Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question. Dr Evramex Kendy is one of the country's leading anti racist scholars, and in fact, everything that Dr Kendy does as a professor, an author, a researcher, a podcast host, a human is in an effort to reframe how we think about racism and how we fight it, and he's very prolific. In addition to his academic career, he just co edited a new book called four Hundred Souls. He's starting a new journalistic endeavor, an online publication centered on racial justice called The Emancipator, and he's creating a podcast based on his two thousand nineteen bestselling book, How to Be An Anti Racist. He is also a Stage four calling cancer survivor. I think it gives me a level of urgency. I think that's why some people are like, why are you doing all these different things? You know, why don't you wait to do this or that? And I'm like, wait for when? Even and I talk about that life changing diagnosis a little later in the show. I couldn't start our conversation though, without acknowledging that it's been a year since George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis, a year since, a nearly ten minute video of his death reverberated across the country, prompting all of us to look at ourselves, really look at ourselves collectively and individually. I asked Abraham if he would share his reflections on this somber anniversary. So I I wanted the nation to be at a different place at the one year anniversary of George Floyd's death. You know, certainly it is good that, um, the person who murdered him is being held accountable. Certainly, it is good that there is a larger number of Americans and indeed people around the world, who are aware of the existence of systemic racism, who are aware that there's that there's fundamental problems in American policing. But I was hoping that we would have begun to make some pretty drastic changes to actually ah to actually sort of solve these these systemic problems. And we're we're still in a moment in which we're arguing over whether even racism exists, um, And even though we live in a nation of racial inequities and you know that are all around us. So I am I have mixed feelings, you know, I'm elated that there's this awareness, and certainly more awareness than than this time last year. But at the same time, I am frustrated that there hasn't been more action. If you had a magic wand Abram and you could have said, these are the changes that we needed to see. These are the changes that make me feel hopeful about the future and the present, what would those have been. Part of this is about policy, and part of is it about framing. So as a result of the COVID nineteen pandemic, and even as a result of the economic pandemic within the pandemic, the number of Americans who've lost jobs, who've lost businesses, who have fallen into poverty, if we as a nation, uh would have not only provided relief as as we have to a certain extent to two people, but we would have also said that this relief isn't just relief to get people back on their feet, to get businesses going again. This is also a crime fighting measure. In other words, the communities, the neighborhoods in our nation with the highest levels of poverty and unemployment are also typically the neighborhoods with the highest levels of violent crying, and we consider the people in those neighborhoods, namely black people, to be dangerous, when indeed poverty is dangerous, when indeed unemployment is dangerous, When indeed housing insecurity and food insecurity is dangerous, and you know, indeed sexual sort of violence and patriarchy that it stems from is is dangerous. And so what can we do as a nation to completely transform the conditions? And that would have been the start, right and and and we would be working on how do we eliminate again housing insecurity, how do we eliminate the fact that so many Americans don't have access to to to quality healthcare um and and we would have again seen those as not only efforts to help people, but even efforts to to eliminate violent crime or reduce it. And I'm saying that because part of what happened to George Floyd is partially what happens to to to black people or even black men across this country. We're seeing as dangerous, We're seeing as the problem. And the solvent is, you know, more weapons or more armed people in our communities as opposed to weaponizing against the social conditions you know, in those communities. And so that's what I would have wanted us to be thinking that big um and and and broadly, do you think that they're our hopeful policy discussions going on right now, Abram about police brutality, about some of the disparities that were laid bare, not only as a result of what happened to George Floyd, but so many police killings involving black people, not just black men. Are you seeing the seeds of some policy conversations that you would like to see pushed faster? Further? So? In ethical New York, a very enterprising and courageous young mayor just decided that he was going to completely reimagine public safety in that city, and that he was going to essentially let go of the entire police force and completely reorganize it to the point in which some obviously officers hired, but others would be rehired to specifically focus, let's say, on on on on mental health services or social services, um and and and So, I think in part of the reason for that is because upwards at fift of people who are killed by police in this country have a have a mental illness or have a mental disability. Uh. There's also efforts in places like I believe San Francisco. And I think it's Berkeley, in which the police are no longer a large allowed to stop people for traffic stops. Why because there's so many people who die unarmed uh during traffic stops, as Dante Wright did in Minnesota. Um and and then there are certainly efforts to think more deeply about funding uh and and and I think, you know, Katy, this is the fundamental question, why are people committing crimes? Are people committing crimes out of despair and poverty and unemployment, or people committing crimes because there's something culturally or fundamentally wrong with them? And how we answer that question is going to determine how we sort of, you know, attack the issue. Um and So there are people asking that question and and building policy you know, around it. And I think we need to move away from this model of whether there are sort of bad apples of good apples, you know, in American policing. The issue isn't the individual cops. And I think that's where we trap ourselves because we all are related to cops. We all know, we've all interacted with with cops who have helped us. So that but that's not the issue that the issue is the fact that, uh, the the American the combined cost of American policing is more than every their military in the world combined, aside from the Chinese and the American military. That's the issue. So it's not about individual cops, It's about the structure. As you saw people take to the streets as the Black Lives Matter movement really gained steam and momentum following the death of George Floyd, was that something that you embraced and did it feel as if America was finally all Americans or many many Americans, not just sort of the prototypical Americans. The fact that it did seem to span the racial divide to a certain extent, was that heartening to you? It was? It was certainly heartening to me. I mean, the fact that you had demonstrations against police violence and systemic racism in every single state, in almost every single town, uh, no matter it's racial and economic sort of makeup, um, And I mean certainly was was was heartening to me, As some observers estimated that it was the largest series of demonstrations in American history and um, And so how could you not as someone like me who's who've been calling on Americans to to to to to to see the problem not as bad people, but to see it as as bad policy and um and as structural racism. How could I not be heartened? And and indeed, by June of last year, one survey found that seventies six percent of Americans we're reportedly saying that racism is a big problem. That's the highest number ever recorded UM for survey. And and so we'll we'll never get to a point on any issue where there's a of agreement. That's the beauty of humanity, right. We we see things differently, and we have different perspectives. But but obviously with some critical issues that is facing humanity, like bigotry, like climate change, like nuclear war, like pandemics, we have to have a governing majority that recognizes it as a problem so that we could, you know, keel from it when we come back anti