What if there were a way to reduce cancer desks by half in the next twenty five years. This is the future Exact Sciences works toward every single day because they believe it's possible. Exact Sciences is a dedicated team of cancer fighters united by a purpose to help eradicate cancer by preventing it, detecting it earlier, and guiding personalized treatment. Visit exact sciences dot com to learn more. Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Kuric and this is next question. So everyone, Our guests today used to have an office just three doors down from the Oval One. Pretty cool, right. You may know them from their hilarious Sharpest Attack political podcast pod Save America, Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeter. Apparently their other co host, John Lovett, is somewhere taping the next season of Survivor What Anyway. John and Tommy worked for the Obama administration. John was a speech writer and Tommy shape press coverage of national security issues. Then they started their own company, Crooked Media, after the election of one Donald J. Trump. Now they've got a whole slew of podcasts and are busy trying to keep up with the increasingly insane world of American politics. I've loved talking to these guys about everything, including their notebook called Democracy or Else, how to Save America in ten easy steps for people who are feeling powerless and quite frankly, scared to death. They hope this will be a kind of self help book for getting involved and actually doing something. We talked about so many things, and honestly, when our conversation was over, I still had so many questions I wanted to ask them, but we only had an hour, so I did the best I could. We talked about their book, of course, but also the upcoming debate pre election, jitters, Joe Biden's decision to run for reelection, and Donald Trump's recent conviction. You don't have to be a political junkie to enjoy these two. So here's my conversation with Jon Favreau and Tommy veter. Hi, guys, the first question I have for you is, how are you feeling about the election? Slash state of the world? A hopeless, be hopeful, see a combination of the two, Which is it?

What if there were a way to reduce cancer desks by half in the next twenty five years. This is the future Exact Sciences works toward every single day because they believe it's possible. Exact Sciences is a dedicated team of cancer fighters united by a purpose to help eradicate cancer by preventing it, detecting it earlier, and guiding personalized treatment. Visit exact sciences dot com to learn more. Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Kuric and this is next question. So everyone, Our guests today used to have an office just three doors down from the Oval One. Pretty cool, right. You may know them from their hilarious Sharpest Attack political podcast pod Save America, Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeter. Apparently their other co host, John Lovett, is somewhere taping the next season of Survivor What Anyway. John and Tommy worked for the Obama administration. John was a speech writer and Tommy shape press coverage of national security issues. Then they started their own company, Crooked Media, after the election of one Donald J. Trump. Now they've got a whole slew of podcasts and are busy trying to keep up with the increasingly insane world of American politics. I've loved talking to these guys about everything, including their notebook called Democracy or Else, how to Save America in ten easy steps for people who are feeling powerless and quite frankly, scared to death. They hope this will be a kind of self help book for getting involved and actually doing something. We talked about so many things, and honestly, when our conversation was over, I still had so many questions I wanted to ask them, but we only had an hour, so I did the best I could. We talked about their book, of course, but also the upcoming debate pre election, jitters, Joe Biden's decision to run for reelection, and Donald Trump's recent conviction. You don't have to be a political junkie to enjoy these two. So here's my conversation with Jon Favreau and Tommy veter. Hi, guys, the first question I have for you is, how are you feeling about the election? Slash state of the world? A hopeless, be hopeful, see a combination of the two, Which is it?

I mean, I guess I would have to say see, though I'm never really hopeless, I'm more terrified than hopeless, So I definitely feel anxious about the election, anxious about the state of the world and politics, think about it all the time. I think this is going to be an extremely c election, even if you put the polls aside. Last election was extremely close, right, Joe Biden only won by about forty thousand votes across three states, and the politics has become not just nastier people used to say that like ten years ago, just way more extreme and potentially you know, we saw we saw violence on January sixth. So I do think that as a country, we're in a we're in a really bad place politically, and it makes the stakes of these elections so much higher. And you know that's when they're when they're decided on a razor's edge. That makes it a makes it a tough time.

I mean, I guess I would have to say see, though I'm never really hopeless, I'm more terrified than hopeless, So I definitely feel anxious about the election, anxious about the state of the world and politics, think about it all the time. I think this is going to be an extremely c election, even if you put the polls aside. Last election was extremely close, right, Joe Biden only won by about forty thousand votes across three states, and the politics has become not just nastier people used to say that like ten years ago, just way more extreme and potentially you know, we saw we saw violence on January sixth. So I do think that as a country, we're in a we're in a really bad place politically, and it makes the stakes of these elections so much higher. And you know that's when they're when they're decided on a razor's edge. That makes it a makes it a tough time.

Very anxiety producing. How about you, Tommy, It is.

Very anxiety producing. How about you, Tommy, It is.

Very anxiety producing. I think, you know, I think we're a fifty to fifty country and I am very anxious about the possibility of Trump winning again. I think, you know, on some level, the fact that it's even close is you know, shocking and upsetting given what we saw in January sixth. I do think though, you know, you said the country and the state of the world. When I look around the world, I see far eye parties doing better in places like Germany, in France and other parts of Europe, in part because countries are dealing with some of the same challenges around migration and inflation and broader economic issues that we are. So there is a bit of a bad trend in the US right now. In some parts of the world, that trend is not universal, Like I think we're about to see the Tory Party the Conservatives in England get romped and the Labor Party will likely win those elections on July fourth, So it's a bit of a mixed bag. But yeah, I mean, you know, I'm just sort of always anxious as basically what the answer is.

Very anxiety producing. I think, you know, I think we're a fifty to fifty country and I am very anxious about the possibility of Trump winning again. I think, you know, on some level, the fact that it's even close is you know, shocking and upsetting given what we saw in January sixth. I do think though, you know, you said the country and the state of the world. When I look around the world, I see far eye parties doing better in places like Germany, in France and other parts of Europe, in part because countries are dealing with some of the same challenges around migration and inflation and broader economic issues that we are. So there is a bit of a bad trend in the US right now. In some parts of the world, that trend is not universal, Like I think we're about to see the Tory Party the Conservatives in England get romped and the Labor Party will likely win those elections on July fourth, So it's a bit of a mixed bag. But yeah, I mean, you know, I'm just sort of always anxious as basically what the answer is.

You touched on why populism is on the rise worldwide, and obviously I think you're right, it's fueled by immigration, inflation, But what else is driving it? What else is driving this pretty dramatic turn to the right in many of.

You touched on why populism is on the rise worldwide, and obviously I think you're right, it's fueled by immigration, inflation, But what else is driving it? What else is driving this pretty dramatic turn to the right in many of.

These I think another factor is the way the media environment has changed as well. And I think, you know, the days just here in the United States, right the days of most people getting their news from a couple different sources allowed everyone to have some semblance of a shared reality and also allowed our elected officials to communicate with wide swaths of the electorate. And so, you know, when a president, president had the bully pulpit, and the bully pulpit was always an advantage. And now I think the bully pulpit just doesn't reach all that many people. And if you're a campaign and you're trying to communicate with your voters, trying to figure out where they are, how they're getting their news, what the best way to reach them is is incredibly difficult. And a lot of people are getting their news from places where they're either consuming misinformation or they're just consuming sort of a type of content that makes them cynical and distrustful of institutions.

These I think another factor is the way the media environment has changed as well. And I think, you know, the days just here in the United States, right the days of most people getting their news from a couple different sources allowed everyone to have some semblance of a shared reality and also allowed our elected officials to communicate with wide swaths of the electorate. And so, you know, when a president, president had the bully pulpit, and the bully pulpit was always an advantage. And now I think the bully pulpit just doesn't reach all that many people. And if you're a campaign and you're trying to communicate with your voters, trying to figure out where they are, how they're getting their news, what the best way to reach them is is incredibly difficult. And a lot of people are getting their news from places where they're either consuming misinformation or they're just consuming sort of a type of content that makes them cynical and distrustful of institutions.

