Hi everyone, It's Katie Kuric and welcome to Next Question. Love E A. G. I. E. Jones is a writer, a speaker, and the author of two best selling books, I'm Judging You That Do Better Manual and her latest professional troublemaker, The Fear Fighting Manual. I call my book manifestos like life manifestos, kind of essay collections that are based in lessons that I know that if we take them on, we will be better for it. Love These books, like Lovey herself, are trying to help the rest of us do better for ourselves and in turn, the people around us. And let me tell you, this is one of the most inspiring conversations I've had. Lovey imparts her wisdom and drops some seriously sage thought gems. We're always looking for Superman to save the day, and I'm like, we all have red capes. New levels come with new devils. We've got to use our power for each other, not against it, and shred the machine. That's just a taste. There is a lot more where that came from. I hope you have a pen and paper with you, because your Lovey lesson starts now. Lovey, I think a lot of listeners probably have heard of you and know who you are. But there are some people listening to this podcast it might be thinking, who's lovey? So why don't you give us your bio? And two minutes are less love e I'm love you Jai Jones and I am a New York Times Best On author, a speaker, a digital strategists, a lover of shoes uh, a Nigerian girl, and a Chicagoan. I am a graduate of the Universe of Illinois. Shout out to the fighting at line. I my degrees in psychology, which I thought I was going to actually practice, but I still love the idea of like how the human mind works, So maybe one day I can still do something related to it. And then what I'll My favorite color is red. I eat rice almost every day, and um, I'm obsessed with hats and blazers. Tell us how you got from uh psychology nature? And in a way, I think your work does explore the human mind, because I think you're very emotionally intelligent, and you connect with people and you see trends and all those things. I think take a certain knowledge of psychology. But how did you get to where you are today? A writer, A speaker, a thought leader really in many ways. Yeah, So eighteen years ago I started my first blog. It was my freshman year in college. My friend's peer pressure into doing it. They were like, we're getting weblogs, That's what it was called back then. So I got one, and I chronicled my college career and you know whatever, undergrad shenanigans. I was going through exams. I was getting decent because I actually thought I was gonna be a doctor. So starting in college my major psychology premed. I ended up getting a d my first semester in chemistry, first and last year of my academic career, and I dropped that premed very quickly. I was like, nope, nope, I'm not supposed to be a doctor. I don't even like hospitals. So graduated from college, deleted the college blog, and started awesomely lovey dot com, the blog that I still have today. Um and instead of talking about my life, I was talking about the world as I saw it, TV, regular randomness, race, politics, anything I really felt like. And I was working full time as a marketing coordinator for a nonprofit. So I'd go to work nine to five and I come home and blog, which is this really nice hobby that I had um well, that hobby won its first award in two thousand and nine, and I got laid off my marketing job in two thousand ten April. Tents almost been eleven years, and I basically never had a chance to get another job because it was basically like the universe, and Gud pointed me towards You're supposed to be using your words to make people feel joy, make them think critically, and compel them to take actions that leaves this world better than they found it. So I was doing marketing and branding consulting for small businesses as I looked for other jobs. I still looked for other jobs because I was like, no, no, you need to go find yourself a full time job. You need a four O one K and your shoe habit needs some supporting. So I was still looking for jobs and sending resumes. I actually found out I was still sending out resumes up until like November. But I was, you know, doing what I love really writing and and social strategy and digital strategy. But I basically never had a chance to get another job because clearly I was supposed to be working for myself doing this under my own entity. UM. I came up with my first book, Idea, and it was after I was plagiarized by a journal lists who took three paragraphs of my work dropped it in his without any credit to me, and he emailed me after I went in. He emailed me. It was like I didn't know. I wasn't supposed to do that. And I remember saying, is there not a limited edition handbook on how not to be terrible at being humans? And that is what led me to writing and I'm judging you to do better manual UM, which end up coming out in It hit the New York Times list instantly. That changed my life in my career, and then Shonda Rhymes optioned it. Yes, Yes, Shanda optioned it when she was at ABC Studios. And it just was this thing that really got me to be in rooms that I didn't even know existed. A year later, I did a TED talk called Getting Comfortable with Being Uncomfortable. I realized comfort is overrated because being quiet, it's comfortable, keeping things the way they've been. It's comfortable, and all comfort has done is maintained the status quote. So we've