Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is next Question. Welcome to this episode, every one of Katie plus one. I have a special guest today who is going to join me in interviewing Adam Kinsinger, and it is none other than Ms. Mary Trump.

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is next Question. Welcome to this episode, every one of Katie plus one. I have a special guest today who is going to join me in interviewing Adam Kinsinger, and it is none other than Ms. Mary Trump.

Hi Mary, Hey Katie, how are you.

Hi Mary, Hey Katie, how are you.

I'm good. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you because you and Adam have a lot in common in some ways, don't you.

I'm good. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you because you and Adam have a lot in common in some ways, don't you.

It's very surprising because as people can probably imagine, politically, we probably have very little in common. But we've both been through some experiences that have given us a chance to see what it's like on the outside. And I'm really looking forward to hearing what he has to say about the main event, which is actually when you and I. I think it might have been the first or second time you and I.

It's very surprising because as people can probably imagine, politically, we probably have very little in common. But we've both been through some experiences that have given us a chance to see what it's like on the outside. And I'm really looking forward to hearing what he has to say about the main event, which is actually when you and I. I think it might have been the first or second time you and I.

Spoke after January sixth.

Spoke after January sixth.

January sixth, twenty twenty one, but also family history, his experiences with his family disinheriting him essentially because of his political stance, and he has emerged as a fascinating figure in American politics and as somebody who has had the courage of his convictions. And I also am really appreciative of his decision to stay in the fight, which is also something hopefully we'll get into definitely.

January sixth, twenty twenty one, but also family history, his experiences with his family disinheriting him essentially because of his political stance, and he has emerged as a fascinating figure in American politics and as somebody who has had the courage of his convictions. And I also am really appreciative of his decision to stay in the fight, which is also something hopefully we'll get into definitely.

Well, let's welcome Adam Kinzinger to the podcast.

Well, let's welcome Adam Kinzinger to the podcast.

You ready, all set? I'm very excited about this.

You ready, all set? I'm very excited about this.

Adam Kinzinger, Welcome to the podcast, and I'd like to introduce you to Mary Trump. Mary meet Adam, Adam meet Mary.

Adam Kinzinger, Welcome to the podcast, and I'd like to introduce you to Mary Trump. Mary meet Adam, Adam meet Mary.

Hey, it's good to meet you.

Hey, it's good to meet you.

It is a pleasure. How are you?

It is a pleasure. How are you?

The pleasures all mine?

The pleasures all mine?

I'm great, Thanks and congratulations on the excellent book.

I'm great, Thanks and congratulations on the excellent book.

Thank you. I appreciate it. It was fun to write it, and I'll probably never write a book again in my life.

Thank you. I appreciate it. It was fun to write it, and I'll probably never write a book again in my life.

So I's going to say it was fun.

So I's going to say it was fun.

Okay, it was okay, and it's fun to have it written.

Okay, it was okay, and it's fun to have it written.

That is the best part having it done.

That is the best part having it done.

Adam, your new book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty in our divided country. I can't think of a book that is needed more than this right now, given the state of affairs. But let me start by asking you a pretty boring question, why why did you want to write this book?

Adam, your new book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty in our divided country. I can't think of a book that is needed more than this right now, given the state of affairs. But let me start by asking you a pretty boring question, why why did you want to write this book?

You know, it's funny because somebody I don't even remember who it was, told me, h, what is it? They said, like writing a book is an inherently kind of like arrogant feeling experience because I'm like and I struggle with that, like who would want to read? Why would I put any of my details? But the reason I ended up doing it is I realized that my story tells the broader story. It tells the story of what's happened to the Republican Party. You know, I talk about the things I got wrong and the things I should have seen, but I think it's important to be able to like, yes, Okay, here's my story, but here's throughout the whole thing, like what happened in some of these like really important points, because I think the only way to come back from this moment we're in, this division is to recognize the problem and recognize frankly, how we got here so we can push back against it.

You know, it's funny because somebody I don't even remember who it was, told me, h, what is it? They said, like writing a book is an inherently kind of like arrogant feeling experience because I'm like and I struggle with that, like who would want to read? Why would I put any of my details? But the reason I ended up doing it is I realized that my story tells the broader story. It tells the story of what's happened to the Republican Party. You know, I talk about the things I got wrong and the things I should have seen, but I think it's important to be able to like, yes, Okay, here's my story, but here's throughout the whole thing, like what happened in some of these like really important points, because I think the only way to come back from this moment we're in, this division is to recognize the problem and recognize frankly, how we got here so we can push back against it.

You know, we thought that you and Mary would be really interesting conversationalists because, as we said earlier when I was introducing Mary to our listeners, you all actually have a lot in common.

You know, we thought that you and Mary would be really interesting conversationalists because, as we said earlier when I was introducing Mary to our listeners, you all actually have a lot in common.

Well, first of all, I know the experience about the letter you received from your family. Yes, and obviously the circumstances were different, but I know what that feels like. But also I just wanted to mention that my dad was a pilot, and I didn't realize until I read your book that you also were a pilot.

Well, first of all, I know the experience about the letter you received from your family. Yes, and obviously the circumstances were different, but I know what that feels like. But also I just wanted to mention that my dad was a pilot, and I didn't realize until I read your book that you also were a pilot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, my dad was in the National Guard and he taught himself to fly when he was in college. Well actually so his first plane was a Piper Cub and then we had a Cherokee for a little bit. But anyway, I thought, and he was of course a professional pilot for twa in nineteen sixty four, so I thought that was really cool. You used to fly your your single edgend plane back and forth to work, which is amazing. Everybody should be able to do that. And of course your experience on January sixth, which I think goes right to the heart of what a lot of us experienced that several removes certainly, so, I honestly would not have imagined that you and I would have that much in common. And also I wanted to at the very beginning, I'll thank you for your work in electing pro democracy candidates. I have a pack that has exactly the same mission. So it's it's fascinating and I've admired your stance for a long time now, so it's always nice when there's a little more context, you know.

So yeah, my dad was in the National Guard and he taught himself to fly when he was in college. Well actually so his first plane was a Piper Cub and then we had a Cherokee for a little bit. But anyway, I thought, and he was of course a professional pilot for twa in nineteen sixty four, so I thought that was really cool. You used to fly your your single edgend plane back and forth to work, which is amazing. Everybody should be able to do that. And of course your experience on January sixth, which I think goes right to the heart of what a lot of us experienced that several removes certainly, so, I honestly would not have imagined that you and I would have that much in common. And also I wanted to at the very beginning, I'll thank you for your work in electing pro democracy candidates. I have a pack that has exactly the same mission. So it's it's fascinating and I've admired your stance for a long time now, so it's always nice when there's a little more context, you know.

And also I want to say thank you to you because you've spoken out and you probably take an extra level of vitriol that even I don't and I appreciate that. And and yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned the family letter. Here's the crazy thing. So I would go see my folks probably once a month, right drive down. They lived a couple hours south of me, and I happened to show up on a day this letter showed up to their house addressed to me. It's like I was there when the mailman came, and I'm like, all right, this is you know, in politics, sometimes get weird letters that are certain that are since certified, and but I saw the return names and I'm like, there's like, I think ten or twelve of them on it. And I was like, oh, well, that's family. This has got to be wonderful. So I opened this up and the first two words were oh my, and I remember thinking, oh, they're going to say, oh my, oh proud we are of what you've done, and it says what a disappointment you are to us into God. And I remember just kind of like kind of blinking and like, wait, did it what? And I read this thing and I'm going to just you can find the letter out there.

