocolates and taking care of them. And can you imagine witnessing seeing these people that look like they're not human beings, like almost carcasses walking and seeing that suffering and that what had become them.

That's an amazing story. And just the degree of human suffering and then the degree of compassion is just hard to even comprehend. I think thank you for sharing that story. At fifteen and a half, you and your parents immigrated to the US. You moved to Texas. Was it hard for you to find yourself in the United States? Probably not as difficult as your father finding himself in Mexico. But what was that transition like for you, Daniel?

That's an amazing story. And just the degree of human suffering and then the degree of compassion is just hard to even comprehend. I think thank you for sharing that story. At fifteen and a half, you and your parents immigrated to the US. You moved to Texas. Was it hard for you to find yourself in the United States? Probably not as difficult as your father finding himself in Mexico. But what was that transition like for you, Daniel?

It was a lot of fun, honestly, I mean, it was a great experience because for us, the United States was not just the land of opportunity, but the land of Disneyland and long, long, long long Cereal Isles. So you know, you in Mexico, there were two cereals, and here you show up and there's dozens of cereals and you can choose a different cereal every day, and so it was a lot of for us. It was very special.

It was a lot of fun, honestly, I mean, it was a great experience because for us, the United States was not just the land of opportunity, but the land of Disneyland and long, long, long long Cereal Isles. So you know, you in Mexico, there were two cereals, and here you show up and there's dozens of cereals and you can choose a different cereal every day, and so it was a lot of for us. It was very special.

You ended up going to college? Where did you go as an undergraduate?

You ended up going to college? Where did you go as an undergraduate?

I went to Trinity University.

I went to Trinity University.

I was the first person for my family to go to college, and it was an incredible experience. It's there that I first fell in love with learning, and I became very curious. Up until then, I was a smart kid, but I was just freezing by. I didn't really read or apply myself, and that's when I became an official nerd.

I was the first person for my family to go to college, and it was an incredible experience. It's there that I first fell in love with learning, and I became very curious. Up until then, I was a smart kid, but I was just freezing by. I didn't really read or apply myself, and that's when I became an official nerd.

Well, you must have done pretty well because you got into Stanford Law School and you originally wanted to be a career diplomat, but you changed your mind at Stanford or shortly thereafter.

Well, you must have done pretty well because you got into Stanford Law School and you originally wanted to be a career diplomat, but you changed your mind at Stanford or shortly thereafter.

Why so I went to Stanford Law because I thought I was going to be a diplomat to try to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I was very passionate since I was a kid about building bridges, particularly to bring peace to Israel and all of its neighbors. So I had the idea for using business and commerce to encourage neighbors to become friends and to work together.

Why so I went to Stanford Law because I thought I was going to be a diplomat to try to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I was very passionate since I was a kid about building bridges, particularly to bring peace to Israel and all of its neighbors. So I had the idea for using business and commerce to encourage neighbors to become friends and to work together.

How did this notion of food and producing food as a means to create peace? Where did that come from?

How did this notion of food and producing food as a means to create peace? Where did that come from?

I studied abroad for six months in Israel and met Palestinian friends and Israeli friends, and I started becoming very curious about the power of economics to advance conflict resolution.

I studied abroad for six months in Israel and met Palestinian friends and Israeli friends, and I started becoming very curious about the power of economics to advance conflict resolution.

Then in the research that I'm doing, the agricultural.

Then in the research that I'm doing, the agricultural.

Sector is one of those few sectors whereas symmetrical relationships between Arabs and Israelis are possible.

Sector is one of those few sectors whereas symmetrical relationships between Arabs and Israelis are possible.

And that's how peace Work started. It was Israel and its neighbors.

And that's how peace Work started. It was Israel and its neighbors.

Trying to show both sides how they could make money together rather than fight.

Trying to show both sides how they could make money together rather than fight.

You got the idea for your company kind when you were building peace Works and you barely had time to eat. You thought, I need something to sustain me, So tell us that story.

You got the idea for your company kind when you were building peace Works and you barely had time to eat. You thought, I need something to sustain me, So tell us that story.

Yeah, so I've been running piece Works at that point ten years. I couldn't find a snack that I could feel good about eating. It was all either very indulgent or it tasted like cardboard. And long story short, I came up with idea for using nutrient andse ingredients like almonds and tree nuts to create a versatile snack that was kind to your body, kind to your taste, butts, and kind to the world.