racism for kids, while starting the conversation early is so important. That's right after this, This is so systemic and so foundational racism in America. And I know that you are working so hard, Abraham, to reframe and reshape the way we learn about race, the way you learned about race, and what was sort of force fed into you as a young man, and you're doing so much in that arena. But tell me about how you're trying to address this at a very young age, because it seems to me the more we're culturally conditioned, the harder it is to unlearn certain attitudes and behavior. I agree, I made it. You know, we as adults often talk about how hard it is to talk about race and racism. Part of that is because we only really started talking about it as adults. Right If if we would have been conditioned to talk about it and conditioned on how we should talk about it, you know, from a young age, then I think it would be easier for all of us. And so part of for me and ensuring that the youngest of people are are talking about this so that they have easier lives than we do right over this specific issue. But then also they don't grow up like I did, you know, thinking that that the problem is is black people. By the time I graduated high school in the year two thousand, not to date myself, UM, I had consumed a decade worth of of anti black ideas saying all the things that were wrong with black people, and I thought those ideas were true, and I thought, therefore that the problem that needed to be addressed were people were black people as opposed to systemic racism. And really, I've spent the last twenty one year is trying to unlearn uh those those those racist ideas that have been fed to me. And it's been unbelievably difficult. And I only wish that I would have instead of learning racist ideas, I would have learned anti racist ideas, because then I could have built and I feel like I would have been so much further along right now in my life. And in fact, you write very movingly about in many ways you had to accommodate these anti black narratives from an early age, and instead of looking at your potential, your potential was kind of imposed on you. Yeah, and because they think about it, if in the nineties, if there was ever a decade in American history where like black youth were considered the American problem, which so much of American politics revolved around around black youth. Um, you know, it was the nineties, and and so if you're constantly being told there's something wrong with black youth, and you are a black youngster and you struggle in any capacity. It's easy for you to delete. But I'm struggling in this way because I'm a black youth, right as opposed to you know, I'm struggling in this way because I should be working harder, or I should be doing this, or I should be doing that, and um and so it. By the time I graduated high school, I was deeply self conscious, you know, about even my academic, uh skills, whether I was even worthy of college. I only end up graduate applying for two colleges because I didn't feel that I was worthy of college. I was shocked when one of the colleges, the first of the two, admitted me, like literally, I did not think I was college material. And and you know, I always wonder how much of that had to do with this internalized idea that there was something wrong with people like me. You are now working to to kind of stop that conditioning and young kids with a picture book you have The Anti Race Is Baby. You also have a two thousand sixteen books stamp. From the beginning, it was just rewritten for middle school students and talk about what you're trying to do in terms of shaping their perspective and why that is. I think you really just described why. That's so critically important because you want them to not be in your situation when you were a high school senior thinking you had no right or or college material. So talk about those projects. So first, I think as as caretakers, as people who love young people, and I have people love young people. Um, I think it's important for us to recognize that they see racial inequality. Um it's not hard to see, right, And so they're going to see that some people, namely white people, have more. They're gonna see that other people, you know, let's say, you know, black and brown people have less. The question that they're gonna be asking is why. And but they're also going to live in a society where they are these messages that are told to adults and young people that that there's something wrong with black people and something wrong something right about white people. And so you take you separate those two and you put them together. Young people, If we're not talking to them about why certain people have more and other people have less, will they not conclude that white people have more because they are born. Will they not conclude that black people have less because they are less? Will they not then look at themselves? Will not a young white boy say I'm special because I'm white, as opposed to I'm special because I'm nice or because I'm inquisitive. Well, not a young black girl say, uh, there's something wrong with me because of the color of my skin. Will that not affect their development in terms of whether, you know, self esteem or even conceit. You know, we don't want our kids thinking to high or low of themselves. Um, But ultimately, will they have an accurate rendering of society? Uh? And and and the key to this isn't you know to teach them that, uh the opposite of those ideas that you know, white people are less or black people are more. The key is, well, you know, this is the result of bad rules that have favored certain groups of people over the course of time and still do. Just like you know, you don't like your curfew or your bedtime. You know their rules in society that have created these inequalities. And and it's and and these uh inequities don't just exist between let's say, black and Native people. They also exist between white people. In other words, certain wealthy white people have certain advantages over certain white poor people, and white poor people are called white trash. Which is a racialized term, and you shouldn't think of anybody, any group of people in that way. And and so there's so many different It allows us to really get at and explain why inequality exists, and and and it allows young people to not think that there's something wrong with people. I I I'm gonna continue to say this, like, it is so important for us to teach adults and young people that the groups, the racial groups are equals. And that doesn't mean that the individuals within the groups are all the same. You know, I know some black folks and white folks who work harder than me. Right, It's but when we talk about groups, to say that a particular racial group works harder or as lazier, or as more gifted or more smarter than another group, that the problem. Let's talk about the royal Critical race theory has in this because it's become you know, a dirty phrase amongst certain segments of the population. And I think it's quite misunderstood because like so many things in our current culture, it's become weaponized. So, you know, I think can we begin by just explaining what critical race theory is and why it doesn't need to be a dirty phrase, sure. So, I think critical race theory emerged in the late nineteen seventies and especially in the nineteen eighties, specifically among legal scholars and lawyers and activists who recognized by the nineteen eighties that racial inequity in housing and education and criminal justice in the environment, we're persisting after civil rights and and so critical race theorists then started to examine the structure of policies and power, uh, many of which were perceived to be race neutral, that was maintaining the inequity. In other words, the critical examination of structural racism. And and it wasn't necessarily an attack on white people, as it's consistently being framed. It was an attack on structure, on policies, on practices that we're leading to this inequity, you know, an injustice. And and I think it's unfortunate that critical race theory, which again started out in legal circles and now has expanded to to other circles. One of the personally one of the most fascinating interventions of critical race theory was was by Kimberly Crenshaw, who who coined the term intersectionality, in which she really wanted us to think about the intersection of let's say, racism and sexism and the way it was impacting black women. So you can't really understand what's impacting these the race genders without understanding both um and and this gave us the tools to really analyze our society and the laws, in