And also I want to say thank you to you because you've spoken out and you probably take an extra level of vitriol that even I don't and I appreciate that. And and yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned the family letter. Here's the crazy thing. So I would go see my folks probably once a month, right drive down. They lived a couple hours south of me, and I happened to show up on a day this letter showed up to their house addressed to me. It's like I was there when the mailman came, and I'm like, all right, this is you know, in politics, sometimes get weird letters that are certain that are since certified, and but I saw the return names and I'm like, there's like, I think ten or twelve of them on it. And I was like, oh, well, that's family. This has got to be wonderful. So I opened this up and the first two words were oh my, and I remember thinking, oh, they're going to say, oh my, oh proud we are of what you've done, and it says what a disappointment you are to us into God. And I remember just kind of like kind of blinking and like, wait, did it what? And I read this thing and I'm going to just you can find the letter out there.

Just you know, this letter is unbelievable, Adam. I mean when you read the whole thing.

Just you know, this letter is unbelievable, Adam. I mean when you read the whole thing.

It's stunning. It's stunning, It is.

It's stunning. It's stunning, It is.

So intense. Can I read a few lines? Yeah, I'm just going to start from the beginning, Adam. Oh my, what a disappointment you are to us and to God. We were once so proud of your accomplishments. Instead, you go against your Christian principles and join the devil's army, Democrats and the fake news media. How do you call yourself a Christian when you join the devil's army believing an abortion. We thought you were smart enough to see how the left is brainwashing so many so called good people, including yourself and many other GOP members. You have even fallen for their socialism ideals. So so sad. President Trump is not perfect, but neither are you or any of us for that matter. It's not for us to judge or to be judge. But he is a Christian. If God can forgive and use King David in the Bible, he can do the same with President Trump. Just let me read a couple of more lines for your information. Many more family members feel the same way as we do. They just didn't have the courage to sign our letter or write their own letter, not us. We are thoroughly disgusted with you, and by the way, we're calling for your removal from office. I have received numerous calls covering your actions and egregious behavior towards our President of the United States, Donald J. Trump. I mean, when you read that, were you surprised or did you think, well, you know, I could probably see this coming.

So intense. Can I read a few lines? Yeah, I'm just going to start from the beginning, Adam. Oh my, what a disappointment you are to us and to God. We were once so proud of your accomplishments. Instead, you go against your Christian principles and join the devil's army, Democrats and the fake news media. How do you call yourself a Christian when you join the devil's army believing an abortion. We thought you were smart enough to see how the left is brainwashing so many so called good people, including yourself and many other GOP members. You have even fallen for their socialism ideals. So so sad. President Trump is not perfect, but neither are you or any of us for that matter. It's not for us to judge or to be judge. But he is a Christian. If God can forgive and use King David in the Bible, he can do the same with President Trump. Just let me read a couple of more lines for your information. Many more family members feel the same way as we do. They just didn't have the courage to sign our letter or write their own letter, not us. We are thoroughly disgusted with you, and by the way, we're calling for your removal from office. I have received numerous calls covering your actions and egregious behavior towards our President of the United States, Donald J. Trump. I mean, when you read that, were you surprised or did you think, well, you know, I could probably see this coming.

I was actually really surprised because I you know, I certainly most of my family doesn't agree with what I did. And you know, my parents were good because they understood where I was coming from, and they were never like hardcore MAGA people anyway. And you know my brother and sister. But I knew a lot of the extended family was upset, but I never would have expected that they could do anything like that. I mean, you think about the fact that you know, Donald Trump, I think even said once that he's never asked for forgiveness, He's never had to ask for forgiveness, and yet they're convinced he's a Christian putting out the Plan of Salvation, which, by the way, forgiveness is the very first thing in the Plan of Salvation, and it just so Yeah, I was blown away. And it goes to show what I call the maga brainworms that exist and how they have infected these members of my family.

I was actually really surprised because I you know, I certainly most of my family doesn't agree with what I did. And you know, my parents were good because they understood where I was coming from, and they were never like hardcore MAGA people anyway. And you know my brother and sister. But I knew a lot of the extended family was upset, but I never would have expected that they could do anything like that. I mean, you think about the fact that you know, Donald Trump, I think even said once that he's never asked for forgiveness, He's never had to ask for forgiveness, and yet they're convinced he's a Christian putting out the Plan of Salvation, which, by the way, forgiveness is the very first thing in the Plan of Salvation, and it just so Yeah, I was blown away. And it goes to show what I call the maga brainworms that exist and how they have infected these members of my family.

It was incredible when you read that, Mary, I mean, I was curious this position that Donald Trump is such a man of faith. Mary, when you heard that, I wondered what went through your mind.

It was incredible when you read that, Mary, I mean, I was curious this position that Donald Trump is such a man of faith. Mary, when you heard that, I wondered what went through your mind.

Well, I actually left and Adam, I wasn't laughing at the content of the letter because it's I can well actually sorry, I kind of imagine how hurtful it was, whether you were close with these people or not through your family, and they went public with it, and it was quite graceful and un Christian, if I could use that term. But it just shows the level of delusion that's operative on the far right right now, which I'm sorry to say, seems to be almost the entirety of the Republican Party, because we just saw what happened in the House of Representatives a couple of weeks ago with the speakership vote. But to claim that Donald Trump, of all people is and I'm sure they would call him an imperfect vessel, because that's just the shortcut for somebody. We don't agree with it all, but he's going to ram through what we want. Is just so wrong on every level. I have never and I just want to step back a second and say, I don't care what Donald believes or doesn't believe. It should be irrelevant. This is the United States of America. However, the cynicism of using other people's faith in the way that he does when he himself believes nothing. There is nobody, no entity more important in Donald Trump's universe than he is to himself. So I just want to be clear about what they were acted. Was it the stance you took after this alleged man of God tried to overturn his own government? Is that what they objected to? Yeah?

Well, I actually left and Adam, I wasn't laughing at the content of the letter because it's I can well actually sorry, I kind of imagine how hurtful it was, whether you were close with these people or not through your family, and they went public with it, and it was quite graceful and un Christian, if I could use that term. But it just shows the level of delusion that's operative on the far right right now, which I'm sorry to say, seems to be almost the entirety of the Republican Party, because we just saw what happened in the House of Representatives a couple of weeks ago with the speakership vote. But to claim that Donald Trump, of all people is and I'm sure they would call him an imperfect vessel, because that's just the shortcut for somebody. We don't agree with it all, but he's going to ram through what we want. Is just so wrong on every level. I have never and I just want to step back a second and say, I don't care what Donald believes or doesn't believe. It should be irrelevant. This is the United States of America. However, the cynicism of using other people's faith in the way that he does when he himself believes nothing. There is nobody, no entity more important in Donald Trump's universe than he is to himself. So I just want to be clear about what they were acted. Was it the stance you took after this alleged man of God tried to overturn his own government? Is that what they objected to? Yeah?

I think this came in slightly after I voted to impeach and yeah, and that was that was their government.

I think this came in slightly after I voted to impeach and yeah, and that was that was their government.

It was January eighth, twenty twenty one.

It was January eighth, twenty twenty one.