got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable by speaking these hard truths when they're necessary. And I the talk point viral had a million views in the month, and that talk now has I think five point six million views. Another career changer, and that talk is what led me to write my new book, my latest book, Professional Troublemaker, The Fear Fighter Manual, which just debuted at three on the New York Times list. So that was that was exciting, And so yeah, my path is a series of moments that I didn't necessarily plan that led to something greater, being open to the universe and where it takes you, which is obviously what you did, Lovey. And I want to talk about the new book book, but I do want to mention the other book, the previous book. I'm I'm judging you that you better manual. When people say what are these books, what do you say, Lovey? They are part memoir because I usually tell stories of myself, because I put myself in the middle of my writing to make sure that I am not making myself self exceptional, that I am a guide instead of an expert in this whole thing. And my books don't take themselves so seriously because I don't take myself so seriously. So I'll talk through what I've learned. I'll make you laugh while you're reading it, um and hopefully make an idea that you've heard before stick better, Like what giv me an example of that? Lovely? So think about imposter syndrome, which we've heard a thousand times, right, I think impostor syndrome is you're putting on them. You're feeling like you're wearing a mask that you've not earned, or you're wearing a coat that does not belong to you. And I think about the moments when we're all in rooms that feel like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm here, and imposter syndrome comes roaring back, and I'm like, you know, spend less time being worried about how you've made it in the room, spend more time saying, well, I am here, so I'm to make sure I bring value to the room. Imposter syndrome can be a driver, not a stunter. Right, if we let it stunt us will let us say. It will make us say no to yes opportunities. You know, if we let it drive us, it will make us say yes. I might not feel like I'm ready, but I'll be ready, so I'm gonna be better at my craft. I'll make sure I'm working hard. I will make sure I'm being authentically myself, and that way I won't feel like I'm wearing a mask in that room. Sometimes, though, I think you have imposter syndrome when you feel like everyone is at a certain level and you're not right. So how do you I think there's a real confidence barrier to figuring out, well, what can I get to this room and not worrying about why you're there? How do you break through really convincing yourself that what you say is worth hearing? Mm hmm, So I really I have to put in the perspective of we are often thinking everybody else's extraordinary, but us right, We're thinking the person who's in the room, who looks like they're really comfortable in the room, never had a fear, but they did too. They might even have a fear right then and there, So normalizing the idea that we're actually all walking around with all these silent fears, and then also affirming yourself in knowing that your story, in your words, are no less valid than anybody else in the room, that in itself as a practice. You know, why is somebody else's story more valid than yours? Why why should they be more important than yours? There are no no real extraordinary people to me. I think we see extraordinary people and they're really ordinary people who decided to do something over and over again. It's stuck, right, So people aren't born extraordinary where I mean, there are some people with extraordinary gifts, But I don't think you're just born extraordinary and then one day everybody knows your name. There are a lot of extraordinarily gifted people whose names we don't know because they didn't practice it out loud, you know, who didn't show their art. So I'm always thinking the people who are in those rooms that you might want to be in, think about the fact that they just happened to do something over and over again enough to where somebody said, all right, I see you, I'm gonna ask you in here. So what is the thing that you just have to commit to doing over and over again if you want to be in the rooms that you are seeing everybody else in More with the Professional Troublemaker in Just a Moment. Your book is called Professional Troublemaker, The Fear Fighter Manual and I wanted you to define what a troublemaker is, but first what a troublemaker isn't. Yeah, a troublemaker is not a contrarian or the devil's advocate who's always like, well, let's look at it differently. They're not a troll who is throwing chaos bombs in a room. Professional troublemakers are people who are committed, dedicated to elevating the rooms that they're in and disrupting for the greater good. You know. They're the person who sits in the meeting and says, hey, the campaign idea, I would love for us to be a little bit more thoughtful about it. You know. They're the ones who are sitting at the dinner table where if your uncle makes a joke that's not appropriate, they'll be like, hey, uncle, not good, you know. And they're the friends. They're a friend that we all have who always wanted to have a tough conversation even though it might make other people uncomfortable. They're like, let's let's talk about this thing because it's important. I think troublemakers