particular that we're maintaining inequity, which is why it's sort of derived from legal theory. And the governor of Idaho recently signed a bill to ban it. What happened? How did critical race theory become a weapon by the status quo or by certain segments of the population or political groups. So I think I mentioned earlier how last June, seventies six percent of Americans that we're recognizing that's just that that racism is a big problem. Um And ever since the June there has been a concerted effort to basically chip away at that highest ever percentage of of of of sort of anti racist awareness in this country. And this is the latest effort, um and and the and and and largely because so let's say, for instance, if you are a legislator who recognizes that the ideology of the country and the demographics of the country are moving away from you such that you can't get elected if everyone is easily able to vote. So what you're going to do is figure out ways to suppress the votes of your political opponents. And if you tailor those laws to specifically target black and brown indigenous voters, whether they're written into the law or not, those are racist policies. But how do you get away with those racist policies by convincing your constituents in the American people that racist policies don't exist and that actually the real problem are those people who are identifying certain policies as racists. You know, those are the real racist, the people who talk about racism, um, not the policies themselves. So that allows you to get away with those policies, uh, continue to pass them, continue to think caused people to think, uh that that uh, that the problem are those who are identifying racism rather than the racism itself. And then you're able to convince your constituents, who now it's harder even for them to vote, that those policies are not only good for them, but they're also not racist. And and so to me that it's part of a larger plot and plan to establish sort of a very small segment of people bull controlling the rest of us. Is it the the last gasp of a white patriarchal system. I'd like to hope so. Um and I like to hope so, because even the white patriarchal system white men, for instance, many many millions of white men right now are not benefiting from it. Uh. You know, and to give an example, you know, we have this epidemic right now that we're not talking about of white male suicide by hand gun. Uh. And the levels of white men who are who are dying be a suicide by handgun are at the levels of black men who die by homicides. Um and And so why is that and where is this primarily happening? This is primarily happening uh in states that are controlled by politicians who primarily say they're defenders of white men. Right. And I'm going to make it easier for you. I'm gonna make sure that you know you have your Second Amendment rights. I'm gonna make sure you have access to guns so you can protect you and your family and your your quote women from those black criminals, those Latino X immigrants, and those Muslim terrors. So then people they're able to get guns and now they're killing themselves and uh and it's a tragedy. You know, it's a tragedy that continues to happen, just as you have so many white working class uh men who were devastated by this pandemic and this previous presidency. You know, at the same time they are imagining that that certain elected officials are seeking to benefit. Then we become so tribalistic, abram and it seems like that we're just a society of warring tribes that you know, it's a zero sum game, and that someone else's move towards equality is going to hurt someone else. I'll never forget I worked at a network and the guy said to me, here, someone else's success diminishes you, someone else's failure elevates you. Well, you can imagine I wasn't very excited about working at this organization. And I feel like that you could almost apply that to society today. How do how do we get out of this trap of feeling that if someone else does well, we're not going to do well, and that there's something important and beautiful dare I say about leveling a playing field? So I actually, I actually think this is extremely important issue and and and it's certainly an issue that Heather McGee addresses in her new book called The Some of Us Um, in which she pushes back against this sort of zero sum myth of American society, and specifically the myth that many white Americans have um that as people of color gain, they lose in the greatest in the in the most general sense, what I would actually urge white Americans to think about it's to not compare their lot two people of color. I think white Americans should be comparing their lot to white Canadians, to white folks in Europe, and think about what do they have that you don't have, Whether it's universal health care, universit of child care, whether it's lower levels of income um and economic you know, inequality, whether it's lower levels of white people dying by police, and on and on. Uh. And I think once if if I think white Americans was to change their frame of reference two. Okay, you know what, my kid goes to a first class school, and if we change things, they're gonna have to go back and coach. You know, Actually, why can't all of our kids be going to like private jet schools, which you haven't personally even been exposed to right and and and why can't all of us have that level of resources, you know, for our children, Because if we were to change this country, most people would actually gain. Um. But I don't think people think about it in that sense, particularly right Americans. And it's this isn't just white Americans. You have black elites who are like, oh, if if things change, we're gonna lose. You have, you know, different elites of color who think the same way, and and and that's just not true, um, and and and and I think that Unfortunately, UM, it's gonna take some time for people to realize that. And I think as we make changes and people see that, whoa, I actually thought I was gonna lose with the institutionalization of the Affordable Care Act, but I'm gaining This is actually good for me. Oh whoa, whoa, wait wait they're trying to do it. Wait with this No no, no no no no. Even though before I was against it, now I'm going to defend it. And so that's what I'm urging us to be focused on. We need to make people's lives better. We need to show them that by making these these huge changes, that they're gonna gain. There's no better proof than that when we come back the guilt and urgency that comes with the devastating cancer diagnosis at just thirty five, that's right after this. It feels as if you were we make take two steps forward, one step back. It's just a constant, dizzy kind of progress and then setbacks. Recently, Nicole Hannah Jones was denied this position at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. She was denied tenure by the board of trustees. What was your reaction to what happened to her and the outcry that resulted, and what did it tell you about the power and balance in the country that still exists? So I wasn't surprised and and that the board of Trustees at unc Chapel Hill would would politicize her her her tenure case and decide uh that they were going to deny her her tenure. And the reason why I wasn't surprised is because as someone who has been doing similar work within the academy UM, I know that what is expected of scholars and intellectuals like us, uh, you know, like Nicole um is sometimes we simply are unable no matter what we do, even if we're genius to her winner of Politzer Prize, winner MacArthur. Even if we've won, as Nicole has multiple national magazine awards, you know, even if we are the conceiver of one of the most important journalistic projects, uh, you know, of our time, that's still not enough because your politics, and I should say they're politics, uh, sort of block us. And and I think I took it very personally in the sense that I've seen that happen to so many people in the academy, um, you know obviously who weren't as well known as Nicole and and in certain ways I've I've had to overcome massive um uh speed bumps because of the type of work I was trying to do. So I was at the same time outraged because to me, she is a slam dunk um. You know, she's the type of person that, you know, any journalism school in the country would want to have tenured as a full professor teaching their students. At the same time, I wasn't surprised in the least. Have you spoken with her about this? I haven't spoken with her about this specific instance, but over the last year we have spoken about the similarity OVC of the attacks that we've both been receiving, right, And so you