Social media is supposed to help us connect with one another and reduce loneliness, but what if the opposite is true? Psychologist Jean Twenge just wrote a piece in The Atlantic asking, “Have smartphones destroyed a generation?” She joins Katie and Brian to discuss the costs and consequences of endless screen time. Twenge is an expert on what she calls "iGen," those born between 1995 and 2012. She explains the pros and cons of an all-digital world and breaks down the research on smartphones and mental health. Plus, the surprising benefits of boredom.
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Hi. My name is Maddie. I'm thirteen and I'm from Green Day, Wisconsin. What's up, guys. My name is Connor Blakeley. I'm eighteen years old and I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I thought y'all's Facebook post about whalming teenagers to talk about their smartphones. I've heard a smartphone since I was probably in kindergarten our first grade. I think social media and our smartphones canna be really positive because in the palm of our hand, we're able to communicate with one another. I have an iPhone five and I use it every day. It makes me feel independent, and having it with me helps make me feel like I'm not missing anything important. I'd say I use it around seven eight hours a day, mostly for connecting with my friends through Instagram, Snapchat, text messages, and phone calls. Um man, my friends. What we like the most about smartphones is the fact that we can get anything whenever we want it, how we want it, whether it's trying to figure out plans or how we're going to order food, to figure out where we're about to go out to eat. I think that it's I used to have an escape from reality for a moment. But at the same time, I feel like if we had never had phone, we would be a lot more connected to the outside world. People are way too consumed sometimes with sharing the experience that they're living. I often times find myself looking at all my friends during a concert taking a snapchat of Kendrick Lamar. Well, I'm the only one who's like actually looking at Kendrick, trying to authentically experience it so I can have that memory. I think technology is cool, but it's also important to take a break as well. I do take technology breaks, but yeah, I'm on my smartphone a ton. Hi. I'm Katie and I'm addicted to my iPhone. Hi Katie. Yes, I know we're impersonating an a meeting, but Brian, I think a lot of people around the country have the same problem I do. I'm on my iPhone constantly checking it incessantly and basically wasting endless amount of time on it. Yeah. I had a very sad experience the other day where I actually got a spasm between my thumb and my pointer finger just because I'm holding my iPhone all the time. I'm basically like reshaping the muscular chur in my hand. Actually, that's not that funny, because do you know that a lot of kids. They're seeing a lot of neck problems among adolescents because of the way they're constantly looking at their iPhones. Well, clearly we're obsessed with this topic, and I think a lot of other people are, including a psychologist named Gene Twangy. Gene has just written a book called Eigen Why today's super connected kids are growing up less rebellious, more tolerant, less happy, and completely unprepared for adulthood and what that means for the rest of us. I don't know how they fit that title on a book, Brian. It's more of a chapter than a title, exactly. It's It's also the subject of the latest cover story in the Atlantic, which is really fascinating, and so we talked to Jean particularly about how these trends have affected young people who are working less, dating less, sleeping less. They're taking four times as many antidepressants as the generation before them, so it's had a really profound impact on their brains and their personalities. There are some positive effects for this uber connected generation, but many negative, as you mentioned, Brian, So to hear more, to learn more, here's our conversation with Gene Twangy, a professor of psychology at San Diego State University. I don't know if you've seen it. This isn't my daughter, but it could have been the video of a two year old trying to swipe through a paper magazine and she can't figure out why it's not working. It's just incredible, isn't it. And I think a lot of parents are concerned about screen time. And it's not just screen time in and of itself. It's really the impact of how this is affecting our social relationships. And when you say I generation little, I what age are you talking about? So right now, I gen is those ages five to two, So it's a pretty broad swath. Um, it's those to That latter date might be revised later on and we find out more about this generation and their characteristics, but that beginning date of folks who are born then in the mid nineties, they spent their entire adolescents with smartphones. I mean, one of the I think the fascinating parts of this article you wrote that draws from your book is that there are a lot of positive changes that this generation has experienced. I mean, today's kids are physically safer, they have sex lator, they used rugs less. So it's really been a mixed bag in terms of what the what the impacts are. Right, And a lot of those trends that you're mentioning are not as connected to smartphones. They're part of a much more general trend of um children and teens growing up more slowly so taking on the both the privileges and the pleasures of adulthood later than they used to. Why is that happening? I'm curious, Jean, I'm I'm surprised actually to hear you say that, because to me, kids aren't having a childhood. They're being pushed academically at school. Uh, they're being subjected to all sorts of sexual imagery that uh some have even theorized that's bringing on puberty earlier. So I'm curious, why