Yeah, so I've been running piece Works at that point ten years. I couldn't find a snack that I could feel good about eating. It was all either very indulgent or it tasted like cardboard. And long story short, I came up with idea for using nutrient andse ingredients like almonds and tree nuts to create a versatile snack that was kind to your body, kind to your taste, butts, and kind to the world.

And that's how Kind started.

And that's how Kind started.

But Kind it wasn't just the name of the company. It was really emblematic of the values of the company. Yeah, tell me sort of what your goals were in terms of building your business.

But Kind it wasn't just the name of the company. It was really emblematic of the values of the company. Yeah, tell me sort of what your goals were in terms of building your business.

So I was so blessed that I discovered the piece Works model of bringing people together while making money. When I had the idea for Kind, I wanted to also find a way to not just make money.

So I was so blessed that I discovered the piece Works model of bringing people together while making money. When I had the idea for Kind, I wanted to also find a way to not just make money.

But to do something meaningful.

But to do something meaningful.

The year that I and my team and I conceived Kind is the year my dad passed away, and we were looking for an adjective that would fit our three pillars for the product that was kind to your body, kind to taste books, and kind to the world.

The year that I and my team and I conceived Kind is the year my dad passed away, and we were looking for an adjective that would fit our three pillars for the product that was kind to your body, kind to taste books, and kind to the world.

But the catalyst was that.

But the catalyst was that.

That was who my father was, right, the kind person that always connected people. And so I think that's what during that year of mourning my dad, it was a way to honor him and a way to remember all the magic that he brought to my life and other people's lives by trying to name the brand in his.

That was who my father was, right, the kind person that always connected people. And so I think that's what during that year of mourning my dad, it was a way to honor him and a way to remember all the magic that he brought to my life and other people's lives by trying to name the brand in his.

Honor movie right back and we're back. When Kind started taking off, were you like, holy shit, I can't believe it, because I mean, were you just dumbfounded?

Honor movie right back and we're back. When Kind started taking off, were you like, holy shit, I can't believe it, because I mean, were you just dumbfounded?

My experience as a business person, Katie is that there's an enormous amount of surprises, enormous amount of stuff that you learn every single day, and entrepreneurs that or founders that position themselves as saviors of humanity are full of shit because there's an enormous amount of like being lucky to be at the right time. It doesn't mean you don't need to have an extraormedly hard work ethic. You do otherwise you're not gonna win and be extremely a critical thinker and develop curiosity and compassionate encourage in your daily life and really really work harder than others and be more creative and out, you know, be more disruptive. But in addition to that, there needs to be a enormous amount of luck and being there at the right time. And once we launch Kind, You're right, it just took off and it benefited from all the lessons of all the mistakes that I had done in my first ten years at Piece Works.

My experience as a business person, Katie is that there's an enormous amount of surprises, enormous amount of stuff that you learn every single day, and entrepreneurs that or founders that position themselves as saviors of humanity are full of shit because there's an enormous amount of like being lucky to be at the right time. It doesn't mean you don't need to have an extraormedly hard work ethic. You do otherwise you're not gonna win and be extremely a critical thinker and develop curiosity and compassionate encourage in your daily life and really really work harder than others and be more creative and out, you know, be more disruptive. But in addition to that, there needs to be a enormous amount of luck and being there at the right time. And once we launch Kind, You're right, it just took off and it benefited from all the lessons of all the mistakes that I had done in my first ten years at Piece Works.

It's a huge, I guess billion dollar business now, Daniel, and you sold it right.

It's a huge, I guess billion dollar business now, Daniel, and you sold it right.

I didn't sell I saw the controlling stake in the company. I still have a meaningful stake in the company, and I'm still deeply involved and I love working with my team.

I didn't sell I saw the controlling stake in the company. I still have a meaningful stake in the company, and I'm still deeply involved and I love working with my team.

Let's talk about your philanthropy now, because I know you have begun to focus your efforts on trying to diminish the divisions we've seen grow and calcify in our country. Why polarization, Why was this area of interest to you?

Let's talk about your philanthropy now, because I know you have begun to focus your efforts on trying to diminish the divisions we've seen grow and calcify in our country. Why polarization, Why was this area of interest to you?