know, she has been just consistently with been an attack and you know, misrepresented for her sixty nineteen project and really her work in general. And obviously I've been consistently attacked, you know as well. And so I think we have reassured each other and and and been there for each other and been able to you know, share that you know, we were going through similar sort of experiences and um. But at the same time, I know how deeply she cares for students, journalism, students. I know how deeply she cares for this nation. I know how deeply she cares for for black life, and I know how um just brilliant she is as a thinker, you know, as a writer, you know, as and as a creator. And so I also took this personally as someone who who's a huge admirer, you know, of her, because to me, she should be celebrated as opposed to denied, you know, tenure, what should she do? Um, I think she should do what she has just continued to do amazingly despite the critiques on the six nineteen project and her work and her vision for the country. She has continued to power through and do her work. Um, but should she should she leave that institution? That's not something I can answer. Um, if it were you, would you? So? I think if I was in her shoes, I mean, I think I would consider it certainly. Um, but I'm not sure what I would. I'm not sure what I would do. I think a lot of people's eyes were opened in a way they hadn't been before. Uh. You know, they might conceive that racism exists, it's bad. But I think that many white Americans got a very important and and late education in racism because it was talked about in a way that had been only addressed around the edges really in media and in culture at large. How do we continue the conversation? How in a in a country that has a very short attention span and really demands almost instant gratification, uh and and and instant solutions. How can we continue these important conversations? How can we push for change? What is the most effective means of doing that? I think that we should think about this in terms of as individuals and as organizations and institutions, and so as individuals, each and every one of us can think about sort of what are we passionate about and knowledge about what sector? Um? You know, based on our hobbies or our profession, our interests, you know, where are we at in society? Are are we in you know, education? Are we in healthcare? Are we in the environment? Or we in sort of mass media? Where do we sit? Um? And then secondly, I think each and every one of us as individuals can think about, Okay, those organizations in our specific space that are challenging racism, that are trying to create equitable and just sectors or institutions and communities, how can we support them? Right? You know, what can we do as individuals to support them, whether through volunteering, whether providing our expertise, whether donating to those organizations? You know what do we have to give um to those efforts? Um? And then obviously each of us, most of us live in local communities, neighborhoods, working institutions, and so it's thinking about that in the same bandage point. You know, those folks who are working against this in my specific neighborhood, in my specific institution, how can I support them? I can't let you go without asking you about your health because you were diagnosed with something that affected me personally, I lost my husband to calling cancer in n he was forty two years old. And first and foremost, I want to see how you're doing, if if I can help you in any way, and how you're kind of soldiering on, because I know firsthand it's a rough road. Wow. Um. Well, first you know, of course, you know, UM, my heart of course goes out to your family and you know, I'm sure it's something that you've been living with. And I'm dealing with for for for quite some time. And I am elated. Whether elated is the best word, I don't know that recently the screening age was lower to and so there's a growing awareness of the number of young people who are being diagnosed UM and who are facing this um, this ugly disease. And I personally, I was recently, you know, scanned and everything looks looks fine, um, And so I think I've been doing good. I am don't have any noticeable cancer in my body. But you know, obviously it's just when you have stage four cancer, it's it can come back at any point. And so UM, I feel lucky. UM. And in a way, I feel almost like a survivor's guilt because of so many people who were diagnosed with the same disease who tragically are just not with us. And I'm always asking, you know, why me, why am I still here and not them? But I also try to soldier or on in, you know, as you sort of characterize it, to just do do good for the world, right um. And to even have a sense of urgency. I think the best aspect of facing this illness is, I know, you know, time is something that I know, it's it's it's it's not guaranteed, and we all know that theoretically, but you know, for me, it's you know, the idea, oh, we can just wait to do that. Well, I can't wait, you know, I don't know what's gonna happen at my next scan. I don't know what's going to happen, you know, two months from now, or if I start feeling, you know something, and and so I think it gives me a level of urgency. I think that's why some people are like, why are you doing all these different things? You know, why don't you wait to do this or that? And I'm like, wait for when? Right? Um? And And also I think we have to have a certain level of urgency because there's so many people who are suffering. Is that what propelled you? I mean, you're doing so much, Abram, And I know one of your latest project is that you've gotten together a chorus of black voices to talk about the African American experience. And you have put together this incredible roster of people. And was that born of what's happening to you personally? And because you're kind of your tentacles are are are reaching far and wide. I think so I for me, once an idea emerges in right, I obviously you know I can only I'm only one person. I can only do so much. I need support, UM. But for me, I tried to think about instead of whether we can do the idea, whether we can put together four Souls, which was just an unbelievable experience to really work with ninety writers, eight of who wrote five years of African American history amounting to forge years, and intent poets who almost acted like these lyrical soloists in the books. So every sort of UM section would end with with with with the poem to really commemorate the four symbolic birthday as we called it, of you know Black America. You know, for me, it's always okay, how can I not whether I can do it? But what type of support would I need to participate in this in this project if it's important? And I'm glad we were able to. I was able to work with Professor Keisha Blaine and we were able to put together four intred souls and their ninety writers in all, What did you learn from these people, because you have been so steeped in in this issue for a very long time, what did you personally kind of gleaned from their experiences that added to your own perspective? So, I think the biggest thing that I learned is just how universal history and the writing of history and the writing of the past is. So we have so many people who weren't necessarily trained historians who contributed to the text, but they were also they were able to write about the past from so many different vantage points in so many different ways, which made this story is so compelling And if anything, it taught me how we can write history in an accessible way, you know, bringing in people you know, many different people to do so well. Thank you for spending this time with me. I really enjoyed our conversation and um you've given me a lot to think about in terms of what more can I do, both individually and you know, collectively. So thank you, You're welcome. You're welcome, Katie, and you know again of course it admire your work. And um, she was so glad recently to see you on Jeopardy and should looked like you were having tremendous fun. I was very stressed, daddy from so You're black. You thought it looked like I was having fun. A huge thank you again to my guest dr Abrahm X. KNDy will link to all of his work in the description of this podcast, and you can catch his new podcast called The Anti Racist beginning June nine, and his new book, which he co edited with Kesha Blaine, is called four Hundred Souls, A Community History of African America six nineteen to two thousand nineteen. Buy it, read it, and spread the word. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie Currect on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question. Dr Evramex Kendy is one of the country's leading anti racist scholars, and in fact, everything that Dr Kendy does as a professor, an author, a researcher, a podcast host, a human is in an effort to reframe how we think about racism and how we fight it, and he's very prolific. In addition to his academic career, he just co edited a new book called four Hundred Souls. He's starting a new journalistic endeavor, an online publication centered on racial justice called The Emancipator, and he's creating a podcast based on his two thousand nineteen bestselling book, How to Be An Anti Racist. He is also a Stage four calling cancer survivor. I think it gives me a level of urgency. I think that's why some people are like, why are you doing all these different things? You know, why don't you wait to do this or that? And I'm like, wait for when? Even and I talk about that life changing diagnosis a little later in the show. I couldn't start our conversation though, without acknowledging that it's been a year since George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis, a year since, a nearly ten minute video of his death reverberated across the country, prompting all of us to look at ourselves, really look at ourselves collectively and individually. I asked Abraham if he would share his reflections on this somber anniversary. So I I wanted the nation to be at a different place at the one year anniversary of George Floyd's death. You know, certainly it is good that, um, the person who murdered him is being held accountable. Certainly, it is good that there is a larger number of Americans and indeed people around the world, who are aware of the existence of systemic racism, who are aware that there's that there's fundamental problems in American policing. But I was hoping that we would have begun to make some pretty drastic changes to actually ah to actually sort of solve these these systemic problems. And we're we're still in a moment in which we're arguing over whether even racism exists, um, And even though we live in a nation of racial inequities and you know that are all around us. So I am I have mixed feelings, you know, I'm elated that there's this awareness, and certainly more awareness than than this time last year. But at the same time, I am frustrated that there hasn't been more action. If you had a magic wand Abram and you could have said, these are the changes that we needed to see. These are the changes that make me feel hopeful about the future and the present, what would those have been. Part of this is about policy, and part of is it about framing. So as a result of the COVID nineteen pandemic, and even as a result of the economic pandemic within the pandemic, the number of Americans who've lost jobs, who've lost businesses, who have fallen into poverty, if we as a nation, uh would have not only provided relief as as we have to a certain extent to two people, but we would have also said that this relief isn't just relief to get people back on their feet, to get businesses going again. This is also a crime fighting measure. In other words, the communities, the neighborhoods in our nation with the highest levels of poverty and unemployment are also typically the neighborhoods with the highest levels of violent crying, and we consider the people in those neighborhoods, namely black people, to be dangerous, when indeed poverty is dangerous, when indeed unemployment is dangerous, When indeed housing insecurity and food insecurity is dangerous, and you know, indeed sexual sort of violence and patriarchy that it stems from is is dangerous. And so what can we do as a nation to completely transform the conditions? And that would have been the start, right and and and we would be working on how do we eliminate again housing insecurity, how do we eliminate the fact that so many Americans don't have access to to to quality healthcare um and and we would have again seen those as not only efforts to help people, but even efforts to to eliminate violent crime or reduce it. And I'm saying that because part of what happened to George Floyd is partially what happens to to to black people or even black men across this country. We're seeing as dangerous, We're seeing as the problem. And the solvent is, you know, more weapons or more armed people in our communities as opposed to weaponizing against the social conditions you know, in those communities. And so that's what I would have wanted us to be thinking that big um and and and broadly, do you think that they're our hopeful policy discussions going on right now, Abram about police brutality, about some of the disparities that were laid bare, not only as a result of what happened to George Floyd, but so many police killings involving black people, not just black men. Are you seeing the seeds of some policy conversations that you would like to see pushed faster? Further? So? In ethical New York, a very enterprising and courageous young mayor just decided that he was going to completely reimagine public safety in that city, and that he was going to essentially let go of the entire police force and completely reorganize it to the point in which some obviously officers hired, but others would be rehired to specifically focus, let's say, on on on on mental health services or social services, um and and and So, I think in part of the reason for that is because upwards at fift of people who are killed by police in this country have a have a mental illness or have a mental disability. Uh. There's also efforts in places like I believe San Francisco. And I think it's Berkeley, in which the police are no longer a large allowed to stop people for traffic stops. Why because there's so many people who die unarmed uh during traffic stops, as Dante Wright did in Minnesota. Um and and then there are certainly efforts to think more deeply about funding uh and and and I think, you know, Katy, this is the fundamental question, why are people committing crimes? Are people committing crimes out of despair and poverty and unemployment, or people committing crimes because there's something culturally or fundamentally wrong with them? And how we answer that question is going to determine how we sort of, you know, attack the issue. Um and So there are people asking that question and and building policy you know, around it. And I think we need to move away from this model of whether there are sort of bad apples of good apples, you know, in American policing. The issue isn't the individual cops. And I think that's where we trap ourselves because we all are related to cops. We all know, we've all interacted with with cops who have helped us. So that but that's not the issue that the issue is the fact that, uh, the the American the combined cost of American policing is more than every their military in the world combined, aside from the Chinese and the American military. That's the issue. So it's not about individual cops, It's about the structure. As you saw people take to the streets as the Black Lives Matter movement really gained steam and momentum following the death of George Floyd, was that something that you embraced and did it feel as if America was finally all Americans or many many Americans, not just sort of the prototypical Americans. The fact that it did seem to span the racial divide to a certain extent, was that heartening to you? It was? It was certainly heartening to me. I mean, the fact that you had demonstrations against police violence and systemic racism in every single state, in almost every single town, uh, no matter it's racial and economic sort of makeup, um, And I mean certainly was was was heartening to me, As some observers estimated that it was the largest series of demonstrations in American history and um, And so how could you not as someone like me who's who've been calling on Americans to to to to to to see the problem not as bad people, but to see it as as bad policy and um and as structural racism. How could I not be heartened? And and indeed, by June of last year, one survey found that seventies six percent of Americans we're reportedly saying that racism is a big problem. That's the highest number ever recorded UM for survey. And and so we'll we'll never get to a point on any issue where there's a of agreement. That's the beauty of humanity, right. We we see things differently, and we have different perspectives. But but obviously with some critical issues that is facing humanity, like bigotry, like climate change, like nuclear war, like pandemics, we have to have a governing majority that recognizes it as a problem so that we could, you know, keel from it when we come back anti racism for kids, while starting