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I cannot believe, Brian, this year is coming to an end. In subways, it seemed as if it would never be over. Like a bad movie, if you know what I'm saying. In other ways, time flies when you're having fun, and Brian, the older you get, the faster time flies. It seems well, you're younger than Springtime, Katie, younger than springtime? Are you gayer than laughter? Are you? I promise we didn't plan this anyway. As the year comes to a close, we're gonna look back at the biggest names, the biggest moments, and the biggest trends of But there's too much to cram into one episode, so we're doing this in two parts, splitting up the year into five count them five different themes. Today's episode, we're starting by tackling the year in pop culture. Will be chatting with Jia Tolentino of The New Yorker and Ira Madison of the podcast Keep It. Then we'll talk about lgbt Q issues with Dan Savage of The Savage Love Cast, among many other things, and Sarah McBride from the Human Rights Campaign. And finally we'll get to talk about race with Chamel Bowie from Slate and Maria Inajosa from Latino USA. Next week, we're gonna look back at the year in climate change and who better to do that with than Al Gore, and we're also going to have a chance to talk news and politics with Michael Barbarrow from the Daily podcast from the New York Times. We can't wait, but let's start with pop culture, which we all know. Brian is your bread and butter. Oh, for sure, you love Regis, Philbin, Frank Sinatra, you know the hottest names. He really is on top of things everyone. But as we mentioned, we're talking to two cultural critics for this conversation. Gia tole Tino writes for The New Yorker. You might have read her masterpiece article on millennials earlier this year, or maybe her piece about Jewel not the singer the electronic cigarette. I like her because she's a u v a alum wahua. Everybody's definitely my favorite UV alone. I'm kidding, Katie. And then Ira Madison is here. He's the host of Crooked Media's pop culture podcast, which is called Keep It. He's also a writer on a new Netflix teen sci fi drama dy called Daybreak, which is debuting next year and no relation to Billy apparently. So when Ira and Jia come into the studio, I swear to god we haven't been talking for three minutes when the biggest name of the year came up, Arianna Grande. Of course, are you expecting me to say someone else, Brian, Yeah, I don't know. I I I was expecting you to say somebody whose name rhymes with drump I don't know, just made more Mitch McConnell, or somebody in your or book. Well that's where we started with gianne Ira, and they went crazy, by the way, and then we got to some other big names, big moments and big trends and pop culture from two thousand eighteen. Listen, I know you've been following Ariana Grande very religiously on her Instagram feed. I've seen a lot of your lives. I want to say for the record that she's always been funnier than Pete really. Oh yeah, look on our Instagram she has. She did this fake wildlife video in Australia when she was on tour, pitch perfect Australian accent. She's good. I haven't seen prints on a few days. My you know what that means might be open for young friends. You might be did as mates. Let's talk about her a little bit more, and we're going to talk about other big names that we really witnessed in the pop culture landscape this year. Gosh, it's funny. People kind of come and go, don't they. But she's still white hot right now. So let's talk about Ariana. Why is she? Why does she have such a hold on people at this moment in time? She's funny, said, you know, she's all I thought the doughnut licking incident was funny. She's gonna hear us since she was slamming, really because to me, that was so embarrassing. But you guys think that brought her a lot of street grad I think it's embarrassing young people. Ourselves probably we identified strongly with what it would be like to be drunk in a donut chop, try to eat a doughnut and say I hate America at that particular stressful point in time. You know, I've been a fan of Arianna since the first album. Yours truly like she. The thing about her is that she's been just slowly her star has been slowly, slowly rising. She was pitched at the beginning, as you know, sort of like a baby Mariah Carey, which didn't really do her any favors. That they even had her do like a cover of emotions. She has vocals, She's incredibly challenged. She's so little. How can that big voice come out with she? You know, the first couple of albums, you know, it was it was very retrou She kind of seemed like a songbird. She didn't enunciate very clearly at all. One of my old colleagues a Rota post that was like, girl, Arianna, what are you even talking about? Girl? But on Sweetener, I mean, I love the album. I think it's great to it. I love that she worked with Para Williams and Max Martin U sort of like a throwback to the pop people. But g and I probably grew up with what up with this whole thing with Pete Davidson helped me understand this. So they got engaged after you know, three months or something, and I think one of the it was more like three weeks or something like that. And the reason why, I think one of the reasons that it grabbed people's attention was that Arianna has had a wild year. You know, she had the Manchester bombing. And Pete Davidson has also had quite a life. I mean, his dad died in nine eleven, and it's sort of this ultra millennial like bonding based on trauma and sort of the perceived imminent end of the world, which is the thing hovering over all of pop culture. And also, you know, they're both really funny and they both knew how to talk about their relationship in a way that it was more candid than you normally get out of people. It was destined to fail, but it seems like it was. It was it was accelerated by the death of her former boyfriend. Yeah, that was really sad. Can you tell to explain that to our listeners. Her former boyfriend was Mac Miller, who was a rapper I really enjoyed and also someone that steadily got better and better and better. I didn't always like him, but by the end, Yeah, like his last album was fantastic. Um. He's a person who struggled with you know, addiction issues, um over the years, and once this relapse happened, Um, I think that was just one more trauma tossed into Ariana's life. The opioid crysis has come to music. Really. You know, Tom Petty, Prince, Mac Miller, and Little People died from ventinyl overdoses. That's a lot. Okay, we're gonna take a bit of a turn, and we're gonna talk about somebody else with a lot going on in Kylie Jenner, who was, among other things, on the cover of Forbes for being self made potentially quote self made youngest billionaire. So is she self made? Not? By my definition? Scratch that take um. I think coming from incredible family wealth does not negate being hard working and having a extremely sharp instinct as all those women do for what how you can monetize identity and beauty and female personhood in in this age. I think people often mistake I worked hard for I'm self made, And to me, those are quite different, especially since her brand is just sort of herself. It seems like all of this came from her person. But it's like you wouldn't it is true, but you also wouldn't put like a Rockefeller on forums and say that they're self made. Let's talk about some other boldface names that got a lot of attention this year. Donald Glover, I mean childish gampino that he to me, had such a breakthrough moment and he was obviously making a lot of noise people were noticing Atlanta, but this brought him to a new level didn't it Ira, Yeah, I mean there was Atlanta, it was that this is America. I've listened to his music before, and you know, a lot of it was sort of soundcloudy. Yeah, He's he's um. That's the theme with a lot of artists this year. Actually, I feel like they've been getting better. This was you know, just sort of him dipping into soul music a bit more. And it just really came out in a time when you know, people were willing to talk about politics and music and also and race. But also the video it's just so vivid and grim and I don't personally love the video. I don't. I don't like it when when stuff is I mean, everyone is hungry for stuff that's of the moment, but it's so on the nose. Having said that, it did make such a huge impression. I mean it was everywhere. You couldn't avoid it. Why did that catch such fire at that moment in time? In your view era, it's made for people to talk about it. You know, it's him shooting um other black people in the video, it's him waring Confederate stob trousers, right, and some of the symbolism I think people enjoy when they have to kind of peel away some of these things that are not necessarily over or too obvious, and I think people had fun kind of looking for the hidden meaning. Some not hidden obviously, but you know, the horse, the person on the horse riding by, and all those other things. I mean, it's the reason why drake klungs are so popular too. You know, like you have to capitalize on the fact that there's so much content now and if you make a song, if you make a music video that people can dissect online, it's going to help your song be better and sort of way through. And you know, with such a violent video like that, and then you put some imagery in there, people were going to be talking about it. Another performance that really captured people's imaginations this year was Beyonce's at Coach Can you talk a little Well, I'm from Texas, I'm from Houston. You know, first time I saw Destiny Child was at the Rodeo in seventh grade, so you know, I've been there from the beginning. I saw them at the Milwaukee Summer Fest. That was great, was at Beach Ella and it was I'm feeling it now. I just I mean, she's the first black woman to ever headline Coachella. That's wild. How did it take so long? It's also weird because you know, I was never a big coach Ella person before, and you know, actually that's why. And looking looking back, right, it was always just the whitest place. But then, you know, I feel like when Kanye performed a few years ago, like they started shifting more towards like hip hop acts and things and less white people playing music on the desk. So one of the reasons it was so extraordinary was that Beyonce didn't do it on Coachella's terms, right, she did it all on her term she put on. She was sort of like performing musicology in real time. She One of the things that's extraordinary about her is that the way you know, she was really dismissed early in her career is just kind of producing generic pop stuff. But here you see in a set like this, she's reinterpreting all of these old, old, old songs in the language of a New Orleans set in line in the language of you know, of like Houston, Texas, like chopped and screwed, dirty rap. It's like she is making this this long line of tradition that she has been working within Come Alive, and she did it so