what evidence you have that they are kind of delaying adulthood. Right, They're exposed to lots of things on line. You're absolutely right, the age of puberty has gone down. The academic pressure part um. Actually, eighth graders do significantly less homework now than they did in the same thing for tenth graders and twelfth graders. That's actually a really important thing. To keep in mind throughout this conversation. It comes up a lot so for them growing up slowly. I looked at the data on eighth graders, tenth graders, twelfth graders, so UM, middle school, and high school students to see how often or whether at all they did things that adults do that children don't. Being a teen is a time of transition. You start doing things that adults do, things like driving, working, dating, going out without your parents, having sex, drinking alcohol. All of those activities have gone down. Teens are less likely to do all of those things than they were even ten years ago. But isn't that directly related, Jane, to technology? Because it seems to me they're driving less because they can call an uber, or they are going out less because they can talk on you know, video chat or whatever. And they are having sex less because they're actually physically with people less. I'm sure they're probably sexting more and having actual sex less. So isn't aren't all these trends connected to iPhone use or computer use in general. So there definitely are some connections to technology. For you know, some of the reasons that you mentioned that they can keep in touch with friends without going out of the house. UM, Uber is probably not a factor because you can't use Uber until you're eighteen plus. These trends in terms of driving and driver's licenses show up in rural areas where Uber is not available. UM. But technology does have an influence. It probably accelerated some of these trends. But um these trends have been heading in that direction before smartphones were available, So there's also clearly other cultural factors going on here. So the most likely explanation is we have fewer children, we nurture them for longer, We expect that they will take longer to finish their education, that they'll go to college and maybe even graduate school, that they will have their own children later. So it's called a slow life strategy. And the theory behind this suggests that an environment that is safe and nurturing and favors having fewer children who are going to live longer will push for this type of slower development. And that's exactly what we're seeing. Is in eighteen year olds now look like what fifteen year olds look like ten or twenty years ago. And it was studying to me how quickly this change has occurred. In the article, you pointed out. The twelfth graders go out less than eighth graders did in two thousand nine. I mean, so many of the changes you're describing really boiled down to kids spending time alone in their rooms. Why is actual face to face communication so critically important? Gene? Well, you know, think about human evolution and for how many years our brains evolved, how many thousands, tens of thousands of years our brains evolved without screens. In the Caveman era, if you were isolated from other people and didn't have face to face interaction, you were dead. You didn't have anybody to help you find food, You don't have anybody to mate with. That was literally bred out of us, um to be a hermit. Uh. We really need that face to face interaction to be happy. We are hardwired that way. And it's interesting, Jeane, you bring that up. A teenager named Ala called in from Texas. She's one of our listeners with these thoughts on screen time. UM, let's have a listen to what she says and then we can talk about it. Hi. There, I was born in nine. I'm eighteen years old. It's as hot a phone for a pretty much my entire life, and I honestly believe that social media like Instagram and Facebook and stuff, seeing photos of girls and models and stuff pop up on your feet really makes girls my age feel very unscure about themselves. And I know that a lot of girls feel like social media is the best thing ever, but I just don't. I guess that's all I have to say. I hope this helped Gene. That's an interesting comment. And of course I'm sure Ala is not alone. I'm sure a lot of girls for age eighteen year olds feel that way. And do you think it is contributing to the increase and anxiety, depression in and suicidal thoughts or increased risk of suicide. Well, those mental health issues that have been on the rise, those trends are stronger and more acute for girls. Uh. In some cases, that trend only towards more mental health problems only shows up for girls and and not for boys. And that may be because girls spend more time on their smartphones and more time on social media, and that many of the interactions that girls have on social media um come with those types of feelings that Ela is describing, being judged for your appearance, m of seeing others who you know have these unattainable physical ideals. There's you know, a lot of pressures on teen girls that are UM exacerbated and um really just becomes so much of a larger issue online, even more than they used to be. UM. Can you tell us a little bit about the effect of these changes on depression rates among the I gen generally. Yeah, So there's two crucial pieces to that. The first is there is an increasing amount of evidence that I gen is suffering from more mental health issues, and this shows up across many different sources. They are more likely to be identified as having major depressive disorder. Those rates have gone up by about fifty. They're more likely to say they feel anxious, to say they feel overwhelmed, to show symptoms of depression, to feel lonely, uh, to self harm, say through cutting. Across the board, suicide rates have tripled