Well, first of all, Katie, the way my mind works is that I just don't sleep well very very often. And I think, as a son of aholl survivor, I have this extra awareness that I cannot just take for granted that I have such a great life, and I'm so blessed to have immigrated to America. And I'm not saying the United States is perfect, but it's probably the best experiment of any other country out there.

Well, first of all, Katie, the way my mind works is that I just don't sleep well very very often. And I think, as a son of aholl survivor, I have this extra awareness that I cannot just take for granted that I have such a great life, and I'm so blessed to have immigrated to America. And I'm not saying the United States is perfect, but it's probably the best experiment of any other country out there.

But we need to preserve it.

But we need to preserve it.

And I live in constant worry that my children are going to inherit a much tougher sort of circumstances than when my generation inherited. I mean, I have five different areas of focus in my philanthropy right now, but the overarching concern that connects to all of those is this growing trend of extremism and dehumanization and tribalism that informs the.

And I live in constant worry that my children are going to inherit a much tougher sort of circumstances than when my generation inherited. I mean, I have five different areas of focus in my philanthropy right now, but the overarching concern that connects to all of those is this growing trend of extremism and dehumanization and tribalism that informs the.

Global conflict across the world.

Global conflict across the world.

Is the rise of authoritarianism that informs anti Semitism, that informs the conflict that's happening in Israel and the Middle East, that informs what's happening here in the United States.

Is the rise of authoritarianism that informs anti Semitism, that informs the conflict that's happening in Israel and the Middle East, that informs what's happening here in the United States.

And you know, social media makes all of us.

And you know, social media makes all of us.

Think we have the answers because we are living in echo chambers, makes us all be a little bit more rigid and a little bit less introspective and a little bit less willing to be curious about understanding the other side. Same with cable news are just fitting us what we want to hear rather than what we need to hear. And same with politicians who increasingly are just wielding disproportionate power when they take extreme mistakes. And we need to change that because if we don't change that, we cannot assume that our lives, our communities, and our country and our world are going to be what we want for our children. We need to recognize eighty seven percent KD of the United States are very, very alarmed at the direction of our country towards so much polarization, so much the humanization, so much hatred, and feel that it has to change. So the overwhelming majority of people feel that, but we're not doing something about it because we all feel powerless. We don't understand what to do, and so Starts with Us is an initiative. I know Peter Coleman is going to join us soon, and he's one of our two hundred and thirteen senior movement partners that have built this movement to try to give people a tool kit of small things they can do in their daily lives to seize back the agenda away from extremism and towards a world that is closer to the America that we inherited that they want where we're approaching.

Think we have the answers because we are living in echo chambers, makes us all be a little bit more rigid and a little bit less introspective and a little bit less willing to be curious about understanding the other side. Same with cable news are just fitting us what we want to hear rather than what we need to hear. And same with politicians who increasingly are just wielding disproportionate power when they take extreme mistakes. And we need to change that because if we don't change that, we cannot assume that our lives, our communities, and our country and our world are going to be what we want for our children. We need to recognize eighty seven percent KD of the United States are very, very alarmed at the direction of our country towards so much polarization, so much the humanization, so much hatred, and feel that it has to change. So the overwhelming majority of people feel that, but we're not doing something about it because we all feel powerless. We don't understand what to do, and so Starts with Us is an initiative. I know Peter Coleman is going to join us soon, and he's one of our two hundred and thirteen senior movement partners that have built this movement to try to give people a tool kit of small things they can do in their daily lives to seize back the agenda away from extremism and towards a world that is closer to the America that we inherited that they want where we're approaching.

Okay, let's bring in Peter Coleman, a professor at Columbia University and also the author of The Way Out, How to Overcome Toxic Polarization. Peter, thanks for joining us because I know you're bringing your experience and knowledge to Starts with Us in its effort to bridge the bitter divisions we're seen in this country. And needless to say, I think many people are very upset about the state of the country and Peter, why did you want to get involved in this effort?

Okay, let's bring in Peter Coleman, a professor at Columbia University and also the author of The Way Out, How to Overcome Toxic Polarization. Peter, thanks for joining us because I know you're bringing your experience and knowledge to Starts with Us in its effort to bridge the bitter divisions we're seen in this country. And needless to say, I think many people are very upset about the state of the country and Peter, why did you want to get involved in this effort?