What's it. Yeah, Yeah, So I don't even think that by that point, I don't think i'd even voted to impeach him. Then that was just me speaking out, you know, against it, and of course I was. I was active before January sixth and calling that stuff out. But again it's it's Christian nationalism first off, and that has no place in government. But Christianity has been replaced by Christian nationalism. And I say, it's no different. That is the kind of thing that if you were in Afghanistan and there was somebody, you know, fighting against the Taliban, would receive from a Taliban supporting family, and there's no difference in that. And it's just you know it too. People ask me like, how does it make you feel? I'm like, over the last ten months, I've had to take inventory with the impact that this stuff has had, and it's cumulatively had an effect. It's just when you're in the middle of combat, you don't have PTSD detil after. But I look at it and I'm just like, how miserable their life must be to be living with that kind of anger and hate. And I have no desire, I guess I for my sake, I forgive them, but I have no desire to have any kind of a you know, a come to like, let's let's come to terms party. They can never talk to me again, as far as I care.

What's it. Yeah, Yeah, So I don't even think that by that point, I don't think i'd even voted to impeach him. Then that was just me speaking out, you know, against it, and of course I was. I was active before January sixth and calling that stuff out. But again it's it's Christian nationalism first off, and that has no place in government. But Christianity has been replaced by Christian nationalism. And I say, it's no different. That is the kind of thing that if you were in Afghanistan and there was somebody, you know, fighting against the Taliban, would receive from a Taliban supporting family, and there's no difference in that. And it's just you know it too. People ask me like, how does it make you feel? I'm like, over the last ten months, I've had to take inventory with the impact that this stuff has had, and it's cumulatively had an effect. It's just when you're in the middle of combat, you don't have PTSD detil after. But I look at it and I'm just like, how miserable their life must be to be living with that kind of anger and hate. And I have no desire, I guess I for my sake, I forgive them, but I have no desire to have any kind of a you know, a come to like, let's let's come to terms party. They can never talk to me again, as far as I care.

Your co Pilot in a Rock also sent you a text that said I'm ashamed to have ever served with you.

Your co Pilot in a Rock also sent you a text that said I'm ashamed to have ever served with you.

Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's if you think about the bonds of war. That's like, that's deeper than family. I mean, And for him to send that, and I just remember, I think I replied to him, and I said something to the extent of like, how is it that you woke up this morning and you were so eaten up by this anger against me that you would send me this text message? And like, do you think that somehow I would have gotten it and been like, oh, you're right, I repent. No, it would just make me mad. But you had to feel like it made you feel better to send it. And so I blocked him and never talked to him again.

Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's if you think about the bonds of war. That's like, that's deeper than family. I mean, And for him to send that, and I just remember, I think I replied to him, and I said something to the extent of like, how is it that you woke up this morning and you were so eaten up by this anger against me that you would send me this text message? And like, do you think that somehow I would have gotten it and been like, oh, you're right, I repent. No, it would just make me mad. But you had to feel like it made you feel better to send it. And so I blocked him and never talked to him again.

I was going to ask what happened, And Mary, I'm curious, just before we move on to really other aspects of the book, have you ever gotten a letter like that? Have you been criticized either publicly or privately by members of the Trump family, and can you tell us about that experience?

I was going to ask what happened, And Mary, I'm curious, just before we move on to really other aspects of the book, have you ever gotten a letter like that? Have you been criticized either publicly or privately by members of the Trump family, and can you tell us about that experience?

It actually wasn't very dramatic. In some ways, there are Trumps. So they sued me, and they continued to sue me. But like our love language, uh is lawsuits. But you know, we had been estranged for a really long time because I got disinherited. As you know, it's ours to show up to Christmas after that has happened, and it was certainly after both of my grandparents had died. There was sort of no need. But I did try tomend fences with my aunt mary Anne, which is why I showed up at the White House in April of twenty seventeen. But I didn't really have any contact with them, and as you can imagine, these aren't people with whom one has deep emotional bonds, which is why, Adam, I just want to say really quickly, I felt such pain about your co pilot because I would find that much more wounding, yeah than if my whatever my family would have to say about me. So no, my family quite honestly has been the leadst of my worries over the last few years.

It actually wasn't very dramatic. In some ways, there are Trumps. So they sued me, and they continued to sue me. But like our love language, uh is lawsuits. But you know, we had been estranged for a really long time because I got disinherited. As you know, it's ours to show up to Christmas after that has happened, and it was certainly after both of my grandparents had died. There was sort of no need. But I did try tomend fences with my aunt mary Anne, which is why I showed up at the White House in April of twenty seventeen. But I didn't really have any contact with them, and as you can imagine, these aren't people with whom one has deep emotional bonds, which is why, Adam, I just want to say really quickly, I felt such pain about your co pilot because I would find that much more wounding, yeah than if my whatever my family would have to say about me. So no, my family quite honestly has been the leadst of my worries over the last few years.

Let's talk a little, Adam about your childhood, because it sounds like you had a wonderful upbringing in every sense of the word. Can you describe what it was like to be Adam Kinzinger as a little boy?

Let's talk a little, Adam about your childhood, because it sounds like you had a wonderful upbringing in every sense of the word. Can you describe what it was like to be Adam Kinzinger as a little boy?

Yeah, I mean, it's great you know, looking back on it, you know, I know I live in Texas, and uh so I kind of like missed the Midwest. When you leave, you kind of realize what you had. And you know, Midwest it's great people. I was raised with a great mom and dad, great brother and sister, right like your middle middle class family. My dad ran a homeless shelter and my mom's a public school teacher. And you know, also it was that life. We we were initially in a pretty strict religious church, religious background, which I could talk more about, but yeah, I would say, you know, just just a great childhood. At six years old, I started to taking interest in politics, which is weird.

Yeah, I mean, it's great you know, looking back on it, you know, I know I live in Texas, and uh so I kind of like missed the Midwest. When you leave, you kind of realize what you had. And you know, Midwest it's great people. I was raised with a great mom and dad, great brother and sister, right like your middle middle class family. My dad ran a homeless shelter and my mom's a public school teacher. And you know, also it was that life. We we were initially in a pretty strict religious church, religious background, which I could talk more about, but yeah, I would say, you know, just just a great childhood. At six years old, I started to taking interest in politics, which is weird.

And how did that happen?

And how did that happen?

You know, because the press or something. No, it was it was the eighties and a guy was running for mayor, John Lewis of Jacksonville, Florida. We lived there for a few years, and uh he had hot painkyard science because it was the eighties and the hot pink was a thing, and I was just kind of obsessed with that fanfare of it. But that led to it as I got older and could understand more or understanding what politics was, and it just was like, I don't know, service in politics was always just something I was interested in. But I went through a very rebellious period in high school and college. Failed out of college because I got too involved in my fraternity. I got a point eight in school one semester, which is you have to really try to get a point oh eight, by the way it is it is. And that allowed me then to kind of really frankly get kicked out of college and spend some time taking inventory. And then I got accepted back and did well. But yeah, it was it was an interesting time. But yeah, great childhood and I think has led to a lot of the you know, as the church would always say, it's like, do the right thing, it's just most of them actually didn't. But it stuck with me to do the right thing.

You know, because the press or something. No, it was it was the eighties and a guy was running for mayor, John Lewis of Jacksonville, Florida. We lived there for a few years, and uh he had hot painkyard science because it was the eighties and the hot pink was a thing, and I was just kind of obsessed with that fanfare of it. But that led to it as I got older and could understand more or understanding what politics was, and it just was like, I don't know, service in politics was always just something I was interested in. But I went through a very rebellious period in high school and college. Failed out of college because I got too involved in my fraternity. I got a point eight in school one semester, which is you have to really try to get a point oh eight, by the way it is it is. And that allowed me then to kind of really frankly get kicked out of college and spend some time taking inventory. And then I got accepted back and did well. But yeah, it was it was an interesting time. But yeah, great childhood and I think has led to a lot of the you know, as the church would always say, it's like, do the right thing, it's just most of them actually didn't. But it stuck with me to do the right thing.