are necessary in the world, and they're they're being silenced more than they're being celebrated. And that is a mistake. I love what you write. A professional troublemakers, someone who critiques the world, the shoddy systems and the people who refuse to do better. As a writer, a speaker, and a shaking night Jerry, and I am the person giving the side eye to folks for doing trash things. I'm the person who is unable to be quiet when I feel cheated. I'm the person who says what you were thinking and feeling but dare not say because you have a job to protect or you're afraid of how it will land. Yeah, that's pretty fearless. You don't You're not afraid to express yourself. It seems to me that we're living in very treacherous times, you know, in terms of expressing yourself and being misconstrued or taken wrongly. I think, especially as these culture shifts are unfolding happily before our eyes, how do you kind of balance this need to speak out? You know, speak truth to power, but also be received in a way that will help facilitate understanding and uh changes in attitude and real oppress If that makes sense. Yeah, I think, you know, with speaking out and that one thing that people must understand about troublemakers is that we don't just speak up because we're not afraid. We do it in spite of the fact that we are afraid. You know, we are bold, and we come across as that. But it's not because we don't think there aren't going to be consequences. Sometimes it doesn't mean we don't we're not afraid of the fact that, yes, one person might misconstrue what we say, our intention and blow it up, right, it's just that we say, I understand that's a risk, and I will take it. And it is one of those things. And it's not even about being fearless, because I think fearlessness is not even not just about you're not afraid. I think fearlessness is that you're not letting fear make you do less. So you go, Okay, I'm about to say this thing that might be controversial, but I really believe it and I think it's the truth, and I'm gonna say it, and you go, I know it might not land well, some people might not like it, but I think it's important that we have this dialogue and you say it knowing that you are also not in control of how anybody will receive it. One of the things that we must understand in this world is that the only people that we have any type of real control overs ourselves and everybody else is a crack shoot. How everybody you know takes whatever you say is really up in the air. You might say one thing and it lands well, and then the next thing people go, why would you say that? And that's why you have to control yourself in terms of how thoughtful your being. It's why I have a three question framework that I use to ask myself whenever i'm I want to say something that feels tough or that people might disagree with. It's do I mean it? Can I defend it? Can I say thoughtfully? If the answer is just all those three questions, I say it knowing that it might still land in a way that somebody doesn't like. But I've done my risk mitigation and I've done my obligation because I think if I am constantly moving based on how how I think people receive it, my moves won't be authentic to me anymore. I'll be controlled by what I think is going to be the impact all the time. At which point I would take no risks, I would say nothing real. I will stay in a safe bubble and only say the things that I know will go well, which for a thought leader, I can't do that because what how do how do I grow as a thought leader if I'm constantly only saying what's safe? Um, how do I? How do you an example? Give me an example of you if when you put something out there it met all three criteria for going ahead and speaking out and atlantic or didn't. I mean. Chapter seven of my book is called failed Loudly, and it is chronicles the time when I made my biggest public fail where I trend it on Twitter because of it a come that I thought was innoxious that ends up being oh my god, I can't believe she said it. And that moment for me was a lesson because I was like, it was less about what I said, it was about it was more about how people wanted to react in that moment. It was also more about a lesson I need to learn about the fact that because I am a thought leader, because I am I have a bigger platform, my my words are engaged with differently, and the platform being bigger means more people are listening. There are more chances to be misunderstood. It doesn't mean I shut up. It doesn't mean I say less. It actually means that one, I continue to give myself the chance to fail too, because each fail is a growth opportunity, because I am a better thinker because of that situation. And then three, we cannot control other people and the fear that a lot of us have, which is being humiliar at it publicly or you know, ended up trending for something that is not positive. I went through it. It did not kill me, right. It's one of those painful lessons that we're always afraid of that moment though, And what's funny is in the moment when that moment happened, I actually wasn't afraid of it. It was something that felt innocua, something that wasn't even thinking was a problem. So I think it reinforced for me that my mission and my purpose my words are bigger than any one moment, and I must continue to use it in a real way, and I need to be more thoughtful. All of that, it was like a big storm of I need to show you that new levels come with