beautifully. It seems to me that she and jay Z have really mastered the art of being famous. You know, she's the only person who could take over Vogue magazine and have full editorial control. Do you see any danger in her power? Well, I don't think any celebrities should be able to take over get editorial control over magazine, but it does seem to be the way that we're headed. Yeah. You know Oprah's interview with Michelle Obama, you know, and like, oh, you know, it seems like we're towards the celebrities interviewing and there was like the one of the worst ones was like I'm a Stone and Jennifer Lawrence. They were just like, oh my god, you're so pretty, and it was like, you know, actually, this is why the interview magazine model. Do you remember, interview has a place right because they would do it at a certain angle right like they would they would get they would match people up in the ways. That's sometimes you know, those those conversations be interesting. But isn't it important to have editorial control and an editorial voice so that celebrities don't take over the world. Yeah, I thought like a good version of that was Timothy Shallaba being interviewed by Harry S. Yeah, it was, Yes, it was like they're both in a certain space in pop culture and we benefited from hearing them talk to each other. Another person who seemed to have a huge year was Tiffany Hattish. She's amazing. Yeah, why do you think that she burst onto the scene in such a huge way. Comedy was sort of needing a voice like hers. Some people have tried to lodge it on plaint, you know that, like, oh, she's almost the same in every movie, But that's what people want. You let people do that before, and it can work if they're we like them. Hollywood studio system was built. You know exactly what you're going to get from a gin Cali movie. We've gone from big names and now we want to just talk about some big moments of the year. One was Oprah and her her Time's up me to speech at the Golden Globes. So I want all the girls watching here now to know that a new day is on the horizon, and when that new day finally dawned, it will be because of a lot of magnificent women. Many of them are right here in this room tonight and some pretty phenomenal men. Was that as significant as people are making it out to be. I don't know. I mean, I've almost forgotten she gave that speech until now. Um, I think that it didn't have that much impact within the overall music day is on the horizon. For my money, you know, I hate a word shows. I don't watch them for my money. The most impactful moment at an award show was Franz McDorman introducing the world to the concept of the inclusion writer, which nobody uses, which people are starting to use though, or yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Michael B. Jordan's company uses that women are writing things clauses about nudity in their contracts, like there there's stuff there is like that structural sort of legal protection is ramping up in that to me means a lot more than whatever rhetorics someone says it a speech, you know, at an award show that will get reaggregated everywhere for three days and then everyone will forget about it. You've written so much about me too, and Time's up And now Times Up has a new CEO, Lisa Borders, who came from the w n B A a lot of people in art, business and media have lost their jobs and been banished. And I'm curious, have you seen the movement go from activism to activation because I keep waiting for concrete things that are happening in sort of a bunch of arenas, and I don't really see it. I do think that for me always the question about me too, which is again you know, started by Toronto Brick a long time before this last year. There's been so much conversation about what's going to happen to these men. There's been so much focus about these men and they attempts to make a comeback and their feelings over the past year, and to me, it obscures the fact that, you know, like women couldn't get credit cards on their own until the seventies, right like, we are still a long way away from change that will feel satisfying. We are still in the cycle of backlash. Like you know, the Kavanaugh confirmation was I think partly a response to me to the fact that Republican support for him went up during the hearing. Means a lot. And so from the beginning, I've just tried, you know, as a young person who always expected that I would be equal and has over the last few years, have been realizing that a lot of the country doesn't, you know, want things to be that way. I know, isn't that a sad revelation, But I'm but I feel lucky to have been to be young enough that I grew up expecting it, which not is not the case for a lot of older generations. And I've just tried to remember that change is going to be slow. It's always it's always been slow, it's always been uneven, and you have to keep your foot on the gas. You have to keep your foot on the gas. And to me, you know, like what what matters the things that the media ends up talking about with me too, is not again where the change happen is the change happens in different language and contracts, and the change happens in HR meetings, and the change happens in hiring. Well, isn't it progress that a lot of bad actors have gotten fired and the message has sort of gone out that this behavior is unacceptable. But I think we're seeing again, I think we're seeing the backlash and again, you know, what happens to people who have done things that are wrong? Is not that important to me, what's important is the structures that are in place to make to make things more equal within the institution that those people got kicked out of, particularly because you know, there's so many people like Louis c k or something get to come back because one they're successful, and you know there within still this echo chamber of a fan base who will support them no matter what they do. And you know a lot of people in the industry talk about how much time do we have to wait for this person to be out of the spotlight before they come back? And I think as long as people keep focusing on that instead of changing things, um, Hollywood is just it's really just sort of an ebb and flow right now. I don't think anything really structural is happening aside from the way that we're talking about. We're still talking about it, and that's a good thing. So let's talk about Kanye in the Oval office with President Trump. You know, people expect that if you're black, you have to be democratic. I have a I've have conversations that basically said that welfare is the reason why a lot of black people end up being democratic. Say, you know, if that was a big moment, what did you make of it. I've been I've been of the opinion very strongly for the last ever since social media happened. Is that, you know, I mean, I think we'd all be better off if we made celebrity opinions matter much less. Um. It's interesting. It's like this year has been just like the it's the it's the revision of the Kanye Taylor VMA's feud where where Taylor finally spoke up about politics, urge people to vote, urge them to vote for a Democrat. But then Kanye ended up in the White House talking, you know, wearing a Maga hat, And to me, it was like, maybe we shouldn't look to celebrities for our It's also the fun hypocrisy of it too, because you know, it's the conservatives of the right are often talking about how they don't want celebrities chogging and on politics, but it's usually just when celebrities are telling people to vote for Democrats. Uh, as soon as the celebrity hops over at wants to you know, wear a Maga hat, um, then we should be listening to that celebrity's opinion. But now he's disavowed Donald Yeah, because he was in a manic episode and then uh yeah, I mean it's really regretful. Kanye has fallen off harder than any I mean, Kanye, it's one of the best producers, like one of most influential musicians of this era, and this new album that he put out is awful, and and his his work got bad, everything else got bad at the same time. And to me, the when he went to the White House, it didn't mean anything because again, like I try not to think that it means like hanging on to every single word that Kanye said about politics at any point is never going to be particularly helpful to the discourse or anything. If you've been a fan of Kanye, you know that he has never really been great are issues of politics, you know, on um even misogyny towards black women in his music and things. And it's just sort of once he came to this place, it was sort of expected. It's sort of exactly what promised us with celebrities, Like there's a direct line between Beyonce taking control of Vogue and Kanye is sort of putting himself out there in front of everyone because I think that he was, you know, trying to magically control his own image and you know, fix the fact that you know, creatively, um, he was a bit in a slump. There is a direct line also to Kim Kardashian, you know, got Alice Johnson released from prison, right And it's like all of this is happening on an individual charisma, celebrity based situation where this is like not helpful. We should be speaking broadly about what happens needs to happen with criminal justice reform instead of Kim Kardashian marching in and getting clemency for one person. I mean, it's just such a distraction from the actual basis of change. And having said that, you know, I think that certainly so many celebrities have felt compelled in and this trump you know environment we're living in to speak out on female empowerment, to speak out about gun violence, and in a way, I think they're they've been a very powerful force to spur and motivate and galvanize the whole segment of the population to get more involved in the election results. The gun lobby isn't nearly as powerful a factor as it used to be in elections. I mean, maybe all the voices speaking out on that issue had some effects. So is it positive in some ways. Sure, Yeah, I think it's positive if you're using your voice to talk about vote egg and you know, gut control at people who were talking about about voter suppression and things like that. But I think, as Gas said, you know, like a spectacle of I'm showing up to the White House and getting one thing done isn't really helpful to anybody, And it really just creates a lot of noise and people arguing back and forth. And as you know, you can live by the tweet and die by the tweet. As Roseanne bar tragically showed us in two thousand eighteen, I think it was tragic that a she felt the way she felt, that she said the things she said. You know, it occupied so much space in the news cycle, right, I mean, I like, I agree with that months and it's like why it's one person is horrible. I mean, you know, even the fact it's good that Rosanne got called out on what she said, but even that swallowed so much air. I think people need to make sure before they press sent that they really consider what they're saying or what they're doing. Case in point, you