And it makes them more deeply entrenched in their point of view. As a friend of mine says, people are getting affirmation instead of information, so it just makes them dig in even more.

And it makes them more deeply entrenched in their point of view. As a friend of mine says, people are getting affirmation instead of information, so it just makes them dig in even more.

Yes, yeah, yeah, I also think, you know, the classic populism is kind of we the in group are getting screwed by this out group, so therefore we're going to harm the out group. And also we're going to expand social services for the people who are part of the in group, and I think that's a pretty effective recipe. But we're also seeing in places like Argentina. They recently elected a guy named Javier Mile and he would show us so imagine in your mind what a stunt double for a Wolverine movie looks like, and it's this guy. And he would show up to campaign events with a literal chainsaw and say this is what I'm going to do to the system. And I think what he represents is he calls himself an anarcho capitalist. He is basically trying to get Argentina's an inflation problem under control by slashing the government in half. And what he represents, though, is a brand of politics that says the system is broken, it is irreparably damaged, it is screwing you, so let's burn it down. And I think that's the other piece of populism you're seeing.

Yes, yeah, yeah, I also think, you know, the classic populism is kind of we the in group are getting screwed by this out group, so therefore we're going to harm the out group. And also we're going to expand social services for the people who are part of the in group, and I think that's a pretty effective recipe. But we're also seeing in places like Argentina. They recently elected a guy named Javier Mile and he would show us so imagine in your mind what a stunt double for a Wolverine movie looks like, and it's this guy. And he would show up to campaign events with a literal chainsaw and say this is what I'm going to do to the system. And I think what he represents is he calls himself an anarcho capitalist. He is basically trying to get Argentina's an inflation problem under control by slashing the government in half. And what he represents, though, is a brand of politics that says the system is broken, it is irreparably damaged, it is screwing you, so let's burn it down. And I think that's the other piece of populism you're seeing.

Also. I remember in twenty twelve when we were working on a couple of speeches for President Obama ahead of his reelection against Mitt Romney, and we did this big speech on inequality, economic inequality, and Obama had decided that he wanted to sort of define the election around this yawning, growing gap between the rich and everyone else. And one of the arguments he made in the speech, and I hadn't really thought about it until then, is he said, you know, economic inequality makes democracy so much harder because if people feel like the system is not working for them, that the government is not working for them, not fighting for them, that it's only taking care of the rich and the powerful, like they're not going to have faith in the system. And that was twenty twelve. And if you've, if we've seen everything that's happened over the last decade or so, you know that that has only has only gotten more extreme.

Also. I remember in twenty twelve when we were working on a couple of speeches for President Obama ahead of his reelection against Mitt Romney, and we did this big speech on inequality, economic inequality, and Obama had decided that he wanted to sort of define the election around this yawning, growing gap between the rich and everyone else. And one of the arguments he made in the speech, and I hadn't really thought about it until then, is he said, you know, economic inequality makes democracy so much harder because if people feel like the system is not working for them, that the government is not working for them, not fighting for them, that it's only taking care of the rich and the powerful, like they're not going to have faith in the system. And that was twenty twelve. And if you've, if we've seen everything that's happened over the last decade or so, you know that that has only has only gotten more extreme.

I talked about that when I did Bill Maher's podcast and got absolutely eviscerated by the right because I said that income at equality fuels a lot of class resentment, and that you know, all these uber rich people are getting richer and richer, and then you have other people who don't have four hundred dollars to pay in the event of an emergency. That creates a lot of class resentment, anti elitism and anti intellectualism, just sort of anti everything, honestly, And I said that, you know, it's a terrible feeling, corrosive feeling to feel jealous and resentful. I have felt that before. I remember being in my twenties and seeing people in my neighborhood in Atlanta driving around in nice cars, and I lived in a one bedroom apartment, and I really thought, I'm never going to be able to afford a nice home and a nice car. And the way that made you feel it was just like it was resentment slash anger and anyway, the right wing media said, I said Trump voters were jealous and anti intellectual, and actually I was trying to be empathetic with people who felt like the system wasn't working for them, who had been left out of the American dream, who were in these hollowed out American cities where you know, the industrial aspect of where they lived was could put so anyway.

I talked about that when I did Bill Maher's podcast and got absolutely eviscerated by the right because I said that income at equality fuels a lot of class resentment, and that you know, all these uber rich people are getting richer and richer, and then you have other people who don't have four hundred dollars to pay in the event of an emergency. That creates a lot of class resentment, anti elitism and anti intellectualism, just sort of anti everything, honestly, And I said that, you know, it's a terrible feeling, corrosive feeling to feel jealous and resentful. I have felt that before. I remember being in my twenties and seeing people in my neighborhood in Atlanta driving around in nice cars, and I lived in a one bedroom apartment, and I really thought, I'm never going to be able to afford a nice home and a nice car. And the way that made you feel it was just like it was resentment slash anger and anyway, the right wing media said, I said Trump voters were jealous and anti intellectual, and actually I was trying to be empathetic with people who felt like the system wasn't working for them, who had been left out of the American dream, who were in these hollowed out American cities where you know, the industrial aspect of where they lived was could put so anyway.

Well, in the entire project of the right under Donald Trump has been to seize on that resentment that you're describing and tried to direct it away from you know, wealthy corporations and CEOs and towards sort of the cultural elite and the political elite.

Well, in the entire project of the right under Donald Trump has been to seize on that resentment that you're describing and tried to direct it away from you know, wealthy corporations and CEOs and towards sort of the cultural elite and the political elite.

And I guess that's why they were all kind of target me when I tried to make that point.

And I guess that's why they were all kind of target me when I tried to make that point.

Right, yeah, yeah, And look, it's an old playbook, right, like Nixon did this back in the early seventies, but I think it has I think the differences today. Also, you know you were talking about having that feeling when you were in your neighborhood. Well, now social media has made it so that like wealth and power and status is in everyone's face all the time. And so I think it's easier to gin up that kind of resentment in this media environment with social media than it was even you know, years ago.

Right, yeah, yeah, And look, it's an old playbook, right, like Nixon did this back in the early seventies, but I think it has I think the differences today. Also, you know you were talking about having that feeling when you were in your neighborhood. Well, now social media has made it so that like wealth and power and status is in everyone's face all the time. And so I think it's easier to gin up that kind of resentment in this media environment with social media than it was even you know, years ago.

It's so confusing because right, I mean we've watched over the last couple of weeks, You've seen this sort of pr effort by Elon Musk to get shareholders at Tesla to vote in favor of giving him I think it was a forty six billion dollar pay package, and he was rallying people behind this. I'm thinking to myself, like, why does it Why are people supporting this?

It's so confusing because right, I mean we've watched over the last couple of weeks, You've seen this sort of pr effort by Elon Musk to get shareholders at Tesla to vote in favor of giving him I think it was a forty six billion dollar pay package, and he was rallying people behind this. I'm thinking to myself, like, why does it Why are people supporting this?

Right?

Right?

Because you're right, I think I heard this morning, I can't remember the source that savings rates were at historic lows for Americans. So people are actually you know, really challenging unge by inflation, and so Republicans, I think are very good at identifying the problem the unfair trade deals, the way they've harmed people talking about income inequality, people like Trump of Demagoguna A.

