Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kirk and this is next question. You know, my company, Katie Kirk Media, wouldn't get to do all the cool things we do like bring you this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with. One of those is Ali. Today I'm joined by Ali, Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Yes, someone has that job, Jacqueline Howard. We'll be talking about our deep and often mysterious relationship to you guessed it money. Each of us has a money story, and soon you'll hear mine. It might involve how we viewed money as kids, or how money made our parents feel. Not only do those money stories stay with us, they really impact our financial decisions today and our relationships with our partners, for better or for worse. We'll talk about why. We'll also be chatting with Kirsten and Julian Saunders, founders of Rich and Regular and authors of Cashing Out When the Wealth Game by walking away. Although money can be a breaking point for so many couples, their money story actually has a happy ending. Jacqueline Howard, Welcome. I know you go by Jack so I'll call.

Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kirk and this is next question. You know, my company, Katie Kirk Media, wouldn't get to do all the cool things we do like bring you this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with. One of those is Ali. Today I'm joined by Ali, Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Yes, someone has that job, Jacqueline Howard. We'll be talking about our deep and often mysterious relationship to you guessed it money. Each of us has a money story, and soon you'll hear mine. It might involve how we viewed money as kids, or how money made our parents feel. Not only do those money stories stay with us, they really impact our financial decisions today and our relationships with our partners, for better or for worse. We'll talk about why. We'll also be chatting with Kirsten and Julian Saunders, founders of Rich and Regular and authors of Cashing Out When the Wealth Game by walking away. Although money can be a breaking point for so many couples, their money story actually has a happy ending. Jacqueline Howard, Welcome. I know you go by Jack so I'll call.

You Jack, thank you, thank you for having me.

You Jack, thank you, thank you for having me.

I'm so excited for this conversation because I feel like when people talk about financial literacy, they don't talk about how our views on money and finances have been shaped. Is this a relatively new area of conversation.

I'm so excited for this conversation because I feel like when people talk about financial literacy, they don't talk about how our views on money and finances have been shaped. Is this a relatively new area of conversation.

It is.

It is.

So it's welcome to my world of financial health and wellness and money psychology. I've actually been with ally for about thirteen years. In the first ten years of my career, taught financial literacy and then moved into the space of finance, social inclusion, and money psychology. But yes, it's this area where we're looking at the emotions and subconscious beliefs, all of those things that you may not think about with money, getting away from more of the skills and more of the behaviors and emotions that you have with money that can stop you from having a great relationship with money in the long term. So get into the emotions of it all.

So it's welcome to my world of financial health and wellness and money psychology. I've actually been with ally for about thirteen years. In the first ten years of my career, taught financial literacy and then moved into the space of finance, social inclusion, and money psychology. But yes, it's this area where we're looking at the emotions and subconscious beliefs, all of those things that you may not think about with money, getting away from more of the skills and more of the behaviors and emotions that you have with money that can stop you from having a great relationship with money in the long term. So get into the emotions of it all.

And it's really what you call our money stories and how they have an impact on virtually every aspect of our lives. What exactly makes up a money story?

And it's really what you call our money stories and how they have an impact on virtually every aspect of our lives. What exactly makes up a money story?

Jack, Yeah, So it's really looking at those first money memories that you have, any of your subconscious beliefs, things that you may have learned from your parents, where as an adult you may not think they show up in your life, but in reality they do and it shapes a lot of your financial decisions.

Jack, Yeah, So it's really looking at those first money memories that you have, any of your subconscious beliefs, things that you may have learned from your parents, where as an adult you may not think they show up in your life, but in reality they do and it shapes a lot of your financial decisions.

I can't wait to tell you my money story, but before we do that, let me ask you this question. Most of us blame ourselves for our money problems and think it really is a question of discipline sticking to a budget. But you have found it's far more complicated than that.

I can't wait to tell you my money story, but before we do that, let me ask you this question. Most of us blame ourselves for our money problems and think it really is a question of discipline sticking to a budget. But you have found it's far more complicated than that.

How So, yeah, it's really, when you think of it, eighty percent behavior and twenty percent skill. And for me, with my money story, I have had a lot of shame, and I've worked for a bank in financial literacy for most of my career and still carry shame about money because I have not always been good at it. And it wasn't until I started unpacking my own money story and really understanding money psychology that I began to realize all of the things I learned from my parents and my ancestors, life events, my first memories of money, and how they impact me today, and how that whole process of unpacking it has helped me to be more empathetic with myself and others, and knowing that money is more.

How So, yeah, it's really, when you think of it, eighty percent behavior and twenty percent skill. And for me, with my money story, I have had a lot of shame, and I've worked for a bank in financial literacy for most of my career and still carry shame about money because I have not always been good at it. And it wasn't until I started unpacking my own money story and really understanding money psychology that I began to realize all of the things I learned from my parents and my ancestors, life events, my first memories of money, and how they impact me today, and how that whole process of unpacking it has helped me to be more empathetic with myself and others, and knowing that money is more.

Of a behavior than just skills.

Of a behavior than just skills.

So one of my first memories of money is going to the credit union with my mother. And I have a twin brother named Jack, He's the original Jack, and we would go to the credit and union with my mother, who was a teacher, and every two weeks she would pull out one hundred dollars and then we would go and use that one hundred dollars to go shopping or go to the movies. So my earliest memory of money is creating experiences with family, and my mother shaped that for me because we used money as a tool to create joy and for me now as an adult, I do the same thing.

So one of my first memories of money is going to the credit union with my mother. And I have a twin brother named Jack, He's the original Jack, and we would go to the credit and union with my mother, who was a teacher, and every two weeks she would pull out one hundred dollars and then we would go and use that one hundred dollars to go shopping or go to the movies. So my earliest memory of money is creating experiences with family, and my mother shaped that for me because we used money as a tool to create joy and for me now as an adult, I do the same thing.

That's wonderful. I mean, were there any negative memories for you surrounding money.

That's wonderful. I mean, were there any negative memories for you surrounding money.

Yeah, so, unfortunately my mother passed when I was about twelve years old.

Yeah, so, unfortunately my mother passed when I was about twelve years old.

And for the relationship.

And for the relationship.