for girls between the ages of twelve and fourteen. They've gone up by fifty for older teen girls. UM, there's rises for for teen boys as well. UM. So just in many different measures, they are suffering from many form more and more severe mental health issues. UM than just five years ago or ten years ago. There was a fairly sudden change starting mostly around. This is really upsetting obviously when you hear this gene and and let's unpack it, if if we could tell me what is at the root of these problems? Is it social isolation? Is it feeling that everybody has a better life than you do? Is that the constant assault of perfection or seeming perfection that kids are being exposed to all the time on their digital devices. So there's definitely a role for social media and smartphones in this rise. Um The rise started to happen right at the year when the majority of Americans had smartphones, and that year was um And there's for we know this from many many studies of boteens and adults that those who spend more hours on social media, on electronic devices and smartphones are more likely to report mental health issues like anxiety and depression and risk for suicide. So it's not just that spending a lot of time in front of a screen may lead to anxiety, depression, through comparison, through cyber bullying, things like that. It's also that by some estimates, teams are spending eight hours a day with screens. Combine that with school and other activities, they have very little time left over to just hang out with their friends and to have in person social interaction with their friends and family. Sure enough, those things have declined. Teams do spend less time interacting with their friends face to face than they used to. And I think that's actually one of the major effects here is not just the screen, but the the screen leaves less time for that in person, face to face social interaction, which is so crucial for mental health. You know, Gene, that's so interesting that you bring this up because I have a daughter who's in college and even visiting her in college. When I was in school, of course, I'm much older than you and Brian, but I remember spending time in the hallway, uh, drinking like cup of soup we had made from our hot pot, right boiling water in our hot pot, or making popcorn and ordering a pizza and sitting in the hall you know, a big group of us and just blowing off steam, talking, sharing stories. And when I visited my daughter in college, I noticed that a lot of kids in their downtime spend time on their computer. They're watching movies, they're watching TV shows, they're talking to their friends, but they're not actually hanging out. Yes, many people who could this have said, well, you know, teens, young adults, they're they're just they're just talking to their friends when they're on their phones, are on their computer, they're communicating with their friends. Teens have always done that, they're just using a different method. I think that assumes that that's the same that electronic communication and in person communication are. They are equal for mental health and well being. They are not. They are definitely not. Face to face interaction predicts more happiness, less depression, screen time the opposite. You know, we should stop and think about what people are actually seeing on these social media sites like Instagram, and for people my age, it's like everyone's on the greatest vacation ever at all times, and so you kind of feel bad about that with the best bodies, that the most beautiful skin ever. Well and and your and to that point, Katie, particularly for younger people, UM, I think the images are off and almost pornographic. It's like, um, girls in really skimpy swimsuits showing off their bodies, and if your body doesn't look like that, you feel really bad about yourself. Ibit Uh sister who's much younger, who talks about this, and um, I'm sure that contributes to this feeling of insecurity and feeling left out. Yeah, absolutely, and that you know, that's one of the questions that they're asked on these big surveys is do you feel left out? And that really started to go up and around, so um teens are now more likely to say that they feel left out and lonely than they did just five years ago, which is particularly interesting because social media they advertise themselves as connecting us and leading to less loneliness, but the opposite actually seems seems to be true. It's the ultimate irony in many ways, these devices that are ostensibly keep us connected actually make us feel lonely and isolated more than ever before. And one thing I wanted to talk to you Gene about is sort of the physiological impact of some of these things like smartphones and the addictive nature. I don't think it takes a teenage boy or girl to know that we often reach for our smartphone. We feel panicky if we can't find our phone. Has become almost an appendage, a third arm, if you will, talk about the impact that's having on this generation. So there's you know, increasing amount of research suggesting that smartphones are addictive, that they light up the same areas of the brain that they and gender the same brain chemicals as other types of addictions. So that's why it's so difficult to stop, even if you know that it's bad for you, because you might ask that question, well, if it's so bad, then why do they do it so much? Because it is addictive. They also feel a lot of social pressure to to do it. But it's that constant stimulation. It's it's one of those things, just like drug addiction. It feels good, but only for a short amount of time, and then it feels bad, and that's the problem with it. You know, there was a man recently in the news who wanted to ban cell phones or prevent kids under thirteen, I believe, from getting a smartphone in his community, and of course he people