Because you're right, I think I heard this morning, I can't remember the source that savings rates were at historic lows for Americans. So people are actually you know, really challenging unge by inflation, and so Republicans, I think are very good at identifying the problem the unfair trade deals, the way they've harmed people talking about income inequality, people like Trump of Demagoguna A.

Jd.

Jd.

Vance is good at talking about a Republican from Ohio, but the solutions they put forward make things worse. For example, the twenty seventeen Republican tax cut cut Big Pharma's taxes by more than forty percent. So from twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen, the industry paid an effective tax rate of nineteen point six percent on average. In twenty nineteen to twenty twenty, it paid just eleven point six percent. That's what the Trump agenda gets you, a huge tax cut for big pharma. This was data according to Ron Wyden's Senate Finance Committee.

Vance is good at talking about a Republican from Ohio, but the solutions they put forward make things worse. For example, the twenty seventeen Republican tax cut cut Big Pharma's taxes by more than forty percent. So from twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen, the industry paid an effective tax rate of nineteen point six percent on average. In twenty nineteen to twenty twenty, it paid just eleven point six percent. That's what the Trump agenda gets you, a huge tax cut for big pharma. This was data according to Ron Wyden's Senate Finance Committee.

But why is there such a disconnect? Why do people think, I mean, gosh, this is what's left a lot of people scratching their heads ever since twenty sixteen. Why do people think that Donald Trump is going to make their lives better? It is confounding to me.

But why is there such a disconnect? Why do people think, I mean, gosh, this is what's left a lot of people scratching their heads ever since twenty sixteen. Why do people think that Donald Trump is going to make their lives better? It is confounding to me.

Yeah, what I have come to think is is for a lot of voters, they don't think that either party or any politician is going to necessarily make their lives better, and so what they see in Donald Trump is someone who is just going to smash the system. And that makes them feel good, right, because it like, well, at least he's gonna at least he's my guy. He's going to like fight for me where he can. And I don't necessarily expect him to help me. But you know, he's also, as Tommy was saying, he's very good at blaming others. Right. And so if Donald Trump tells you, well, you know, you would you'd be making more and you we'd have more jobs. If we just got rid of all these undocumented immigrants, then your life would be better. If we just cleaned up the crime and we got tough and let the police get tough on crime in these cities, your life would be better. And you know, unlike even Mitt Romney or the Republicans of yesteryear, Donald Trump doesn't talk a lot about giving huge tax cuts to corporations, giving huge tax cuts to the wealthy. It's not publicly, not publicly, right, No, that's all in their agenda fundraisers. Yeah, but they have you know, Trump has taught most of the Republican Party to sort of hide the economic agenda that is not very popular with most people in this country, and to really lean on sort of the cultural resentment, the racial resentment, the xenophobia that does unfortunately work with a lot of you know, working class and middle class people of all races. By the way, in this country.

Yeah, what I have come to think is is for a lot of voters, they don't think that either party or any politician is going to necessarily make their lives better, and so what they see in Donald Trump is someone who is just going to smash the system. And that makes them feel good, right, because it like, well, at least he's gonna at least he's my guy. He's going to like fight for me where he can. And I don't necessarily expect him to help me. But you know, he's also, as Tommy was saying, he's very good at blaming others. Right. And so if Donald Trump tells you, well, you know, you would you'd be making more and you we'd have more jobs. If we just got rid of all these undocumented immigrants, then your life would be better. If we just cleaned up the crime and we got tough and let the police get tough on crime in these cities, your life would be better. And you know, unlike even Mitt Romney or the Republicans of yesteryear, Donald Trump doesn't talk a lot about giving huge tax cuts to corporations, giving huge tax cuts to the wealthy. It's not publicly, not publicly, right, No, that's all in their agenda fundraisers. Yeah, but they have you know, Trump has taught most of the Republican Party to sort of hide the economic agenda that is not very popular with most people in this country, and to really lean on sort of the cultural resentment, the racial resentment, the xenophobia that does unfortunately work with a lot of you know, working class and middle class people of all races. By the way, in this country.

I wanted to talk to you about the media environment just because things have changed so dramatically since when I got into TV news, and now it is so fragmented, so fractured, and so partisan, right, a lot of it. But one of the things you point out in your new book called Democracy or Else, and we're going to talk about the other things in your book in a moment, is that the good old days weren't that good actually, when you had sort of three white males on an evening use cast telling the same story basically the same way, that kept a lot of diverse voices from having a platform. It was all sort of through that patriarchal lens, honestly, because all the leadership in these newsrooms, because I worked in them, were male and white men. And so while we had a certain understanding and I think a communal agreement of what was a fact and what wasn't, there were some drawbacks to that system. But gosh, you guys, I feel like it's having said all that better than what we have today.

I wanted to talk to you about the media environment just because things have changed so dramatically since when I got into TV news, and now it is so fragmented, so fractured, and so partisan, right, a lot of it. But one of the things you point out in your new book called Democracy or Else, and we're going to talk about the other things in your book in a moment, is that the good old days weren't that good actually, when you had sort of three white males on an evening use cast telling the same story basically the same way, that kept a lot of diverse voices from having a platform. It was all sort of through that patriarchal lens, honestly, because all the leadership in these newsrooms, because I worked in them, were male and white men. And so while we had a certain understanding and I think a communal agreement of what was a fact and what wasn't, there were some drawbacks to that system. But gosh, you guys, I feel like it's having said all that better than what we have today.

Yeah, and there was also the period I think it was before what nineteen eighty seven, when the Fairness Doctrine was in effect, which basically said, if you're going to talk about anti abortion the position, you know, the pro life position, you also had to talk about pro choice. And I think when Reagan got rid of the Fairness Doctrine, it ushered in people like Rush Limbaugh who demonstrate that partisan you know, conservative radio was not only an incredibly powerful political tool, but it was incredibly profitable. And then we saw Fox News and quickly it was kind of the wild Blube West. So I think you're exactly right that, you know, the old days. Sometimes we look back at the old days with sort of this halcyon glare. Yeah, I hear you too fondly. But you know, I think you're right that it was better than the kind of wild wild West that they're seeing at the moment where, you know, for the Biden campaign, you know, they have to deal with basically every single day there's some you know, deceptively edited video of Joe Biden going viral on a platform. But you know, on top of that, it's not just random users on Twitter pushing the stuff around. It's like the New York Post taking a video released by the RNCs research shop, further editing it to make it look even worse and then posting it on their own. So it's it's incredibly it's brutal out there.

Yeah, and there was also the period I think it was before what nineteen eighty seven, when the Fairness Doctrine was in effect, which basically said, if you're going to talk about anti abortion the position, you know, the pro life position, you also had to talk about pro choice. And I think when Reagan got rid of the Fairness Doctrine, it ushered in people like Rush Limbaugh who demonstrate that partisan you know, conservative radio was not only an incredibly powerful political tool, but it was incredibly profitable. And then we saw Fox News and quickly it was kind of the wild Blube West. So I think you're exactly right that, you know, the old days. Sometimes we look back at the old days with sort of this halcyon glare. Yeah, I hear you too fondly. But you know, I think you're right that it was better than the kind of wild wild West that they're seeing at the moment where, you know, for the Biden campaign, you know, they have to deal with basically every single day there's some you know, deceptively edited video of Joe Biden going viral on a platform. But you know, on top of that, it's not just random users on Twitter pushing the stuff around. It's like the New York Post taking a video released by the RNCs research shop, further editing it to make it look even worse and then posting it on their own. So it's it's incredibly it's brutal out there.