know, Megan Kelly, there was a controversy on the Real Housewives of New York with Luanne as she dresses Diana Ross and she made her skin look darker than it really is, and people said that that was racist, And I don't know, I felt like, who doesn't love Diana Ross? She wants to look like Diana Ross for one day. I don't know how like that got racist on Hollow when I haven't seen it now. It wasn't on social media, but social media was what drummed up the opposition to end her talk show, which is funny, you know, because she had said that when she said that, I mean, and also it seems like that's the irony of Megan Kelly. Yeah. Yeah, she'd been saying she said way more racist stuff than victims of police violence. When John Oliver did that mash up of all the things that she had said on Fox before her show even debuted, I thought, Wow, do have to wonder did NBC look at her work before? You know, they wanted her to be a provocateur. They wanted, you know, and she is. But the thing is, and how can you be a provocateur at nine o'clock in the morning that you do not want to best in morning television? Trust me? I know this terrible her energy, her energy, which was useful on Fox News was and she was the reasonable one, you know, in relative to Fox News, and she her energy is that of a prosecutor like she She's not a good listener. That hour was successful before she joined No Fair. But it was just sort of weird to think that people and it was too African American house who were both paid less combined, well, everybody on that show that they hired her for just this wild contract that I was because she was on the cover of Vanity Fair and she was a new shiny object, a girl. True, but I think it was always weird to think that, you know, m viewers U that morning show, we're ever going to go for her bread of Fox, you know, otherwise as they would be watching Fox. Well, we can't talk about big moments the year without talking about the Royal wedding, which, on one level, although I just got to four eye rolls, I'm going to just find the Royal Wedding for a second. On one level, it was a traditional royal wedding. On another level, it was revolutionary because you had a divorced black American actress being warmly embraced and accepted by the most traditional, hide bound institution perhaps in the world outside of maybe the Saudis, as he melted any skepticism. Well, you know, Philip's sister was a Nazi. I mean like there is Nazis had a number of relatives. There was already diversity in the royal family. I mean, you know, like there, I'm not sure, I mean sure. It's like Megan Markle. I think she's like immensely like adorable and charismatic. I personally can't get behind like something like a royal wedding ever being anything like revolutionary because of how I feel about institutions and weddings. But Megan uncle is incredibly charming, And you know, I hope that the you know whatever, remember the family that wore that, you know, like Sambo brooch to Oh yeah, that was bad. But I think the look the royal family reflects the culture. They're not going to lead the culture, and it says something very good about the culture that this is where they felt they had to be when Harry decided to marry her. And let's face it, my favorite moment was when the choirs saying stand by me, and they just did not know what to do. I mean, I thought the wedding was beautiful. I love a wedding. I enjoy the fact that it was a somewhat nice fairytale story for us to talk about the mystery that but you know, yeah, they're still not it's connected to the family, you know. And she'll never be able to go outside with bare legs, no pantyhose. You know, we skirt above the knee again. You know, it's it's it's it's a mixed one. Actually, yeah, she she's got to wear pantyhose. She can't wear sports. And I wouldn't marry him for that, you know what I mean. Like she she's actually making its listened by the ghosts of colonial of but listen, maybe she will be able to usher in more change. And she's been a little um. She's spoken out and out about certain things. It's great, and so Megan like, let's get I like I like that photo of them laughing together. I thought that was really cute. All right, We've got to go over some big themes of two thousand eighteen. One big theme is diversity in movies. You know, we had crazy rich Asians, which I hated personally. I thought it was so dumb. We have black Panther, which it feel like it I know, I know, is that crazy love Simon call me by your name. So do you think that we're starting to open up in terms of our expectations and movies and how did you feel about all those kind of steps seeing the change towards diversity is feeling less like people really feeling like we need to include more voices and more lie how can we make how can we make money at the box office? But also turned existing things that we already do into money makers. You know, it's MythBuster though, because there was this idea for a long time all black person can't lead a movie, an Asian person can't headline a movie. You know that there was a sort of an economic excuse that people made, which turns out is totally false. And thank god that this year bus did that open I will say, I mean one thing, like I didn't love crazy rich Agians either, but you know, like one of the things we need, you know, every film doesn't have to be Moonlight like a genius masterpiece, like we need to let there's so many, like you know, kind of run of the mill rom coms. We need to let some of them not have only white people in it or you know, and it's a love that crazy, it's got to just be like a goofy. But also there should be many of them so that everyone's not hanging their hopes on this movie being a success. So another theme this year is reboots. What's Old is New again? Will and Grace, Murphy Brown, a star is born of the teenage, which is coming. How can we monetize this I P forever? It is kind of doesn't speak to the lack of original, new, original ideas that we have to keep going back to the well, well, I think part of it. You know, movies have to do well internationally now to make to turn a profit. That's why there's so many action movies with little dialogues, right, and you know, it's literally like, how can we maximize the money we have off of our I P by rebooting everything Like The Kings coming back, Well, that I'm excited about is incredible, but you know, I think like the era of like the all female reboot is pretty tired to me. It was pretty tired from the beginning. How do you feel about Murphy Brown coming Back? I didn't watch it. I I was brilliant brilliant, please check me out. But John barn was good though. Yeah, now I us it depends on the product, right, you know. I mean with all of these things right, you can do you can reinvent something for the sake of market performance. You can have a craven but ultimately you know, like well intentioned, you know, rationale, or you can have the like kind of dutiful. We should be awoke, now, we should be diverse. Both of those things are not They ring hollow. They ring a little more hollow to an audience than the real reason for reinventing someone, which is like the Bradley the Bradley Cooper reason for re undering stars Borne, because like, let's do it again for a deep, deep story and character based reason, Let's talk about Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade. It seems to me this was a year where people, because of these tragedies, people were starting to talk about mental health, mental illness, and suicide, and people were starting to be a little more forthcoming and honest about their own emotional demons. Do you agree, I do you know? I think that as sad as those events where they got a lot of people talking about how we view celebrity culture and how you know, social media has sort of put people's emotions bear um and it's you know, you're still sort of seeing how a celebrity can have what you think is a perfect life that they're showing you out there, but seeing so much stuff um just everywhere, might it depresses people. I think that has gotten a lot of people online talking about mental health and how social media affects us. And I think, you know, the Bourdain situation in Kate's Bay then also got us talking you know about suicide as well. Yeah, I think what I always wish for, you know, people will post the suicide hotline after these things, and what I want is for that organization to be better funded, you know. I mean because like at some point, openness is only as helpful as the resources that are available to people when they're in crisis, and we are seeing that get tripped away at it, you know, in budgets and you know, like the general sort of state of health care um and how hard it is to get for so many people. Um. You know, because talking about it is one thing. Getting the help that people needing that often doesn't isn't enough to save people. But we need people to all have access to it, and that's what I hope is the next It's been interesting for me to see people like Michael Phelps get involved with these online therapy apps, and it feels like people are much more open to saying, you know, I'm kind of fucked up. We have also, ironically, have this epidemic of loneliness despite the fact that we're more connected and on our phone. I mean, I think that's I mean, this is what social media does. It promises connection, but it only induces alienation. And I like that. I'm going to use that as my quote card on Monday. I mean, yeah, I think on Instagram, but I mean, yeah, but it's not. It's not ironic. It's not it's not like a strange coincidence. It's because these plat forms are not honest about what they do. Yet. Well, let's before we go, let's talk about two thousand nineteen and your predictions for the new year. What do you think we're going to be talking about, Uh, We're we talking about the election, definitely. Um, do you think we'll be talking about times at me too continuing to make progress or kind of fading out? Oh? Yeah, I mean there are too many people that are invested in this changing um. But I you know, I do think that the backlash against you know, this year of listening to women literally just a year, I think it may intensify, UM and I think there's a lot that might get worse. You know, this time though, it makes it really hard. I don't know if you guys have found it, but it makes it really hard to see into the future. Like the future just seems very I mean, every week is just so unpredictable and jarring and often like deeply traumatizing that you know, like when you can expect X number of shootings within the next month. You know, I think it's very hard to even imagine what a year from now will look like. Like I'm glad, but I am already glad for whatever albums know and movies like good at Yeah, but you're right, in the face of gun violence and climate change, some of this seems a little well, you know. Yeah, And I thought I interviewed like teenagers a lot for my job because I, you know, and I think it's a really interesting time to be young person in a really hard one because they're like, what how are we going to grow up in this night? I don't know. Well, hopefully there'll be some positive developments in two thousand nineteen in sort of all aspects of our lives a year from now. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. Well, Gia and Ira, thank you guys so much for coming. It was really fun to talk to you. It's time for a quick break and coming up, we're gonna be talking about the biggest names, moments, and trends and l g B t Q issues this year, and then later in the show we're going to be talking about race. We'll be right back, Brian, how did you sleep last night? Well, Katie, I slept very well because the sheets I was sleeping on were very very comfortable. Were they from Bowland Branch per chance? How did you guess they were from Bowling Branch? Because everything they make, from betting to blankets is made from pure organic cotton, which starts out super soft and it gets even softer over time. Plus my favorite part, by the way, do you think our listeners might be gathering that I'm a little on the cheap side. You can buy directly from them, so you're essentially paying wholesale prices. No wonder. They have thousands of five star reviews and Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, and Fast Company are all talking about them. Try them for thirty nights. If you don't love them, you can send them back and get a refund. Shipping is even free, but I doubt you'll want to send them back to get you started. Right now, our listeners get fifty dollars off your first set of sheets at Bowl and Branch dot com promo code Katie. Go to Bowl and Branch dot com for fifty dollars off your first set of sheets. That's Bowl be O l L not b O w L b O l L and Branch dot com promo code Katie Bowland Branch dot com promo code Katie. Now let's get back to the show. In two thousand eighteen, we saw huge milestones for the l g B t Q community, but we also saw an administration that was hostile in many ways to that community and wanted to roll back rights and protections. Honestly, Brian, I would say it was a decidedly mixed bag. Well, I agree with you on that. Katie. Here to talk to us about what happened on this front in are Dan Savage and Sarah McBride. Dan has been a guest on this show before and a terrific one, I might add. He's the host of Savage Love Cast and writes a weekly internationally syndicated column called Savage Love. He's also been an advocate for the gay community for a very long time, including when he started the amazing It Gets Better campaign back in twenty I loved Dan. I also love Sarah McBride. She's just twenty eight years old and she's had an incredible life. She came out as transgender when she was at American University, where she was the student body president. She then went on to become an advocate for her community and was the first trans person to speak at a national convention, which she spoke at the d n C in Philadelphia. Now, she's the national Press Secretary for the Human Rights Campaign and the author of a really moving memoir called Tomorrow Will Be Different. Sarah and Dan, super Jazz to have you both on the podcast, and we have a lot to cover about two thousand and eighteen and what it meant for LGBTQ people. Let's start by talking about some of the biggest names that surfaced in two thousand eighteen. Let me start with you, Sarah Beth Ford. Why was she so significant? Well, Beth Ford was the first openly gay woman to run a Fortune five hundred company, which was a huge advancement for lgbt Q representation in major companies. Obviously, Tim Cook is an incredible inspiring example over at Apple, and it's it's a reflection of the fact that l g b t Q people are increasingly rising to the top of their respective fields. And when you have openly l g b t Q people in the c suite, openly l g b t Q people running companies, it doesn't just send a great signal to future generations of LGBTQ corporate leaders, but it also changes the corporate environment, not just companies, but they're now running states, specifically Jared Polis, who is the governor elect of Colorado. Dan, we proved that we're an eclusive state that values every contribution regardless of someone's sexual orientation or gender identities. I read a tweet that said, the state where a baker refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple has just elected at a gay governor. What was your reaction to that election, Dan, I was thrilled by Jared Polis's election. Uh that night, I wish it had been matched with Stacy Abrams election in Georgia Andy Gillam's election in Florida. We don't want to leave Kate Brown off this list though. She's the governor of Oregon and she was appointed when the previous governor had to resign. But Kate Brown is bisexual and out and was elected in her own right for the first time governor of Oregon. So there were two big first for LGBT people in the gubernatorial front this election. And speaking of bisexuals, Kirston Cinema was was elected the Senator from Arizona and she's going to be the first bisexual senator, at least openly bisexual senator. Yeah, and she was one of the bright spots in the U S Senate for pro quality candidates. She ran a really competitive, difficult race in a in a tough state and pulled it out. She'll joined Tammy Baldwin as now the second openly l g B t Q United States Senator. She was in the US House prior to UH and she is a a fierce and um energetic UH public figures. I think she's gonna be a really interesting person to watch in the United States Senate. It's a positive development that people who are open about their sexuality and about their gender identification are now being elected to office. I mean, that's if there's something to cheer about. This, is it right? Absolutely? I mean the last election, everyone talks about the blue wave and the pink wave, and those were massive waves, but there was also a rainbow wave of a record number of of openly l g b t Q members of the House representatives come January, of LGBTQ people getting elected to state legislatures and city councils across the country. We now have added in addition to Dana Carome who was elected in ten and the Commonwealth of Virginia, we have my state. We now have three more transgender people who've been elect did two in New Hampshire they have a large state house with thell have two trans women. And then in Colorado they'll not have an openly transgender person in their state house. So let's talk about some of the biggest moments this year related to l g b t Q issues, not all of which are encouraging, but some of them are. One of them, um in the former category is the Department of Health and Human Services changing the legal definition of sex. The quote is the agency's proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable and determined by the genitals that a person is born with. Um, what's your reaction to that. Well, this is sadly not a surprising development, and it's obviously a report that was in the New York Times just two weeks before the last election. But it's a reflection of actions individual actions this administration has taken over the last two years of trying to roll back our progress when it comes to the growing legal consensus that LGBTQ people are protected under federal civil rights laws. Because at the end of the day, if you're discriminating against someone because of their gender identity or their sexual orientation, you're discriminating against them because of gender stereotypes, which is illegal sex discrimination. And so, just a couple of weeks after taking office, the Trump Pence administration rescinding guidance promoting the protection of transgender students under that principle. They have in different agencies sought to roll back similar protections. They filed briefs in front of the uh federal courts that assert that they don't believe federal civil rights laws protect LGBTQ workers and students and patients. So this is an incredibly dangerous action. Uh, it's not surprising that they're considering doing it more broadly, and I would have in some cases life and death consequences for LGBTQ people. And let's talk about another decision that Trump administration made, which was to include same sex partners on the census, but not to do a third row accounting of LGBTQ people. Uh. Dan, when you saw that, did you think this is kind of a mixed bag or worse than that? It definitely is a mixed bag, and it reinforces, you know, a negative kind of meme or idea or concept that only uh, same sex, only queer people who are married matter, Only people in same sex relationships who have married are important or should be counted or recognized. And that's just not true. And the biggest concern that I have, even as a queer person about the Census is the question that they've added to it ask people whether their citizens or not, which is going to result in undercounting a great number of people who are afraid to have that question put to them because they're undocumented or because they're undocumented people perhaps living in their house, so they have undocumented family members, and it's going to result in an undercount, and it's gonna result in undercounts in places where queer people tend to live in greater numbers, and so it's gonna negatively impact you know, how we're represent whether we're legal early limigrants ourselves or not. And they're a queer legal and undocumented immigrants, and that's the real threat to the census in my opinion. What about on a state level, what happened this year, say in Massachusetts and in North Carolina. So Massachusetts had a really critical race for for transgender people. Um, it became the first state in the nation where trans protections separate from protections based on sexual orientation. We're on the ballot for a public vote. And let me just start by saying, it's outrageous when a minority groups rights are ever on the ballot for a popular vote. It was absurd during the marriage equality referenda, and it was absurd in Massachusetts. But opponents of equality mustered up enough signatures to put protections for transgender people in public spaces on the ballot. Those are restaurants, hospitals, grocery stores, parks, public transportation, and of course bathrooms within those spaces. You know, we were nervous because in a lot of other places, like Houston, for instance, a couple of years ago, voters have either just barely or actually ended up rescinding protections for for transgender people when they've been put on the ballot. But fortunately Massachusetts voters came out in November on Question three and by a two to one margin voted yes on three to uphold those protections, which I think was was really positive nationally because if they had one in Massachusetts, which was certainly possible, it would have emboldened their efforts in other states to try to put trans equality on the on the ballot. So we were really fortunate to win there, But then there were some really significant