Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram. He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top, A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood, coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter, including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation, but it might be triggering for some people. In fact, did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans? That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes, and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia, and in the years since, I've tried to better understand these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan would be the perfect person to join me. I also wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it, I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual, evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP, and I think what they're doing is critically important. So we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about yourself and how you got interested in helping people who have a whole panoply of eating disorders.

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. I love Jonathan Vaness. You probably know him from the Netflix hit Queer Eye, and maybe you've sought out his hair care advice or seeing him doing backflips on Instagram. He is hilarious, effusive, and really smart, but it hasn't always been easy. In his twenty nineteen memoir Over the Top, A Raw Journey to Self Love, Jonathan detailed his tumultuous childhood, coming to understand his gender identity and his experience with body dysmorphia and disordered eating. I want to let our listeners know that this episode contains some sensitive subject matter, including eating disorders and sexual assault. It's an important conversation, but it might be triggering for some people. In fact, did you know eating disorders affect almost thirty million Americans? That's right, thirty million people of all ages, gender shapes, and sexual orientations. In my twenties, I actually had bulimia, and in the years since, I've tried to better understand these issues. For Pride Month, I wanted to focus the conversation on the LGBTQIA plus community, and I thought Jonathan would be the perfect person to join me. I also wanted to bring in an expert, because let's face it, I'm not one, so I invited clinical psychologist doctor Jesse Menzel to be a part of this. Jesse is the vice president of program development for EQUIP, which provides virtual, evidence based eating disorder treatment, often to people without access to care. I'm an advisor to and investor in EQUIP, and I think what they're doing is critically important. So we began the conversation with Jesse and how she became interested in this kind of work. Jesse, tell me about yourself and how you got interested in helping people who have a whole panoply of eating disorders.

Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I want to just take a quick second because I don't know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are here to bring treatment to people in their homes and their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea being that, you know, the key I think to solving access is to bring treatment to people, and that when we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system, that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me, I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to the field of eating disorders because of a really long standing interest in body image and particularly the things that influence our body image from a cultural socio and a cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular. I grew up in a household where I had a communications professor for a father, and we would talk about the media all the time and how it shapes these ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because I grew up with three sisters and so that was a big conversation in our household, and that's really what led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense privilege of being able to work with and be trained by some of the foremost experts in the field. And it was during my time when I was on faculty at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the first time, you know, being able to work with individuals of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this is how we can actually help people. And that's what eventually led me to make the move over to join doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia, we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie, thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime, and so it meant a lot to me to be involved in a venture and in a mission that could really help take these treatments that work out of academia and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could access this treatment.

Thanks Katie, and thanks so much for having me. I want to just take a quick second because I don't know if everybody knows what EQUIP is, but we are a totally virtual, remote eating disorder program. So we are here to bring treatment to people in their homes and their lives, with their shows and families, and the idea being that, you know, the key I think to solving access is to bring treatment to people, and that when we can deliver treatment in someone's home with their support system, that's what's going to be key. To helping them reach lasting recovery. So for a bit of context about me, I'm a clinical psychologist and I really was drawn to the field of eating disorders because of a really long standing interest in body image and particularly the things that influence our body image from a cultural socio and a cultural lens. The media is a interest of mine. In particular. I grew up in a household where I had a communications professor for a father, and we would talk about the media all the time and how it shapes these ideals both appearance and culturally for women, in particular because I grew up with three sisters and so that was a big conversation in our household, and that's really what led me into eating disorders. So I've had the immense privilege of being able to work with and be trained by some of the foremost experts in the field. And it was during my time when I was on faculty at UC San Diego that I met EQUIPS co founders at Aaron Parks and Christina Saffron, and I really got to experience what effective eating disorder treatment was for the first time, you know, being able to work with individuals of all ages. I worked in our outpatient clinics and our inpatient clinics and to finally see that, hey, this is how we can actually help people. And that's what eventually led me to make the move over to join doctor Parks that equip because I was like, here in academia, we can only help so many people, and as you said, Katie, thirty million people will struggle with eating disorders in their lifetime, and so it meant a lot to me to be involved in a venture and in a mission that could really help take these treatments that work out of academia and bring it to people everywhere so that everyone could access this treatment.

And I think Javin is a real example of the variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because I do think for so long we had this image in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community.

And I think Javin is a real example of the variety of individuals who are impacted by eating disorders, because I do think for so long we had this image in our minds about young, sort of white, privileged girls suffering from eating disorders, and I think documentaries and movies about this issue have perpetuated that stereotype. And before Jonathan talks about their situation growing and their sort of distorted relationship with food, can you tell us about how eating disorders are particularly prevalent in the LGBTQIA plus community.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie, because you're right. I think we have this idea that there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in her twenties, and that is so far from the truth. And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk for developing eating disorders in large part in general because of the increased stress that this community faces and a lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double appearance ideal that are often held within this community that places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way. And I think we can go into a lot more about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely, I think a really important group of individuals to talk about when we talk about awareness of who develops an eating disorder and who's at risk.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm so glad you brought this up, Katie, because you're right. I think we have this idea that there's a certain look to an eating disorder, right, and it's that thin, able bodied, cisgender, heterosexual, white woman in her twenties, and that is so far from the truth. And in fact, it's usually these communities that we think of as not getting eating disorders who are actually the most at risk. And the LGBTQ plus community in particular is I think it's like fourfold higher or increased risk for developing eating disorders in large part in general because of the increased stress that this community faces and a lot of the almost like double appearance standards are double appearance ideal that are often held within this community that places those increased pressures on them to look a certain way. And I think we can go into a lot more about what places this community at risk, but this is definitely, I think a really important group of individuals to talk about when we talk about awareness of who develops an eating disorder and who's at risk.

JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right, and I'm.

JVN. I'm going to work hard to get these pronouns right, and I'm.

And all of them you can do.

And all of them you can do.

Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I use all of them. So you're you're in the clear.

Heishi, They there's no slipping with me, honey, because I use all of them. So you're you're in the clear.

So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does this resonate with you in terms of why folks like you might be at greater risk?

So, Jonathan, when you hear Jesse talk about this, does this resonate with you in terms of why folks like you might be at greater risk?