I mean it is brutal.

I mean it is brutal.

The promise of like the technological advancements that gave us the Internet and social media and even you know, more television stations, right, it's like more choice was good. More voices, especially a diversity of voices really important, really good. Completely eliminating all gatekeepers and having so many different sources of news that we don't have no more shared sense of reality, or the idea that any single person who has a Twitter account, like their opinion now on something is going to be, you know, just as valid as anyone else's opinion, right, Like we've just that the pendulum has swung too far.

The promise of like the technological advancements that gave us the Internet and social media and even you know, more television stations, right, it's like more choice was good. More voices, especially a diversity of voices really important, really good. Completely eliminating all gatekeepers and having so many different sources of news that we don't have no more shared sense of reality, or the idea that any single person who has a Twitter account, like their opinion now on something is going to be, you know, just as valid as anyone else's opinion, right, Like we've just that the pendulum has swung too far.

And also John, I think this anti expertise. You know, there was a book written about that I think of maybe three or four years ago, that people no longer respect experts, which honestly, I don't understand that why someone would dismiss someone who studied something, understood something, understood the intricacies of the issue every which way, and yet they're not respected. I don't get that.

And also John, I think this anti expertise. You know, there was a book written about that I think of maybe three or four years ago, that people no longer respect experts, which honestly, I don't understand that why someone would dismiss someone who studied something, understood something, understood the intricacies of the issue every which way, and yet they're not respected. I don't get that.

Yeah. Well, the other thing is a lot of people then fancy themselves experts who aren't really experts. And so back to your point about sort of, you know, affirming your own beliefs, right, So you can now always find a quote unquote expert to affirm a belief that you have about something, even if that person is not really an expert in that area, because their Twitter bio says whatever, pretends that there's some they have a doctorate in something, and suddenly they're going on and on about you know, COVID and virology and you're like, well, you've never actually studied that, but you're calling yourself a doctor in Twitter. And so it's hard for people, I think, to figure out who the real experts are and who they can trust. And that's a that's I mean, as we saw during the pandemic, that's a real problem.

Yeah. Well, the other thing is a lot of people then fancy themselves experts who aren't really experts. And so back to your point about sort of, you know, affirming your own beliefs, right, So you can now always find a quote unquote expert to affirm a belief that you have about something, even if that person is not really an expert in that area, because their Twitter bio says whatever, pretends that there's some they have a doctorate in something, and suddenly they're going on and on about you know, COVID and virology and you're like, well, you've never actually studied that, but you're calling yourself a doctor in Twitter. And so it's hard for people, I think, to figure out who the real experts are and who they can trust. And that's a that's I mean, as we saw during the pandemic, that's a real problem.

And it's also it's a problem that seems sort of unique to political discourse or at least news discussions generally. I mean, like people will listen to Robert F. Kennedy's junior or Aaron Rodgers the quarterback for the New York Jets. Talk about vaccines, but imagine if you walked into a room you're about to get surgery, and there's Aaron Rodgers scrubbing in, like, I don't know that I'm going I'm not going through with that, right, I think most people are walking out. So it's a bizarre thing that we just sort of everyone should have a voice, And I think that's wonderful. But you're right that all voices shouldn't be weighted equally, right.

And it's also it's a problem that seems sort of unique to political discourse or at least news discussions generally. I mean, like people will listen to Robert F. Kennedy's junior or Aaron Rodgers the quarterback for the New York Jets. Talk about vaccines, but imagine if you walked into a room you're about to get surgery, and there's Aaron Rodgers scrubbing in, like, I don't know that I'm going I'm not going through with that, right, I think most people are walking out. So it's a bizarre thing that we just sort of everyone should have a voice, And I think that's wonderful. But you're right that all voices shouldn't be weighted equally, right.

I always say the great thing about social media is everyone has a voice. The worst thing about social media is that everyone has for us good? Right? Yeah, after this break democracy or else? The new book from Tommy and the Two Johns, why did they write it? I'll ask them? What if there were a way to reduce cancer deaths by half in the next twenty five years. What if it were the future our children, our loved ones, our world could actually wake up to? This is the future Exact Sciences works toward every day because they believe it's possible. Exact Sciences is a dedicated team of cancer fighters united by a purpose to help eradicate cancer by preventing it, detecting it, earlier and guiding personalized treatment. They bring together the best in visionary thinking and scientific rigor to create tests, including COLI GUARD and Achotype DX that inspire life changing action. Visit Exactsciences dot com to learn more. We're back with Tommy Veeter and Jon Favreau. Let's talk about your book and then I want to ask you about some other current affairs issues right now. But why did you guys write this democh Receive or Else book?

I always say the great thing about social media is everyone has a voice. The worst thing about social media is that everyone has for us good? Right? Yeah, after this break democracy or else? The new book from Tommy and the Two Johns, why did they write it? I'll ask them? What if there were a way to reduce cancer deaths by half in the next twenty five years. What if it were the future our children, our loved ones, our world could actually wake up to? This is the future Exact Sciences works toward every day because they believe it's possible. Exact Sciences is a dedicated team of cancer fighters united by a purpose to help eradicate cancer by preventing it, detecting it, earlier and guiding personalized treatment. They bring together the best in visionary thinking and scientific rigor to create tests, including COLI GUARD and Achotype DX that inspire life changing action. Visit Exactsciences dot com to learn more. We're back with Tommy Veeter and Jon Favreau. Let's talk about your book and then I want to ask you about some other current affairs issues right now. But why did you guys write this democh Receive or Else book?

Yeah, I mean for anyone who's worried about the country, wants to get involved in this election and hopefully future elections, but doesn't know where to begin or how to be most useful. We wrote this to basically say it's easier than you think, and it doesn't have to be terrifying. It can actually be a lot of fun. And really it's the same thing that let us to start pod Save America way back when in twenty seventeen in Crooket Media is after Donald Trump won. You know, we had so many people saying to us, like, what do we do? This is bad, I don't know how to get involved, or I haven't really paid attention to politics before this, and I want to help, but I don't know how. And you know, over the years of doing this podcast and hosting pot Save America and then sort of starting Vote Save America, which is sort of our organizing arm where we help people get involved in politics and just building crooked media, you know, we've learned a lot about what it takes to get involved in politics, how useful it is to be involved in politics, not just from our own experiences before this, as you know, white House staffers and campaign staffers, but just from talking to so many smart people through pods of America. So this book was our attempt to like put all of those lessons on paper, both from us and from a lot of the really smart people we've talked to over the years.

Yeah, I mean for anyone who's worried about the country, wants to get involved in this election and hopefully future elections, but doesn't know where to begin or how to be most useful. We wrote this to basically say it's easier than you think, and it doesn't have to be terrifying. It can actually be a lot of fun. And really it's the same thing that let us to start pod Save America way back when in twenty seventeen in Crooket Media is after Donald Trump won. You know, we had so many people saying to us, like, what do we do? This is bad, I don't know how to get involved, or I haven't really paid attention to politics before this, and I want to help, but I don't know how. And you know, over the years of doing this podcast and hosting pot Save America and then sort of starting Vote Save America, which is sort of our organizing arm where we help people get involved in politics and just building crooked media, you know, we've learned a lot about what it takes to get involved in politics, how useful it is to be involved in politics, not just from our own experiences before this, as you know, white House staffers and campaign staffers, but just from talking to so many smart people through pods of America. So this book was our attempt to like put all of those lessons on paper, both from us and from a lot of the really smart people we've talked to over the years.