results for trans equality in in other states. North Carolina is a situation where obviously Pat McCrory in lost the governor's race in large part because of HB two, the bill that tried to ban trans people from restrooms consistent with our gender identity. The new governor signed into into law a bill that took away some parts of that bill but still kept in place ban on localities passing protections for transgender people in restaurant hims UM statewide, so it's there's still an issue. They're basically saying, you couldn't pass laws protecting trans people from using the bathroom that that was consistent with their gender identity right. They took away the affirmative mandate to discriminate, but kept in place the ban on on localities protecting LGBTQ people from discrimination UM and specifically trans people in bathrooms perpetually UM. In Texas though they had a bathroom bill that didn't pass, but the five main sponsors ended up losing reelection this past cycle, voters are coming forward and they're saying, this is absurd that you were trying to ban transgender people from restrooms. It's absurd you're spending your time and energy trying to do this. We'd much rather have elected officials who represent the interests of everyone and who focus on issues that matter, not some made up bathroom predator myth. Well, there's an interesting parallel to the marriage Clauda movement where it was put onto the ballot in many states and we lost, and we lost and we lost until we won. And what you saw with the losses on marriage equality when there were votes, was the needle moving closer and closer and closer that the more we have this discussion, the more we have this debate, the more people came around and change their positions. And on queer rights, what we often or almost invariably see is people coming around to supporting queer rights. So it's a it's kind of this you know, exploding cigar that right wing bigots keep lighting and sticking in their own mouths like, oh, we're going to force this onto a ballot, We're gonna have a vote, and yeah, they win a few of those until they don't. It is I agree with Sarah of debate. We should not have to have the rights of a minority should never be put onto the ballot and subject to a popular vote. Um Our rights are sacred, sacred's acting should be protected. Uh. That said, this strategy of THEIRS has proved in the long run to be a disaster for their side. And Dan, you know, Sarah and I both attended the service where Matthew Shepherd's remains were interred at Washington National Cathedral and in a way, this twenty a year anniversary of Matthew's horrific brutal death was a good reminder of how gay people were treated just twenty years ago. It was profoundly moving for me personally, I think because I've gotten to know Judy and Dennis Shephard very well over the years, and I covered that story and I'm curious how you felt about that moment. Well, I was, of course tremendously moved and then tremendously heartbroken to to learn and I wasn't aware of this that for the last twenty years, Matthew Shephard's parents have been afraid to inter him anywhere because they believed that his grave site would attract bigots and would be defaced. And that for twenty years they felt that they couldn't lay matthew drest in a public space was really heartbreaking. And you know, as a you know, a gay guy myself who grew up in a religious family. What kind of blew my mind most about it was they found a safe space for his remains, and it was a church, because the church was the last place I ever felt safe, particularly when I was Matthew's age. I didn't feel safe in churches. So that was sort of a mind blowing, unexpected development in that case, um and really very healing. I have to say though, that you know this isn't just how gay people were tweeted twenty years ago, that there are still gay people in lesbians and bisexual people and trans people who are attacked and murdered today. Just at a good point, Yeah, gay man was shot on the face on a street corner in Manhattan by an anti gay bigot who had come into town specifically for that purpose, to to to find a gay person and harm them. What was even more moving was the first gay episcopal bishop actually presided over the service and delivered the homily and talked very candidly about his experience. And he's so wonderful. So three things I want to say to Matt gently, rest in this place. You are safe now. Oh yeah, and Matt, welcome home. I'm in He is amazing. Gene Robinson is just one of the most kindest, most compassionate people him I've ever met um. And and it's it's interesting and I think not all surprising that the first moments where he teared up during his remarks before his homily was when he talked about how he knows so many people in that space, so many LGBTQ people in that cathedral had been harmed and traumatized by the church, but that they were welcomed and they were home. So he addressed what you were talking about, Dan head On, and it was really quite remarkable to see and to hear. At the same time as this extraordinary service happened, we've also seen over the course of eighteen a disturbing increase in hate crimes directed at LGBTQ people UM, as well as racial minorities and religious minorities. One instance of this that struck me was the murder of Blaze Bernstein, who's a student who was a student at Penn. He was gay and Jewish and targeted by a member of a neo Nazi group who also happened to be a former classmate of his in Orange County. UM, Dan, what do you attribute this increase in hate crimes too? And this is for both of you. What can we all do about it? I attributed to the great disinhibitor, which is Donald Trump. UM. He has given people license to act out on their worst impulses. He's legitimized hatred in the public square, and he is brought to a boil. People's were distincts and impulses, you know, really brought the worst out of the worst. It's incredibly distressing. Uh. And Donald Trump deserves to have the blame for the spike and hate crimes laid at his feet, and the entire Republican Party and punditry class of the Republican Party, all of them should be held accountable for what they have done to our democracy, for the for the poisons that they have pumped into our body politics. Do you agree, Sarah, Yeah, I think I think Dan's absolutely right. I think that what we have seen over the last two to three years is an increase almost across the board in hate based violence and harassment. In the aftermath of the last election, the Southern Poverty Law Center found hundreds of hate based harassment and violent incidences occurring across the country in just the weeks after we did a survey. The Human Rights Campaign did a survey of tens of thousands of of youth around the country and they overwhelmingly reported an increase in bullying and harassment during the school day in the lead up to one in the aftermath of the last election. Every single time you see UH, Donald Trump and Mike Pence release another anti LGBTQ policy, there's a spike in calls to suicide hotlines. We at the Human Rights Campaign released a report documenting the last year in in deaths within the transgender community. Some of those deaths are a result of explicit hate crimes. Others are very clearly a result of forces and and and discrimination and hatred conspiring to push people into circumstances where they're more likely to face violence. UH this year, at least twenty two transgender people have died through fatal violence, and I think to the steps that we can take. Obviously, there's a number of different steps legally that we can take, in terms of more states passing inclusive hate crimes laws, in terms of law enforcement making sure that they're trained and able to interact competently with LGBTQ populations, because if you don't feel comfortable contacting or engaging with law enforcement, you're less likely to be safe from violence. When it comes to um securing their protection, teachers and educators I think play a massive role in this. It's about making sure our schools are more welcoming, that we are nipping this in the bud because hate, at the end of the day, is learned, and if we are creating more inclusive and welcoming schools, that will go a long way. While there have been some positive strides made in greater representation that we discussed earlier in our conversation, I also look at television and film and I am heartened by the greater representation of LGBTQ people. For example, Love Simon about a young gay man queer. I I mean, if that's not a celebration of being gay and being human, I don't know what is. Also, you know, I would add to that list is drag Race, which for ten years has been the one place on TV where you could see working class gay guys. Gay guys have been to prison in non native English speakers, immigrants here are gay guys, poor people who are gay guys, also gender not conforming and trans people. So much long live Root, Paul, because you know, one of the criticisms that you hear of representations of queer people on television if they're all gay, white, upper middle class men. And drag Race for ten years has been a place where you can see the real diversity of the game mail and not just the game mail community and pose which has an incredible cast of so many trans folks of color, particularly black transgender women, people are being educated by the shows they're watching. For example, boy erased, I have yet to see that film, but it's all about conversion therapy for so long. I remember actually covering stories twenty years ago on the Today's Show and people talking about conversion therapy. I think even in the case of Matthew Shepard, it still goes on. It's still a problem, very much so, and one of the one of the actual few uh areas of I think significant progress legislative fully that we saw this past year was actually in more and more states passing protections for LGBTQ youth against the abusive practice known as conversion therapy. Do we have any sense of how many people are still in conversion therapy programs? You know, it's difficult to say for sure, but there are some studies that have documented. A report by the uh U c L. A. Williams Institute found that roughly seven hundred thousand LGBTQ Americans have been subjected to conversion therapy and that currently they estimate roughly twenty thousand lgbt Q youth are being subjected to conversion therapy around the country, and I get letters at my advice column every day from queer kids who were subjected to conversion therapy. Recently, I've heard from people just in the last week, one kid in the last week who's currently seeing a therapist that his parents are compelling him to see who is attempting to do conversion therapy on him. Sarah, Looking ahead, there are some positive things we can anticipate. In two thousand nine teen, same sex marriage will be legalized in Austria, Costa Rican, Taiwan, and it will be the fiftieth anniversary of Stone Wall. So what are your thoughts on both of those