new devils. But also when the worst case scenario happens, you can still recover, You can still your space up you can still move forward and do your work. It will not destroy you. All. Every mistake, even big ones, are not destruction mistakes, right, because we're always afraid of the destruction. So I was like, all right, if I made it through there, I can do something big. But you do just say new levels, with new levels, new devils. Yeah, that's good to remember because I think people that's one of the things that people live in fear of, right, that they'll get a clap back, or they'll get you know, told no, or they'll get something and it will not destroy you basically correct. Correct. I think we're often afraid of the worst case scenario, but then we'll use it to it will opt out of the best case scenario in the process, so we won't say that thing that feels tough because we're afraid of the major clap back. But the best case scenario to be ships in the world could be ships and how somebody's thinking could be impactful to somebody somewhere who feels alone in this It could help normalize somebody's pain. And how often are we opted out of that piece that impact that we can have because we're afraid of our egos being hurt. You dedicate this book to your grandmother. Tell me about her and why you got such courage from the person she She was. Yeah, my grandmother Fumilia following we called her Mama following. She was a fireball. She was passion, love, kindness all rolled in one package. And my grandmother took up space without apology in a big way. She allowed herself to be celebrated, and she never apologized for herself. You know, she walked with so much pride about just her persona that in her presence it was hard to feel bad about yourself because you would just be like, look at her. And she gave me the gift of that because I didn't realize that what she was doing was giving me permission to be who I am in a real way. She never had to be like be yourself. She just was herself and I was watching her, and I'm like, okay, And I learned a lot from just seeing how she navigated through the world, which is often not kind to black women. My grandmother was like, this is who I am. You're gonna deal and you're probably gonna love me. Like you know, she was very kind in that anything that she had, if somebody else was missing it, She'll give it to them. She would. I've seen my grandmother I should have visitors and somebody said, oh my god, I like your shirt, and she would literally go change and say here to the person who just complimented her shirt. The ring that I wear on this hand that I basically haven't taken off like twenty years, was hers. One day I was like, oh, Grandma, that's really nice. She literally slips this ring, this gold ring, off her finger and handed it to me and I've been wearing it ever since. She was that woman who was just benevolent, beyond understanding, but she didn't do it by sacrificing herself, and that was really key. I think women are often told, or the messaging that we get is that we need to be of service, even if it is of detriment to ourselves. She was of service, but she was never gonna sacrifice herself for it. I didn't see it, so I was learning all of that and I think I carry that with me and I'm thankful that she gave me that permission. How old were you when you came to this country. I was nine, and I'm curious how much the immigrant experience for you. Lovey impacted sort of how you move in the world and how you see the world and how you want the world to see you. Mm hmm. I think it's a big part of how I see myself and just everything about me, my the way I write, the way I approach humored, the way my swag is very Nigerian, and um my face is very Nigerian. Um. Yeah, I think I see the world in a way that's different because knowing what it's like to come from a place where everybody looks like you and now everybody who looks like you is considered less than it does shock your system. But I think I also had the bubble that protected me at home. You know, I kept that with me and I and I am service oriented and that my my family especially, that's been a big part of us. Like it's almost cultural for us to to give, Like if you were to come to my house and I only had a one bedroom, for example, Culturally, I'm supposed to let you have my bed and I sleep on the couch, And that is deeply embedded in how I operate to um and if I have too much of excess, I must have somebody else must get some of it. But I think, Yeah, just how I even approach everything food from the food I eat, the music I listened to a lot. Afrobeats is very much embedded in my culture. The fact that I can tell the stories of mine grandmother and introduced people to new concepts that they might not have heard. That's in your by land. It's all my culture. And I think, I I'm I'm proudly Nigerian American, and I'm hoping that somebody else somewhere just to see me and say, you know what, I'm going to use her as the example to my parents as what's possible for me. A lot of I think women and women of color have dealt with not having enough role models in their lives, not seen enough women before them. Too many of them are are first when they should be second, third, fourth, and fifth. And I'm curious how that, how that affected you and where you saw it those role models other than your family. Yeah. So for a long time I did not call myself a writer because I thought writers were journalists