Between my mother and father, I would say my mother was more of the saver and my father was more of the spender. And oftentimes in relationships you attract your opposite so for them, they kind of bumped heads on money sometimes, which caused arguments in the family. We had moments where we had a lot of money and not a lot of money. So when my mother passed, she was the person who was more of the found for money for our family, and when she passed, we lost that. So for me, I lost a sense of control, I'll say when it comes to money, a sense of security when it comes to money. When my mother passed and my father, although he did the best that he could with raising two young kids without a mom, he often used money to help us to cover.

Between my mother and father, I would say my mother was more of the saver and my father was more of the spender. And oftentimes in relationships you attract your opposite so for them, they kind of bumped heads on money sometimes, which caused arguments in the family. We had moments where we had a lot of money and not a lot of money. So when my mother passed, she was the person who was more of the found for money for our family, and when she passed, we lost that. So for me, I lost a sense of control, I'll say when it comes to money, a sense of security when it comes to money. When my mother passed and my father, although he did the best that he could with raising two young kids without a mom, he often used money to help us to cover.

Up the fact that we didn't have our mother.

Up the fact that we didn't have our mother.

So that created my other money story of using things to cover up emotions. And that's something that I've also battled with as an adult as well.

So that created my other money story of using things to cover up emotions. And that's something that I've also battled with as an adult as well.

That's fascinating and I was just going to ask you how these childhood memories shaped your relationship with money as an adult.

That's fascinating and I was just going to ask you how these childhood memories shaped your relationship with money as an adult.

By the time I got to high school, I was about fifteen years old and went and got a worker's permit and got my first job at McDonald's. And that is the next piece of my money story of really using money and working as a tool for me to gain control and a tool for me to take care of myself.

By the time I got to high school, I was about fifteen years old and went and got a worker's permit and got my first job at McDonald's. And that is the next piece of my money story of really using money and working as a tool for me to gain control and a tool for me to take care of myself.

So I've spent most of my life.

So I've spent most of my life.

I went to Michigan State University for college, where I graduated with about thirty thousand dollars in debt, but at the same time while at MSU, there were moments where I had three jobs at a time to help pay for it.

I went to Michigan State University for college, where I graduated with about thirty thousand dollars in debt, but at the same time while at MSU, there were moments where I had three jobs at a time to help pay for it.

So I have extreme work.

So I have extreme work.

Ethic for the things that I want, which created this cycle for me of you work really hard, you buy what you want, you might create debt, you pay it off. You work really hard, you may create debt, you work really hard and pay it off, which creates a cycle almost for me, which has been a hamster wheel of I need to make more money to keep all of this going. And it wasn't until I went deep into my money psychology of connecting the dots.

Ethic for the things that I want, which created this cycle for me of you work really hard, you buy what you want, you might create debt, you pay it off. You work really hard, you may create debt, you work really hard and pay it off, which creates a cycle almost for me, which has been a hamster wheel of I need to make more money to keep all of this going. And it wasn't until I went deep into my money psychology of connecting the dots.

Of oh, I'm not just bad with money.

Of oh, I'm not just bad with money.

I learned these things and now I'm able to get to the root issue and address it when things come up of do you want to create an experience in Hawaii that's going to cost you ten thousand dollars or do you want to take your kids for a walk and have that same experience with them that's free.

I learned these things and now I'm able to get to the root issue and address it when things come up of do you want to create an experience in Hawaii that's going to cost you ten thousand dollars or do you want to take your kids for a walk and have that same experience with them that's free.

Connecting those dots for me, it's just been game changing.

Connecting those dots for me, it's just been game changing.

So how were you able to get off the hamster wheel to really understand and take a closer, look at your money psychology and say no, I don't. I want to stop this vicious cycle.

So how were you able to get off the hamster wheel to really understand and take a closer, look at your money psychology and say no, I don't. I want to stop this vicious cycle.

For me, it's been that process of really understanding my root issues. I hadn't thought about my money story until starting the work with Ally. We started a wealth business about a year ago where we grounded it in behavioral finance and asking our clients about their first memory of money is a part of the journey, and as a part of that team, I had to unpack my own money story in order to give that same council to our advisors and for me now, I've created guardrails to help me to navigate when things come up of wanting to use money for experiences or wanting to use money to buy things. Now I'm checking and saying, is it really about the experience or the money or are you looking for something deeper so fascinating?

For me, it's been that process of really understanding my root issues. I hadn't thought about my money story until starting the work with Ally. We started a wealth business about a year ago where we grounded it in behavioral finance and asking our clients about their first memory of money is a part of the journey, and as a part of that team, I had to unpack my own money story in order to give that same council to our advisors and for me now, I've created guardrails to help me to navigate when things come up of wanting to use money for experiences or wanting to use money to buy things. Now I'm checking and saying, is it really about the experience or the money or are you looking for something deeper so fascinating?

Which do you like to hear my money story?

Which do you like to hear my money story?

I would love to hear your money story. Tell me your first memory of.

I would love to hear your money story. Tell me your first memory of.

Money, Gosh. I think probably my first memory of money, Jack is getting a dollar or maybe five dollars in a birthday card from my grandmother and always putting it into a savings account for my college education. I never got an allowance, but my parents gave me money when I needed it. But they also I remember, said I could never buy a treat at the movie theater. Going to the movies was a treat enough, so I wasn't allowed to buy candy or popcorn. I used to smell my friend Janet Taff's empty buttered popcorn container when she was done with it. You know, I was very conscious of not spending money, and I think really because of the generational impact act of their growing up during the Great Depression. When I was in high school, my dad lost his job, so that made me quite nervous about money, even though we were fine. It was something that I think filled my dad with shame and my mom with embarrassment, and so I have. I think I have a very uncomfortable relationship with money. In many ways. I'm not a spender. I'm a saver, and even though I have plenty of disposable income at this point in my life, I still get agitated and anxious when I'm spending a lot of money, or people automatically turn to me and think I'm going to take care of everything that annoys me, and I resent it, but because I want to be generous, but I also don't want to be taken advantage of. That's a lot. That's a lot to break down.