It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think when I first realized that I was having an issue early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book that was written in the seventies, but it talked about the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh, you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women. I think that even this narrative that queer people are four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like, queer people are more at risk. I think when you look at straight men, not to like play a violin for straight white men, but if you look at straight men and you look at the rise of you know, performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids, who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood leading men who have to get into really intense shape for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like oh god, x y Z. When a man when you have to book up and all of a sudden, you've been a certain way for your whole career, and I can think of a few right off the top of my head. And then all of a sudden, you book a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular, and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids are capped, you're doing stuff.

It's interesting, actually, I was thinking about how you were talking about how documentaries in like the eighties and nineties perpetuated this idea that it was like younger white heterosexual women who suffer most from eating disorders. And I think when I first realized that I was having an issue early in my teens, I remember finding literature in the library that spoke to the amount of I mean, they didn't call it sis hetman because this was a book that was written in the seventies, but it talked about the underdiagnosis of eating disorders and men. And I think that kind of the way that we're speaking to, like, oh, you know a lot of those documentaries in coverage was perpetuating the idea that it's only something that affects women. I think that even this narrative that queer people are four times higher, that even perpetuates the idea that like, queer people are more at risk. I think when you look at straight men, not to like play a violin for straight white men, but if you look at straight men and you look at the rise of you know, performance enhancing drugs, the way that like my feed on Instagram is full of sis hetman who are clearly on steroids, who are clearly abusing their bodies, who clearly have an insanely commonplicated relationship with food. If you look at Hollywood leading men who have to get into really intense shape for certain roles. When a woman loses weight, it's like oh god, x y Z. When a man when you have to book up and all of a sudden, you've been a certain way for your whole career, and I can think of a few right off the top of my head. And then all of a sudden, you book a superhero movie and you are five times more muscular, and your waste is tiny, and you're you know, deltoids are capped, you're doing stuff.

There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean, so this idea that.

There is a relationship with food that you have. I mean, so this idea that.

It's only queer men and that it's only women, I think is not true. And I also think that on my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you know science. We have this idea of science and the coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and that the data that comes up in science is infallible or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax, I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society because the questions that we even ask in science are based off of the questions that we're asking in society. So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they don't know how to control their food intake, when they don't know.

It's only queer men and that it's only women, I think is not true. And I also think that on my podcast, I've learned a lot about how like you know science. We have this idea of science and the coverage of science as being this like infallible island, and that the data that comes up in science is infallible or we don't really speak to it. And I'm definitely not a Q and non conspiracy girl. Like I'm pro vax, I'm pro science. However, science is a reflection of society because the questions that we even ask in science are based off of the questions that we're asking in society. So men, because of toxic masculinity, do not speak to when they have an abusive relationship with food, when they don't know how to control their food intake, when they don't know.

How to ask for help.

How to ask for help.

It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know, it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So I just think we have to be careful when we're talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's fitness covers and they think that's normal.

It's seemed as shameful, it's seen as all you know, it challenges that idea that men are stronger xyz. So I just think we have to be careful when we're talking about eating disorders, especially for like young men who absolutely struggle with body ideals. They look at these men's fitness covers and they think that's normal.

I do think that also happens in.

I do think that also happens in.

The queer community, but I really think that it happens probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity does not allow them to ask for help.

The queer community, but I really think that it happens probably to straight men just as much. But toxic masculinity does not allow them to ask for help.

Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that people having a screwed up relationship with food and their bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows no boundaries.

Jess. I'm curious how you feel about that, because I think what JVN Is saying, if I'm correct me, if I'm wrong, Jonathan, is that we have to be careful about making these generalizations. That it seems to me that people having a screwed up relationship with food and their bodies and exercise and honestly their shells right their external appearance and what they're signaling to society that it knows no boundaries.

Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches it touches older men and women, it touches young kids. I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat, and that pushes all of us to these extremes and more importantly sends this message that like we should never be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have to love the way we look, but also we should never stop working on how we look, and we should always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and to forever be read to the next fad diet or the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better. It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching for that perfect look that we can ever find, and you're right, it touches all of us.

Basically, Oh absolutely, I couldn't agree more jav And You're exactly right, Like, this is not something This is something that touches men, It touches the black community, it touches it touches older men and women, it touches young kids. I mean, like, there's no escaping this. We are all steeped in this culture that is obsessed with the way we look, that is obsessed with the way we eat, and that pushes all of us to these extremes and more importantly sends this message that like we should never be satisfied, right, Like it's like, well, yes, we have to love the way we look, but also we should never stop working on how we look, and we should always be thinking about changing our bodies, and that just sets people up to perpetually be dissatisfied, to feel like they're failing, to feel like they're not living up, and to forever be read to the next fad diet or the next extreme to try to make themselves feel better. It's like this never ending, vicious cycle of constantly searching for that perfect look that we can ever find, and you're right, it touches all of us.

And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection.

And social media obviously has only exacerbated the issue because we're constantly accosted by images of perfection or people seeking perfection.

Right.

Right.

But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I do think there are some common threads that connect everyone who has struggles in this area. And as I read your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers. Because you seem like a person full of joy, such an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois.

But I'm curious, Jonathan, if you can talk a little bit about your childhood, because I do think and Jesse's the experts, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, But I do think there are some common threads that connect everyone who has struggles in this area. And as I read your story and read your book, Jonathan, it seems like there were things that happened in your childhood that were triggers. Because you seem like a person full of joy, such an individual who in many ways loved yourself, but in other ways society wouldn't let you be the person you wanted to be. Can you just talk about your journey a little bit as a young person growing up in Quincy, Illinois.

I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like, and I talk about this a lot in the book. I don't think it's like this like finish line that you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to put that in a pretty little package and put it up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know, it took me a long time to like learn to love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is very much like a few steps forward, a few steps back sort of things. So I feel like, you know, just to get that out of the way. But yes, as a child, I think one of the things that sticks out for me the most when I think about over the Top and writing over the top. When I was going into some of those really formative like core memories, it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one. I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom, when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals, and I was like, all these other people have these abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals. I have this like softer belly and I don't get it. And and I remember, you know, there was a lot of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just don't have.