or novelists. I didn't see an example of a writer who was an essayist who wrote like I did. So it actually did cause me a bit of a mental roadblock for a while because I was like, yeah, I can't be a writer like Tony Morrison's writer, but Tony writes novels, so I can't. That's not me. And I think about how just not having the example stopped me so much from that that it brings me joy that I can be somebody's example. Now, you know, in terms of writers, there's so many of us now too that exists who are essays, who aren't just writing the novels, and so the kids who are Generation Z, they have a lot of options to look to like that's possible, that's version, it's possible to and that's the gift that we didn't have. So part of the work that I do and how I show up in the world is with the hopes that somebody else has seen me and being able to be like, Okay, because Letty did that and can do that, that means I can't also, and it's possible. It's that concrete example that we often need to know what is like possible for us. So whatever the example that I didn't have, I became that example for myself and then now I'm hoping I'm the example for other people. I think, what's so exciting about the culture today, and there are a lot of bills about social media, but the way you can reach people, you no longer have few outlets with with gatekeepers who all basically look like the same person, you have the same background, determine what's worthy or what's not. You can put things out in the world and and let people respond. And that has changed everything, don't you think. Yeah, Social has democratized everything. I've been early adopter of all the platforms, so I've been on Facebook since July's thousand four. I've been on Twitter since September two thou eight, and Instagram since twelve. And I've just watched all the platforms unlocked doors in ways that's mind boggling. People create an account and in three months, if they have the right content, have a million followers, and we'll have all this option of who to work with. And I think it's beautiful because the lack of that, we have to strive for every bit of it, and social now opening that door. That means we're we are every day we're getting access to brilliant minds who who previously would not have had the chance because of all the locked doors that were controlled by a handful of people. Now some of these doors are wide open because you just sign up for an account. Free account opens up a door. I hope more people are doing it. How women can dump those are gender roles? Amen to that more advice from Lovy in just a moment. There's still a lot of cultural conditioning and implicit bias to use sort of monitored day buzzwords that keep women in general from doing the things that men have always done that they have not felt comfortable doing, bringing attention to themselves, being considered a bit being outspoken, um, you know, not necessarily adhering to gender norms that have really been established obviously for centuries. But still I think the remnants of those pressures still exists. And and what do you tell women too in terms of being able to to kind of straddle that or perhaps even better, put these expectations aside and kind of push forward, because we've been wired to feel uncomfortable when we pushed through gender roles and expectations. And and it's still they're still very prevalent in the culture. Yeah, I think we should dump them. I think we should dump them. And I'm hoping this book helps people dump some of it because one of the things that women are especially concerned about is how do I make sure I don't brag about myself if I'm talking about something I did. If you're stating the fact of something you did is bragging, then brag on. If I can say to you, my second book is a New York Times by seller, and I say it in any tone actually, and it's considered bragging. But I'm like, that was actually just a fact, right. I think women need to get rid of the ideas that we should be these humble creatures who do not own what we're amazing at. I don't think us diminishing our dopeness. Does anybody any favors? So yeah, man get to say like, oh yeah, I did this, I raised this much a mount for my company, and everybody takes this fact and says, got it. Respect. We say something that we did and were instantly told she's bragging. Well, you know what, let me be bragging them. You know, I don't think we were brought here to be humble in the way we're thinking. Humility is valid. But humility does not mean you diminish or you self deprecate. It means you know what you're amazing at, but you also give credit to all the systems around you, all the people who have allowed you to to get there, the training you've gotten, your parents were giving you the opportunities. My humility is based in the fact that I know that my God giving gifts I've honed over years um and I've been given access to the life terms to do this because my mom made the sacrifice to move us to the United States. My grandmother lived this hard life before and is fully joyful by the time I met her. You know, and all the people who came before me, all the writers of color who came before me, all the black women scribes who came before me, I give them credit. But it does not mean I then sit here and diminish my gifts just to make somebody else feel better. So I think, women, the sooner that we get rid of everybody's expectations of us, the better we will be for it. Let us make