things. Well, I think on the first point, I think it's a reflection of the fact that equality is on the march, not just here in the United States, but around the globe. That this is a global movement, that LGBTQ people exists in every corner of this country and every part of the globe, and that we in doing so our opening hearts and changing minds, not just in blue states, not just in the United States of America, but in countries around the world, and that equality is inevitable with hard work. I think the second point around this is the fiftieth anniversary of Stonewall. It's an important point for us to sit back and reflect on our progress, because with all of the attacks we're seeing, it's easy to get bogged down in the negativity. It's easy to lose sight of the horizon, and it's easy to forget just how far we've come. But the reality is in fifty years fifty years ago at the Stone Wall in if you were to have told the folks they're the transgender women of color, the gay patrons, what would come in the next five decades, It would have seemed so impossible that it would have been almost incomprehensible. And the fact that we have marriage equality in every corner of this nation. The fact that we have seen the proliferation of nondiscrimination protections and protections against conversion therapy and so many places across this country. The fact that a young gay kid was able to go to sleep on a Friday night in June of two thousand and fifteen having just seen the symbol of our country, the White House, light up like a rainbow. The fact that I get to meet young transgender kids were doing what seemed impossible to me just ten years ago. They are both living their truth and dreaming big dreams, all at the same time demonstrates how far we've come, and that we have transformed in possibility into possibility into reality. And that is our challenge to never be pacified by our progress, but always recognize just how far we've come. We can't be complacent though. We used to live in a country of the Voting Rights Act, and then we don't, you know, we secured through the Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade, abortion rights as a fundamental constitutional right that's been assailed and under attack and is pretty much non operative or unoperative in many parts of the country. We have to defend our gains. I'm not suggesting that, Sarah, you were sing that we rest on our laurels and we should take moments to marvel at how far we've come, because just recognizing the progress that you've made, you know, it inspires you to keep pushing to make more progress. But we also constantly have to fight a rearguard action in this country to defend the rights we've won. I also feel like the much maligned Millennials are a real reason to hope. I see such a difference in attitude among people in their twenties, my daughters who are both twenty two, and I mean it, or millennials too, by the way, Yes, sorry, sorry, but I really do see such a sea change in attitude, such a generational difference. And I don't know about you, Dan and Sarah, but that gives me real hope, does it you? Dan? It does you know? Sometimes I think about my own nieces and nephews, like we're really sealing with the millennials, the first generation of adults who grew up with openly gay, openly lesbian, buying, trans friends and family members, who were incorporated and welcomed as themselves and entirely welcomed and loved and embraced by their families and their communities. That psyches me out, gives me help, And it's a credit to all the people who came out when it wasn't easy or possible to be out or as out as people are able to be today. We wouldn't be here but for the queer as a stone wall who picked up the bricks and through them. And I think we need more people who stand up, and not just within the community, but outside the community. And I hope you know that you have always have an ally in me and in Brian, so thank you both so much for coming in. Thank you, thank you how much for having Thank you very much. Guys. We'll take a quick break and then we'll speak with Chamel Bowie and Maria Inajosa about the year in Race that's right after this. America is changing and along with those changes, a lot of people are facing huge financial challenges. Brian So Prudential and financial wellness expert Alexandra Draine are traveling across America to learn more about the changing financial landscape in a new project called The State of Us. Alexandra has devoted her career to inspiring people to lead healthier, happier, and more engaged lives, and over twenty years, she's consulted with leaders and influential thinkers all across the globe. You can join her as she partners with Prudential and they travel across the country talking to people from the town with the longest lifespan of the town with the highest birth rate to the smallest town in America. Today, less than half of us believe we're on track to meet our financial goals, and the State of US is working to uncover the challenges that are getting in the way of financial wellness, and they're teaching us how to fight them. Because while our financial challenges may feel greater than previous generations, they are not insurmountable. So to learn more about the financial challenges facing our country, you can visit Prudential dot com slash State of US. That's Prudential dot com slash State of US. Now back to the podcast for our last segment today, we're talking about what this year meant for race relations in the United States. Joining us for this conversation Jamal Bowie and Maria and Ajosa. Jamal is the chief political correspondent for Slate and a political analyst for CBS News, and he's also a uv A alum had. It's like we stacked the deck with wa who's today? Anyway, we know Jamal is the real deal because he still lives in Charlottesville. Wow, now you're my third favorite uv Alm Katie. Oh my god, I'm kidding. I'm sorry. We're also speaking to Maria in a Hosta, the longtime host and executive producer of the public radio show Latino USA. Maria also hosts a PBS show called Maria in a host So one on one She's won Emmy's and peabodies for her work. She's a very distinguished journalist. We began our conversation by talking about one of the biggest and most high profile personalities of the year, Colin Kaepernick. Jamal, I'm curious about what you think Colin Kaepernick did in terms of advancing African Americans and some of the issues that we're facing in terms of phrase this year. Kaepernick does a fair amount of charity work, and he's been a vocal spokeperson African and issues of police brutality and police violence. But I think the more significant thing about Kaepernick is not so much what he has done in more acts, that he is the public face of this new Nike campaign. And I think it's significant because the brand at least believes that what Kaepernick stands for is likely to be the mainstream position the mainstream politics at some point in the not too distant future, or the likely position of people who are buying Nike products. Right. I mean, were you surprised when that was announced, When suddenly we saw that portrait of Colin Kaepernick everywhere is the face of Nike. I was surprised because I do think it represents something of a risk. There will be some consumers, some people who will not want to purchase Nike products now that Colin Kaepernick is the face of the brand, but it is. I think again, it's very significant, and I think that sends a signal or it may suggest where American culture is going in how perhaps five or ten years down the road. But appears to be a divisive issue today, is very likely not going to be astibusive um in part because of the demographics of the country and where those are growing. Let's talk about Serena Williams. She became a huge story when at the US Open she expressed her anger out on the tennis court. I don't cheat. I didn't get I didn't say it. You own a police. I have never cheated in my life. I have a daughter, and I staid it's my heart. I've never seaten. And the intersection of sports and gender, I think was so clear with the Serena Williams incident and chaml for you as you watched the conversation. I remember watching that match, watching Serena and just seeing it explode on social media. What struck you about not only what Serena did during the US Open, but the reaction I mean, I think the reaction um to Williams's actions, and specifically from her defenders, I think shows the extent to which Serena Williams is almost transcended tennis as a figure in popular culture that people. And I wasn't following it too closely, but I was following way closely enough to notice that some of the people who were vocally defending Serena Williams weren't even big tennis fans, but they were fans of her. They were fans of what she represents um, and they saw this as profound disrespect to a woman who arguably is the reason anyone cares about women's tennis in the first place. There is a sense and the reaction sort of how dare you disrespect this person who has done a lot for the sport and who does a lot for us by virtue of what she represents and how she carries herself and who she is. America Ferrera is another name, Marie I think, who had really came out in a very sort of strong way about sexual harassment. She was a key figure in the Times Up movement. She edited a book. How important was her high profile this year? You know, America did stand out because she's you know, she's kind of everywhere. She's on television, she's writing the book. We all know she had a baby. You know, we're kind of following her. But America has been she's been owning her voice for a while. So she was very prominent in the Hillary Clinton campaign. She was a very prominent activist for the Democratic Party and has been and and in many ways, you're right. What she did in terms of times up was that she was helping to make this beyond a movement. It was like, what do we stand for? Creating a whole legal defense and education fund, kind of really trying to understand how you tackle this from a strategic and structural place as opposed to just protest. So that's kind of America thinking really strategic. Lee. I think she also got a lot of street cred because I think for her, because she is Latino, talking about really expanding this whole movement outside of Hollywood and talking about people who are working on factory floors, who are working uh in homes, who are working as clerks and stores. I mean, I feel like for whatever reason, that seemed to resonate in a way that didn't necessarily resonate when you looked at a white actress talking about these issues, right, because what she was saying is, if you think about women being sexually harassed in Hollywood, think about the women who picked the grapes or the blueberries or the raspberries that you're eating. The bigger connection for me, though, Katie, is that, um, what America kind of symbolizes in ten is the many, many, many Latinos who are owning their voice and owning their power. And