I don't know if like loving yourself as ever like, and I talk about this a lot in the book. I don't think it's like this like finish line that you get to and you're like, oh, yes, like I did the Loving Myself marathon and now I get to put that in a pretty little package and put it up on a shelf. But I don't have to deal with that again. But I definitely think that, like, you know, it took me a long time to like learn to love and accept myself, and that, you know, acceptance is very much like a few steps forward, a few steps back sort of things. So I feel like, you know, just to get that out of the way. But yes, as a child, I think one of the things that sticks out for me the most when I think about over the Top and writing over the top. When I was going into some of those really formative like core memories, it's like those Bowflex commercials, Like it's like nineteen ninety one. I remember like it was trying to learn to backflip on the trampoline because like all I wanted to be was Kim zamescal and there was these Bowflex commercials and I I remember looking at my mom and I was like, Mom, when am I going to have abdominals? Like I just I was like because they kept talking about these abdominals, and I was like, all these other people have these abdominals on this television screen, but I have not abdominals. I have this like softer belly and I don't get it. And and I remember, you know, there was a lot of conversation strut like you know, some people genetically just don't have.

They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah.

They won't have visible apps, and I was like, oh my god, I'm one of those people. Fuck Like oh yeah.

There's a lot of like fear around like not looking like other young you know, other people my age, and then looking at older men and being like, oh my god, how am I ever going to look like that?

There's a lot of like fear around like not looking like other young you know, other people my age, and then looking at older men and being like, oh my god, how am I ever going to look like that?

I don't look like that now.

I don't look like that now.

So there's just being a lot of like fear around, you know, the way that my body looked. And I think that for me, I think a lot of the body image was like as I came of age and realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard to date as a young gay person in a rural space. But then there's all these like really intense like standards in the gay world around like what you're meant to look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better, but that still is like a very like you know, fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the gay community is still a thing.

So there's just being a lot of like fear around, you know, the way that my body looked. And I think that for me, I think a lot of the body image was like as I came of age and realized that like you're not gonna like it's already heard to date as a young gay person in a rural space. But then there's all these like really intense like standards in the gay world around like what you're meant to look like, and so in some spaces it's getting better, but that still is like a very like you know, fat phobia and racism and transphobia and just being really like you know, like in your toxic masculinity and the gay community is still a thing.

Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think it's really about validation.

Like we weren't exploring those ideas then. But I think it's really about validation.

That's where I was going with that, is that it's like you want to look a certain way so that people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute, They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly, and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get cuter and butche it up so people will accept you. And I think that also with men, like so the body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you, a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about I think it's about rejection and validation and in order to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected, or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's why men have a harder time speaking to it, because that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was, you know, seeing all of this play out in real time, you know, as a kid as well. It's not like I just learned this, Like I was observing this as a child as well.

That's where I was going with that, is that it's like you want to look a certain way so that people will accept you, because it like hurts when you're getting rejected. If you're like do you think I'm cute, They're like, no, I think you're a femme, fat ugly, and you're like, oh my god, So you gotta get cuter and butche it up so people will accept you. And I think that also with men, like so the body image things, it's really about like rejection, putting yourself out there having like whether it's a man rejecting you, a woman rejecting you, it just it really is about I think it's about rejection and validation and in order to be like, oh it hurts me when I get rejected, or like it makes me feel stupid when I'm asking for validation in whatever kind of way. I think that's why men have a harder time speaking to it, because that's such a vulnerable thing to say. But I was, you know, seeing all of this play out in real time, you know, as a kid as well. It's not like I just learned this, Like I was observing this as a child as well.

Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked as a kid, or you know, how did that all play out in your head in terms of having it translate into your relationship with food.

Well. Talk about figuring out your place and the culture and how these unrealistic beauty standards, whether it was the bowflex commercial or being bullied for the way you looked as a kid, or you know, how did that all play out in your head in terms of having it translate into your relationship with food.

Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh, like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight, and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight. So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food. At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot of lack of control with that. There's a lot of confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret. But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like you're queer or trans are non binary because you were sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot, like in comments when I speak to being a survivor of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay, the reason why this is important is because just like eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put ten people in the same situation and they're all going to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma. So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes, like I think because I didn't have control and I didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food was this place where I could feel better. I didn't understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but like I was, so I was just like loaded up on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control, or at least I.

Yeah, absolutely so when I came of age and realized that, like, oh, like maybe people will think you're cuter if you lose weight, and they'll be nicer to you if you lose weight. So that kind of happened, Like through the very beginning of my puberty, I got a lot of comfort from food. At the same time, you know, I'm a survivor of sexual abuse, so there was like I had a lot of lack of control with that. There's a lot of confusion with that. You know, couldn't control it, big secret. But I know, like people will say, like, oh, like you're queer or trans are non binary because you were sexually abused as a child. Like people say that a lot, like in comments when I speak to being a survivor of sexual abuse, which really pisses me off because I know for a fact I was humping pillows to Tom Selleck and Magnum p I way before I got sexually abused. Okay, the reason why this is important is because just like eating disorders and just like sexual abuse, you can put ten people in the same situation and they're all going to have like really different ways of dealing with that trauma. So like, just because you're a survival abuse does not mean you're going to be gay. I know lots of other people who have survived sexual abuse, whether it was like a heterod sexual abusive situation or like a homosexual sexual abusive situation. But as far as the food part goes, like I think because I didn't have control and I didn't understand boundaries, and I had this huge secret food was this place where I could feel better. I didn't understand I was getting this gigantic rush of dopamines, but like I was, so I was just like loaded up on dopamine and that that was you know, I had control, or at least I.

Thought I did.

Thought I did.

When we come back, JVN talks about how he came to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is.

When we come back, JVN talks about how he came to better understand and his own non binary identity. We're back with JBN and Jesse Manzielkin is.

So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God, other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially, you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse.

So freaking since nineteen ninety two, Get out of here. God, other than your hair, other than your hair. But like facially, you know what I'm saying, Like this is just gorge, Jesse.

I mean, you deal with with people all the time where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise, if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right with your behavior. And then of course there's the body dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with who you are and what you look like. So hearing Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms of a lot of your other patients.