A public school teacher is a mom and a father who I know was a businessman and then ultimately ran a homeless shelter. It seems like that would be the makings of a democrat. I'm not a Republican. So was it your religious upbringing that that sort of imbued more conservative values?

A public school teacher is a mom and a father who I know was a businessman and then ultimately ran a homeless shelter. It seems like that would be the makings of a democrat. I'm not a Republican. So was it your religious upbringing that that sort of imbued more conservative values?

I guess so it's you know, my parents were Republicans as well, and I actually I would say I would put my dad in the line of like the compassionate conservatism before it became uncool to say. And you know, it's this idea that we do care about the down and out and the best thing to do is to help them have a hand up and to make their life better. And so I think it was a what I would actually consider actual conservatism and not this like angry cut mean, you know division. It would be like a real compassion for people. And so I think that's where a lot of it came from. But certainly the religion, the religious background. I mean, you couldn't be a Democrat and be an independent fundamental Baptist. I mean, you'd be kicked out of the church.

I guess so it's you know, my parents were Republicans as well, and I actually I would say I would put my dad in the line of like the compassionate conservatism before it became uncool to say. And you know, it's this idea that we do care about the down and out and the best thing to do is to help them have a hand up and to make their life better. And so I think it was a what I would actually consider actual conservatism and not this like angry cut mean, you know division. It would be like a real compassion for people. And so I think that's where a lot of it came from. But certainly the religion, the religious background. I mean, you couldn't be a Democrat and be an independent fundamental Baptist. I mean, you'd be kicked out of the church.

Tell us about your church. I don't really know much about fundamental Baptists.

Tell us about your church. I don't really know much about fundamental Baptists.

Yeah, yeah, it's it was so it's the last type of church that still does the no drinking, no dancing, no smoking, no movies, no rock music. Right, Oh, like footloose, We like it's exactly, it's Footloose, That's who it is. And uh so that was me and that lasted for I don't know, i'd say that went until probably college. I never followed a lot of those I was drinking pretty young, unfortunately, and I think that was part of a rebellious streak, but yeah, it was just it's one of those where you kind of are taught everything is black and white. You see this, you see this in my relative's letter. Frankly, that's what you're seeing. But that also helped me when I started to kind of challenge what I believed and challenge the things I thought. It actually helped me to open a lot more up in my light. And I think it's probably a good reason why I'm here and why I'm able to say, like, the Republican Party is wrong and it doesn't believe in anything. Honestly, I think that process of kind of leaving that church I consider myself now just like Protestant non denominational, and the process of leaving that church I think has helped in a lot more ways than just that.

Yeah, yeah, it's it was so it's the last type of church that still does the no drinking, no dancing, no smoking, no movies, no rock music. Right, Oh, like footloose, We like it's exactly, it's Footloose, That's who it is. And uh so that was me and that lasted for I don't know, i'd say that went until probably college. I never followed a lot of those I was drinking pretty young, unfortunately, and I think that was part of a rebellious streak, but yeah, it was just it's one of those where you kind of are taught everything is black and white. You see this, you see this in my relative's letter. Frankly, that's what you're seeing. But that also helped me when I started to kind of challenge what I believed and challenge the things I thought. It actually helped me to open a lot more up in my light. And I think it's probably a good reason why I'm here and why I'm able to say, like, the Republican Party is wrong and it doesn't believe in anything. Honestly, I think that process of kind of leaving that church I consider myself now just like Protestant non denominational, and the process of leaving that church I think has helped in a lot more ways than just that.

After this, Adam on what he got wrong, what he's learned, and how more Republicans can have a little more self reflection. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Now more of my conversation with Adam Kinzinger and my plus one Mary Trump.

After this, Adam on what he got wrong, what he's learned, and how more Republicans can have a little more self reflection. If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Now more of my conversation with Adam Kinzinger and my plus one Mary Trump.

Mary.

Mary.

One thing I was struck by is Adam's very honest about his own sort of flaws and failings and his own quite frankly big ego. And it seems like that ego was one of the things that motivated you to run for office after serving in a rock. Can you explain that.

One thing I was struck by is Adam's very honest about his own sort of flaws and failings and his own quite frankly big ego. And it seems like that ego was one of the things that motivated you to run for office after serving in a rock. Can you explain that.

Yeah, So listen, if somebody, if a politician tells you they don't have an ego, they're lying or they're not going to win. I mean, that's just a fact. And because you have to. You know, when I ran for Congress, I basically said to seven hundred thousand people that have all of you, I'm the best. You gotta believe it. And so, you know, I was in Iraq and I remember, you know, coming back from that and just thinking, you know, I defended the country on the outside, I want to defend it now on the inside thirty two or thirty yeah, thirty two years old, thinking that you know, people would want to elect me and put me in Congress. They ultimately did. And uh, but you you when you start tasting fame. And by the way, politics is the new Hollywood, because now you can actually become famous. You can guarantee you'll become famous, and you can do it easier than you can on Hollywood. All you got to do is tweet something astronomically crazy and the world will know your name. And so when I started to get a taste for that fame. When I was running, I was only the second post nine to eleven veteran to get into Congress. You know, I was young. A lot of attention and that becomes addictive, and you know, you start getting on the national TV and people will text you and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm known. Somebody saw me the airport. Yeah, I'm the man. Somebody saw me in the important they knew who I was, you know, and uh, but it's a reality that Look, I think Donald Trump is that he's addicted to the fame and the attention as well. But yeah, ego plays a lot. Now, I'll just say also quickly on that. The one thing that I think stuck with me from the war. From that, and as part of the reason that you know I took the stand I did, is I remember thinking, okay, if I'm going to send young people to die for the country, which I will, you know, as a member of Congress. And I'm hawkish too. So if I'm going to send people to die for this country, I have to be willing to sacrifice this job for the country, because how can I ask an eighteen year old to give up their life, which is the obviously ultimate sacrifice, if I'm not willing to give up a one hundred and seventy four thousand dollars a year job with a powerful title. And that stuck with me. You know, I thought it would be like maybe some vote on social security reform or some I didn't think it would be actually defending democracy. But that stuck with me.

Yeah, So listen, if somebody, if a politician tells you they don't have an ego, they're lying or they're not going to win. I mean, that's just a fact. And because you have to. You know, when I ran for Congress, I basically said to seven hundred thousand people that have all of you, I'm the best. You gotta believe it. And so, you know, I was in Iraq and I remember, you know, coming back from that and just thinking, you know, I defended the country on the outside, I want to defend it now on the inside thirty two or thirty yeah, thirty two years old, thinking that you know, people would want to elect me and put me in Congress. They ultimately did. And uh, but you you when you start tasting fame. And by the way, politics is the new Hollywood, because now you can actually become famous. You can guarantee you'll become famous, and you can do it easier than you can on Hollywood. All you got to do is tweet something astronomically crazy and the world will know your name. And so when I started to get a taste for that fame. When I was running, I was only the second post nine to eleven veteran to get into Congress. You know, I was young. A lot of attention and that becomes addictive, and you know, you start getting on the national TV and people will text you and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm known. Somebody saw me the airport. Yeah, I'm the man. Somebody saw me in the important they knew who I was, you know, and uh, but it's a reality that Look, I think Donald Trump is that he's addicted to the fame and the attention as well. But yeah, ego plays a lot. Now, I'll just say also quickly on that. The one thing that I think stuck with me from the war. From that, and as part of the reason that you know I took the stand I did, is I remember thinking, okay, if I'm going to send young people to die for the country, which I will, you know, as a member of Congress. And I'm hawkish too. So if I'm going to send people to die for this country, I have to be willing to sacrifice this job for the country, because how can I ask an eighteen year old to give up their life, which is the obviously ultimate sacrifice, if I'm not willing to give up a one hundred and seventy four thousand dollars a year job with a powerful title. And that stuck with me. You know, I thought it would be like maybe some vote on social security reform or some I didn't think it would be actually defending democracy. But that stuck with me.