Money, Gosh. I think probably my first memory of money, Jack is getting a dollar or maybe five dollars in a birthday card from my grandmother and always putting it into a savings account for my college education. I never got an allowance, but my parents gave me money when I needed it. But they also I remember, said I could never buy a treat at the movie theater. Going to the movies was a treat enough, so I wasn't allowed to buy candy or popcorn. I used to smell my friend Janet Taff's empty buttered popcorn container when she was done with it. You know, I was very conscious of not spending money, and I think really because of the generational impact act of their growing up during the Great Depression. When I was in high school, my dad lost his job, so that made me quite nervous about money, even though we were fine. It was something that I think filled my dad with shame and my mom with embarrassment, and so I have. I think I have a very uncomfortable relationship with money. In many ways. I'm not a spender. I'm a saver, and even though I have plenty of disposable income at this point in my life, I still get agitated and anxious when I'm spending a lot of money, or people automatically turn to me and think I'm going to take care of everything that annoys me, and I resent it, but because I want to be generous, but I also don't want to be taken advantage of. That's a lot. That's a lot to break down.

That's a lot, isn't it.

That's a lot, isn't it.

And tell me when you were thinking of those first memories of money and the popcorn and the shame you felt from your dad, what emotions came up for you in that process.

And tell me when you were thinking of those first memories of money and the popcorn and the shame you felt from your dad, what emotions came up for you in that process.

Probably a little anger when well, actually I didn't. I appreciated giving my money and putting in a college fund because it made me appreciate the importance of saving and not spending money on things that weren't of value. So I actually really appreciate my parents instilling that in me. But actually I feel pretty healthy about my relationship with money, even though it's complicated like everyone else's.

Probably a little anger when well, actually I didn't. I appreciated giving my money and putting in a college fund because it made me appreciate the importance of saving and not spending money on things that weren't of value. So I actually really appreciate my parents instilling that in me. But actually I feel pretty healthy about my relationship with money, even though it's complicated like everyone else's.

Yeah, the great thing about money psychology and this financial health and wellness space that we're in is bringing awareness to that connection. Right, It sounds like you have a good relationship with money now you've worked through it to come to an appreciation. But for some people they still be scared about not getting a popcorn. So I think the great thing is being able to talk about it and then also deal with those emotions to see how it may be impacting you today.

Yeah, the great thing about money psychology and this financial health and wellness space that we're in is bringing awareness to that connection. Right, It sounds like you have a good relationship with money now you've worked through it to come to an appreciation. But for some people they still be scared about not getting a popcorn. So I think the great thing is being able to talk about it and then also deal with those emotions to see how it may be impacting you today.

I think I need a couch and we need an hour.

I think I need a couch and we need an hour.

I know we do. We need hours to talk about it.

I know we do. We need hours to talk about it.

But I guarantee now that you've given this some thought, it's going to show up in other places.

But I guarantee now that you've given this some thought, it's going to show up in other places.

So look at it as a journey.

So look at it as a journey.

This money psychology and financial health and wellness is a journey of you just unpacking your relationship with money just to get better at it and to let go of any trauma or any stress that you have about it.

This money psychology and financial health and wellness is a journey of you just unpacking your relationship with money just to get better at it and to let go of any trauma or any stress that you have about it.

Unpacking it helps you to get there.

Unpacking it helps you to get there.

We'll have more with Jack Howard right after this. I know there's an actual quiz Jack developed by doctor Brad Klanst financial psychologists, which measures four core money belief system Let's go through them real quickly, and then I'll tell you where I ended up on the test. The first is money avoidance. Tell us what that is?

We'll have more with Jack Howard right after this. I know there's an actual quiz Jack developed by doctor Brad Klanst financial psychologists, which measures four core money belief system Let's go through them real quickly, and then I'll tell you where I ended up on the test. The first is money avoidance. Tell us what that is?

So money avoidance, that's the person. Money is evil. I don't want money. Money is bad.

So money avoidance, that's the person. Money is evil. I don't want money. Money is bad.

You get the bills and the mail, you're throwing them in a folder, not looking at them.

You get the bills and the mail, you're throwing them in a folder, not looking at them.

You're avoiding money.

You're avoiding money.

It's not the best money behavior to have, but you can balance it by really creating a budget and addressing things head on.

It's not the best money behavior to have, but you can balance it by really creating a budget and addressing things head on.

Okay, the next is money worship, the opposite.

Okay, the next is money worship, the opposite.

Money worship and money focused. That's me.

Money worship and money focused. That's me.

So that is a person who thinks that if I just have more money, it will solve everything. If I could just get that promotion, make more money, I'm gonna work harder, I'm gonna work on the weekends.

So that is a person who thinks that if I just have more money, it will solve everything. If I could just get that promotion, make more money, I'm gonna work harder, I'm gonna work on the weekends.

I'm gonna do all of that to make more money.

I'm gonna do all of that to make more money.

And for that, one of the downfalls could be that you make more money, you tend to not have as strong a relationships with family because you spend so much time working and you can create debt.

And for that, one of the downfalls could be that you make more money, you tend to not have as strong a relationships with family because you spend so much time working and you can create debt.

So that one is also a tough one as well.

So that one is also a tough one as well.

Money status, money status.

Money status, money status.

So that's a person where they tie their self worth to their net worth.

So that's a person where they tie their self worth to their net worth.

So that is the.

So that is the.

Flashy You're on social media, you got the latest everything, keeping up with the Joneses. You're really looking to money to create your identity.

Flashy You're on social media, you got the latest everything, keeping up with the Joneses. You're really looking to money to create your identity.

I am really turned off by that. And anyway, money vigilance, I.

I am really turned off by that. And anyway, money vigilance, I.

Think this is the one that you are, Katie, So money vigilance. This person is of the four money personalities. They're a little bit better with money, but you tend to save, You're a bit more frugal. The bad end of that one is that you can tend to oversave and not enjoy money as much, and it can create anxiety and stress because you're always worried about if you have enough money.

Think this is the one that you are, Katie, So money vigilance. This person is of the four money personalities. They're a little bit better with money, but you tend to save, You're a bit more frugal. The bad end of that one is that you can tend to oversave and not enjoy money as much, and it can create anxiety and stress because you're always worried about if you have enough money.

All right, we both took the test, and you are, in fact a money worshiper.

All right, we both took the test, and you are, in fact a money worshiper.

I am.

I am.

I am a money worshiper. And for me with understanding my own financial health and wellness, seeing that show up in my life as an adult, and being able to address it so that my kids have a different money story.