I mean, you deal with with people all the time where they're you know, they're plagued by this food noise, if you will, and constantly thinking about it, and I think equating some kind of moral goodness or badness right with your behavior. And then of course there's the body dysmorphia element as well, kind of never feeling satisfied, always focusing on the negative, never kind of being happy with who you are and what you look like. So hearing Jonathan talk about this, does this sound familiar in terms of a lot of your other patients.

Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan, how you kind of connect this to emotions and how people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right, eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive, and it's it's so much more complex than that. And you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this really complex connection between our emotions and often like for some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise, and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way, especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing, it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then they get trapped into that cycle because it works so well in that moment right to numb out or to escape, or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins to cause problems. And so the key is really finding what are those other strategies or those ways that I can soothe myself, that I can take care of those emotions in a way that is much healthier for me. And I think, like the marker of recovery is how am I doing most of the time, How am I dealing with those emotions most of the time as I move forward in my life.

Oh absolutely, And I think I really I really appreciate Jonathan, how you kind of connect this to emotions and how people cope with their emotions, because I think we tend to like oversimplify eating disorders sometimes, and that's like one of those awful myths I think that is out there, that, right, eating disorders are like this vanity issue, but it's only about looking a certain way or looking attractive or being attractive, and it's it's so much more complex than that. And you brought that up exactly, which is that there's this really complex connection between our emotions and often like for some people, like you said it exactly right, Like for some people it's you know, I turned to substances. He for some people it's it's food, it's or it's exercise, and it's like it's hitting those extremes and using those behaviors to try to regulate your emotions in some way, especially when those emotions feel completely intolerable. Right, it's so distressing, it's so painful, and so logically I think understandably, people reach for whatever seems to work for them, and then they get trapped into that cycle because it works so well in that moment right to numb out or to escape, or you get that rush or that euphoria, but then ultimately it catches up with you right like it begins to cause problems. And so the key is really finding what are those other strategies or those ways that I can soothe myself, that I can take care of those emotions in a way that is much healthier for me. And I think, like the marker of recovery is how am I doing most of the time, How am I dealing with those emotions most of the time as I move forward in my life.

So really for me, like I luckily, and I think that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like it's no more about if I look cute or not. I feel like I look really cute. I feel like I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia where I actually think I look cuter than I am, like through a lot of self work. I think I really do. But I think that was like a lot of like self work, and like I have like confidence now, which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns and so like you know, even though I still I think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having more disordered eating.

So really for me, like I luckily, and I think that was true therapy. I like for me, it's like it's no more about if I look cute or not. I feel like I look really cute. I feel like I actually maybe like developed like a reverse body dysmorphia where I actually think I look cuter than I am, like through a lot of self work. I think I really do. But I think that was like a lot of like self work, and like I have like confidence now, which is like awesome, but I still have the patterns and so like you know, even though I still I think I look cuter, but I still yeah, I still have those like old patterns, right, Like I caught myself like shaming myself almost or like having this narrative that like wasn't reflective of reality because I'm used to having more disordered eating.

So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H.

So, yeah, healing. You're so right, jesse H.

I don't think I've ever read so much fun on a podcast in my life.

I don't think I've ever read so much fun on a podcast in my life.

Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like this difference right between like it's okay to use food in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste, right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just thinking about why am I using this? And what is the extreme and what is the function of why I'm using this? And that's like that's part of that key to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy it and even just because it's going to bring me a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now, or am I using this to try to like numb out or bearing my feelings or avoid whatever is going out on for me? And that's really the difference right there.

Well, I'm glad that you said that, because yeah, like this difference right between like it's okay to use food in a comforting and emotional way or to enjoy the taste, right Like, there's nothing in wrong with embracing the fact that food can bring us pleasure and enjoyment. It's just thinking about why am I using this? And what is the extreme and what is the function of why I'm using this? And that's like that's part of that key to healing and recovering, right doing this because I enjoy it and even just because it's going to bring me a little bit of soothing and the happiness right now, or am I using this to try to like numb out or bearing my feelings or avoid whatever is going out on for me? And that's really the difference right there.

I think rigidity often comes with disordered eating because I know that as someone who always strive for perfection, if I if I somehow ate something that I deemed was bad, then I would be so full of shame and so angry at myself for not being disciplined that it would open the door and open the floodgates and I would eat everything because I had this really screwed up attitude that I blew it for the day. I'm going to have to start over tomorrow. And I think so many people have that built in rigidity and they set themselves up for failure. I'm curious just you know, Jonathan talked about when they were sexually abused as a child, and I know they wrote about it in their book about being in church and having an older church member, And I'm curious how often a traumatic event sets someone down this path? But how does that set one up for these kinds of problems.

I think rigidity often comes with disordered eating because I know that as someone who always strive for perfection, if I if I somehow ate something that I deemed was bad, then I would be so full of shame and so angry at myself for not being disciplined that it would open the door and open the floodgates and I would eat everything because I had this really screwed up attitude that I blew it for the day. I'm going to have to start over tomorrow. And I think so many people have that built in rigidity and they set themselves up for failure. I'm curious just you know, Jonathan talked about when they were sexually abused as a child, and I know they wrote about it in their book about being in church and having an older church member, And I'm curious how often a traumatic event sets someone down this path? But how does that set one up for these kinds of problems.

I mean, absolutely, trauma is a huge risk factor for the development of really any mental health problem, definitely an eating disorder. We see higher rates of trauma in the eating disorder community. And I think Jonathan said it so nicely. We all have different ways of coping with trauma. For some reason, Some people are just more resilient for whatever reason. We're not really sure why, and it isn't even necessarily specific to a support system or a family or whatever. Developing something like PTSD or depression or anxiety or and eating disorder following something as awful as a traumatic event. We just don't know why it hits some people and not others. And trauma does so many complex things to a person. It's a myriad of scenarios that people develop, and that constant and self talk, and that shame and the anxiety that you carry out of those sorts of situations, it sets you up for a lifetype of It could be isolation, it could be problematic relationships, complex, very difficult, painful emotions and memories that so many of us we just aren't equipped to know how to cope with. It's this what we call kind of a general risk factor. It's not necessarily specific to eating disorders, but it's a general risk factor for a lot of mental health problems. And so it's important for the community and eating disorders because we need to understand that we're going to see higher rates of trauma in these individuals and be ready to approach our care from that trauma informed lens to make these people feel safe, feel heard, feel validated, and to give them a really safe space for healing.