we've all witnessed this, right. So for example, there's moment in the elevator with Senator Jeff Flake on Monday, I still in front of your office with Addie Martin. I told the story of my sexual assault. I told them because I recognize the report story that she's telling that you what you're doing is allowing someone who actually violated in a woman to sit in the Supreme Court. That was Anna Maria Chilau. After that, sure, we all did. We were all, you know, like, hey, and I've actually known Ana for years because she gets to that point of being able to step in that elevator because of the fact that she's been trained as an activist, because she's an immigrant rights activist, So you see how people are making the connection she's taking on the issue of sexual violence. But she was trained as an activist because she's an immigrant rights activist, and her own story is so compelling to what happened to her when she was just five five years old, and she didn't speak about that for a long, long, long time. But like Anna Maria Chila, then you'd have to say, well, Emma Gonzalez, Ama Gonzalez from Parkland, who you know was leading the March for Our Lives, this is another young Latina who has changing the way we're thinking about politics. And then of course that ends up in the mid terms with Alexander Cortez and many other Latinas who are entering Congress. Latina's were making these quote unquote intersectional connections. It's a difficult word, but we're making the connections between how we who we are as Americans, who we are as as people engaged in American politics in my view as a as a journalist, and we're saying we have something very particular to bring and to add to the conversation. Well, Maria, you segued us very nicely from biggest names to biggest moments and perhaps the biggest moment of the year was the mid term election. And Jamale, I'm curious about the role that you think race played. What's your assessment. Yeah, I think the story of raising these elections a little complicated in the You can think of it from several different perspectives. The first was just the fact that the President kind of wrapped up his mid term message with UM fearmongering about a group of asylum seekers heading for the United States border and referring to them as sort of this rapidly approaching threat that will overwhelm American borders and destroyed communities and so on and so forth, and all of this was not true, and there's there's quite a bit of great journalism debunking the president essentially. But I think the effect of that messaging, which I think you could accurately describe as as race baiting UM ended up likely juicing enough rule turnout that the Republican Party could hold on or flip Senate seats in Florida, could win in Indiana as well, could help be Claire mccashkill in Missouri, and essentially keep the Senate from falling out of Republican hands. Now in the end. You know, the Republican Party began this Congress with fifty two senators. It will end this congress with fifty three senators, so um or begin the next one. So the net effect um wasn't that great, but it's still meaningful that the party was able to hold on to the Senate in the face of real democratic energy and um public discontent. So that's that's the first way I think race played a part in the elections. The second way is the fact that Democratic primary voters seemed to have a real appetite for diverse candidates. And I think most of the narrative around this has been in terms of women broadly as a class, But if you look just a little deeper, you see it's specifically women of color and so A. Kasia Cortez in New York, Ianna Pressley in Massachusetts, UM deb holland UH Lauren Underwood in Illinois. And what striking is they don't necessarily represent majority minority districts. Many of these candidates represent majority white districts. Most racially tolerant whites are becoming Democrats, and at least racially tolerant whites are becoming Republicans. And this is reshaping the electorate along lines that aren't exactly even it was very exciting for Latina women with Alexandria Occasio Cortez, you have Veronica Escobar, Sylvia Garcia and by the way, a record forty three Latinos will be serving in Congress in two thousand nineteen. So why such a change do you think this go around? So Latinos and Latinos, it looks like they kind of got the message. I've been very concerned because you know, Katie, So the joke is is that I'm a Mexican, so I have sixteen jobs. One of those sixteen jobs is that I'm a professor. So I'm with young people, and I've been very concerned feeling their kind of exasperation with the electoral politics. Um and so I was very concerned, arned about what was going to happen with the mid terms because when we turn out, yeah, in terms of turnout, because if you are consistently attacked, does that make you feel like, Okay, let me go and vote. And I do think that one of the big stories of this moment is and if you look at Texas as an example, the Latino Latina turnout in Texas and the activism around Uh, you know, whether it was for for Betto or Rourg or for the other Latinos and Latinos who got elected from the state of Texas. Everybody had been saying, you know, when is it going to happen? When when is it going to happen? In terms of Latino Latina turn out, well, I think we're seeing in real life and Jamal. Before we wrap up our discussion of the mid term elections, we also saw two huge stars in the Democratic Party, both African Americans UH run and lose races for governor just by a hair Stacy Abrahams and Georgia Andrew Gillham in Florida. Allegations of voters suppression around both races. We're do you think we go from here in terms of those two individuals as well as sort of the the broader challenge of making sure that everyone who wants to vote gets their vote counted. Well, As far as those two individuals it is concerned, I think they both have very bright futures. Um Gillum in particular, went from being the mayor of Tallhassee, which is no small thing, to being a nationally known grouper natorial candidate and did so almost by surprise. He won his primary, striking victory from behind that no one really saw coming, and he came closest to winning a grouper in Troyal racist Democrat in Florida uh since the two thousands. And so although he lost his race, the Florida electorate also repealed uh felon disenfranchisement from most felons in the state. And so that's one point four million and disitional people added to in the pool of potential voters. And you can imagine in twenty two a concerted effort to get some portion of the people registered and ready to vote for a second run from Guillam. So I don't think this is the last we've seen of him. Abrams likewise, and I'll say I think you know, Abrams ended her race with a concessan spiece that wasn't really a concession speech. It was a speech essentially saying that this was not a fair election, that my opponent, who served as Secretary of State for Georgia responsible for administering elections, did everything you can, both in this election and in prior cycles to remove people from the ballot, and specifically people who vote for Democrats, hundreds of thousands that people were moved from the roles over the course of just a few years, um far more than you'd expect given just population change. The case Abrams made to her voters into the public at large was that something needs to be done about this, and instead of, you know, slinking into the night, I'm going to use my campaign infrastructure. I'm going to use my connection to Georgian politics. I'm going to use my past organization building to spearhead and effort to reverse these attempts to restrict access to the ballot. And so I think Abrahams will very much be in not just Georgia politics, but national politics for the foreseeable or for the near future. And I think her approach to this, I think will be replicated in other states by other Democrats. Let's step out of politics and talk about a few other key moments that happened this year. I'm reminded of Papa John's CEO, John Schnatter, stepping down after using the N word during a training call, and Megan Kelly talking about blackface uh and Halloween costumes and summarily being fired for those comments. And yet Jamal one of Donald Trump's biggest applause lines is to attack political correctness. And I saw a poll recently in which is significant number of Democrats bemoan the rise of political correctness. Do you think that we've overreacted to some of the bad words or even bad deeds that people in public life have have made, or do you think that this whole movement is kind of an appropriate uh staff and reaction to abuses that have gone on for far too long. The interesting thing about that political correctness poll was that and I think it's showed something like eighty percent of Americans didn't like political correctness, but didn't define political correctness, and so it's this very vague definition of a somewhat vague term um that has a negative connotation. But having said that, I think that behavior by individual people in society follows norms, follows elite signals, follows larger political culture, and a political culture in which open bigotry doesn't receive any particular sanction, I think can create a situation where down the line people feel more comfortable expressing forms of bigotry. And I think, you know, one consequence of of the election of President Trump has been that in the American society of that people have become more open to voicing racially biased opinions and other kinds of bigoted opinions because you know, the President United States voices them too. And there has been an uptick in biased crimes against Jewish Americans, against Black Americans, against immigrants again tell TBT Americans, and so these seems are real, right, Like, this isn't It isn't the case that people are getting offended over irrelevant or trivial things. So one of the most horrifying moments or stories this year was the fourth separation of migrant kids from their parents at the border. And the deadline has now passed to reunite children with their parents, but there are still hundreds of families who have not been reunited. Um Maria and Jamal, you've both reported on this story. Will the Trump administration ever successfully fixed the problem that they've created here? So this is not a problem that is only a problem to the Trump administration. In other words, what we have to recognize is that children have been being taken from their families um at the border for a long time. In fact, if you kind of do a pullback, I'm just going to go really really wide historically for you guys, because I needed to do this myself to kind of understand. And children were being taken from their parents as Africans because we were told in this country that they were property. Native children were taken away because they were seen as an uneducated or savage. UM. Children were taken from their parents, UM when they were put