laughed about that and thought it was ridiculous. But do you think that's going to be given greater consideration. A friend of mine who studies these things said, you know, you wouldn't give alcohol to a ten year old, and you're giving them free reign over something that is, in fact, highly addictive. What are your thoughts on that gene? I do think it is a good idea for parents to put off getting a smartphone for their kids as long as possible. UM. And one one reason I haint that is I looked at that in this UM analysis. Sure Enough, the effect of social media on depression is largest for eighth graders, a little lower for tenth graders, and lower still for twelfth graders. Eighth graders are just not much less. Sixth graders, many of them do have smartphones, are at a very vulnerable time in their development, and often don't have the emotional resources to deal with a lot of the stuff that happens online. So if you're worried about your kid taking the bus, get him a flip phone. They still sell them. They can still call you and text you by pressing the same you know number three times. Remember that from ten years ago. You know, it's interesting. A number of my friends in Silicon Valley, some of whom work for these social media companies, not only prevent their kids from getting smartphones until they're you know, well into high school, but they themselves have deleted the face Book app or the Instagram app from their phones so that they're not tempted. You know, they maybe check it once or twice a day on their computers, but they just they don't trust themselves to resist the temptation if it's on their phones, and so they just they solve it that way. I mean, do you think that there are other strategies that parents or young people themselves could employ to kind of moderate our use of these technologies. Yeah. So for you know, for for parents, there there are apps out there that you can put on your kid's phone once they eventually get one, um, which will restrict the number of time hours of day they can use it and also on the time of day when they use it. So you can have it turned off at nine o'clock and then not back on until seven in the morning if you want them to be able to relax before they go to sleep and get a good night's sleep. Uh. And then I think that strategy of only having social media on your desktop or your laptop rather than on your phone is a really good one. Actually all of that. Myself, I'm a very late convert to social media. Um, I am on Twitter to talk about some of these issues, but I do it only on my desktop. I do not have it on my phone. Let's take a short break. When we return, we'll have much more with psychologists, Gene twiny about teenagers and their digital diets. And I'm also going to check to see if I have any new emails. That's right after this. One thing that your study and your book points out, Gene is this really crosses socioeconomic lines. We're not just talking about a bunch of spoiled rich kids who are having these problems or who are interacting with one another this way, are we? That's exactly right. So, um, the smartphone has completely collapsed the socio economic gap in internet access. Uh, Teens who are from disadvantaged backgrounds are just as likely and actually a little more likely to spend a lot of hours online compared to those with more money and more resources. So it's I think it's really important to get across that message that these effects of smartphones are not going to be isolated to just you know, rich communities. Um, that they occur across ethnicity, across soci economic status, across region. They're very very pervasive trends that that really show up among many different groups. And you know, Brian, the other thing we didn't talk about, which I think Gene alluded to, is this ability to be empathetic, to have empathy that's one of the most important reasons that you need to have face to face contact. Isn't a gene because you to develop emotional intelligence, you have to be able to have that verbal interplay and really read somebody and understand how your words are making that person feel. Yeah, and that's you know, another area. There is one study that suggests as screen time is having a negative impact on social skills. They looked at sixth graders who either you know, live their normal lives or went to a camp for five days where they had no access to screens, and sure enough, the kids who went to the screen free camp at the end of that time had improved their social skills more. There's a great quote in your piece in which you say, in the next decade, we may see more adults who know just the right emoji for a situation, but not the right facial expression. I think people don't necessarily realize the consequences on in person conversations of spending all of this time staring at phones. Yes, so not only our teens interacting with each other in person less when they are with their friends in person, they often have their phones. They're often looking at their phones, So that reduction in face to face time may be considerably larger um, given that that face to face time sometimes it isn't even face to FaceTime, Geen. You know you we're focusing on on kids or on teenagers, and and that's really the subject of your book with I, Gen, But aren't you concerned about the impact this is having on all of us in terms of what it's doing to our humanity, our ability to relate to each other, the way we spend our time, and our overall quality of life. Can you tell I have an issue here, Gene? Yeah, well, and yeah, and I agree completely. I my particular studying book, you know, focuses mostly on teens, but I hope to look more at adults in the future and see how it's affecting all of us. And there are lots of other studies suggesting that these same effects of smartphones and screen time on loneliness and depression and