Is that what you think mere attracted your uncle to all of this? I mean, he was already famous, he was already you know, nationally known. Was this just fame on steroids for him? You think?

Is that what you think mere attracted your uncle to all of this? I mean, he was already famous, he was already you know, nationally known. Was this just fame on steroids for him? You think?

You know, I think I differ with with some people about this.

You know, I think I differ with with some people about this.

I didn't.

I didn't.

I don't think that Donald intended to run with any level of seriousness. Yes, he'd run before, and it was always branding. And he always knew because this is one of his few legitimate skills. He always knew where the line was and when to pull back, because he could never be seen to be losing, right, he had to take control of the narrative and then suddenly, and I think part of the reason he probably didn't take it seriously is because like me and the rest of my family were New Yorkers, and everybody in New York knows that he's a total loser. So he saw how the rest of the country or large large pieces of the rest of the country thought about him, which was very different. And he starts winning, and he starts winning primaries, and he starts getting more support and worse. And I think this is one of the reasons we're here now, because he's taught this lesson to many in the Republican Party. He started pushing the envelope and realizing he could get away with anything. When he realized that he was getting traction and could get the nomination, I think that it was about winning, not about being the person with the power and doing the job. He wanted the person with the power to wield it and get money, because it's always about money. So, Adam, I'm curious if that's been your experience with what seems to be this incredibly swift transformation of the party that nobody on that side of the aisle feels like they need to play by any rules anymore, and they keep getting rewarded for it.

I don't think that Donald intended to run with any level of seriousness. Yes, he'd run before, and it was always branding. And he always knew because this is one of his few legitimate skills. He always knew where the line was and when to pull back, because he could never be seen to be losing, right, he had to take control of the narrative and then suddenly, and I think part of the reason he probably didn't take it seriously is because like me and the rest of my family were New Yorkers, and everybody in New York knows that he's a total loser. So he saw how the rest of the country or large large pieces of the rest of the country thought about him, which was very different. And he starts winning, and he starts winning primaries, and he starts getting more support and worse. And I think this is one of the reasons we're here now, because he's taught this lesson to many in the Republican Party. He started pushing the envelope and realizing he could get away with anything. When he realized that he was getting traction and could get the nomination, I think that it was about winning, not about being the person with the power and doing the job. He wanted the person with the power to wield it and get money, because it's always about money. So, Adam, I'm curious if that's been your experience with what seems to be this incredibly swift transformation of the party that nobody on that side of the aisle feels like they need to play by any rules anymore, and they keep getting rewarded for it.

Yeah, rules are for suckers. And you know, if you think about what you said about Trump, I think is one hundred percent right, because it's probably got to be funny for you to if I just call him Trump because you're like, I'm Trump too. But anyway, Donald's.

Yeah, rules are for suckers. And you know, if you think about what you said about Trump, I think is one hundred percent right, because it's probably got to be funny for you to if I just call him Trump because you're like, I'm Trump too. But anyway, Donald's.

Works too because he hates being called Donald by his support in it?

Works too because he hates being called Donald by his support in it?

Does he really yes, oh yes, okay, perfect, and I'll call Donald but he I think he just wanted to run, to be crazy and you know, to brand, like you said, and he accidentally got in front of a wave YEP, which was GOP wanted to break the system. And by the way, conversely, I think that the contrary not yet, but by twenty twenty eight is actually ready for a healer to come along, and they won't know it until that healer basically runs and wins, because you always see that in hindsight. But yeah, I think, Look, they used to be people that went into Congress, went in for the purpose of passing legislation, right of actually achieving things. You don't see that anymore because passing legislation. If I would run and say all the great things I did for my district, that didn't matter anymore. What mattered was how often I was on Fox News, how angry I was, how much I took on the Democrats. And because it's because the new currency is not accomplishments. The new currency is fame and anger. And so yes, if you play by the rules, and if you say, like I talk about fire, right, and it's one of the things I admit is we all played with fire a little bit. And some of that is the anger, the fear, the division, and every leader can do it, but you're supposed to like keep that fire contained and then put it out at certain times. Right.

Does he really yes, oh yes, okay, perfect, and I'll call Donald but he I think he just wanted to run, to be crazy and you know, to brand, like you said, and he accidentally got in front of a wave YEP, which was GOP wanted to break the system. And by the way, conversely, I think that the contrary not yet, but by twenty twenty eight is actually ready for a healer to come along, and they won't know it until that healer basically runs and wins, because you always see that in hindsight. But yeah, I think, Look, they used to be people that went into Congress, went in for the purpose of passing legislation, right of actually achieving things. You don't see that anymore because passing legislation. If I would run and say all the great things I did for my district, that didn't matter anymore. What mattered was how often I was on Fox News, how angry I was, how much I took on the Democrats. And because it's because the new currency is not accomplishments. The new currency is fame and anger. And so yes, if you play by the rules, and if you say, like I talk about fire, right, and it's one of the things I admit is we all played with fire a little bit. And some of that is the anger, the fear, the division, and every leader can do it, but you're supposed to like keep that fire contained and then put it out at certain times. Right.

But you did fall for that initially. Yeah, didn't you talk about how you made a lot of mistakes and you kind of went down that road before you self corrected. Yeah, but you were one of the very few people who self corrected.

But you did fall for that initially. Yeah, didn't you talk about how you made a lot of mistakes and you kind of went down that road before you self corrected. Yeah, but you were one of the very few people who self corrected.

Yeah. And it's because I mean, look, it's I didn't play with the fire as much as other people did because I always still saw, like, okay, I'm going to be judged by history here, right, And that was important to me, but I did play with it. And a huge problem with Citizens United the fundraising right, we're becoming an oligarchy in this country. Let's just be clear about that. And so everybody, now, if you're a regular person that wants to run for Congress, you've got to raise a ton of money. You can't raise money on optimism. I can't, honestly, if I send out an email that says I want to fix the road next door, or I want to bring the country together, you're not going to raise money. You will raise money if you say that Nancy Pelosi wants to kill your family. Because listen, no matter how much money you make or don't make, if I convince you that I'm the only thing that can stand between you and literally your family's death, which a lot of people believe, you'll give me anything, including your social Security check. And so that's what's happened. People have just gone off the rails because now it's a dopamine addiction. Right, you do a drug, you got to do more of the drug the next time and the next time, and that drug right now is fear and anger for people.

Yeah. And it's because I mean, look, it's I didn't play with the fire as much as other people did because I always still saw, like, okay, I'm going to be judged by history here, right, And that was important to me, but I did play with it. And a huge problem with Citizens United the fundraising right, we're becoming an oligarchy in this country. Let's just be clear about that. And so everybody, now, if you're a regular person that wants to run for Congress, you've got to raise a ton of money. You can't raise money on optimism. I can't, honestly, if I send out an email that says I want to fix the road next door, or I want to bring the country together, you're not going to raise money. You will raise money if you say that Nancy Pelosi wants to kill your family. Because listen, no matter how much money you make or don't make, if I convince you that I'm the only thing that can stand between you and literally your family's death, which a lot of people believe, you'll give me anything, including your social Security check. And so that's what's happened. People have just gone off the rails because now it's a dopamine addiction. Right, you do a drug, you got to do more of the drug the next time and the next time, and that drug right now is fear and anger for people.