I have worked and studied in this area for a long time. One of the things I study is long term intractable conflicts. Conflicts are going on for decades, been getting progressively worse, escalating, you know, for decades.

I have worked and studied in this area for a long time. One of the things I study is long term intractable conflicts. Conflicts are going on for decades, been getting progressively worse, escalating, you know, for decades.

Now.

Now.

I have a lab here called the Difficult Conversations Lab, where we bring people in who are opposed on some moral issue. We study the conditions under which those conversations go well and go poorly. So I've been doing that for a long time. And because of that, when Donald Trump was elected, when political rhetoric was really heating up in the US, so I wrote a book called The Way Out, which was my attempt to say, okay, there is science on this, this is what the science is, you know, pay attention please. And then I started conversations with Daniel's team and met Daniels soon thereafter. And they're innovative group of radical product of tours I think, who are trying to do disruptive things, and so I love that. And what I've found is that they were listening to the science when we would have a conversation and they say, we think we want to do this, and I'd say, okay, but understand these may be the consequences, and they'd say, okay, that's good to know. So maybe we need to reshape it.

I have a lab here called the Difficult Conversations Lab, where we bring people in who are opposed on some moral issue. We study the conditions under which those conversations go well and go poorly. So I've been doing that for a long time. And because of that, when Donald Trump was elected, when political rhetoric was really heating up in the US, so I wrote a book called The Way Out, which was my attempt to say, okay, there is science on this, this is what the science is, you know, pay attention please. And then I started conversations with Daniel's team and met Daniels soon thereafter. And they're innovative group of radical product of tours I think, who are trying to do disruptive things, and so I love that. And what I've found is that they were listening to the science when we would have a conversation and they say, we think we want to do this, and I'd say, okay, but understand these may be the consequences, and they'd say, okay, that's good to know. So maybe we need to reshape it.

Right, But we have obviously become so tribal in all our institutions. For example, you mentioned the media. They seem to have a business model that's predicated on pulling us apart instead of bringing us together. Well, I would say it's more extreme on one side, but we can discuss that. So how in the world are you going to change it now?

Right, But we have obviously become so tribal in all our institutions. For example, you mentioned the media. They seem to have a business model that's predicated on pulling us apart instead of bringing us together. Well, I would say it's more extreme on one side, but we can discuss that. So how in the world are you going to change it now?

I completely agree that we have our hands full here in terms of the challenge, because it's been a challenge that I've been following for decades and it's only gotten worse now with the power of social media, and they're incentivized to scandal.

I completely agree that we have our hands full here in terms of the challenge, because it's been a challenge that I've been following for decades and it's only gotten worse now with the power of social media, and they're incentivized to scandal.

So it's a very serious challenge.

So it's a very serious challenge.

A lot of what starts with us is starting by injecting into our discourse the three c's curiosity, compassion, and courage, and they concrete things you can do in your daily life to live by those three days, which is not just going to be about saving America from dictatorship, is also going to make you a better parent, a more effective business leader, a more effective leader. And the ultimate thing I would answer is not only the power of the people because we're the overwhelming majority, it's that if we don't do it, nobody else will do it for us. So it's imperative that we stand up and do it.

A lot of what starts with us is starting by injecting into our discourse the three c's curiosity, compassion, and courage, and they concrete things you can do in your daily life to live by those three days, which is not just going to be about saving America from dictatorship, is also going to make you a better parent, a more effective business leader, a more effective leader. And the ultimate thing I would answer is not only the power of the people because we're the overwhelming majority, it's that if we don't do it, nobody else will do it for us. So it's imperative that we stand up and do it.

We'll be right back. We're back. But Daniel Lubetski and Peter Coleman, Peter, where does science come into all of this?

We'll be right back. We're back. But Daniel Lubetski and Peter Coleman, Peter, where does science come into all of this?