I am a money worshiper. And for me with understanding my own financial health and wellness, seeing that show up in my life as an adult, and being able to address it so that my kids have a different money story.

And so how are your kids different than you, and how are you helping them shape attitudes that will lead to financial help throughout their lives.

And so how are your kids different than you, and how are you helping them shape attitudes that will lead to financial help throughout their lives.

So I have a fourteen year old son and a six year old daughter who will be angry if I don't give her the six and a half because she has a birthday coming. But for my son, one of the great things about my career at ally is that I've been able to take my son on this journey.

So I have a fourteen year old son and a six year old daughter who will be angry if I don't give her the six and a half because she has a birthday coming. But for my son, one of the great things about my career at ally is that I've been able to take my son on this journey.

I think when I started working here he was about two years old. So my career at.

I think when I started working here he was about two years old. So my career at.

Ally, I've created financial literacy, children's books, I've created magic shows that talk about money, and my son has been a part of that journey since he was little. So now at fourteen, he's very mature when it comes to the conversation of money. He understands that you have to spend, save, and give. We created little buckets where he would put money in the bucket based off of spend, se give when he would get his allowance. And we've been doing that since he was about six years old. And now he is able to use the things that I've taught him in a play. But I think the big thing with your kids is making sure that they're a part of a conversation, you know. I think the big difference between my parents and some other parents is that we didn't talk about money. We didn't have those conversations at the dinner table. We didn't talk about investing or saving. Money was looked at as a really a tool to buy things versus an asset that we can use to create more assets. And with my son, I'm trying to teach him something different so that he's more vigilant with his money and uses it as a tool to build. And my daughter, I'm working on her. She's just we just got her started on the allowance.

Ally, I've created financial literacy, children's books, I've created magic shows that talk about money, and my son has been a part of that journey since he was little. So now at fourteen, he's very mature when it comes to the conversation of money. He understands that you have to spend, save, and give. We created little buckets where he would put money in the bucket based off of spend, se give when he would get his allowance. And we've been doing that since he was about six years old. And now he is able to use the things that I've taught him in a play. But I think the big thing with your kids is making sure that they're a part of a conversation, you know. I think the big difference between my parents and some other parents is that we didn't talk about money. We didn't have those conversations at the dinner table. We didn't talk about investing or saving. Money was looked at as a really a tool to buy things versus an asset that we can use to create more assets. And with my son, I'm trying to teach him something different so that he's more vigilant with his money and uses it as a tool to build. And my daughter, I'm working on her. She's just we just got her started on the allowance.

How do you work on these issues so you can really turn a switch in your brain and change your attitudes towards money for the better.

How do you work on these issues so you can really turn a switch in your brain and change your attitudes towards money for the better.

I think the first thing is realizing that it even exists. So what you've done, Katie, just with this first step of understanding your money personality, realizing that you may have some subconscious beliefs that show up in your daily life. I would encourage you to go home and journal about it. Journal about some of those first memories, the beliefs that you have, and then from there, once you journal, journal about it and understand the impact that it has on you today, create a different money mantra. So for you, it may be in the past, I've felt that we didn't have enough. I feel that you shouldn't spend money on expensive things. It may be now that I have enough, I can spend money on things that I budget for.

I think the first thing is realizing that it even exists. So what you've done, Katie, just with this first step of understanding your money personality, realizing that you may have some subconscious beliefs that show up in your daily life. I would encourage you to go home and journal about it. Journal about some of those first memories, the beliefs that you have, and then from there, once you journal, journal about it and understand the impact that it has on you today, create a different money mantra. So for you, it may be in the past, I've felt that we didn't have enough. I feel that you shouldn't spend money on expensive things. It may be now that I have enough, I can spend money on things that I budget for.

Tell me how our money stories impact our adult relationships, whether it's with our partners, our bosses, our kids, our family.

Tell me how our money stories impact our adult relationships, whether it's with our partners, our bosses, our kids, our family.

I find this idea of your money story and your financial health and wellness for relationships, specifically for couples, fascinating because oftentimes you will attract your opposite. So I'm recently divorced, but when I was married, read my husband was very frugal and I'm.

I find this idea of your money story and your financial health and wellness for relationships, specifically for couples, fascinating because oftentimes you will attract your opposite. So I'm recently divorced, but when I was married, read my husband was very frugal and I'm.

A spender, so for our relationship.

A spender, so for our relationship.

We were attracted to each other because I gave him a little bit of like, let's have some fun, and he gave me a little bit of a structure. Where the issues can come in. Is not realizing the money story of your partner. So in his eyes, I may have looked at been looked upon as irresponsible, or she just wants to have fun, whatever, you know, she's not serious about money. So I think oftentimes in our relationships, by not understanding the money story or the money history of the people around you, it creates this space for judgment, It creates a space for shame. When you can unpack those things, it creates more empathy.

We were attracted to each other because I gave him a little bit of like, let's have some fun, and he gave me a little bit of a structure. Where the issues can come in. Is not realizing the money story of your partner. So in his eyes, I may have looked at been looked upon as irresponsible, or she just wants to have fun, whatever, you know, she's not serious about money. So I think oftentimes in our relationships, by not understanding the money story or the money history of the people around you, it creates this space for judgment, It creates a space for shame. When you can unpack those things, it creates more empathy.

And I think it would.

And I think it would.

Help a lot of marriages if we were to have this as a part of marital counselor before you got married. It's crazy because when I think about the time when I was getting married, you.

Help a lot of marriages if we were to have this as a part of marital counselor before you got married. It's crazy because when I think about the time when I was getting married, you.

Just want to get married.

Just want to get married.

You're in love, and you want to have a big wedding and all these things. You're not having those conversations about the soft and higher skills of money. People are avoiding those conversations because they may be ashamed, and it just it could be uncomfortable it's a different level of love when you talk about money.

You're in love, and you want to have a big wedding and all these things. You're not having those conversations about the soft and higher skills of money. People are avoiding those conversations because they may be ashamed, and it just it could be uncomfortable it's a different level of love when you talk about money.

Thirty eight percent of marriages split up for precisely this reason. They don't see eye to eye on financial issues.

Thirty eight percent of marriages split up for precisely this reason. They don't see eye to eye on financial issues.

That's exactly it.

That's exactly it.