Why do you think so few people like you in the Republican Party. Adam said, no, mos was it the dopamine? Was it the addiction to power? Was it saying that, you know, I've got a dance with the one who brought me or whatever it is. I mean, I know you talk about Lindsey Graham in the book. I know you talk about Ted Cruz in the book. And you know, I just interviewed the author, McKay Coppins of a book about Mitt Romney, and I feel like there's so many parallels between you and Mitt Romney. Did you two ever talk about this?

Why do you think so few people like you in the Republican Party. Adam said, no, mos was it the dopamine? Was it the addiction to power? Was it saying that, you know, I've got a dance with the one who brought me or whatever it is. I mean, I know you talk about Lindsey Graham in the book. I know you talk about Ted Cruz in the book. And you know, I just interviewed the author, McKay Coppins of a book about Mitt Romney, and I feel like there's so many parallels between you and Mitt Romney. Did you two ever talk about this?

No, we actually text on occasion, but not really about this. It just kind of like real quick text. He's not a big Texter, but I am. And but I yeah. I mean I think it's that it's like everybody in politics, and I'm not saying this discouraged any excuse, but everybody in politics you got to play with compromise a little bit, right, and you know you're kind of figuring this out, and what happens and what happened with Donald is everybody started to say, Okay, well he's the president. I'll accept this, and I'll do that. And eventually when you turn if you're going to turn against him, you have to accept the fact that you did things to enable him because by sheer survival, still you're still there. And it's like the sunken cost thing. So in Vietnam, you know we lost when we lost ten thousand men, how come we didn't leave Vietnam? Well, because we already lost ten thousand men, how can we leave now? Right? So we stayed till we lost fifty thousand. Well, that's the problem is once you and Kevin McCarthy's a great example this, once you start giving away a piece of your soul, you eventually have to say the last seven years I've been actually a huge sellout to then turn and it's just much easier to convince yourself that, Look, I can't make a difference. I mean, look at Kinsinger and Cheney, they both got sniped. Why would I put my head out? Well, it's true, but when nobody puts their head up, ever, the ones that do get sniped.

No, we actually text on occasion, but not really about this. It just kind of like real quick text. He's not a big Texter, but I am. And but I yeah. I mean I think it's that it's like everybody in politics, and I'm not saying this discouraged any excuse, but everybody in politics you got to play with compromise a little bit, right, and you know you're kind of figuring this out, and what happens and what happened with Donald is everybody started to say, Okay, well he's the president. I'll accept this, and I'll do that. And eventually when you turn if you're going to turn against him, you have to accept the fact that you did things to enable him because by sheer survival, still you're still there. And it's like the sunken cost thing. So in Vietnam, you know we lost when we lost ten thousand men, how come we didn't leave Vietnam? Well, because we already lost ten thousand men, how can we leave now? Right? So we stayed till we lost fifty thousand. Well, that's the problem is once you and Kevin McCarthy's a great example this, once you start giving away a piece of your soul, you eventually have to say the last seven years I've been actually a huge sellout to then turn and it's just much easier to convince yourself that, Look, I can't make a difference. I mean, look at Kinsinger and Cheney, they both got sniped. Why would I put my head out? Well, it's true, but when nobody puts their head up, ever, the ones that do get sniped.

I just want to add something to that question, because you talk about how you did not vote for Donald in twenty sixteen, but you did vote for him twenty twenty, which is fascinating to me.

I just want to add something to that question, because you talk about how you did not vote for Donald in twenty sixteen, but you did vote for him twenty twenty, which is fascinating to me.

I know I'm the only one in America that did that, by the.

I know I'm the only one in America that did that, by the.

Way, but in the way you explained it, it makes perfect sense because we're hearing now that a lot of senators didn't vote to impeach him or convict him in the Senate because they were afraid of retaliation. And I don't think you use this phrase explicitly, but there's a certain level of peer pressure as well, and knowing that with somebody like Donald you're all in or you're all out, there's no you can agree with him sometimes and disagree with him. So I'm very curious though, why for more people, January sixth wasn't the moment he lost the election, no matter how much he wanted to lie about it, he incited a violent insurrection against his own government, placing you, your staff and the staff of everybody else in that building, all of your colleagues at risk. People are calling to hang Mike Pence. And two days later, three days later, I don't remember what it was a very short period of time.

Way, but in the way you explained it, it makes perfect sense because we're hearing now that a lot of senators didn't vote to impeach him or convict him in the Senate because they were afraid of retaliation. And I don't think you use this phrase explicitly, but there's a certain level of peer pressure as well, and knowing that with somebody like Donald you're all in or you're all out, there's no you can agree with him sometimes and disagree with him. So I'm very curious though, why for more people, January sixth wasn't the moment he lost the election, no matter how much he wanted to lie about it, he incited a violent insurrection against his own government, placing you, your staff and the staff of everybody else in that building, all of your colleagues at risk. People are calling to hang Mike Pence. And two days later, three days later, I don't remember what it was a very short period of time.

I was gonna say, Mary, it was the moment for a moment, right, it.

I was gonna say, Mary, it was the moment for a moment, right, it.

Was the final off round and the best and clearest one.

Was the final off round and the best and clearest one.

What happened, Well, look, so I'll say you know, on voting the second time for him. I had experienced four years of everybody being like, you never voted for Trump, you know, you're a pos and all this, and I just basically.

What happened, Well, look, so I'll say you know, on voting the second time for him. I had experienced four years of everybody being like, you never voted for Trump, you know, you're a pos and all this, and I just basically.

Who was saying that your constituents are your colleagues.

Who was saying that your constituents are your colleagues.

Yeah, yeah, the constituents. The colleagues didn't care, but and so you do with Then I was just finally like, okay, I'm not gonna lie. So I'm like, I'll vote for him. I didn't do it enthusiastically, but I did it so I didn't have to deal with what I just dealt with for four years. By the way, that's a macrocosm of exactly why Mike Johnson just won the speakership because there were twenty five Republicans that said, note to Jim Jordan, which is great, by the way, but they just couldn't do it a second time, right, and so they're like fine, and they capitulated on that one. But the January sixth it was weird because in the conference, So when I refer to the conference, just imagine all these Republican congressmen and women meeting. Okay, So in the conference, it was basically dead silent after January sixth, And to give you an example, I was actually considering doing a vote of no confidence against Kevin McCarthy for allowing this to happen, and I actually thought that I might have been able to win it. So that gives you an idea of where the conference was. Okay, three weeks later, so everybody's kind of sitting there quiet. We don't know what's going to happen. We're waiting for direction and leadership to say, okay, it's time to move on. Right, there's still the crazy Trump faction, but they were pretty small and quiet at this point. They were I mean, they were loud, but they were small. Kevin McCarthy goes to mar A Lago, gets this picture taken with Donald Trump, and the world turns on a dime. And that is when he took the off ramp we had, and he drove right past the off ramp onto the interstate and floored it. And there have been one hundred but jillion different off ramps we could have taken, but that was the biggest one. And Kevin made the decision because he wanted to be Speaker of the House. He knew he needed to raise money. He knew that if he took on Donald Trump, that he would be denied enough to become speaker, and so he decided to fully embrace Trump because once he did that, quote unquote, he knew he could bring the rest of everybody else along. It was a selfish decision by Kevin McCarthy that then led to all these limmings in the Republican Congress following because if Kevin's going with him, we can't not.