And also one of the benefits of getting a little older is we realize now how lucky we were to get to work for Barack Obama on that campaign in that moment, because politics then it felt hopeful, it's felt inspiring, it felt historic, right we were working for the first black man to become president in this country. In the last eight years has been such a slug. It's so terrible every day and scary, and people are anxious, and we wanted to remind folks that you know what, Like, first of all, politics doesn't not have to be zero sum. You can do a little bit or you can do a lot.

And also one of the benefits of getting a little older is we realize now how lucky we were to get to work for Barack Obama on that campaign in that moment, because politics then it felt hopeful, it's felt inspiring, it felt historic, right we were working for the first black man to become president in this country. In the last eight years has been such a slug. It's so terrible every day and scary, and people are anxious, and we wanted to remind folks that you know what, Like, first of all, politics doesn't not have to be zero sum. You can do a little bit or you can do a lot.

It's up to you.

It's up to you.

But it all matters. But also it can be fun, it can be hopeful. The book is very funny. There's incredibly stupid illustrations.

But it all matters. But also it can be fun, it can be hopeful. The book is very funny. There's incredibly stupid illustrations.

And yeah, they're funny illustration, right, And I think you're right, it's kind of It is a funny book, but about a very serious topic. And I just I just wonder you guys, are you preaching to the choir? With all due respect, I mean, I love Pots of America, I love crooked media. I think what you all have built is just extraordinary. And yet who is your audience for this book?

And yeah, they're funny illustration, right, And I think you're right, it's kind of It is a funny book, but about a very serious topic. And I just I just wonder you guys, are you preaching to the choir? With all due respect, I mean, I love Pots of America, I love crooked media. I think what you all have built is just extraordinary. And yet who is your audience for this book?

Yeah, I mean, look, we are preaching to our choir, but what we're preaching to them is like the only way to really get out of this mess, the only way to have democracy function is to actually go out there and persuade people and how and go change minds. Because we know a lot of people who are going to buy this book are already liberals or Democrats, or at least just people who don't want Donald Trump to be president. But I do think people are always looking for shortcuts. And you know, I think in the first chapter we talk about sort of like how tough our democratic system is to change, and in many ways it was built that way, and so you know, we'll have people say to us, can't we just get rid of the Senate because the Senate's not fair? Or can't we just get rid of the electoral college and we want it to you know, in that chapter, show people how difficult it is to change the system and where it's easier to make progress and where it's more difficult to make progress. But what it all comes down to is there is no changing the system unless we win elections. And there is no winning elections unless we all go out there and have conversations with people who do not agree with us, who aren't sure if they're going to vote or who they're going to vote for, and we have to change their minds. And changing their minds is not you know what you see happening on social media every day. It's not. Politics is not about just congratulating ourselves about how right we are. Politics is about like meeting other people where they are and sort of trying to bring them along by changing their minds. They're at least doing our best to change their minds.

Yeah, I mean, look, we are preaching to our choir, but what we're preaching to them is like the only way to really get out of this mess, the only way to have democracy function is to actually go out there and persuade people and how and go change minds. Because we know a lot of people who are going to buy this book are already liberals or Democrats, or at least just people who don't want Donald Trump to be president. But I do think people are always looking for shortcuts. And you know, I think in the first chapter we talk about sort of like how tough our democratic system is to change, and in many ways it was built that way, and so you know, we'll have people say to us, can't we just get rid of the Senate because the Senate's not fair? Or can't we just get rid of the electoral college and we want it to you know, in that chapter, show people how difficult it is to change the system and where it's easier to make progress and where it's more difficult to make progress. But what it all comes down to is there is no changing the system unless we win elections. And there is no winning elections unless we all go out there and have conversations with people who do not agree with us, who aren't sure if they're going to vote or who they're going to vote for, and we have to change their minds. And changing their minds is not you know what you see happening on social media every day. It's not. Politics is not about just congratulating ourselves about how right we are. Politics is about like meeting other people where they are and sort of trying to bring them along by changing their minds. They're at least doing our best to change their minds.

It's hard. I mean, I want to talk about the persuadables because I think there is this wide swath of the American electorate who aren't on the extremes. I'm sure you read Jonathan Height's article on The Atlantic about why the last ten years have been uniquely stupid, And it's really about the loudest voices that are dominating social media that I think give people a complete misrepresentation of the way people are feeling about a whole variety of issues. But I was with somebody I did a breast cancer walk and a very nice woman was walking and she said, you know, I think we probably disagree politically, but I really appreciate your cancer advocacy work. And I said, thank you so much. And I'm curious, you know why you feel strongly about supporting you know who you're supporting. I try to kind of keep it friendly and nice, And I said, because you know, it's it really upsets me that people insist the election was rigged. And sixty two you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. Sixty two courts have dismissed cases that have alleged that and if there was real evidence beyond sort of the typical, you know, screw ups that happened that don't necessarily affect the outcome. Don't you think our judicial system would have dealt with that? And she said, I saw videos of women stuffing ballot boxes, and I said, I don't think those were necessarily accurate. Well, I don't really trust the judicial system, and you know, so where do you go from there? It's very hard, But I think that individual was in a group that would not be considered part of the persuadables, right.

It's hard. I mean, I want to talk about the persuadables because I think there is this wide swath of the American electorate who aren't on the extremes. I'm sure you read Jonathan Height's article on The Atlantic about why the last ten years have been uniquely stupid, And it's really about the loudest voices that are dominating social media that I think give people a complete misrepresentation of the way people are feeling about a whole variety of issues. But I was with somebody I did a breast cancer walk and a very nice woman was walking and she said, you know, I think we probably disagree politically, but I really appreciate your cancer advocacy work. And I said, thank you so much. And I'm curious, you know why you feel strongly about supporting you know who you're supporting. I try to kind of keep it friendly and nice, And I said, because you know, it's it really upsets me that people insist the election was rigged. And sixty two you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. Sixty two courts have dismissed cases that have alleged that and if there was real evidence beyond sort of the typical, you know, screw ups that happened that don't necessarily affect the outcome. Don't you think our judicial system would have dealt with that? And she said, I saw videos of women stuffing ballot boxes, and I said, I don't think those were necessarily accurate. Well, I don't really trust the judicial system, and you know, so where do you go from there? It's very hard, But I think that individual was in a group that would not be considered part of the persuadables, right.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we're the Democratic side of this debate has a harder job because we believe in institutions, while Republicans are able to so distrust in those institutions and it helps their argument that, for example, the twenty twenty election was stolen. So there's a really long, difficult challenge ahead of all of us of restoring people's faith in politics, for storing people's faith in institutions, and part of that is going to be delivering on the big challenges that people are pissed about. And so, you know, the Affordable Care Act did an enormous amount of good. Forty million people have healthcare because of it, but costs are still way too high, you know, and it didn't help everybody. So it's just it's a long game. But you know, the other thing I think we've learned over many years in politics, Katie, is that voters are really weird. When you talk to voters, they do not line up on traditional lines that you hear about in the press. I watched there was a vote, remember the uncommitted vote in Michigan, where in their Democratic primary you had a bunch of people voting uncommitted instead of for Joe Biden to protest as God's vote. I watched a focus group of I think eight or ten Democrats who voted uncommitted, and one of the people in this focus group said she voted on admitted because Joe Biden hadn't done enough to help Israel. And I thought to myself, huh, you did not get the assignment this is. But you know, voters, they're weird. The quirky opinions and different things drive them. And you can be poisoned by bad information, but you know, have good intentions.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we're the Democratic side of this debate has a harder job because we believe in institutions, while Republicans are able to so distrust in those institutions and it helps their argument that, for example, the twenty twenty election was stolen. So there's a really long, difficult challenge ahead of all of us of restoring people's faith in politics, for storing people's faith in institutions, and part of that is going to be delivering on the big challenges that people are pissed about. And so, you know, the Affordable Care Act did an enormous amount of good. Forty million people have healthcare because of it, but costs are still way too high, you know, and it didn't help everybody. So it's just it's a long game. But you know, the other thing I think we've learned over many years in politics, Katie, is that voters are really weird. When you talk to voters, they do not line up on traditional lines that you hear about in the press. I watched there was a vote, remember the uncommitted vote in Michigan, where in their Democratic primary you had a bunch of people voting uncommitted instead of for Joe Biden to protest as God's vote. I watched a focus group of I think eight or ten Democrats who voted uncommitted, and one of the people in this focus group said she voted on admitted because Joe Biden hadn't done enough to help Israel. And I thought to myself, huh, you did not get the assignment this is. But you know, voters, they're weird. The quirky opinions and different things drive them. And you can be poisoned by bad information, but you know, have good intentions.