psychological will being show up for adults as well. So this, yeah, this is not just a problem with teens. It is an issue um with the adults as well. So it's something we all need to think about carefully. What are the practical ramifications of this though? I mean, as you see this I gen or this generation of children and teenagers completely focused on technology and the impact technology is having on how they spend their days. What do you see occurring in the future, I mean, and how worried are you about this? I am. I'm the most worried about these mental health trends. UM. That's one of the reasons I wrote the book. And there's now so much evidence UM showing these trends and showing that smartphones, you know, might be playing a role in it. I think we really need to take this seriously. So I'm really hoping that there will be more attention paid to that maybe we can try to stop some of these negative trends in their tracks with some sensible solutions. You now, we don't have to take phones away entirely, but try to moderate their use and just pay more attention to this. And also, parents, just realize your kids hanging out with their friends, it's not wasted time. They are building valuable skills for relationships and the workplace when they're doing that. I think also one of the topics I'm really interested in in terms of UH technology and smartphones is how distracted we are by them and the fact that we have very little down time, so to speak. And I remember giving a commencement address. I told you, Gene, I often quoted your Generation Me book and my commencement addresses, but I also talked about the importance of not focusing on something, of giving your brain a break, I guess, and daydreaming. And I read that the part of your brain that's responsible for creativity is really ignited when you're not doing a specific task. And that's why we come up with great ideas when we're in the shower, right when we have some time and let our minds wander. Um, is that something that you've looked at or thought about? So, yeah, I haven't been able to research that specifically, but I'm a big believer UM in kids occasionally getting good and board and just kind of letting their minds wander and having time to read a book or maybe read a couple of pages of one book and then another or however they want to spend the time, and just not always having that screen available, not having every minute of the day scheduled, that they can have that time away from screens to just explore and think and read. Uh, is just so important for their development cognitively. Emotionally and everything else. It's interesting now. When I was growing up, Brian, I would always say to my mom in the summer when I didn't you know, maybe she put me in summer school for a while, or but I had I had some downtime, and I would say, Mom, I'm so bored. I mean, I don't think kids ever say that anymore? Right, I would go. She would say, go read. So I'd go up down my room. I'd put my pillow on our window unit air conditioner, make it really really cold, and then I'd lie on my pillow and read. Hey, who says I was exciting kid? But I mean, do you ever hear kids now say I'm bored because they have something to occupy them? Seven? Right? You guys? My my kids still say that they do because they're not allowed to use smartphones, probably right exactly because they don't have smartphones and even you know the little tablets. Um they you know, they that's what they want to be doing. But I most of the time don't let them. I I usually gesture to all the books that we have. I'm like, how can you possibly be bored? We have all of those books? Go read one Gene. We can't have this conversation without talking about my latest obsession, which is texting and driving. If you walk around any American city these days, you look into the cars and people are just staring at their smartphone. And the statistics on this are just absolutely terrifying. One out of four car accidents are caused by texting while driving. The average text will distract a driver for about five seconds. The average drivers going fifty That means that the driver is driving the length of a football field without looking out, And so it's it's actually more dangerous than drunk driving, and so what can we do about It's so infuriating by the way, I I see people texting and I like wag my finger at them and say stop texting. And I'm sure they think I'm a crazy person, which I am, but it infuriates me when I see someone texting when they're driving. Well, and one study showed the cent of teens respond to at least one text while driving every single time they drive. So this is just epidemic. Yep. What can be done about this? Gene anything? Well, has anybody invented an app yet that will shut off the phone if it's moving faster than twenty. Actually they have. I did a profile of this gentleman on Yahoo, and a friend of mine told me that Germany has just installed ground level you know, walk don't walk signs because cell phone users aren't looking up, they're looking down, and so they're building them into the pavements so pedestrians don't get hit by cars, which I think is a real sign of the time, so to speak. Absolutely, yeah, it really is. Wow. I feel like so many others that I am very addicted to my smartphone that uh, when I have a moment of downtime, I check it, I look at it, and then I get sucked into this vortex of useless information and I'm like, oh, I want to see what these actors look like. You won't believe it they like or I want to see how fat someone is in a bathing suit and it's sick, right, And then I get more of that garbage because I clicked on it. It's terrible. But um, yes, I need I need help. Gene. Um. I don't know if you're the person. Maybe I need to discuss this with my therapist. But what advice would you give to people? Would you say, like, put