Yeah, yeah, the constituents. The colleagues didn't care, but and so you do with Then I was just finally like, okay, I'm not gonna lie. So I'm like, I'll vote for him. I didn't do it enthusiastically, but I did it so I didn't have to deal with what I just dealt with for four years. By the way, that's a macrocosm of exactly why Mike Johnson just won the speakership because there were twenty five Republicans that said, note to Jim Jordan, which is great, by the way, but they just couldn't do it a second time, right, and so they're like fine, and they capitulated on that one. But the January sixth it was weird because in the conference, So when I refer to the conference, just imagine all these Republican congressmen and women meeting. Okay, So in the conference, it was basically dead silent after January sixth, And to give you an example, I was actually considering doing a vote of no confidence against Kevin McCarthy for allowing this to happen, and I actually thought that I might have been able to win it. So that gives you an idea of where the conference was. Okay, three weeks later, so everybody's kind of sitting there quiet. We don't know what's going to happen. We're waiting for direction and leadership to say, okay, it's time to move on. Right, there's still the crazy Trump faction, but they were pretty small and quiet at this point. They were I mean, they were loud, but they were small. Kevin McCarthy goes to mar A Lago, gets this picture taken with Donald Trump, and the world turns on a dime. And that is when he took the off ramp we had, and he drove right past the off ramp onto the interstate and floored it. And there have been one hundred but jillion different off ramps we could have taken, but that was the biggest one. And Kevin made the decision because he wanted to be Speaker of the House. He knew he needed to raise money. He knew that if he took on Donald Trump, that he would be denied enough to become speaker, and so he decided to fully embrace Trump because once he did that, quote unquote, he knew he could bring the rest of everybody else along. It was a selfish decision by Kevin McCarthy that then led to all these limmings in the Republican Congress following because if Kevin's going with him, we can't not.

And did Lindsey Graham. There were a lot of people who expressed their disgust for that's tiny window of time. And then you're right, everything turned on a dime. And is that why you think so poorly of Kevin McCarthy.

And did Lindsey Graham. There were a lot of people who expressed their disgust for that's tiny window of time. And then you're right, everything turned on a dime. And is that why you think so poorly of Kevin McCarthy.

Yeah, So I started to dislike Kevin prior to the election because I noticed that he was defending Donald Trump more than he would defend his people. So, you know, if I said something against Donald and I got attacked by him because I'd say that a lot. Even during his presidency, Kevin wouldn't defend me. He would defend the former president. And I'm like, well, your job as the minority leader is to defend your people. So that's when that fallout started. And then I also have no respect for people that don't truly have a moral core. You can make compromise for sure, and that's okay to some extent, but when it comes to actual, like oath type things, I lose all respect for you. Look, and this is maybe a controversial way to say it, I don't care. I don't take an oath to the people I represent. Frankly, the people I represent are secondary. The only thing I take an oath to is the Constitution of the United States. And if seven hundred thousand people I represent all want me to violate my oath, I took an oath not to them, to the Constitution, and Kevin McCarthy took that exact same oath and instead he made a decision for himself that would change the trajectory of this country. Look, I can say there can be any issue. We disagree on any issue, but we can work through that as long as we agree that the election system is sound. Okay. It's why you've even come around on the issue of voting rights, because I'm like, you know what Republicans are trying to steal elections. I used to like vote against some of the things because I'm like, yeah, no, that's a little Hyperbolieve. There's not going to be a stolen election. Now, I'm like, I'm not in Congress anymore or so it's easy to say it, but I would vote for voting rights now because I'm like, yeah, actually, Republicans are trying to disenfranchise. But once you take away the faith in the election system, you cannot govern yourself. Like democracy goes out the window. And that's what Donald Trump did by saying the election was stolen. He convinced half the country that the election system doesn't work. And by definition, democracy can't work if you don't have a system that doesn't work.

Yeah, So I started to dislike Kevin prior to the election because I noticed that he was defending Donald Trump more than he would defend his people. So, you know, if I said something against Donald and I got attacked by him because I'd say that a lot. Even during his presidency, Kevin wouldn't defend me. He would defend the former president. And I'm like, well, your job as the minority leader is to defend your people. So that's when that fallout started. And then I also have no respect for people that don't truly have a moral core. You can make compromise for sure, and that's okay to some extent, but when it comes to actual, like oath type things, I lose all respect for you. Look, and this is maybe a controversial way to say it, I don't care. I don't take an oath to the people I represent. Frankly, the people I represent are secondary. The only thing I take an oath to is the Constitution of the United States. And if seven hundred thousand people I represent all want me to violate my oath, I took an oath not to them, to the Constitution, and Kevin McCarthy took that exact same oath and instead he made a decision for himself that would change the trajectory of this country. Look, I can say there can be any issue. We disagree on any issue, but we can work through that as long as we agree that the election system is sound. Okay. It's why you've even come around on the issue of voting rights, because I'm like, you know what Republicans are trying to steal elections. I used to like vote against some of the things because I'm like, yeah, no, that's a little Hyperbolieve. There's not going to be a stolen election. Now, I'm like, I'm not in Congress anymore or so it's easy to say it, but I would vote for voting rights now because I'm like, yeah, actually, Republicans are trying to disenfranchise. But once you take away the faith in the election system, you cannot govern yourself. Like democracy goes out the window. And that's what Donald Trump did by saying the election was stolen. He convinced half the country that the election system doesn't work. And by definition, democracy can't work if you don't have a system that doesn't work.

After the break the January six hearings, Adam Kinziger on what they didn't do and what they did do. Now more of my conversation with Adam Kinziger and Mary Trump. What was it like overseeing those January six hearings? I watched most of them. I had a friend who helped produce them, and I thought they were so well done and so clearly made the case for what had happened, and yet they didn't move the needle. And I know you right about this, Adam, but share with our listeners why you think that was the case.

After the break the January six hearings, Adam Kinziger on what they didn't do and what they did do. Now more of my conversation with Adam Kinziger and Mary Trump. What was it like overseeing those January six hearings? I watched most of them. I had a friend who helped produce them, and I thought they were so well done and so clearly made the case for what had happened, and yet they didn't move the needle. And I know you right about this, Adam, but share with our listeners why you think that was the case.

Well, I first of want to say it didn't move the needle in the GOP. But I think there is no way. Oh I don't just think this, I know this. The Department of Justice would not have a case against Donald Trump right now without the January sixth Committee. So it was historic in that way. I know that my son Christian, when he goes to school and learns about this time period, he's not going to hear about the FBI doing this or Antifa. He's going to hear the truth because we got to the bottom of that. So yes, it didn't change people's minds at the moment because they are so vested in being right that they can't admit right. But their kids are never going to believe the conspiracy theories, and I think within ten years their parents are going to pretend like they never believed it in the first place.

Well, I first of want to say it didn't move the needle in the GOP. But I think there is no way. Oh I don't just think this, I know this. The Department of Justice would not have a case against Donald Trump right now without the January sixth Committee. So it was historic in that way. I know that my son Christian, when he goes to school and learns about this time period, he's not going to hear about the FBI doing this or Antifa. He's going to hear the truth because we got to the bottom of that. So yes, it didn't change people's minds at the moment because they are so vested in being right that they can't admit right. But their kids are never going to believe the conspiracy theories, and I think within ten years their parents are going to pretend like they never believed it in the first place.