money without guilt, Let us be amazing at our work and being confident without guilt. Let us, you know, ask for what we want without any guilt attached. And when we start doing that, we will start soaring even more because we don't need to shackle ourselves to the ground to make everybody else feel better? What about the desire on the part of so many women? And I think I speak for myself. I'm a pleaser and it's important for me to be liked, which doesn't necessarily or hasn't necessarily gone hand in hand with me. Uh. You know, I've always been kind of vacillating from being direct saying what I want, am worrying about what people think of me. How how do you rid yourself of that? You know, you just have to just know logically, humans are fickle. Humans are fickle beings, and the things that we like today we won't like tomorrow. We will change our reception of somebody's thoughts based on the mood we're in, knowing that chasing human validation is a futile mission because we will always disappoint somebody. Somebody will always disagree with you, Somebody will always dislike you, no matter what you do. So when we insist on people pleasing, we're like chasing people's fickleness. And they don't even know when they would like us. They don't even know what we need to do to make them like us. So it's exhausting. It is a hopeless mission, and it is a waste of time. It is truly a waste of time to try to receive the approval of most humans because you won't get it. You can bend yourself over backwards and somebody will still say you didn't bend avoid, you didn't bend enough, That wasn't enough. So knowing that I'm always like, I can't. I can't move with the idea that I it's because I want a specific group to like me, because the people who don't like me will never like me. If you don't like me now, you're never gonna like me. So if I'm already on your I hate her list, you can keep me there. You're not my people. I need to actually talk more and deep in my connection with those who are my people, the people who are already like Yes, I hear you, I see you, I affirm what you're saying. So I think we need to just know who are people are and speak to them. As long as our people are good, everybody else you don't have to like me. It's okay. I can't win you over, nor is it my job to win you over, because no one who meant is more worse brare than another. So if I'm like constantly trying to get you to like me. What about the person over there who doesn't like No, I gotta spend more effort on that. So I think we just gotta let um let it go and recognize that you don't even like everybody, right, so everybody shouldn't like you. I know, a whole bunch of people hate me, which is great, because a whole lot of people love me too. And they're the ones who I want to feed. They're the ones who I want to affirm. They're the ones who I want to spend some time with and hopefully loan courage and power when they need everybody else I'm not there people, which is fine. Let's talk about the three sections of your book Loving because one is be, one is say, one is do, And I wonder if you could just help us understand the takeaway from each of these sections. Be Let's start with B fear. Half the battle is with our own self, our own insecurities, and our own baggage. Go yes. In the B section I'm talking about we have to get our mindset together because what we think possible is a self fulfilling prophecy. Unfortunately, so we have to get rid of a lot of these attachments to people's thoughts about us, a lot of these attachments to people's dreams that they have for us, some of these attachments to our own negative self talk about ourselves. You gotta get rid of it. It's not it's not used, it's not useful. It is a waste of our time and energy and better. And it makes you get stuck. You absolutely get stuck. It will weigh you down. It will weigh you down. It's like you're sitting on the couch while like holding onto a boulder. It will weigh you down. So what what is your solution for that? Gash yourself up, hype yourself up all the time, have something at the ready. And in my first chapter, I make people write in a Reekian life mission statement, because I want you to have at the ready something that is affirming about you, written down, noted, documented, whether it's laminated and sitting by your computer, whether it's by your mirror. Something. So in those days when you're feeling way down, where somebody has called you a name that doesn't belong to you, or somebody has said you're not enough, that you're too much, refer back to this thing, Read it over and over again until you feel okay again, and then just keep it there because you might need it the day after. Say, we've got to say what's difficult, even when our voices shake. Yes. So after you get the mindset together, now you have to start putting the words to this new boldness and this confidence. Why, because we've gotta say it out loud. There's power in our in our words, there's and and it basically establishes and keeps us accountable. We have to be the person who is in the room, not being silent as something is awful going on, but saying you know what, I'm gonna challenge that, and I'm gonna do it thoughtfully, but I'm gonna challenge that because I want to be proud of any place that I'm in. And finally, do grow anyway, do what's heard anyway change anyway? Yes. So now you gotta put some some action to the words. You know, how are you moving different? What