your phone away? Nothing's more depressing to me when I go out to dinner. I'm not this bad, Brian and Geen, But when I go out to dinner and I see couples like having a romantic dinner and they're both on their phones, or a group of friends, and every last one of them is on their phones. But listen, I'm sure people listening to this, our listeners, who I love, by the way, thank you all for listening. I'm sure they've seen this too, and I hope they're not the people who are on their phones because they're not going to be listening to the podcast anymore. But don't you think that's insane? I I do. I think it is just simple awareness and politeness. Have that phone put away during dinner when you're spending time face to face with a friend. That we have to set limits on this um ensure if you know you're expecting a really important call, they just you can figure it out then. But that thing of everybody at dinner swiping through the phone, you have to set that limit. Um it just has it has to stay in your purse or in your briefcase or in your pocket if you're going to be truly present for that situation. If you're gonna be truly present in your own life, that phone has to be out of your hand. But Jean and fairness to smartphone users. A lot of this is not checking social media. A lot of this is workplace culture now where if you're the first one to respond to an email, your boss thinks more highly of you. If you're a journalist and you're not on top of Twitter all the time, you feel like you're behind the curve. And so a lot of it is not that we want to be on our smartphones all the time. It's that we feel like we have to be in order to succeed professionally. I under I understand that impulse completely so um and I think everybody's just gonna try to figure that out as much as they can. That you have to resist that temptation. Once you've done that work email, then put it away. Um And Yeah, everybody has clicked on the You know why Hollywood doesn't hire Brandon Frazer A nam there? Oh, I really want to know that Umnood's answer to that horrible plastic surgery. I gotta see that the worst people in Hollywood to work with, they're the worst people in America to work with. I'm always afraid I'm going to click it and I'm going to see myself. Oh no, highly doubt you've only been on a couple of those less Thank you, Brian. Having said that, I think a lot of employers are starting to think about this, and there's some companies where they forbid people, Brian from being on email after a certain hour. And so I think we're seeing people slowly but surely realize the detrimental effects of this constant connectivity, and I think they're starting to take steps to to change things, do you, Gene. I think there is more awareness. And one of the things that actually surprised me the most in the interviews I did with Gentines was how many of them are aware of the negative effects of smartphones. So the girl who I call Athena in the Atlantic piece, it seems fully aware. She's thirteens, never known a world without smartphones, but realizes that having a conversation with a friend when she's trying to look at her phone is infuriating. And I think most of us, you know, completely agree with that, and that that a thirteen year old would still recognize that gave me some hope that if we realize the effect that the things are having. That's the first step to try to do something about it. And if and if even a team who's never known any other world realizes this, I think the rest of us can too. When I read your article, I started thinking about my own childhood and the concerns about too much television viewing, and I thought, well, is this really more of the same, And then I realized the differences the ubiquity of technology in our lives. You didn't have the television on. You couldn't take your TV with you when you went to the playground or went out on a date, or went to school. And so it's the fact that that technology is now so omnipresent. It's really changed the face of how we live and how we interact with each other. Yeah, I think that's one of the keys. I think that's also why, you know a lot of these trends don't start to show up until most people have a smartphone. That because the Internet has been around for a while, that it's having that tech knowlogy always with you. With that said, TV does have negative effects on happiness and depression. So sometimes when people say, well, everybody said TV was going to make people depressed. Well, it does, um, and social media and smartphones happen to be a little bit worse. They have it a little bit of a stronger correlation. But TV isn't great either, all right, duly noted by the way we um. Here's another telling teen adult exchange that we just wanted to mention mid Roles. Head of Revenue, Lex Friedman chatted with his teenage niece le Or over Facebook messenger. Gosh, listen to the way we're even leading up to this about calling to our show. Here's what she said. She said, tell Katie Kirk that I was born in nineteen and I would for sure take a bullet for my phone. Lex then told her leave her a voicemail, and she said, Lex, I just said I was born in nineteen. I've never left a voicemail in my life. So there you have it, right. I mean, how much of this handwringing, though, is sort of by old fogies who are saying, kids, what's the matter with kids today? And is it being overgo? What's the matter with kids today? Remember Paul land from by Bertie. But I mean, how much of this is that? Gene? Well, you know I went into this without any expectations really about what would show up. I just monitor these national databases and kind of see what trends end up showing up. UM. It was a real process of seeing the trends possibly connecting it to the smartphones and these surveys. This is what teens say about themselves. This says nothing to do with what older