Everywhere? The good news about the crisis that we're in is that it has created, you know, these kinds of crises, these kinds of times, create their own conditions for their own undoing. So the fact that something like eighty to ninety percent of Americans are exhausted, fed up, and really looking for a different way forward, that's good news, right. That means there is a majority that is ripe for something else. This instability that we think we're just coming out of, COVID, awareness of racial injustice, economic downturns, the Great Resignation, There's been so much tumult in our lives. So the good news is we're exhausted, we're miserable, we fail destabilized, And so what we need to provide this middle majority is what the alternative looks like what do you do. Where I find optimism is that over the past couple of years, I've had the opportunity to work with Starts with Us and other groups that are working in all different sectors. That's happening in politics, it's happening in business, it's happening in journalism, so in major sectors. And then there are eight thousand community based organizations across the country that are doing this at the community level. So there's a social movement that's happening. We don't think of it yet. We're not aware of ourselves as a social movement yet. I think that's part of what Starts with Us as trying to do is say, hey, you know, we're there's many good people doing good things bringing us together, which show us how to have respectful conversations. We're not trained in this. Americans are trained in debate. So a political difference comes up and we move into debate and it escalates, especially because we oftentimes don't know what we're talking about.

Everywhere? The good news about the crisis that we're in is that it has created, you know, these kinds of crises, these kinds of times, create their own conditions for their own undoing. So the fact that something like eighty to ninety percent of Americans are exhausted, fed up, and really looking for a different way forward, that's good news, right. That means there is a majority that is ripe for something else. This instability that we think we're just coming out of, COVID, awareness of racial injustice, economic downturns, the Great Resignation, There's been so much tumult in our lives. So the good news is we're exhausted, we're miserable, we fail destabilized, And so what we need to provide this middle majority is what the alternative looks like what do you do. Where I find optimism is that over the past couple of years, I've had the opportunity to work with Starts with Us and other groups that are working in all different sectors. That's happening in politics, it's happening in business, it's happening in journalism, so in major sectors. And then there are eight thousand community based organizations across the country that are doing this at the community level. So there's a social movement that's happening. We don't think of it yet. We're not aware of ourselves as a social movement yet. I think that's part of what Starts with Us as trying to do is say, hey, you know, we're there's many good people doing good things bringing us together, which show us how to have respectful conversations. We're not trained in this. Americans are trained in debate. So a political difference comes up and we move into debate and it escalates, especially because we oftentimes don't know what we're talking about.

And we also just want to win at all costs. We don't want to listen. We want to prove our point.

And we also just want to win at all costs. We don't want to listen. We want to prove our point.

And that's what Yeah, that's basically the design of debate is the game to win, right, and that's one way to communicate. But we don't really understand how to listen effectively, how to really listen to learn about ourselves and others and the issues.

And that's what Yeah, that's basically the design of debate is the game to win, right, and that's one way to communicate. But we don't really understand how to listen effectively, how to really listen to learn about ourselves and others and the issues.

Right.

Right.

So there's a lot of work to do to help Americans see what that looks like.

So there's a lot of work to do to help Americans see what that looks like.

And also, you know, the political parties are not necessarily our best friends, because they're a gen that is to win over the other political party rather than to solve problems. You were saying Katie earlier that in your opinion, one side probably is more intolerant than the other. And I suspect that you were thinking that the people that support Trump are much more rigid and inflexible than the people that are post Trump.

And also, you know, the political parties are not necessarily our best friends, because they're a gen that is to win over the other political party rather than to solve problems. You were saying Katie earlier that in your opinion, one side probably is more intolerant than the other. And I suspect that you were thinking that the people that support Trump are much more rigid and inflexible than the people that are post Trump.

I think I was thinking Fox News versus say MSNBC, although I do think they both represent two sides, But I feel like Fox News is really the devil. I have to say, Daniel, I think they're awful. I think they're craven. I think they care about ratings and ratings alone, and they'll say anything to get those ratings, even if they don't believe it's true. And that's been shown in the dominion lawsuits. So they discussed me.

I think I was thinking Fox News versus say MSNBC, although I do think they both represent two sides, But I feel like Fox News is really the devil. I have to say, Daniel, I think they're awful. I think they're craven. I think they care about ratings and ratings alone, and they'll say anything to get those ratings, even if they don't believe it's true. And that's been shown in the dominion lawsuits. So they discussed me.

Go on, let me tell you I have equal discuss towards Fox News.

Go on, let me tell you I have equal discuss towards Fox News.

But the problem does exist across the spectrum.

But the problem does exist across the spectrum.

We literally just came out with a study were in parniship with the George Mason University's Center for Media and Public Affairs identified the seven most bi parties and members of Congress and the seven most hyper parties.