the conversation early is so important. That's right after this, This is so systemic and so foundational racism in America. And I know that you are working so hard, Abraham, to reframe and reshape the way we learn about race, the way you learned about race, and what was sort of force fed into you as a young man, and you're doing so much in that arena. But tell me about how you're trying to address this at a very young age, because it seems to me the more we're culturally conditioned, the harder it is to unlearn certain attitudes and behavior. I agree, I made it. You know, we as adults often talk about how hard it is to talk about race and racism. Part of that is because we only really started talking about it as adults. Right If if we would have been conditioned to talk about it and conditioned on how we should talk about it, you know, from a young age, then I think it would be easier for all of us. And so part of for me and ensuring that the youngest of people are are talking about this so that they have easier lives than we do right over this specific issue. But then also they don't grow up like I did, you know, thinking that that the problem is is black people. By the time I graduated high school in the year two thousand, not to date myself, UM, I had consumed a decade worth of of anti black ideas saying all the things that were wrong with black people, and I thought those ideas were true, and I thought, therefore that the problem that needed to be addressed were people were black people as opposed to systemic racism. And really, I've spent the last twenty one year is trying to unlearn uh those those those racist ideas that have been fed to me. And it's been unbelievably difficult. And I only wish that I would have instead of learning racist ideas, I would have learned anti racist ideas, because then I could have built and I feel like I would have been so much further along right now in my life. And in fact, you write very movingly about in many ways you had to accommodate these anti black narratives from an early age, and instead of looking at your potential, your potential was kind of imposed on you. Yeah, and because they think about it, if in the nineties, if there was ever a decade in American history where like black youth were considered the American problem, which so much of American politics revolved around around black youth. Um, you know, it was the nineties, and and so if you're constantly being told there's something wrong with black youth, and you are a black youngster and you struggle in any capacity. It's easy for you to delete. But I'm struggling in this way because I'm a black youth, right as opposed to you know, I'm struggling in this way because I should be working harder, or I should be doing this, or I should be doing that, and um and so it. By the time I graduated high school, I was deeply self conscious, you know, about even my academic, uh skills, whether I was even worthy of college. I only end up graduate applying for two colleges because I didn't feel that I was worthy of college. I was shocked when one of the colleges, the first of the two, admitted me, like literally, I did not think I was college material. And and you know, I always wonder how much of that had to do with this internalized idea that there was something wrong with people like me. You are now working to to kind of stop that conditioning and young kids with a picture book you have The Anti Race Is Baby. You also have a two thousand sixteen books stamp. From the beginning, it was just rewritten for middle school students and talk about what you're trying to do in terms of shaping their perspective and why that is. I think you really just described why. That's so critically important because you want them to not be in your situation when you were a high school senior thinking you had no right or or college material. So talk about those projects. So first, I think as as caretakers, as people who love young people, and I have people love young people. Um, I think it's important for us to recognize that they see racial inequality. Um it's not hard to see, right, And so they're going to see that some people, namely white people, have more. They're gonna see that other people, you know, let's say, you know, black and brown people have less. The question that they're gonna be asking is why. And but they're also going to live in a society where they are these messages that are told to adults and young people that that there's something wrong with black people and something wrong something right about white people. And so you take you separate those two and you put them together. Young people, If we're not talking to them about why certain people have more and other people have less, will they not conclude that white people have more because they are born. Will they not conclude that black people have less because they are less? Will they not then look at themselves? Will not a young white boy say I'm special because I'm white, as opposed to I'm special because I'm nice or because I'm inquisitive. Well, not a young black girl say, uh, there's something wrong with me because of the color of my skin. Will that not affect their development in terms of whether, you know, self esteem or even conceit. You know, we don't want our kids thinking to high or low of themselves. Um, But ultimately, will they have an accurate rendering of society? Uh? And and and the key to this isn't you know to teach them that, uh the opposite of those ideas that you know, white people are less or black people are more. The key is, well, you know, this is the result of bad rules that have favored certain groups of people over the course of time and still do. Just like you know, you don't like your curfew or your bedtime. You know their rules in society that have created these inequalities. And and it's and and these uh inequities don't just exist between let's say, black and Native people. They also exist between white people. In other words, certain wealthy white people have certain advantages over certain white poor people, and white poor people are called white trash. Which is a racialized term, and you shouldn't think of anybody, any group of people in that way. And and so there's so many different It allows us to really get at and explain why inequality exists, and and and it allows young people to not think that there's something wrong with people. I I I'm gonna continue to say this, like, it is so important for us to teach adults and young people that the groups, the racial groups are equals. And that doesn't mean that the individuals within the groups are all the same. You know, I know some black folks and white folks who work harder than me. Right, It's but when we talk about groups, to say that a particular racial group works harder or as lazier, or as more gifted or more smarter than another group, that the problem. Let's talk about the royal Critical race theory has in this because it's become you know, a dirty phrase amongst certain segments of the population. And I think it's quite misunderstood because like so many things in our current culture, it's become weaponized. So, you know, I think can we begin by just explaining what critical race theory is and why it doesn't need to be a dirty phrase, sure. So, I think critical race theory emerged in the late nineteen seventies and especially in the nineteen eighties, specifically among legal scholars and lawyers and activists who recognized by the nineteen eighties that racial inequity in housing and education and criminal justice in the environment, we're persisting after civil rights and and so critical race theorists then started to examine the structure of policies and power, uh, many of which were perceived to be race neutral, that was maintaining the inequity. In other words, the critical examination of structural racism. And and it wasn't necessarily an attack on white people, as it's consistently being framed. It was an attack on structure, on policies, on practices that we're leading to this inequity, you know, an injustice. And and I think it's unfortunate that critical race theory, which again started out in legal circles and now has expanded to to other circles. One of the personally one of the most fascinating interventions of critical race theory was was by Kimberly Crenshaw, who who coined the term intersectionality, in which she really wanted us to think about the intersection of let's say, racism and sexism and the way it was impacting black women. So you can't really understand what's impacting these the race genders without understanding both um and and this gave us the tools to really analyze our society and the laws, in particular that we're