Well, And to that point, I think if you're sitting down with someone and you were trying to convince them. You don't start by bringing up the twenty twenty election and trying to argue them out of their belief that it was stolen. F I don't know necessarily that that would get you that far, but you could say, Okay, what do you care about? What are you worried about right now? What issues are top of mind for you? And you know, we I think we have a story in the book about this organizer in Pennsylvania. Her name was Angela Aldus and she was in Westmoreland County in Pennsylvania. It's very conservative and she's very liberal. And this was in twenty eighteen and she started knocking on doors and it was a lot of Trump voters and one of the one woman opened the door and she was a Trump voter too, And it's stead of trying to like yell at her about politics, she was like, well, what are you worried about? You know, what do you what do you care about? And she's like, well, I'm really upset about the high cost of my prescriptions. And Angela was like, well, you know, I have I have MS and like I've had that worry too, And they both start talking about the drug companies and prescriptions stuff like that, and they started coming to this understanding about how, like politicians need to do a better job of making sure that healthcare is cheaper and more people have access to it. And the Trump supporter might not have known necessarily that that was a more liberal democratic position, but they had this good conversation about it, and that moved her closer to the direction that Angela wanted to go in, and like did she.

Well, And to that point, I think if you're sitting down with someone and you were trying to convince them. You don't start by bringing up the twenty twenty election and trying to argue them out of their belief that it was stolen. F I don't know necessarily that that would get you that far, but you could say, Okay, what do you care about? What are you worried about right now? What issues are top of mind for you? And you know, we I think we have a story in the book about this organizer in Pennsylvania. Her name was Angela Aldus and she was in Westmoreland County in Pennsylvania. It's very conservative and she's very liberal. And this was in twenty eighteen and she started knocking on doors and it was a lot of Trump voters and one of the one woman opened the door and she was a Trump voter too, And it's stead of trying to like yell at her about politics, she was like, well, what are you worried about? You know, what do you what do you care about? And she's like, well, I'm really upset about the high cost of my prescriptions. And Angela was like, well, you know, I have I have MS and like I've had that worry too, And they both start talking about the drug companies and prescriptions stuff like that, and they started coming to this understanding about how, like politicians need to do a better job of making sure that healthcare is cheaper and more people have access to it. And the Trump supporter might not have known necessarily that that was a more liberal democratic position, but they had this good conversation about it, and that moved her closer to the direction that Angela wanted to go in, and like did she.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, that was a really stupid way for me to broach the topic. But we were also on a three point two mile walk and I didn't have that much shop.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, that was a really stupid way for me to broach the topic. But we were also on a three point two mile walk and I didn't have that much shop.

Well, look, when someone brings it up to you, it's not like you can be like, eh, like you're gonna You're gonna end up talking about it, you know, But.

Well, look, when someone brings it up to you, it's not like you can be like, eh, like you're gonna You're gonna end up talking about it, you know, But.

I think you're right. Tell me what you're worried about, tell me what issue you care about, and how you're feeling about your situation. I think you're right. That's a much better way. And you know, one of the things you all point out in your book is that we're not as polarized as we think we are. You have some statistics in the book, and I think they bear repeating. In nineteen ninety six, twenty seven percent of people supported gay marriage. In twenty twenty three, seventy one percent fifty nine percent of post the overturning of Roe Vweight eighty A pose a federal abortion ban. A Fox News poll found that eighty percent of people favor background checks on gun purchases, making twenty one the minimum age to purchase a gun. Yes, And I remember I did a documentary on gun violence and reducing gun violence, and I think was seventy four percent of NRA members favor stricter gun laws. So why is it so hard to address these issues and to bring people who are in the middle the you know, center left or center right, and form a coalition of these people.

I think you're right. Tell me what you're worried about, tell me what issue you care about, and how you're feeling about your situation. I think you're right. That's a much better way. And you know, one of the things you all point out in your book is that we're not as polarized as we think we are. You have some statistics in the book, and I think they bear repeating. In nineteen ninety six, twenty seven percent of people supported gay marriage. In twenty twenty three, seventy one percent fifty nine percent of post the overturning of Roe Vweight eighty A pose a federal abortion ban. A Fox News poll found that eighty percent of people favor background checks on gun purchases, making twenty one the minimum age to purchase a gun. Yes, And I remember I did a documentary on gun violence and reducing gun violence, and I think was seventy four percent of NRA members favor stricter gun laws. So why is it so hard to address these issues and to bring people who are in the middle the you know, center left or center right, and form a coalition of these people.

I mean, I think at the moment, the challenge on gun rights, for example, or gun control is you know of the numbers you just read which shows overwhelming majorities in this country want more sensible gun control policies in place, and then we have a Supreme Court that just voted against a very limited effort by Donald Trump to ban a tool that turns semi automatic rifles into machine guns, bump stocks, you know what I mean? And so the disconnect between what people want and what our judges or elected officials are willing to let happen is just yawning. And so what that does is it makes people on the left whur fighting for sensible gun laws. They feel demoralized and depressed and they stop trying. And you have you know, people on the right or are you insulated from the Republicans are insulated from these policies. So, I mean this is part of the broader challenge that Democrats face, which is we are not delivering on the things people care about in large part in this case because of the Republicans, and Republicans are able to harness that cynicism to keep voters at home.

I mean, I think at the moment, the challenge on gun rights, for example, or gun control is you know of the numbers you just read which shows overwhelming majorities in this country want more sensible gun control policies in place, and then we have a Supreme Court that just voted against a very limited effort by Donald Trump to ban a tool that turns semi automatic rifles into machine guns, bump stocks, you know what I mean? And so the disconnect between what people want and what our judges or elected officials are willing to let happen is just yawning. And so what that does is it makes people on the left whur fighting for sensible gun laws. They feel demoralized and depressed and they stop trying. And you have you know, people on the right or are you insulated from the Republicans are insulated from these policies. So, I mean this is part of the broader challenge that Democrats face, which is we are not delivering on the things people care about in large part in this case because of the Republicans, and Republicans are able to harness that cynicism to keep voters at home.