I mean, absolutely, trauma is a huge risk factor for the development of really any mental health problem, definitely an eating disorder. We see higher rates of trauma in the eating disorder community. And I think Jonathan said it so nicely. We all have different ways of coping with trauma. For some reason, Some people are just more resilient for whatever reason. We're not really sure why, and it isn't even necessarily specific to a support system or a family or whatever. Developing something like PTSD or depression or anxiety or and eating disorder following something as awful as a traumatic event. We just don't know why it hits some people and not others. And trauma does so many complex things to a person. It's a myriad of scenarios that people develop, and that constant and self talk, and that shame and the anxiety that you carry out of those sorts of situations, it sets you up for a lifetype of It could be isolation, it could be problematic relationships, complex, very difficult, painful emotions and memories that so many of us we just aren't equipped to know how to cope with. It's this what we call kind of a general risk factor. It's not necessarily specific to eating disorders, but it's a general risk factor for a lot of mental health problems. And so it's important for the community and eating disorders because we need to understand that we're going to see higher rates of trauma in these individuals and be ready to approach our care from that trauma informed lens to make these people feel safe, feel heard, feel validated, and to give them a really safe space for healing.

I think Queer Eye has been so instrumental Jonathan and helping people shape their views for the importance of being inclusive, the fact that there are many different people with different views on gender, sexual orientation, sort of who they are. And I'm curious things have changed so much in your lifetime. Obviously we have a ways to go. How have these developments and our understanding of gender and a greater acceptance of fluidity, how have they affected you in terms of your view of yourself. Do you feel almost liberated in a way that you never did before in years past?

I think Queer Eye has been so instrumental Jonathan and helping people shape their views for the importance of being inclusive, the fact that there are many different people with different views on gender, sexual orientation, sort of who they are. And I'm curious things have changed so much in your lifetime. Obviously we have a ways to go. How have these developments and our understanding of gender and a greater acceptance of fluidity, how have they affected you in terms of your view of yourself. Do you feel almost liberated in a way that you never did before in years past?

Hmmm, Katie, I don't know. I just don't know.

Hmmm, Katie, I don't know. I just don't know.

I think living in Texas because I've been here for three years. On a singular level, like on a personal level, I do when I'm at home, when I go out to eat in Texas, I don't wear heels because if I need to run for my life, like I don't want to be in heels. Like I don't dress the same in Texas, like even in Austin, Like I just I always am looking behind me. I'm always like I don't feel safe in a lot of spaces, and.

I think living in Texas because I've been here for three years. On a singular level, like on a personal level, I do when I'm at home, when I go out to eat in Texas, I don't wear heels because if I need to run for my life, like I don't want to be in heels. Like I don't dress the same in Texas, like even in Austin, Like I just I always am looking behind me. I'm always like I don't feel safe in a lot of spaces, and.

So we haven't come as far as I was hoping we have.

So we haven't come as far as I was hoping we have.

Well, I mean in the state of Texas, if I mean, if I think if I had a kid like that would be enough for a fellow parent to refer me to the Child Protective Services for child abuse, because I mean Ken Paxton, who's a trial for impeachment in state Texas. But Governor Abbitt as well, like they made an executive order that incentivized child protective Services to you know, investigate any parents who had kids that they that other parents thought look too queer at school.

Well, I mean in the state of Texas, if I mean, if I think if I had a kid like that would be enough for a fellow parent to refer me to the Child Protective Services for child abuse, because I mean Ken Paxton, who's a trial for impeachment in state Texas. But Governor Abbitt as well, like they made an executive order that incentivized child protective Services to you know, investigate any parents who had kids that they that other parents thought look too queer at school.

We're trans you know.

We're trans you know.

I mean, it really feels like, you know, personally, and I think when I go I call it my capitalist guilt and shame room. Like when I look at my purses, I'm like wow, Like I have a bunch of cool shit that I never thought I could have personally, and like there's you know when I think about like that I'm friends with Michelle Kwan, or like that I've done her hair, like that I have, you know, two best selling not like two best selling books in the New York Times best seller list, like accomplishments that I personally had. I'm like, wow, that's really fucking cool, and I never thought that I could do that. But also at the same time, like it's not like as you said, like it is a severe backlash. Like so I think I have come to.

I mean, it really feels like, you know, personally, and I think when I go I call it my capitalist guilt and shame room. Like when I look at my purses, I'm like wow, Like I have a bunch of cool shit that I never thought I could have personally, and like there's you know when I think about like that I'm friends with Michelle Kwan, or like that I've done her hair, like that I have, you know, two best selling not like two best selling books in the New York Times best seller list, like accomplishments that I personally had. I'm like, wow, that's really fucking cool, and I never thought that I could do that. But also at the same time, like it's not like as you said, like it is a severe backlash. Like so I think I have come to.

A personal place where I'm like wow, Like I'm my.

A personal place where I'm like wow, Like I'm my.

World is way more open on gender, Like my world is more open on like expressing myself. But you know, when I go to the state Capitol and I protest, and I have like parents, you know, coming up to me and showing me pictures of their eight year old and their seven year old and their ten year old and their twelve year old, and they're talking about like we're gonna have to move, like we are worried that our kids are getting taken away from us.

World is way more open on gender, Like my world is more open on like expressing myself. But you know, when I go to the state Capitol and I protest, and I have like parents, you know, coming up to me and showing me pictures of their eight year old and their seven year old and their ten year old and their twelve year old, and they're talking about like we're gonna have to move, like we are worried that our kids are getting taken away from us.

We'll have more with Jonathan Vaness and Jesse Minzel right after this. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com and We're back.

We'll have more with Jonathan Vaness and Jesse Minzel right after this. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com and We're back.

Can we just zoom chat every morning about issues? And like, can we just I'm literally having so much fun, like can we just like I've never had so much mine?