And oftentimes with marriages you think of infidelity, right, there's sexual infidelity, emotional infidelity, but there's also financial infidelity.

And oftentimes with marriages you think of infidelity, right, there's sexual infidelity, emotional infidelity, but there's also financial infidelity.

And what that means is.

And what that means is.

Those moments where you keep a secret about money from your partner or your hiding accounts. It's really being dishonest about money, and I think it shows up in a lot of marriages and contributes to the lack of trust and stability in a relationship.

Those moments where you keep a secret about money from your partner or your hiding accounts. It's really being dishonest about money, and I think it shows up in a lot of marriages and contributes to the lack of trust and stability in a relationship.

Let me ask you a question about money and how things have changed today. Thirty point six percent of women made more money than their husbands. That's up from twenty three percent in two thousand and sixteen percent in nineteen eighty one. I'm curious how that has impacted relationships because when I got married and started making more money than my husband, who subsequently passed away, I think it created some tension in our relationship.

Let me ask you a question about money and how things have changed today. Thirty point six percent of women made more money than their husbands. That's up from twenty three percent in two thousand and sixteen percent in nineteen eighty one. I'm curious how that has impacted relationships because when I got married and started making more money than my husband, who subsequently passed away, I think it created some tension in our relationship.

I think it has really shifted the stories that we have about money, conflict within relationships, how we talk about money, and really forced us to look at old stereotypes about money and gender roles and forced us to really look at.

I think it has really shifted the stories that we have about money, conflict within relationships, how we talk about money, and really forced us to look at old stereotypes about money and gender roles and forced us to really look at.

What is the legacy we want to create for our children.

What is the legacy we want to create for our children.

Right, So for my daughter, I want her to grow up and know that she can grow up and be whatever she wants and have a career and do all those things the same thing that my mother did. So it's really opening up this conversation about money of making sure that the.

Right, So for my daughter, I want her to grow up and know that she can grow up and be whatever she wants and have a career and do all those things the same thing that my mother did. So it's really opening up this conversation about money of making sure that the.

Roles have support. So if you're our working mom, making.

Roles have support. So if you're our working mom, making.

Sure you get that support outside of the home, and then when it comes to money, ensuring that the couple is on the same page with reaching their financial goals.

Sure you get that support outside of the home, and then when it comes to money, ensuring that the couple is on the same page with reaching their financial goals.

Women need to really understand their finances much more than they do. Is that changing.

Women need to really understand their finances much more than they do. Is that changing.

The conversation has changed, But as women, we also have to take responsibility for our money. Take responsibility for the things that you're invested in, even if it's through your four oh one k at work, Understanding the accounts that your family has, going through your estate plan. So I'm working on my updated estate plan now post divorce, and it's hard. I think we avoid these things because they're tough conversations and it's easy to pass it off to somebody else. Funny enough, so during my money story journey with Ally, I use our advisors here. My biggest fear that came up for me is being a poor old lady. And I think what comes up is that women often live longer than men. We're not a part of the money conversations, so we have this fear that the money will run out. So how much money do I actually need to live to be ninety five? You need to know that, and you need to create a savings and investing plan to help you to ensure that you'll be okay. You'll be covered and also not only be covered, but be able to leave a legacy for your children, a legacy within the community.

The conversation has changed, But as women, we also have to take responsibility for our money. Take responsibility for the things that you're invested in, even if it's through your four oh one k at work, Understanding the accounts that your family has, going through your estate plan. So I'm working on my updated estate plan now post divorce, and it's hard. I think we avoid these things because they're tough conversations and it's easy to pass it off to somebody else. Funny enough, so during my money story journey with Ally, I use our advisors here. My biggest fear that came up for me is being a poor old lady. And I think what comes up is that women often live longer than men. We're not a part of the money conversations, so we have this fear that the money will run out. So how much money do I actually need to live to be ninety five? You need to know that, and you need to create a savings and investing plan to help you to ensure that you'll be okay. You'll be covered and also not only be covered, but be able to leave a legacy for your children, a legacy within the community.

When we come back, we'll be joined by Kirsten and Julian Saunders. They have some great advice about how couples can navigate hard conversations about money. Let's bring in Kirsten and Julian Saunders into this conversation, the founders of and Regular and they have their own money story to tell. I thought it was so interesting Juliane and Kirsten that thirty eight percent of marriages and over arguments about money. So you have been able to successfully navigate your different approaches and attitudes and philosophies about money. How were you able to do that and was anybody hurt in the process.

When we come back, we'll be joined by Kirsten and Julian Saunders. They have some great advice about how couples can navigate hard conversations about money. Let's bring in Kirsten and Julian Saunders into this conversation, the founders of and Regular and they have their own money story to tell. I thought it was so interesting Juliane and Kirsten that thirty eight percent of marriages and over arguments about money. So you have been able to successfully navigate your different approaches and attitudes and philosophies about money. How were you able to do that and was anybody hurt in the process.

Yeah, I think the first thing was just coming to grips with that stat. We saw that stat when we got engaged, and we were, you know, thinking about how we're going to do premarital counseling or do we want to do like a joint therapy, But we decided that we knew the number one reason that people were getting divorced or at least having arguments in a marriage was around money, and we wanted to take that one off the table for us. We were like, if we're going to have an issue, is going to be with thing number two, three, or four, not not about money. And so when we both committed to that, that was a kind of a sauce or a secret weapon in our marriage.

Yeah, I think the first thing was just coming to grips with that stat. We saw that stat when we got engaged, and we were, you know, thinking about how we're going to do premarital counseling or do we want to do like a joint therapy, But we decided that we knew the number one reason that people were getting divorced or at least having arguments in a marriage was around money, and we wanted to take that one off the table for us. We were like, if we're going to have an issue, is going to be with thing number two, three, or four, not not about money. And so when we both committed to that, that was a kind of a sauce or a secret weapon in our marriage.

So, Julian, your first argument was over credit card debt, right, Yeah.

So, Julian, your first argument was over credit card debt, right, Yeah.