into so called internment camps. So the uptick in terms of immigration was something that you know, under the Trump administration has taken a different turn. So zero tolerance, UM, you know, created by this administration and by Jeff Sessions, UM, was all about that exactly, zero tolerance and we will take your children, and that's going to be an act of punishment. I think one of the things that was really horrifying for me to hear was when I was down reporting actually about a Latino man who runs the shelters where these children are being placed. And our story on Latino USA was, you know, the moral dilemma of Juan Sanchez. You know, he's sheltering these children, but he's also making a profit off of doing this, and UM, the fact that that we have to recognize that there is a different way of looking at this. We're talking about family separation. That's a very scientific, clinical way to talk about children being ripped out of the arms of their parents. So I do think though that this moment of seeing children in cages, of hearing those cries, this is something that will not be forgotten in UM and I do think that we will see what happens in terms of the presidential elections. But immigration actually didn't used to be the most important issue for a lot of people. This president has actually made it one of the most important issues, and not necessarily because people want to build a wall, but because now they care about what's happening, and that that maybe, as we say in Spanish, which is like get backfired on Donald Trump, people care now because he's kind of exposed how brutal it can be. Are there still children who remained separated from their parents? Because the news cycle is so fast, I feel that that story has come and gone and people are not their mind. No, no, no, there are. And what's different now is that, UM, we have fourteen thousand children right now being held by this government. Immigrant children. Some of those children came on their own, in other words, the parents couldn't even afford to come themselves and simply said to their kids in the kind of Sophie's choice, go go and find safety. So some of those are those kids. Others are children who are still being separated. So we have more to ldren now being held by this government who are immigrants than at any other time. And one of the reasons why they continue to be held is because when family members want to come and take the children, family members who are undocumented have been picked up by Ice. When they're trying to come and pick up these children. That's we have to open our eyes to how horrific this kind of the ice industrial complex has become. But it seems to me immigration reform is really necessary because you do kind of understand that you can't have completely poor completely it's completely necessary to just crazy like come up with a plan that works and some kind of process that works, and some kind of humane way to treat people who are seeking asylum. I mean, it just seems like a big mess, Maria. It does. It is a big mess. And and sadly, Donald Trump, because of his rhetoric this this has really made it feel like a police state for undocumented immigrants and for many immigrants. Um. But it didn't start with him. It was President Bill Clinton who signed these laws into effect. In they were ramped up under George W. Bush. President Obama could have done immigration reform in the first one days when they had the House in the Senate, he chose not to. And President Barack Obama, a constitutional lawyer, was overseeing the massive deportation of more people than any other president in history. So it is a collective responsibility. It is on everyone's shoulders, but sadly it has gotten incredibly worse under the Trump administration. Do you think Jamal in two thousand nineteen, we'll see Congress try to tackle this or will it basically never be dealt with? May thing. There's certainly an appetite among um Democratic lawmakers, some newly like the Democratic lawmakers to um craft a humane solution to the problem of people living in the United States who do not have documentation. And I think it's sort of important to frame that as being kind of that the grand issue of immigration reform. Border crossings are at an all time low, right and even there there hasn't even been a significant increase in asylum seekers. We have sort of procedures for asylum seekers that aren't being overwhelmed. Um they they they are orderly. UM. The sense that the border is somehow being besieged by um sort of large numbers of asylum seekers and immigrants is something President Trump likes to put forth to help his political agenda, but doesn't really reflect the truth of the situation. What we do have are ten eleven million people in the United States who do not have documentation, who have stable lives, who have jobs, who have families, and uh. Most Americans believe that they should have some pathway to legal status and citizenship, and that is the issue. UM. And while they're I think there is a consensus among Democrats about trying to create a path the citizenship for those people, there is no consensus among Republicans. And as long as that's the case, the only hope for getting some sort of conference of immigration reform is if Democrats once again hold a trifecta of the House, the Senate, and the White House. To me, the connection has to be kind of because I was thinking about language and hate speech and you know, kind of political correctness. You know, the word illegal to refer to a human being is something that has been it's kind of normalized in our country for a lot of people. Myself included. That feels like hate speech. Um, and you know, the person who taught me never to refer to a human being as illegal was l VZL, survivor of a Holocaust. He said, never referred to a human being as illegal. That is the first thing that the Nazis did. If you're calling them illegal, then there you're dehumanizing them. Then their lives don't really matter. Then they themselves are an illegal entity. Then it's okay. If you're housing them like this, then it's okay. If you're taking away their children, then it's okay. If you're separating and ripping up families. I know it's smell. It feels really small. But in some ways, part of what we can do to lessen the fear of this moment is in fact to think about the words. So looking ahead to two thousand nineteen, to to wrap things up, Chamal and Maria, what would you like to see happen? And are you optimistic any of it will? I am incredibly optimistic right now because I feel like after these mid terms we have seen something that I feel like there's hope for American democracy. We're not going anywhere, none of us, right, And so in that sense, UM. I'm hopeful that people feel very alive, they feel very woke, if you will, and UM, and they feel engaged. And that is something that you can't put a dollar sign on, right, That is something that we are all living and experiencing. It's been a really challenging but I think the other side of it is that people are saying, boy, we're tired, but we're not staying quiet. And that's what a democracy looks like. And that's that's wonderfully exciting. What I think will be interesting will be to see how our public conversations around race and racism and bias are different when you have a new sort of generation of young leaders of color UM able to jump into the mix and make their voices heard. One thing that I remain astounded by is uh incoming Rep. Alexander Kaja Cortez's ability to sort of command media attention, UM and to to make her to insert herself into the conversation and drive it in a particular direction. And as if with with voices like her in the mix and others UM, I think some of the you know, cultural and political flashpoints of the past two years will play out very differently next year. Just by virtue of the fact that there are different kinds of people with different kinds of priorities and interests responding to them. So that will be interesting to watch. Some how how will play out, but it'll be very interesting to watch. And as you said, people like Stacy Abram's being out of the mix, but staying in the mix, right, you know, making sure that these issues don't recede, but they stay in the forefront um. And I do think I said it earlier when we had a conversation about the LGBTQ community. This younger generation is not going to tolerate a lot of things, and I think that's very heartening. They're going to keep the conversation going and keep attention on some of these issues, and they're going to be like a dog with a bone, They're not going to let it go. Jamal and and Maria, thank you all for coming to our podcast and discussing the state of race relations. Is complicated and broad as that topic is, but certainly a lot is happened this year, and I think a lot of consciousness has been raised and people are more woke than ever, as they say, and I think that's a good thing me too. Thank you so much, Thank you, Thank you guys. That does it for us today, Brian. The podcast dream team is producer Emma Morgenstern, Associate producer Nora Richie, and audio engineer Jared O'Connell. Special thanks to Brendan Burns at Earwolf l A for recording me, as well as Jamal Milner. A special thanks to Beth de Mos, my assistant, Julia Lewis, the social media prodigy, and Jen Brown who helps us book guests here on the podcast. Jared Arnold composed our theme music. You can find me on Twitter at goldsmith b and Katie continues to be an influencer of epic proportions on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter and especially Instagram as what else Katie Kerr don't forget snap. If you have thoughts about the show or questions for us, please reach out. Our email address is comments at current podcast dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail by calling nine to nine to two four four six three seven. Thanks as always for listening. We'll talk to you next week. This podcast is happily sponsored by a d T. 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It's Gabby Gabby Done, host of Add with Money. I had the Bad with Money book come out in January. I'm super stoked for season four. This season, we're going back to our roots and I'm having long conversations with amazing people and getting the big picture about money and the economy. Do you like intersectional, queer, social justice based money podcasts. This is the only one, so get into it. Did you earn it? You deserve to be like a billionaire when somebody who's working as a janitor or working in Walmart, or teacher or a teacher, yeah certainly, or a teacher who may be working just as many hours as you, may be just as smart as you like. Does that make it okay that you have so much? I get paid once a month, so my my check accounts huge. It's like a tidal wave comes in and then on the second it's empty again. Oh my god, speaking my language. Bad with Money is back now for season four. Listen in stitch, your Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.