Can we just zoom chat every morning about issues? And like, can we just I'm literally having so much fun, like can we just like I've never had so much mine?

You're so smart. I really appreciate hearing you and anyway, I just love smart people, and Jesse, you are too.

You're so smart. I really appreciate hearing you and anyway, I just love smart people, and Jesse, you are too.

I love you guys.

I love you guys.

I think they're a very small percentage of people, Jesse would be my guests that don't have some kind of body dysmorphia in one shape or form. But I'm curious being non binary, Jonathan, how that has impacted your relationship with your body and how you have been able to navigate that because talk about complex.

I think they're a very small percentage of people, Jesse would be my guests that don't have some kind of body dysmorphia in one shape or form. But I'm curious being non binary, Jonathan, how that has impacted your relationship with your body and how you have been able to navigate that because talk about complex.

Right, Yeah, I mean I think for me, a lot of that was my friend a Loake that taught me about non binary identity, and they were feelings that I always had, Like I didn't feel like I fit in with the boys. I definitely didn't fit in with the girls. Like I felt aligned with like masculinity sometimes, I felt aligned with femininity sometimes, but the way that like socially were meant to function in the binary like, I never felt a part of that conversation. I did not have an internal sense of like what it was to be a man, or like what it is to be a man and the way that we like think about it. So then when I met a Loak and started you know, learning more language around gender identity and also too, frankly because like so many people from Queer Eye, like so many fans were like, are you trans?

Right, Yeah, I mean I think for me, a lot of that was my friend a Loake that taught me about non binary identity, and they were feelings that I always had, Like I didn't feel like I fit in with the boys. I definitely didn't fit in with the girls. Like I felt aligned with like masculinity sometimes, I felt aligned with femininity sometimes, but the way that like socially were meant to function in the binary like, I never felt a part of that conversation. I did not have an internal sense of like what it was to be a man, or like what it is to be a man and the way that we like think about it. So then when I met a Loak and started you know, learning more language around gender identity and also too, frankly because like so many people from Queer Eye, like so many fans were like, are you trans?

Are you non binary?

Are you non binary?

So I you know, like and I talk about that, like I'd have to like hide my heels in my closet, I'd have to like hide my crop tops, hide my makeup. I didn't want the guy, so I was like bringing home to Like I definitely had like a going out to bring home a guy me and then like the real me. And I always felt like I had to like if I really started dating someone, I'd have to be like this is how I really look, this is how I really am. Like that was actually just like me trying to be but can you imagine, which makes me laugh a lot now. So but anyway, once I understood the language, I was like, oh, that is totally who I am, like non binary, gender non conforming, Like that is totally what I am and what I've always been. And so that just really resonated. And I think in my second book, Love That Story, I talk about how like I think that dichotomy of like and the pain associated with like not being the fullness of who I am, like in terms of like dating, like once your sexual partner number gets to have like a comma in it, which mind died, so it became much more about, like, I didn't care about other people validation because I'd already got like I knew that that sexual validation was kind of empty. So I realized it was way more important for me to be true to myself because that was actually much more fulfilling and much more real and like rewarding for me than to try to, like, you know, compartmentalize my life. So once that, once my relationship to my sexual like self healed more, I was able to like be, you know, more fully who I am.

So I you know, like and I talk about that, like I'd have to like hide my heels in my closet, I'd have to like hide my crop tops, hide my makeup. I didn't want the guy, so I was like bringing home to Like I definitely had like a going out to bring home a guy me and then like the real me. And I always felt like I had to like if I really started dating someone, I'd have to be like this is how I really look, this is how I really am. Like that was actually just like me trying to be but can you imagine, which makes me laugh a lot now. So but anyway, once I understood the language, I was like, oh, that is totally who I am, like non binary, gender non conforming, Like that is totally what I am and what I've always been. And so that just really resonated. And I think in my second book, Love That Story, I talk about how like I think that dichotomy of like and the pain associated with like not being the fullness of who I am, like in terms of like dating, like once your sexual partner number gets to have like a comma in it, which mind died, so it became much more about, like, I didn't care about other people validation because I'd already got like I knew that that sexual validation was kind of empty. So I realized it was way more important for me to be true to myself because that was actually much more fulfilling and much more real and like rewarding for me than to try to, like, you know, compartmentalize my life. So once that, once my relationship to my sexual like self healed more, I was able to like be, you know, more fully who I am.

Jesse. I love that EQUIP is so aware of lgbt qia plus individuals and that you are all trained on gender affirming care. How did you observe the need for that or that there was a vacuum out there for that kind of treatment.

Jesse. I love that EQUIP is so aware of lgbt qia plus individuals and that you are all trained on gender affirming care. How did you observe the need for that or that there was a vacuum out there for that kind of treatment.

I'm so glad you asked about that, Katie. This is something we are so proud of that EQUIP and at EQUIP, about fifteen percent of our patients identify within the lgbtqia plus community, and so we are working with a higher proportion of individuals than most treatment programs ever see in the eating disorder community. And part of the access issue is, I think, being able to see yourself in the treatment settings and the treatment programs and to feel welcome in those treatment settings and treatment programs. And so in my role at EQUIP, what I've had the chance to do is work with experts in the lgbtqia plus community, to work with people who are part of the lgbtqia plus community, and thinking about how we can make our treatment program a place that is welcoming and inclusive of these individuals from start to finish. And so our program includes looking at do these individuals see themselves on our website, the questions that we ask, the language we use on our intake forms. We've comed through all of that to make sure that it is accepting of gender expansive individuals and experiences. And we think it is crucial that eating disorder treatment and someone's gender and sexual gender identity and sexual orientation, that these two things the integral, not a part and not separate. It's not like we can take someone who is who is transgender and say like, well, we're going to like set that part of you aside for a second, and we're just going to talk about your eating disorder, and we'll get to that later. The whole philosophy behind our Grace program, it's a gender responsive and affirming care at EQUIP. The idea is that you have to talk about both of these things at the same time because they're often so intertwined. You know, you talk about complex relationships with someone's body, Katie, and like talk about someone who feels like they were born in the wrong body, someone who's outside physical attributes do not match how they see themselves inside. We call that gender dysphoria. And not everyone in the trans community experiences gender dysphoria, but for those that do, it is so painful, it causes so much distressed and often the eating disorder functions as a way to try to bring their physical self more closely in line with their identity and how they see themselves, or to prevent themselves from getting even further from that. So an eating disorder might serve as a way for someone to delay the onset of puberty so that they don't have to develop secondary sex characteristics, or an eating disorder might be a way of helping somebody feel more fem or more mask like in their build and their physique and their frame. And so we can't treat an eating disorder in someone who is trans or non binary without also talking about how that eating disorder relates to their gender identity. And so what our training and what this program includes is like, is it heads to our clinicians that you need to be educated and the issues that are specific to this community, to be affirming of that identity, to understand how that is relating to their eating disorder, and we need to incorporate that throughout the entire treatment journey at EQUIPPED.