people are complaining about. UM. It's all about what teens are experiencing, how they're spending their time, and how it's making them feel. UM. And I think that's that's where you have to start, is you know, really listening to teens um. And that's that's been my philosophy for a while with this generation's research, is to really listen to young people themselves, UM, both in surveys in in interviews. UM. And I'm not usually concerned with what people think. I'm concerned about, which is, oh, you know, I haven't people always said that, Mom. I don't care what people say. I want to know what young people say now compared to what young people used to say ten years ago, or twenty years ago or thirty years ago. I want to add one other thing that may sound a little bit preachy, but Gene, don't you think parents need to take more control. This seems to be I think coinciding with this trend to over parent and coddle kids. And they want them to be popular, so they want them to have access to social media and be able to talk to their friends, etcetera, etcetera. But do you think it's time for parents to say, Hey, we're gonna have a basket where everybody puts their phone after a certain time at night, and we're gonna go out and we're going to do something as a family, everyone leave their smartphone behind. In other words, should parents start acting a little more parental? So I'm I'm a parent myself of three of three kids. It's a tough job. Setting those limits is a struggle every single day, but it has to be done. And I think a lot of parents up to this point just haven't really gotten the right information about how smartphones are affecting their kids. Um that's number one. And then and then there is the reluctance to set limits, which is there as well, which you just have to fight. Um. Yes, you want your kid to be happy, but you have to think about their long term health and happiness, not just their short term health and happiness. I mean to to make an analogy something that's different from a smartphone. If I really wanted my kids to be happy at dinner time, I would say, guess what, kids, we're having cookies and ice cream for dinner. Would that be something that would make them happy? Absolutely? But is that a good idea in the long run for them learning how to eat healthy? And if we did that every night, their teeth would run out of their head and they never get, you know, a healthy diet, and they never learned how to how to eat well. Um. And the same is true for smartphones. Those limits have to be set by the way I should mention. People should do what I say and not what I do. I don't necessarily have control over this myself, since I sound like such a no at all, smarty pants, Well, what are three or four tips for parents? And closing gene too? Kind of get this really growing problem under control. So put off getting your kids a smartphone for as long as possible. Get a flip phone if you feel they really need a phone set up. When they do get a smartphone, one of those apps that will make sure they're not on it in the middle of the night and will restrict the number of hours a day they use it. Um, if you're on social media, consider not doing it on your phone, but doing it only on a on a desktop, and in general, realize that spending time with other people in person is one of the greatest joys of human existence. And it's not a waste of time for teens, it's not a waste of time for adults. Uh, And that it is better for mental health than staring at that screen. Well, Gen Twangy, I really enjoyed talking to I know this is something that Brian and I are both enormously interested in, and I think this should be a warning to parents and two kids alike to really enjoy all the wonders of technology and what you can do as a result of it. But like everything, it should be a moderation exactly. Thank you, Thanks Geen, Thank you, thank you Brian text me just kidding as always, A big thank you to our production team are Crack Pod Squad, our producer, Gianna Palmer, our audio engineers. Was that a little cheesy? I like it? Who's Peggy Lipton? I don't know. I think you are, Gianna your link our audio engineers, Jared O'Connell and New York and Ryan Connor here in l A thanks also to our production assistant Nora Richie, to Emily Beana of Katie Currect Media for her production assistance, and lastly, thanks to Alison Bresnik for her fine work on social media. Actually it's not lastly, because we also want to thank Mark Phillips for our very rock and theme music. By the way, Brian and I are executive producers of this podcast. And hey, have you emailed us yet? It comments at correct podcast dot com. Keep it clean, people, How about leaving us a voicemail something that that young woman has never done. If you're of a certain age, you all know what a voicemail is. Anyway, you can do so at nine to nine two two four four six three seven. Again that's nine to nine two two four four six three seven. Please, we love to hear from you and tell us nice things about our podcasts are not nice things were open to constructive criticism. If you don't know my social media handles by now, I mean you've been living under a rock people. I'm kidding. I'm I'm at Katie Couric on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Corric on Snapchat and you can find me on Facebook as well. Brian meanwhile, is a Twitter fiend. He is always on Twitter and his handle is at Goldsmith b And maybe I'll be on Twitter a little less as a result of this episode, I hope. So anyway, you've made it this far into the show, so why stop interacting with us now? Go on over to Apple Podcasts and rate and review our show. We would really appreciate it. It's how more people can learn about the show and can subscribe themselves. So please rate, please review, please subscribe, and until next time, thanks for listening. Bye yeah