We literally just came out with a study were in parniship with the George Mason University's Center for Media and Public Affairs identified the seven most bi parties and members of Congress and the seven most hyper parties.

And members of Congress.

And members of Congress.

Marjorie Taylor Green got more media attention than anybody else. She got more media attention than all the bipartisans together. You would think that the greatest culprits are the extremist media. You know, who was the new source out of the sixteen leading stations that gave her the most focused on attention, The New York Times. If I speak to my friends at the New York Times, they'll say, well, how can we not govern our stuff? So what ends up happening is we're just news media with very few exceptions. They're throwing the red meat to their audiences and so right, of course, and it's to your point, it's the incentives for the system.

Marjorie Taylor Green got more media attention than anybody else. She got more media attention than all the bipartisans together. You would think that the greatest culprits are the extremist media. You know, who was the new source out of the sixteen leading stations that gave her the most focused on attention, The New York Times. If I speak to my friends at the New York Times, they'll say, well, how can we not govern our stuff? So what ends up happening is we're just news media with very few exceptions. They're throwing the red meat to their audiences and so right, of course, and it's to your point, it's the incentives for the system.

It's reinforcing preconceived biases.

It's reinforcing preconceived biases.

What we need to ask from members of the media is not that they not cover the crazies because it's impossible for them to not get ratings, but that they just fine tune those ratios so then they work a little bit to bring in the constructive people that are actually addressing our problems and trying to advance solutions.

What we need to ask from members of the media is not that they not cover the crazies because it's impossible for them to not get ratings, but that they just fine tune those ratios so then they work a little bit to bring in the constructive people that are actually addressing our problems and trying to advance solutions.

And people who are working on solutions. The worry, I think is that if it's not incendiary, if it doesn't create a visceral emotional response, people are going to change the channel or not buy the newspaper. This is how we've all been condition.

And people who are working on solutions. The worry, I think is that if it's not incendiary, if it doesn't create a visceral emotional response, people are going to change the channel or not buy the newspaper. This is how we've all been condition.

Exactly what starts with us is trying to learn from I mean, is those little micro habits that can help overcome that. It starts with a little action every day. Peter, maybe you can talk a little bit about that.

Exactly what starts with us is trying to learn from I mean, is those little micro habits that can help overcome that. It starts with a little action every day. Peter, maybe you can talk a little bit about that.

So a small group of us started to say, okay, so if we were to actually live these actions every day for a little bit of time every day, what would we do? What would that look like. We've basically generated one hundred different microactions, microactivities, nudges, exercises that you can do every day. There's an option that's five minutes and then they can get more. And we piloted it this summer with a small group of people, and I participated myself and it was helpful. It really helped us sort of start to have different kinds of conversations. The first week you kind of focus on yourself and your own inclinations and attitudes. The second week we ask you to start to think about the people you are comfortable talking politics with. Are you being honest? Are you able to talk about your own ambivalence, and how do you start to change that conversation. Maybe the third week is about trying to find somebody that you're you know, politically alienated from. Right now, there was a man in my building who I was friendly.

So a small group of us started to say, okay, so if we were to actually live these actions every day for a little bit of time every day, what would we do? What would that look like. We've basically generated one hundred different microactions, microactivities, nudges, exercises that you can do every day. There's an option that's five minutes and then they can get more. And we piloted it this summer with a small group of people, and I participated myself and it was helpful. It really helped us sort of start to have different kinds of conversations. The first week you kind of focus on yourself and your own inclinations and attitudes. The second week we ask you to start to think about the people you are comfortable talking politics with. Are you being honest? Are you able to talk about your own ambivalence, and how do you start to change that conversation. Maybe the third week is about trying to find somebody that you're you know, politically alienated from. Right now, there was a man in my building who I was friendly.

With for years, and I read that piece and Time magazine. You took a walk with him, took a while, and yeah, I mean, he could not have been more different than you in almost every conceivable way. And I have to say, I don't think i'd want to have dinner with your neighbor, but go on.

With for years, and I read that piece and Time magazine. You took a walk with him, took a while, and yeah, I mean, he could not have been more different than you in almost every conceivable way. And I have to say, I don't think i'd want to have dinner with your neighbor, but go on.