I'm so glad you asked about that, Katie. This is something we are so proud of that EQUIP and at EQUIP, about fifteen percent of our patients identify within the lgbtqia plus community, and so we are working with a higher proportion of individuals than most treatment programs ever see in the eating disorder community. And part of the access issue is, I think, being able to see yourself in the treatment settings and the treatment programs and to feel welcome in those treatment settings and treatment programs. And so in my role at EQUIP, what I've had the chance to do is work with experts in the lgbtqia plus community, to work with people who are part of the lgbtqia plus community, and thinking about how we can make our treatment program a place that is welcoming and inclusive of these individuals from start to finish. And so our program includes looking at do these individuals see themselves on our website, the questions that we ask, the language we use on our intake forms. We've comed through all of that to make sure that it is accepting of gender expansive individuals and experiences. And we think it is crucial that eating disorder treatment and someone's gender and sexual gender identity and sexual orientation, that these two things the integral, not a part and not separate. It's not like we can take someone who is who is transgender and say like, well, we're going to like set that part of you aside for a second, and we're just going to talk about your eating disorder, and we'll get to that later. The whole philosophy behind our Grace program, it's a gender responsive and affirming care at EQUIP. The idea is that you have to talk about both of these things at the same time because they're often so intertwined. You know, you talk about complex relationships with someone's body, Katie, and like talk about someone who feels like they were born in the wrong body, someone who's outside physical attributes do not match how they see themselves inside. We call that gender dysphoria. And not everyone in the trans community experiences gender dysphoria, but for those that do, it is so painful, it causes so much distressed and often the eating disorder functions as a way to try to bring their physical self more closely in line with their identity and how they see themselves, or to prevent themselves from getting even further from that. So an eating disorder might serve as a way for someone to delay the onset of puberty so that they don't have to develop secondary sex characteristics, or an eating disorder might be a way of helping somebody feel more fem or more mask like in their build and their physique and their frame. And so we can't treat an eating disorder in someone who is trans or non binary without also talking about how that eating disorder relates to their gender identity. And so what our training and what this program includes is like, is it heads to our clinicians that you need to be educated and the issues that are specific to this community, to be affirming of that identity, to understand how that is relating to their eating disorder, and we need to incorporate that throughout the entire treatment journey at EQUIPPED.

What do you think about that, JVM, when you hear about that approach, does that resonate with you?

What do you think about that, JVM, when you hear about that approach, does that resonate with you?

Oh, I'm just over here snapping, clapping, I'm upset so that the great acronym. I love a good acronym. I am like, I'm all about it. Snap, It's like you better work. I'm obsessed. Go Jesse, go CLI, Like, where do I sign up?

Oh, I'm just over here snapping, clapping, I'm upset so that the great acronym. I love a good acronym. I am like, I'm all about it. Snap, It's like you better work. I'm obsessed. Go Jesse, go CLI, Like, where do I sign up?

I need it?

I need it?

You all can talk about that after the podcast. But to bring it full circle and what JBN was saying originally, Jesse that there's so many people who don't get help. I sort of feel like, when people need help, people need help, let's look at them as individuals. And I'm curious how you can develop something that will reach some of these folks who are too talk about shame, talk about expectations, too embarrassed to reach out for help.

You all can talk about that after the podcast. But to bring it full circle and what JBN was saying originally, Jesse that there's so many people who don't get help. I sort of feel like, when people need help, people need help, let's look at them as individuals. And I'm curious how you can develop something that will reach some of these folks who are too talk about shame, talk about expectations, too embarrassed to reach out for help.

I think voices like Jonathan's and there are a bunch of other people who have come out about their own struggles with disordered eating men who have started to talk about the eating disorders that they've had and that they've struggled with. I think there are more men now talking about the extreme pressures that exist for men when it comes to their physical looks and how they treat their bodies and what they do with their bodies. But this is I think one of the beauties of virtual treatment, because I think part of the idea here is that when you can reach out for help by going onto the internet, by using your computer, by using your phone, it takes away some of those barriers that you have to otherwise face and going out and asking for help, of having to make phone calls to go physically walk into a clinic or walk into a treatment program. I think there are a lot of people who still don't feel like they can do that or maybe know they need it, but still feel ashamed of having to do it. And so that's I think the beauty of bringing treatment at home is because I think that helps solve the access problem. We can take away some of the shame and the stigma associated with mental health because you can do this right from the comfort of your own home. And so hopefully we'll continue to advance this and move this forward, but we need to have more creative ways to help these people right now.

I think voices like Jonathan's and there are a bunch of other people who have come out about their own struggles with disordered eating men who have started to talk about the eating disorders that they've had and that they've struggled with. I think there are more men now talking about the extreme pressures that exist for men when it comes to their physical looks and how they treat their bodies and what they do with their bodies. But this is I think one of the beauties of virtual treatment, because I think part of the idea here is that when you can reach out for help by going onto the internet, by using your computer, by using your phone, it takes away some of those barriers that you have to otherwise face and going out and asking for help, of having to make phone calls to go physically walk into a clinic or walk into a treatment program. I think there are a lot of people who still don't feel like they can do that or maybe know they need it, but still feel ashamed of having to do it. And so that's I think the beauty of bringing treatment at home is because I think that helps solve the access problem. We can take away some of the shame and the stigma associated with mental health because you can do this right from the comfort of your own home. And so hopefully we'll continue to advance this and move this forward, but we need to have more creative ways to help these people right now.