maintaining inequity, which is why it's sort of derived from legal theory. And the governor of Idaho recently signed a bill to ban it. What happened? How did critical race theory become a weapon by the status quo or by certain segments of the population or political groups. So I think I mentioned earlier how last June, seventies six percent of Americans that we're recognizing that's just that that racism is a big problem. Um And ever since the June there has been a concerted effort to basically chip away at that highest ever percentage of of of of sort of anti racist awareness in this country. And this is the latest effort, um and and the and and and largely because so let's say, for instance, if you are a legislator who recognizes that the ideology of the country and the demographics of the country are moving away from you such that you can't get elected if everyone is easily able to vote. So what you're going to do is figure out ways to suppress the votes of your political opponents. And if you tailor those laws to specifically target black and brown indigenous voters, whether they're written into the law or not, those are racist policies. But how do you get away with those racist policies by convincing your constituents in the American people that racist policies don't exist and that actually the real problem are those people who are identifying certain policies as racists. You know, those are the real racist, the people who talk about racism, um, not the policies themselves. So that allows you to get away with those policies, uh, continue to pass them, continue to think caused people to think, uh that that uh, that the problem are those who are identifying racism rather than the racism itself. And then you're able to convince your constituents, who now it's harder even for them to vote, that those policies are not only good for them, but they're also not racist. And and so to me that it's part of a larger plot and plan to establish sort of a very small segment of people bull controlling the rest of us. Is it the the last gasp of a white patriarchal system. I'd like to hope so. Um and I like to hope so, because even the white patriarchal system white men, for instance, many many millions of white men right now are not benefiting from it. Uh. You know, and to give an example, you know, we have this epidemic right now that we're not talking about of white male suicide by hand gun. Uh. And the levels of white men who are who are dying be a suicide by handgun are at the levels of black men who die by homicides. Um and And so why is that and where is this primarily happening? This is primarily happening uh in states that are controlled by politicians who primarily say they're defenders of white men. Right. And I'm going to make it easier for you. I'm gonna make sure that you know you have your Second Amendment rights. I'm gonna make sure you have access to guns so you can protect you and your family and your your quote women from those black criminals, those Latino X immigrants, and those Muslim terrors. So then people they're able to get guns and now they're killing themselves and uh and it's a tragedy. You know, it's a tragedy that continues to happen, just as you have so many white working class uh men who were devastated by this pandemic and this previous presidency. You know, at the same time they are imagining that that certain elected officials are seeking to benefit. Then we become so tribalistic, abram and it seems like that we're just a society of warring tribes that you know, it's a zero sum game, and that someone else's move towards equality is going to hurt someone else. I'll never forget I worked at a network and the guy said to me, here, someone else's success diminishes you, someone else's failure elevates you. Well, you can imagine I wasn't very excited about working at this organization. And I feel like that you could almost apply that to society today. How do how do we get out of this trap of feeling that if someone else does well, we're not going to do well, and that there's something important and beautiful dare I say about leveling a playing field? So I actually, I actually think this is extremely important issue and and and it's certainly an issue that Heather McGee addresses in her new book called The Some of Us Um, in which she pushes back against this sort of zero sum myth of American society, and specifically the myth that many white Americans have um that as people of color gain, they lose in the greatest in the in the most general sense, what I would actually urge white Americans to think about it's to not compare their lot two people of color. I think white Americans should be comparing their lot to white Canadians, to white folks in Europe, and think about what do they have that you don't have, Whether it's universal health care, universit of child care, whether it's lower levels of income um and economic you know, inequality, whether it's lower levels of white people dying by police, and on and on. Uh. And I think once if if I think white Americans was to change their frame of reference two. Okay, you know what, my kid goes to a first class school, and if we change things, they're gonna have to go back and coach. You know, Actually, why can't all of our kids be going to like private jet schools, which you haven't personally even been exposed to right and and and why can't all of us have that level of resources, you know, for our children, Because if we were to change this country, most people would actually gain. Um. But I don't think people think about it in that sense, particularly right Americans. And it's this isn't just white Americans. You have black elites who are like, oh, if if things change, we're gonna lose. You have, you know, different elites of color who think the same way, and and and that's just not true, um, and and and and I think that Unfortunately, UM, it's gonna take some time for people to realize that. And I think as we make changes and people see that, whoa, I actually thought I was gonna lose with the institutionalization of the Affordable Care Act, but I'm gaining This is actually good for me. Oh whoa, whoa, wait wait they're trying to do it. Wait with this No no, no no no no. Even though before I was against it, now I'm going to defend it. And so that's what I'm urging us to be focused on. We need to make people's lives better. We need to show them that by making these these huge changes, that they're gonna gain. There's no better proof than that when we come back the guilt and urgency that comes with the devastating cancer diagnosis at just thirty five, that's right after this. It feels as if you were we make take two steps forward, one step back. It's just a constant, dizzy kind of progress and then setbacks. Recently, Nicole Hannah Jones was denied this position at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. She was denied tenure by the board of trustees. What was your reaction to what happened to her and the outcry that resulted, and what did it tell you about the power and balance in the country that still exists? So I wasn't surprised and and that the board of Trustees at unc Chapel Hill would would politicize her her her tenure case and decide uh that they were going to deny her her tenure. And the reason why I wasn't surprised is because as someone who has been doing similar work within the academy UM, I know that what is expected of scholars and intellectuals like us, uh, you know, like Nicole um is sometimes we simply are unable no matter what we do, even if we're genius to her winner of Politzer Prize, winner MacArthur. Even if we've won, as Nicole has multiple national magazine awards, you know, even if we are the conceiver of one of the most important journalistic projects, uh, you know, of our time, that's still not enough because your politics, and I should say they're politics, uh, sort of block us. And and I think I took it very personally in the sense that I've seen that happen to so many people in the academy, um, you know obviously who weren't as well known as Nicole and and in certain ways I've I've had to overcome massive um uh speed bumps because of the type of work I was trying to do. So I was at the same time outraged because to me, she is a slam dunk um. You know, she's the type of person that, you know, any journalism school in the country would want to have tenured as a full professor teaching their students. At the same time, I wasn't surprised in the least. Have you spoken with her about this? I haven't spoken with her about this specific instance, but over the last year we have spoken about the similarity OVC of the attacks that we've both been receiving, right, And so you know, she has been just