But I have to say again, you know what, it reminded me of what the context of his attitudes were, his opinions, his part of it was his religion, and part of his upbringing his grandfather. So you know, again being reminded of the humanity of this man helped me hear him and frankly helped him kind of talk himself away from more extreme opinions, you know. Right, So that's one of the activities in this challenge that we offer. So right now starts with us built this website that you can go to and register for this thing every day. You know, there are four or five things you can choose from. It's like a mindfulness app Right, you can do small things every day.

But I have to say again, you know what, it reminded me of what the context of his attitudes were, his opinions, his part of it was his religion, and part of his upbringing his grandfather. So you know, again being reminded of the humanity of this man helped me hear him and frankly helped him kind of talk himself away from more extreme opinions, you know. Right, So that's one of the activities in this challenge that we offer. So right now starts with us built this website that you can go to and register for this thing every day. You know, there are four or five things you can choose from. It's like a mindfulness app Right, you can do small things every day.

I'm just going to read them and you can give us a quick instruction on each one. Number one, stop to reset. What does that mean?

I'm just going to read them and you can give us a quick instruction on each one. Number one, stop to reset. What does that mean?

Well, that means that oftentimes we launch into things automatically, we say things, and we start, we get ourselves in trouble and then we can't.

Well, that means that oftentimes we launch into things automatically, we say things, and we start, we get ourselves in trouble and then we can't.

Walk it back.

Walk it back.

So it is about when you feel the possibility that things could go awry, go into it with some intentionality and reflection before you start.

So it is about when you feel the possibility that things could go awry, go into it with some intentionality and reflection before you start.

Number two spot positive deviance.

Number two spot positive deviance.

Yeah, so that's I mean. The great news is that there are, as I said earlier, thousands of people doing this work. I Mean, one of the things I'd ask you to think about is like, is there somebody in your life who you grew up with or you know, well, who is really good at dealing with hard conflicts, sitting with them, being respectful but firm, right, and those are the positive deviants in our life. Right. It's not how to fix problems, it's how do we see people that already manage those effectively, and how can we be more like them?

Yeah, so that's I mean. The great news is that there are, as I said earlier, thousands of people doing this work. I Mean, one of the things I'd ask you to think about is like, is there somebody in your life who you grew up with or you know, well, who is really good at dealing with hard conflicts, sitting with them, being respectful but firm, right, and those are the positive deviants in our life. Right. It's not how to fix problems, it's how do we see people that already manage those effectively, and how can we be more like them?

Complicate to simplify.

Complicate to simplify.

Yeah, so again these it's very easy for us to oversimplify them and us and the issues. Right. It's like immigration, which is this immensely complex set of issues, becomes about a wall, and that's you know, ridiculous.

Yeah, so again these it's very easy for us to oversimplify them and us and the issues. Right. It's like immigration, which is this immensely complex set of issues, becomes about a wall, and that's you know, ridiculous.

Right.

Right.

So one of the things I do is, about two years ago, I identified five people who are on the other side of the political divide from me, who have you know, opinions and ideas that are opposed me, but who I think are decent, well intentioned, and often well informed. And when the news breaks, instead of just going to the you know, my comfort news, I force myself to find them because oftentimes I may disagree, but they're they're making a point and that's complicating my understanding of this world, which is so hard to do because of the biases in the news that you were.

So one of the things I do is, about two years ago, I identified five people who are on the other side of the political divide from me, who have you know, opinions and ideas that are opposed me, but who I think are decent, well intentioned, and often well informed. And when the news breaks, instead of just going to the you know, my comfort news, I force myself to find them because oftentimes I may disagree, but they're they're making a point and that's complicating my understanding of this world, which is so hard to do because of the biases in the news that you were.

Describing, Daniel, you were going to add something.

Describing, Daniel, you were going to add something.

I just want to say that what Peter does is so commendable, and I try my own version of that, and I don't know if you do, Katie, but it is so extraordinarily exhausting, and yet it's also externally accelerating. Ultimately, the more high functioning societies, the more high functioning families, the more high functioning companies.

I just want to say that what Peter does is so commendable, and I try my own version of that, and I don't know if you do, Katie, but it is so extraordinarily exhausting, and yet it's also externally accelerating. Ultimately, the more high functioning societies, the more high functioning families, the more high functioning companies.

Will be the ones that eschew that approach.

Will be the ones that eschew that approach.