And Jvan, I feel like you have made a lot of progress in terms of a understanding deeply, at a very deep level, so many of these issues, but you remain a work in progress like all of us. And I'm curious for people who might be listening to this, who really might be struggling with any kind of self acceptance, what are some of the tools that can help them on this journey, because I do feel like you're so wise.

And Jvan, I feel like you have made a lot of progress in terms of a understanding deeply, at a very deep level, so many of these issues, but you remain a work in progress like all of us. And I'm curious for people who might be listening to this, who really might be struggling with any kind of self acceptance, what are some of the tools that can help them on this journey, because I do feel like you're so wise.

Thanks.

Thanks.

I'm like, thank you. Two things came up for me with that question. Okay, So basically, there are so many modalities of healing, like the health of any size community, and some of the modalities have certain guidelines that other ones don't. And it doesn't mean that some are bad, some are this. It's just there's so many different ways of healing. But one thing that I thought was really interesting about Hayes, or like the health of any size community that learned about, it's like, first of all, you're gorgeous, you're hot. It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside. So, and you're beautiful and worthy of love and acceptance and celebration. But it's like, you're not the voice in your head, Like you're the observer of the voice in your head. So once you can stop identifying with like, oh my god, I don't feel cute about myself, I feel horrible or whatever the fee whatever that voice is saying, girl, that's not you. You're observing that voice. That's where the piece is. So it doesn't matter how you look it like, and it doesn't like so piece is available to us at all times.

I'm like, thank you. Two things came up for me with that question. Okay, So basically, there are so many modalities of healing, like the health of any size community, and some of the modalities have certain guidelines that other ones don't. And it doesn't mean that some are bad, some are this. It's just there's so many different ways of healing. But one thing that I thought was really interesting about Hayes, or like the health of any size community that learned about, it's like, first of all, you're gorgeous, you're hot. It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside. So, and you're beautiful and worthy of love and acceptance and celebration. But it's like, you're not the voice in your head, Like you're the observer of the voice in your head. So once you can stop identifying with like, oh my god, I don't feel cute about myself, I feel horrible or whatever the fee whatever that voice is saying, girl, that's not you. You're observing that voice. That's where the piece is. So it doesn't matter how you look it like, and it doesn't like so piece is available to us at all times.

And that is true.

And that is true.

It might not feel true, but it is because that's I think, really what like Christians and Buddhists and everybody's talking about, like that relationship to the like it's really that like your connection to either your spirituality or higher power, you know, the universe, whatever that's within you at all times so we just disconnect from the voice in our head and we connect to that like expansiveness. That's what I would say to you for the end of your gorgeous podcast. That's what I would say.

It might not feel true, but it is because that's I think, really what like Christians and Buddhists and everybody's talking about, like that relationship to the like it's really that like your connection to either your spirituality or higher power, you know, the universe, whatever that's within you at all times so we just disconnect from the voice in our head and we connect to that like expansiveness. That's what I would say to you for the end of your gorgeous podcast. That's what I would say.

Anyway. I love you, I love talking to you. You kill me Jesse before we go. I mean, obviously people are so unhappy with the world and with themselves. How do you try to get people to, I don't know, give themselves a break.

Anyway. I love you, I love talking to you. You kill me Jesse before we go. I mean, obviously people are so unhappy with the world and with themselves. How do you try to get people to, I don't know, give themselves a break.

I think that's like the million dollar question, right Katie, And I think Javian you said it so well. It's there is always this potential within you, I think to shut out that noise, to set those things aside. It's so hard to do. But I think what I really encourage people to do is you need to look inside yourself and figure out what is important to me, What are my values, what is my truth? Like what speaks to me? And I think that the more that we can we can't do a lot to sort of control what happens in our brain, but what we can control a lot is our behavior and our actions that we take. And I think reminding ourselves of like what is that that is going to bring me happiness? What is it that is going to bring me satisfaction and fulfillment in my life, and having to make this conscious effort to bring yourself back to that all the time, and to make sure that your behaviors and what you're doing and how you're acting is in line with what is important to you and that brings you fulfillment and value in your life.

I think that's like the million dollar question, right Katie, And I think Javian you said it so well. It's there is always this potential within you, I think to shut out that noise, to set those things aside. It's so hard to do. But I think what I really encourage people to do is you need to look inside yourself and figure out what is important to me, What are my values, what is my truth? Like what speaks to me? And I think that the more that we can we can't do a lot to sort of control what happens in our brain, but what we can control a lot is our behavior and our actions that we take. And I think reminding ourselves of like what is that that is going to bring me happiness? What is it that is going to bring me satisfaction and fulfillment in my life, and having to make this conscious effort to bring yourself back to that all the time, and to make sure that your behaviors and what you're doing and how you're acting is in line with what is important to you and that brings you fulfillment and value in your life.

So it can be and ways big and small, but kind of like getting out of your own head and seeing how you can change someone else's day or life or experience.

So it can be and ways big and small, but kind of like getting out of your own head and seeing how you can change someone else's day or life or experience.

And that's I think by finding what is it that's truly important, right and that might not be something inside you, it might be outside of you. It might be your community, helping others, giving back, and so making sure your actions are in surface of those things. Those are the things we can control and bring ourselves.

And that's I think by finding what is it that's truly important, right and that might not be something inside you, it might be outside of you. It might be your community, helping others, giving back, and so making sure your actions are in surface of those things. Those are the things we can control and bring ourselves.

Back to and I think you both are doing that every single day. So thank you Jesse, and thank you JVN. It's such a treat to see you again. And I really enjoyed this conversation. I did too.

Back to and I think you both are doing that every single day. So thank you Jesse, and thank you JVN. It's such a treat to see you again. And I really enjoyed this conversation. I did too.

Thanks for having me, Katie. I'm just like always obsessed with you and Jesse.

Thanks for having me, Katie. I'm just like always obsessed with you and Jesse.

You're amazing, Oh, thank you baking this opportunity.

You're amazing, Oh, thank you baking this opportunity.

This is amazing to talk about both of you today.

This is amazing to talk about both of you today.

Thanks for listening everyone. By the way, if you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short message at six h nine five point two five to five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Meet Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up or my newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.