Well it wasn't just our first argument. It was our very first open conversation about money. I mean, we met at work and we decided to take a trip. Shortly after a meeting, things were going really well, and we said, why not step our foot on the gas, And so we literally took a vacation and we hang back. We spent a lot of money, and when we came back, I sort of decided that, you know, all right, it's time to kind of jump back into the regular way of doing things, which is, you know, cutting back and being mindflow of the budget, especially knowing how much we just spent, and she wanted to go ahead and keep the party going. She wanted to literally celebrate the fact that we'd just taken a vacation. And long story short, you know, it kind of came to a head and I said some words that I have come to regret in some ways. But I told her, you know, after learning that she already had credit card debt and that vacation was building on top of that, that if I knew she had that, that I would not have dated her. And the reason why I said that, even though I know that that's a horrible thing to say looking back, because I had had really, really bad experiences dealing with my own debt, I felt like that was actually the righteous and responsible thing to do. But obviously, now that I've had some time to reflect on it, it was very rude and sensitive.

Well it wasn't just our first argument. It was our very first open conversation about money. I mean, we met at work and we decided to take a trip. Shortly after a meeting, things were going really well, and we said, why not step our foot on the gas, And so we literally took a vacation and we hang back. We spent a lot of money, and when we came back, I sort of decided that, you know, all right, it's time to kind of jump back into the regular way of doing things, which is, you know, cutting back and being mindflow of the budget, especially knowing how much we just spent, and she wanted to go ahead and keep the party going. She wanted to literally celebrate the fact that we'd just taken a vacation. And long story short, you know, it kind of came to a head and I said some words that I have come to regret in some ways. But I told her, you know, after learning that she already had credit card debt and that vacation was building on top of that, that if I knew she had that, that I would not have dated her. And the reason why I said that, even though I know that that's a horrible thing to say looking back, because I had had really, really bad experiences dealing with my own debt, I felt like that was actually the righteous and responsible thing to do. But obviously, now that I've had some time to reflect on it, it was very rude and sensitive.

So I must admit I'm a big fan of your book Cashing Out, and on that part, I have it on audible. When you said I'm done dating, I was like, oh, no, he did not do that to her.

So I must admit I'm a big fan of your book Cashing Out, and on that part, I have it on audible. When you said I'm done dating, I was like, oh, no, he did not do that to her.

What is he doing?

What is he doing?

So, Kirsten, I know in the book you both were able to dig into your perspectives of money, and Katie and I actually talked about our money stories earlier. Both of you come from very different backgrounds, which means you have very different money stories. Can you share your money story and let us know how it impacts your relationship today?

So, Kirsten, I know in the book you both were able to dig into your perspectives of money, and Katie and I actually talked about our money stories earlier. Both of you come from very different backgrounds, which means you have very different money stories. Can you share your money story and let us know how it impacts your relationship today?

Yeah, we were, as you said, born on two different sides of the track. I grew up pretty traditional, middle class, two parent household here in Atlanta. On top of that, I was a church girl, and so a lot of the early teachings that I had about life were faith based. I believed in things like abundance. I believed in faith the size of a mustard seed. And so that's what I would default to when he would ask these very specific questions about my religion. I would just be like God got me, Like, no, there's no limit to what's possible, instead of understanding that it requires work as well.

Yeah, we were, as you said, born on two different sides of the track. I grew up pretty traditional, middle class, two parent household here in Atlanta. On top of that, I was a church girl, and so a lot of the early teachings that I had about life were faith based. I believed in things like abundance. I believed in faith the size of a mustard seed. And so that's what I would default to when he would ask these very specific questions about my religion. I would just be like God got me, Like, no, there's no limit to what's possible, instead of understanding that it requires work as well.

It still requires a plan.

It still requires a plan.

And so when we had our first conversation about money, and he was asking, like, how do you expect to pay for this vacation. I was very clear, like through credit cards. I thought that was normal. I didn't know that you're supposed to pay the credit card off every month or I thought that was like an option. I didn't think that was like the best practice.

And so when we had our first conversation about money, and he was asking, like, how do you expect to pay for this vacation. I was very clear, like through credit cards. I thought that was normal. I didn't know that you're supposed to pay the credit card off every month or I thought that was like an option. I didn't think that was like the best practice.

Yeah, and my story is different, right, so we kind of frame it up as in her story as a version of the Huxtables or the Cosby Show, and mine was more like a Jamaican version of good times, Like it was hard. And I grew up in nineteen eighties Brooklyn, New York, and it was a very different Brooklyn than you see today. And so my mom worked in Manhattan, and so I remember there were times we'd go up on the roof, not my mom but just me being a young kid, and you go up on the roof and you would see Manhattan. It was like, oh, that's where the money is, Like there's money over there. But it just felt like it was like mythical, right, it was almost like from being honest, you just take pride in that, like your ability to survive and your ability to stress a dollar and your ability to get by but you learn pretty quickly that that only gets you so far, and especially when it comes to relationships, that mentality can actually get in the way because you do actually need money to nurture relationships, not just romantic relationships, but familiar relationships and just social friendships and so on.

Yeah, and my story is different, right, so we kind of frame it up as in her story as a version of the Huxtables or the Cosby Show, and mine was more like a Jamaican version of good times, Like it was hard. And I grew up in nineteen eighties Brooklyn, New York, and it was a very different Brooklyn than you see today. And so my mom worked in Manhattan, and so I remember there were times we'd go up on the roof, not my mom but just me being a young kid, and you go up on the roof and you would see Manhattan. It was like, oh, that's where the money is, Like there's money over there. But it just felt like it was like mythical, right, it was almost like from being honest, you just take pride in that, like your ability to survive and your ability to stress a dollar and your ability to get by but you learn pretty quickly that that only gets you so far, and especially when it comes to relationships, that mentality can actually get in the way because you do actually need money to nurture relationships, not just romantic relationships, but familiar relationships and just social friendships and so on.

So fascinating, isn't it, Jack? And also the idea of like Julian, I would imagine your mantra was never living beyond your means, while Kirsten's was always living beyond your means because you could pay for it. You could enjoy it now and pay for it later.

So fascinating, isn't it, Jack? And also the idea of like Julian, I would imagine your mantra was never living beyond your means, while Kirsten's was always living beyond your means because you could pay for it. You could enjoy it now and pay for it later.

That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Jack.

That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Jack.

I'm curious when you hear these stories, do you think, oh my god, these two it's a recipe for disaster.

I'm curious when you hear these stories, do you think, oh my god, these two it's a recipe for disaster.