I learn to be hardy debaters that respect to one another, learn to know how to be critical thinkers and critical listeners. Those are skills that have made as the best country that we are, the best companies that get created. We're going to lose that if we lose the ability to have debates with one another in a respectful fashion.

I learn to be hardy debaters that respect to one another, learn to know how to be critical thinkers and critical listeners. Those are skills that have made as the best country that we are, the best companies that get created. We're going to lose that if we lose the ability to have debates with one another in a respectful fashion.

I try to do that. I mean, I sometimes watch Fox News. Usually I'm disgusted by how smug and smarmy they are, but once in a while, I think, you know, that gives me something to think about.

I try to do that. I mean, I sometimes watch Fox News. Usually I'm disgusted by how smug and smarmy they are, but once in a while, I think, you know, that gives me something to think about.

I mean, listening to too much again. What I'm not recommending when I say reach out to the other side is the crazy nonsense. I think the Hannay and Tucker stuff is just, you know, it is problem and it's it is toxic. But there definitely are smart conservatives and smart Trump conservatives that still are reasonable, still are in there trying to make their case that I can listen to without the craziness.

I mean, listening to too much again. What I'm not recommending when I say reach out to the other side is the crazy nonsense. I think the Hannay and Tucker stuff is just, you know, it is problem and it's it is toxic. But there definitely are smart conservatives and smart Trump conservatives that still are reasonable, still are in there trying to make their case that I can listen to without the craziness.

But also we.

But also we.

Need to evaluate our own side because the weakness in the work I do is when I tell you eighty seven percent of people are fed up with polarization and extremism, everybody nods. Everybody feels it, but most people think the problems on the other side. So I have a dear friend that I think is one of the smartest people I know from the right, and he nods when I say this, but he thinks all the problem is in the wokism on the left. And they have very differ friends that are progressive and they not, but they think the problems on the right. The truth is all of us suffer from this, every single one is because we're all being part of the you know, institutions and mechanisms that are manipulating us for profit, for power, and so we need to break those shackles and use the skill sets to think critically.

Need to evaluate our own side because the weakness in the work I do is when I tell you eighty seven percent of people are fed up with polarization and extremism, everybody nods. Everybody feels it, but most people think the problems on the other side. So I have a dear friend that I think is one of the smartest people I know from the right, and he nods when I say this, but he thinks all the problem is in the wokism on the left. And they have very differ friends that are progressive and they not, but they think the problems on the right. The truth is all of us suffer from this, every single one is because we're all being part of the you know, institutions and mechanisms that are manipulating us for profit, for power, and so we need to break those shackles and use the skill sets to think critically.

Yes, well, I think this is such an interesting conversation. Daniel and Peter, thank you both so much for talking with us. This is a fascinating and conversation and such an important issue because democracies aren't guaranteed, are they? And we want to preserve ours as long as we possibly can, and we're not going to be able to do that unless we come together and solve some of these intractable problems.

Yes, well, I think this is such an interesting conversation. Daniel and Peter, thank you both so much for talking with us. This is a fascinating and conversation and such an important issue because democracies aren't guaranteed, are they? And we want to preserve ours as long as we possibly can, and we're not going to be able to do that unless we come together and solve some of these intractable problems.

Oll Katie, I think from the bottom of my heart, not only I'm a big, big fan of yours always, but your style of work is exactly what we need more of, where there's self reflection and where there's really real efforts to tell the whole story. So I think we need more of that, and I'm very, very grateful for you. I encourage people to learn more at starts with Us, which it starts with dot us.

Oll Katie, I think from the bottom of my heart, not only I'm a big, big fan of yours always, but your style of work is exactly what we need more of, where there's self reflection and where there's really real efforts to tell the whole story. So I think we need more of that, and I'm very, very grateful for you. I encourage people to learn more at starts with Us, which it starts with dot us.

Starts with dot us. Okay, and Peter, we'll make sure that people buy your book as well.

Starts with dot us. Okay, and Peter, we'll make sure that people buy your book as well.

Thank you, Katie, and I want to second everything.

Thank you, Katie, and I want to second everything.

Daniel sim thanks guys, appreciate it.

Daniel sim thanks guys, appreciate it.

Katie, Peter, thank you so much.

Katie, Peter, thank you so much.

I thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me or want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two five five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed the music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,

I thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me or want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two five five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed the music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,