is the thing that you're gonna do to make sure you're supporting yourself, to make sure you're honoring yourself? Um, And sometimes self care looks like saying no, you know. Sometimes self care looks like firing yourself. Sometimes it looks like building your squad. Gotta do actions. So be right, get your mind right, say use your words, do put some action to it. Air book had a transformational effect before it was even published. On your editor neg leader. Yes, yeah, yeah, and tell us how she successfully used your advice after reading the manuscript. Yes. So Meg read my manuscript last year. She was the first person to read the manuscript top down. And when she sent my first draft back, it's um she had at its comments on the in the side and she said, from my ask for more chapter, which is chapter four, she was like, just so you know, this chapter made me ask my boss for a raise. And I was like, amazing. Already I was really thrilled for her because I'm like, yes, come on and do the thing the book is telling you. In December, um our last book meeting for the year, she was like, so I have some great news. I have been promoted to editorial director of Penguin Life. Not only did she get the raise, she got a promotion and she was like, your book is what really compelled me to make that ask, and it's changed her life. She's like, your book has changed my life, and for me, that is the best case scenario of doing this type of work knowing that my words can compel somebody to do something concrete that shifts their life in something in a really good way. I was like, Wow, Okay, so the book is already a success. In my book, like with my criteria, this book is already a wild least successful thing. What about having the courage to join forces with other people to really move the needle on some of these thorny cultural issues that are so um gosh entrenched in our society. And what is your perspective on that? Because obviously these are individual things that people can do, but what about things that they can do when they collaborate with other like minded people. Yeah. I think this is also where it's important for us to be able to trust each other and tell each other the truth, because collaboration with other people is teamwork, right, and for teamwork to go very well, there has to be foundational trust and there has to be room for being challenged. We absolutely have to start getting together to solve bigger issues, because that's why they say teamwork makes the dreamwork. Two heads always better than one. Our collaboration is necessary, and we're all being collaborative in that you know even this podcast is collaborative. The fact that you are speaking to other people and bringing different thoughts together. That is the power of the world we living and we all have to start rise into that occasion. So whenever we are in the room, that's our ability, and that's our platform in the moment. I think people are very people think platforms and collaboration comes with having four thousand followers. No, I think the platform we all have are the rooms that were in the people. We get to talk to our friends, our colleagues, people we might have never met, but we know we can text them because everybody has an Internet friend. Okay, that's our platform, and we collaborate and just seeing the humanity in each other and saying, listen, here's the thing that we gotta do. Can you join me and fixing this? And that's why we all have to do our parts in being troublemakers. It's why we all have to kind of commit to saying, if I am in the room, I would be proud of what happens in it. I will be the person who's asking questions, who is making sure that we've checked out our blind spots. You know, the person who asked the one extra question that might lead us to a black hole of discussion, but it's needed for this thing to be as thoughtful as possible. We need everybody to do that. It can't just be one person doing it. You know, we're always looking for Superman to save the day. And I'm like, we all have red capes. You don't have to wait for Superman. Use your own cape. And finally, I love just listening to you, lovey And and finally you you quote John Lewis, who was such a great man about you know, getting too necessary good trouble, which has become obviously so associated with him and the life, the incredible life he lived. But but you also say he's a shining example of loaning courage. So how how what does that mean exactly? And how can we all loan courage? Yeah? I think we long encouraged by affirming each other. You know, the late great John Lewis absolutely loan urged by modeling what courage looked like. You know, he will He spoke up when it was tough, He put his body on the line when it was tough, and hoping people would see him and say, I can also do something, even if I'm not doing that I can do something. And the piece about lone encouraged is especially real for me because my Ted talk that now has all these million views. I almost didn't do it. I have to turn it down twice. I was about to turn down a third time when I called my friend Unique Jones Gibson, who you know, yeah, is one of the besties. I called her and I was about to say I was I was telling her. I was like, hey, Pat Mitchell wants me to do this Ted talk. It's in three weeks. I don't think I can do it. Everybody else has already had a coach, everybody else has already been rehearsed, they have their talks together. I would have to come up