No, you know what it is. Yes, it does sound like acid.

No, you know what it is. Yes, it does sound like acid.

And if you read the book and you hear how firm he was with her on that on having dead, it'll blow your mind. But I'm curious, you know you were able to get to a place so early in your relationship Julian of addressing the money conversation, which is often so taboo in society and relationships in general, how did you both get to a place of being able to have that conversation and Kirsten for you being able to receive it and move forward.

And if you read the book and you hear how firm he was with her on that on having dead, it'll blow your mind. But I'm curious, you know you were able to get to a place so early in your relationship Julian of addressing the money conversation, which is often so taboo in society and relationships in general, how did you both get to a place of being able to have that conversation and Kirsten for you being able to receive it and move forward.

Yeah. So first I would say it's just love, right, like there was an undeniable love and an attraction there. And the second part, I would say it was bewildering because I was just so confused as to why I was so willing to throw away something that I really really loved it, enjoy out of this deeprooted fear. And so luckily the sort of rational part of my brain was like, like, why would you do that? Why would you throw that away?

Yeah. So first I would say it's just love, right, like there was an undeniable love and an attraction there. And the second part, I would say it was bewildering because I was just so confused as to why I was so willing to throw away something that I really really loved it, enjoy out of this deeprooted fear. And so luckily the sort of rational part of my brain was like, like, why would you do that? Why would you throw that away?

And Kirsten to follow up, Yeah, what Jack asked, how were you able to receive it and not be defensive and you know, reject Julian because he was so different than you were in terms of his attitudes.

And Kirsten to follow up, Yeah, what Jack asked, how were you able to receive it and not be defensive and you know, reject Julian because he was so different than you were in terms of his attitudes.

Thank you for putting in nice, so different, so different.

Thank you for putting in nice, so different, so different.

Well, I think this is where the other side of the faith coin comes in. I knew that there needed to be grace there for him and for me, and I actually was quite defensive, and that was my first indicator that like, maybe he was right, because I think when people get defensive, they tend to think that they're standing up for themselves or defending themselves, because you don't get defensive when you think somebody is wrong. When somebody's wrong, you're like, whatever, that's crazy, Like that's crazy talk. You get defensive when you feel that they may be kind of right, Like you get defensive when it's like, ooh, that's stung a little bit. You saw something in me that I kind of believe myself that I know I know better, but I'm doing this differently. And so when I took that time to actually kind of audit my behaviors, look at how reckless or loose I was being with my finances, I was like, he kind of has a point.

Well, I think this is where the other side of the faith coin comes in. I knew that there needed to be grace there for him and for me, and I actually was quite defensive, and that was my first indicator that like, maybe he was right, because I think when people get defensive, they tend to think that they're standing up for themselves or defending themselves, because you don't get defensive when you think somebody is wrong. When somebody's wrong, you're like, whatever, that's crazy, Like that's crazy talk. You get defensive when you feel that they may be kind of right, Like you get defensive when it's like, ooh, that's stung a little bit. You saw something in me that I kind of believe myself that I know I know better, but I'm doing this differently. And so when I took that time to actually kind of audit my behaviors, look at how reckless or loose I was being with my finances, I was like, he kind of has a point.

I'd like to ask all three of you a question, and that is how much tension now arises between spouses or partners because so many more women are working, and that means in some cases, women are out earning their husbands. And I think in some traditional marriages, or if like the husband didn't have a working mom, that can sometimes be an affront to their manhood in some ways, even if it's subconsciously so, that can create all kinds of issues in a marriage, can it not.

I'd like to ask all three of you a question, and that is how much tension now arises between spouses or partners because so many more women are working, and that means in some cases, women are out earning their husbands. And I think in some traditional marriages, or if like the husband didn't have a working mom, that can sometimes be an affront to their manhood in some ways, even if it's subconsciously so, that can create all kinds of issues in a marriage, can it not.

We see that and hear that all the time. I think there's two sides of that coin. On the one hand, because women are more likely to be breadwinners than they were before, it's giving way for men to be more active fathers and take paternity leave and perhaps opt into being a stay at home dad and get the breaks from their career that they desire. But on the other hand, women are learning what it feels like to have the power of being the breadwinner, and there's some fumbling along the way. We're hearing a lot of people either coming into the realization that they need a plan, a lot of women specifically coming into the realization that they need a plan. Even when you look at pre nups, the leading cohort, leading generation of prenups are millennial women asking for them, requesting them, making sure that that's the foundation of their marriage. Because this idea very similar to jobs, which has gone through a similar cultural transition. This idea that something is forever ever is becoming less and less statistically relevant, and so protecting yourself going in is more important now than it was before. And then the same it's just true with divorcing. We hear from a lot of women who are basically starting over. They lost a great bit of their savings and divorce. A lot of the conversations that we have are about encouraging people to leave the shame behind and start to tell the story so that other people can learn and so that we socially can make some of these conversations and these decisions more normalized as the future, as future generations continue to get married.

We see that and hear that all the time. I think there's two sides of that coin. On the one hand, because women are more likely to be breadwinners than they were before, it's giving way for men to be more active fathers and take paternity leave and perhaps opt into being a stay at home dad and get the breaks from their career that they desire. But on the other hand, women are learning what it feels like to have the power of being the breadwinner, and there's some fumbling along the way. We're hearing a lot of people either coming into the realization that they need a plan, a lot of women specifically coming into the realization that they need a plan. Even when you look at pre nups, the leading cohort, leading generation of prenups are millennial women asking for them, requesting them, making sure that that's the foundation of their marriage. Because this idea very similar to jobs, which has gone through a similar cultural transition. This idea that something is forever ever is becoming less and less statistically relevant, and so protecting yourself going in is more important now than it was before. And then the same it's just true with divorcing. We hear from a lot of women who are basically starting over. They lost a great bit of their savings and divorce. A lot of the conversations that we have are about encouraging people to leave the shame behind and start to tell the story so that other people can learn and so that we socially can make some of these conversations and these decisions more normalized as the future, as future generations continue to get married.

We're almost out of time, but I want to ask you all about how you deal with financial disagreements, because nobody's perfect, and I'm sure you occasionally don't see eye to eye on financial issues. And since it's the cause of so much marital strife, you have figured out a way to get through things when you have a disagreement. So let's talk about those. One is Elmo. What does that mean? So?