Yeah, I mean, I remember in the Obama administration when we tried to pass background checks and the two senators that ended up coming up with a compromise on background checks were Joe Manchin but no One's idea of a liberal and Pat Toomey, conservative senator from Pennsylvania. And they come up with this compromise on background checks, and the Republicans in Congress still voted down, they still blocked it. And I remember Obama at the time thinking like if we can't we can't pass this. After the tragedies and the mass shootings that we have seen, and that was back then, and we can't pass a common sense, extremely popular proposal that is and put forth by a conservative Republican senator and a very conservative Democrat from West Virginia. Like, I don't know how we're going to get this done. But a lot of voters aren't paying attention to everything that happens in Washington and all the machinations. So for people who really want something done on guns, what do they think? They think? Oh, Washington failed again and both parties couldn't figure it out, even though it was a bipersonal compromise, right, both parties couldn't figure it out, and Obama couldn't get it done. And so it's I'm not going to vote on that issue because no one's going to get it done.

Yeah, I mean, I remember in the Obama administration when we tried to pass background checks and the two senators that ended up coming up with a compromise on background checks were Joe Manchin but no One's idea of a liberal and Pat Toomey, conservative senator from Pennsylvania. And they come up with this compromise on background checks, and the Republicans in Congress still voted down, they still blocked it. And I remember Obama at the time thinking like if we can't we can't pass this. After the tragedies and the mass shootings that we have seen, and that was back then, and we can't pass a common sense, extremely popular proposal that is and put forth by a conservative Republican senator and a very conservative Democrat from West Virginia. Like, I don't know how we're going to get this done. But a lot of voters aren't paying attention to everything that happens in Washington and all the machinations. So for people who really want something done on guns, what do they think? They think? Oh, Washington failed again and both parties couldn't figure it out, even though it was a bipersonal compromise, right, both parties couldn't figure it out, and Obama couldn't get it done. And so it's I'm not going to vote on that issue because no one's going to get it done.

You voters and polls today who blame Joe Biden for Rovers's Wade being overturned, right, right? Yeah, A lot of folks just aren't aren't paying attention. They don't really know what's happening. They just know they're pissed at the outcome.

You voters and polls today who blame Joe Biden for Rovers's Wade being overturned, right, right? Yeah, A lot of folks just aren't aren't paying attention. They don't really know what's happening. They just know they're pissed at the outcome.

Gosh, I mean, there's a couple of things that come to mind with that I mean, why are people so ignorant about some of this stuff? Is it because we no longer teach civics? Is it because the information they're getting is so twisted and manipulated and full of falsehoods that people don't know which way is up and what is real?

Gosh, I mean, there's a couple of things that come to mind with that I mean, why are people so ignorant about some of this stuff? Is it because we no longer teach civics? Is it because the information they're getting is so twisted and manipulated and full of falsehoods that people don't know which way is up and what is real?

I mean, I think it's a couple things, and I think it's sort of a vicious cycle that it reinforces itself, which is people are busy. They it's not everyone's job to pay close attention to politics. People are not political junkies like we are, and they're working very hard at their jobs to raise their families, and so they don't have a lot of time to pay attention. And then when they do pay attention, when they do tune into politics, what do they see on television? Well, they see people yelling at each other, they see talking heads going back before, they see like a bunch of polling, They see misinformation on social media. They don't know who to believe, and so they're like, I don't know, I'm out, like I don't need to pay attention to this. I don't know what to believe anymore. It all seems like noise to me. So I'm just gonna live my life and that's that. So I do think that's why people I don't think it's necessary that people like are willfully ignorant, and I think people, you know, that's that's one of the challenges, right, You can voters. You hear a lot of people in politics how voters are stupid or they should know that Trump is bad, or like, you know what people are. It's it's not it's everyone's job to fulfill the obligations of citizenship, but it's not everyone's job to like sort through just the reams of information out there and news sources and figure out what's true and what's not.

I mean, I think it's a couple things, and I think it's sort of a vicious cycle that it reinforces itself, which is people are busy. They it's not everyone's job to pay close attention to politics. People are not political junkies like we are, and they're working very hard at their jobs to raise their families, and so they don't have a lot of time to pay attention. And then when they do pay attention, when they do tune into politics, what do they see on television? Well, they see people yelling at each other, they see talking heads going back before, they see like a bunch of polling, They see misinformation on social media. They don't know who to believe, and so they're like, I don't know, I'm out, like I don't need to pay attention to this. I don't know what to believe anymore. It all seems like noise to me. So I'm just gonna live my life and that's that. So I do think that's why people I don't think it's necessary that people like are willfully ignorant, and I think people, you know, that's that's one of the challenges, right, You can voters. You hear a lot of people in politics how voters are stupid or they should know that Trump is bad, or like, you know what people are. It's it's not it's everyone's job to fulfill the obligations of citizenship, but it's not everyone's job to like sort through just the reams of information out there and news sources and figure out what's true and what's not.

So how do you fix it?

So how do you fix it?

Yeah? I mean, look, I think that one thing you're going to see in this election is and when you talk to organizers and campaign staffers like it. There's a there's a big emphasis now on something called relational organizing, where you are not just calling strangers and knocking on strangers doors, but you're really reaching out to all the people in your social network and trying to persuade them, or people in your neighborhood. People you get to know and then you have these conversations and this is not deep canvassing where the conversations we were just talking about, where you don't just show up at someone's door with a script given to you by a campaign. You kind of have like a fifteen to twenty minute conversation about what do you care about, what issues are on your mind. And because voters don't have as much trust in institutions, whether they be campaigns, the media, government, they do have trust in the people that they know, and so those people that the people that they know end up being the most trusted and persuasive messengers or people that you can have a conversation with that you can see face to face. So I do think one side effect of the media environment becoming so fractured and polarized is that people are going back to these face to face conversations with people in their local community. And I do think that's where, like, if we're going to fix politics, it has to start there.

Yeah? I mean, look, I think that one thing you're going to see in this election is and when you talk to organizers and campaign staffers like it. There's a there's a big emphasis now on something called relational organizing, where you are not just calling strangers and knocking on strangers doors, but you're really reaching out to all the people in your social network and trying to persuade them, or people in your neighborhood. People you get to know and then you have these conversations and this is not deep canvassing where the conversations we were just talking about, where you don't just show up at someone's door with a script given to you by a campaign. You kind of have like a fifteen to twenty minute conversation about what do you care about, what issues are on your mind. And because voters don't have as much trust in institutions, whether they be campaigns, the media, government, they do have trust in the people that they know, and so those people that the people that they know end up being the most trusted and persuasive messengers or people that you can have a conversation with that you can see face to face. So I do think one side effect of the media environment becoming so fractured and polarized is that people are going back to these face to face conversations with people in their local community. And I do think that's where, like, if we're going to fix politics, it has to start there.

Up next, how will President Biden fair in the upcoming debate with Donald Trump? Have some thoughts. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Back to my conversation with Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeter.

Up next, how will President Biden fair in the upcoming debate with Donald Trump? Have some thoughts. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Back to my conversation with Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeter.

I mean, I think John's right on like the big picture need I mean, just to slice it a little narrower, like you know, you asked about sort of why you know people are not well informed or why they're turned off by politics, and you know, it's often the case that people tune in to a campaign at big moments, like a debate, and let's just be honest, like those big moments have gotten terrible. I was reading a report today by a group of researchers at Princeton that analyzed all the debates from two thousand and four until today. God bless those Bomore Passwards who had to watch all these They found the cross talk of debates just candid's yelling over each other. It jumped from one instance in the first Bush versus Carry debate in two thousand and four to seventy six instances in the first Biden versus Trump debate in twenty twenty. If you don't care about politics and you're turning on that debate brying like, oh who am I going to vote for? And that disaster is what you see. You're turning the channel, You're going to ESPN, and you're like, I'm not voting.