with my own talk and presented and on the stage in three weeks. And Unique literally said, everybody, ain't you. She's like, you're not everybody. Your speaking has been your coaching, You've been on the stage every three days, you have eight years of experience. You are not everybody. So get off my phone, go right this talk and kill it. And that is the moment when I actually deleted the email I was gonna send decline it for the third time. And what Unique did then when she loaned me courage. She reminded me of my power when I actually wasn't sure of it. And that's what I hope John Lewis's life does for a lot of people. That's what I hope when they see people like me who show up boldly. Also, I hope we're loaning people courage constantly. I hope they're thinking about my words in the meeting with their boss when they're asking for the promotion. I hope they're thinking I should have that tough conversation with my friend. And I hope when they're asked to celebrate each other of themselves, they don't feel bad about doing it. We can all loan each other courage from afar and when we're right up in the room so affirming each other's experiences in our lives. Why do you think women haven't done a better job of loaning each other courage that they have been here before? I think competitive. I mean I've been very competitive through the years. I can't say that I necessarily done a good enough job loaning courage to other women who I see as threats. So how do you how do you get rid of that? I think natural impulse to see other women who may be vying for a job that is the same as yours, as sisters and not threats. Yeah, I think about it as one. Women have been programmed to not be supportive of each other because the patriarchy, the systems we live in have told us that if one of us wins, the rest of us failed. So we've been told that scarcity is the way to move, when really it's abundance. Because if you get a position I want, that doesn't mean I failed. Actually means you want, which means hopefully you opened the door that allows more women to come behind you. I think for us is understanding that, to be quiet, honest, competition isn't real. You know, even if you are in a hundred meter dash, the person who wins is the person who runs the fastest race. When you win and you're facing twenty people and you end up getting ten seconds, maybe that type seconds might not actually be the one that wins the race. You might do another race and you ran fixteen seconds in that one. It doesn't matter what other people are doing. If your best is what showed up. Your best was enough, whether or not you came in first place by product. So I'm always thinking if even if I am up for a keynote with another woman and they're choosing somebody else, all I know is my job in that moment is to put my best foot forward. But if they're best foot forward, actually best mind, congrats you won that. It doesn't mean there's fewer jobs for me. It doesn't mean it takes me out of the game completely. It doesn't mean I'm not a great speaker. It just means that person's best in that instance beat mine. Doesn't mean mind sucked. And it's a constant affirmation. And I think just thinking through the fact that the thing, the machine that has been put in place that has told us there's only one job, thirty people are vying for it, and if you don't get the one job, your life is ruined. Break the machine. We gotta start breaking the machine. Like, I'm totally not interested in participating in those types of games where it's like one and everybody else is not good. No, no, not interested, not interested at all. So yeah, me and my friends. Again, I have a lot of friends who in the same industry as me, who are probably up for some of the same keynote speaking gigs, and I'm just like where it gets it gets it whoever it gets, and then the next one might be mine, or maybe I get in and I say, huh, who's your close and keynote you know who I know who's amazing her? And then now he gets go to the same conference everybody went. So we just have to start insisting on using our power in these moments when people wanted to be in competition twisted on his head. My whole thing is, if I can't even do something, for example, I'll pass it on to another woman who I know, Hey, I know I can't do it, but she can. She's amazing at that. And oftentimes they'll say yes. So we got to use our power for each other, not against it and shred the machine. Your how old, lovely? I am thirty six? How do you get to be so wise at such a young age. I observe and I absorb, and I am a forever student. Um. I have been pretty much an old soul since I was young. My mom tells me that all the time. Anybody who knows me when I was little tells me that all the time. Um. But I think I just continue to absorb the good in the world so the bad does not take over my psyche. I'm constantly like, what can I learn? How can I serve? And how can I honor myself if I'm honoring everybody else around me? So yeah, Forever student, Well love e Agii Jones. You're so fun to talk to you. I feel very inspired just having this conversation, not to mention you have the most beautiful smile. Your new book is Professional Troublemaker the Fear Fighter Manual. I think there's really valuable life lessons for everyone in this book. Women, men, anybody, Katie, thank you. That is an honor. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fassio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.