I think it made a huge difference for the reasons you say, for the education it gave us, and absolutely for what it led the DOJ to do, the evidence that was collected. One of the most brilliant things about it too is that almost what ninety eight percent of the people testifying were Republicans, which was huge. I think it motivated voters. I think you don't have what happened in twenty twenty two without the January sixth hearing. And it doesn't mean that it convinced Republicans. It means that it motivated the rest of us who were so moved and devastated and proud of what your committee did.

I think it made a huge difference for the reasons you say, for the education it gave us, and absolutely for what it led the DOJ to do, the evidence that was collected. One of the most brilliant things about it too is that almost what ninety eight percent of the people testifying were Republicans, which was huge. I think it motivated voters. I think you don't have what happened in twenty twenty two without the January sixth hearing. And it doesn't mean that it convinced Republicans. It means that it motivated the rest of us who were so moved and devastated and proud of what your committee did.

Yeah, thank you, And I'm going to tell you. So everybody knows the details of what we did, but I'll share you with you a little insight and I talk about it a little bit in the book, which is just it was like God himself put the right people in that committee because each of us had like a unique skill set that we needed for that moment. Liz Cheney is a dogged like she's a dog on a bone. She's not gonna let go, and she is like was obsessed with this the whole time the rest of us had families. She just like lived in the vault learning this information and she could put it together because she's a lawyer and a good scholar on that. You know. Benny Thompson like, it is very rare to find somebody, particularly a chairman of a committee, who was willing to let other people get the spotlight, and he did that with Liz. We needed that we needed his calm leadership. You know, Jamie Reskin annoys everybody because they'll tell you how much he knows, but he knows a ton, right, so he brings that. You know, I was paying attention to the right wing conspiracy theories, so I was able to come in and share, like, we have to address the Ray Epps issue. If you don't know the REEPS issue, then count yourself blessed. But if you're listening to Fox News or something, they all know Ray Epps. And so everybody brought these unique things. It was a moment that has never happened before. It will never happen again, unfortunately, but it was such a historic moment and we all got along and a really quick funny quip. Immediately determined to dub Adam shiff as Adam Senior, and I dubbed myself Adam Junior because I wanted to make the age joke, and it stuck the whole time in the committee.

Yeah, thank you, And I'm going to tell you. So everybody knows the details of what we did, but I'll share you with you a little insight and I talk about it a little bit in the book, which is just it was like God himself put the right people in that committee because each of us had like a unique skill set that we needed for that moment. Liz Cheney is a dogged like she's a dog on a bone. She's not gonna let go, and she is like was obsessed with this the whole time the rest of us had families. She just like lived in the vault learning this information and she could put it together because she's a lawyer and a good scholar on that. You know. Benny Thompson like, it is very rare to find somebody, particularly a chairman of a committee, who was willing to let other people get the spotlight, and he did that with Liz. We needed that we needed his calm leadership. You know, Jamie Reskin annoys everybody because they'll tell you how much he knows, but he knows a ton, right, so he brings that. You know, I was paying attention to the right wing conspiracy theories, so I was able to come in and share, like, we have to address the Ray Epps issue. If you don't know the REEPS issue, then count yourself blessed. But if you're listening to Fox News or something, they all know Ray Epps. And so everybody brought these unique things. It was a moment that has never happened before. It will never happen again, unfortunately, but it was such a historic moment and we all got along and a really quick funny quip. Immediately determined to dub Adam shiff as Adam Senior, and I dubbed myself Adam Junior because I wanted to make the age joke, and it stuck the whole time in the committee.

That's funny.

That's funny.

I'm sure. I'm sure he really appreciated that.

I'm sure. I'm sure he really appreciated that.

He tried to fight back against it a couple of times and then he just went with it.

He tried to fight back against it a couple of times and then he just went with it.

So Kevin McCarthy obviously is pushed out. Jim Jordan doesn't get it. It's just sort of this clown car of potential speakers until finally Mike Johnson gets it, and he's an election denier.

So Kevin McCarthy obviously is pushed out. Jim Jordan doesn't get it. It's just sort of this clown car of potential speakers until finally Mike Johnson gets it, and he's an election denier.

Yeah, and he's worse.

Yeah, and he's worse.

But yeah, I think you call him an insurrectionist in a suit. Maybe. Is that something that you said, Adam or Yeah?

But yeah, I think you call him an insurrectionist in a suit. Maybe. Is that something that you said, Adam or Yeah?

I said, he's Jim Jordan with a jacket. And then I told somebody who said publicly what I said, which is he's Jim Jordan and drag.

I said, he's Jim Jordan with a jacket. And then I told somebody who said publicly what I said, which is he's Jim Jordan and drag.

You said he was a well dressed insurrectionist.

You said he was a well dressed insurrectionist.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. He So look every if you look back at the arguments being made to not certify the election by any member of Congress, they all cited Mike Johnson, who was a constitutional quote unquote, you know lawyer, and they cite his arguments. He's the one that obviously initiated the Amicas brief so members of Congress could sign on to the Texas lawsuit, which is the first thing, the first attempt to throw out these legitimate votes cast by place like Michigan. And his scary thing is he speaks well, he looks good, he looks like a very polished politician, and he is the chief insurrectionist of the House. He doesn't get the credit that Jim Jordan does because Jim Jordan was louder. But Mike Johnson is the reason that some of these lawsuits and stuff went forward. So yeah, I'm extremely worried that he's there. I mean, it's just not good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. He So look every if you look back at the arguments being made to not certify the election by any member of Congress, they all cited Mike Johnson, who was a constitutional quote unquote, you know lawyer, and they cite his arguments. He's the one that obviously initiated the Amicas brief so members of Congress could sign on to the Texas lawsuit, which is the first thing, the first attempt to throw out these legitimate votes cast by place like Michigan. And his scary thing is he speaks well, he looks good, he looks like a very polished politician, and he is the chief insurrectionist of the House. He doesn't get the credit that Jim Jordan does because Jim Jordan was louder. But Mike Johnson is the reason that some of these lawsuits and stuff went forward. So yeah, I'm extremely worried that he's there. I mean, it's just not good.

What does that portend for the House and what will it mean in general for legislation.

What does that portend for the House and what will it mean in general for legislation.

Well, I think first off, it means the House isn't going to do much. I think, you know, we've got to get through this government shutdown that's coming up, which I think the government will shut down, but I don't know how long. Inevitably it has to end. But I worry about what it means for aid for Israel and Ukraine, particularly Ukraine. I think they'll get aid for Israel regardless, but Ukraine to me is really the fight of our generation right now. Now. Mike is as indicated that you know, he's open to putting aid on the floor. That's good, I'll give him that, but he's also said like maybe it's months away, and the fact that he's going to pay for the Israel aid of ten billion by cutting the IRS. It'll be interesting to see how he pays for the one hundred billion or sixty billion in a to Ukraine. And by the way, just a real quick point, most people don't realize when you talk about like sixty billion to Ukraine, it's not like taxpayer money. A little bit of that is a lot of it is old equipment that we were going to destroy, like the a tackms that we were getting ready to destroy that are being replaced anyway we send to Ukraine and we have to put a price tag on it. We have to value that. That's what a lot of that money is. Cluster munitions, for instance, we gave Ukraine. In fact, they're very effective. I know they're controversial, but they're very effective for Ukraine's war. Those were all set to be destroyed because we were going to get rid of cluster munitions. But we have to put a value on that. That's just a quick aside that I think people I don't know too much on that.