We're almost out of time, but I want to ask you all about how you deal with financial disagreements, because nobody's perfect, and I'm sure you occasionally don't see eye to eye on financial issues. And since it's the cause of so much marital strife, you have figured out a way to get through things when you have a disagreement. So let's talk about those. One is Elmo. What does that mean? So?

Elmo is an acronym for enough, let's move on. And we actually so when our son was little, used to have an Elmo doll that we just put on the table, like okay, Elmo. Because there's a way of talking around a subjects so much that you lose the plot and we forget what we're talking about. And so sometimes we'll get into keeping score, bringing up old stuff, adding in other stories from other people, and if it's not productive. We'll just say okay, Elmo and move on to the next thing.

Elmo is an acronym for enough, let's move on. And we actually so when our son was little, used to have an Elmo doll that we just put on the table, like okay, Elmo. Because there's a way of talking around a subjects so much that you lose the plot and we forget what we're talking about. And so sometimes we'll get into keeping score, bringing up old stuff, adding in other stories from other people, and if it's not productive. We'll just say okay, Elmo and move on to the next thing.

You also have, tell me more. That's the opposite of Elmo.

You also have, tell me more. That's the opposite of Elmo.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it is.

But it was clearly a rule that was designed for me or people like me. But it's really just a way to ensure that you are inviting your partner into a conversation about money, giving them room or space to explore their idea. And you're basically just when they ask for that crazy thing or bring up that crazy thing, tell me more. And by the third or fourth tell me more. By the time you get to the third or fourth thing, they bother talk themselves out of it, or they've brought up a red line point. Yeah. And it's just creates an environment where I think you are inviting someone else to share their point of view, as opposed to saying, nope, here's my heart fast rule. It's not in a budget. I'm gonna shut this thing down. Because reality is, these things are natural. You're gonna have ideas, You're gonna have temptations, and I think everyone deserves an opportunity to explore them.

But it was clearly a rule that was designed for me or people like me. But it's really just a way to ensure that you are inviting your partner into a conversation about money, giving them room or space to explore their idea. And you're basically just when they ask for that crazy thing or bring up that crazy thing, tell me more. And by the third or fourth tell me more. By the time you get to the third or fourth thing, they bother talk themselves out of it, or they've brought up a red line point. Yeah. And it's just creates an environment where I think you are inviting someone else to share their point of view, as opposed to saying, nope, here's my heart fast rule. It's not in a budget. I'm gonna shut this thing down. Because reality is, these things are natural. You're gonna have ideas, You're gonna have temptations, and I think everyone deserves an opportunity to explore them.

I see your son walking in the background, so cute. And by the way, I love I love your safe word too, you have to come up with that.

I see your son walking in the background, so cute. And by the way, I love I love your safe word too, you have to come up with that.

Yeah, So this was a way because I'm the more conflict averse one in the group, and so this was a way for me to exit a conversation or say I need a pause before things got even more escalated. If I needed to collect myself emotionally, we would come up with this safe word. And our safe word is donuts. And so in the middle of a conversation, I can say, like, yo, donuts, I'm done talking about this. I don't want to cry right now, like I'm too emotional, Like donuts, let's just revisit this next week. And it's so slight, it's in the middle of a sentence, but it's enough to be like.

Yeah, So this was a way because I'm the more conflict averse one in the group, and so this was a way for me to exit a conversation or say I need a pause before things got even more escalated. If I needed to collect myself emotionally, we would come up with this safe word. And our safe word is donuts. And so in the middle of a conversation, I can say, like, yo, donuts, I'm done talking about this. I don't want to cry right now, like I'm too emotional, Like donuts, let's just revisit this next week. And it's so slight, it's in the middle of a sentence, but it's enough to be like.

All right.

All right.

I really admire the work that both of you have put into allowing communication, getting to know each other's stories. If more people were doing what they're doing, we could save a lot of marriages of just having the conversation and loving each other. I think you mentioned that earlier, Julian, like, you have this person that you love, so why would you let money come in between it when it's something that definitely can be navigated.

I really admire the work that both of you have put into allowing communication, getting to know each other's stories. If more people were doing what they're doing, we could save a lot of marriages of just having the conversation and loving each other. I think you mentioned that earlier, Julian, like, you have this person that you love, so why would you let money come in between it when it's something that definitely can be navigated.

So kudos to both of you. Thank you for being an example. It's taken me a.

So kudos to both of you. Thank you for being an example. It's taken me a.

While to get to where I am. I didn't just come out the womb knowing how to deal with money. We know that, so given everybody that grace. It's something that we have to keep in mind and keeping the communication open. All of that is needed, slowing down conversations about money.

While to get to where I am. I didn't just come out the womb knowing how to deal with money. We know that, so given everybody that grace. It's something that we have to keep in mind and keeping the communication open. All of that is needed, slowing down conversations about money.

Also having your boundaries around money.

Also having your boundaries around money.

These are all things when we mentioned earlier of having a plan in the beginning, what are your values around money, what are your non negotiables, and sharing that with your family in a very kind and understanding way. I think that's how you set up those boundaries and get everybody on the same page and they secretly will learn from you in that process.

These are all things when we mentioned earlier of having a plan in the beginning, what are your values around money, what are your non negotiables, and sharing that with your family in a very kind and understanding way. I think that's how you set up those boundaries and get everybody on the same page and they secretly will learn from you in that process.

Well, this was so fun. I've learned so much. I've really loved getting to know you all virtually. Jacqueline aka Jack, and Julian and Kirsten, thank you so much for spending time with us. This was really interesting. I know my money story. I'm money vigilance.

Well, this was so fun. I've learned so much. I've really loved getting to know you all virtually. Jacqueline aka Jack, and Julian and Kirsten, thank you so much for spending time with us. This was really interesting. I know my money story. I'm money vigilance.

I love that.

I love that.

In other words, I'm cheap frue goal. I prefer frugal to cheat anyway, Thank you all so much. This was really a great conversation.

In other words, I'm cheap frue goal. I prefer frugal to cheat anyway, Thank you all so much. This was really a great conversation.

I so appreciate it you take care.

I so appreciate it you take care.

Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me or want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two by five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Meet, Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me or want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short message at six oh nine five point two by five oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Meet, Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.