I mean, I think John's right on like the big picture need I mean, just to slice it a little narrower, like you know, you asked about sort of why you know people are not well informed or why they're turned off by politics, and you know, it's often the case that people tune in to a campaign at big moments, like a debate, and let's just be honest, like those big moments have gotten terrible. I was reading a report today by a group of researchers at Princeton that analyzed all the debates from two thousand and four until today. God bless those Bomore Passwards who had to watch all these They found the cross talk of debates just candid's yelling over each other. It jumped from one instance in the first Bush versus Carry debate in two thousand and four to seventy six instances in the first Biden versus Trump debate in twenty twenty. If you don't care about politics and you're turning on that debate brying like, oh who am I going to vote for? And that disaster is what you see. You're turning the channel, You're going to ESPN, and you're like, I'm not voting.

It's so true. It's such a shit show. Which brings me to the upcoming debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Are you terrified? Are you anxious about that? I know they are going to turn off the mics, They're going to set in to motion certain things that will hopefully keep it more civil. But what do you guys think?

It's so true. It's such a shit show. Which brings me to the upcoming debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Are you terrified? Are you anxious about that? I know they are going to turn off the mics, They're going to set in to motion certain things that will hopefully keep it more civil. But what do you guys think?

Are completely terrified?

Are completely terrified?

Completely terrified? Yeah, and listen, we went to you.

Completely terrified? Yeah, and listen, we went to you.

I don't know how you can. I don't know how you wouldn't be It's a big deal.

I don't know how you can. I don't know how you wouldn't be It's a big deal.

What does that say about the Democratic presidential candidate? If you're so terrified?

What does that say about the Democratic presidential candidate? If you're so terrified?

I mean, listen, we just saw president and had an event out here in Los Angeles, and he had just made two trips to Europe in the last like, you know, in less than a week, and candidly, he looked exhausted, and it was a little bit dispiriting to walk out of there and be like, oh boy, you know, like there's not a lot of pep in his step. He wasn't sort of there wasn't a clear message coming out of that event, and I was a fundraiser, like it's fine. You know, the people weren't there to be persuaded. They were there because they gave money. But he needs to be on his game, and he needs a moment's debate like he had at the State of the Union where he came out feisty and was going back and forth with Republicans and making a point. And so he needs to be sharpen on his game in that sense. And then from a messaging perspective, Joe Biden needs to be painting a picture of what he would do with four more years and explaining to people that he understands that he got a lot done, but there's still he understands that they're so frustrated, and he hears them, and this is how he's going to work on it. And this is why Donald Trump would not actually help the things that they're worried about, because this is a man who only cares about himself, his rich friends, his donors, and keeping his ass at a prison.

I mean, listen, we just saw president and had an event out here in Los Angeles, and he had just made two trips to Europe in the last like, you know, in less than a week, and candidly, he looked exhausted, and it was a little bit dispiriting to walk out of there and be like, oh boy, you know, like there's not a lot of pep in his step. He wasn't sort of there wasn't a clear message coming out of that event, and I was a fundraiser, like it's fine. You know, the people weren't there to be persuaded. They were there because they gave money. But he needs to be on his game, and he needs a moment's debate like he had at the State of the Union where he came out feisty and was going back and forth with Republicans and making a point. And so he needs to be sharpen on his game in that sense. And then from a messaging perspective, Joe Biden needs to be painting a picture of what he would do with four more years and explaining to people that he understands that he got a lot done, but there's still he understands that they're so frustrated, and he hears them, and this is how he's going to work on it. And this is why Donald Trump would not actually help the things that they're worried about, because this is a man who only cares about himself, his rich friends, his donors, and keeping his ass at a prison.

John.

John.

I think Joe Biden is a good, decent human being. I think he's been a great president. I don't think he's ever been an excellent communicator, and I think that as he's aged. Like, I think his mental acuity is sharp, you know, and I've known that from like just personal experiences with them and following him, but I think it has I think the one thing that age has done is it sort of softened his voice. Right, He's shuffling a little more because of his he's got some back issues. And yeah, like you can sit there and argue with the media about showing this clip or that clip, and but like this is how he's going to come off to people. And like Tommy said, there are these moments where he has appeared very energetic and feisty and he needs to needs to show that at the debate. But also, like I think the more important thing for all of us is, like Joe Biden has made the decision that Joe Biden is running again. Right, that was Joe Biden's decision, And you know that's where we are and for the rest.

I think Joe Biden is a good, decent human being. I think he's been a great president. I don't think he's ever been an excellent communicator, and I think that as he's aged. Like, I think his mental acuity is sharp, you know, and I've known that from like just personal experiences with them and following him, but I think it has I think the one thing that age has done is it sort of softened his voice. Right, He's shuffling a little more because of his he's got some back issues. And yeah, like you can sit there and argue with the media about showing this clip or that clip, and but like this is how he's going to come off to people. And like Tommy said, there are these moments where he has appeared very energetic and feisty and he needs to needs to show that at the debate. But also, like I think the more important thing for all of us is, like Joe Biden has made the decision that Joe Biden is running again. Right, that was Joe Biden's decision, And you know that's where we are and for the rest.

But I can I interrupt your ask where you disappointed that he wanted to run again and that he at eighty one when he said during the campaign in twenty twenty he was going to be the bridge to a new generation of leadership with Corey Booker, Kamala Harrison Gretchen Whitmer at his side that the bridge was eight years instead of four.

But I can I interrupt your ask where you disappointed that he wanted to run again and that he at eighty one when he said during the campaign in twenty twenty he was going to be the bridge to a new generation of leadership with Corey Booker, Kamala Harrison Gretchen Whitmer at his side that the bridge was eight years instead of four.

Yeah, it turned out to be a longer bridge.

Yeah, it turned out to be a longer bridge.

Turned out to be the Bay bridget.

Turned out to be the Bay bridget.

I have really I've tried to put myself in Joe biden shoes making that decision, And I do think that he looked around at the rest of the field, He looked around at the other possible candidates and said to himself, like, I think I am better positioned to beat Donald Trump because I did once before than any of these other politicians who have not been tested nationally and have not been under the tough spotlight of a national campaign. And if I step aside and say, okay, let's have an open primary now, and one of these people wins the primary and then loses to Donald Trump, and I think that I could have done a better job, Like I think it's a it was a tough call, Like it would have been a tough call for me.

I have really I've tried to put myself in Joe biden shoes making that decision, And I do think that he looked around at the rest of the field, He looked around at the other possible candidates and said to himself, like, I think I am better positioned to beat Donald Trump because I did once before than any of these other politicians who have not been tested nationally and have not been under the tough spotlight of a national campaign. And if I step aside and say, okay, let's have an open primary now, and one of these people wins the primary and then loses to Donald Trump, and I think that I could have done a better job, Like I think it's a it was a tough call, Like it would have been a tough call for me.

Conversely, though, what if he loses to Donald Trump and there goes his legacy?

Conversely, though, what if he loses to Donald Trump and there goes his legacy?

Yep, you know, and I think he is I'm sure he has weighed that as well, you know. And it's it's just where I've ended up is that's all his decision, and the rest of us need to figure out how to tell voters that, yes, he appears older, and maybe he's not the best communicator, but he's been a damn good president. He has fought really hard for regular Americans and not just the wealthy or people who are extremely loyal to him like Donald Trump, and Donald Trump is a is a threat to the country, is a threat to democracy for about just democrats, threat to our ability to make decisions about who governs us. And so, whatever your qualms about Joe Biden, whatever your disappointments, whatever you know, we cannot go down the road of another Trump presidency because it will be much more extreme and worse than the first.