consistently with been an attack and you know, misrepresented for her sixty nineteen project and really her work in general. And obviously I've been consistently attacked, you know as well. And so I think we have reassured each other and and and been there for each other and been able to you know, share that you know, we were going through similar sort of experiences and um. But at the same time, I know how deeply she cares for students, journalism, students. I know how deeply she cares for this nation. I know how deeply she cares for for black life, and I know how um just brilliant she is as a thinker, you know, as a writer, you know, as and as a creator. And so I also took this personally as someone who who's a huge admirer, you know, of her, because to me, she should be celebrated as opposed to denied, you know, tenure, what should she do? Um, I think she should do what she has just continued to do amazingly despite the critiques on the six nineteen project and her work and her vision for the country. She has continued to power through and do her work. Um, but should she should she leave that institution? That's not something I can answer. Um, if it were you, would you? So? I think if I was in her shoes, I mean, I think I would consider it certainly. Um, but I'm not sure what I would. I'm not sure what I would do. I think a lot of people's eyes were opened in a way they hadn't been before. Uh. You know, they might conceive that racism exists, it's bad. But I think that many white Americans got a very important and and late education in racism because it was talked about in a way that had been only addressed around the edges really in media and in culture at large. How do we continue the conversation? How in a in a country that has a very short attention span and really demands almost instant gratification, uh and and and instant solutions. How can we continue these important conversations? How can we push for change? What is the most effective means of doing that? I think that we should think about this in terms of as individuals and as organizations and institutions, and so as individuals, each and every one of us can think about sort of what are we passionate about and knowledge about what sector? Um? You know, based on our hobbies or our profession, our interests, you know, where are we at in society? Are are we in you know, education? Are we in healthcare? Are we in the environment? Or we in sort of mass media? Where do we sit? Um? And then secondly, I think each and every one of us as individuals can think about, Okay, those organizations in our specific space that are challenging racism, that are trying to create equitable and just sectors or institutions and communities, how can we support them? Right? You know, what can we do as individuals to support them, whether through volunteering, whether providing our expertise, whether donating to those organizations? You know what do we have to give um to those efforts? Um? And then obviously each of us, most of us live in local communities, neighborhoods, working institutions, and so it's thinking about that in the same bandage point. You know, those folks who are working against this in my specific neighborhood, in my specific institution, how can I support them? I can't let you go without asking you about your health because you were diagnosed with something that affected me personally, I lost my husband to calling cancer in n he was forty two years old. And first and foremost, I want to see how you're doing, if if I can help you in any way, and how you're kind of soldiering on, because I know firsthand it's a rough road. Wow. Um. Well, first you know, of course, you know, UM, my heart of course goes out to your family and you know, I'm sure it's something that you've been living with. And I'm dealing with for for for quite some time. And I am elated. Whether elated is the best word, I don't know that recently the screening age was lower to and so there's a growing awareness of the number of young people who are being diagnosed UM and who are facing this um, this ugly disease. And I personally, I was recently, you know, scanned and everything looks looks fine, um, And so I think I've been doing good. I am don't have any noticeable cancer in my body. But you know, obviously it's just when you have stage four cancer, it's it can come back at any point. And so UM, I feel lucky. UM. And in a way, I feel almost like a survivor's guilt because of so many people who were diagnosed with the same disease who tragically are just not with us. And I'm always asking, you know, why me, why am I still here and not them? But I also try to soldier or on in, you know, as you sort of characterize it, to just do do good for the world, right um. And to even have a sense of urgency. I think the best aspect of facing this illness is, I know, you know, time is something that I know, it's it's it's it's not guaranteed, and we all know that theoretically, but you know, for me, it's you know, the idea, oh, we can just wait to do that. Well, I can't wait, you know, I don't know what's gonna happen at my next scan. I don't know what's going to happen, you know, two months from now, or if I start feeling, you know something, and and so I think it gives me a level of urgency. I think that's why some people are like, why are you doing all these different things? You know, why don't you wait to do this or that? And I'm like, wait for when? Right? Um? And And also I think we have to have a certain level of urgency because there's so many people who are suffering. Is that what propelled you? I mean, you're doing so much, Abram, And I know one of your latest project is that you've gotten together a chorus of black voices to talk about the African American experience. And you have put together this incredible roster of people. And was that born of what's happening to you personally? And because you're kind of your tentacles are are are reaching far and wide. I think so I for me, once an idea emerges in right, I obviously you know I can only I'm only one person. I can only do so much. I need support, UM. But for me, I tried to think about instead of whether we can do the idea, whether we can put together four Souls, which was just an unbelievable experience to really work with ninety writers, eight of who wrote five years of African American history amounting to forge years, and intent poets who almost acted like these lyrical soloists in the books. So every sort of UM section would end with with with with the poem to really commemorate the four symbolic birthday as we called it, of you know Black America. You know, for me, it's always okay, how can I not whether I can do it? But what type of support would I need to participate in this in this project if it's important? And I'm glad we were able to. I was able to work with Professor Keisha Blaine and we were able to put together four intred souls and their ninety writers in all, What did you learn from these people, because you have been so steeped in in this issue for a very long time, what did you personally kind of gleaned from their experiences that added to your own perspective? So, I think the biggest thing that I learned is just how universal history and the writing of history and the writing of the past is. So we have so many people who weren't necessarily trained historians who contributed to the text, but they were also they were able to write about the past from so many different vantage points in so many different ways, which made this story is so compelling And if anything, it taught me how we can write history in an accessible way, you know, bringing in people you know, many different people to do so well. Thank you for spending this time with me. I really enjoyed our conversation and um you've given me a lot to think about in terms of what more can I do, both individually and you know, collectively. So thank you, You're welcome. You're welcome, Katie, and you know again of course it admire your work. And um, she was so glad recently to see you on Jeopardy and should looked like you were having tremendous fun. I was very stressed, daddy from so You're black. You thought it looked like I was having fun. A huge thank you again to my guest dr Abrahm X. KNDy will link to all of his work in the description of this podcast, and you can catch his new podcast called The Anti Racist beginning June nine, and his new book, which he co edited with Kesha Blaine, is called four Hundred Souls, A Community History of African America six nineteen to two thousand nineteen. Buy it, read it, and spread the word. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie Currect on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,